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Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;17
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Anti-Racism Leadership Institute Research and Practice podcast. Today we have the opportunity to talk with Doctor Richard Ingersoll about his decades of research on the teaching profession. Doctor Ingersoll is a professor of education and sociology at the University of Pennsylvania. His research focuses on the character of elementary and secondary schools as workplaces, teachers and as employees, and teaching as a profession.
00;00;26;20 - 00;00;43;17
Speaker 1
And also, I've been following doctoring results research for decades. Ever since I was an undergraduate at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1996. And so this is sort of a dream come true to speak to the professor who I've been following for like decades. So welcome to the show.
00;00;43;20 - 00;00;46;09
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me, Tracy. I appreciate it.
00;00;46;14 - 00;01;02;13
Speaker 1
Wonderful. So I know that you have some background at practice, right? You used to be a classroom teacher. Can you tell us a little bit about that transition from the classroom into academia? And why did you choose to study teaching? Like how do you even get interested in that as a topic?
00;01;02;17 - 00;01;04;04
Speaker 2
It is part of my story.
00;01;04;04 - 00;01;10;05
Speaker 2
all I ever wanted to be was a high school history teacher, and in fact, I became that at some point after college.
00;01;10;05 - 00;01;11;13
Speaker 2
And I first
00;01;11;13 - 00;01;13;10
Speaker 2
was a teacher in Western Canada.
00;01;13;10 - 00;01;22;29
Speaker 2
out in the West Coast after college, and I taught there for a couple years, got a teaching certificate in in a Canadian university in Vancouver.
00;01;23;05 - 00;01;28;19
Speaker 2
And then I moved east. I moved back to Pennsylvania, in Delaware and got a teaching job.
00;01;28;19 - 00;01;31;00
Speaker 2
And boy, did I have a comeuppance.
00;01;31;00 - 00;01;36;27
Speaker 2
teaching was far better in Canada than in the U.S., or at least in the U.S. at the schools I taught it.
00;01;37;10 - 00;01;48;22
Speaker 2
And this was this was puzzling, like, what's going on here? You know, whether it was salaries or respect or resources or this issue of having voice into decision making, having autonomy in the classroom,
00;01;48;22 - 00;01;54;04
Speaker 2
professional development, any, any characteristic, somehow as a job, it was better.
00;01;54;04 - 00;02;00;09
Speaker 2
And I thought, okay. And I taught in both public and private schools in, in this area.
00;02;00;09 - 00;02;04;29
Speaker 2
I was really puzzled and I wasn't particularly happy. It was a rough job.
00;02;04;29 - 00;02;10;26
Speaker 2
I've been a high school teacher, you know? I mean, just the discipline issues. You know, you have a 17 year old or,
00;02;10;26 - 00;02;13;22
Speaker 2
in your face, to be blunt.
00;02;13;25 - 00;02;14;13
Speaker 2
So
00;02;14;13 - 00;02;22;01
Speaker 2
I eventually quit and I thought, well, I like to teach. I want to teach bigger kids who are better. But, hey, this is how.
00;02;22;04 - 00;02;25;08
Speaker 2
So I, I went and got a PhD and became a
00;02;25;08 - 00;02;44;08
Speaker 2
professor. And sure enough, I teach bigger kids who are better, but. So that's sort of my biography, how I came to this and in my PhD, you had to pick an area and of course, the area I was really interested in trying to understand went back to these questions.
00;02;44;08 - 00;02;45;04
Speaker 2
What?
00;02;45;09 - 00;03;07;29
Speaker 2
What is it with the job in the U.S.? Well, what's it like in other types of schools, and how good or bad is it? And, what's it like? And if it's worse in Canada, then how did this how did this happen? How did schools get to be such twirly set up and manage workplaces just just as a job?
00;03;07;29 - 00;03;13;18
Speaker 2
It was it seemed nuts to me. So I've been actually trying to answer those questions ever since.
00;03;13;18 - 00;03;36;10
Speaker 1
Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for that, that brief history. And I'm glad that you're a practitioner who's turned to in academia. Not that just folks who are just academics aren't useful, but you have on the ground experience in terms of what it was like in the field, right? It gives you a different perspective. And and just for folks to understand sort of the dichotomy between teaching at Canada and teaching here, I did teach abroad for a year as well, in a different country that was not Canada.
00;03;36;12 - 00;03;38;17
Speaker 1
And yeah, The Prestige was a lot different.
00;03;38;22 - 00;03;51;19
Speaker 1
But can you give a couple examples, just like so folks can bring to life what just what was so personal development, working conditions, what was so much better about Canada system and with relation to the US system for teachers?
00;03;52;16 - 00;03;57;08
Speaker 2
There was two things. One was the degree of counseling.
00;03;57;08 - 00;04;16;28
Speaker 2
in Canada, it was pretty harmonious. Teachers, students, administrators in the U.S., in my schools, these were worlds of conflict. There was there was all kinds of issues between teachers and students. I mean, half of your job was just dealing with misbehaving teenagers.
00;04;17;04 - 00;04;44;11
Speaker 2
There was all kinds of distrust and tension between teachers and administrators. Then there was different factions and fighting within teachers. I mean, I was sort of struck by the, the it was a it was a workplace with a lot of conflict. The second thing that hit me was this issue of having, autonomy and voice, being a professional who's an expert, having to have input into decision making that impact your job.
00;04;44;11 - 00;04;49;22
Speaker 2
And teachers had no say. We're just we're just our job is to implement.
00;04;49;22 - 00;04;54;08
Speaker 2
And of course, you know, the history of school reform is the history of failure.
00;04;55;02 - 00;05;11;22
Speaker 2
And so that those two things that conflict and sort of the voice issues really took me back. And I kind of thought, well, I just must have, you know, gotten unlucky and got into top schools. And so hence, what's it like elsewhere became my life. Pat.
00;05;11;25 - 00;05;30;29
Speaker 1
Yeah, let's go on to that conflict. Peace, right. Because we see this in private industry. You know, we see this in non-profits, which we work with a lot of non-profits. We see the same sort of climate issues. Right. And we see that also in some schools. So what do you think is sort of the root cause.
00;05;30;29 - 00;05;50;04
Speaker 1
Right. And not that there's one. Right. But what do you think is 1 or 2 of the root causes of why there's this of course there's a hierarchy. Right. That that sort of naturally lends itself to distrust. But, you know, some principals have transcended that. Some schools are harmonious. Right. And
00;05;50;04 - 00;05;51;21
Speaker 1
what do you think the source of it is?
00;05;51;24 - 00;05;55;28
Speaker 1
And what do you think the solution is to make schools writ large, more harmonious?
00;05;55;29 - 00;06;04;11
Speaker 2
mean one of the things is that elementary secondary teaching is not a particularly well respected line of work in this country.
00;06;04;11 - 00;06;14;13
Speaker 2
No, teaching is not a profession in the sense that it doesn't have the characteristics of, you know, medicine, academia, law, dentistry, architecture, accounting.
00;06;14;13 - 00;06;44;01
Speaker 2
It doesn't have the respect, the paid training, the voice, these other sorts of things. Teachers are not viewed as real experts often, and this is a societal kind of thing. And of course, when you start to study teaching in other nations, you quickly find out, gosh, there's some places, you know, Finland, Switzerland, Korea, a Singapore, etc., where it's a very highly esteemed, well-paid, well-trained occupation.
00;06;44;03 - 00;07;02;20
Speaker 2
So that's one issue that, you know, you go to some party and someone would chat with you and they said, what are you doing? You same high school teacher that got cheese. Why would you want to do that? Or, you know, you seem like a smart guy. Why are you doing that? And you I mean, what do you say I, I would be taken aback.
00;07;02;27 - 00;07;11;12
Speaker 2
I mean, let's face it, what's more important in a culture in a society than education and in teachers?
00;07;11;12 - 00;07;15;08
Speaker 2
mean, to me, one of the big things is kind of the stature, the respect,
00;07;15;08 - 00;07;20;09
Speaker 2
the status of this line of work. And that's a long standing cultural issue.
00;07;20;21 - 00;07;41;16
Speaker 2
And, and the other thing, which I've said a couple times I'm very interested in is the interest, the issue of voice. And having said that, if you respect it, I mean, this is one of the hallmarks of the established professions. They're the experts. They have a say in their workplace, in their job, in their work. And and teaching often doesn't have that.
00;07;41;16 - 00;07;43;18
Speaker 2
I mean, that's what I discovered.
00;07;43;18 - 00;07;57;29
Speaker 2
teaching unfortunately, is not a hugely respected line of work in this nation. And boy, of course, I discovered that when I became a professor. My gosh, it's like going from night to day
00;07;58;05 - 00;08;01;09
Speaker 2
You know, all of a sudden you just are treated
00;08;01;09 - 00;08;20;13
Speaker 2
with more. I'm the same guy overnight. You're treated with whether it's the real estate agent or your family or people you meet, all you're a professor, you know, sort of thing. And I think that's great. But why? Why teachers? So less of that.
00;08;20;15 - 00;08;21;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, it's such
00;08;21;22 - 00;08;37;29
Speaker 1
a hard job. I started out I was only an elementary school teacher. I never went to high school. I was high school principal, middle school vice principal. But I taught pre-K in fourth grade. Right. Hardest job I have ever had in my life was being a classroom teacher. Even though only 180 days older, it might as well be 365 days, right?
00;08;37;29 - 00;08;57;24
Speaker 1
Because it's put in that many hours. And so what do you think in terms of okay, okay, there's a societal perception of teachers as not being prestigious. And again, we're not treated as such. Right. And that's historical. And there's are ways in which schools can function right to still value teachers. You know you know it's and we're going to get into the voice thing in a minute.
00;08;57;26 - 00;09;27;07
Speaker 1
But what how could schools create sort of the microcosm in which there is value right in the for, for in the teacher profession, within the school, within their community. Have you seen anything out there where, because of the broad societal, you know, trope of teachers, are there protecting protective strategies to either school leaders or groups of teachers put together to sort of ratify their prestige so that they feel that they are in a profession, that they want to stay for a long time.
00;09;27;07 - 00;09;54;04
Speaker 2
The thing that I follow a lot and I think it I think it can work well towards improving the lot of teachers again, is this issue of voice. So and this is not a new issue. We've had reforms. You can read the history way back in the 1920s. People are saying, well, listen, instead of just being treated like factory workers, these teachers should be like professionals and they should be at some input.
00;09;54;06 - 00;10;19;10
Speaker 2
It's not like they need necessarily need to run the show us some input. So it's not a new issue. We've had decades, you know, teacher empowerment and psych based management, school based reform and teacher leadership. We've had all these different reforms really. They at heart, they're all about giving teachers more, say more voice in the key decisions in the building that impact their work.
00;10;19;12 - 00;10;47;27
Speaker 2
And a lot of times those reforms haven't worked. I mean, you cannot it's hard to get schools and school districts and the whole bureaucracy to change. There is a genre of reform over the last decade and a half that I really like, and I can see that it can be successful. It's very interesting. It's where teachers lead and run a school.
00;10;47;29 - 00;11;19;14
Speaker 2
It's modeled after the partnerships that lawyers or accountants have where the professionals, it's their it's their organization, it's their firm. They make the decisions and they're accountable. And so if you take that model and apply it, elementary secondary schools where the teachers are running, they're still accountable. But they they make key decisions in the building. In other words, it does away with the boss worker model, which is which is the standard in schools.
00;11;19;17 - 00;11;40;26
Speaker 2
And it's more of a professional model where you have to just collect decision making. It's it's very interesting to me. I had just sort of inadvertently found out about it about a decade and a half ago. And it's mostly in the Midwest. This small but growing movement sometimes charter schools are these schools that where the teachers have a major voice.
00;11;40;29 - 00;12;03;18
Speaker 2
Sometimes they'll have a principal that they actually hire that that does it, ministry of stuff. But again, it's like a law firm. They might hire someone to do administrative work. But those those lawyers, those partners, it's their show. They own it. So, you know, that's a small reform. It's a growing they have a national movement now on a website and conferences.
00;12;03;21 - 00;12;27;10
Speaker 2
To me, that's a very promising reform. And it's the most, you know, there's all kinds of attempts to professionalize teaching. And of course, we're talking about that. It hasn't had a high status as a profession. And this is sort of to me, the I don't want to say extreme, but, sort of an example of trying to really professionalizing this line of work.
00;12;28;19 - 00;12;45;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. I want to sort of introduce a new paradigm to for discussion around the utility of teachers. Right. Because there's a line of thinking, you know, around the system was designed this way. It's not an ax and it's not broken. Right? It was designed this way purposefully. Those who knew to get educated get educated, and those who don't, who don't, they don't.
00;12;46;02 - 00;13;06;07
Speaker 1
And also, we need a hierarchy within our society because we can't let everyone graduate high school, go to college, and graduate. That does not fit within our social order, right? And capitalism just doesn't work, right. So we need folks to be cooled out enough to accept their low paying jobs. We need that because a majority of what makes our society work are these low paying, blue-collar jobs right.
00;13;06;09 - 00;13;12;04
Speaker 1
So what is your thought around that is designed this way? And we actually need schools to reform this way?
00;13;12;17 - 00;13;43;05
Speaker 2
Well, okay. Now you're talking about sort of the functions. As for our students, one of the purposes here, what how much education do we want to give them. Now of course, what you say is true historically there's a whole argument. Well, the economy's changed. There's a whole lot more knowledge work. There's all kinds of technical jobs. And the old system where, you know, barely literate high school graduates could fill all these factory jobs.
00;13;43;08 - 00;14;06;09
Speaker 2
The argument is that economy is no more, and it's changed. And so that there's there's need for a far more cognitive thinking, critical thinking. But, you know, whether they're going to college or not, that I mean, my son became an electrician. He deals with all these computers. It's really complicated and sophisticated way beyond me. You know, he went to trade school and he learned all that.
00;14;06;09 - 00;14;35;09
Speaker 2
It's not simple work. It's also, well, pay. And this is someone who is a special needs special ed student. And now he's got this job where no a high school education was certainly would not be enough for that type of work. It's sophisticated, it's complicated. It's all this computer stuff. So the argument is that our economy is changed and the school system needs to change along with it.
00;14;35;11 - 00;15;00;25
Speaker 2
And we need to produce, you know, you know, whether you go to college and we need to produce folks that can take these much more technical, sophisticated types of jobs. Not that there's not manual labor there is. But, you know, with AI, that's still going to lessen, etc.. So those are the arguments that you that you need to as far as what you're offering to the
00;15;00;25 - 00;15;04;00
Speaker 2
students needs to be upgraded and change.
00;15;04;03 - 00;15;25;11
Speaker 1
I agree, I agree absolutely right. And that then, you know, before we get into the teacher diversity question, right, because this is the one where I really want to get into, what that means, how it manifests and is is it even useful. Right. Which is the the foundational question. I just want to talk about the utility. These sort of your standard teacher, right.
00;15;25;17 - 00;15;46;00
Speaker 1
Teaching fresh in the schoolhouse. And I liken it to a case study that I read way back to my doctoral program that talked about this ice making company in Wisconsin. I'm from Wisconsin. And when refrigeration came out, you had this ice making company that was very lucrative. They provided ice to all upstate Wisconsin and Illinois and, you know, so they were super lucrative.
00;15;46;00 - 00;16;08;00
Speaker 1
They made a lot of, money, offer their ice making, business. Right. Because they had frozen lakes and they would, you know, cut the ice and ship it out. Now, when refrigeration came out, what did they do? They didn't twist your technology to then incorporate refrigeration into their model. What they did is they doubled down on making more ice, right.
00;16;08;03 - 00;16;31;00
Speaker 1
And sort of expanding as as her ice depreciated as it need for that ice was less and less. They decided to keep, you know, sourcing more ice in different places. Right. Until eventually they went under because they were antiquated, right? Refrigeration was going to outlast, any need for frozen ice because it just simply didn't exist. Right. And so to what aspect are we the ice company?
00;16;31;00 - 00;16;45;20
Speaker 1
We're we're seeking to push out more and more traditional teachers where society is actually changing. And I argue that the last place the student would go, I know my son is 22 right now. If I ask him, you know, if you want to learn something new, I think the last place he would say, go sit in the classroom, right.
00;16;45;26 - 00;16;53;13
Speaker 1
There's all these other places where he would actually go to learn something than go to a teacher.
00;16;53;16 - 00;17;34;04
Speaker 2
Well, yes, I guess there's truth to that. And in all kinds of professions, they all say, you know, once they get on the job, they start to learn a whole lot more than they did, whether it's law school or medical school or whatever. There's truth to that. But on the other hand, on the other hand, to me, one of the lessons of the pandemic was that remote teaching only goes so far, particularly with the younger students saying to me, I think this is maybe an under-recognized lesson, which is that you need that human being in front of those students, that they make a difference.
00;17;34;07 - 00;17;43;26
Speaker 2
And I know that, you know, there's all kinds of variants of remote education. Some are much better than others. And you read about it all the time. That's not new, by the way. We've been hearing
00;17;43;26 - 00;17;54;25
Speaker 2
since we were kids that technology is going to remake the education. I mean, when I was a kid, it was educational television, which, by the way, was so boring.
00;17;54;27 - 00;18;17;01
Speaker 2
And when I was sick, my mother made me watch it. Well, the technology just progressed, okay, but still, there seems to be a need for that teacher in front of students. So back to your question. The utility to me, that was borne out with the pandemic that I mean, the learning loss that students had because of that, because of, you know, shutting down schools.
00;18;17;04 - 00;18;44;25
Speaker 2
Right. The second thing answer I did to your great question is ask any person, how many teachers did you have that really impacted you, and then talk about that everyone. It'll be very few, which is telling. They, you know, it'll be less than five, maybe. And they'll talk about it moving like the typical you go, well, the friend or family member, you ask them where someone really impacted them.
00;18;44;25 - 00;19;12;08
Speaker 2
In third grade and sixth grade and 12th grade as a as a junior in college and made a huge difference in their life. I mean, it's really interesting to hear those stories and you're thinking, okay, okay, you know, that's not from a book, that's not from, whatever, job site. That's not from experience, that's from interaction with some that really terrific teacher, which is so hard to do that work.
00;19;12;08 - 00;19;27;24
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, what a, what a, what a sophisticated set of our craft science skills to be a really good teacher. But boy, does it seem to make a difference. No, that's just anecdotal, but. So I see utility for
00;19;27;24 - 00;19;29;28
Speaker 2
teachers.
00;19;30;00 - 00;19;51;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I think there is a utility there still. Of course, you know the holders of knowledge because it, they, they sort of they teach more than just know how to spell and how to read and, you know, how to do math. Right. Is it is a certain amount of sort of cultural norms and societal norms that teachers teach because of subjects out there that they, sort of are in charge of teaching.
00;19;51;05 - 00;20;13;03
Speaker 1
And the question is still sort of remains, because we opened up Pandora's box, we were sort of forced to, remote learning, right, of going the route of, oh, wow, we did not have students in a traditional classroom in front of us. Right? And it was wide open. It was hard, right? Because as you say, that, there's a movement for teachers to sort of own the curriculum and create their own schools that have more voice.
00;20;13;09 - 00;20;21;00
Speaker 1
And what I've seen over time as sort of a charter schools is that we often just replicate the same system right in, in, in a slightly different way.
00;20;21;07 - 00;20;49;15
Speaker 2
Well, you're right, and maybe that's a return to the old stuff, which doesn't work very well. All the other hand, certainly a lot of the remote didn't work very well. I mean, I'm still puzzled. How could you get an elementary school, a middle school kid, to sit down at the kitchen table and sit there in front of their laptop and stay engaged for four hours, five hours?
00;20;49;15 - 00;21;10;26
Speaker 2
I, I'm not actually sure how it worked, how you could get to how how you could get remote. I found it toughened up teaching graduate students. You know you have some remote two hour. We're longer. Session. I had to, you know, I had to force them to be engaged. I mean, you know, because engagement is the key to get students to learn.
00;21;10;26 - 00;21;33;11
Speaker 2
There has to be engagement. And I. I just I'm puzzled as to how the young kids, how remote. I'm sure there's a way of doing it which does get engagement and does work, but in many cases it doesn't seem to work very well at all. And so you go back to the tried and true. Now, your point about charter schools.
00;21;33;11 - 00;21;43;00
Speaker 2
Yes, charters, we're going to be the window of innovation. Sometimes yes, and often no. It's like well I think we've seen to for, for, for.
00;21;43;01 - 00;21;47;09
Speaker 1
We completed schooling with learning, which that's not the way it has to exist.
00;21;47;09 - 00;21;47;16
Speaker 1
Right?
00;21;47;16 - 00;21;50;27
Speaker 1
But we have a three year old and you said you have a son.
00;21;50;29 - 00;22;02;26
Speaker 1
And we see how our kids learn. I will watch my daughter and see how she functions in the within our house. Like she'll go to this activity. She go to that activity when she wants me as a teacher, she'll come and ask,
00;22;02;26 - 00;22;09;23
Speaker 1
but when she figures it out, she's on her own again, right? And she switches from activity to activity and she has very little screen time.
00;22;09;25 - 00;22;27;06
Speaker 1
But when she does have screen time, she loves Bluey. She wants some Bluey. There's some Sesame Street right. That a little bit of this a little bit of that. And she'll go back to playing. Right. And I'm there as a guide. I don't interact with her a lot, but she learns so, so much. I think there was an opportunity if we just gave it an actual chat.
00;22;27;06 - 00;22;35;15
Speaker 1
I think us adults, you're so uncomfortable with remote learning that we never gave it a chance to take hold. It really change the paradigm.
00;22;35;17 - 00;22;55;07
Speaker 2
I think you're right, and I hope you're right in a sense. I mean, if we could use technology to revolutionize schooling so it becomes closer to learning, you know, in schools of education forever, we've been talking about the Holy Grail as student centered learning,
00;22;55;07 - 00;23;12;29
Speaker 2
you know, there's this there's sort of the ideal and student centered learning might be what you're taught. Yeah. Her she's following her muse and she's learning all kinds of things, and she's engaged and she's motivated. And that's I think that's the core student center and learning.
00;23;12;29 - 00;23;24;05
Speaker 2
So if you could just take what your daughter's doing and create a school that fosters that, I think you're going to do it. I think that's going to be wonderful.
00;23;24;07 - 00;23;37;14
Speaker 1
Oh, I'm delighted. That prestigious Doctor Ingersoll, he's been doing this research for decades. Right. He's a bastion of knowledge, right at the Fort Knox of knowledge about how to make the teaching profession better. That's what that's what I waiting for.
00;23;37;16 - 00;23;45;29
Speaker 2
Yes. Well, you know, to me, the simple answer is you improve that job. You make it more like a profession.
00;23;45;29 - 00;23;54;22
Speaker 1
with do this idea of diversity, and this is something where, you know, you're more recent research is around, and have a lot of questions around that.
00;23;54;25 - 00;24;00;11
Speaker 1
Because if we talk about racial diversity, because that's what we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about racial diversity, right?
00;24;00;11 - 00;24;11;26
Speaker 1
that when we think about the there was a preponderance of black teachers pre brown pre 1959. There were hundreds of tens of thousands.
00;24;11;26 - 00;24;13;00
Speaker 1
of black educators
00;24;13;00 - 00;24;14;26
Speaker 1
And then post 59, you
00;24;14;26 - 00;24;36;15
Speaker 1
know, with the passage of the decree did desegregate. That's we had a large influx of white women teachers who came in and started filling these positions previously occupied by black teachers, under the impetus act one. If we're going to have a, integrated school, most of the white parents didn't want their children having black teachers.
00;24;36;17 - 00;24;37;22
Speaker 1
And that also,
00;24;37;22 - 00;24;40;24
Speaker 1
when they they began to impart these,
00;24;40;24 - 00;24;42;18
Speaker 1
qualification standards
00;24;42;18 - 00;24;49;27
Speaker 1
on a lot of these black schools, the black teachers didn't even have access to even be be credentialed. And so they instantly lost their jobs.
00;24;49;27 - 00;24;55;28
Speaker 1
And so we had tens of thousands of black educators that were erased from the classroom. They left the legacy.
00;24;56;00 - 00;25;00;11
Speaker 1
And now there's a more contemporary thought. Well, we needed to diversify,
00;25;00;11 - 00;25;09;14
Speaker 1
And so where are you at in your thinking about educator diversity? And one, it's utility. And to how we get there.
00;25;09;14 - 00;25;20;07
Speaker 2
That utility is something I haven't studied, but there's a lot of research on that. And there's very good studies. To me, these same common sense that,
00;25;20;07 - 00;25;23;12
Speaker 2
having a teacher that looks like you
00;25;23;12 - 00;25;26;23
Speaker 2
has maybe similar background to you, that there's a value in that,
00;25;26;23 - 00;25;28;25
Speaker 2
there's an argument of role models.
00;25;28;27 - 00;25;39;00
Speaker 2
Black kids need to see some black male teachers in particular as role models, etc.. So there's some really good arguments to diversify the teaching force,
00;25;39;00 - 00;25;40;11
Speaker 2
because that basic
00;25;40;11 - 00;25;45;09
Speaker 2
the basic finding is, is that the teaching force doesn't look like America.
00;25;45;09 - 00;25;50;02
Speaker 2
And you're right, this started in a big way back with desegregation.
00;25;50;02 - 00;25;53;09
Speaker 2
And you had this. You had teachers that, you know,
00;25;53;09 - 00;25;55;21
Speaker 2
black teachers have lost their jobs.
00;25;55;23 - 00;26;02;06
Speaker 2
So that was quite a while ago. But since then there's been this there is this what we call the, you know, the parity got
00;26;02;06 - 00;26;09;17
Speaker 2
the percentage of students who are of color, minority students is greater than the percentage of teachers. And so we have this gap.
00;26;09;17 - 00;26;11;20
Speaker 2
What I've done research on is,
00;26;11;20 - 00;26;12;14
Speaker 2
has it changed?
00;26;12;14 - 00;26;22;22
Speaker 2
Has it gotten worse? Has it gotten better? What is the gap and what has happened to the diversification, if anything, over time of the teaching force
00;26;22;22 - 00;26;26;09
Speaker 2
Because what happens? I was in this meeting, this is 15 years ago,
00;26;26;09 - 00;26;27;25
Speaker 2
and there was a bunch of people
00;26;27;25 - 00;26;32;06
Speaker 2
brought together by a foundation on this topic, diversity in that teaching.
00;26;32;08 - 00;26;50;29
Speaker 2
Linda Darling Hammond and Gloria Latz and Billings and Jackie Irvine and people that had really done good work in that topic. And I was invited there and people said, look. So, Richard, we have all this debate that it's good to diversify the teaching force. But, you know, no one actually has looked at what is the state of things.
00;26;50;29 - 00;26;56;10
Speaker 2
How has it changed over time? Has it got better? Has it gotten worse? Can you take on this project, Richard?
00;26;56;10 - 00;27;03;02
Speaker 2
we started to do this research and just to sort of find out what's the portrait.
00;27;03;02 - 00;27;08;02
Speaker 2
how do you support, how diversified is the teaching force. And has that changed for better or worse? So
00;27;08;02 - 00;27;10;00
Speaker 2
that's what we didn't work on. And
00;27;10;00 - 00;27;11;29
Speaker 2
discovered very interesting things,
00;27;11;29 - 00;27;14;11
Speaker 2
some of the good news and some good bad news.
00;27;14;11 - 00;27;17;14
Speaker 2
And I can run through some of those findings if you'd like.
00;27;17;24 - 00;27;20;06
Speaker 1
Now, that would be wonderful because I've done some research.
00;27;20;06 - 00;27;38;21
Speaker 1
About student teacher matching, right. A how students are matched with teachers and the quality of teacher based on, student success and also student academic ability and student rates. Right. And what we found in our study on a small scale, as it was found on a large scale, is that if you're a low income black or brown students, you're more likely to have a less experienced teacher.
00;27;38;27 - 00;27;40;13
Speaker 1
That's just what it looks like, right?
00;27;40;14 - 00;27;54;11
Speaker 2
Yes, yes. There's no question. There's a quality that the quality of teachers, the qualification teachers is what we call now distributed and varies across different types of students. And there's definitely equity issues there.
00;27;54;11 - 00;27;57;05
Speaker 2
look, here's in a nutshell what we found one.
00;27;57;05 - 00;28;06;11
Speaker 2
Of course there continues to be a parity gap that is, the percentage of kids from marginalized racial ethnic groups is a greater percentage of teachers.
00;28;06;11 - 00;28;08;14
Speaker 2
Okay. But
00;28;08;14 - 00;28;16;21
Speaker 2
There's actually been a huge increase over the last three decades in the numbers of teachers of color.
00;28;16;21 - 00;28;22;09
Speaker 2
It's sort of under-recognized. No, we don't have parity, but there's been this big,
00;28;22;09 - 00;28;31;13
Speaker 2
big increase. And to some extent, it shouldn't be a surprise, because starting back in the 1980s, there's been a lot of
00;28;31;13 - 00;28;34;14
Speaker 2
recruitment initiatives for teachers of color.
00;28;34;19 - 00;28;55;28
Speaker 2
Ford Foundation put $60 million into this. Two thirds of the states have what was called minority teacher recruitment initiatives, etc. so, and and they seem to have succeeded. There's been a big increase and it's interesting that increase has also been uneven.
00;28;55;28 - 00;28;58;00
Speaker 2
And this is a puzzle.
00;28;58;00 - 00;28;59;26
Speaker 2
so for instance,
00;28;59;26 - 00;29;09;06
Speaker 2
Hispanic Latino teachers have gone up over the last 30 years by over 400%, a massive increase.
00;29;09;08 - 00;29;32;11
Speaker 2
White teachers have gone up less than 50%. Hispanic Latino, over 400%. This huge increase in Asian teachers, over 300% increase big increases. So no, we don't have parity. But but there's been there's actually been some improvement here. On the other hand, the increase in black teachers has been much, much smaller 24% over the last 30
00;29;32;11 - 00;29;34;28
Speaker 2
years or so.
00;29;35;00 - 00;29;42;02
Speaker 2
So we have this big victory, but it's very uneven. And I hate to say this, I don't know why
00;29;42;02 - 00;29;50;02
Speaker 1
You know, I did similar research around, principal representation. Right. And I think what you found was, well, I in, in your article that I think I saw
00;29;50;02 - 00;29;55;02
Speaker 1
is that the largest increases have been in the most hard to staff schools.
00;29;55;05 - 00;29;58;06
Speaker 1
Right. Which then contributes to the burnout rate.
00;29;58;20 - 00;30;07;03
Speaker 2
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. So yes, certainly I think diversification and, increase.
00;30;07;03 - 00;30;13;03
Speaker 2
But not only is an uneven across racial ethnic groups, it's also uneven across types of schools.
00;30;13;03 - 00;30;31;04
Speaker 2
the vast majority, the increase of teachers of color has been in large urban, higher poverty, more diversified school districts. There's been very, very little increase in diversification of the teaching force in those suburban, more affluent school districts.
00;30;31;04 - 00;30;34;24
Speaker 2
this was actually part of the agenda on the,
00;30;34;24 - 00;30;49;05
Speaker 2
reform front. Let's let's get more teachers of color and let's get them into these harder to schools that are predominantly students of color. And so, in a sense, that was done.
00;30;49;05 - 00;30;53;22
Speaker 2
And the the upshot is, like you said, there's been a much, much bigger increase.
00;30;53;22 - 00;31;05;21
Speaker 2
I mean, the increase in diversity of the teaching force has been in those hard to staff schools. It hasn't been in the other types of schools. So, you know, it's kind of, it's uneven.
00;31;05;29 - 00;31;19;15
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, absolutely. And whatever the goal is, you know, around reaching, as you say, parity. And I want you to speculate here, right, because you haven't done the research yet. So what would you expect to see? Right. Say that we reached parity. Right.
00;31;19;15 - 00;31;24;21
Speaker 1
You know, like in Charlotte-Mecklenburg when they reached unitary status, when they're going to, to get to,
00;31;24;21 - 00;31;26;15
Speaker 1
seek to desegregate.
00;31;26;15 - 00;31;51;26
Speaker 1
Right. Which I've talked with some of those individuals who went to Charlotte-Mecklenburg schools during desegregation. Right. And they talked very specifically around what desegregation did for the quality of education, especially if they were a black student, right? When they went to the the schools that were more affluent, that were had more white students, more white teachers, the quality of instruction, the the resources, the quality of classes were markedly better, but they were just proximate to it because of desegregation.
00;31;51;26 - 00;32;07;24
Speaker 1
Right. So there's a marked difference in their experience. And so say that we reached educator educator parity, right. With the teacher. It's reflecting the population of students who are in our schools. What outcomes would you expect to see possibly?
00;32;07;26 - 00;32;36;12
Speaker 2
Well, the theory, of course, is that the quality of teachers make a difference. And if these students in these, you know, hard to staff schools could get decent teachers and also including teachers that increasingly look like them, then their educational experience would be better, their learning would be better, their educational levels will improve, and their occupational and professional outcomes will improve.
00;32;36;12 - 00;32;38;18
Speaker 2
I mean, that's the that's the logic here
00;32;38;18 - 00;32;58;14
Speaker 1
Descartes. Okay. Wonderful. So I what I heard is recruitment but also with retention. They got to be paired together. Then also, you know, in terms of focusing on teacher quality, right. In order to make sure that these, you know, our new charge towards parity actually results in better outcomes for students, right? Because I mean, because, as you know, first and second year teachers are still learning how to teach, right?
00;32;58;22 - 00;33;02;21
Speaker 1
Teachers reach their best quality years between years three and eight.
00;33;02;21 - 00;33;11;23
Speaker 2
You know, and our research has long shown that there's a lot of quits after just one year. There's a lot of quits in those first five years. Yes.
00;33;11;23 - 00;33;12;04
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00;33;12;04 - 00;33;17;13
Speaker 1
And in, in research and also right now you've come back to this idea of voice. And so what I want to end with is
00;33;17;13 - 00;33;22;05
Speaker 1
you know, folks listening want to know how to animate that. You know, in, in real time, right.
00;33;22;07 - 00;33;24;25
Speaker 1
How does that look during in 180 day school year?
00;33;24;25 - 00;33;29;23
Speaker 1
how do they mobilize that in a way that may increase retention?
00;33;30;01 - 00;33;57;00
Speaker 2
Well, I mentioned earlier this reform out there, these teacher led schools. Now, that's sort of the extreme model, the teachers. And sometimes it's through charter school, sometimes not. Sometimes it's district schools where the teachers really have and they very have a major input, like by definition, in the decision making in the building. And, you know, it's they're held accountable.
00;33;57;00 - 00;34;06;09
Speaker 2
These are always, you know, within an account of environment of state accountability, district accountability. So that's one
00;34;06;09 - 00;34;07;26
Speaker 2
way of getting from A to B.
00;34;07;28 - 00;34;24;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay. So can I, can I say it. So decision making right. There's a lot of decisions that get made right. And so what substantive decisions are you talking about. So I haven't been a principal right. And I talk about the color of the walls. Or am I talking about which classroom you have? What am I talking about here in terms of like, you know, decision making?
00;34;24;01 - 00;34;33;08
Speaker 1
Like what would a an area for a leader be like, all right, I want to lean in. And these are decisions that I'm going to try to impart later. Teacher voice in.
00;34;33;11 - 00;34;35;07
Speaker 2
Okay I'll give some examples.
00;34;35;07 - 00;34;36;19
Speaker 2
So one of them is curriculum.
00;34;36;19 - 00;34;40;03
Speaker 2
So earlier we talked about where you have a standardized curriculum.
00;34;40;03 - 00;34;51;09
Speaker 2
You could call that fair. But on the other hand kids there are students there. And so having some teachers be able to shape that a little bit now, this might not be in the principal's hand.
00;34;51;09 - 00;35;01;17
Speaker 2
This might be coming down from the district or the state. So it may or may not be up to the principal, but okay. We're going to give these teachers more say in the curriculum. But that's one example.
00;35;01;17 - 00;35;13;07
Speaker 2
Another one is the issue of how to deal with student discipline, behavioral issues. So the standard complaint from teachers is that they sort of become police persons,
00;35;13;07 - 00;35;17;10
Speaker 2
And you know that we reached an extreme with the zero tolerance policy so that,
00;35;17;10 - 00;35;20;01
Speaker 2
you know, if a student does this, this happens.
00;35;20;01 - 00;35;23;16
Speaker 2
And again, what about the people on the ground,
00;35;23;16 - 00;35;32;16
Speaker 2
you know, having some discretion as to, you know, what are going to be the rules, has to behavior boundaries and what are going to be the sticks and carrots.
00;35;32;16 - 00;35;34;05
Speaker 2
What are going to be the sanctions?
00;35;34;07 - 00;35;35;01
Speaker 2
is a while back.
00;35;35;01 - 00;35;37;20
Speaker 2
Students, this is the high school students
00;35;37;20 - 00;35;43;09
Speaker 2
take on facts. And one day they started wearing hats to school hats. Okay,
00;35;43;09 - 00;35;50;27
Speaker 2
all these students had hats. Now, these days, maybe it's cell phone use or whatever it is, but there's all these fads that students have.
00;35;50;27 - 00;35;52;26
Speaker 2
So the principal was concerned
00;35;52;26 - 00;36;10;22
Speaker 2
and she met with the vice principal, said, listen, we got this new fad. The students are all wearing hats. And you know, if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile and this could get out of hand. And, you know, we need to we just need to make a standard. I mean, they make a rule that you take off your hat in school, you don't wear it to class,
00;36;10;22 - 00;36;24;14
Speaker 2
They called it. They call it a faculty meeting. They announced it and they said, here's what you know. Here's what you know. The first thing is you get a warning to the student, and then you and then you take away their hats and the debt for the day.
00;36;24;14 - 00;36;43;27
Speaker 2
And then the third infraction, you destroy that or something like that. You can imagine what happened to the faculty. The faculty totally split. It was a group that said, yeah, I'm against these hats, let's do it. There was a group that said, listen, you know, I don't mind the rule, but I wish we'd be consulted. We're just we're just carrying out.
00;36;43;27 - 00;37;04;11
Speaker 2
We're just being police person. Then there was a group that said, listen, I teach math. I could care less if they wear hats. What's that got to do with their learning? So then the faculty has what's called mixed enforcement. You know, if your two parents have different standards with their teenager, you know where that goes. And so the whole place turns into a mess.
00;37;04;13 - 00;37;18;12
Speaker 2
The vice principal became utterly outraged that chunks of the faculty were not enforcing this. He would go in their classrooms and and chew them out in front of the students. And it became a totally tense situation.
00;37;18;12 - 00;37;27;17
Speaker 2
The students quickly perceived that there was mixed enforcement, and they said, well, Mrs. Jones allows me to wear the hat of her classroom, so why are you enforcing it, Mr. Brown?
00;37;27;17 - 00;37;28;13
Speaker 2
Or whatever?
00;37;28;13 - 00;37;43;06
Speaker 2
When I got into the school, a simple little thing wearing hats was all they talked about. It was a school, I have to say, in chaos Over Hats, which might seem silly, but actually it wasn't silly. It was.
00;37;43;06 - 00;37;45;09
Speaker 2
It was a top down decision.
00;37;45;09 - 00;37;46;27
Speaker 2
The teachers
00;37;46;27 - 00;37;49;22
Speaker 2
really would have liked to have had some input into it.
00;37;49;22 - 00;37;50;19
Speaker 2
So
00;37;50;19 - 00;38;01;28
Speaker 2
It's sort of workplace democracy. But in that case, the principal told me, Richard, boy, did I make a mistake. I should have never just unilaterally decided.
00;38;02;03 - 00;38;05;03
Speaker 2
And she said, if I could go back, I'd redo this.
00;38;05;03 - 00;38;07;12
Speaker 2
You know, student behavior
00;38;07;12 - 00;38;08;24
Speaker 2
might seem trivial, but
00;38;08;24 - 00;38;09;11
Speaker 2
it's not.
00;38;09;12 - 00;38;29;17
Speaker 1
Thank you for that. Right. Because we move so fast as leaders, we move so fast. So many decisions. Right. And often we just willfully forget like, oh, everyone's on board with it. Let me just announce it. But what I'm hearing you say is that things as simple as hats, you know, in schools that most people should be on board with, if you make it a unilateral, top down decision that could cause more harm than good.
00;38;29;19 - 00;38;30;14
Speaker 1
Yeah, right.
00;38;30;16 - 00;38;31;14
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00;38;31;14 - 00;38;39;27
Speaker 2
And that was a boy. That was a lesson for that principle. You know, she was she was really sorry.
00;38;39;29 - 00;38;43;02
Speaker 1
It's hard once you ring the bell it's how are the roll out back. Right.
00;38;43;13 - 00;38;44;05
Speaker 2
wonderful.
00;38;44;12 - 00;38;46;09
Speaker 1
It's so granular. Thank you for that,
00;38;46;09 - 00;38;57;08
Speaker 1
Doctor Ingersoll. I'm going to I could talk to you all day because, you know, I've just. I just love what you do. And, like, you're such a bastion of knowledge. But of course, I know where to find your papers. And you can go to Google Scholar and read for days and days and days.
00;38;57;08 - 00;39;18;23
Speaker 1
So this has been a conversation with Doctor Richard Ingersoll. He's, he's a professor of education and sociology at the University of Pennsylvania. You could find his research any and everywhere. If you're on YouTube, you have several talks up. You have other podcasts. Is there anything exciting? I mean, I'm sure there's always exciting stuff coming up. But what what what can we expect next from you?
00;39;18;24 - 00;39;21;21
Speaker 1
What are your current research agenda books, talks?
00;39;21;21 - 00;39;26;05
Speaker 2
Well, I'm working on a couple projects. One is.
00;39;26;05 - 00;39;29;01
Speaker 2
Okay, we've talked a lot about a voice, but the other side
00;39;29;01 - 00;39;43;11
Speaker 2
is accountability. Accountability, which because of No Child Left Behind, I kind of got a bad name and, you know, all kinds of pushback. And that legislation ended and they didn't want it reenacted. But, you know, accountability is is important.
00;39;43;11 - 00;39;47;09
Speaker 2
I'm working on a project of low
00;39;47;09 - 00;39;57;07
Speaker 2
accountability, and teacher voice and empowerment can work together. Do not have to be opposites that the good school has both
00;39;57;07 - 00;39;58;00
Speaker 2
that they're not.
00;39;58;06 - 00;40;01;02
Speaker 2
They're not actually contradictory. They're actually complementary.
00;40;01;02 - 00;40;03;18
Speaker 2
that's something to work, you know, because the
00;40;03;18 - 00;40;09;27
Speaker 2
the whole discussion is, is that these are clashing opposites. You know, you either give them say or you hold them accountable.
00;40;09;27 - 00;40;14;04
Speaker 2
You can't do both. I actually think you can and should do both.
00;40;14;27 - 00;40;27;17
Speaker 1
Well, I can't wait for this. That's awesome. Wonderful. And so this is a new research project that's coming out. When can we expect to sort of, I, I know I can get the Google notice notifications.
00;40;27;19 - 00;40;33;07
Speaker 2
I, I have a chapter coming out the volume. It's a handbook of teachers work.
00;40;33;07 - 00;40;34;23
Speaker 2
I think that's coming out in April.
00;40;34;23 - 00;40;48;03
Speaker 2
We actually look at the data to see is my hypothesis correct? Is that accountability and employee empowerment go hand in hand and the data says yes. So yeah.
00;40;48;06 - 00;41;06;10
Speaker 1
Wonderful. So we're going to put you a link to your website in the show notes for those who are listening, because I find it very interesting, something we talk about a lot in terms of accountability. But thank you for, all the stuff you shared today as well as that piece on Teacher Voice, because I think that's something that, as you say, when it comes to retention, it's not so much salary.
00;41;06;12 - 00;41;20;02
Speaker 1
It's not so much discipline. That voice is really on the top in terms of being able to control things that affect you as a teacher. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you accepting the invitation and look forward to reading your future work.
00;41;20;04 - 00;41;24;06
Speaker 2
Thanks for having me on Tracy. I thoroughly enjoyed it.