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Welcome to the Love, Sex, and Leadership Podcast, where insightful dialogues and transformative teachings await. Join Aaron Kleinerman on a journey to explore the intersections of love, sexuality, and leadership. Through candid conversations with experts and live audio teachings, Aaron creates a safe space for self-discovery and empowerment. Embrace your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive, and heart-centered leader. Dive into the mysteries of the universe and unlock the secrets to mastering the human experience. Tune in and embark on a path of profound transformation.
Welcome to the Sex, Love and Leadership podcast, where you can discover simple tantric teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive, and heart-centered leader. Welcome everyone to Sex, Love and Leadership. This is Aaron Kleinerman. I am in Portugal. I have with me my my friend Spencer Jacobson, who's out in Colorado. Actually met Spencer Jacobson many years back, I think in an A-Fest I was teaching at, and, uh, that's when our worlds collided, and we've kind of known each other in periphery for quite a few years. And coming up in October, we'll be bringing the men's initiation out to Colorado. Spencer Jacobson's a, a leader and a coach and really supporting people. He's a steward of Dance Meets Tantra, which is a really powerful movement. I've seen a moving around a lot in the US. Also some powerful work with, uh, kind of attachment alchemy. And, uh, yeah, nice to have you here, brother. It's good to be here, man. And I, I'm thinking back to that A-Fest. I, I, I was, uh, just a, like, a Padawan back then. And I remember, I remember meeting you and being like, this guy knows some things that I want to know about. This guy knows some things I want to know about that I don't know about, but I want to. And that was a fun— yeah, just, uh, I— that was a fun kind of like little, even just nugget on my awakening path of like, yeah, that guy Aaron. And it just sort of like led me in some, in some cool directions. It's just like a little breadcrumb. Ah, beautiful, beautiful to hear that. Yeah, reminds me of the, the days with Apex and Mindvalley. It's definitely a very different, uh, organism than it was back then. And yeah, some things grow and evolve like any parts of us. So yeah, I'd love to actually hear some of those, um, uh, nuggets for you on your kind of, um, maturing awakening journey. A lot of what we talked about here is this kind of dance between our leadership selves and the journeys that we've been on to be in that role of leader. And, you know, just when we were checking in, you were sharing that leadership is a strong theme in your life right now. And I'd love to hear kind of, you know, some of maybe a couple of the key stepping points along the way that has kind of driven you into where you are now and what's, what's quite strong for you in your leadership journey. Yeah, happy to. Um, there's been, there's been so many, but the one that, the one that immediately comes to mind was, um, was back in, I think it was like 2019 into 2020. And, um, I, at, at that stage in my journey, I was, I was the CEO of a a scalable leadership coaching company. Um, and I was struggling and really close to burnout. Um, I started that company in like my mid-20s or something like that, late 20s. And, um, there was a number of things going on, but one was I realized at that time that kind of like some open sexuality spaces were, were mainly like the only spaces that I wasn't fully comfortable to just be me. And I had found that up until then, everything that I had created, I had started to like lose the aliveness for, and I had started to just like feel more and more like the things would just get more and more rigid and kind of, uh, less fun and less driven. And I started to connect the dots just between my sexuality and just feeling free in my sexuality, alive, able to just express myself and be comfortable with who I am in that way, and my ability to create and my ability to sustainably create in a way that felt joyful to me. I was like, man, I want to feel turned on by what I do. I want to feel turned on by what I do. And that just started to become really clear. And there was a moment, it was after COVID had started, and it was the morning that George Floyd was murdered. And I was like, I looked at my phone. I had been in a prayer about what to do about my company, and I just had this moment of like, if, if like this is just— if like this is the system breaking down, like if it's all just breaking down, if like it's kind of over and we need to start over again, and it's actually going down right now, am I gonna go out like that not fully expressed in who I am and leading a company that I just fucking don't want to do this anymore. And how can I go just find what truth is for me? What is truth for me? And so I did a really hard thing and I like left. I basically took this year plus sabbatical and gave the company to my partners and Um, didn't have a plan, didn't have a ton of money at that time, uh, and just went into an exploration of like, God, please show me what I'm most meant to be doing right now. And that led me into whole lots of erotic, more and more erotic exploration, and, um, kind of blasted me open into everything that I'm up to now. Yeah, beautiful. And I love that you made this kind of distinction between, you know, your, your coaching life and your sex life. And what I heard you share is there, there was almost an, uh, a lack of congruity between the two. There was a differentiation. I remember in my own journey when I, you know, I'd been coaching for over 10 years, and then I met the field of conscious sexuality and then met this tantric woman who really initiated me more on this path. And I felt like, oh my God, everything came more online in a way I'd never experienced. And I'm curious for you, like, as you started to then explore more into your, you know, the shadows, the taboos, the areas of your Eros, what then began to change in your relationship as a leader, as a business owner? Like, what were a couple of the key pieces? Because this, this is always what's fascinating to me is where sex and leadership meets. That's the nature of, of really this podcast in many ways, is this unification of these two that for many people it's separate. But what I heard you say is that there was a separation and then life force came online and then you took some deeper directionality. So when your erotic body came more into congruency, what were some of the changes that arrived for you? The— I had some really deep transmissions through that time of, of, I contain everything. Every shadow that exists in the world exists inside me. I am not separate from the predator. I am not separate from the helpless victim. I am not separate, separate from the non-consensual taker. I am not separate from, uh, wanting some— just wanting somebody to save me, or whatever the case may be. Like, all of that exists inside me, and as I'm able to just accept what's truly happening inside me and just be with what is, massive amounts of aliveness come online and massive amounts of power. And I think that that's been a big part of my leadership journey is just owning the massive amount of, of, of, um, basically like pain and darkness and shadow and, and helplessness and, and, um, and just all of the hard shit inside of me and my ability to— well, one, in erotic spaces, find ways to like bring that in and own it and like be in relationship with it with a lover or with friends or a group or whatever is going on. And I just found like, whoa, that is just bringing so much more power inside me and how I move into the world. And it's still a really big journey for me, I'd say, as a leader. But my leadership edge is still around actually trust, fully trusting and owning the power that I have to create. I created a pretty high level, but still the biggest limitation is, do I trust myself? Do I believe in myself? And, uh, the more I can just lean into like, yeah, all of that pain, all of that shadow, it exists here. And like, that's just a part of my experience and that gets to be here. As I keep moving into the world and keep creating, then I find that things just really open up. Like, I don't have to fix myself in any way in order to create. Mm-hmm. Yeah, beautiful. So I hear in that the remembrance of yourself as not being broken, being whole, and finding that creative power inside of all situations. And I'm curious, in those moments of forgetting, in those moments of difficulty, who do you lean on? Where do you lean into? Like, what are the friends, the mentors, the individuals that support you in those moments of forgetting? Yeah, I've learned in a way, the hard way, how to build layers of— just layers upon layers of support. Um, there's actually one, um, well, one, there's a, there's a modality that I'm a part of that has been so helpful. It's called reevaluation counseling or peer counseling, and it's basically a network of people that I've developed relationships with where I can reach out at any time and we can trade. It's called trading time, and it's a specific modality that just supports in working with the— essentially like the emotional block, being with it, allowing it to express, and then feeling the wisdom behind it. And so I just— that's just been a big part of my support structure, is this field of people that I can reach out to, set up sessions, whether it's 10 minutes and 10 minutes or an hour and an hour. Um, I've been a part of a men's group for the last 7 years. Which is also just so powerful. It's a rotating leadership men's group, um, that's been really huge. Um, and then, yeah, just more and more cultivating friendships around me of folks that really can see me and support me and, and understand what I'm going through. And then something I'm really conscious of right now, actually, And I've had many coaches over the years as well. Um, something I'm really conscious of right now is actually building more and more relationships with, uh, folks who are creating at or beyond the level that I'm creating at, uh, to be able— there's just a certain kind of support and advice that can come from somebody who is holding a big vision or holding a big projection field or whatever it is. And, um, so that's something I have, but I'm actually working to develop, uh, to develop more. When I was more in my CEO days, I had more kind of like big-time CEO friends around me, uh, who had a lot of that experience, and it's not as present. Yeah, yeah, gotcha. And, and you, you mentioned men's work and kind of being part of a Men's Circle for, you know, over 7 years now. And I'm curious to hear, you know, as part of what we'll be coming together and sharing in October is this men's initiation journey. I'm curious to hear your relationship with brotherhood, especially when it comes to the place of like both deep trust in being able to, I would say, reveal the layers of vulnerability that are alive inside. Because this is something I in myself and leading a lot of men and having, you know, strong men around me. I, I feel like I have areas to, to do that. And I also— some part I'm also tracking is where, like, how much do I really trust in the brothers around me to, to unveil these deeper vulnerabilities and to really be seen in that. And there's layers, of course, and that's part of the, the work that we will be doing together. But on your own personal journey, I'd love to hear where that avenue has been around kind of the trust and the vulnerability pieces with brotherhood. Yeah, you know, that's a really good question, man. I'd say I've like been a part of men's work, specifically different men's circles, men's retreats, men's communities. Since 2014, '15. And I— and in some ways, in some ways I've always kind of had a fair amount of ease with— in some ways I've had a fair amount of ease with men over the years in that I had a really close group of guy friends growing up where actually we were in this like really— I've come to understand like totally small minority where we were actually very comfortable with touch with each other. Growing up, my guy friends, we would cuddle and hold each other. And there was a lot of other dysfunctional stuff about the relationships, but touching and being close in that way was kind of always there. And I was an athlete, and so I was always on teams and feeling really connected with guys. And so in some ways, men's work was— and developing and being able to be close with men was natural. And then in other ways, and specifically maybe into like the deepest, deepest, deepest layers of like really trusting men, has been really hard. My dad was very abusive, alcoholic, and my relationship with my older brother growing up was also extremely hard, like more than just brother shit. Like Very hard. And so there's definitely, for me, been— well, one, the need— that was part of what brought me to men's work was I did not have modeling growing up, really, that I wanted to emulate in any way as far as how to be a man. What does it even mean? And so A lot of my journey has been, you know, a lot of what makes me who I am today is like massive amounts of trial and error and failure because I was like, I don't have a template. Like, what, what is, what is this? Um, and so doing the work with men, um, in some ways was like giving me father figure, was giving me healthy brotherhood that I was very attracted to, um, you know. And then I think in terms of the ability to lean into those deeper and deeper layers, um, I've just— I think I've been blessed to find some amazing men in my path, um, and to, I think, in particular find some really amazing men who are fairly liberated in their sexuality. That has allowed for a level of closeness and vulnerability that's kind of outside of the homophobic, um, context of our, of our culture. Um, and then, you know, just, I honestly, I, I don't know that I've had any kind of like eureka moment about it, but Nothing feels better to me than, uh, like I have these guys, I go and I have a friend who serves men's tea ceremony once a month, and the crowd is generally kind of 40s, 50s, 60s fathers, very successful in their lives. And there's something that just totally— like, I don't even have to be verbally so vulnerable with them in order to just like have my whole system drop. And I'm like, wow, like this feels amazing to just be around these guys who are like loving, established, grounded, um, caring. Anyhow, I don't know, I'm just wanting to bring that in. Like that has been actually the most transformative men's work I've been a part of recently. So really receiving the, the energetic codes of grounded, safe, healthy kind of fatherly energy into you. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, you mentioned around fatherhood, and I'm curious if that's a piece that you're wanting to step into in this life and where you are and, and that own, you know, relationship. For me, you know, as a, as a new father of the, you know, little 8-month-old boy now, and Um, it's always an interesting conversation with the, the men and the friends in my life to see where they're at. Some guys are, you know, wanting to, to create and manifest, and others are like, nope, not, not part of my journey. So where are you on that, that spectrum? Yeah, and I'm, I'm super happy for you and proud of you, Aaron, that you're, you're, you're on that journey. And that's been inspiring to see you, um, well, creating at the level that you are serving at the level that you are and having family and being able to create that. That's really inspiring to me. And so— Yeah, thank you. Glad that you're— I'm super glad that you're on that journey. Yeah, for me, I definitely— I've just always been clear that I want to be a father and have family and You know, in my path up until now, uh, it just definitely was not gonna happen, uh, until now, just in terms of the, the dark nights of the soul and the, and the really like intense journey that it's been over the years, kind of working myself out and to be able to have a family in the way that I want. And I think that's something like, I've, I've always known that I want to be a dad, and, and part of that is like, I, I just feel the beauty that it will be to continue my line, uh, but break the— just fully break the cycle of what, what has been really hard in my, in my lineage and in my family. And I don't think that there would be anything more beautiful than being a father and creating a family dynamic that is whole and coherent. And I'm sure it won't be perfect, but I'm sure it won't be perfect, but Yeah, that, that just opportunity to love someone and create an experience for someone that, yeah, just, just shifts a dynamic that's been going on for generations feels like by far the coolest thing I could do with my life. Beautiful alchemy. Yeah, it's certainly, uh, it's been, been a lot of, a lot of lessons learning and a lot of deep initiations happening in my world in the last really a couple of years for sure, um, fatherhood being a big part of that for sure. And, and I'm curious, you know, in the realms of, of being a, a male body teaching in this field of, of somatics and embodiment and dance and Tantra and, you know, all the, the whatever labels people are putting around it, what, what it— how do you show up relationally you know, in terms of, um, you know, intimacy, sharing with, with, with one, with more than one, because that's also another conversation. And, and being a male body teaching in the field of Tantra for many years now, there's often a lot of thoughts and projections on who people think I am before I've even opened my mouth. So I'm curious to hear some of your journey with that. Wow, that's, that's its own, that's its own podcast, that's its own 7-part series. You know, yeah, so one, yeah, one layer of that is that I'll just name being a kind of like majority presenting white male, younger, cisgender human in these spaces is definitely interesting. It's definitely a challenge. And especially, and especially in America, especially in America, um, uh, it's, it, it is what it is. And there's a way that when I'm leading spaces with a lot of, with a fair number of people in the space, I'm sort of starting from below sea level. In terms of, uh, you know, who I am and what I'm about, or like assumptions about who I am and what I care about. And, um, and so that's one. There's another big piece for me, which is like, I, I have never really doubted myself in these fields in the sense that if my personality were running the show in my life, like if my ego was running the show in my life, I would be nowhere close to tantra, like embodied erotic tantric, whatever. Like I would be making $500K a year working in New York or something and like doing some I don't know, job, or I don't know, like, that's where I would be. And so I, if my, I know that it is not my ego that was like, here, let it, like, this, what I do wasn't even on the menu. Like, it wasn't anywhere near the menu, like, where my journey started. So there's a way that I, I guess I trust my soul into these spaces. And I trust that also what brought me into these spaces was basically facing down the heart of my own darkness. Like, it wasn't like, wow, I love pleasure, and like, wow, pleasure comes to me easily, and so yes, let me just go find these dance spaces, and wow, I'm so good at this, so, oh, okay, I'm leading now. It was like I've got to find a way to like find what is actually real in this life. I've got to find a way what's actually authentic for me because it, you know, in back it is so hard to like find like what is that, how do I actually bring myself authentically into this life and like want to choose life. So I guess there's always sort of been some trust for me and just understanding that, hey, I'm here and I'm here to serve. And, you know, I think one of the things that I do best in these spaces is be willing to set boundaries, is willing to say the hard thing, is be willing to take risks with groups and, um, and, and kind of stand for what I'm really there for despite any fears of, uh, you know, of, of projection or, um, yeah, that's— and I don't know if I'm answering your question fully, but that's, that's what's alive. No, it's great, it's great. And it, it brings up something we were chatting about earlier, um, before we started, around this kind of energy of the, the, the Dark Father and what that means to to, you know, hold that in, in group spaces especially. I was just— came back teaching a training down under, down in Australia, and there was a few situations where I had to really hold that energy for the group for a few dynamics that were happening. And yeah, I'd love to hear your, your takes on especially what you're, you're learning and what's moving through you in what you're mentioning around the boundaries and the holding clear line, and as well as how can you be that dark father but still embody the, the love to help people rewire that energy. Because I think oftentimes that strong, dark, penetrative masculine for many people comes with like a vengeance and comes with like, oh my God, a fear and a power-over dynamic. And one of the, the pieces that's quite strong in, in my own framing is how we can have, you know, as male bodies with that strong sword the power with rather than the power over. I would love to hear some of your take, especially around the Dark Father leadership energy. Yeah. And I'm happy to also, if you want, we could circle back to the relating question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We can bring me back there if you want. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, in, in, in a group context, let's say, Um, I think it all comes down to trust in the way that I want to bring the, the dark, or like density, or, or boundary, or, or, or penetration, is I want to do it in a grounded way, in a, in a, in a not necessarily always like gentle way, but there's this energy of soft, soft power, um, in a sense, and definitely, uh, power with, right? It's the energy of power with. And, you know, sometimes that— I'd say a lot of times it just looks like, for me, slowing down. In a way, you can get really far by just slowing everything down. And I think where people get tripped up, and I even got tripped up in this in a conversation yesterday, just allowed myself to get sped up by charge in a conversation versus like, oh, there's charge. All right, let's just slow this down and track, okay, there's charge here. What is this calling for? Mm-hmm. And so I think sometimes this even drives some people crazy how much I'll slow things down when I'm working with people. But I think part of it is also I really have been dedicated to cultivating in a group leadership context, cultivating trust of— it's basically cultivating trust of, hey, if, if I'm present with each moment as it is, I trust the outcome and I don't have to force outcomes. Um, and then there's also been, in, in terms of the Dark Father, and I think this is a big leadership initiation is ultimately when you have to make decisions, there's no way of ever knowing if what you decided was right. Mm-hmm. No, sometimes great, like some great outcome happens and you're like, cool, like, wow, that seemed like the right decision. But that's actually, to me, the real initiation is in leadership is when you have to make calls. That's just based on, hey, I'm the one responsible right now and I need to follow what I believe is best. And I'm never going to know if this was fully the best decision, or that's— that doesn't even exist. And I think that's probably the deepest initiation I'm in right now, is the ability to, yeah, like, listen take in information, counsel with people. But actually, ultimately, I think there's a deep shadow in a lot of our maybe more spiritual leadership circles of like wanting to— it's like the green meme of like, everybody's voice is included and let's, let's like listen. And actually there's something in, no, I need to just trust myself. I'm responsible. I've done enough. Work and shadow excavation to also be able to track when is something actually pinging my material and I'm moving from my material or my personality structure versus something deeper inside. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I, I can relate a lot to that in, you know, kind of managing and, and building community here in Portugal and often having a lot of, you know, teams and people underneath me and things that I'm, I'm handling, you know, not just with this project, but other projects where it requires a certain capacity to, to make decisions and know that you're never ever going to make everyone, you know, perfectly happy, and nothing's ever going to be perfectly right or wrong. It's just that kind of deeper, um, knowing of, of, I think, an intuition inside. And, and kind of leads me into another question here is, in this role of, of kind of being a male body, I'm curious to hear how you've you know, woven together that what might be more feminine qualities of deep listening, of intuition, of slowing down, of, of, um, really being able to have deeper receptivity. That's a big part of the, the work we do with the Initiation Journey is it's, uh, you know, having men, uh, you know, get their spear and their, their sword stronger and more clear, but also deepening in the level of receptivity in their body. And How is that kind of feminine aspect of listening and receptivity? How has that been for you on your journey? Yeah, and that's been in many ways really central. And that's, that's where, that's where, that's part of where The Erotic Body comes in. And so even just as a core pillar, like self-pleasure as a deep practice, to be in communion with my own erotic aliveness is the feminine expressing in my own being, and being really dedicated to that and, and loving on that as much as I can. There's also a way of basically when I, when I orient to following aliveness and trusting life, that's a feminine, that's a feminine orientation. That I don't always do amazingly at. But what I suppose that I've— the insight that I've had more recently around as a man, as a leader, being in relationship with the feminine is, for me, like, my feminine moves a lot slower than my masculine. And my feminine is like much more shy than my masculine. And she's, yeah, she's not as developed as my masculine. And what I had this insight of like, oh, what, what my patterns can be sometimes is like if my feminine is not quick enough or strong enough or loud enough to like really get my attention and like show me what to do, my masculine will come in and be like, all right, well, I guess we're just gonna make this happen now. Or like, I gotta— I guess we gotta just make for, you know, force an outcome, or make more money, or run more events, or whatever, like make shit happen. And it's actually— the orientation has been like, oh, well, what if my masculine was like, hey sweetie, like, what can I go get for you? Mm-hmm. You know, like, even in like a play party kind of context, if I'm, you know, it's like, instead of like having my masculine just kind of like jet out into the field to like create something that he would like, it'd be like, oh sweetie, like, what would you like to experience in this play party? And then I'm gonna go ask that person to, to do it with us or whatever. And that's really shifted things for me. And then, as you know, as a leader in group fields, often what I'm orienting to is using my masculine to create structure, clarity, containment, presence, safety to then just say, what is true inside of you, my friend, or my brother? Like, what's actually happening inside you right now? And let's follow that. Yeah, what you share feels like such a core component for healthy embodied, you know, facilitation and leadership in these spaces. And The framework of inner union dialoguing is the way I would reference it, really, this conversation between masculine and feminine. In my own journey, you know, that was especially after COVID, and I started to travel again and meet the road again. And I like, it was my masculine turning back to my feminine saying, you know, what do you want to create here? And that's when, you know, I got land in Bali. And then I, you know, a couple of years later found this land in Portugal. She was like, I want children, I want land, I want, you know, home, I want structure. He's like, okay, all right, I'm gonna go work and create and manifest and teach and do all that. And then just, you know, to bring more joy to her. So I felt like the manifestation of my outer partner Natasha was really a reflection of this relationship of deepening with the inner feminine, which is so vital. And I think it's such a piece with brotherhood and with men's work that It's not forgotten, but a lot of men are like, no, no, we can't talk about that because we need to be more alpha. We need to be, you know, we can't be the ones talking about femininity because that might mean that, you know, whatever it might mean. So yeah, I'd love to, to hear how that's been because you— I think we all, we came from similar New England area, like they're very kind of— are you from Mashfield? I'm from Mashfield. Remind me, where did you grow up? I'm from Newton. Newton, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where my sister is now. So yeah, I've been Marshfield, you're in Newton. You know, there's a, there's a Boston mentality. Like, I knew how to carry myself with a very strong, rigid directionality, and it wasn't until later in life with a lot of fear that I deepened into my relationship with my feminine. So as a man from Newton, you know, and, and bringing this work into the world and deepening with feminine, how do you, how do you know, communicate this to men who are fucking terrified of being and deepening with their feminine, but that's exactly what they actually need because their relationships are falling apart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, we are absolute aliens for where we, where we come from. Like, and I know all over the country there's, you know, male culture for boys is hard. But like, I don't think it gets harder than Eastern Massachusetts, Boston area, in terms of all of that. Yeah. And that's been its own journey too, with just like friends from growing up and I'm just too much of an alien for them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so part from A lot of what I found with— and actually a decent amount of what men's work is to me is feminine initiation. You know, there's, there's masculine initiation in men's work, which is super important, um, right, to, to, to have that. But the feminine initiation, to be able to feel, able to have our emotions, to be able to be weak, to be able to be vulnerable, um, is, is huge and has been, has been a big part of my journey. And, and I'd say what I found and the way I work with men around that is, um, is in, is, is several ways. Um, well, one, I have personally always just felt more masculine the more vulnerable I can be. Because I'm present to the fact that that's fucking scary. And when I do scary things, I feel more manly because I'm like not being— I'm not just living in— and I'm not living in fear of my vulnerabilities. And so I've really always just had the experience of, hey, the more I can be vulnerable and the more men can be vulnerable it's gonna fuel your masculine. It's gonna fuel your sense of like, yeah, I've got me. And because part of that is like, anything can happen and I can be with it. I think that's actually like true masculinity. That's true strength, is anything can happen and I can be with it. I can be with my emotions, I can be with other people's emotions, and just be present. And I think that resonates with some men. I also think that there's a— I think part of what the initiation journey is, is we are not here to tell men how to be a man. And this is actually different than a lot of men's work. We are here to be like, hey, what is the divine spark of life that you are? Irrespective of the— all these constructs. And let's pay attention to that and bolster that, and that's going to make you feel amazing. And if that makes you feel like more of a man and a strong person, great. But we are not here to— I actually think there's a danger in a lot of men's work is that even though it's giving men better boxes it's still boxes that we're putting men in. It's like, how present can you be? How much can you open your woman with your, you know, with your presence? Uh, you know, like, it's, it's better boxes, but it's, it's still a box. And I have always found that the boxes— I didn't feel like a strong man inside any of those boxes. Yeah, I, I love that you share that because I feel a lot of even, yeah, I've seen with men's work still comes from this old mentality of, you know, what I would say, you know, follow the guru, follow the master. I'm going to tell you what to do, you're going to do it, you're going to become a better man because of it. And I even see some tantric spaces like that as well that aren't really in the place of self-inquiry and self-discovery. They're of a— this is the modality, this is the practice, and go and do that modality just as the master said you're supposed and then you're going to learn and you're going to become enlightened. And to me, at this point, it makes me a little bit sick. And, you know, I'm also— I, I can feel the old school framework of where it comes from. Like, I was just— when I was back in Bali, I was doing a teaching, a 4-day training with, with a friend, Margot Anand, who, you know, comes from that modality. And, you know, she's directly trained by Osho and still is in that way of like I am the guru and the master, and you're here to learn from me. And, you know, and it's— I— we have very interesting conversations about it because she's actually a lot more receptive now than she used to be. But this exact framework, especially for men coming into these spaces, almost— there's both a part of them that wants the direct tell me what to do, and then there's also that like divine spark that you're speaking into that ultimately is where we want to support them into. So where is that, like, where's that threshold in between of having enough directionality to support them to actually break the fucking addictions and the things that aren't working for them anymore, and that they need to actually just grow the fuck up? And, you know, where's the creative impulse of aliveness that sparks them into the new moment? And, and I think that's the beauty of the initiation journey and this, this particular work is that I think it's very balanced. I think it's very balanced. And I think it's, you know, we as men, I think we need enough masculine initiation through whatever it is— warrior, king, lover, magician. Um, we need, we need enough of that for sure to be able to materialize in the world. But the challenge for a lot of men's work is they're just like cycling in that over and over and over again. And so with this journey, I think what's— and this is the men's work I'm most interested in— is this balance where we can meet men wherever they are in that. And, and there's actually a lot of, you know, a lot of men that that just need more of a feminine initiation. That I have found, that's where, that's where purpose comes from. Purpose, like all the masculine without being like imbued with the just like heartbreak of our lives, you know, is like, what is that? Why don't want to be a part of that? I'm not inspired by that. So it's like, what is just like the deepest heartbreak you've ever had? That, brother? And, and how does that give you just uncommon motivation to stand up for something in your life, right? Like, can you let yourself be shattered by that? Um, like, I want to stand with somebody who's been shattered by their heartbreak and their futility. And like, this is a part of it, is like the futility in ever being able to make yourself matter through external creation. I think what we're interested in is like, hey, do that enough times that you just realize it's completely futile and let it break your heart. Absolutely. Yeah, I, I'd love to Here you're, you know, you've created and brought forth this piece around Dance Meet Tantra, and I'm sure there's the, um, you know, the parts of the ego that can be identified to that. And I also see, you know, I'm not a part of it, but I have many friends and colleagues and individuals I know connected to it, and it feels like it's, it's, it's growing and expanding, and which is beautiful, like, well done, amazing work. And I'd love to hear your perspective on this exact place between, like, the ego's identification to the thing that gets birthed and created, and where is the letting go of— okay, like, what's the form that this is going to take itself into, and can I fully let go of that, or where is the control that tries to take over it? So what, what's your active real-time journey with that exact dance. Would love to, you know, keep me up to speed here. What's happening? Yeah, you're putting me on the hot seat now. You know, get real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so we've been through, you know, we're, I don't know, 5 years into this specific project, uh, Dance Sex Meets Tantra. And it's already been a number of cycles of, of change and reinvention, for sure, already. And, and we're really at a, we're at a transformational juncture in this moment where it is, it is really starting to take on its own life. This has been a really funny kind of a— like, you know, I, I, in some ways I'll admit I sort of maniacally sold out every event in the beginning. Like, I was just like, there was a fire in my, in my soul to just say, we are going to create a context of this thing where the, the house is full. The house is full and we're gonna crush it. And that's gonna be the— the— and we're gonna— when I say crush it, we're gonna deliver an amazing experience. And that's gonna be what this is. I'm not interested in like offering some workshops, maybe people come, maybe people don't. Like, that's not— so, but there was a time, I don't know when recently, where I realized like, oh, the success of Dance Meets Tantra no longer is like whether this individual event succeeds or not. And that really kind of showed me even some of my own mania, uh, for sure, around like, around it all. And I'm being a little bit hyperbolic, obviously, but yeah, yeah, where we are now is, is just— I, I— there is, there's definitely a letting go. We have more leaders coming into the field. It's hard for— sometimes it's hard for me I struggle with— so one of my struggles is like being super clear in expectations, right? And just be— and, and being willing to kind of own my expectations fully and then saying, great, if you meet these expectations, like, here's all of the control that you want, right? So like, there you go. And I think that's also some of the fatherhood journey of like These are the expectations. This is what happens if the expectations aren't met. And so I'm really being worked by that right now. As far as folks coming in, I'm also being worked by how do we— how does the financial model actually work so that this can grow? You know, candidly, I've been sort of like an unpaid CEO for 5 years, and that job keeps getting bigger in a way. I'm like, well, this isn't exactly tenable. So yeah, I'm really in the thick of it, but I think it's really right now it's around expectations, setting them, letting go, and just trusting that the folks that are coming into the field right now are really high quality and supporting them. And, you know, important for me in all of it, in my ability to let go, Aaron, is I'm actually really clear that I'm not— like, I have no interest in leading Dance Meets Tantras for the next 20 years. I'm a creator and a visionary and an artist, and I actually am like— my enrolling myself in getting out of the way right now and being empowering is like so I can create more stuff. Actually, beautiful. It's like Spencer Jacobson, if you can just fucking let go of control, this gives you the freedom to like keep creating more fun stuff. Uh, and I'm having varying levels of success with that. I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a conversation I'm, I'm kind of always looking at inside of this creative model, especially in these tantric and embodiment spaces, and where you know, the individuals that bring people, bring things in, have this like ownership of it, and, and where it actually inhibits the, the growth that wants to happen. Like, there's— I mean, I'm teaching with 4 or 5 different schools in this whole field, so I see a lot of different models. And then, you know, with the initiation journey, I'm kind of more the one that's been spearheading that. And it's very fascinating to see like what's working and where is that initial creator holding on too strong not letting it grow. And then where is it actually too weak and it needs more banks of the river to allow it to flow more. It's a very, you know, and then I reflect that back into my own journey with, you know, the leadership projects I'm part of. It makes for facilitation and this kind of business growth pieces really fascinating, especially from the the limelight of human behavior and where we want to grab onto things, name things, claim things. And I often find like in the space of creating this, of course there's always new themes and ways of doing things, but there's never actually anything totally new. It's just been packaged and copyrighted and done in a certain way. And then people like, oh, it's a new thing. Let me, let me go do it. It's like, Yeah, yeah, okay, of course. And, you know, let's just, you know, call a fucking spade a spade. So, yeah, yeah, fascinating. But by the way, we, we could explore if, if you're, if you're wanting to come explore the dance meets tantra field, uh, we'd be happy to. I'd be happy to, um, initiate you. And maybe, maybe we could get Aaron teaching at a sixth, a sixth school. I, I've got, I've already, my gears are already turning. I'm sure. But I actually— that's a, that's a big part for me as a leader is I'm genuinely really tracking for leaders that I'm like, I really want to bring in other significant leadership and capability and capacity. And there's a whole journey with that of developing talent or also just identifying talent that's kind of already at a level where, hey, can we just get the osmosis enough for you to like really, uh, just get the, the core vibration of what we're doing? And that's actually a whole journey too around leadership and, um, kind of like homegrown or, or, or, or saying, hey, who else is out there that's really, um, really doing this? So Yeah, yeah, it's a— I mean, I think my, my Aquarian soul loves the, the place of, you know, being in a lot of different models. And also just, you know, my facilitation brain loves that I get to, you know, show up in all these different kind of forms and frameworks and, you know, different configurations. It makes the— you could say the art and the job of facilitation much more fun rather than rinse and repeat with the same thing over and over and over again. So You know, it's a much more dynamic environment in that way. And the leadership side makes it more fun as well. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I— and to what you were saying before, there is just a massive difference between facilitating something and building something. Like, good Lord. You know, it just is insanely different. Skills and capacities. And, and yes, facilitation is a form of leadership, but it's, it's— unless you're lucky and your karma is to like both be like— you're— that your best leadership style is, is facilitation and that works for building your business, um, I just think that they're incredibly different skills and different initiations and have different challenges. And it's something that I try to talk to a lot of my mentees about and clients about and folks that are coming into different fields is the difference between leading and, like, building something from nothing, coming in and coming into an existing thing and continuing to build it, or are you just facilitating in that field? You know, the difference between coaching and facilitation and Those are just all really valuable contexts. And I actually think that's part of the value of the initiation journey when we can kind of break out of the boxes of what we think we should do. Mm-hmm. Just be able to tune into like, what is my nature? And I think, and I've actually had to come to like a hard— it's been hard for me because I sometimes I see people like you and others who are like, invited to facilitate in a lot of different fields. And that just doesn't feel like that, that just— and I, if I, if I kind of look at that, and I'm like, well, why am I not like that? I can get disempowered versus being like, well, what if actually there was just a way that I'm here in my nature to create? And the way is, I'm mainly creating my own fields in that way, or You know, it's not always universally like that, but the self-acceptance to be like, hey, I actually think this is how I do it, is really valuable and something I want to help men do. Because sometimes we're like, I have to be the alpha or whatever, I have to be the leader in this thing, and that may not be your nature. Yeah, I, I love that you bring that in, especially around both the, the brotherhood and the leadership piece, because that's something I'm always trying to convey, especially to men in these trainings. It's like, this is how I show up and do this work. This is how, you know, Spencer Jacobson shows up and do this work. But please do not duplicate and copy what we're doing. Like, find your own unique thread of genius inside of this. And that's also what I'm excited for. Like, in these— in, in about a week and a half here in Portugal, I'm, I'm co-creating this initiation journey with Blake, who's been, you know, doing his own thing with Remember for a while. And we've taught together in ISTA, but we've never taught, you know, never taught the men's work. And when we first— he's one of the founders as well in Juicyland, our project here. And when we were first kind of finalizing this, I said, brother, let's like, let's do a men's training here. And both of us like lit up. And, you know, so we're— it'll be fun to see like like in the framework of what he was doing and what I'm doing, how this is gonna, you know, kind of bring itself through, through both of that. And that's like a very fun piece. That's also what I'm looking forward to with both you and Attila in Colorado, is like, okay, here are some structures that we have for this, and what's the unique essence that gets to be delivered in this co-creation of the three of us, you know, converging in this moment. Yeah, that's awesome. And I'm stoked you're working with Blake and creating that. And again, that's, you know, that's a balance of masculine and feminine leadership that you're bringing to, right, to initiate and also to, you know, to set a context and then also to listen to like, hey, and, and like, what is this, uh, specific alchemy, uh, or combination that's happening here? And that's, you know, that's, that's totally a dance. And it's really cool. The dance of Tantra, the dance of embodiment, the dance of life. For sure, for sure. So yeah, anything you'd like to share with the listeners of upcoming projects or things that are on your plate you'd like to share with people out there, or where to find you, etc.? Yeah, um, a couple main things that I'm really stoked about right now. Um, July 4th weekend in Loveland, Colorado, we are running the Rebel Convergence, which is by Dance Meets Tantra, and it's a curation of the facilitators and modalities and music that have just inspired us from the beginning. So it's like, it's not quite a festival, not quite a retreat, but this choose-your-own-adventure depth, still a closed container. 300 people. So that is an awesome thing to check out that I've been really devoted to. We have an Embodied Eros facilitator training, which is also by Dance Meets Tantra, and the next cohort will be in 2027, but already getting a lot of applications for that. And, and that's really like, if you're, if you're looking for like the deepest dive you can have to step into your own soul-aligned, erotically alive leadership and facilitation. That's, that's the coolest thing to check out. And then yeah, I'm stoked we have this October 24 to 30, I think, in Colorado initiation journey. And then people can find me on Instagram @Spencer Jacobsonjacobson_. That's a good place to find me. And Yeah, amazing, brother. Well, I think from, uh, two, two assholes, we've turned out pretty, pretty all right. We did it. Yeah, we did it. Made it out. Made it out for sure, for sure. So thank you all for tuning in to Love and Leadership. If you've liked this conversation, please comment, please share. If there's questions for either myself or Spencer Jacobson you're welcome to put it into wherever you're watching this in whatever form it is. Thank you for tuning in, have an amazing day, and, uh, see you next time. Thank you, brother. Thanks, Aaron. Awesome to talk to you.