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On the WorkWell Podcast, Jen Fisher — Human Sustainability Leader at Deloitte and Editor-at-Large, Human Sustainability at Thrive Global — sits down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations about how we can develop a way of living and working built on human sustainability, starting with ourselves.
Jen (00:00):
I'm really excited to share that my TEDx talk, the future of work is out. It combines my personal story with practical ways we can all come together to create a better world of work by focusing on human sustainability. Just search for Jen Fisher TEDx on your preferred search engine to watch my talk, and please join me in the movement to make wellbeing the future of work by sharing it with your networks. Thank you. Confidence is a huge asset. It increases your motivation, decreases your fear and anxiety, and it empowers you to be your authentic self. But building confidence isn't always easy, especially in the face of hardship.
Jen (00:41):
This is the Work Well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher and I'm so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things related to personal purpose and wellbeing. I'm here with Selena Reni. She's a recognized author, speaker, and consultant on leadership. In 2018, she gave an award-winning TEDx Talk entitled, interrupting Gender Bias Through Meeting Culture. Selena also writes a column for MSNBC's. Know your Value on the most pressing leadership and career issues, her latest book, quick Confidence, be Authentic, boost Connections, and Make Bold Betts on Yourself was born out of a viral newsletter she started in 2020 to help people build their confidence through small daily actions.
Selena (01:30):
Jen, thank you so much for having me.
Jen (01:33):
You are so welcome. I'm so excited for this conversation. I feel like we've been talking about having you on the show for quite a while, and I've had the good opportunity to know you for many years. But I want our audience to know who you are. So tell us who you are, what's your story, and then I wanna talk about, um, kind of what led you to write your most recent book, quick Confidence.
Selena (01:57):
That sounds great. And Jen, I feel really lucky to know you and consider you a mentor and just a really incredible model. So thank you.
Jen (02:08):
Thank you.
Selena (02:09):
Always kept that connection up. Well, for me, my mission is to really help people be confident self-advocates. And so this is my third book, quick Confidence, and I train leaders across different organizations to build their presence and their self-confidence. And I really love writing about some of those issues too. Um, and blogs and articles. Um, you know, during the Pandemic, Jen, I was feeling some of my own confidence getting squelched, you know, I think like a lot of us, and I kept thinking to myself, what if I could provide like a little fortifier, like a little vitamin every week of confidence, not just to help me, but to help others. I was hearing so many people saying, I feel so uncertain about everything. Um, and so I started that newsletter after talking myself out of it a couple of times and wouldn't, you know, it, an amazing thing happened and it went viral. It really became a community, which was a beautiful thing. Not just a newsletter, but a community where we could all share what we were doing to build confidence. And so it's a, a thrill to say that today it's a book.
Jen (03:28):
Yeah. That's so amazing. Congratulations. And I think right up front I want to kind of dispel any myths around confidence. And I'm sure you get this all the time, like what's the difference between like healthy, good confidence and what we perceive to kind of be negative or potentially like ego? Like talk me through that because confidence is a really positive thing and it's also really good for your wellbeing. Um, but I feel like there's a lot of myths around it.
Selena (04:00):
Yes, you're right. And it's kind of a spectrum, isn't it, where you can suffer from under confidence on one side and maybe overconfidence on the other extreme. I think that really sweet spot in the middle is a knowing sense that you have skills and you have positive traits. It's knowing on a deep level you're able to face challenges and, and deal with curve balls in life. And I think there's a general sense, you know, you are your best resource, like your best compass in many ways. That doesn't mean, you know, ignoring other people, um, but that you're not just looking for that external validation. I think on the other side that overconfidence and maybe, you know, we've all seen this in action, we've probably seen somebody overdo it and rub people the wrong way. I think those instances, a person's not acknowledging other people's viewpoints, you know, it's like, this is how it is, folks , lemme tell you how it is. Um, you know, you might be quick to shoot other people's ideas down or just send this message that you have nothing left to learn. And that is a quick way to kind of turn people off.
Jen (05:17):
So it sounds like confidence also requires a certain level of self-awareness. ,
Selena (05:24):
Yes, absolutely. Because, you know, otherwise you can put a confident mask on
Jen (05:31):
Mm-Hmm. ,
Selena (05:32):
But that might look like somebody else. That may not be you. You know? And how can you be memorable? How can people know the real you if you're not cultivating some of that awareness to say, yeah, what do I stand for? You know? Mm-Hmm. , who am I, what is especially important to me in my values.
Jen (05:53):
Yeah. I I love that. Okay, so let's talk about your book or the title of your book. Um, quick Confidence. So tell me what quick confidence is exactly. And you talked a little bit about kind of how it was born, but why is it so important?
Selena (06:11):
Well, it's so important because for most of us, we don't have a lifetime, you know, to build confidence if we wanna, you know, make bold moves or make an impact or maybe go after our dream opportunity, start an amazing nonprofit, whatever it may be, right? We don't wanna wait, uh, forever to do that. So in my book, my goal is to share small, like bite-size everyday actions we can take to build that lasting confidence. And I don't know about you, Jen, but I know I had this, uh, idea at one point that, you know, confidence was kind of this elusive trait. You're, you're born with it or you're not. And one of the things I like to dispel is that, no, this is learnable. This is something we can build our confidence muscle. And it really is made up of three elements. It is our beliefs, our mindsets, it's our body language and the way we carry ourselves and it's our interactions. And so it's really exciting when you can break something so, you know, um, misty down into parts that, you know, people can work on every day.
Jen (07:29):
Yeah. And it's so interesting that you bring that up, that I guess if I reflect on confidence , I think, I think probably as a child I had a certain level of confidence. I think in some ways all children do. Um, and then as you, as you get older, you know, you're, for me at least, you know, I think my confidence waned in certain situations and then you start to build it again over time. And, and I think what you're saying resonates with me so much because it's quick confidence is, you know, it, it feels like it's like a micro step for your wellbeing. And we talk about that a lot on this, on, on this podcast is like, what are the like bite-size things that you can do that, you know, doing them every day is going to positively impact your wellbeing. And I feel like that's exactly what you're talking about when it comes to quick confidence. It's these daily things that you can do that are really small. Um, but that, you know, you put them all together, you know, and they give you that confidence in the moment that you need that. And, and, but then also over time it helps you build more and more like healthy confidence.
Selena (08:36):
I totally agree. I love that point that you make. 'cause you're right with wellness, with your own wellbeing, um, and certainly with confidence it can be feel like an overwhelming proposition.
Jen (08:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Selena (08:49):
You know, like, where do I start? Maybe a person assumes they need to be all the way on the most like, sophisticated end of the spectrum. Um, and that can stop us in our tracks from taking any action. You know, I I'm picturing some incredibly healthy every day, you know, practicing all the right steps, meditating ex you know, person. But is that,
Jen (09:15):
There's very few of those people I can tell you that I'm not one of 'em . Yeah.
Selena (09:21):
Right. And no wonder though, that stops people.
Jen (09:23):
Yeah.
Selena (09:23):
I think it can be, uh, maybe like a counterintuitive and hopefully refreshing message that you're encouraged to start small.
Jen (09:31):
Yeah. You're encouraged to start small and also you're encouraged to know that like you're human and you're gonna screw it up, right? Like, you're not always gonna get it right or you're not, I mean, from a confidence perspective, there's just gonna be days where you don't feel confident, right? Like, or things that you're doing that you don't feel confident. And that's okay. 'cause that's part of the process.
Selena (09:51):
Absolutely. And yeah, I think there's a little hidden bonus in there too, which is even if you do get up the confidence to maybe, um, reach out to somebody you really admire, or you get up the confidence to go for an opportunity you're very excited about, even if none of those things pan out, you know, I, I'd argue there's even some confidence to be gained in giving yourself some credit for the forward movement you're making, you know, for the, even looking at it as practice.
Jen (10:22):
I love that. I love that. Okay, so you mentioned kind of, and, and this is in your book, the three main categories to building confidence. Can you walk us through those?
Selena (10:32):
You know, I think interpersonal skills are a, a huge thing and make a big difference with our confidence. And when we have more confidence, you know, we're willing to put ourselves out there more. Um, and, and I know something you've covered Jen, like isolation tends not to be so good for us. Um, you know, particularly in the, the over the long term. So one interpersonal tip I have for people is called Dog Code . Dog Code. And so if you think about it, Jen, when you go to somebody's house who has a dog, you know, what do they do when you open that door and you walk in?
Jen (11:14):
Well, it depends on whether they're well trained or not , but my, my dog will jump all over you and greet you and lick you and play with you and try to get your attention. .
Selena (11:26):
Yes. Nailed it. And, and your dog sounds pretty typical in that way. , you know, they don't sit in the corner and kind of overthink it. They don't talk it over with a friend first. They come right up to you.
Jen (11:40):
Mm-Hmm. .
Selena (11:41):
And I think there's something really wonderful we can learn, which is, you know, rather than getting stuck in overthinking, which, you know, some of us could win the Olympics at overthinking. Um, you know, oh, I really wish that person would come up to me, or, oh, they look kind of busy. Uh, I'm not sure I'm gonna go up to them now. Maybe I'll think about doing it later. You know, we can get a little bit stuck in our heads doing this. And when you adopt this dog code, you know, you challenge yourself as a rule to go right up to somebody and initiate contact. And it's just, it's wonderful how that can like almost double your social confidence when you do it as a habit. It skips it's sidelines, that overthinking step.
Jen (12:31):
I love that. And I think there, I mean, anything that I can learn from a dog, I'm all in. So .
Selena (12:38):
Yeah, right. Sometimes it's like unlikely places we're getting confidence in leadership tips.
Jen (12:44):
All right, so that's the first category. Tell me about the other two.
Selena (12:47):
Yeah, I think one of the things that can be so wonderfully helpful is from a mindset, from a beliefs perspective to affirm our ourselves. And, and so not just in a general platitudes kind of way, but to really address with a mantra, for example, your specific insecurity you might be feeling, you know? So maybe somebody, I was talking to someone recently who was looking at a job interview and questioning their place a little bit in that interview in that company, you know? And so a mantra in that situation might be something like, I earned my place here, you know, or I 400% belong in this interview conversation. Um, somebody else might be kind of, uh, afraid to maybe make a mistake, um, to put their foot in their mouth. So they might say something to themselves like, Hey, if I take a wrong turn, I can right myself, you know, just like a cat has a writing reflex and they can land on all four feet. It's okay if I word something oddly, I can go back and restate it later. There's just something to be said about specific mantras that really speak to our doubts, you know, or our fears in that moment.
Jen (14:10):
Yeah, I love that. I, I think that mantras are really powerful and underutilized, certainly by me . Um, okay. And what's the, the third one?
Selena (14:20):
Yeah, so one of the things, um, that I wanna encourage people to do is if you're in a situation, let's say a networking event or maybe a party in your personal life, there are times where all of us do that and we're not feeling terribly confident. In fact, we may feel kind of very much other maybe unable to break the ice or a little bit uncomfortable. That's okay. It happens to all of us. But when we're feeling that way, it's often the case that we kind of shrink our body language. You know, we might take up cover in the corner of the room, um, you know, we might make kind of furtive eye contact. Uh, if we do talk to somebody, we're low talking, you know, our arms might be a, a kind of protective and glued to our, our rib cage, you know, as we try to navigate this situation.
Selena (15:17):
And I really wanna encourage people to do the opposite. Don't play small, even if you're not feeling particularly welcome, confident in a particular situation. In fact, really claim your personal bubble of space. And you can do that like starting at your feet using what I call surfer stance, where you stand with your legs a little more than shoulder width, the part to really own, like I said, your bubble of space and be willing to gesture freely, right? We see people who gesture as warmer and more engaging. You can make a point to stand tall, you know, to, to kind of try to brush the ceiling with your head to really think about standing tall in that way. The idea here is don't shrink in a situation like this. Be conspicuous. Celebrate what your mama gave you because it sends a really powerful message to your own psyche that in fact you do belong.
Jen (16:20):
Yeah, I love that. I, yeah, I tend to use the excuse that I'm an introvert, so I, uh, I make a better wallflower . That's the story I tell myself anyway.
Selena (16:34):
Well, and you know, the thing of course about introverts is like they, you have so some of the deepest, richest conversation with them, you know? Yeah. Sometimes it is that, that initiating that can be the hardest part.
Jen (16:47):
Yeah, I love that. So what are the obstacles? Like, why aren't people doing this? Like, what is it that is keeping us from building our confidence or feeling confident?
Selena (17:00):
I think it's, it's a number of different things. Sometimes it's a habit of kind of self-deprecation. There is a old comedy saying that like, the only safe joke you can make is the one at your own expense, right? It's the only one that kind of, everyone will laugh at and make nobody will take particular issue with. And that may be true in the world of confidence, but when we have a habit of, of self-deprecation, it can often harm our confidence. And here's an example of it. Like for example, deflecting compliments. You know, when you deflect compliments, you miss out on this huge channel of information, and that is your strengths. Your strengths are just as important for you to know about as your weaker points. So if somebody says, Hey, great job on the report, you don't wanna say, oh, it was nothing or anybody would've done it. One of the things I recommend people do is say thank you and add something to it. You know, like embrace that compliment, um, turn towards it with your words. Thank you. I'm thrilled with how the, the report turned out too, or just Thank you. That means a lot to me. I think when we chronically deflect, it can become a little too believable that in fact, we did nothing.
Jen (18:27):
Yeah, yeah. Or that, you know, we haven't reached some point of enoughness yet, , if you will. Yeah. Yeah.
Selena (18:35):
Yes.
Jen (18:36):
So let's talk a little bit about self-care and, you know, focusing on your own wellbeing and the impact that that has on your ability to be confident or to feel confident.
Selena (18:50):
I think self-care is so important and we, we need to do this in so many different ways, uh, that I think can build our confidence. You know, in my own book writing journey, I dealt with some rejections, um, from my book, and it, it was really tough. I, I really ruminated on some of those rejections. And there was a little self-care practice that had the magic to bring me out of that zone of, of kind of like, ugh, what a fail. Um, this did not go how I hoped, you know, this must, this must be a deeper message about me as a person, right? And that was, um, a smile file. And I don't know if you have one, Jen, but
Jen (19:40):
Mm, I do. I do. I don't call it a smile file, but I'm changing the name right now. It's right . Oh, I like that.
Selena (19:50):
Not as much. Yes. This is actually something I keep in my file cabinet, and I'm always so happy when I bump into it by accident. But I think even better when you need that perspective on your life, maybe on, on who you are as a person. And for me, that smile file includes, um, things that make me feel good. It's everything from, I have a really ridiculous picture of my girlfriends and I in different color rainbow wigs, having just the time of our lives. Um, a very sweet letter from a coaching client, you know, who felt that that gaining confidence had changed her life, sonogram of my twins. So many things in there. But that remind me, Jen, I am a lot more than this one dark moment that right now feels like everything, but wow, what a way to get that change in perspective, um, that I think is so needed. So just a little self-care vitamin I really love in that smile file or feel good file.
Jen (21:02):
Yeah. I love that. There's all kinds of interesting things I think in my feel-good file. And, you know, I was, as you were talking, I was also reflecting on, you know, one thing that, that I do that perhaps is a, is a little bit of a mantra or maybe a mix, but, you know, I'm one of those weird people that really does enjoy working out. And I know that one of the places that I actually feel most comfortable and most confident in myself and my abilities is in the gym . And, you know, so when I'm feeling less confident or like I don't belong in a situation, I try to kind of channel like, okay, I'm just gonna pretend I'm in the gym, and like, how would I feel in if I was in the gym? You know, in that moment kind of channel that same energy. And so I think that's a way also that people can kind of utilize, you know, especially if there's something that you do for your wellbeing that really, you know, that you've spent maybe years building a skill or something like that, that is just your space where you always feel confident and kind of channeling that, um, in the times where you feel less confident. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but that was kind of what was coming to mind for me, .
Selena (22:10):
Yeah, that's so beautiful. I love that. First of all, you found confidence there and like what an empowering message to people that even if you are a novice at something, you probably have transferable confidence kind of skills, right? Because I'm thinking about all the things it takes Jen to keep going to the gym, right? All the patience. Um, right. Because our, our strength training can be a, a slower journey, even if we are consistent at it. Um, you know, the self-talk you probably engage in to get yourself there, totally , right? There's so many wonderful things, and I really love that perspective that nothing's wasted. If anything, we can borrow maybe from one part of our life and apply it to another.
Jen (23:02):
Love it. So let's talk about, you can't talk about confidence without talking about imposter syndrome, I feel like, so let's talk about imposter syndrome, what it is and how you overcome it.
Selena (23:14):
Yeah. You know, imposter syndrome is so common, it is something I'm asked about every single time. I, I talk about this issue and I think sometimes my, my feedback, my, um, advice for people may be a little bit counterintuitive, but let's kind of talk about what it is. It's when those feelings of I am not enough, get in your head, maybe even take over. And I don't wanna totally pathologize it as some terrible thing that all of us, you know, should be rid of. I think one of the things I've learned from interviewing lots of people, successful people at different levels, is you don't necessarily grow out of imposter syndrome. You don't necessarily graduate to where you never experienced doubts. So I think one of the things we can do is reframe in our minds what confidence is, you know, that it's not like this sleek, polished, effortlessly cool, um, person who's only self-reliant, right? But it's actually somebody who is got a learning mindset. You know, they're not afraid to maybe ask somebody else for help or input. They're very much in that, um, learning mode and may have some doubts that's okay
Jen (24:45):
And have probably failed many times before . Absolutely.
Selena (24:49):
Absolutely. In fact, some people like might even argue the further up you go, you know, you are just, just like anyone. You're taking some wrong directions, you're getting some rejections. Yeah. You're having some fails happen. So I think it's more about how we manage through those imposter thoughts. And so one of the first things I think we need to do is accept it, accept some of those feelings that, hey, I'm taking a new role on, or I am gonna do something I find a little daunting maybe in my personal life or with a fitness goal. I mean, it could be, uh, a range of things that's probably going to kick up some, am I, can I do this kind of thoughts? Do I have what it takes, you know, to do this? And, and that is okay, once you accept it, you can do something about imposter syndrome.
Selena (25:44):
And I think one of the things we can do is bring some balance to the stories we tell ourselves. You know, rarely is it is a situation just all negative and bad. And so I think we need to catch ourselves when we notice we are speaking about something as fully negative all bad. You know, if you say to yourself something like, Ugh, I did a terrible job and my presentation yesterday, I'm probably gonna get fired. We all might have that kind of thought from time to time, but how about bringing that balance some more, uh, maybe rational thought, not just emotion, you know? So you might say something to yourself like, um, you know what, I actually do a pretty good job presenting most of the time I left a couple things out of my presentation, but I'm gonna use that and I'm gonna learn for next time we need to catch, we need to have a little alarm bell go off that says, wow, this is pretty far on the negative spectrum. And, um, let's Right-size this, let's, let's actually look at the more accurate view.
Jen (26:55):
Yeah. It, that, that resonates with me so much. I'm, you, you can't see me, but I have this huge smile on my face because I, like you said, I could probably win the Olympics on catastrophizing , you know, and what I will say is that sometimes it's really hard for my own in like internal alarm bell to go off. And so if you find that with yourself, like my husband, my spouse is really good at like, okay, so like what's, you know, he'll like, take me down the path of like, okay, you've gone to all the way to the worst, like worst case scenario, even if worst case scenario does happen. Okay, so what, you know, like , you know, we'll, we'll still be okay, but he's very good at kind of walking me back and saying, well, like, did anything go right? Like, it's not all, nothing is ever all good or all bad, right? And so if you can't find that within yourself, which I hope most people can, I do struggle with that, find somebody that can be that alarm bell for you and kind of walk you back, .
Selena (27:51):
Yes. And I think a lot of people can relate to what you're saying, and it, it, it is true. It, it kind of requires us to put away our microscope on that situation and get out our telescope Yeah. And look at it a little more broadly, or maybe have that partner or friend or colleague who's willing to be that. Yeah.
Jen (28:11):
Yep. I, I love that. So when I, I think about times where I have struggled to feel confident or in conversations that other people have come to me, you know, to talk like, especially kind of in the workplace, like when you're working with people that you know, just there's not compatibility or maybe it's toxic or you just don't get along for some reason. So like what, you know, what strategies do you use for keeping up your own confidence when you're in an environment, whether it's work or otherwise, that you feel kind of constantly keeps you down?
Selena (28:49):
Hmm. I have so much empathy for that situation. 'cause it, it can feel terrible and it can really, um, kind of color your whole life, not just your work life when you're feeling particularly miserable or in a toxic place. And so I hope that people, and you, Jen, will appreciate this because this, this is really about doing less, not more not adding to your pile, but if somebody's toxic and they come around you, particularly, you know, if you don't have to engage with them every single time, one of the best techniques you can use is called Gray Rock. I don't know if you've heard of that, but
Jen (29:35):
I have not heard of that. So I'm listening ,
Selena (29:39):
Like, let's say the form of this person's toxicity is they are especially, um, gossipy and it makes you feel bad to get sucked into. You don't enjoy, you know, listening to all this hearsay and innuendo. Um, you might use this technique, gray Rock, which is essentially behaving like a gray rock, so that when they come around you, you are not engaging with that information. You might say something like, after they spill juicy gossip, huh, okay. You know, you might say the minimum, you're not looking animated, you're not looking excited, you're not looking like, oh, please tell me more what happened after that.
Jen (30:24):
So you're not encouraging the bad behavior .
Selena (30:26):
That's right. And you're protecting, I think, in the process some of your energy, you know, because sometimes it's all too easy to get sucked into that. You know, you end up asking follow-up questions and you're like, wait a minute, I don't even wanna know this , how did I become part of this? So I think in those ways, uh, it can be important to use gray rock. I think just as much those voluntary moments where you have a choice, where you eat your lunch or even protecting kind of your time around small talk with that person. If it always leads you to feeling awful or bad, excusing yourself, having a place to be, you know, I, I need to take care of something. Um, I need to prepare for something, I'm on my way to get some other thing done. It's more than okay to protect your peace and look out for yourself in that way by limiting the engagement with these folks.
Jen (31:26):
Thank you for giving us that permission. . I, I think sometimes that's what we need is that, you know, we need that permission that it's okay to not engage with the things in people that don't make you feel good.
Selena (31:39):
. I think so I, I think we need to give it to ourselves that like yellow permission slip, you know, that says, you know, you're not everyone's cup of tea and everybody doesn't need to be yours. Something, Jen, you've been part of teaching me, I feel like is also your energy isn't just this constantly renewable source in a, you have got to be your own number one guardian of it,
Jen (32:05):
Right? Yep. Boundaries, . Yeah. So let's talk about, you know, leadership and as a leader, how can you help others on your team or within your organization build confidence? What are some small things that you can do?
Selena (32:23):
Yes, leaders are so important. Uh, and I'll never forget Jen, a mentor of mine at my first job, my first kind of, uh, big girl adult job, just turning to me one day. I was a project manager, and she said, why don't you give the presentation to the client?
Jen (32:42):
Hmm.
Selena (32:43):
And I, I felt like there was fireworks in the sky. I was like so elated that she would think me capable of doing that. I wanna cry thinking about it, how much it meant to me and my confidence. So I just wanna remind people that for many of us, our best teachers, they saw us and they saw that we were capable of something more, you know, and, and they maybe nudged us. They encouraged us in some way. So while it might seem like a little action to you, it often is not little to the person on the receiving end. So looking for those chances to give somebody their big break, um, you know, to tell them you think that they're capable of more than they're doing. Are there little local experiments, opportunities where they could stretch themselves? Maybe it's giving the presentation. Maybe it's just simply asking, you know, would XY, z appeal to you?
Selena (33:44):
You know, does doing something like that, getting in front of clients, being more visible, writing an article, whatever it may be, how does that sound to you? And kind of planting seeds. I think another wonderful thing that leaders can do is give somebody a great introduction. I've had, um, lots of professionals tell me, you know, I was so hurt. I I'm the director of marketing and I was introduced to a group as Slide Girl or, or some kind of diminishing name that maybe felt jokey and funny to the person doing it, but felt the opposite of empowering, you know, to the person being in introduced. So I think all of us can do that and make a point to kind of get to know someone's experience so we can give them an awesome introduction. Meg brings 12 years of experience leading X, Y, Z, and we're really excited. She's on the team, or Pete's managed like four accounts just like this, and I know he's gonna bring a lot to our work. Again, it, it may be a, a small gesture on your part, but it can feel like a, like a grand entrance, you know, to somebody who's being introduced that way.
Jen (34:56):
I love that one so much in particular, just because I think about, especially with the amount of speaking that I do, and there are some introductions that the person didn't even ask me anything about me, but they did this incredible introduction and I'm always like, can you just follow me around whenever I have to be introduced? Like, can you just come with me, , you know, speaking after you get one of those incredible introductions, you're right. Just the level of confidence, even as somebody who speaks all the time, when you get it introduced in a way that is thoughtful and celebratory and really shows who you are, it makes such a huge difference. And honestly, I did not even think about that until you just started to talk about it. So thank you for that .
Selena (35:47):
Yeah, sure. And, and I think that's such a awesome word for it. Celebratory.
Jen (35:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Like celebrating who you are. So, all right, I have one final question, and I think we've talked a little bit about this in the context of, you know, imposter syndrome and other things, but we've all heard this term, fake it till you make it . So do you believe in it, ?
Selena (36:09):
So this is a really interesting topic, fake it till you make it. Um, and my take on it is that sure, it can absolutely work for you in the short term. You know, maybe you are, are again, using our interview example, you know, you are feeling lots of pressure in that moment and you're maybe putting on a confident, uh, face, could that help you, um, actually secure the job, potentially. Yes. It, it absolutely could. And so if that's something that could work for you to your benefit, sure. Here's why I don't think it's a really long-term plan. What's gonna help you feel like a truly confident person is to have a healthy respect for your strengths. You know? So not just being able to play a temporary act, uh, of confidence, but actually cultivating a sense of knowing that you have something to offer. The value you bring is, uh, unique and distinct. And I think even better if you could become conversant in that value, you know, what makes you different, you're comfortable talking about and acknowledging those things. So that's really where I would put the focus, if you need that, fake it till you make it here and there. Okay? But how about that longer term, um, more lasting confidence from your strengths. And it really requires you, I think, to change those stories you tell yourself, um, about yourself to lock in the right stories and to bring that balance.
Jen (37:49):
Well, that's a mic drop moment. So , I, I think we should end there. Um, but Selena, this was a great conversation. I always learned so much from you and that didn't, that didn't stop today. So thank you for your time for what you put out into the world and for helping us all feel a little bit more confident.
Selena (38:13):
Thank you, Jen, for being an incredible champion and mentor. You
Jen (38:17):
Are so welcome. I am so grateful Selena could be with us today to talk about confidence. Thank you to our producers, rivet 360 and our listeners. You can find the Work Well podcast series on deloitte.com, or you can visit various pod catchers using the keyword work Well, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. So you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the Work Well podcast series, or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jen Fisher or on Twitter at Jen Fish 23. We're always open to your recommendations and feedback. And of course, if you like what you hear, please share post and like this podcast. Thank you and be well. The information, opinions, and recommendations expressed by guests on this Deloitte podcast series are for general information and should not be considered as specific advice or services.