Avoiding the Pitfalls of Teamwork w/ Project Sisterhood

Great vision can still fail with bad teamwork.

This crossover conversation is about building healthy teams: clarity, curiosity, conflict, expectations, communication, and culture. If you lead at work, serve on a team at church, or you’re trying to build something meaningful—these pitfalls will hit you eventually. The goal is to spot them early and lead like a grown man.

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Question: What’s the hardest part of teamwork for you—communication, conflict, or unclear expectations?

Men of Faith is the podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Caleb Cole

Caleb, a Sacramento native, grew up in a pastor’s home and is a third generation minister. At the age of 12, after one of his grandfather’s sermons, he felt a call from God to be a pastor. He consistently pursued that call throughout high school and college. Caleb attended Central Bible College in Springfield, MO where he earned a B.A. in Biblical Studies and went on to the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary where he earned an M.A. in Theological Studies.

What is Men of Faith?

Men of Faith is a Christian podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out.

Hosted by Caleb Cole, each episode equips men to follow Jesus with conviction, character, and consistency—at home, at work, and in every season of life. Through honest conversations and practical biblical wisdom, Men of Faith tackles real issues like leadership, fatherhood, identity, marriage, discipline, spiritual growth, and navigating culture without compromise. This is a podcast for men who want more than inspiration—they want transformation.

00;00;00;05 - 00;00;13;12
Speaker 1
You sweep it under the carpet. I still didn't nail it, but it was close because we actually sweep it under the rug because carpet is attached to the floor, so you can't sweep anything under it but a rug.

00;00;13;12 - 00;00;13;19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;00;13;25 - 00;00;16;00
Speaker 1
Okay. You sweep under the rug.

00;00;16;01 - 00;00;25;07
Speaker 2
Okay. I just like to blame. I like I like to blame people. Okay. And this is also a pitfall in teamwork, blaming other people. But let me just do it for a second.

00;00;25;10 - 00;00;45;06
Speaker 1
You're listening to man of Faith, the podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out. Join me as we live a life dedicated to our God.

00;00;45;08 - 00;01;10;22
Speaker 2
This is a Project sisterhood podcast for all things women with a useful purpose for ministry, motherhood, or the marketplace. We have crucial and genuine conversations that transcend your season, yet impact your true identity as a woman. From light hearted and laughable to honest, deep matters of the heart, your soul will be encouraged. We hope you and all women of every age and every stage buy life and freedom in Jesus.

00;01;10;24 - 00;01;22;29
Speaker 1
Welcome back. We have another crossover episode, men of Faith sisterhood podcast going down. Let's link up word one where one team.

00;01;23;01 - 00;01;33;03
Speaker 2
One team. Because team is our strength. Yes! Wow, what a great intro. Yes. Men have faith and project sisterhood crossover episode. Pastor Caleb.

00;01;33;04 - 00;01;55;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, and we actually want to talk about teamwork. So today is going to be an episode about teamwork, how we operate as a team. And this is going to hit in all areas of life. And so we want to help you be better team players at your jobs. We want you to be team players in your church. You know, wherever you serve or the community you're a part of.

00;01;55;03 - 00;02;08;16
Speaker 1
But also, we want you to be team players in your marriage. And so Chrissy and I have a lot of experience in that, actually almost 18 years of experience in teamwork and marriage. And we've got this thing figured out, don't we, Chrissy?

00;02;08;17 - 00;02;26;09
Speaker 2
Oh, I'm almost so close now. I do think I feel like we have to let the people know that there it is a different situation with us. Not all married couples work as closely as we work. It's like being married to,

00;02;26;11 - 00;02;26;25
Speaker 1
A business.

00;02;26;25 - 00;02;27;22
Speaker 2
Partner. Yeah.

00;02;27;26 - 00;02;33;26
Speaker 1
So, yeah, because we have to operate in team in all areas of our life and including work, work.

00;02;33;29 - 00;02;47;18
Speaker 2
Personal marriage, parenting. Everything. So it is a unique situation. And I hope not. All you have to be called to it. I really think though. Otherwise it could be really destructive.

00;02;47;20 - 00;03;05;25
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I do think there are some pitfalls that come with like a couple like us who have to be in team in all areas, including our jobs, and we have a few friends who work together as well, and they can relate to the pain and the the tension that comes with working together.

00;03;05;28 - 00;03;09;04
Speaker 2
I would say tension. Tension is a better word than the pain.

00;03;09;04 - 00;03;11;13
Speaker 1
I mean, it is painful at times. We got to be real, right?

00;03;11;13 - 00;03;12;14
Speaker 2
Like you're right, you're right.

00;03;12;15 - 00;03;32;29
Speaker 1
Like it's hard because it's stretching. It's tension. Tension is painful, right? Because it's stretching. But I think we all ultimately want to be better team players in all areas of our lives. And so that's what we want to talk to you about today is some of the pitfalls that come, when we are operating in teams and some of the things that we can become dangerous.

00;03;32;29 - 00;04;03;10
Speaker 1
And so when you think about pitfalls in team work, first of all, I always come to like a lack of clear vision and mission. Right. So yeah, if the vision isn't clear, we know what the Bible says. Without vision, the people will perish. And so when it comes to marriage, when it comes to jobs, working as teams, when it comes to church and working in teams and community, if we don't have a clear vision, we're always going to suffer.

00;04;03;10 - 00;04;21;09
Speaker 1
And so I did want to say, like, maybe we start with marriage and how we have identified or how we have clarified the vision for our marriage. How do you think we've done that, like. Well, in just saying, man, we're following through on the vision of our marriage, which makes us operate as a team better.

00;04;21;11 - 00;04;44;00
Speaker 2
Well, I think the difference between being a follower of Christ and someone of this world is that we get our vision from God. For sure, our vision is cloudy if we don't have the Lord. If we're operating in our flesh, then we are going after things that we are imagining ourselves. But God gives us a vision and it was clarified through the Word of God.

00;04;44;02 - 00;05;14;22
Speaker 2
Everything that we're supposed to do, we say that the Bible is our guide. It's our roadmap. It is, the tutorial for how we do life. So I think a lot of our vision comes from the Word of God. And the way we've set up our marriage is that of in Ephesians five couple, I would say, according to the scriptures and according to even from the beginning of time, in Genesis, how we arrange ourselves, who is head over the other or how we work together, how we mutually submit.

00;05;14;29 - 00;05;27;13
Speaker 2
All of that has been determined, interpreted from the scripture. So, yeah, clarifying vision. You have to kind of decide what your theology is on roles in your marriage.

00;05;27;17 - 00;05;48;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. To me it always comes down to the why. You know, like why are we doing this. Because without a why. Like that's when personal agendas will start to slide in and we become self-serving. And, and so in our jobs for instance like we need to know the why and what a win looks like. In the church this is the why what a win looks like.

00;05;48;23 - 00;06;12;17
Speaker 1
And then in marriage, this is the why. What a win looks like. And so I know for you and I like yes, Ephesians five. But the why has always been like raising, a home that is centered on on being heaven bringers and kingdom builders. And I think because we've always prioritized, like kingdom building within our home, raising our children to be kingdom builders.

00;06;12;19 - 00;06;36;15
Speaker 1
Raising our children to prioritize, the house of God, the presence of God, and the kingdom of God bringing heaven to earth. It is always grounded us and rooted us right in when we're getting off track. Yeah, we always have to like, hey, we maybe need to circle back and change some priorities because priorities will will shift, sometimes unknowingly.

00;06;36;18 - 00;06;59;00
Speaker 1
If we're not constantly coming back to the why? Yeah. And I think you and I have done a good job of prioritizing with our children. The why? Of building the kingdom and the kingdom in them and bringing heaven to earth. And that's what our family is here for. And that is a priority. It doesn't mean they still don't play sports and have activities, and they're still learning music and piano and all these things.

00;06;59;02 - 00;07;23;08
Speaker 1
But ultimately, if any of that gets in the way of the greater why of kingdom building, then we have had to back off. And we've actually backed off of sports for our kids and seasons and times. We've backed off of extracurriculars and seasons and times for our kids, because it didn't align with the why of what we felt our family was called to do and be, and what we wanted our kids to see as a priority of our lives.

00;07;23;14 - 00;07;52;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. And so I think going back to marriage, understanding that both male and female are, leading the children, it's not one more than the other. Yeah. I do think that that's also a part of the vision that we have for our family. So and the fact that we both lead side by side, we think that kingdom Builders, has to be fully men operating fully as man and woman, operating fully as woman.

00;07;52;18 - 00;08;03;09
Speaker 2
That that's when the fullness of the kingdom will be brought out. So I think, I think even just knowing the parts we each play is super valuable.

00;08;03;15 - 00;08;24;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. And my encouragement would be to because we kind of started with relationships in couples, is that you do maintain the clarity of vision within your home. And so if you don't have a vision for your family, in your home, in your marriage, I think right now this is something that you probably need to get with your spouse and say, like, what are we going after?

00;08;24;27 - 00;08;51;01
Speaker 1
What is our why? What is a win look like? And what is the vision of where we're going as a family? Because how can you prioritize properly if you don't actually know what you're aiming for? Right. We don't know what the target is. We don't know what the vision is for our home, in our family. You're you're going to fall into prioritizing the wrong things and so for the couples out there, you know, I think right now, I think many of them probably need to say, hey, what's what's the vision?

00;08;51;01 - 00;09;04;17
Speaker 1
We need a circle. We need to sit down. We need to have a meet up. And this is husband and wife and align our vision. And then we need to share that with our children. And our kids know that. Like, they know that there has been seasons where we've pulled them back from all the things, and it's because of the why.

00;09;04;17 - 00;09;12;00
Speaker 1
And we we align them with the why, and this is why we're making these decisions. And so to take it to teams, go ahead.

00;09;12;07 - 00;09;37;26
Speaker 2
Well, I was going to say we're talking about the vision and some of the pitfalls of, of teamwork is when there is no vision, then the people perish. Well, when the vision isn't communicated, yes. Then the, the teamwork is falling apart. So I think healthy communication is another, I mean, it seems so simple, but very profound, actually.

00;09;37;26 - 00;10;14;18
Speaker 2
But communication, because you were saying, you know, hey, clarify the vision. Well, even, clarifying your communication is kindness and relationship. I was just listening to another pastor talking about the difference between being nice and being kind. And sometimes nice is kind is sweeping things under the cover or under the carpet and just projecting, niceness and, and it's a surface level kind of, relationship building and a way of communicating niceties is just really surface.

00;10;14;18 - 00;10;40;08
Speaker 2
But kindness is clarity. It's confronting. It's honest, it's transparent, it's vulnerable. So good communication in a relationship does really have to be kind. Yeah. But so anyways, I always think about Brené Brown. Always. I know that, some people are on the fence about her, but I'm, I'm a fan of statements like, clear this kind. Yeah. Clear communication is kind.

00;10;40;11 - 00;10;59;25
Speaker 1
It's funny, I think, man, you read my mind because I had the notes here. And the second pitfall was poor communication. And you went there. Yeah. So you're. I mean, first of all, we're just aligned in vision, you know, like, you even know where my brain is going. But I do want to just I do want to just bring, attention to communication.

00;10;59;28 - 00;11;20;06
Speaker 1
Because one thing I love about my wife is her idioms, because she is the queen and she just almost did it again. She said we sweep it under the covers, when you're not bringing it out to, into the public square, you sweep it under the covers. And then she was like, no, no, you sweep it under the carpet.

00;11;20;08 - 00;11;31;21
Speaker 1
Still didn't nail it, but it was close because we actually sweep it under the rug because carpet is attached to the floor, so you can't sweep anything under it but a rug.

00;11;31;22 - 00;11;32;17
Speaker 2
Yeah. Okay.

00;11;32;18 - 00;11;34;18
Speaker 1
You sweep under the rug, okay.

00;11;34;18 - 00;11;53;11
Speaker 2
Hold on. I just like to blame. I like I like to blame people, okay? And this is also a pitfall in teamwork, blaming other people. But let me just do it for a second. My parents asked the blame. My parents are Filipino. They're very, eastern in their thinking, and it's a very circular. And so some of those idioms just never landed growing up.

00;11;53;11 - 00;11;59;29
Speaker 2
So they're fuzzy in my brain. And the way I processed things are very circular. So it takes me a while before I get there.

00;12;00;02 - 00;12;04;02
Speaker 1
Sweeping under the covers.

00;12;04;04 - 00;12;29;02
Speaker 1
I love it, but but I do think that's, on the topic of communication. I think that poor communication is a huge issue and pitfall in teamwork. And ultimately we assume a lot, right? My wife gets so mad at me when I assume, and I do assume I'll admit it. I make a lot of assumptions about people, about thought processes, about, actions.

00;12;29;05 - 00;12;39;19
Speaker 1
And, and we have to do better at not allowing assumptions to lead us, but rather clarifying questions and conversations to lead us.

00;12;39;21 - 00;13;15;04
Speaker 2
Curiosity is the best form of communication, I think. Yes opens up portals to honest conversation. It invites vulnerability and the truth of the matter. The root of an issue comes out when you investigate. So curiosity and communication is so important. I think people value, really flashy communication and one liners and nuggets of wisdom, and you lose all wisdom when you are just making statements and you're making assumptions.

00;13;15;06 - 00;13;18;11
Speaker 2
Curiosity, kills the cat.

00;13;18;13 - 00;13;19;07
Speaker 1
So you got that one.

00;13;19;07 - 00;13;21;24
Speaker 2
Just kidding. I that has nothing to do with it. I'm saying I just want.

00;13;21;24 - 00;13;22;24
Speaker 1
To know that an email.

00;13;22;24 - 00;13;38;17
Speaker 2
An idiom. But curiosity I think is an undervalued, form of communication or undervalued. That's not what I'm looking for them now I'm lost my words. But, Yeah, I think we need to value curiosity more.

00;13;38;19 - 00;14;04;01
Speaker 1
Well, misalignment will always create conflict, right? When we're not aligned with one another. And misalignment typically comes from poor communication. Like we're not on the same page, we're not on the same page. We're misaligned because there was not clarity. There wasn't clarity of of directive. There wasn't clarity of of vision. There wasn't clarity of of responsibility or roles.

00;14;04;04 - 00;14;27;07
Speaker 1
Expectations. And so communication is everything, right? Like if we we obviously have that division in the why. But then like if I haven't communicated clearly my expectations, what what I expect your role to be if I'm a leader, or even asking clarifying questions if I've been given something. But I don't know what exactly you're wanting me to do or be in the role I'm meant to take on.

00;14;27;09 - 00;14;33;14
Speaker 1
If I don't ask the right questions, I could start acting and moving and going in a direction my leader doesn't want me to go.

00;14;33;20 - 00;15;00;28
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's good. That's very good with organization. But I think relationally, yeah, this happens. This just happened to us this past weekend, because, I had certain expectations for how our Friday goes, how it typically, typically goes. We take Fridays off, it's our Sabbath, and we are very intentional about connecting. And so I had a lot of expectations and probably a lot of other emotions and things that I wanted to process that I never communicated with Caleb.

00;15;01;05 - 00;15;26;26
Speaker 2
And I know that the goal and the vision for that day was to connect. So my way, of connecting was probably not healthy. But I, I reserved the whole day and I kept on asking, hey, what are we doing today? What are we doing today? And that was my way of connecting. And then for you, you knew that the goal and the vision was that we would,

00;15;26;29 - 00;15;41;27
Speaker 2
You know, spend time together. But you didn't know the whirlwind of emotions that I was experiencing. Yeah. So, so you went ahead and led and said, we're going to the gym. We're going, what else do we do?

00;15;41;27 - 00;15;44;12
Speaker 1
We're going to wash the cars, clean the cars.

00;15;44;15 - 00;16;06;25
Speaker 2
Yard work. He did everything that he knew. I would want to have done. And typically but I had other emotions. So we both had a vision, but it wasn't, it wasn't connecting that day because it was never clarified and because neither of us actually asked as many questions about, hey, what is our intention for the day?

00;16;06;27 - 00;16;31;00
Speaker 2
What is sometimes, the sometimes without clear communication, even though you have the same vision, you can lead down the wrong path relationally. You can, hey, I'm still doing what we want. We said that we wanted to do, but, does that make sense? I feel like that day was, really great example. I mean, I asked questions, I did say, hey, what are we doing today?

00;16;31;02 - 00;16;47;24
Speaker 2
But then and you were still doing a bunch of stuff that I would value, typically. But, if we don't ask questions or clarify our communication, then we'll just go down, like, almost like be robot robotic about our connection.

00;16;47;27 - 00;17;18;08
Speaker 1
And I think that was actually a good example of I was trying to probably, I believe in my heart, Give a love language, which was an act of service to my wife by doing these projects at home and with the cars and things that she probably typically would have, you know, I thought wanted, but in that moment wasn't actually the love language she needed.

00;17;18;10 - 00;17;41;18
Speaker 1
And I didn't ask what she needed. And I also didn't catch some hints when she was expressing what she needed. And what she really needed was like quality time and connection. But that was not what I gave her. And so it's also asking questions, but making sure you're giving the other person what they need, not just what you think they need.

00;17;41;21 - 00;17;52;26
Speaker 1
And that's where the assumption comes in. Because I, I'm in the summer and I'm like, well, if I do all these things, she'll feel love because that's like it's acts of service around the house. But that's not what she needed in that moment.

00;17;53;01 - 00;18;16;18
Speaker 2
And that happens so often on teams. And again, it's just I have to create a greater conflict then it is it is a conflict. But where when it gets to be, a conflict that will be harder to solve is when we attach, character assassination and, like, you don't care for me or make these, you know, big statements and judgments.

00;18;16;18 - 00;18;33;22
Speaker 2
And I know that you care for me. I know you are doing the best that you could. But if I was never honest with how I felt, we would never have that day would never have ended well. And yeah, we wouldn't have been able to recover. And we did recover. We did. Yeah. That day. So I think that happens in organizations too.

00;18;33;24 - 00;18;52;15
Speaker 2
We say I did what my boss wanted and then your pride puffs you up. Pride is always a pitfall in teamwork. And you might be saying, hey, I did what I was supposed to do, and, they shouldn't be upset about anything, but we can't fall into the trap of being. We're not robots. We're not, We're not machines.

00;18;52;17 - 00;19;11;08
Speaker 2
Things work well when nuts and bolts are working in, machine and mechanics. But we're human beings, and feelings complicate things. Assumptions, hopes, dreams, you know, disappointments, all those kinds of things play into the relationship. So it it's not going to be a formula when it comes to teamwork.

00;19;11;12 - 00;19;27;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. And that really leads me to the next pitfall which is conflict avoidance. And I think what you always do a good job of Chrissy, which is Chrissy's never seen a conflict she didn't like. You know what I mean?

00;19;27;24 - 00;19;29;20
Speaker 2
Gosh, I am not what she's like.

00;19;29;20 - 00;19;36;29
Speaker 1
Conflict. Let me roll up my sleeves. Whew. Let's dive in to the deep end. Right. Like, I don't.

00;19;36;29 - 00;19;38;13
Speaker 2
Know about everybody who knows me.

00;19;38;13 - 00;19;40;04
Speaker 1
Right? I appreciate that about you.

00;19;40;04 - 00;19;45;25
Speaker 2
I think maybe when it comes to you and. And our marriage. Absolutely. Give me a conflict. Resolve it.

00;19;45;25 - 00;20;05;13
Speaker 1
Well, and I'm probably a little more conflict avoidant, to be honest. Like, I like to keep the peace, which is not what we're called to be. We're called to be peacemakers, right? Or we don't sweep it under the rug. We talk about it. I like when, like, everything's placid and calm. And so, you know, I I'll let that go or we don't really need to talk about it.

00;20;05;13 - 00;20;25;14
Speaker 1
I have a propensity or tendency towards that. And that has played out in our teams at church, at work teams I've been on in the past, and it's played out in our marriage at times. But I think that conflict avoidance, we know is a pitfall. We can't brush issues aside. Because what happens is it leads to hidden bitterness.

00;20;25;16 - 00;20;40;26
Speaker 1
It leads to resentment because these things are building up rather than what Matthew 18 tells us is like, if you have an issue, if your brother has sinned against you, you need to go to him and you need to talk to him about it. So why do you think you're so good at it?

00;20;40;29 - 00;20;42;05
Speaker 2
I don't think that.

00;20;42;11 - 00;20;47;06
Speaker 1
I mean, I'm not saying you always go out of the healthiest of ways, especially with me, but. Wow. But I'm saying that.

00;20;47;07 - 00;20;48;06
Speaker 2
Killing it today.

00;20;48;06 - 00;20;50;23
Speaker 1
I am saying you're not going to run from it. You know what I mean?

00;20;50;23 - 00;21;12;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. I just don't, like, confront it. I mean, you you just cause undue weight and discomfort in your own internal world and. Yeah, as somebody who maybe is some all of my assistants have qualified me as a person who has A.D.D. or, and I just, I honestly just think that people in this world are very distracted.

00;21;12;25 - 00;21;41;21
Speaker 2
And so, I feel like our culture doesn't give us a lot of, internal peace. And so I think I'm always fighting for my internal world, my private world to be in order. So maybe it's a different kind of control, but I think that is how the how God wants us to approach our lives. But if I know something is this conflict or this, division is is weighing on my mind, I need some reprieve.

00;21;41;21 - 00;21;47;26
Speaker 2
Internally, I cannot function. Really? So I don't know if that's a personal thing.

00;21;47;28 - 00;22;10;03
Speaker 1
No. I mean, I think that it gives me insight into, like, your inner world, which is, hey, I will get, my mind's going 100 different places, and I'm already thinking about the next thing. But if this isn't dealt with, how could I move on to the next thing? And you know that even for you, like, that thing will turn into something bigger and you don't want it to.

00;22;10;03 - 00;22;30;22
Speaker 1
And I think that's a healthy way of processing, you know, that we're not conflict avoidant, that we deal with the issue or challenge at hand, that the hard part about that is not everyone will meet us there. And I know that I don't want to meet you there a lot of the time. Yeah. You're like, we got to talk about this in like, here's my issue.

00;22;30;22 - 00;22;35;21
Speaker 1
And I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, I don't want to meet you here right now because it's uncomfortable.

00;22;35;23 - 00;23;00;15
Speaker 2
Well, and hopefully I don't think I'm always approaching you with conflict that way. Here's what I got. Do I mean, I think that you also learn to, come to somebody again with curiosity, like, this is how I'm feeling. How are you feeling? How are you reading me? How are you experiencing me? Like, that's a great question to ask, because right now my internal world is feeling this way.

00;23;00;17 - 00;23;22;05
Speaker 2
Am I can you sense this? I just think that there's, I don't think, first of all, I don't think I always come to you that way. But I also think our upbringing has contributed to the way that we deal with conflict. I mean, I do think that some conflict in my family was explosive and anger filled.

00;23;22;07 - 00;23;59;04
Speaker 2
So I have had to learn to, again, come to you with curiosity and come to you with my feelings, not blaming you for anything, but first acknowledging this is how I am feeling. Yeah. Can we talk about it? This or that? And I think someone like you, who? Your family did not operate that way. When I come to you as a question, I think typically passive or of, conflict avoidant people come a little bit more defensive, so they feel like a question is an attack, but it's actually just curiosity and wanting to learn, understand and connect.

00;23;59;07 - 00;24;26;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. And and when we don't have the muscle of, you know, conflict being developed regularly, it's hard, right? Like I think for me, I've gotten better at it because that muscle has been stretched. It's been built. Obviously I lead with you a church and teams and staff, and so you just can't avoid the conflict. You know, you have to you have to stretch that muscle.

00;24;26;03 - 00;24;50;06
Speaker 1
And I think it's probably easier for me with, with team and people that I work alongside of than it is in marriage. I don't know why. It's just harder in marriage. Probably because that is the place where we're most vulnerable, and we feel like nobody sees us as clearly as our spouse does. And so they see the worst parts, you know, they see the weakest parts.

00;24;50;08 - 00;25;16;14
Speaker 1
And so sometimes I'm avoiding just to, out of self-preservation. Right. And I think a lot of people do that in, in marriage. They do it in ministry. They do it in teams. They do it in work. It's self-preservation to avoid conflict. It's self-preservation to not own our stuff. It's self-preservation to not also even call out what's unhealthy we see in someone else.

00;25;16;17 - 00;25;24;07
Speaker 1
Because ultimately, we want to be liked, right? We want to be accepted. And when we do speak something and say, hey, this seems wrong or unhealthy.

00;25;24;07 - 00;25;25;22
Speaker 2
Or help me understand, help.

00;25;25;23 - 00;25;26;07
Speaker 1
Me understand.

00;25;26;07 - 00;25;28;18
Speaker 2
Yeah, probably be less attacking.

00;25;28;18 - 00;25;29;04
Speaker 1
Well, for sure.

00;25;29;04 - 00;25;57;03
Speaker 2
You're right. Yeah, well, I think, also being just aware with how how you deal with conflict, this is a big thing. What do you do with conflict? Do you fight? Do you fight? Do you freeze? Do you? Fine. I do think that we have to be aware of our response, because when we are actually aware of what our response is to, conflict, we're going to start feeling it in our bodies, even in our nervous systems.

00;25;57;03 - 00;26;25;25
Speaker 2
So whether our nervous system is regulated or not, and I think the way that most people understand a regulated nervous system is if you can be emotionally regulated, when we can finally understand that, or when we realize if we're fighting, fighting, freezing or fanning, we're going to feel it in our bodies. And if we can learn to regulate our systems, our nurses systems, regulate our emotions, then we will handle conflict more healthy.

00;26;25;28 - 00;26;39;26
Speaker 2
So, I mean, that's a whole nother that could be a whole nother podcast episode talking about emotional, dysregulation and nervous system regulation. So maybe that'll be the next time we talk about on the podcast, ladies. Stay tuned.

00;26;39;28 - 00;27;04;04
Speaker 1
There you go. I like that, when it comes to pitfalls, I mean, I think clearly what we just talked about is so huge, you just can't avoid conflict. You got to address it, you got to deal with it. But ultimately what that really comes down to, and this is a huge pitfall, is vulnerability and lack of trust.

00;27;04;07 - 00;27;44;17
Speaker 1
Right. So so if there's not vulnerability from leadership there's not vulnerability in relationship. There is not vulnerability. In team then what happens is there's trust that gets lost and then collaboration becomes only surface level. Right. And and when collaboration is only surface level level, you don't get the most out of everyone. But the only way for collaboration to go deeper is for me to really know that this person or really know who these people are, and I think we lack vulnerability.

00;27;44;20 - 00;28;05;12
Speaker 1
Probably not so much in marriage, although there's maybe some of that. But I think in teams and organizations, in work, in church, there's a lack of vulnerability because we think we have to come like perfect all the time. And so talk to me about like what you've seen in terms of like where teams fall short when they aren't vulnerable.

00;28;05;12 - 00;28;11;13
Speaker 1
Like there's not an honesty like, hey, I actually am not perfect and I do fall short myself.

00;28;11;16 - 00;28;44;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, I see when there's a lack of vulnerability, and self-preservation. I feel like, and hiding any weakness or potential a failure or, shortcoming. I see people overcompensate in pride. And so when they're lacking, they become over critical. I feel like, Yeah. And I think that people are just kind of stuck, and not progressing and growing where they can be growing internally, because they're avoiding vulnerability.

00;28;44;26 - 00;29;22;25
Speaker 2
So the people around you, who you are that God put around you to help you grow when you're not vulnerable with them, then you just start your growth. And I actually think those people end up being more critical of everybody else's growth because they're not happy with where they're at personally. Yeah. So I think, I, I that's a whole I don't know if that is directly related to vulnerability, but I think, yeah, the lack of vulnerability can produce, I think, critical spirits and if critical personas and that criticism may just be pointing at them, you know, deficiency that you have in yourself that you're hiding.

00;29;22;26 - 00;29;24;08
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's all self-protection.

00;29;24;08 - 00;29;24;22
Speaker 2
For sure.

00;29;24;26 - 00;29;32;24
Speaker 1
Right? Yeah. You said we lack vulnerability because we're self protecting, which actually does lead, ironically, to judgment.

00;29;33;00 - 00;30;07;22
Speaker 2
Judgment, criticism and control. Controlling troll and like pride wants to control and pride wants to, preserve. So I think that yeah, for sure the lack of vulnerability. But you said, you know, you see this more not as much as marriage. Maybe we don't see it in our marriage. But I do think that a lot of couples that we talk about talk to, there's a lack of vulnerability, when you're defensive all the time and you can't get to the root, or the heart of an issue because you're constantly blaming others.

00;30;07;22 - 00;30;28;08
Speaker 2
You're forcing and blaming what the other person provided for you or what they didn't do for you. And you're, you know, I think we had a conversation recently, too, like the emotional situation I was dealing with on Friday when I finally said, you know what? I actually am frustrated with myself, and I think I just wanted to share that.

00;30;28;10 - 00;30;54;21
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. That, you know, we could have kept fighting. We could have made it about the fact that you did other things that I didn't want you to do or we didn't get to, you know, you weren't meeting my expectations. But when it came down to actually having a conversation, I did actually want quality time because I wanted to process some things that I was unhappy with in myself, with you, with somebody who I valued their feedback, who I valued.

00;30;54;23 - 00;31;04;05
Speaker 2
Yeah. Your input. And I wanted your affection in that time or maybe consoling or. Yeah.

00;31;04;07 - 00;31;30;27
Speaker 1
Well, I think my fear probably of vulnerability sometimes is that. And maybe this is for a lot of people, it does come down to self-protection, because I probably do struggle even at times in my own vulnerability in in marriage. I said, I don't think it plays out in our marriage that much, but it is a self-protection, because it probably comes down to like when we get real and vulnerable, there's a fear that it will be weaponized against you.

00;31;30;29 - 00;31;55;14
Speaker 1
You know what I mean? There's a fear in your job on a team that anything you say that's like, oh, this is where I was weak or fell short, that one day someone will actually use that against me to say, well, this is why you're disqualified from actually leading in that space or, or having authority on that conversation.

00;31;55;14 - 00;32;26;11
Speaker 1
Because I know back two weeks ago, you said that, you know, you struggled with lust, and now you're going to talk to, a couple about purity. Yeah. You have no authority there. But it's like, well, yeah, I can self authority. Even though I had a moment of weakness or I have a weakness there. Right. Because because me being perfect isn't the thing that qualifies me to have authority in a space or an area.

00;32;26;13 - 00;32;40;03
Speaker 1
And I think that in marriage it probably plays out more where it's like, if I express weakness, eventually she'll weaponize that against me and use that as a way to punish me for how I fell short.

00;32;40;10 - 00;33;16;04
Speaker 2
Right. I think that progression says it, that people aren't looking for a perfect leader. They're looking for a real leader. Yeah. Real. And I think, yeah, I think it's fear of weapon met weaponizing, your faults. And so more than I think, maybe even, those who are serving under a leader more than they're worried about their leader using against them, I think as leader and as the top of the organization, senior leadership, executive leadership, whatever, whatever space you're in, I think it's the fear of losing trust.

00;33;16;07 - 00;33;17;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, trust.

00;33;17;01 - 00;33;19;23
Speaker 2
Vulnerability. So,

00;33;19;25 - 00;33;20;08
Speaker 1
That's good.

00;33;20;09 - 00;33;39;15
Speaker 2
But I do think that we have to continue to fight to have vulnerability transparent. You know, environments, because that just gives way for honesty. And we're, we're not being honest with ourselves. Then we are probably just sweeping things under the rug.

00;33;39;17 - 00;34;05;29
Speaker 1
Nailed it. So, so last pitfall I want to talk to you about, when it comes to teamwork, is one that you and I have mixed feelings on. Right. But I do think it's a conversation we need to have. And this plays out in marriage. It plays out in jobs. It plays out in teams at church. And that's the pitfall of burnout and over commitment.

00;34;06;01 - 00;34;33;10
Speaker 1
And so when it comes to to teams and team work, I think there's a real issue at hand right now in our culture, in our in our world, in our marriages, where we are just so burnt out that we end up, burdened, overburdened, and then reacting in ways that are so unhealthy. Right? We react to people that we're serving alongside of in unhealthy ways.

00;34;33;10 - 00;35;04;25
Speaker 1
We lash out in marriage. And so what? What would you do and how would you encourage people in probably better rhythms ultimately. Because because I think we when it comes to burnout and and over it, we blame leaders. But ultimately the responsibility falls on us. And so what does it look like to to regulate yourself and to establish healthy rhythms so that you don't become overburdened or burnt out?

00;35;04;27 - 00;35;34;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think, as it relates to teamwork, I think, that, yeah, you have to personally lead yourself well. Yeah. So that you're not burnt out. Because if you are burning out, you this team will suffer. If you're not honest about your burnout, then the team will suffer. If you're just getting all the work done and just gritting your teeth and doing the team will suffer, eventually.

00;35;34;24 - 00;36;00;12
Speaker 2
So I think that it's so important that you are, personally. Personally. Well, and and have boundaries. I mean, I we've talked to this with some of our employees and our staff and talking to them about, you know, sometimes you're saying yes to other people on the team, and, you don't have to say yes. You have to have boundaries within your work.

00;36;00;12 - 00;36;18;07
Speaker 2
You have to have a clear understanding of what the expectations are of you in the workplace. So if you're taking on other people's work and you're doing it but begrudgingly, but keeping a happy face on, and continuing to do it and say yes, then the burnout is, you know, it's on you.

00;36;18;13 - 00;36;40;13
Speaker 1
Yeah. You've overburden yourself. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think of Exodus, right? Chapter 18, when Moses is having everyone come to him with every single dispute and we're talking about, like, 2 million people. Yeah. And he's just sitting there from morning till night just dealing with every little dispute. And then his father in law comes in is like, what are you doing?

00;36;40;15 - 00;37;10;13
Speaker 1
Like, let's break these. Let's establish leaders over groups of 50 and 100 and the smaller disputes they'll deal with. And then the big ones that they can't handle, they'll bring those to you. Yes. And Moses is like, wow, great idea. So he was overburdened. He was being burnt out. Yeah. And that was you know, just from poor planning and decision making and leadership, he established a healthy structure and boom, like the the burden lifted and the burnout probably ceased.

00;37;10;16 - 00;37;27;22
Speaker 1
And so that's just a great prime example for us of in our work, in our roles, in our teams, even in our marriage, right? That we share the burden, we share the load. We have those conversations about like, hey, there's too much on my plate, or I need to let go of some things I need to say notice.

00;37;27;24 - 00;37;49;14
Speaker 1
And then for me, the biggest thing that dissuades, I don't know if that's the right word, that dissuades us from burnout is is just, rhythm of Sabbath. Yeah. And so I just want to encourage everyone here, you know, if we're going to have healthy teamwork in our marriage, in our jobs, in our lives, like, we have to have a rhythm of a Sabbath, and that means rest.

00;37;49;14 - 00;38;15;08
Speaker 1
Like healthy rest, healthy connection in that rest day with the Lord, but also with one another. And that's what Christy was talking about earlier. Like our Friday, which is our Sabbath, is a is a restful day where we have more time to connect with the Lord, but we also have more time to connect with each other, which brings rest and rejuvenation to our relationship to and our marriage.

00;38;15;11 - 00;38;38;29
Speaker 1
And so do you have that. You know, that's what I want to ask everyone out there, like, are you practicing the rhythm of rest and Sabbath? Because if you're not, it's probably a good reason why you feel stretched thin, overburdened, burnt out all the time. Because God rested. He commanded us to rest. And yet it's a spiritual practice and commandment that we've avoided.

00;38;39;01 - 00;39;02;10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's a fair thing to say that if you are not being healthy personally, then what you're bringing to a team is unhealthy, and you therefore create an unhealthy team you know you're part of and you become the talk, then so to say, and it's easy toxicity just breeds toxicity. So I would think too, as it relates to teamwork.

00;39;02;10 - 00;39;26;27
Speaker 2
Another thing I would say maybe not a pitfall, but an enemy to teamwork is not, not defining who your enemy actually is. Everyone has a common goal, but in teams it teams can get unhealthy when they don't have a common enemy, and they're only. And then they end up fighting one another, each other rather than the common goal.

00;39;26;27 - 00;39;57;19
Speaker 2
The common vision, the common enemy. There's something coming against your team. When I think about it, with marriage so often the your spouse becomes your enemy. But right, the the enemy should actually be the enemies of your soul that is trying to, disrupt any God union, kingdom building unit that has come together. Spouses identify that there's an enemy against your marriage, not making your spouse the enemy.

00;39;57;19 - 00;40;17;07
Speaker 2
And I think in teams, we have to understand that to and identify it's a little bit more intricate in organizations and church staff and everything. But, a lot of times it's, identifying who the common enemy is rather than fighting one another. And that's when teams get real toxic.

00;40;17;09 - 00;40;41;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, that's, that's such a good, point. And maybe, ending point for us is just this idea of, like, make sure you're fighting the right battles. Yeah, and the right enemy. Yeah, because I don't want to fight you, Chris. Even though I do. And even though at times we do have conflict, and ultimately conflict is not bad, right?

00;40;41;08 - 00;40;59;13
Speaker 1
We talked about it like having the hard conversations, and not being conflict avoidant. Conflict isn't bad. We say it. We've said it so many times on this podcast. We say it when we do premarital counseling. They conflict is the price we pay for the deepening level of intimacy that we want, right? We want to be more intimate with one another closer.

00;40;59;15 - 00;41;19;09
Speaker 1
And that only comes about by conflict. But ultimately, the conflicts that we have don't mean you're my enemy. It means we're working through tension because we're meant to be in team. We're meant to be a team, and we're meant to operate with one vision as a team. And not seeing that person or even a person on your team as your enemy.

00;41;19;13 - 00;41;42;27
Speaker 1
Yeah, ultimately, we need to probably have hard, harder conversations and dig into the conflict and pull out all the junk so that that enemy can actually become someone that I'm walking in unity with. Yeah, and then I can accomplish something together. If we're fighting one another, we're never going to accomplish anything. Right? But if we're in unity with one another through the conflict, now, we can build together.

00;41;42;27 - 00;42;08;11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I guarantee that when another person has become the enemy, it's because of, Ask yourself, are you being prideful about wanting things your way or the highway? Are you feeling deficient as a leader? So you're trying to prove yourself? I mean, there's so many things that would contribute to making somebody on your team that God placed on your team, that God placed you in relationship with.

00;42;08;14 - 00;42;30;10
Speaker 2
He's wanting he's wanting unity. The thing about teamwork to me is that he's wanting unity more than your perceived effectiveness, because effectiveness in the kingdom of God, if we are called to be kingdom builders, is unity. You know, he's building us together to be the he's forming us together in order to be presence carriers is what Ephesians 222 says.

00;42;30;10 - 00;42;59;20
Speaker 2
And so God's kingdom purpose for teams is that we would be, presence carriers and dis unified teams, like, just empty out the presence and the power that we can have to accomplish, a goal. But, you know, with pride and division and, not not having humility and disunity, that just doesn't propel God's, goal forward.

00;42;59;20 - 00;43;01;15
Speaker 2
And that's unity.

00;43;01;17 - 00;43;24;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, Christy, this has been, I think, challenging and enlightening conversation for us as men, the men of faith, as the sisters sisterhood. I just encourage you guys that you would apply this, to your jobs, your workplaces, teams, you serve on a church. But ultimately also to your marriages, your relationships there. Because, man, we were meant to do this together and build together, fulfill the vision together.

00;43;24;27 - 00;43;32;04
Speaker 1
And so, yeah. Team our strength. Like, hey, connect here, dap dap up. Like, okay.

00;43;32;04 - 00;43;38;10
Speaker 2
Oh, that was good. Snap. Teamwork makes the dream work. I was so glad we didn't say that or lead with it, but I just need to throw it out there before I throw.

00;43;38;10 - 00;43;39;08
Speaker 1
It out there a little bit ago.

00;43;39;09 - 00;43;40;03
Speaker 2
Oh you did. Yeah.

00;43;40;04 - 00;43;41;15
Speaker 1
Oh, like in the middle.

00;43;41;15 - 00;43;46;25
Speaker 2
I think we need to work on listening. Good teams and team. They work to listen. Well.

00;43;46;29 - 00;43;47;14
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;43;47;14 - 00;43;47;26
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;43;47;27 - 00;43;49;08
Speaker 1
There's no I in team.

00;43;49;08 - 00;43;50;26
Speaker 2
Yes. Let's do all of.

00;43;50;26 - 00;43;53;11
Speaker 1
The other team sayings.

00;43;53;13 - 00;43;59;28
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. Team the dream. I do have a call up. We do that.

00;44;00;02 - 00;44;05;02
Speaker 1
I think I just gave it, you know, that you would apply this to your marriage, your life. That is the call up.

00;44;05;04 - 00;44;09;18
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, my, what we like to do is we like to give what? Book recommendations?

00;44;09;23 - 00;44;10;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. You got.

00;44;10;06 - 00;44;12;24
Speaker 2
One? No, I don't right now. I'm sure you did.

00;44;12;24 - 00;44;14;21
Speaker 1
You reference Brené Brown out.

00;44;14;21 - 00;44;27;07
Speaker 2
Oh, you know what? That was a great one. Dare to lead. Dare to lead is when you're leading yourself, you lead your teams well. Dare to lead. I remember, taking our staff through it, and there was a couple in our staff that had breakthrough in their marriage.

00;44;27;07 - 00;44;27;20
Speaker 1
Because of.

00;44;27;20 - 00;44;36;12
Speaker 2
That. After having done that book and really understanding vulnerability and, clear, kind communication. So yeah, there you go. Thank you. Dare to lead Brené Brown.

00;44;36;19 - 00;44;37;06
Speaker 1
Let's go.

00;44;37;08 - 00;44;37;17
Speaker 2
Okay.

00;44;37;20 - 00;44;46;18
Speaker 1
All right. Well, hey, thanks for joining us. Man of Faith sisterhood crossover episode. We did it. Now go do it. Grace and peace.