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Circling The Drain is a show about the current state of the music and radio businesses as well as culture in general!
Hosted by John E. Bozeman and Jay Harper along with Jim McCarthy as Co-Host/Executive Producer.
John has had a storied career in music and talk radio, most notably as the Executive Producer for the late and legendary Phil Valentine.
Jay also has has a long career in radio as Announcer, Play-by-Play, Voice and On-Camera Actor. He was also an Artist Rep for MCA records.
Jim McCarthy ALSO has had a tremendous career in radio since 1996 and has since brought his consulting/producing skillset to the podcast world.
Circling the Drain is produced by ItsYourShow.co
Unknown: But it's interesting
how what what hits and what
doesn't well. And you can
usually tell by a live like a
live appearance like that, yeah,
you can I remember the first
time I heard Copperhead road by
Steve Earle. Yeah, I knew that
was going to because, the way,
because I saw it performed
twice, once solo and then
another time with the full band.
This is before it came out. I
saw it with a full band. The
place erupted. And I thought,
Man, this is going to be a
powerful song.
Welcome to a podcast about music
and entertainment before it all
goes down the disposal. This is
circling the drain.
Hey, welcome back into circling
the drain, the podcast that
tries to keep the entertainment
business out of the garbage
disposal, especially us, the
three J's, maybe you know us by
now. John E Bozeman right here,
also known as Johnny B in some
circles, and there you've got
Jay,
that's right, otherwise known as
Jeff.
Yes, Joe, I've got a whole No,
that's my, that's my given name
is Jeffrey, really? And a lot of
folks, you know, they don't know
who the hell Jay is. And then
I've got a whole other side of
folks, they have no idea who
Jeff is. I've got, I've got
these J Joe, yeah, I've got this
split identity thing.
We know who Chris is, yeah,
McCarthy, it's JJC. How you
doing? Jim, good. How
are you good to see you guys?
Yeah, it's always fun to hang
with Johnny. B The three. J's,
baby, I'm circling the drain,
and you can follow us like us,
share. Yeah, absolutely. Like,
follow, share. We're on
Facebook. We are on Instagram,
barely we're on Twitter. Well,
x, formerly Twitter, yes, you
have to YouTube. And of course,
you know, Jim has been the
master of gaming. Us on all of
these audio platforms for
podcast. We're like, on about a
dozen of them. Oh, yeah, it's
pretty it's pretty amazing all
of the outlets, but yeah, we
appreciate the folks spread the
word.
Well, we also like all of your
comments. If there's anything
you like to critique about us,
we take it, bring it. We love
it, we welcome it. We want you
to tell us all about what you
think about our podcast circling
the drain, and we try to get
guests on here. Sometimes they
don't show up. We won't use
names. I won't I won't embarrass
anybody, but
that one day they will come to
regret it. Yes, they will.
They'll say, dang, I should have
been supposed to have been on
that. I should have gone on that
podcast, on that world famous
podcast.
Yeah, we're gonna have some
great guests coming up, but
right now, you've got us. And
speaking of entertainment, which
was what we really talk about,
we you know, there have been a
lot of artists that we've seen
over our radio careers and even
other ventures we've been into,
like you, with being in the
music business. There have been
artists that we've seen that
have not quite got as as big as
we thought they would. And I
think one that comes to mind for
me, and I don't mean to it's not
I'm these people have made
careers. They've had decent
careers, successful, but they've
been successful. But I pictured
them. There was a group on MCA,
a group of artists that I
thought were going to be the
next wave of country music. I
really believed in all of them.
That was Steve Earle, Lyle,
Lovett, Nancy Griffith. I
thought those three people would
have really been I thought they
were going to be huge because I
thought they're taking country
music into the next millennium.
They are the new country sound.
And that was the foresight and
the the genius, if you will, of
country music. Hall of Famer
Tony Brown, yes, sir. Tony was
head of A and R at MCA. I happen
to been around in the Promotion
Department at MCA, when those
artists you just mentioned were
brought aboard. Patty loveless
also came in. Oh yes. And of
course, she too a Country Music
Hall of Famer, so she's done all
right, yeah, she had hits, but
yeah, you know, people have to
remember the time. This was 8586
and
country music. Just really
didn't know. I the country
radio, I guess I should be more
specific, really didn't know
what it wanted. No, it didn't,
you know. I mean, it was kind of
the waning of the careers of of
Conway Twitty and Loretta Lynn,
at least from a record radio
hit, record, hit, yeah,
even though I point Waylon
Jennings his, you know, his
career was starting, yeah,
they were on the downside of
their career, you know, heck and
so, you know, Tony had the
vision, and Emery Gordy was also
part of that. Yes, and I'm
trying to think of some of the
other David Hungate was also a
producer there. Anyway, they
they had the vision of really
thinking that they could do
something with with Lyle and
Nancy Griffith and and Steve
Earle. Well, I think country
radio was ready for them, but
not so
much. No, they really weren't.
And I, I was frustrated by it,
because I was in country radio
at the time, and I did like
these people. I played the
records, and I was seeing the I
was seeing the request line
people asking for these records.
But the rest of the nation just
wasn't
going on quite ready. Lyle
leavitt's first album was not an
album that was produced by MCA,
it was an album that he had done
in Arizona, that he had put
together and done himself and
brought it to MCA, and we ran
with that album. It had, if I
remember, I had cowboy man on,
oh, yeah, you know, some other
good stuff. But I tell you, it
was such a weird you know, and I
think we've talked about this in
other podcasts, the stupid
reasons that a lot of radio
people don't want to play
certain acts. And I would get
all of us got the comment that
they didn't play Lyle Levitt
because they thought his hair
looked
funny. Oh, it was ridiculous. I
remember being in on a meeting.
It was with several, it was, it
was several industry people, and
some of them were from the Jim
Halsey company. And there was
some, like radio guy there, and
he said, I wish you guys tell
these, some of these musicians
and these singers to when they
come on stage, we don't want to
see them in torn jeans and and I
loved what, what one gentleman
told him, he said, we're not in
the business of telling these
people how to dress. And I
thought, well, yeah, that has
nothing to do with the music,
right? And listening on the
radio. You know you don't hear
torn jeans. No. I mean, do you
like the music or not?
You don't hear Steve earls. You
know, headband. You don't you
know the wristband, wristband,
you know, you don't even hear
him. You don't hear the click of
him voting Democrat. He just had
great music. The guy was a great
artist. Still
is, yeah, but you know those
artists that you mentioned
there, I mean, you know, in
certain worlds, Lyle Lovett, for
example, very successful. You
know, he's out there with that
large band. He's been touring
with that group for ever, 30
years. You know, 30 plus years.
You know a sad you know, Nancy
Griffith, who passed away here a
year or two back, that that just
kind of a sad story. I mean, she
was, I was only around her a
little bit. Never got to know
her. I don't think anybody
really got to know her. She was
very closed in, very reserved,
almost to the point of it being
weird, yeah, you know. But she
certainly had her, her own
unique style, you know, the
quirkiness of Lyle and Steve
Earle, yes, and Nancy Griffith,
I think is what attracted them
to, to Tony brown and the the
group at MCA, well, that's
because they were just so
different, because everything
had become so homogenized.
Well, I got so tired of the
cowboy hat. You know the cowboy
hat?
Yeah, the hat acts. But you know
that it's Country Music's always
going to be that way. Johnny,
oh, sure. And that's, and
there's room for that, of
course. You know there was one
guy I know that a great artist,
David Lee Murphy. I don't think
he really intended to be a head
act, but they had him where they
put him in a hat, they put him
in a dust on the bottle. Yeah,
great song, great song, great
guy. And he's written some
great Nashville songwriter, Hall
of Fame. He deserves to be. And
yeah, party crowd was another
hit that, yeah, he had as an
artist.
You guys remember Emily West,
they ring a bell. I don't know
that's exactly that's somebody
who should have made it. My
buddy and I Rich, who plays with
Al Dean. I did it. We did a
documentary on him when I first
started becoming friends with
him. And one of the things that
we did was when he did a show
with her, I'll showcase Douglas
corner. I want to say it was
yes. And what a voice. I mean,
sing the phone book. He even
says in the documentary, he
says, I don't care where she's
playing. I will play with her
anywhere, anytime. I'll play
with her in the parking lot at
Sears to nobody, just so I get
to play with her. Yeah, and she
was just one. Just, my goodness,
what happened? Come on. Well,
I know it just really boggles
the mind. There's a girl that I
just fell in love with, as far
as her singing, plus she played
great harmonic. Monica or Harp
was Stacy Collins, I don't know
if you guys have ever heard of
her. She is phenomenal. Yeah,
it's a shame, but I don't hear
of them, no, and you never do.
And
for me, Susie Boggess,
you know, she was on Capitol and
had some modest hits, but a
voice like a, I mean, just an
angel, oh yes, and, but, you
know, having been, and I'm
certainly no expert on this, I
mean, I only had a small
perspective on these kinds of
things, but, you know, we ask
ourselves, why wasn't so the
talent is there. There's no
mistaking it. But it's other
factors that play into becoming
a star. The it factor, yeah,
there's that. There's maybe poor
management decisions, perhaps
family members that were
managers of Acts who didn't know
what they were doing, ticked off
record companies. And there are
so many other factors that that
come into play, other than just
talent, extenuating
circumstances that can really
sidetrack
careers. Oh, exactly. And it's
all timing. It's all boy in
that. The big thing is finding
the song. That's what it all
comes down to, yeah, yeah. Well,
it's like I was a big fan of
Nashville rock band, Jason and
the scorchers. Remember great,
great band and great talent, all
of them. I really fell in love
with Warner Hodges, the guitar
player. I loved his guitar
playing. I fell in love with it,
but they just never caught on
with FM rock radio. They were
either to country or to rock,
neither. Nobody would you just
described Steve Earle, yeah,
that's why I'm with Steve. Yeah.
I mean, he just kind of we, you
know, wedged in the middle of
all that. And yeah, countries
thought he was rock, rock
thought he was country.
Yep. Same with same with these
guys, another guy that happened
to Gary Stewart, God rest his
soul. Great Honky Tonk singer.
But he also he'd rock out, you
know, he would play slide
guitar, and they didn't know
what to do with him. He was too
wild for country music.
The other there's a lot of
Canadian acts like in country
that just like really good ones
that just don't seem to make it
down here, for some reason, one
almost did, and they had a
really big album out of saying
Oh 506, Emerson drive, oh yeah,
yes. Great, great. Bunch of
guys, I think some of them are
still here in town. What a great
harmonies, great song selection.
Yeah, a really good friend of
mine was their road manager for
a while, and he told, yeah, as
you say, said the best group of
guys that he ever got to work
with.
What a fun not my brother and I.
He always, he's like, Whatever
happened to them? My brother's
in musician as well. He's got a
good year. I said, Dude, I just,
you know, it was C list at best,
maybe B list, yeah, you know, in
terms of popularity, but yeah,
my goodness,
you know, the Mavericks, to me,
always should have been a lot,
you know, Raoul Mallow with a
voice, yeah. And you know what a
following they have, though
agreed they do, you know. And
they were the ones that did
remember. I was telling you a
few episodes back about their
version of a doctor. Feel good
if you ever get a chance to
listen to that. It is
phenomenal. It's the best. I
used to love Motley Cruz version
until I heard their version,
their version, because it's,
it's more big band Latino, you
know, it's just got a great
sound to it, plus it really
brings out the story of the song
they they blew that out of the
park. Wow, yeah, you guys need
to check that out. But another
band I really fell in love with.
I saw them a friend of mine in
Atlanta, Brother Dave White, I
was going through a divorce, and
he invited me down to this it
was in the middle of nowhere. It
was the ozone Bar and Grill in
Covington, Georgia, and David
Allen CO was playing, and
Blackberry smoke was opening for
them. For him, I fell in love
with his band. They, you talk
about good southern rock, it
just reminded me of Skinner and
almond brothers packed into one,
plus they are a little more
country. Yeah.
I was introduced to them by a
woman that worked for me way
back when, and she was always
talking, you know, about
BlackBerry smoke. This was in
Columbia, South Carolina. Oh
yeah. And she said, you know
that they were coming through
town, and she and her husband
were gonna, you know, I never
heard of these guys before. They
have a following, yeah, oh
yeah, it's and they were smart.
They're great to their audience.
In fact, I really got to where I
love the drummer. Brit Turner, I
would always, anytime we went to
see them, I'd end up talking to
him after the gig. Nice Guy,
super nice. He wouldn't you to
look at him. It's like one
friend of mine was with me at
one of their shows, and he said,
don't look at the drummer. He'll
kill you because he looked like
a biker, you know. But he was
the nicest guy, and he passed
away recently, and, I mean, it
hit me like a family member.
Well, it was really tough.
So he looked like the drummer
for the Muppets, animal, animal.
He kind of did, but he's a
really cool guy, but they're all
nice guys. I mean, the whole
band, they'd stay after they
just knew how to how to take
care of their fans, and that's
why they've gotten as far as
they have, but still they
haven't really gotten to that
same thing for Susan Tedeschi,
yes, I do remember her. She put
a voice on her. We played her at
the radio station I started at
in Connecticut, and did a couple
of things with her, but she had
about one or two hits.
Well, it's like that with the
Georgia satellites, you know,
they had that one big hit. Keep
your hands to yourself, yeah,
and they made another great
album in the land of salvation
and sin. Did nothing but great,
great record, great band.
Well, to me, an act that they
should have been superstars, but
one of the sadder stories in
music history, I guess you could
say, was the tale of Badfinger,
yeah, you know, on Apple Records
and had some great stuff. Baby
Blue come and get it, yeah? Just
really, really fine stuff. But
then after Apple folded, they
got into legal issues with the
bank couldn't get their music
released, and they had a manager
who swindled them, and one
of the Alan Klein would it, one
of the lead singer, I believe it
was committed suicide over all
that. I mean, it's just such a
heartbreaking story. I mean,
there's a movie there about the
pitfalls of of being successful
and then having your legs cut
out from under you. Well, the
best due to a bunch of legal
crap that had nothing to do with
your music. Well,
the bad thing about that, too,
was that was a time when the
Beatles, they they just made
horrible decisions after their
manager died. They should have
gotten a great manager, but they
didn't. They first tried to do
it themselves. That's what
happened with Apple. They tried
to run that themselves. They
weren't businessmen, they were
musicians. And then they got
with Alan Klein, who was just
nothing but a shark. I mean,
that guy ripped off every band
he ever managed, The Rolling
Stones, The Beatles and then
Badfinger just happened to,
you know, there's their song day
after day. Oh yeah, that was
produced by George Harrison,
yeah, you know exactly. So they,
I thought they were a phenomenal
group, and they should have been
huge, but those extenuating
circumstances that we kind of
discussed, it keeps a lot of the
talents there, but it's just a
bunch of other garbage that gets
in the way of some of these
artists being bigger than they
ultimately were.
Well, there's a young lady that
lives here. I won't use her
name, but she was Jimmy Bowen
was interested in her, and he
was going to sign her as an
artist. She did end up being a
hit songwriter, but I think she
could have been a big artist,
because, number one, she was
beautiful, had great talent,
played banjo like I've never
heard in my life, just a great,
great talent. But her husband
got involved, and he this, this
is a story I got that he went to
Jimmy Bowen and said, she
deserves more money. Yeah,
making. Started making demands,
and you don't do that with
Bowen. Yeah. He said, Well, I
tell you what we'll do, rip,
rip, here's the
contract. Yep, it's done. I
could see him doing that. Yeah,
absolutely. So
that'll wreck you if you're so
that's, that's, that is a lesson
to you ladies out there, don't
let your husbands dictate what
your career is going to be. Only
your
husbands grow up to be cowboys.
Yeah, bully on other bigger
cowboys. The other one that
comes to mind is mutual friend
of ours,
Reggie ham Yes. Why isn't Reggie
a huge he's trying. He keeps
trying. Oh, I know he keeps
trying. And he's got the goods.
I mean, he's got the songs, he's
got
he's got everything. Yep. Do you
fellows remember an artist named
Tony Tolliver? Yes, sounds
familiar? He had a record deal.
It may have been MCA back in the
90s, but I played well. I wasn't
in radio at the time. I was
producing concerts. Back then.
But anyway, I did hear some of
his stuff on radio. I met him
when he was the piano player for
Dottie West. I was producing a
concert. Dottie was one of the
acts on the bill. This was at a
fair in Maine and Tony Tolliver.
That guy sounded you would have
thought he was Ronnie Millsap.
That's who he sounded like, Wow.
I mean, just a fabulous artist.
And, you know, I had a little
chat with him about why he
didn't break through, because he
was a great artist, yeah, and he
just said politics.
Well, that is a lot of the, you
know, problem, yeah.
Now there may have been more to
the story than that, but you
know that was, that was his
perspective.
Well, I always heard that with
Steve Earle at MCA, a lot of his
problem was Sheila Shipley.
Always heard that story there.
Yeah, she wasn't a fan. No,
that's what he's Yeah.
And Sheila, maybe may see this.
I don't know she
might, you know, but it's just,
you know, that's, that was the
story that
well, you know, they're at
labels as anywhere. You know,
there are priorities, man. And
you know, I've always said that
chart position for songs don't
necessarily mean all that much.
No, you know, it's the politic,
the political game, at least way
back when, when you were, you
know, in a Promotion Department
and you were pushing certain
acts to to rise up the charts
more so than you were others?
Yeah, if there was a battle
between George Strait and Steve
Earle in the top 10, yeah,
George, do you think is going to
get George the priority? Yeah? I
mean, it's just the politics of
the game, man. And at least it
was back then, and I can even
remember I didn't have to do it,
but I know some of the other
promotion people did where they
would have to call a radio
station and say, Look, can you
put this is hypothetical, but
these sorts of situations
happen. I see you've got Steve
Warner at number seven and
George Strait at number nine.
Can you swap them? Oh, yeah,
that didn't happen. Or just
because the position you had in
the chart, you got more points,
and accumulatively, that could
bump you up even higher on the
so that kind of stuff went on. I
remember we had a mo Bandy
record. He was on curb slash
MCA, and we were told that don't
pay attention to mo just but
that song, it went up the
charts. It was a great song.
Yeah, it went up the charts
totally by itself. You know, I
don't know. I think maybe curb
had their own promotion people,
and they were, I don't know they
were out there pushing it, but
at MCA, we were told, yeah,
don't worry about it, yeah, just
ignore it. I think it was too
old to die young. That may have
been the song, and it just went
up there. I think it got to,
like, number four or something,
yeah. And we never touched it,
you know, oh yeah. Wasn't fair.
But why show biz
always heard that's what
happened with
David Allen co put out a single
Mona Lisa lost her song, oh
yeah. Great song, yeah. Great
song, Columbia Records Yeah,
only went to number two, and it
got stalled out by, from what I
understand, an Eddie Raven song,
which I love. Eddie Raven, it
may have been, I got Mexico. It
may have been that one. Yeah, I
can't remember the record from
Electra to RCA and when it was
on RCA, okay, when he went to
RCA, that was, I got Mexico on
RCA, yeah, I can't remember what
record was out by him at the
time, but it had stalled. But
then RCA did some armoring and
got it to number one, and it
bumped. And CO has always had
just, he's always that's been a
sore subject with
that guy forever. Yeah, that was
such a different song for CO.
Oh,
I mean, it was out of the Yeah,
like, when I first heard it, I
thought that's David.
Oh, I know, yeah. I mean, he had
some lush or orchestration and
stuff. Well, he sang it very
well, yeah, really? I mean, CO
is kind of an acquired taste
when it came to vocals, kind of
like Steve Earle, yeah, they,
but, yeah, he, you know, you
didn't really want to hear
anybody else singing,
no, that's the whole thing with
that dude. I, I to this day, you
know, when we had Gary Gentry in
here. You know he's talking
about Garth Brooks doing the
ride. To me, that's
sacrilegious. I only want to
hear David Allen COE sing the
ride. Yeah,
there are certain songs I've
never really been a fan of other
artists covering big hits. Me
either. I mean, there are some
exceptions to that. Yeah, but,
but, yeah, nobody else should do
the ride.
Well, it's like Waylon and
Willie. I love both of them, but
that when they covered Take,
take it to the limit. No, yeah,
I know, yeah. There's no way
you're gonna improve on that
tune.
Yeah, you know, I thought
Travis tritt though did improve
on
an eagle Son, take it easy.
Yeah, he did. Yeah, that's what
I was just going to mention. I
like Travis's version.
I did too. Yeah, I did too. And
I've liked Steve Earle has done
some covers that I like. He did
a great cover of the stones
before they make me run, which
was a Keith Richards song. And
he also did a great version of
Honey, don't that was on the
Beverly Hill belief soundtrack
that he did with Joe Walsh. But
great version of that song.
Well, I liked Clint Black's
version of Desperado. I thought
he he did an okay job on that. I
thought Linda Ronstadt did. Yep.
Linda Ronstadt. I mean, you
know, you talk about singing
phone books. She could
have done that. Oh, she could,
and all of her covers were
usually great,
yeah. And I, you know, I loved
her Nelson Riddle albums I did,
where she did a lot of the
states new, yeah, the standards,
just, you know, one of those
versatile artists that could
sing anything. Millsap was that
way. Glean Campbell was that
way, yeah, not everybody can
sing anything. No, you know, no,
they sound good in one
particular, you know, niche. And
nothing wrong with that.
Well, I did, like, was Willie
Nelson's Star Dust, yeah, it was
a great
Yes. It was, yeah. What that
thing was it like, number one
or, well, I know it was on the
charts for like, five
years. Oh, it was, yeah, crazy.
It was just a great record, and
he did such a great job of
covering those tunes.
One of the last people that
comes to mind I should have like
been bigger is Tim McGraw.
Should have been bigger. You
know, my first exposure to Tim
McGraw when I was doing
concerts, way back when I booked
Tim McGraw in a nightclub in
Louisville, Kentucky, before he
was Tim McGrath, yes, he was on
curb records and booked him for
3500 bucks. He and his band came
to this, you know, we did this
event at this bar in Louisville,
and Tim was a little, he was a
little chunky. Then, you know,
kind of baby faced, you know,
not, you know, he's all, he's
party now, yeah, but, yeah, he
and his band, you know, went
out, had dinner with him and
stuff. I mean, you know, really
fun guy. His band was great.
Bunch of good guys. They let me
hang on the bus with him for
most of the most of the time
before and after the show. But
he had told me that, you know,
just talking about the biz and
stuff, and he was frustrated.
He's like, you know, curb just
didn't work. And for me, and
they, they've told me, my next
release is a hit or, you know,
they're going to cut me.
That's gonna be a great feeling.
Yeah.
And
it was about a few months later
Indian outlaw came out, yes. And
there you have it, after the
races, I had him booked for the
Wisconsin State Fair in
Milwaukee for 7000 and of
course, that was, I think the
show in Louisville was like, in
May or June or something. The
Wisconsin State Fair gig was in
August. And by then he had
started to, you know, to rock
it. And so we canceled on this.
You know, he wasn't gonna play
anywhere for no seven grand.
Hey, that's, that's show
business, business, you know, I
didn't take it too personally,
but, but yeah, so, you know, and
he played Indian outlaw at the
show that we had done, yeah, and
and again, most of the odd, it
was a pretty good little crowd,
but not anybody really knew who
he was, you know, because he
hadn't broken through yet. But
there were a couple, don't take
the girl, he's saying that, and
that got a huge response from
the crowd there. Indian outlaw
was kind of, yeah, yeah. But
it's interesting how what what
hits and what doesn't. Well, you
can usually tell by a live like
a live appearance like that,
yeah, you can I remember the
first time I heard Copperhead
road by Steve Earle. Yeah, I
knew that was going to because
the way, because I saw it
performed twice, once solo and
then another time with the full
band. This is before it came
out. I saw it with a full band,
the place erupted. And I
thought, Man, this is going to
be a powerful
song. That song explodes. Oh,
does it. And what a great
record,
Tony brown production, man, you
know, knew how to knew how to
get the most out of that song,
you know. And I've already told
the story on another podcast of
when I first saw him do that in
front. Of a bunch of bankers,
you know, yeah, just him, you
know, and and that mandolin.
What a strange What a strange
place that takes. Steve Earle,
yeah. Well, who else have you
been around that was like,
future greatness? Oh, wow. As
we're pivoting, we've been
around people that should have
been great. Who have you been
around like, you know, you were
around Tim McGrath before he was
great.
Well, I was also worked for an
agency on Music Row that did the
country showdown, which was a
talent contest. It was the
Wrangler country showdown for
years, yeah. Then True Value
Hardware took it over, and GMC
truck was a sponsor, and
whatnot. Anyway, when we would
go around the country with that
thing, with this talent show, we
would book backup bands in the
respective venues where we went
a lot of a lot of county fairs,
things like that. Well, the
Oklahoma show, this was, oh
gosh, 8788 maybe. Anyway, the
Oklahoma show. Garth Brooks was
the backup man. I didn't do
that. We had another producer
that did it. I wasn't around him
then. But, you know, they had
said how the producer is still a
good friend of mine had said
that they were that Garth
couldn't have been any nicer,
and just, you know, really was
in showed a lot of empathy for
the contestants and stuff,
because he was trying to be an
artist. Oh, yeah, you know,
I loved Garth Brooks first
records. That's when I really
dug him, like, if tomorrow never
comes, those
type of tunes, yeah, those, uh,
those ballads before he started
doing and doing fever.
Well, you know, two girls that I
really predicted fame for, and
it ended up happening. One was
Lori Morgan, because I worked a
show with her when I was playing
music. I opened for her. It was
really weird. It was like at a
naval base in Savannah, Georgia,
and she was nice as could be
beautiful. But what really
struck me, I dug her voice
because she had that Husky she's
just got this husky voice that I
just love. And I kept telling
people I said she's going to be
huge. I don't think so. You know
George Morgan's daughter? Yeah,
real hard for fo baby, yeah,
but, man, she did. She took off.
She became huge, and I still am
a fan. I love her voice. Anytime
I hear her sing. Another one was
Pam Tillis. I was working at a
radio station, and she had put
out this song. There goes, my
love, an old country standard
that she had redone. It was on
Warner Brothers, and nobody
thought she was going to and
that song was great. It never
did anything, but I fell in love
with her voice. And, man, she
ended up becoming a huge country
star. Well,
you know, I work for, you know,
I do work for other country
stations around the country, one
of which is in the cookville,
Livingston, Tennessee area. And
there's a venue there called the
Live Oak Event Center in it's
not live oak. Anyway, there's a,
there's a, it's a listening room
in Livingston, Tennessee, yeah,
iron and oak Event Center, I
believe it's called, but anyway,
they have a monthly show there
called americanaville. I like
that. And Pam Tillis was the one
of the acts here a month or two
ago. Oh, I would love to see
that, yeah. And I, you know, and
I did phone interviews with her,
and I've met her a number of
times before at her Christmas
show that was at City winery in
Nashville, yeah. But anyway,
hung with her for a while after
the show and stuff. Got photos,
and you mentioned Laurie Morgan.
She is going to be appearing at
that venue in October, and you
can sit as close as we are in
this place. Wow. All right. I
mean, it is a nice listening
room, and the artists will
mingle with you and all that
stuff. So we need to make a
date. Johnny B, yeah, we do.
Well, let go see that. Well,
I'll tell a story here that
this, maybe this is why she was
an ex wife. But I was married to
a woman that she was Catholic,
and we went to a Catholic
service up in Madison,
Tennessee, and as we get into
the church, I noticed Lori
Morgan's there, and I can tell
Lori Morgan is waving to my then
wife. And I said, Lori Morgan is
waving to you. And she said, Oh,
I used to take her to school. I
thought, well, wow, that's a
small world. So anyway, we sit
behind Lori mor she was married
to Sammy Kershaw the time, and
they were in the front pews, and
we were behind them. Lori turns
around, starts talking to my
then wife.
I'm waiting to be introduced.
Never, never happens. And we go
outside, and I said, you know,
it would have been nice to get
to meet Lori Morgan, Oh, you
wanted to meet her. Well, duh.
You know
what happens when I what I do,
and I'm in situations, nobody
thinks to introduce me. I go,
Hi, I'm the chump. And it makes
a person that you know doesn't
introduce makes them, puts it
all, puts a spotlight on them. I
should have done that. Yeah, I'm
just sitting here, that chump.
Nice to meet you.
It's just me. Johnny B
Oh, that's just me. But anyway,
I had
an experience in Vegas when I
was in my studio is like a
fishbowl production studio, and
all these people started walking
down the hallway, and one guy
had this really long hair and
everything, and we had people
like that coming in all the
time. And, you know, for some
reason, I was kind of paid
attention to these people. I was
like, There's something about
them. They went in there, did
their interview, and they left.
I asked the producer. I said,
Who was that? Like, oh, they're
in some movie that's coming out.
What's the movie? My Big Fat
Greek Wedding. It was John
Corbin Neo var dollars, all the
bit, all the cast that you know
it. But right before the movie
came out, like, a month or two,
it came out, and I'm like, oh,
okay, well, good luck with them.
But something made me like, go,
oh, there's something about that
was weird. Yeah, you know, you
just knew, like, a little gut
feeling. Was it an IT factor
thing? I know, because I didn't
get a good look at that, okay? I
just felt like, you know, like
God was turning my head. Like,
pay attention to those people.
You don't remember them.
What happened to us one time, it
was another wife, not the one I
was just talking about, one
before her.
We got a calculator.
You do with Johnny's,
sorry calculus. I have a bad
matrimonial history. But anyway,
this this ex wife and I, we were
married at the time, but we were
at Houston's. It used to be this
great restaurant called West End
in Nashville, and we had gone at
a time when there nobody was
there except one other couple,
and my wife at the time goes, I
think that's Steve Earle at the
other table where, and I looked,
and I went, Yeah, it is him. It
was around the time of exit
zero, 87 Yeah, I was in 87
getting ready to be 88 I think
he was, but, and it must have
been his son, maybe Justin,
whichever son it was, he was
like, just making a mess. He was
throwing, you know, napkins
everywhere, and Steve wasn't
paying attention. Steve was
bitching about MCA, yeah,
because we could hear
everything. Steve was real loud.
And I think he was with, he
wasn't with his wife. He was
with a girl that ended up being
his wife. I think Theresa
ansonette, it used to be. She
found a she she signed Guns and
Roses. She was with Geffen
Records. Oh gosh, and they were
dating on the sly, and it was
them. They were having dinner
together, and Steve was bitching
about MCA. But my, my wife at
the time, she goes, You gotta go
talk to him. I said, No, for one
thing, they're eating. For
another, he's not in a good
mood, so I don't think he's
gonna be real up for a guy
going, Hey, man, love your
music.
Will you sign my menu?
Would you sign this napkin that
your son just threw on the
floor?
Yeah? You remember when
Harrington vineyards came about.
Yes, kicks Brooks, right, yes.
And I ran into him at Vanderbilt
stadium on a football game. And
he's walking everybody, I think
we were getting to our seats
before the football game. I
which we had gone there, like
the weekend before, really,
really enjoyed it. We were kind
of becoming wine aficionados or
whatever. And I go running up to
him. I'm like, Hey, mind you,
I'm not, you know, remotely
impressed by celebrities at this
I've met enough of them, right,
right? But he kind of, he turned
around, looked at me. He's a
tall dude, and he could tell the
look on his face like, oh gosh,
you just tell he's like, okay,
here it comes. I said, I love
your wine. And all of a sudden
he's like, thanks, man,
completely changed the dynamics.
Like that really is good to say
if you hear because it was a new
venture for him. Yeah, you know
what I mean. So maybe next time
you you know,
Hey, man, I don't know what
you'd say to Steve.
Love your movie.
Love that leaves the grass, but
yeah, that's one thing you never
want to do. That's one thing I
do. People have asked me, Well,
what? Why didn't you get a
picture with them? Oh, see, I
just don't I. Don't, don't play
the germ. Yeah? So that's why I
went wrong with Waylon Jennings.
I really didn't know for him,
one, I didn't know what Waylon
was going to talk to me. It was
in a business meeting situation.
I was a nobody, yeah? And I
thought he's not good. I wasn't
prepared. And when he I think I
know you from somewhere, and all
I did was, you don't know me,
but man, I dig, I dig Willow
wolf survive. I said, it's a
great record. Just want to tell
you, I love your music. And for
some reason, that did not sit
with and he avoided me the
entire time. I probably should
have lied and said, you know, we
met one time we were buying some
of that booger sugar, you know,
but I didn't go down that road.
Didn't want to lie. We
actually had Lee Allen Baker on
the small town podcast about,
probably about a year ago. She's
an actress. She's moved here
from California. She's a big
she's on a speaking circuit now,
speaking against all the things,
why she moved from California,
essentially, very conservative
values, those kinds of things.
But she was on the podcast, and,
you know, they're a client, I'm
a vendor. I don't, you know if
there's somebody of note, and be
like, Hey, man, you mind if I
get a picture? You know, I'll
kind of, I may do that, but I
haven't done that. But she
actually, she's like, you want a
picture, too? I'm like, Yeah,
sure. Why not? That's cool. Took
a picture with her, and she had,
she taught me how to pose.
So, you know, wow. I was at a
Lyle Lovett recording session at
soundstage studio. And they
were, they were overdubbing
backing vocals. I want to say
Harry Stinson was, what a great
was one of the guys doing
backing. But anyway, sitting
there in the in the studio, and,
you know, like, love studios,
there's these couches and stuff,
kind of behind the console and
stuff, you know, where you just
come in and relax and listen to
what's going on. And I'm sitting
on a pretty long couch, and
there is a woman sitting on the
other end of the couch, and she
had a ball cap on and was
dressed very just kind of
frumpy, you know, just casual.
And we started kind of chatting
a little bit about things. Never
introduced ourselves. We're just
kind of chatting, and I don't
even remember about what in
particular. But anyway, Lyle
comes in, and they're listening
to stuff and going over some
things. But anyway, before they
do that, he comes into where
we're sitting, and the woman
stands up and gives Lyle this
big hug, and it was Linda
Ronstadt. And you know, she had
no makeup on. Just had the ball
cap that I didn't, I didn't
reckon and quite frankly, you
know, I was kind of caught not
to ogle or stare at women in
particular. So I never really
did. It was kind of dark, you
know, studios, it's kind of
dark, darkly lit in there
anyway, right? So I never really
gave her a good look. But then
what I realized who it was. I'm
like, you know, but, and I
never, I never say because they
started giving all chatty and
stuff, and I never did want
anyone that's like, muscle in
and introduce myself while
they're talking like you were at
the at the Indy car race. Yes,
exactly I learned from that
experience. You got to seize the
moment.
That's right. Well, it's very
it. I was at MCA Records one
time, probably at the time you
were there, I was having to pick
up some records, yeah, that we
didn't get because we were a
small station, and I was in the
outer lobby, and all of a sudden
I see this girl coming out of
she was getting ready to come
into the lobby, and I didn't I
thought, Man, that girl looks
familiar, and it was Patty
Loveless, but she didn't have
any makeup on anything, and I
think she could tell I
recognized her, and I think it
bothered her, because she was
thinking, Oh God, my makeup,
yeah, so she like, ducked and
incognito, yeah,
exactly,
yeah. That wouldn't surprise me,
that kind of sounds, you know,
back then, Patty was extremely
shy, you know, she would, when
she would sit around you, she
would just be shaking. She was
so really,
yeah, always thought she was
such a pretty girl and such a
great talent. Well.
And I tell you, it is kind of
amazing that, well, you know,
you were talking about family
members as management. Her
brother, Roger Ramey was her
manager at the time, and me,
Roger was an okay guy, but he
was by no means a, you know, a
top tier manager. Let's just put
it that way. And I think that's
one of the things. I'll be
honest. Bowen didn't, he didn't
believe in patty. This was a
Tony brown thing, really. And.
And I think one of the things
that tone turned Bowen off was
the fact that her brother, who
was kind of a goob, was her
manager, you know, he just
didn't want fool with it. Yeah?
He just said, have time for
that.
That's why I understand about
Jimmy Bowen. He did not, he did
not care for goobs.
Yeah, he was no nonsense guy,
you know, only saw him get
pissed once we were in a
meeting, a promotion meeting.
And, you know, he was always
because he was stoned most of
the time, but he was always real
laid back and just smooth and
relaxed and but, boy, he really
jumped on one of our promotion
people. He was a retail
promotion guy named Mark Maynard
who passed away suddenly. He's
young man too here a few years
ago, sad, sad stuff. But anyway,
he jumped on all over Mar I
mean, it was like it was, you
know, Jekyll and Hyde man. I had
never seen him just really get
on somebody, yeah, especially in
a meeting in front of everybody
else, and all the rest of us are
kind of looking at each other
like, God, dang. Have you ever
heard him go off like, I mean,
we were all stunned that he
really lost it.
I've heard both stories about
him that he could either be
really cool or be pretty
vicious.
Well, he was, he was definitely
cool, and he helped me with a
personal issue that I've always
been thankful for. I too have
one ex wife and
show off. Yeah, no.
Anyway, when, when we moved up
to Nashville. Anyway, we we
divorced when we got up here,
and I needed some I needed some
representation. Attorney wise,
and Bowen
got an attorney for me
and to help me with all this
stuff. And the attorney didn't
charge me a dime. I won't say
who the attorney was, but he was
a powerhouse. He was a Watergate
attorney. Man, yeah, and it was,
it was pretty god was looking
out for you. It was a pretty
cool it was a pretty cool
experience.
But anyway, I mean, that's the
kind of age out of this thing.
Yeah, that's
the kind of guy Bowen was,
though, for his, for his people,
yeah, you know, that's what you
want, you know, because I went
to him, you know. And it's
almost back then, it was almost
like going to the Pope, you
know. You know his, his
secretary, exactly, his
secretary. Abby deumbrian was
his assistant, his secretary,
administrative assistant, back
then. She was the gate. Yes, she
was, you know, and I went to
Abby. I said, Man, you know, I
got a personal issue. I think
maybe Bowen might be able to
offer me some advice. Anyway,
you know, got in to see him and
told him what was going on. And
he says, Oh, you need a real
Bulldog, huh? I say, Yeah. He
says, I got just the guy for you
and set that up for me. And, you
know, help me with my situation,
wow. And, and the attorney
didn't charge me one penny. Wow,
yeah. I mean, that's the kind of
clout Bowen had, man, see, I
needed somebody like, you know,
if you were an FOB friend of
Bowen, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was
carte blanche with, you know,
with certain
things, yeah, I bet Steve Earle
wasn't part of those fobs. Was
he
probably not. Well, I tell you
what, though Bowen did like, he
liked Steve Earle, did he Oh
yeah, yeah, he did. He just
thought that he had some there
was a raw energy about him. Oh,
yeah, he really liked, but yeah,
again, just trying, as we've
said, you know, is he country?
Is he rock and roll, you know,
Donnie and Marie, you know, a
little bit country, yeah, rock
and roll. But he, you know, he
just really, you know, square
peg, round hole, man, from a
promotion standpoint, yeah, he
was tough to
well, and country radio was much
different then. I mean, it was
like, like you said, it was
going through a transitional
period, because you were, you
were kind of coming off the
afterburn of Merle, haggard
Waylon, Jennings all that, and
going into a new phase with
George Strait and and then Steve
Earle and Lyle Lovett and Nancy
Griffith just couldn't, yeah,
just different, yeah, because
Dwight Yoakam, I honestly didn't
think Dwight Yoakam was going to
make it personally, because I
got to hear his album before it
came out, and somebody asked me,
said, What do you think of this
guy? And I said, it's retro, but
doesn't do much for me. I ended
up really liking Dwight Yoakam
there. There was a competition,
if you will, between Steve Earle
and Dwight Yoakam. Oh, yeah, in
terms of promotion. And in fact,
Bowen used to make a joke how he
would pay somebody. He would
give somebody 5000 Dollars, if
they would get a picture of
Dwight Yoakam without his hat,
because they all thought he was
bald, you know, and he was,
yeah, you know, it was just kind
of a friendly joke in jest kind
of thing. But there was a, there
was certainly a rivalry there.
Well, I heard trying to get, you
know, because I would have radio
guys tell me, Well, I would play
Steve Earle, I would play Dwight
yocomb, but I ain't gonna play
them both. Yeah, again, stupid
reasons. Oh, and radio people
come up with but they only felt
that they thought that they were
similar in in genre, I guess
because they were a little
different for the
time. Well, them, and it was
really weird, Randy Travis got
thrown in that group too. Yeah,
it was Randy and Dwight and
Steve. They called them new
traditionalists. Yeah, Steve was
not a tradition. Oh, no at all.
No, not at all. You
know, he had some songs that had
steel guitars and stuff in them.
Well, sure, he was no I remember
from exit zero, number 29 is the
name of a song. Oh, I love that.
The lyrics to that are just
brilliant. Oh, they are that.
But yeah, Steve traditionalist,
now, yeah, I remember the first
time I heard or Randy Travis. I
had a promo copy of a cassette
from a movie soundtrack. I don't
even remember the movie, but
Randy Travis was part of that
had a cut on the soundtrack for
this film. And I remember
mentioning to my Warner rep at
the time, who the hell is that
guy? I thought he just had a he
sounded terrific, yes, and the
wreck and the record, I can't
talk the record rep didn't know
who he was. That was before they
had even, right? You know, had
storms of life, you know, all
that had come down the pike
yet. Well, he was playing at the
Nashville Palace forever. He was
a dishwasher, yeah? And he
would, he would sing, and he
went by different names, like
Randy trewick,
yeah, that's his real name,
yeah, treywick. But I remember
Demi mosesman was my Warner
Brothers rep, and he's like, I
don't know who that couldn't
tell me anything about him,
yeah, because they haven't, you
know, didn't push him to the to
the reps yet. But it's again,
you know the pendulum man, you
know the Zach top is out there
now, country artist, yes, who
comes from the Bluegrass world,
right? Because he's been playing
bluegrass since he was a little
kid. I really like, like, what
he's doing, yeah, but I'm, I
respect a lot of what considered
modern country, you know, I
think there's room for all of
it, but I am more of a
traditionalist at heart, you
know, I am too, you know, I'd
like, man, give me the fiddles
in the steel guitar. Oh, me too.
I do love the twin fiddles,
especially, you know, I mean,
you're looking at a guy that
will still throw in a Bob Wills
CD, you know, yeah, because I
just, I just love the western
swing. And I recall, there. You
remember the play a wolfies down
on lower broad? Yes, I do. They
used to have a western swing
night there, and Stuart Duncan,
and a lot of these just
fantastic Nashville session guys
would get together there on it
was like, Tuesday nights or
something, oh yeah, and play
nothing but western swing. And
it was the best damn stuff that
that you've ever heard.
Man, well, that's the great
thing about Nashville, and
that's what makes Nashville so
magical, is that there are great
places like that, like you have
the Bluegrass Inn, which? Man,
you have some great bluegrass.
Fact, no one really knew about
Dale McCarthy until, you know
they see him at the Bluegrass
Inn. You know, just some great
music. You know, the station in,
you know, has a bluegrass night
jam, a jam night on Sunday
nights at seven o'clock, free.
And you can go in there and
just, you know, your jaw will
drop for three hours. It's like,
you know, these short, fat guys
that are about 70 years old, get
in there and tear stuff up, man.
Guys that you know, who are
these people? And it's just
amazing.
Well, I walked in, and probably
the last story we'll have, but I
walked into 12th and Porter, one
time I was going to see a band
of guy that used to work at the
radio station kept telling me
about his band, so I thought,
well, I'll go check these guys
out. I was single at the time,
and I walk in, and, I mean, the
place is packed. When I can't
find a place to park, I'm
thinking, Wow, these guys must
be great. And I walk in, and
there's a guy at the front door,
and he doesn't take any cover
from me, and I'm thinking, wow,
this is wild. Place is packed. I
can barely walk. I go into the
club, and all of a sudden I'm
hearing some of the best blues
guitar I've ever heard in my
life. The thing is, I'd hit the
wrong night. I got the night
mixed up. This was Charlie Dan.
Daniels, Oh, wow. Charlie
Daniels was jamming. He was
doing some special thing at the
club. He was doing like a Stevie
Ray Vaughan song. And, I mean,
just smoking it. I'd never heard
Charlie Daniels really play
guitar. The dude was blowing me
away. That's the great thing
about Nashville, is that things
like that happen. You'll go see
somebody here. It'll be
impromptu, or you're not
expecting it's just, that's why
I love Nashville. It's a very
magical place as far as music
goes, I think, yeah,
sometimes, as you say, somebody
will jump out of the crowd, you
know, or maybe you're there to
see somebody that's pretty
unknown, yes, but you know,
Jason al Dean's in the crowd,
yeah, you know, he'll jump up
and sing us. You know, it's just
that kind of stuff happens. It
does. You know, not many cities
where you can say that, other
than Nashville, that's
very true. And you know, magical
things happen here too, on
circling the drain that they do,
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