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Where food opens the door to conversations about craft, culture & tradition.
Darina Allen - The Wild Kitchen Podcast
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Tiffany Bader: [00:00:00] Welcome to the very first episode of The Wild Kitchen. I am Tiffany Bader. I couldn't imagine having anyone more fitting to join me in this first episode than Darina Allen. Darina has long been a guiding light in the world of food. As a founder of. Ballymaloe Cookery School. She's champion seasonal and wild foods preserved, forgotten cooking skills, and inspired generations of cooks and eaters around the globe.
For me, Darina's influence has been deeply personal. Her work sparked my own passion for learning old traditions, for seeking out self-sufficiency, and for passing this knowledge onto others. She was the very first person I hope would join me here, and I feel so grateful that she said yes. So with that, it's my absolute honor to welcome Darina Allen to the Wild Kitchen.
Well, I'm absolutely thrilled. I had no idea this was the, the first episode or anything, so. Well, I'm [00:01:00] absolutely delighted you've been chosen and thank you. I'm thrilled to hear I've been a little influenced, uh, on your, do you have the Forgotten Skills book or something like that? I do, yes. Did you see it?
So if you notice, oh, it's good. It looks like it's falling apart as well. It it is. It really truly is. So this is one of my fa like I have quite. Quite a large collection of, uh, cookbooks. Um mm-hmm. I like, I like a certain style of cookbook, but I have to say this one is probably the most used, most loved book in that entire collection.
It, it has duct tape here on the, on the spine. Oh. But thank you. 'cause this, this book, it, I think I read it at a time, it came out in 2009. Is that right? Yeah. I can't remember. It's been republished and republished and republished. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah, it came out at a time. I think that was really important for me.
I had just had my first child, I, uh, was, I had been working in commercial kitchens. I had gone through, uh, cooking school and [00:02:00] I had sort of gone down a path of this is what kitchens are like and this is what it's like to work in kitchens. And then I read your book and I had my first child and I thought, wait a second.
It doesn't need to be like this. Like all these experiences I had as a child, like foraging and, you know, picking mushrooms and digging clams on the beach and eating food that was. Like it was simple and it was real food. Um mm-hmm. You, you sparked that in me and I just, it set me on a totally different path.
Um, so I, I'd like to know the first, uh, first thing I'd like to know, did you have someone that. That sparked that in you? Yeah. So basically I come from Ireland. I, uh, is an island leader for start, and ICI come from the country. I was, uh, born in a little village in the Midlands of Ireland in county leash.
And my, I'm the eldest of nine children and my mother absolutely loved to cook. And so, uh, there was always cooking going on in our [00:03:00] house with nine of us, as you can imagine. And also there was a kitchen garden and we had a house cow and. All that sort of thing. So that was my childhood. That was my norm, if you know what I mean.
And so I, I learned how to make things like bread and various things like that just by osmosis, you know, mommy made bread almost every day, so I just, I, nobody ever said this is how to do it. She just walked, it just was just going on around you. And then I went to, went to the look at the school, and then when I went to.
Boarding school, uh, in Wicklow at the other side of the country in my teens because there was no really good school close to us. So, and there was the Dominican nuns and they were always considered to be very visionary nuns. And, um, so they were at that time, in the early sixties, probably before you were born, uh, they were actually encouraging us girls to have a proper.
Career, you know, to be, do science, do medicine, do architecture, do law, and so on. And, um, because at that time not many women didn't have careers. You know, they was more traditionally got married and looked after your children, et cetera. And so [00:04:00] anyway, all I wanted to do was to cook or to garden because, uh.
Both my grandparents had wonderful gardens and everything, and so the nuns, I can tell you didn't think much of that. I remember they were saying, you're never going to need that, my dear. You know, you'll have your, you'll have a cook and you'll have somebody to look after your grounds and so on. And anyway, I persisted and um.
Very close to the end of the course. Um, they were, you know, getting exasperated, but they said, okay, if you insist it must be a degree in horticulture or a degree in hotel Doinament. So I chose hotel management and went to the hotel school in Dublin. I called Bruce. There were just two good ones in Ireland at that time, and that was one of them.
So I got in there. Uh, and, uh, only on the second attempt, I can tell you actually. But anyway, I did eventually, and then at the end of my, uh, course there, uh, basically, uh, I again, same dilemma. Uh, now what to do now, what to do now. So at that time, men were chefs and women couldn't get into top kitchens, and all I want [00:05:00] to do is to cook and learn more, learn more, and so on.
And, uh, then, so I, I. And you never know in your life what's the little thing that's going to change the course of the rest of your life. And in my case, it was one, virtually everybody else in my, uh, class had already got jobs. And the sort of job you get, you see, uh, having done that, uh, a hotel management would be, you'd have a, uh, you get a job in one of, as an assistant manager in one of the top.
Hotels in Dublin or London or whatever. And so, and you'd have a lovely little uniform and a badge with your name on it. You'd be feel very important as far as I was concerned. It was another name for slave. But anyway, uh, I, I definitely didn't want that. So anyway, I met one of the senior lecturers in the corridor one day.
And she said to me, why haven't you got a job yet? Everybody else in your class is a job. I said, well, I, I, what? I want to learn how more, I want to learn how to more to cook, you know, more exotic things. I mean, souffles and rine and Pats all sounded very exotic at that time. And, uh, she. [00:06:00] Uh, and I said, I want to learn more about fresh herbs and about homemade ice cream and things like that.
And so anyway, she told me I was far too fussy and why couldn't I be like the rest of them and get a job as an assistant manager? But anyway, uh, but then she said, funny. She said, I, I had, uh, dinner with some friends a couple of nights ago, and they were talking about this woman down in Cork, this extraordinary woman called Myrtle Allen, who's opened a restaurant in her own house out in the country, miles from the Cork city.
And she writes the menu every day, depending on what's, you know, fresh in the gardens and they live the close to sea. So, you know, whatever lovely fresh fish comes in from the boats and so on. And, uh, at that time, remember now when restaurants opened, uh, first of all was men were chefs. When restaurants opened, they wrote the menu and it could be the same 10 years later.
So the whole idea of writing a menu every day was considered to be super amateurish. But I thought, oh my God, this is amazing. She cooks with the seasons. You see all these. Sort of things farm to table. They weren't, those expressions [00:07:00] weren't even, uh, you know, invented or from scratch. So anyway, she and I said, oh my God.
And she said, oh, she, and she makes homemade ice cream 'cause they have their own jersey hard. And, uh, she, you know, the, all the, so anyway, I couldn't, I couldn't believe my ears. It was just like, and, and they have a walled garden, so lots and lots of fresh herbs and everything. Couldn't be my ears. And she, she couldn't remember the name of the woman.
And oh, I, and I, I mentioned Martha's name earlier, but she couldn't remember her name. And she, but she said I'd go back to my friend and ask her, um, and, and I said, oh my goodness, that would be wonderful. So she went back and she came, I met her a few days later and she gave me a piece of paper and she said.
Uh, she, and she said, this is the name of that woman, write to her. And the name on the piece of paper was Myrtle Allen and Myrtle later became my mother-in-law. So I became a member of the family by the simple expedient of marrying the boss's son. I, I wrote to her and she said, oh, I've got children your age and everything.
And little did she know I'd. I'd run off with her son. But anyway, there you are. So I met this woman [00:08:00] who, um, had absolutely no training who cooked the food that she knew and loved, that she would normally cook for her family and their friends if they came for dinner and so on. And it all depended on what was lovely and good and freshest in the garden, the greenhouses.
They also had a horticulture leader, uh, or what lovely fresh fish came in from the boats in nearby valley cotton in the evening. And, uh, you know, it was wonderful. I, you know, I found. This woman who taught me the opposite of practically everything I learned in hotel school, but totally reinforced my mother's values around food.
And, uh, so I was like a sponge. I soaked everything up and uh, every day we cook something different. And can you imagine that for a learning environment? Because basically nowadays, you know, a lot of people when they work, when they're in restaurant kitchens, you have a menu, a set menu, and you get really good at that.
But it might be 30 or 40 dishes if you're lucky. But we had something different every day, you know? For year round. So that was fantastic. Uh, so that, that's where I started. And, [00:09:00] um, uh, and then I, uh, I What happened after that then? Yeah. So anyway, that I, yeah. Ask another question. Okay. Tia, I guess, I guess, uh.
Two, two questions. Did, did everyone at the hotel management school think you're crazy for, for going to work with Merle? Well, they probably thought I was rather unambitious, you know? Okay. Um, you know, why did I want to just cook? But see the whole reason why I did that. Oh yeah. The other thing was, you see I couldn't do a chef's course.
All of the nuns wouldn't hear about their Jewish chefs. Uh, course something. 'cause that was, uh, you know, chefs. Cooks and chefs were looked down on almost at that time, was of lesser value than management was kind of potter. Mm-hmm. And, uh, so, uh, the, so there's very little cooking in, in the, um, you know, there was very, very little cooking in the, uh, even in the hotel management thing.
So that's, I really wanted learn more. But anyway, there we are. Uh, the only skill I have is. How to cook. I often used to joke about it, [00:10:00] the one skill that nuns taught us of no value really. And I've had such an interesting, fun life and you know, had so many opportunities to do television, write books, and all the rest have travel all over the world.
So I always say to my students, now, you know, it doesn't matter what you do, whether you're nasa. To not, or a doctor of astrophysicist, you need to stop and learn how to cook because if you can cook, you'll never be short of friends. You, it's one of the easiest ways to win friends and influence people. You know, you can bring joy everywhere you go.
Uh, just make sure they do the washing up anyway. Exactly. Um, also, and. I, I think it, I think it might, might actually be the most important skill. I find it troubling that, that schools don't teach, they don't put such an emphasis. Emphasis is on. Yeah. And I, I think, and not to go down the route of feminism and, and that whole, uh, the.
It's where, where that has led women, I think it's done a massive, massive amount of good. And I'm not saying it's not good. Yeah. But I think [00:11:00] it did. But I mean, uh, did, did women get trapped, uh, totally with that in so many ways. Now there need to be all things to all men. Uh, well, or everybody, they need to look beautiful, be perfect, whatever, but great job.
Be able to entertain, cook. They need to be everything. Do everything now. So, uh, and in some ways they've fallen, you know, they've got the wrong end. They, they've got the hard end of the stick. But anyway, yeah. And I, I think for, for a while there it was. It was to be, uh, to be a feminist or to, you know, to move forward as women, you need to not do certain things.
Like yes. You can't like, don't, yeah. Don't, don't do anything that has to do with gardening or cooking. Yes. Or home things in the home. Right. It's math and science. Um, and even, I mean, I was born in 77. Uh, even for me going through school, um, I was in a bit of a transition period where. I, I would have arguments with my family and say, but yeah, I, I don't [00:12:00] want to do that.
I went to university. I, I studied, I studied things, and when I got outta it, I want to be a free woman and so on. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think truly being a free woman means I can make decisions and if I wanna cook, I can cook and, and good for you. Well, I, and I, I think, you know, again, re reading your book at, at that time it was.
Focusing on traditional, uh, skills and things like that, that I saw my grandmother do when I would, yes, I'd go to Nova Scotia in the summers and she was. She was the most amazing woman I've ever met. She'd get up early and bake bread every day and go out to the garden and, you know, work with her hands.
And, and then in the afternoon we'd go pick berries. And I just, she, she blew my mind that this woman could do so many things and she knew so many things, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I bet she was really happy too. Whatever it is that, you know, it, it, it doesn't do it for everybody, but no, for those. You know who enjoy it.
[00:13:00] My goodness. How wonderful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It was very fulfilling for her. Yeah. And, and for me, it was giving myself permission to allow these things to be fulfilling for me as well. I mean, I, I do, I do a lot of other things, but allowing those domestic. Cooking and gardening and providing for your family to be Yeah.
Um, yes, to be fulfilling, um, was super, I was really lucky in many ways too. Um, when I was a, a child, I just caught the end of ve era. I was born in 1948 and I just caught the end of ve era really to a great extent. I mean, at, at my, at when I was a child, you know, nowadays when children, they go to Spain or.
France or Italy or something for their holidays, you know, just jump on a plane, off they go. Uh, or at least some do. And um, so, but when I was, if you're, when I was a child, if you're going on holidays, it was a question of going to your relatives in county Ari to get a bit of fresh bul air or whatever for a couple of weeks.
So I would, I love to. [00:14:00] To my Aunt Lil and Uncle Bob. They had quite a big farm in Tipperary with a lot of bog land as well. So they used to cut and save turf for the fire. So I learned how to do that. And also they kept, of course, cows and pigs and, uh, chickens and all of that. So basically I learned how to milk a cow.
I learned how to make butter and uh, uh, you know, there, they had a dairy on the farm also. They had pigs. So learn how to, uh. Uh, they, they killed their own pigs and uh, then cured them. And I would help with all of that and everything. So I learned all of these amazing skills and actually the Forgotten skills book to a great extent incorporates some of these things in it.
Uh, when. And I, I remember in fact, the Forgot skills book was interesting. What really parti precipitated that was I was in the cooking school one day and, you know, we do courses of, of all lengths. But uh, basically, um, on the 12 week, uh, very intense tro course, I was about five weeks [00:15:00] into the course and I was in one of the kitchens and I suddenly see this girl with a bowl in her hand making a dash across the kitchen.
Now the students are taught in the morning if there are any scraps from their cooking, like little carrot peelings, or. Sprigs of herbs or something that they either put them into the stock pot or else if they don't qualify for the stock pott, they're go into the hems buckets and they, that is fed to the hems and comes back as eggs a few days later.
It's a sort of circular economy. Mary. Yeah, God. Anyway, she's making it with this bowl in her hand and she looked a bit flustered and I said, what's in the bowl? And, and she said, I'm going to get, I was whipping cream and it's gone all funny. I'm just gonna give it to the hens and that would normally be a virtue not to throw something out, you know?
But I said, no, no, hang on a minute now. So I looked into the Ballymaloe and the course she'd overco the cream and it is just starting to separate and going into butter. And I said, no, no, no, no. Don't turn that out. You just made butter. You're just about to make, so I put it back on the mixer, uh, Kendall mixer, and we whisked around for a minute, two, and then suddenly.
The butter fat, the [00:16:00] separated from the buttermilk. And there she, she was wide-eyed and I said, look, you made butter. At that stage, a whole lot of the class were also gathered around, and I suddenly realized that of course, these were students who, and they'd been with me for five weeks, how about that for a failure as I am, uh, that they didn't really, obviously they all knew there's.
Butter came from cream, but they had no idea how it had come from, uh, what had happened in the meantime. So they were all fascinated. And so I taught them how to finish it off, how to wash off the butter, sort it and so on. And they were absolutely thrilled. And now every day students make butter, actually, 'cause we have our own little Jersey heart here and everything.
But, um. So I suddenly thought, well, look, this is ridiculous. I mean, I'm honestly such a simple thing that gives so much joy. Uh, I just thought, uh, uh, and I, as I said, had caught the end of an era and learned how to make butter many years ago from my great Aunt Li. And so I showed, uh, they were, uh, I then thought, this [00:17:00] is it.
I must write a book and, uh, record all of these and many, many other. Things as well. So that was the actual, that was the, the impetus for the, the thing that actually got the whole forgot skills book started. Mm. And in many, many years before COVID hit too. I can only imagine. Yeah. During COVID, the demand for its completely sold out during COVID.
Yeah. All over the world. That book is actually sold all over the world. And it's one, um, I've written quite a lot of books. I think I've written 20 or 21 books. But anyway, that's the book. That very is often the absolute favor for so many people, and it keeps being republished. Republished, republished, republished.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny, during, during COVID the amount of phone calls and emails and friends that pop by and, okay. So, um, can you show me how to do this? Or can you show me how to do that? My job? Well, it's, it, it was funny, yeah. Things that, you know, even [00:18:00] a, a friend of mine told me one time that her daughter decided she didn't wanna eat chicken anymore because she found out that.
The chicken tenders that she eats are actually from a chicken breast and where that, that's actually part of a chicken. Like Yeah, they called it chicken. Yeah. But she wasn't able to put two and two together to realize that actually came from an animal. Yeah. So I think, yeah. You know, I mean, everybody's got so, so many, we got so squeamish and we know so little and probably the same in Canada.
It's really, um, very worrying that we know so little about how our food is produced and where it comes from. I think. Go ahead. So I, I think, I think we don't trust kids. I, in the same way that there's like kids meals and restaurants, I don't think we, we, uh, trust kids. To be intelligent enough and capable enough to, to be part of the process.
And I, I really strongly believe the sooner you get kids involved in the process connected, the sooner connected. Yeah. Yeah. I, it just, it doesn't become an issue. Um, I mean, it's amazing if you can teach children, [00:19:00] your children how to sow seed. And then it it, even if it's just on the windowsill or something and then it germinates and starts to grow and they're like utterly fascinated and then it grows into something they can eat.
And of course it's an incredibly important lesson because it does so many things. First of foremost, the magic of of actually being able to grow something to eat, et cetera, but also. It makes them realize how long it takes to grow something that it doesn't just appear on the supermarket shelf. And you know, I mean it could even be little salad leaves or something on the window sill, but carrots and Beecher, you know, that it take, I often say to people, do you know how, how long it takes to grow a bunch of carrots or beets or whatever?
And most people have no idea, but I, I'd say three months or two to four months depending. And so. Uh, in fact, yesterday I was speaking at a, uh, at a, they called it a climate carnival up in, in the Midlands. And I was speaking about actually food security. And, uh, you know, in all our countries now we're gonna see shortages, food shortages, and we [00:20:00] really want to ask ourselves, what if this happened?
What, how am I going to be able to feed my family if this supermarket shelves or. Bear. This sounds like conspiracy theory stuff, but I can tell you, uh, it's, it's, it's a conversation that needs to be had, uh, in everywhere really. But anyway, and I said to them, uh, the audience, um, of hundreds of people, um, how many of you know how long it takes to grow carrots or beets?
And one person put up their hand and said, I think about four months. And I said, well, you're right. Really? And tell me. Uh, we were also talking about the abuse of the supermarkets in, in some ways 'cause it also comes into to it, and I was just saying, Tammy, would you be happy, uh, to look after something for three or four months and be, and then just accept, you know, uh, 60 or 70 cents or 50 cents for it?
You know, it, it's absolutely ludicrous. It can't really good nourishing, wholesome food cannot. [00:21:00] B uh, uh, produced, uh, uh, for that price. I mean, we have to pay the farmers a fair price to produce nourishing, wholesome food for us, uh, and so on. And the supermarkets put over, I'm sure it's probably the same in Canada, but over here, this side of the world as well.
There's a sort of cheap food policy, disastrous, uh, I mean lots of people are, of course, are in a position that they can't spend more on their. Food than what they have. But basically everybody needs healthy, wholesome food because the less you spend on food, the in real food, the more you spend on meds.
And I mean all that research is there. Uh, so, uh, and then it comes back to even again, the importance of the skill of learning how to grow something. You can grow some of your own food is a real help. And, or, and learning how to cook. So all of our governments, I'm not sure what it's like in Canada, whether practical cookies embedded in the school curriculum or not.
No. But certainly it isn't over here. And you're lucky if there's a, a [00:22:00] very, you know, a kind of passionate teacher in your school who will teach the class how to mm-hmm. Uh, poke and so on. Uh, but basically it's crazy because. The main emphasis in education is on somehow rather, a set equipping the children with a set of academic skills and, you know, and, uh, practical skills are looked on as of lesser value.
Hello. You can't teach a flip maths book. Um, you know, the one thing we really need is to teach, uh, children how to. Give them the skills to feed themselves properly and so on so they can learn and, and concentrate. And so much depends on dinner, your energy vitality, your ability to concentrate and indeed the confidence to be able to ask your pals around for, to whip up a little spontaneous bit of supper or something.
What joy can that bring? Yeah, I think, I think the most important skill, and I, I mean I know I am, I know I'm skewed in on a certain side, but when I had my kids, my. [00:23:00] Prime focus for my kids was I want them to learn how to be good, polite human beings. They need to know how to grow food. Yeah. They need to know how to cook food and, and we also hunt and fish and Yeah.
Provided things, things go sideways if my kids can say thank you and please, and grow carrots and, and, you know, go hunt, gross. I feel like I've equipped them, they can figure out everything else. Right. Well, I think we're on the same wavelength, Katie. Fantastic. How fortunate your children are, uh, to, to learn these things and so on.
Good. Well, I, you know, it's, it's funny, I, especially with my son, because he was. He was a picky eat. I mean, he still is kind of a picky eater. Yeah. He um, he loves his potatoes and carbs and bread and things like that. Well, at least they're nutritious foods. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But getting him to eat vegetables was challenging.
So I, yeah. I decided that I was gonna get him to grow his [00:24:00] own vegetables and it was like a light went off in his head, wouldn't There you are. If they grow it. Yeah. They eat. Yeah. A hundred percent. Things they would never normally eat. You know, radishes, broccoli. Yeah. They grew it, they'll eat it. Yeah. And they'll also tell their friends about it.
Yeah. And so on. That's absolutely the key. Well done you. Yeah. Oh a hundred percent. And it's funny 'cause I would, you know, we, we'd go hiking a lot as a family and my husband is you six foot six big. Yeah, big man and he, he was quite fast. I tend to doddle a little bit. Yeah. Always looking around at the plants and trying to identify mushrooms and finding berries and, uh, we sort of both kind of come a little bit closer together, but my kids saw that and saw how I would proceed through the forest.
Yeah. And so they were always learning about different plants, so. And, uh, I realized that it was sticking with them one day when I got an email from the school saying that I was to instruct my children to stop telling the other kids at the school about [00:25:00] the edible plants that were growing at the school because the, they were.
Lunchtime. How short, how shortsighted of the school. I know, I know. We, we have, oh dear. Oh dear. Yeah, I, well, I guess they were teaching the other kids about these berries are edible and you can eat this plant, and Oh, there's some sorel there and thimbleberries there, and the kids were all eating them. Um, and the school did not like that at all.
The school was, was scared of insurances about that. But back to our earlier conversation about, mm-hmm. Food security. I mean, it's utterly essential. We do a lot of foraging here with the students as well. And of course it's, I mean, the word forging wasn't even invented when I was a child, but of course, foraging, eating forage foods was part of our childhood, but we didn't, you know, when the damsons were in season in the autumn and the hazelnuts and the slows and the wild mushrooms, we just ate them at that time.
A watercress early on in the year. Wild watercress. But we didn't call it foraging. I remember. Yeah, the first time I heard the word [00:26:00] foraging was in when I went to Canada, actually. Suk Harbor House. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Yes. I went to Sux Harbor House and uh, what's his name? Sinclair Phillips. There, uh, I remember we had lunch and he had an in-house forger.
Can you imagine at that stage. It's about 20 something years ago and, uh, I, we went foraging with them and then it opened my eyes to what's around us. And, uh, I ever since I've been on a whole journey and it's an endless journey. 'cause one learns more and more every time. It makes life so much more interesting.
Every time you go for a walk or for a drive, you, instead of just in being in a landscape and not paying any attention to it, you're sort of thinking, oh, what's that and what's this? And identifying it and all the rest it makes. So much, and then we, we share this knowledge with students, but the main reason, not the main reason, but, but another reason why.
I'm so keen on foraging is that basically nowadays so much of our food is nutritionally deficient because it's actually, uh, produced, [00:27:00] uh, very intensively, um, with the, and using a lot of chemicals a lot of the time. And so it's much less nutritious than it was in the 19. And they reckon that if our food now, most of our food on the supermarket shelves or any shelf has, uh.
It, you know, if, if it has 50% of the nutrients that had in the 1950s we're very lucky. So, you know, spinach things have a fraction of the art, et cetera. But, uh, so, 'cause most of the foods, commercial foods have been, you know, they continue to try, the most important thing is maximum yield. So the continued.
To adapt them and everything, but whereas foods in the wild have their full compliment of vitamins, minerals, tray elements, et cetera. So they're incredibly nutritious and good for us as well. And, sorry, uh, back to the, you know, we might well be glad to actually be able to identify things and you have lots of wonderful berries and things we don't have over here.
Yeah. So we, we have some things you have haven't, but we have, so that's [00:28:00] fantastic. Yeah. And I remember a Sinclair. Um, he, well, apart from being involved in trying to, uh, protect the, is it red? Five wheat? Is that a wheat? Yes, that's a, that's a local Canadian wheat. It was a, her heritage wheat that was under, I think it was under threat at that time.
Um, and, but also he was. Uh, uh, he also foraged for his, he di dived for his own scallops and things like that as well. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah, we we're pretty lucky here. We've got some amazing, amazing things. I mean, I was just, I was up in Southeast Alaska last week and within one day we were picking chantrell, uh, catching halibut.
We're catching wild coho spot prawns. Uh, so envious. So envious. Oh, it was, it was amazing. That was really wonderful. Actually, on the first day of the 12 week course here, the students, the first thing I do actually is I've. It sounds, this sounds so [00:29:00] hippie-ish actually. But, but I am an ancient hippie in many ways.
Uh, but anyway, I have a big wheelbarrow of soil there, just on the steps outside the green dining room, and they all gather around me on the first morning, you know, um, in a semicircle wondering what's coming. And, and I sort of, the first thing I do is I. I, I, I, uh, run my hands to the soil in the wheelbarrow, which is actually humus.
In fact, it's actually comes from the final stages of us making compost. And a lot of what's in the compost would've been some of the scraps that have gone down from the kitchens a year earlier down into the compost of compost down. I run my hands through and I say, what is this? And they're look thinking, well, we came to a cooking school, didn't see anything about this in the brochure now, and, and they're looking.
Some of them say soil. And in America you call what we call soil. We call it, you call it dirt now what you call it in Canada, what do you call soil in Canada with soil or dirt? Like dirt. Dirt. That, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, and I, and then I'm, you know, it's, we have wonderful living soil with lots of little wiggly [00:30:00] worms and everything, and I think, oh my God.
And then I. I say to them, do you know something? We are totally dependent on this three or four inches of soil around the world for our very existence that you know, these three or four inches of soil underneath our feet that we don't give a moments thought to. Because if. We don't have rich, fertile soil, we won't have clean water and we won't have good food.
And then think, oh my God, what's this about? You know? And then, but I have to shock them outta thinking that food is something that comes wrapped in plastic off a supermarket shelf. Yeah. I have to get them to think about. The soil about how food is produced, where it comes from the, the feed, the breed, et cetera.
And then I quote Lady Eve Bour, who is one of the founders of the Soil Association, who had many, many quotable quotes. But anyway, one of them is, remember the health of the soil, the health of the plant, the health of the animal, and the health of the human are all one and connected. So we are only. As well as we are because of [00:31:00] how rich and, and fertile that soil is and so on.
And so, uh, and then I would say to them, look what You're here now for three months, uh, in the middle and outta the country, in the middle of a hundred acre organic farm with ex, we have extensive gardens. It's a, a working bio, very biodiverse farm. I say, what I want you to do is to become super curious. I want you to look around you and say, do I know that name of that tree?
Do I know that shrub? What's that, uh, uh, uh, plant there? Can I eat it? I mean, I've got a one track mind. So, uh, I say, can I eat it? Common response. So I say to them, you know, you know, I want you to, to ask yourself. And then I say, tell me how many of you could name 10 native Irish trees, although we have students from all over the world, uh, or, or for any part of the, your country, 10 native trees.
Uh, it, it's, I don't know that ever. Any of the students have been able to, even if I said five, and then suddenly we realize that we move around in our environment without, in any way connecting to nature a lot of the time. And [00:32:00] so it, it, it opens their eyes, it gives them a whole new, uh, outlook on life. And, uh, then when they leave, I have three months to indoctrinate them.
And when they leave that they share their experience and their knowledge with other people, but both the cooking and the foraging and preserving everything else. Yeah. Oh, I think that, I think that's great. I, I, I start every day. Going out in my garden, stick my hands in the dirt. Yeah. It is the most grounding thing.
It makes you feel good. You see, like, I love, I don't know. I, I love looking at plants. I love Yes. Seeing the progress day to day. And I think it makes you a better cook. I, I really, truly believe that what grows together goes together. I mean, well, that's true too. Yeah, for sure. It really does. Yeah. And, and like, like you were saying before about, uh, nutrition wise, I don't.
Especially something like vitamin C. Yeah. The longer it's being stored, the less vitamin C is available. It just breaks down and freshness is incredibly [00:33:00] important. You're quite right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you were saying earlier there about your, one of your sons who doesn't like S very much, but I mean.
You know, there is the world of difference in flavor. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Between something you're pick in your own garden, bring it in, cook it, and something. So supermarket chef, I mean, I love romanesco and broccoli that we grow ourselves. Yeah. The children love it. Their friends whose who come to the house to for supper who would never dream of eating at home, they can't, they think, oh, it tastes so different.
Uh, but, and I. You know, when I taste broccoli, uh, when I taste vegetables off a supermarket shelf, I know exactly why kids won't eat them. Yeah, there's no way I would eat them either. A lot of the time now it's a bit of a sweeping statement, but a lot of the time it'll be four or five days at least before it's on the shelf.
A lot of the time, unless it's organic. Uh, it also will have, for me, I can get a a a, I distinctly get the flavor of residue of chemicals, uh, in some things. So. I mean, [00:34:00] why the heck would you want to eat that? I mean, kids, uh, you know, are very kids. I'm convinced that kids' taste buds are actually more. Um, sensitive, or that's the wrong word.
Um, I, I could, I dunno about the science of that, but I'm, I, my, from my observation, that would seem to be the thing. Uh, but basically I, I fully understand. Then people say, eat more greens, eat more plants. Well, yes, but they have to taste delicious. Yeah. And tasting delicious the flavor of something means very often flavor and.
Nutritional value are connected. So nature's way of tempting us to eat things is to make things delicious, but the longer we keep them and store them and, uh, transport them halfway across the world or halfway across the country, the less flavor they have. And back to your vitamins, the less vitamins and minerals they, uh, and so on.
So. This is yet another, I mean, how fortunate are we to live in a place where we can have a garden and so on, but I'm, you know, even to get [00:35:00] started with something on wind. But the other thing, Tammy, do you have the homesteading movement in Canada? Is that something in Canada? Yeah. Since COVID. This is amazing.
Yeah. Yeah. We have in, in, in America too. Uh, I mean, my latest project, as you know, I, as you may or may not, I started the Banu Cooking School in 1983, uh, quite a long time ago. It's nearly what's said 40 years ago or something. So something years gonna do the math. Uh, but then. The word retirement was mentioned, if you don't mind, A couple of years ago.
Yeah. Uh, and so, uh, that was not the, the word in my Lexi, but anyway, um, the, I was encouraged, you know, to, because we've got a great team here and everything. We have one teacher with every six students, so it's a, uh, it's a great team. But anyway. And then I, so I thought, well, if I'm going to draw back a bit from the day-to-day running of the cooking school, then I need another project.
So, um, I thought this is the perfect opportunity now to pass on the skills from the farm and gardens and the greenhouses, [00:36:00] uh, and all of that to the, the students because I'd noticed they were becoming more and more interested. Over the last couple of decades and how the things were grown and produced and everything.
So anyway, I started the Bali Maloo Organic Farm School over two years ago. Amazing. And it's a, it's smaller of course than, uh, and intentionally, uh, smaller than the, we take about 20 people at a time. Uh, and, uh, so I started this in September 19. Uh. So September 19th, 2020 23. 2023. And so it's over two years now and I'd hope that it would be a success, you know, but my God, I had no concept of the overwhelming response we get to it.
Yeah, absolutely. Everything is oversubscribed. People are flying from Canada, America, the us, uh, from. Australia, et cetera, et cetera. Took courses for even a week, or we do five week, which days to half days. But anyway, but back to the homesteading. So this is really, [00:37:00] um, it has just connected in to the deep craving that people have.
To reconnect, take back a little bit of control over their lives, uh, to grow something, keep a few hands, so safe seats, et cetera, et cetera. And it turns out that there are very, very few places that you can learn these skills. Oh yeah. Actually on a farm, you know that, I mean, there are people who stand up or you can have books or plant up and tell you how to do it, et cetera, et cetera.
But to actually be able to come onto a farm and do it very, very few places. Uh, so anyway, we've been inundated. Uh, with students, everything is oversubscribed pretty too much. And, uh, but I don't want to get bigger. I just want to keep it at this size. And, uh, it's been such a joy. We just finished a six week sustainable, uh, food program and we've.
Do, do weeks. The time at farm school came over for, from California for a week and days and all sorts of things. And now I'm gonna start a whole series. You'll be abusing this. Uh, I have already started actually a whole series of forgotten [00:38:00] skills courses as well. Uh, amazing. So, and that could be anything from half days to days to whatever.
So anyway, and we did, last year, we did two for two homestead courses as well as all the other courses. Uh, you know, I mean, yesterday, for example, it was how to rear beef cattle. Um, organically the farm is organic and you know, what we do is organic. Yeah. And, uh, to also sell directly from, you know, sell your meat directly from the farm.
But last this year we did five. Uh, we have another one coming up in two weeks, I think. Homesteading courses, uh, week long courses, packed with everything and, uh, it's completely, you know, next year I think we might do eight or something, you know, but, uh, it's, this is, so, this cheers me up so much. 'cause I mean, you probably know.
This home selling movement is quite the phenomenon and it's a worldwide thing, by the way. Uh, so, and, and people leaving the cities in their hundreds of thousands. Okay. Now that's not a mistake. I'm saying hundreds of thousands. Mm-hmm. In New York, you know, some of your, [00:39:00] even I'm sure in, in, in your Canadian cities to this is happening that are people, and it's all, and I say to people, why, you know, often it's people in tech or finance or whatever, making a ton of money.
A, a crazy busy life, almost not enough time to spend it. And I say, well, how did you decide to come, you know, over for, uh, uh, or decide to go home setting? Or, why are you thinking about it? And it goes, the story goes something like this. Well, I was sitting in the car one day and yet in another traffic jam, and it was mm-hmm.
Raining or not. It already, it might be ready. And, uh. And I, I was in, you know, desperate on, I was really pre, um, anxious because I was an very late for work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, something or other. And they're in a great state of anxiety and they suddenly say, suddenly have this moment and they see their whole life stretching out ahead of them.
They think, oh my God, is this my whole life? There has to be another way. And often, you know, one or both partners can, uh, cook at least, can, uh, uh, grow at least, uh, [00:40:00] can work a bit from home. Mm-hmm. And so, but then they really want to take back a bit of control. A lot of the time, even in their early years, they're already beginning to have health problems because they don't have, you know, can't having good time, uh, to either cook or to indeed, for that matter, source real food.
So they realize that they're, this is affecting their health and they just think that's it. I want to take back control of it. And so, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think we've been sold a lie. I think. I think we've been told Oh, oh, have we walked, go, go, go to school, go, go, go be, be a good employee. Yeah. Go work in a city.
Yeah. And, uh, and then you'll be happy. You'll have lots of money. You'll be happy. The government will take care of your roads and things. And people that live like I, I live, I live in Vancouver and yeah, our city is. I've s I've lived here my whole life. Yeah. And I have seen the change. And the downtown cores are, they're just rotting.
And, and I think people saw that during COVID, um, there could be another life. Yeah. Well, I think they [00:41:00] also saw I two things. I, I think they saw that the shelves are not gonna be full. Yeah. Uh, especially, and I think they also saw that people make bad choices when they're scared. Yeah. Here, everyone bought toilet paper and meat.
And I just, it shook my head of like, why, why is this like, you're afraid of this pandemic and you're buying toilet paper? Yeah. Um, but that the government's not gonna always be there to take care of them. And Yeah. And there was a bit of a breakdown there where they feel like. I need to learn how to do these things myself.
Yeah, yeah. And so the cities are no longer a haven for them, so they, they leave, they move. And there's, there's also not a lot of access for people to learn these things. Like, like you said, there's Yeah, like a school like yours is, is a very hard to find. People have gone through like, you wanna learn about farming for the past, I, I didn't realize that it was kind of, no.
I mean, people kind of use, I doubt, I doubt if it's absolutely true, but people are now using the word unique. I say, why don't you come to Ireland to, you know, halfway across the [00:42:00] world? I mean, that's the irony of that. Climate change times isn't lost on me. But anyway, uh, but you know, to come and learn these skills, well that's okay.
That's a trade off. And, uh, so basically. They say, uh, because, you know, they're, because they can't find it somewhere else. And I said, oh my God. Goodness. Yeah. Anyway, there we are. Well, farmers, I think farmers have learned, uh, over the past, gosh, a hundred years now, you farm a certain way, and it's like you said, it's for, it's for yield.
It's subsidized by the government. They're not learning a whole, there's not a lot of these farms, these 40 to a hundred acre farms where you're, yeah. Chickens and, and cattle and pigs and, yeah. And not only are you raising these animals, not so many mixed farms. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They're, but I'll tell you what, um, the, I feel so sorry for farmers.
I don't, I'm a bit familiar with the American farming thing. I'm very familiar with England in Ireland, but farmers in general are in a. Dreadful state. Mm-hmm. And I feel so sorry for them. These are the big intensive farmers particularly, [00:43:00] uh, they have done exactly what they were told to do. Yeah. By the, uh, agriculture advisory services in all of our countries.
You know, buy lash on the chemicals, do this, get bigger or get out and all the rest of it. Mm-hmm. And they suddenly find they're making no money, they're like slaves. And the supermarkets then are the other bit of the picture where they're forcing down the prices and people are not being paid. Anything resembling a fair price or even even a break, even price to produce the food here in Ireland.
We have very, you know, we had, oh, I know, five or 600, uh, commercial vegetable growers a couple of years ago. I think it's down to something like 60 or something now. I mean, absolutely ludicrous and so much of the produce. In a country with where we have the most incredible fertile soil, you know? Mm-hmm. A lot of our vegetables are being imported, so we're in a fine mess.
We really are. And then the other thing that's really exercising me and keeping me awake at night at the moment is, uh, the, the whole ultra processed food crisis. [00:44:00] Now, um, it's probably the same in Canada, but recently the eu before Christmas, I think they did a survey in all of the European EU countries and they found that Ireland, uh, was 45.9% of our weekly spend on food goes at al processed food.
Now they actually, the UK spend more, uh, but they're not any younger in Europe and, uh, the, the, um, US is way up there. Yeah. Uh, but anyway. So now that's on average. So I heard yesterday actually that a lot of the younger people, they reckon 60 plus percent of their food in this is in Ireland. It's actually spent on osteoporosis food.
And so we, nobody can say, we don't know the damage. This is due to our health. Our government has gotta wake up. And see what's happening in front of their eyes. 'cause they're simply, none of our governments are going to be able to fund the health service, uh, in, within a very short time. And all those foods are very carefully made to, uh, [00:45:00] so they're addictive.
Also, the food that's, they're cheaper, the food that's less good for you is cheaper. Oh my God, are we sleepwalk into a crisis of mon monumental proportions? Uh, so this really worries me. Yeah, yeah. And the grocery stores love it because they don't go bad. So there's, there's no, there's no, I find that the area in that center section of the grocery store where all the processed foods are just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
It's hard. Yes. I find it. It's worse in the states. Uh, but when I travel down to the states, I find it's hard to find food that's not processed food. It's hard, it's hard to find food. Yeah. I mean that's, yeah. Actual food, not food. Yeah. Uh, it's actually called food, but there are sort of, as Michael, what's his poer says, edible food, like substances, you know?
Yeah, exactly. And, uh, exactly. Great name. Uh, but, but it's, oh my God, I'm terrified for the next generation. The, and I, I dunno what I think quite thi I spent my life, you know? Teaching people how to cook. Nothing. I [00:46:00] think what a failure am I, I really think if they would have me back on television in my mid, late to late seventies, I've got to say to people, for God's sake, wake up.
You know, uh, that this is, uh, we're, we're on a rollercoaster to a total disaster. Yeah. All over the world. All over the world. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. With people complain about the price of food and during, I, I mean, again, during COVID, people complained about food access and the price of food. And the price of food going up.
Yeah. I have found, personally, I, I don't, I don't find it as much, I don't wanna be insensitive to people that have a lack of choice in certain areas and things like that. But if you are, I mean, obviously growing your own food. Reduces the cost. Yeah. It's just time you're putting in. But I, I find for me it's time.
I, I can, as long as you don't price your own time is cheaper. Well, yeah, but, but when am I doing but have joy. Yeah. Yeah. What am I doing with my time? I could sit in front of the tv, I could, you know, it's Watch your [00:47:00] cooking program. Yeah, exactly. People watch it exactly. More time than to get money anyway.
It's, it's time outside. It's exercise. I'm doing something healthy. Yeah. Um, but making those connections with local foragers farmers. Ranchers. Yeah. Getting your food, buying, yeah. Buying larger quantities and knowing how to break it down. Yeah. Like making, making the priority, learning how to cook real food.
Yeah. Um, and learning how to process. Obviously buying strawberries in January from, yeah. I don't know where your strawberries come from, but ours are like, oh no. Chili in Argentina. I mean, you get strawberries from January to December here at the supermarkets, but they're just in season for about two and a half or three months, uh, uh, in the summer, uh, and so on, but.
You know, there's something that just discourage me. I keep forgetting. I keep thinking and then thinking, I, I then interrupted myself and not saying it, but there's something very different and satisfying about doing something with your hands. Mm-hmm. I, uh, you know, so many people have. Really good [00:48:00] jobs and are making a ton of money and they're in front of computer screens all day.
And obviously that's their choice and on, and that is the sort of work that's very well paid nowadays. Much more so than manual work to a great extent. But I've seen CEOs of top companies, uh, here come to school that might come for a week or something or or two a half take or something they. We teach 'em how to make a loaf of bread and various other things as well.
And my God, the expression. On their face when they take Oh yeah. This love for bread outta the oven. Yeah. That they made with their own hands. And it's like they get more satisfaction from it than if they've pulled off the biggest deal. Oh, I bet. 'cause they've done something with their own hands. And it's the same with sowing a seeding.
Growing something. Basically you grew it, of course you can buy it, you have the money to buy it, but you don't get the same satisfaction. And when you eat it, then you want everybody to know you enjoy every morsel. You don't want to [00:49:00] waste a scrap. You want everybody to know you grew it and it's a whole different, and then people say to me, how come I never realized that there was, it was so wonderful to do things yourself with your own hands.
Yeah. And you know, I've, I mean, it's really moving. For me to see this wake up moment so often with people and, uh, who suddenly have this experience for the first time and it changes their lives. Oh, yeah. Because it, I think it, I think it really does. And it's, it's funny, my, my husband's friends with someone who wrote a book on that, that subject that you were just talking about, about how we have built a generation of people that.
Uh, have tech jobs that can't Yeah. Do anything with, with their heads. They could make toast. Toast. No, but they have no, no skill whatsoever. Practical skills and that we're, we're reaching a precipice where we're gonna find that in, in his opinion, we're gonna find that plumbers are gonna make more money than lawyers because Oh, yeah.
A AI is [00:50:00] gonna alter what, what value is in, in a lot of these jobs. Yes, exactly. Well, they'll never be short of a job if you're an electrician or, or a plumber, I can tell you Yeah, there's months waiting lists on them. Even over here. Yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. It's, it's the same thing here, but yeah. That, that, that putting value in things, yes, we can buy something off Amazon and it can come, you know, I can.
Comes in the packet, packet, shelf, and so on. Yeah. Yeah. And it comes from China. Whatever, it costs me a couple bucks or I can go build it myself. Yeah. We need to start looking at the value in having that skill and looking on your wall and seeing I made that right. Yeah. I, I, and, and again, with, with our kids, my husband's done that a few times with them.
He's built, um. Uh, he built a bed with my daughter. They went through together and they built a bed, and she knows, so she looks at that. She built that with her father, with their hand. The satisfaction. It's a totally different thing. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody should have the, the joy of feeding that. Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent.
Well, [00:51:00] that's why we're still back to front of our education. You see? It's all Yeah. The academic skills rather than the valuing. Anyway, there we are. We can't start. Yeah. We can only make a little difference in our own, uh, in our own area. But you, yeah. I think, uh, you are very fortunate to have the experiences you've had, which you can share with your listeners and so on.
Well, I and give them an appetite for it. Yeah. Well that's, I mean, I, I feel like I, I wanna continue what you, you instilled in me. Like I really, truly wanna thank you for that. Um, you, what you do is, is amazing and what you continue to do there, and I, I really do need to get over to, meant to go check it out.
Right. Come and visit us and we can, yeah. Uh, we can cook and, and garden together and you can walk around the farm and all the rest of it. Yeah. Good. That, that would be amazing. That would be amazing. Well, uh, was there anything else you wanted to cover? Now, let me think. Well, I just, we just, I just rambled off there.
So is there [00:52:00] anything else you want? Oh, yeah, I, I'll tell you. So, um, yeah, the, the, the Bali Mao Cookery School, uh, is in the middle, right in the middle of, of a a hundred acre farm. So, uh, literally you can go, the students can go down with the gardeners and bring in the produce in the morning or learn how to milk the cows, or we also have a fermentation shed and a bread shed.
So there's all kinds of different things, but, uh, basically. If you're in Ireland, you're talking about coming to Ireland. Uh, anybody who's on holidays over here the afternoon could be demonstrations, are open to the public every day. So, you know, you can come in for a half day or a day or, I mean, their log course weeks, um, you know, three month courses where people want to get the skills, like it's guest, like gastro bootcamp.
Uh, you know, they. Uh, very intense, full on, uh, for people who want to get the skills to earn the living from their cooking. And, uh, oh, that's, oh, I can tell you we're better than Tinder any day as well. That's great. Great thing for a man. I mean, the way everybody's heart is through their tummy. So anyways, that's, uh, so there we are.
So if anybody's in the area, they can [00:53:00] just, uh, uh, telephone and, and, you know, come in for the afternoon and that's quite fun. Yeah. Get taste of perfect. What we're doing there. Yeah. Well. We have a little farm shop on the farm too. Yeah. Amazing. And yeah, uh, I'll put, so I'll put links, um, when I post the podcast, I'll put links to this book, which I think every single person needs to have.
Oh, that's really nice. And, uh, hopefully they will get it as dogeared, as, as mine is. But, um, I just wanna say thank you very much. I really appreciate you. Uh. Talk you day. And also you can, if you'd like, you can put a, a link to the farm school. Yes. Uh, Bao Organic Farm School and to the Bao, I will do that school.
And we're just, we're down on the south coast of Ireland, very close to the sea east of Cork. Um, and Cork City's about, about, uh, 35, uh, miles. It's about a bit, uh, nearly an hour from here. And, but there's an airport in Cork as well, so you can fly straight into, uh, uh, cork Airport. Perfect. Well, I'll put [00:54:00] those links and uh, see how many people we can get dropping in on your, uh, on your school coming to say hello from Canada.
Well, that's lovely. We're already very multi-ethnic. I mean, they're always small of the lovely. Uh, I think on this 12 week course, there are 11 nationalities. On the last one there were 16. It's fantastic. Wow. So when the students come, they have, uh, friends in four, you know, 14, 16 new countries, which is lovely.
Yeah. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed talking with you. Oh, it was lovely to chat to you, Tiffany. I'm so honored to be the first person on your, uh, great new adventure. Uh, how fortunate people are to have you, uh, there at the click of a switch. Well, you made my day when I got that email back with you saying yes.
So well, thank you. It's been lovely chatting to you. Thank you. Bye.
[00:55:00] Hey, I am Tiffany Bader. I'm launching a new podcast called The Wild Kitchen. I'm a professional chef by trade. Growing up as a kid, I spent my summers in Nova Scotia at my grandparents' farm. As a Gen Xer, looking back, we joke about drinking water outta hoses, and this was like, like Uber. Uber, gen X growing up, you know, catching brook trout on the stream behind the house, crawling around on my hands and knees, picking wild strawberries all day, catching frogs and salamanders and ditches.
It was. It was safe and it was free, and it was completely connected with the land and the people around me. And when we weren't running around getting dirty and, you know, crashing ATVs and ditches, we were sitting around the kitchen table sharing stories. Now, food's always been a massive part of my life and those, those incredibly enjoyable days in in Nova Scotia to when I got older and started working as a [00:56:00] chef.
I knew food was gonna always be part of it, but over time I realized that something was missing in those fast-paced professional kitchens. And I've been on a search to get a little bit closer to, to what really fuels me and makes my life enjoyable, and that is getting my hands dirty, getting out there and really being connected with the land during that.
That journey. I've met some pretty amazing people that have taught me a lot, and in this podcast, you're gonna hear some conversations. I've circled back and I've been able to get people that were incredibly influential in my own journey. And I'm gonna sit down and we're gonna have some great conversations.
We're gonna learn some cool stuff. Now, selfishly, these podcast recordings have been a way for me to meet and talk to people that I deeply respect and admire. They've also been a way for me to learn more about. Food and hunting and foraging and fermenting and all the things that fuel and drive me [00:57:00] today.
And I hope that these things excite you too. That you get motivated and hopefully feel a better connection to, to the world around you. Feel more empowered and inspired to be more self-sufficient, have greater control over the food that you eat, and feel like you're sitting down at the table with me and my guest.
And if you enjoy these conversations, I invite you to subscribe, follow along, and invite others to listen as well. I hope you enjoy the wild kitchen as much as I've enjoyed recording it.