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"Success doesn't come without sacrifice" - Natacha Océane
In this weeks episode I chat to YouTuber and Ironman athlete Natacha Océane. Natacha quit her PhD in Biophysics to start a YouTube channel that tests fitness theories and translates the science behind health and fitness to address information gaps. In our conversation we chat about her feelings around quitting academia, fears of putting herself on the internet and how she built mental resilience and self awareness through athletic performance.
Dr Ali Abdaal is the world’s most followed productivity expert and author of Feel-Good Productivity, the brand new book that reveals why the secret to productivity isn’t discipline, it’s joy. In his podcast, Deep Dive, Ali sits down with inspiring creators, thinkers, entrepreneurs and high performers to help listeners build lives that they love.
Ali’s cheerful style, positive approach, and well-researched content have made him a trusted voice when it comes to productivity. The internet means that we have access to more knowledge and information than ever before - but it can also be overwhelming. So, Ali and his expert guests focus on simple, scientifically proven, and actionable steps you can take to make real changes in your life.
Ali’s a firm believer that happiness isn’t the result of success - in fact, happiness is the key to success in the first place. Ali made this discovery while working as a doctor in a chaotic hospital ward. In the past, hard work had been the answer to every obstacle in his life. But no amount of hard work was going to combat panic and burnout.
So, Ali dedicated himself to figuring out a new approach to productivity - one that focuses on enjoying the journey and working towards truly meaningful goals. Deep Dive, with its authentic and engaging conversations, will give you all the insights you need to do just that.
Natacha Océane 0:00
There's something about not setting limits that drives me to want to just keep going and going and going. Okay, so if there's something that everyone's thinking, wow, this is kind of rural challenge, sign me up for it.
Ali Abdaal 0:11
Hello and welcome to deep dive the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfilment at work and in life. My name is Ali and in each episode, I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. In this week's episode of Deep Dive, I chat to YouTuber and Ironman athlete and Natasha Ozean. Frustrated by the gap between the findings of the scientific community and evidence based information reaching the general public, Natasha left her PhD in biophysics to start a YouTube channel that tests fitness theories and translates the science behind health and fitness. She's amassed a following of over 2 million across social media and her goal is to make fitness science accessible to everyone in our conversation we discuss her feelings are on quitting academia and her initial fears about putting yourself on the internet
Natacha Océane 0:58
The feeling of having to get that scientific content out there to help as many people as possible so that he didn't fall into the same traps that I did was more important to me than that initial feeling of being uncomfortable. And that's why I kept going for it. And practice makes perfect, right?
Ali Abdaal 1:15
as well as uncovering how she cultivated mental resilience and self awareness through athletic performance. So I guess the first thing I wanted to ask you, you're famously do these Ironman things, like what on earth possesses someone to want to swim for two and a half miles cycle for 120? And then run for 20? Why? Why do people do this? Why do you why do you do this?
Unknown Speaker 1:36
Well, it was like, a part of my life that I just, I really liked setting challenges for myself, okay, just because I feel I feel like sometimes we can be really prone to setting limits for ourselves and being like, No, I'm not going to do that. Or I can't do that. And for me, like, there's something about not setting limits that drives me to want to just keep going and going and going. Okay, so if there's something that everyone's thinking, wow, this is kind of rural challenge, sign me up for it, because I just, I just wanted to, I don't know what it is, it just drives me to want to do something that I feel like in the past, I would have been like, I can't do that. Okay, so I guess that for me is why I chose to do the Ironman.
Ali Abdaal 2:20
How, how did you first get how do you first get into it?
Natacha Océane 2:23
Well, I so I used to do a lot of athletics I used I grew up just being really active, my whole family was super active, so they never kind of let us play computer games. It was always just go outside, play, sign up to whatever you can and just be as active as possible. So when I was younger, secondary school, I used to do a lot of athletics, but I used to get really badly injured from it. So a lot of the cross training that I had to do was in the pool, cycling, lot of low impact exercise rather than like the hard on the track sprinting hurdles, high jump, which gave me like ridiculously bad shin splints. So I spent a good nine months doing cross training, which was, I think, my gateway to doing triathlon. Because previously to that I hadn't really done any kind of much cycling, or much. I'd done some swimming, but not really, I never really took it to another level. And then when I got to, it's really when I got to university, I was I just thought, you know what, as well as doing my degree, I also just want to do and I'm okay, sometimes there's no real like rational thinking behind it, I was just, I'm just going to do it, because I feel like that's a real challenge that I can set myself. By the three years once my three years is completed at uni, I'll do an Ironman, as I just signed up to the triathlon club and started doing Ironman training, okay, and it kind of I liked it because it meant I also didn't get super injured because I was I could balance out the swimming, the cycling and the running and not do so much high impact with the running. And then I ended up really liking the variety as well rather than just doing one single sport.
Ali Abdaal 4:07
So while you were at university, you know you're doing a degree and on the side you're training for triathlons and Iron Man's and stuff like what did your schedule look like?
Natacha Océane 4:15
So I did biochemistry so actually we had loads of lab days so the days were kind of nine to five for my for most days which is quite rare at uni because sometimes you have just like sporadic lessons here lessons that like especially like my English classmates. I just can't even imagine it. Yeah, but um yeah, I was was quite full on and it would be morning training and then evening training about five, six days a week. But I will stress that during times of exertion Am I really took that down to like hardly anything. So maybe seven weeks, 10 weeks before my exams, I would just solely focus on revising and learning because my priority really was just getting, I wanted to get a first that was the one thing that I went to uni for. That's the one like I was the first person out of my family to go to uni. So I was like, I need to do myself. And so, really, like the triathlon was like a nice bonus, but it wasn't. No, it was nowhere near as important. So, yeah, I guess what I mean by seasonality is that during the tight like term times, like the autumn term, and then spring term, I could train in the morning in the evenings, as well as kind of manage the manage that like the workload from uni. And then during the summer term, hardly any training, okay. And then during the summer break, because we would have really long breaks and so I love about units, you get amazingly stupidly long, and then it was just like all training. Okay, so then I would do like no work or training, and then I just get that all. So see, I told you to get down somehow. And, yeah, and then there would be loads of training during summer and then again, it will just kind of go back into that kind of
Ali Abdaal 6:26
Yeah, it's, it's training for these things fun?
Natacha Océane 6:31
well, so with triathlon, it's quite a social sport, okay. It's a social sport with the triathlon club at university. So there was a lot of us and people do different disciplines as well. So some people will just be doing sprint triathlon, some people do Olympic distance, some people do half Ironman, and some people do the fall. But when you train at uni, like you do a lot of the training together, you just kind of get split up into like a lane that maybe focuses more on endurance. And so that is quite fun. Because you get to meet really, really great, you get to meet people who have the same interests as you understand what it's like to go through uni and also train that hard, which is something that I didn't share with my housemates. my housemates are like, Why don't you come out and eventually, I stopped, I stopped getting the invites to come out because they just they just knew. And then when it came to doing my Ironman, actually, it's kind of a sad story in third year, we, unfortunately had to kind of kick not kick our coach out. But there was like, because a lot of the way that sports clubs are run at uni, is that they run by students. That was, that wasn't how the triathlon club was run at the time, it was run by the coaches, and they would pick compliance students, which ended up being me to be president or, yeah. And so when they wanted something done, they would just say, Can you sign this off? I would sign it off, because I just wanted to please someone. Yeah. And I was compliant. Okay. And, and we started to realise it. In my third year, we started to realise that actually, this kind of is not right, because we weren't doing we weren't a student club. It wasn't a student run club, it was run by the coaches, who were like in their 40s 50s. And weren't really like, they've gone to the university, but they hadn't. They weren't affiliate, they weren't students, they weren't professors. And so that kind of caused a massive rift, like it was too much drama for me to handle. And that last year became quite a lonely year, because it just meant that a lot of the training, I mean, I hate conflict. I hate it with a passion. So that meant that I would detour my route to like the uni or I just do a lot more training on my own. And so the training becomes lonely. But if you if you enjoy it, it's not that lonely. I guess it's not. It's less boring than you might think. Yeah, because it's not, it's not the same as just saying, Okay, I'm just going to go out for a cycle, like the cycle rides are more planned than that. So you can create routes for yourself where you're doing Hill sprints between that route, and in during those Hill sprints, you're doing a particular cadence, you're putting out a particular power output, and you always have to hit those power outputs. So in that sense, it's more like, think of it as kind of like a really good spin class, but you're outside enjoying the environment. Okay, and so in that sense, it's not it's not super boring. It's not that repetitive is quite repetitive. But it's not as repetitive as you might think. Oh, yeah, I mean, I did sometimes take Mario Mario, it's like this just I don't like this. It's not really for me, and I get that as well because it can it can just be quite
Ali Abdaal 9:46
yeah, like I tried. I've got a few friends from from uni who was super super into the whole cycling, travelling II type stuff they had they had the whole, like, run everything. And one time one of my friends took me out like her. I think it was a 15k cycle. And by the end of it like I couldn't feel my bum anymore. I was like, Why? Why is this fun? We stopped off at some, like you have to
Natacha Océane 10:07
find. If you find a bad saddle, that's game over. Maybe the saddle was wrong. Maybe the saddle maybe the cycling shorts, you need some padding. Did you have padding? No, I was just wearing my kind of I mean, it's game over straightaway. Yeah, like there's loads of small tips and tricks that you get learned that you get taught over the course of time where you need to put like chafing cream on loads of things.
Ali Abdaal 10:30
Okay. Yes.
Natacha Océane 10:31
It's a lot more pleasant.
Ali Abdaal 10:33
Got it. There. That was the stuff I didn't I didn't get into at all. They were just like this endless cycle. Like, when are we going to stop? It was like, Oh, we've got another 7k to go like, Oh my God.
Natacha Océane 10:41
Maybe they're not friends. They might have just been pulling your leg? Maybe? Yeah, thinking? Yeah, let's put him on this horrific saddle. Yeah, tell him to well, whatever usually was, he's
Ali Abdaal 10:49
never gonna want to do it again. So So in your third year, you had this kind of drama going on in the club, which meant that it was a kind of a less social activity. But you said that you enjoyed it anyway. So
Natacha Océane 11:00
I still enjoyed it, because I had the end goal of doing Ironman. So for me, and also, I like working in teams. But when it comes to sports, sometimes it hasn't brought out the best in me. So do you mean, in the sense that I remember playing Rounders when I was a kid, and just trying to do everyone's job and just screaming all over the place. And it's just and I think, and also very competitive. Okay. So if people aren't sharing that same level of enthusiasm, it annoys me. Okay, but I think I've kind of I've developed enough self awareness not to realise that. I'm, unlike that got it. So I'm a lot better at working in teams. But at the time, I wasn't really much of a team player. So solo sports tended to fare better with me. Because like, because if something like if I lost, that's only that's only my fault. And I can't blame anyone else other than myself. And I think that was a good place for me to be in at the time.
Ali Abdaal 12:01
Yeah. So very, very competitive. But he also don't like conflict. Yeah, I guess that can be a tricky combination. Sometimes.
Natacha Océane 12:08
By being I think I'm competitive. And then I just do things that it's just, I just kind of, I'm just kind of working on myself, like with the Ironman. I wasn't even really going in to do a race. I just wanted to complete it. And I was really shocked when I came second because I, I just wanted to complete it. That was really my goal. And yeah, I wasn't really going in to compete with anyone as such.
Ali Abdaal 12:37
Yeah. On that note, how do you feel generally about about goals, goals in relation to goals that are within your control versus goals that are potentially outside of your control, like, within your control is I'm going to finish the race to the best of my ability, outside of your control, to an extent is I want to hit a certain time or rank a certain position or compete with other people in a certain way. And often when it comes to kind of especially like YouTube, Instagram, influencing business, that kind of stuff. You know, I think people encourage us to set these outcome goals like oh, you know, let's aim to hit a certain KPI a certain subscriber count by a certain amount of time. Yeah. Which always felt to me as being a bit like, oh, but it's not within my control.
Natacha Océane 13:21
Yeah. Like it very, very slightly is in the sense that you might have like luck, or you can kind of get your content to being more viral, or more applicable to a wide stream audience so that it might have a better chance of going viral. Yeah, but in the sense, but in that sense, where it's something that's out of your control. I mean, it's out of your control. Like I think, over time, I don't really let that get to me, because I guess I don't get my fulfilment out of goals that can't be that are out of my control. As in if something happens, like it happens. That's great. But that wasn't out of any of my doing. Like, if I hit that KPI, I could have just been really lucky. Like, yeah, I worked hard, but like, sometimes you're just really lucky and just out of your control, and you can't be you can't be over the moon about something that was out of your control that went your way. Because that would just be I don't know, credit where credit's due like, yeah. 100 other things. Yeah. And so I guess when it comes to, I don't Yeah, when things are out of my control, I don't really, I don't really worry, so I don't let it affect me.
Ali Abdaal 14:36
Lots of us go through life with a bit of a love hate relationship with STEM subjects. In theory, the idea of learning how the world works in science or learning how to build websites with computer science is really awesome. But when you're plotting your way through formulas in a science class or trying to understand code, it can be a bit dry and boring. The way I like to learn more about this stuff in a fun and engaging way is with brilliant with kindly sponsoring this episode brilliant have a tonne of courses that teach maths, science and computer science with visual examples and interactive travel along the ways that you can learn by doing one of my favourite courses, and brilliant is actually the computer science series, especially the Introduction to Algorithms and the fundamentals of programming with Python, I was actually considering applying for computer science rather than medicine at university. And I ended up going down the medicine route, which I don't regret. But I never really understood computer science. And although I knew how to code, I didn't really understand the foundational algorithms and structures behind the field of computer science. So I really enjoyed checking out brilliant courses on that, and also the course on cryptocurrencies absolutely sick. And without that course, I really would not have understood how Bitcoin for example, works. Anyway, if you want to improve your math, science and computer science, then head over to brilliant org forward slash deep dive, and the first 200 people to sign up via that link will get 20% off the annual subscription to brilliant, so thank you very much brilliant for sponsoring this video. So I guess you got a lot more fulfilment out of the fact that you finished the Ironman than the fact that you came second in your, in your category. Okay, yeah. What was it like doing it for the first time, the Ironman,
Natacha Océane 15:54
so it was actually amazing. Really, it was really, it was really fun, because the day is organised really, really well. And you've got everyone in this, I was doing it in Barcelona, you've got everyone doing the same event. To be honest, I was a bit nervous because you get a lot of people that have spent like 1000s of pounds on their equipment. And sometimes it makes you feel a bit insecure. Because I was a student, I had absolutely no money, I could barely afford the race. So my bike was a real like, like a patchwork quilt of just people giving me a tire here, a wheel here, we've managed to find this carbon fibre frame on ebay for about 250 pounds. And me and my coach wired it all together. And really like it really was not a state of the art. I taught my helmet was a skateboard helmet, because that's the most aerodynamic thing. I could find Arrow, Arrow, Arrow aero helmets are so expensive. Okay, so yeah, everyone had really amazing kit. And that made me feel a little bit intimidated at first, but the whole day is run so well, like it's done really well, there's always everyone gets really excited. There's always a really big crowd as well. So it makes you they keep pushing it right to the end, I remember the marathon, which is the slowest marathon I've ever run, because I was just exhausted. That kind of 30 kilometre mark, there were still people out just cheering you on. And it makes you feel you get energy from that. And it really helps you. So that's something you don't get in training. And so I think it was it made all the training worth it. Nice. And there's like music going and it's just really well organised. So you just, it feels really nice. Okay.
Ali Abdaal 17:39
That's really interesting to hear. Because I would have thought doing an Ironman, it would be a case of oh, it's it's a lot of suffering while you're doing it. And then at the end, you're like, I'm really glad I did that. But it sounds like you had a nice time throughout.
Natacha Océane 17:51
Yeah, well, I think because I wasn't going in I almost went in pacing myself. I wasn't going into when I think if you're going into when and you're really going into race. It's savage. I mean, to do the Ironman in eight hours is It's nuts. The speed that going up the whole time is I can't fathom it. Like it's incredible. But yeah, I think if you're going in it just to complete it like I was, and you're well prepared, and you know what your nutrition is. And you know, you know that you've done all of the training that you can, then it's and you're pacing yourself, I really was pacing myself, like it's
Ali Abdaal 18:30
okay, so I was I was listening to David Goggins audio book can't hurt me the other day. And I was, and he talks a lot about how, you know, Iron Man's and ultra man's and all this stuff. And his whole thing is about how, you know, you, you realise the power of the human mind and unlocking another layer level of performance. And yeah, what was that feeling? Like? What's that feeling like for you, when you're sort of, you know, halfway through an Ironman, you know, you've got another half of it to go.
Natacha Océane 18:57
So I tend to think of things in stages. I did an ultra marathon last year, actually, for a video where I was running for is it 50k? I think it was 50k. And rather than thinking rather than breaking the breaking that ultramarathon down into 50 kilometres or more, I just, I created two loops for myself. And I just thought of it as two loops. I don't know why breaking it down into not many. Not that men. Also it like sections were like just two things really helped me get through it and think, oh, it's not so bad. With the Ironman. I just thought of it as one swim, one bike and a run. And so when I did when I finished the swim, I was like, Cool. I'm third way. When I did the bike, I was like, Cool. Okay, that's the bike done as when I'm, when I'm doing the bike. I'm also thinking, I'm not thinking about the marathon after I'm just thinking right Just thinking about getting off the bike. And then when you and then when you've done the when you're doing the marathon, I break it down into the laps that we were doing, which were 10 kilometre laps. And I just thought like one lap done. Two laps done three laps done four done.
Ali Abdaal 20:15
So what's so what's going through your mind when you? I mean, anytime I've tried to do any run of any kind, I get to that point where I'm like, You know what my Apple Watch is telling me I've done a kilometre already. I feel kind of hurting. I could just quit. And often I'm like, You know what, there's a there's a coffee van over there. I could get a nice mug latte. We have a nice walk home. And then and then I end up quitting. But the people who actually do running, presumably have that thought of I could just quit and then keep going. Yeah, so what do you tell yourself to keep going in those moments when your your mind and body are saying, Ah, you know, but you could just quit?
Natacha Océane 20:49
Do you know what? That thought never crosses my mind that I could just quit. Okay? It's really weird. Because even when I do, even when I'm training at the gym, quitting never feels like an option. It doesn't even cross my mind is I couldn't even quit if I wanted to. Oh, wow, I don't even know I don't buy I don't really know where that comes from. It's just that that thought never crosses my mind. But with the distances when you're running, I will say that the more you train for something, the shorter distances feel. So yes, a marathon feels like a long run. But if you're going for long runs all the time. And you're your cat, you're always doing a 20 kilometre run, you just think, Oh, I'm just running double that. Yeah. And distances feel a lot shorter in your mind. So, so that so that so there is like a mind training as well, that happens when you when you train for longer distances, where things just feel shorter in your mind?
Ali Abdaal 21:48
And does the sort of training and training to do Iron Man's and that kind of stuff? Do you find that the sort of mind benefits translate to other aspects of your life as well? Or is it quite like confined to that one arena of I think
Natacha Océane 22:01
it gives you a lot of mental resilience. Okay, so whenever. So in that same vein, when I'm saying like, I can't, like the thought of quitting just isn't an option. I think of that in every aspect of life. Okay, whether it's when it comes to work, or relationships or anything like it's just, I mean, it depends if it's a really bad
Ali Abdaal 22:26
PhD. But
Natacha Océane 22:29
yeah, oh, yeah. My PhD, I did quit. But yeah, I guess it just, it gives you a lot of strength, knowing that you've, you've done something, you've proved yourself that you can do something, that means that if you feel tired, or in a raw or whatever, you can get through it as well. I think that actually, one of the things that I found, I was more gave me more of that was when I was able to do a backflip, not because like some people always are able to do a backflip, and it's nothing, it's really just a personal thing for me. But I managed to do a backflip on my own without assistance. And I'm not going to do
Ali Abdaal 23:11
that's pretty cool. I'd love to be able to do that.
Natacha Océane 23:13
But that it took me two years to get. And it was so emotional for me. And I was like, You know what? I managed to do that. And so you just have to keep pushing through. And so I just apply that to other aspects of life if I want the reward at the end, which I didn't for my PhD. Yeah. And that's why I didn't that's why I quit.
Ali Abdaal 23:34
Oh, okay. So yeah, I was I was gonna ask you about that, because I was Stephen Bartlett talks about this in his his book as well, where he talks about kind of a quitting framework. And his model for this is, I think something like, you know, Will, Will this be hard work? And is the reward worth it? And if the reward is worth it, and it will be hard work, then it's worth doing? And if it's gonna be fun, then it's worth doing anyway. But if the answer if if it's not worth it, then there's no point in like, suffering through a little hard work, that you're not enjoying just for the sake of this robot that you actually don't want. Yeah, I agree. So I guess so. You're, I think you would have graduated undergrad at 21. done the Iron Man then. And then you decided to start a PhD? Was this trade off? Just did you have like a master's in the middle of straight after? Okay. Yeah. And when when did the YouTubing career start, like in this whole authoring
Natacha Océane 24:22
PhD? Okay. Yeah. I saw I do my PhD and there was nothing else going on. Okay. I was solely focused on that. And then I saw Have you ever heard of the Bamp Film Festival? Yes. Yeah, it's pretty famous. Yeah. I went to most people haven't.
Ali Abdaal 24:37
I mean, amongst like the videographer type community people. Oh, YouTube videos. I watched it. It's famous.
Natacha Océane 24:42
Yeah, I went to see it once. And that was maybe six months into my PhD. And I remember just looking at these amazing, amazing camera work, amazing stories being told. And I'm always really outdoorsy person, super outdoorsy, and it was just it was incredible. I sat there and I was like, do I actually enjoy what I'm doing? Because prior to that I, I had never had any self awareness. So prior to that I'd never ever questioned whether that was happy or not being honest. In my undergraduate, I wasn't really happy. Like, if you'd asked me straight up, how are you? Yep, I probably would have cried Oh, well, just just because that whole question just opens up so much like, how am I I don't know, I'm stressed. I'm freaking out. I'm nervous. Like, I'm, I'm not happy. And, and watching the bank Film Festival was one of those moments where I just sat. And I thought, I don't think I'm doing the right thing. I think I'm just doing a PhD because I'm at great uni. The reputation is really good. At the end, I'll get a doctorate is that the only reason I'm doing it? And I think like being self where you have to be completely honest with yourself in a non biassed way. In the moment, how are you feeling? And I am being honest with myself, that was the answer. I was purely doing it for the reputation for the doctor at the start of my name. Not because I was really enjoying it, like if I didn't really enjoy the work. In fact, it's funny because I talk about my PhD and I like the project. But I like doing an undergraduate better in the sense that I when you do PhD you become it's very much about optimising for a particular experiment. And you spent six months optimising for particular experiments. So you actually become an engineer of mass spectrometry, you don't you become an engineer like you know, the machine. So well. Yeah. But all that biochemistry that you learn in undergrad, just not important anymore, because you're just trying to optimise for this one experiment. And I didn't like that. I didn't like that I was forgetting the biochemistry that I loved. And that I was just becoming so specialised in one thing. And I, it took me like a while to process what I'd gone through during that bump Film Festival. And slowly slowly over the course of another six months, I was like, yeah, no, I'm really doing this for the wrong reason. When I was doing my PhD, I liked watching YouTube videos. I've always been into fitness. I but I felt like there was a lot of misinformation on in the fitness industry on YouTube. Because there was nothing that was science backed. Everything was anecdotal. And I had had, I had had I had developed like relationships with food or relationships with overexercising that I can attribute to social media, because at the time, I was really easily influenced, didn't really look at things critically, and just believed things that were said like if people said it in a nice way, and they looked really pretty, and things like that, and everything looked really nice, I would go along with it. And that meant that I ended up in a position where I wasn't, I wasn't really performing well, because I wasn't training properly. I wasn't eating properly. And and my PhD. I think what they didn't do with my undergrad is we weren't taught to critically analyse papers. But that's what we did really well, at UCL is a lot of it was really well analysing papers, look at the methodology, is it flawed? How is this study carried out? Where is this study published, all of these things make a huge difference. And I realised at that point, like there's a real gap here. There's a gap in on YouTube, where there's scientifically based fitness content that is delivered in a really friendly, accessible way. And that's kind of where I started. So once I finished my PhD, then I sorry, my MPhil Yeah, I was tutoring and starting to think about making YouTube videos. Okay.
Ali Abdaal 29:05
So when you had that moment of kind of the that period of realisation where maybe I'm doing this for the wrong reasons, that feels like it will be quite quite a scary thing, because you've been working for this thing and following this sort of ladder. And then you're like, oh, maybe maybe I've been climbing over the wrong ladder. And if, if you're a sort of side hustle tutoring, what was going through your mind in terms of like, what you were going to do with your career, what you're gonna do with your life? Like, were you thinking about those things before you decided to quit?
Natacha Océane 29:33
To be honest, I don't think I it's a weird thing to look back on because I don't think I was fully present in that moment. There was a lot of reflection, there was a lot of thinking about the future and there wasn't much thinking about the actual present. I wasn't I only really developed self awareness like a couple of years later. So in that moment, I think I was just so flustered, that I didn't really, all I knew was that it felt wrong. Okay. And so in terms of thinking, Oh, is this going to harm my career or whatever? I didn't worry so much about it. Okay. I think because I am I still think this like, if I really want to go and do science again,
Ali Abdaal 30:21
can I swear? By all means? Yeah, fuck it,
Natacha Océane 30:24
like I just go and sign myself up in like to an undergraduate and then go through the whole process again if I have to, if I want to, if that is really what, in even 10 years time I decide that actually I made the complete wrong thing. Okay, I'll just go off and do that again. Like it always felt like I wasn't closing a door in that sense. And so yeah, I guess I was in such a, I was really down. I think back then, like it would have been depression, although I hadn't really wasn't really seeing anyone for it. But I struggled to wake up, I always felt tired. I had no drive to do anything, even things I enjoyed. I just was the point. And so I think because that feeling was so strong. I just, I was just like, notice not right.
Ali Abdaal 31:13
Interesting. Because, like, I often speak to people who are in the middle of doing something that they feel like maybe this was a bad idea. A lot of the time the people I speak to are doctors in particular who are doing practice medicine and feel like maybe I made the wrong toy choice. 10 years ago, when I decided to go into medicine.
Natacha Océane 31:33
It's a really hard one. I don't think the education system here helps us much because you have to start specialising when you're 14,
Ali Abdaal 31:42
yeah, it's hard to you know, suddenly you have to start gearing, your work experience, volunteering, etc. Because you've decided I want to be a doctor. Yeah, you're
Natacha Océane 31:47
a levels, all of that starts to just get funnelled down as early as the age of 14, when you have no idea. And I think it like doesn't equip you that well for like a world that you need multiple skills, like it's it serves, I think I've done better not being specialised than being specialised.
Ali Abdaal 32:10
Yeah, cuz I guess within biochemistry, you could have gone full on into any of those, like sub specialties become a pro mass spectrometer forever, that kind of thing.
Natacha Océane 32:17
That's what I thought I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go into, I'm gonna go into doing biochemistry, then I'll get my PhD and I'll get a postdoc, then I'll work my way to becoming a professor. Okay. That was that was like my career. And then but I think when I saw that BAM Film Festival, it reignite, because I've a little bit like you said, you were really creative. You did graphic design, right? My thing was textiles. And I, I always, I just, I love it. Like, I love the art work of it. I'm not so much like, not, it's not really like the high street stuff that I like, it's really like the high end architectural stuff, sorry, I've scraped to work again, is really the high end architectural stuff, where there's just so much intricacy in it, that is in so much manipulation of a particular fabric, like that's the stuff that I really enjoy. And and so when I saw the bank Film Festival, I was like, Well, I want to do something that's more creative. And I love fitness. And I and I, since having done like, my MPhil, I can, I'm now reading all of this scientific evidence on training and nutrition that I feel like I've never heard of on social media. That's not the message. What I'm reading here from newspapers is not what's coming out to all of us in like magazines, on the media, etc. And I just, I think I knew that I wanted to be a part of that so much, that it didn't feel like so much of a leap of faith. I also don't really have, I don't really care so much about what other people think either. I really, I really don't. So, my professors were like, a bit embarrassed that I was leaving, because it's not a thing that you do. You don't quit a PhD. Yeah, most people that get a start a PhD, they just stick out. And I think the uni also kind of looked down on you a little bit, but I just don't care. I was just I'm going to do it.
Ali Abdaal 34:14
So you started started the YouTube channel. What was like what happened next? What were the early days like
Natacha Océane 34:20
the early days were beyond cringe. Oh, right. Okay. I think the first ever video I made which I've taken down I don't even know where it is. I wish I still had is this Halloween fitness video. Don't ask me why I did it. I just it was a Halloween like skit fitness video. It was horrendous. But I remember just going to pure gym at like midnight, filming it on a fire. And then that was my first ever video. And then other videos. I don't know why that was my first video. I think I was just thinking yeah, let's just do something like a little bit fun. And then then it started being more like informational videos. But I was I was really I really struggled with speaking in front of the camera, I was really camera shy, even, I'd say even like a year and a half in is when I started getting comments from people saying, Oh, it feels like your personality is coming through. Because the first year and a half it I felt so much more comfortable filming things, and being behind camera. So a lot even like my way in a days would be three minutes long. No talking just video edited food being put together. And like just and that's it. And so it really took me a really long time to warm up to speaking in front of camera. So a lot of the early early days. Yeah, I just, it's hard to watch. It's really hard to watch. I think you'll find them anymore.
Ali Abdaal 35:57
So the the speaking to camera thing. You know, these days, I have have a lot of contact with beginner YouTubers who wanting wanting to get started wanting to stay consistent with it. And one of the prime things that holds people back is a I'm worried what my friends and family and parents will think and be I don't know if I can I'm not confident on camera. Yeah. So you decided to start a YouTube channel, despite knowing that you weren't that confident on camera?
Natacha Océane 36:22
Yeah, I think because the thing is, I feel like I really had something to make like I there was there's really is there was really a gap for scientifically based content, delivered in a really fun way, a really accessible way. And I just felt like that wasn't being met. But it meant that I really had to go through that initial uncomfort like feeling uncomfortable about it to get to that stage. Okay. And yeah, I mean, even though it was kind of like unpleasant and awkward, and it, I couldn't have anyone else in the room whilst I talked to a camera, it just because I knew I wasn't being myself, I knew that there was a part of me that I just, I couldn't get it out in front of camera. And, but because the feeling of having to get that scientific content out there to help as many people as possible so that they didn't fall into the same traps that I did was more important to me than that initial feeling of being uncomfortable. And that's why I kept going for it and practice makes perfect, right? Yeah. Like I personally hate public speaking. I hate it makes me feel so nervous. But I'm still gonna do it. Because I'm not going to die. I might die of cringe. Like looking back, I'll be like, Oh, that was really badly delivered, or you really don't sound eloquent, or whatever it is, but I'm not going to die. Like it's not the worst is gonna happen. It's just Yeah. And people say stuff. They say stuff like, I've spent. I mean, I don't know, if you have siblings, I have a younger brother, like you just, you just take the piss out of each other all the time. And it is what it is. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 37:59
How was the growth in the early days? Like, can you remember how many videos it took you to hit 1000 subscribers or kind of those?
Natacha Océane 38:05
I think the growth was really slow. I mean, the early early videos that because they were so bad. Like I I'm not like I'm not surprised. Like they they were just really bad videos like how to watch. Yeah, there was some information that like someone else has delivered that information better. And so I really can't remember, I think I started in 2000 I think I started in 2016. And I think by the end of 2016 I don't know when I started in 2016. But into it by the end of 2016. And I did one video, which was kind of like a sometimes you do these videos that are kind of you don't necessarily want to do them, but they're good to do because it gets your channel out there. And that at the time was cheat day challenges. Okay, so I did a cheat day challenge that got I think a million views or something. And that grew me my first 10k And so and then at the start of 2000 but I don't know how many videos I posted until then. I think maybe I had maybe 15 videos I'm not sure something like that. So not very many it was still like a really early channel Yeah, that grew me 10k And then and then I I don't fully remember things really did happen like stepwise, though, like I never had like a one video that just everything took off from there. It just kind of it really happened quite gradually. Okay, which I actually appreciate because I think sometimes it's nice to grow with your audience as well and get to know them. One of the things that I always do with my YouTube videos I try and reply to as many comments as I can as possible is really important for me to feel close to my audience. And I think that also gives me the confidence to, to speak to them in a way that I would with my, to any friend that I have. But I really do treat them like friends, because many of the, like, comments that I get are still from people that I've seen from three years ago, that have kind of stuck with me the whole time. And so I think getting to know your, your audience, as you grow, is really important. It made me feel more confident. And it made me feel because I think if I if it just happened all in one go. That's kind of like a order not to say
Ali Abdaal 40:36
doesn't have between you and the audience then. Yeah, like, I go viral overnight. It's like, what do you do now?
Natacha Océane 40:41
Yeah, and I for that, I'm kind of grateful, because I think I would have struggled the other way. Yeah. Okay. Even though as a YouTube, you always like, Let's not break good. And yeah,
Ali Abdaal 40:55
so in the, in the sort of, like, first first 15 or so videos, where you're not getting that much traction, you're putting the videos out, it feels really hard. You're like, oh, this is terrible, that that that kind of thing? What was it that kept you going and continuing to make the videos, even though like video number one wasn't a viral hit.
Natacha Océane 41:13
I think, really, like it's what I what I said before, just
Ali Abdaal 41:17
mission driven thing of evidence based fitness stuff, I just
Natacha Océane 41:20
want to help as many people as possible. I want to help, I want to empower as many people as possible to understand the science and be able to use that how they want in their training. So yeah, I'll give I give like recipe ideas. But or, but I don't really give cookie cutter things. It's more about allowing people to understand the fundamentals of training, training smart, eating properly. And then whatever your diet, however you like to train, you can use those principles. And and you have the power because you know that it's science scientifically backed. And that, because I think I had got into a position where I was so confused about training, and nutrition, I really didn't want anyone else to feel that way. And so I felt like it was like my duty, I was like, This is my calling in life, like I really need to, let's get to the bottom of this. Like, let's really try and help as many people as possible. And that's why sometimes I did videos that I like I didn't necessarily didn't always particularly want to do, because I knew that that would give me the tools to reach more of the audience. Like sometimes my titles will say, like, it will talk about fat loss in a certain way. Because I know that at the time, where I was struggling where I didn't have a clue about what was going on with like fitness or nutrition, I would have clicked on that title, because someone else will do it. And they'll deliver it with poor information. And so, yes, there's always like a compromise between that marketing as well.
Ali Abdaal 42:57
Okay, so it sounds like you're you had a clear kind of strong why behind the thing that you were doing and that let you be like alright, yeah, this is just what I'm gonna do. Yeah, cuz I have this message that wants to come out. Yeah, that's interesting. Um, when did How was it for you? For me, my why behind it was a bit more. It was a bit less altruistic. It was, it doesn't have to be though. Yes, I was running a business that that helped people get into med school by teaching courses for the GMAT, and UKCAT and those exams and things. And I thought, oh, there's no good free information about the stuff on the internet. Great. Let me make YouTube videos teaching people how to do this exam stuff in the hope that maybe if I don't know, 100 people watch this video, one or two of them will think Oh, this guy knows what he's talking about. Let me sign up to his course. So it was started off as a marketing driver for for the courses. But then very quickly, it was like a blip. And there were medical applicants in the comments being like, Oh, can you do a video about interviews? Yeah, absolutely. Sure. Let's get all my friends on camera is giving giving interview tips, stick it on YouTube, that attraction marketing video, my personal statements. Sure. You know that and it sort of grew in that way. But it was had in the back of my mind that I don't just want to do this for fun. I want to treat this properly, like a business. And so when I started it was a case of, I'm going to like without fail one video every week for the next like three years and see what happens. And I kind of knew that my first 100 videos were gonna be crap because I knew nothing about I was bad a camera was bad video editing, didn't know anything about anything. But I knew that if I just did enough of it, then eventually I'd get to the point where the videos might even be decent.
Natacha Océane 44:29
Did you save the good ideas for later on once you get that? Oh,
Ali Abdaal 44:32
yeah, I had one good idea that I knew was gonna be a banger. It was a video about evidence based study tips. Because this was something no one ever teaches us. I've done a lot of research into that in my third year when I did a BSc in psychology. So I was like, I've got a banger presentation on how to study for exams, the with all the evidence, I just need to turn that into a video. But that needs to be like my 100th video rather than my first video because I'm just not good enough at the video thing to do justice to this thing. What about you do we are we holding back banger ideas
Natacha Océane 45:00
there are times now where I hold something back. Because I know that I know that that almost want to say like, the circumstances will come in, right where like there's, we've got like the right equipment to film this or we have like the funds to be able to hire like a specific, like, not event venue. Like even the Ironman video I've we've wanted to do that for a long time. But I wanted to do it in the right circumstances. So be able to have a drone be able to do drone footage, be able to hire the Olympic pool, all of these things like the budget is more for video like that, then than a regular video. So some videos I'll wait just a bit. But a lot of the videos I if I making something I make it so that it's as timeless as can be. So especially with the science, the science explained videos, those i will i It's not I don't feel like I've had to wait, but I will spend a long time making it. Because I know that I only have one shot like I'm not going to make that video again. It's not some some videos, you just can't keep milking like, and I also from as a as a creative. I don't like repeating myself, I don't like having to always do the same thing over and over and over again. Like I like to do it. Do it really, really well to the best of my abilities. And then cool. I've done that. I've done that topic. We can leave that little
Ali Abdaal 46:39
Yeah, yeah. So within within that first year is maybe around 2016 time you went to 10k Subs off the back of this cheat day video. Yeah. When did YouTube start becoming commercially viable for you?
Natacha Océane 46:51
Oh, it was. So I think I hit I think that was like July 2017. I think I think I was about like 150 case, okay, where I was like, Okay, now I feel like I can spend a really good amount of time just focusing on YouTube. And I can say goodbye to my tutors, my tutees. And it worked quite well as well, because it was like the end
Ali Abdaal 47:11
of the year. So you don't have to find new people.
Natacha Océane 47:12
Yeah, so just leave.
Ali Abdaal 47:16
Just for example. Yeah. And we doing we're doing everything yourself at the time, or did you have an editor? Like, what was the sort of?
Natacha Océane 47:23
No, I was doing everything myself. I think Mario helped me a little bit as well. But mainly everything myself.
Ali Abdaal 47:30
Okay. And did you know how to edit videos and do the camera stuff before you started? Or on the job
Natacha Océane 47:35
just taught myself? Yeah, I feel like one of the thing I'm good at is I'm really quick at learning. So I just I just taught myself and I wanted it so bad, right? So you just you just teach yourself, whatever you need to teach yourself.
Ali Abdaal 47:49
Yeah, I find that. You know, a lot of the editing
Natacha Océane 47:52
wasn't like good at the start.
Ali Abdaal 47:57
Time. Yeah,
Natacha Océane 47:58
you think it's amazing. When you're in the early days was like
Ali Abdaal 48:03
a transition? Yeah.
Natacha Océane 48:06
Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't amazing. Yeah. I
Ali Abdaal 48:08
think like, generally, when I speak to older folk, they're always surprised that oh, you know, how can you just do this without a background in that or without a formal qualification, the thing? Whereas I think, kind of our generation and younger just tends to assume you can just teach yourself anything on the internet. And so who cares if you've never done video editing, or never known how to use a camera? There's YouTube tutorials for everything out there.
Natacha Océane 48:32
If you go into that mind, yeah, you're right. Some sometimes I speak to, like people's parents or like older people, and they're like, oh, wow, what's your qualification? I don't have. I just kind of just do Yeah. And yeah, like, you might not be the most technically advanced or whatever. But especially when it comes to being creative. I think, even with graphic design, I, I ended up teaching myself quite a bit of graphic design last year. And I think, luckily, I have quite a good eye for design.
Ali Abdaal 49:07
Your thumbnails are super aesthetic, like all this happening. And it's like that this would take a lot of effort together.
Natacha Océane 49:12
Yeah, they do take a while to put together. And but I think if you have an eye for something, it really helps. And then the technical stuff like comes later I found that with photography as well, because I really love photography. I like taking my archive more like architectural like neutral images. But I think yeah, if you and I think you just don't
Ali Abdaal 49:36
set limits for yourself. Yeah, that goes back to the thing about Iron Man as well. Yeah, like if you just think you
Natacha Océane 49:40
can do it, just keep going for it and just keep learning and we'll try and learn from the best and how do
Ali Abdaal 49:47
you think about the crew, your sort of personal brand these days in terms of kind of mid to long term? Like, do you and so for me, for example, I'm always asking myself You know, five years from now, 10 years from now, what am I going to be doing? And I often think, am I gonna? Am I? Am I still gonna be making YouTube videos in my 40s? And 50s? That feels feels a bit weird. And part of me is like hell yeah. Not possibly. It's like, Yeah, but he's, he's gonna want one of us into a 50 year old making YouTube video. So how do you think about your the longevity of your personal brand?
Natacha Océane 50:20
That's a really good question. I actually don't know if I've really thought about it too much. I think I'm still at a position where I have lots of content I want to make, so I don't feel like I'm thinking or kind of scraping the barrel here. Like, I don't I net? If I get to that stage, I think that might be a place where I go, Okay, let's take a step back. Like, am I? Because I, I find that just kind of, I would find that very unfulfilling, like kind of sad, where it's just like, oh, okay, I really I have no more idea, like,
Ali Abdaal 50:55
what in a day version? 25.
Natacha Océane 50:57
Yeah. But I think I mean, especially with your content as well, there's longevity in the content that you make, in the sense that, that there's a depth to your content. So there's more longevity in it. And I think a little bit the same with me, I think, in the sense that for me, I don't think people tune in to just watch me do a whole lot. And what am I trying to say? I guess people aren't just watching me, for me and like the current life that I'm living, or I think there's more depth to some of the content that I'm making, which has longer longevity. Which is why I don't over sexualize myself as well, because I think that the more I do it, the more I make it about, like physical appearances or things like that, the less longevity, because it's about how you make someone feel and I want people to feel really good. And I think a feeling lasts longer with you than just a like an admiration. Yeah, you're not deeply thinking about it. I think that's the same for you. Yeah,
Ali Abdaal 52:02
I mean, as a dude. I'm thinking like, if I had six pack abs, I could do the backflip, slow motion, then. Do you ever get that? How? Because I guess kind of a female fitness influencer, there's like a certain aesthetic that does well on Instagram. Do you feel the temptation of like going down the sexualizing route to get more views? Effectively?
Natacha Océane 52:31
That's a really good question. I feel like there were there are times where I look at something and I'm like, did that that really did just do well, she has a really big amazing also, like, wherever it is, I don't feel tempted by it. Sometimes I think oh, it would have kind of been easier. If we do more, like slightly more sex like more skin, it's just showing more skin, like let's show this angle instead. But in the long, I think the thing about me is I always play the long game. Yeah, and that's a very short term game to play, if you're going to play it that way is very short term, because you're providing someone with like eye candy. And that only lasts for so long. So I have always made it a real effort to not go down that route, because it's just not a long term play. And I do really want to be in it for the long term.
Ali Abdaal 53:25
Um, so you've got like stupidly large amounts of followers on both YouTube and Instagram. I imagine you get people who kind of look up to you as a as a role model creator, even outside the fitness space. So what what advice would you give to maybe someone who is just maybe graduating from uni, not really sure what they want to do, like the idea of becoming a creator, maybe on the side of their full time job or whatever? And wants to try and emulate your success? For example, what what what advice would you give,
Natacha Océane 53:54
being passionate about something really helps. Because just creating something, for the sake of creating, I personally find quite difficult if there's not like a purpose for creating something. So going, having something that they feel really passionate about what come through in their content as well, in terms of like, just going for it, like, try not to worry about what other people think, like it just it holds you back. And then you're only holding yourself back. So if you really want to go if you really want to be a creator, then just start making something and don't worry about the first 10 100 videos being shipped because they will ship their ship for everyone. Unless you're an amazing film student, which they've already done their 100 videos yeah, but like at uni because the likely the thing is like these your early videos, they don't really get seen by anyone. But you just need to have them out there so that you knowing yourself that you've gone through and it hasn't just been something that you've spoken about. spoken about doing like you've actually gone and done it. So seeing that project through and also giving it time, I think it's really, I think it doesn't help when you hear stories like Charlie Amelio, getting to 5 million in like five days, like those stories don't help, because that's really such an outlier. The truth is that these things take a really long time, and you have to be prepared for it to take a long time. And it's okay, if it takes a long time, like whether or not you end up in YouTube's algorithm is up to you to pluck is not really something you can control. Like, yeah, you can make videos that you think will appeal to a large audience. But at the end of the day, like if it doesn't, and then it doesn't like there's you've, if you've done your best, and you've really gone for it, then that's really all you could have asked for. You can't really blame yourself, don't be too hard on yourself. And especially don't be too hard on yourself when you're trying to be a creator. Because setting up an environment for yourself, where you can be creative is a really important thing. I find that I can't be creative. If I'm in the wrong environment. It just, it doesn't flow. Like some people really good. They just as soon as they're on camera, they just switch it on. And you might be one of those people I'm personally not like I'm, I'm quite emotional in the sense that if I'm in the mood for filming, I'm really in the mood for filming and things. I don't even have to think about it. I'm just like, I know what shot that's going to be. Yeah, this looks amazing. Yeah, I'm really happy with this, like things just flow. So if you're creative in that respect, like be self aware, I think self awareness is is key for everything. It helps me so much like in across life, not just making YouTube but just being self aware. Just
Ali Abdaal 56:46
what do you mean by software? Because you said earlier that you weren't self aware while you were an undergrad. And it was only after a few years that you suddenly became self aware? What was that process like?
Natacha Océane 56:58
So self awareness is the ability to look at yourself, and how you're behaving right in that moment in a completely impartial state. So and that's a really hard thing to do. Like, if you're feeling angry. Imagine yourself in third person looking at yourself and being like, you're being angry, like you're a dick or like you're you're behaving like a dick. Like when you're in that moment and you're frustrated, and you're angry, and you're that emotional, it's hard to think, Okay, I'm being really angry, why am I angry? Or what can I do about it? That I think is that I think is what self awareness is. I think for me, it started off with self reflection, where I would behave in a certain way. And then I look back and be like, oh, yeah, I kind of behaved really badly, or like, or however like to emotion me or, and it's, I think the process of being self aware is to take that emotion out and be really honest with yourself and not worry about is that right? It? Should I have behaved that way. Like, it's part of understanding your personality. And then once you can understand your personality you can you can find solutions for yourself and set things up for yourself that help you in your life. Yeah, literally across all of your life. Like I think the first time I ever developed self awareness was I was seeing a life coach. And He specialises in neuro linguistic processing. And I was frustrated. I was frustrated because I was always arguing with my mom. And we were always, always, always fighting always about the smallest things. And I and I said this to him, and he was like, Okay, let's, let's practice and let's do some self awareness. I was like, What do you mean is harmful isn't my vote is awful. And he was like, and so we started to kind of like work through that. And I started to realise how I was feeling in the moment and what I could do about it. And it's really about taking control of how you feel in that moment, and what you can do about it impartially, and I think it makes you feel, I think over time, it's made me a lot better at being a creator as well. And a lot better at balancing life. And feeling aware of being self aware of how I'm feeling in the moment. So talking about balance. Like I don't think I've I don't think that balance is something that I practice every single day. I practice it every day, but I don't have balance every day in the sense that I don't have like I don't get my workout in. I don't get my like rest time and I don't get my every day it doesn't work that way. It's kind of kind of snakes around. And you go through moments of imbalance and moments of like balance and then in the in the middle. You're sorry, you've got you got three minutes of imbalance you go A few moments of like, on both extremities, and in the middle, you find balance, okay? And that can be over like the course of a month or a year. Like in the last six months, when I wasn't posting YouTube videos, I was working, and disgusting amount, it was disgusting. And I wasn't getting enough sleep. And I wasn't working out how I usually work out. And I wasn't doing all these things. And I was self aware, because I knew that that was an unsustainable way to work. And so what can I do about it? I knew that I had to work in that way. But it wasn't something that was sustainable. And so I need to find a solution to start to bring that back in. And so I knew that I had to find a date at which I needed to start slowing things down. I booked myself a holiday. And then I started getting back to moments where I felt like more imbalanced catch up on sleep. It's not training, finding more of a routine. But I think it's being aware in that moment how you feel, being really honest with yourself completely, impartially. As if you're just a third person you didn't even know that person looking in on the situation and thinking right, how are you behaving? How are you acting? How do you feel? Why do you feel that way? What can you do about it is different from self reflection? Yeah, it has to be in that moment. In that moment. That's a really hard part.
Ali Abdaal 1:01:18
Okay. And I guess in that moment, you sort of take your own feelings seriously. And seriously, ask yourself, Okay, what? What has happened to kind of make me feel this way?
Natacha Océane 1:01:29
Exactly. So it's not about striking that emotion out or you have to feel it. But be aware that you're feeling it and thinking and think about the environment that surrounds you, and thinking, Okay, why do I feel this way? What can I do about it? And kind of really taking control? Because I think before, there were a lot of things where I was like, Oh, why? Why is this happening to me, blah, blah. And in most of those situations, the cause was always me. And it's just about being really honest. I'm not feeling like embarrassed, like some things. It's hard to be honest, you know, when you're answering like a personality test, and so I wouldn't do that. But secretly you do. And it's okay, if you don't think it's a good thing, you just have to be really honest with yourself. The only way you get to like the root of it, do you spend much time on social media? Yes, large amounts. but I choose not to, oh, okay, it doesn't make me feel good. Like, and I'm self aware to know that it doesn't make me feel good. So because it doesn't make me feel good, I just, all I do is I just create the content that I want to create. And also, I tend to find that seeing too many things, especially in a similar field, starts to cloud my judgement, where I was, like, I do well, on my own, like, I've found my feet like, I know what I want to create, I don't necessarily need external cues as to what I want to make. And I think that's a danger, especially with fitness, where people are looking too much of what other people were doing, and they all start to become one and you start to lose app as a follower, you start to think, well, everyone's just kind of the same, like you followed a person for a reason. If everyone feels the same, you've ruined it for everyone. So that's why I don't spend so much time on social media, or anything like that, because I just, I don't, it doesn't make me feel good. And it doesn't help me and my content, but then I'm trying make content that does make people feel good. So I'm always trying to make content as like a, like an anti content, like the content that I cuz a lot of the content just doesn't make me feel good. So I'm thinking, what is it about that content doesn't make me feel good. And I might get it wrong sometimes. But I always try and make content that would make someone feel you know, some people just have that vibe, where you look at their page, or you look at their content, and you're like, oh, yeah, it's like a breath of nice. Yeah, this is really nice. Some people really have that. And so I tend to stick to those people. And then I yeah, I don't spend so much time on it. How?
Ali Abdaal 1:04:05
How do you come up with ideas for your own stuff? My Instagram, for your own stuff? Oh, my own stuff like YouTube? Because once you been doing it for four or five years, you said that you've you've got loads of ideas, like how do you come up with them? How do you save them? Like, what's your process for that?
Natacha Océane 1:04:19
Sometimes it's sometimes some videos are more like they're situational. So it's things that have happened in my life that I think, Okay, this can be quite helpful. It's something that I've never thought about. Speaking about my back injury was something that I would never, I never thought I'd speak about, because I've never had a back injury. And I hadn't really had an injury that is impacted me so much in my training. So that's that I kind of draw inspiration from events that have happened. And I am also sometimes with content also, I like to keep up to date with the science. So if there's like a paper that I'm particularly like, interested in or I see something that they've mentioned, that's unusual, I'll have a look at it. With nutrition, there's so many things you can talk about, I think the thing that I try and do is I try not to put myself in a box. So as much as, as much as I am in kind of the fitness space, I can also dig into wellness, I can also dig into, like, the broader, like, how do you integrate health and fitness into a lifestyle or like a more productive lifestyle, there's, I am also like, actually creating just being creative. Like, I guess I don't like to put myself in just like a fitness box. And that's all I do. And that's all I specialise in. Because as a creator, I think that makes you think that narrows you down. Whereas, rather than narrowing stuff down, it's good to keep your, your eyes open to what's going on around you. And so and so I will say like looking at things with the fitness industry from a business perspective. And I like I have lots of different interests from different fields that I try and draw into my own content. Okay.
Ali Abdaal 1:06:17
So that I think there's a, there's a balancing act, there were a lot of the traditional advice on how to grow on YouTube, I would say that you want to find your niche, and you want to stick to your niche and stick to your lane and niche down to blow up. And yet, at the same time when you have like a sort of a personal YouTube channel like you and I do, where we have all these different interests, and we're going to talk about them, do you? Do you ever feel that tension that like, well, I maybe want to talk about this thing, but I'm sort of in the fitness, health wellness space? And I'm maybe not allowed to talk about that thing? Do you worry about that at
Natacha Océane 1:06:49
all? Yes, sometimes like, Yeah, I do get that. I do feel like sometimes, like there'll be a vlog that I want to make that I'll have to work in a particular way or like market in a particular way, so that people don't feel like it's too much of a change from the other content that I make. But on the whole, I don't think I've reached that point too much. Yeah, I still feel like I have a really solid amount of content that I want to make. And there's a lot of collaborations that I want to do as well. And that helps as well bring in, like widen the space as well. I didn't I did that help?
Ali Abdaal 1:07:28
No. Yeah, no, that makes sense. I was gonna ask, so you said that when you're going through your undergrad, if someone had asked you, how are you, you would have kind of burst into tears? Because like, that's a big question. Yeah. And if any said that you're not me one particular happy back then. Yeah. Do you? Do you think you're you're happy now?
Natacha Océane 1:07:45
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm really happy now. I think I think before I like I was saying I had no self awareness. So that meant that I would continually have four hours of sleep, and not do anything about it. Because I just in the moment didn't, wasn't being honest with myself. Like, are you tired? 100%? Yeah. But I didn't ever take a step back and think, right, this is how you sort the problem are all I kept doing, I just kept doing the same thing, just on repeat. So being able to develop self awareness for anyone I think is like just is so helpful. It helps you in realising like who you are, what environment works best for you. I'm more of an introvert as well. So surrounding myself by lots of people doesn't help me. I like sometimes just having real alone time or just being around people who just don't draw lots of energy out of me. And I think being self aware, you can be honest with yourself and manage your life so that things work better for you.
Ali Abdaal 1:08:50
What are the bits of your life where when you don't have them? You feel like okay, I'm a bit off balance. I'm, I guess what I'm trying to get at is do you find that you're happier? When when when you train during the day? Do you find that you're happier when you I don't know, get I was asleep? Like, have you figured out what those things are for yourself? Yes. Are you more contented? Happy and stuff?
Natacha Océane 1:09:11
Yeah. So I'm just naturally quite an active person. I like being active. I don't necessarily have to be in the gym, but I like being active. I also like being outdoors. And yeah, I function so much better if I sleep better. So yeah, those things. Yeah, those basic things. Like, I think that's why that's why I really liked your office. It's why I like the place that I chose to live in because it's got lots of light and I don't feel like I feel like I can see the outside and it makes it might not make a big difference for other people. But for me, it really makes a difference. Just to feel like I can just see the outdoors. Yeah, I noticed myself I kind of struggled during COVID because that whole restriction of like being able to go outside and like going out and doing things that I know helped me I couldn't do. So. That's why I like I did struggle during COVID. But yeah, I think as long as you just keep working on that self awareness, it really helped.
Ali Abdaal 1:10:15
So I've got a few questions downward, which I'm more like, sort of rapid fire in the sense that the questions are rapid, but the answers don't necessarily have to be. So if we were down to just sort of go in random directions. Okay. So, what advice would you give to your younger self?
Natacha Océane 1:10:33
start practising self awareness straightaway?
Ali Abdaal 1:10:38
Amazing. Okay, who's had the biggest influence in your career?
Natacha Océane 1:10:41
Mario? Okay. So, um, so he has any. He's one of those people that is emotionally intelligent, and just intelligent, like just baseline. He has always had really good self awareness. So he's really been able to, like, assess situation. But just more than that, like he's taught me so much about business about managing myself managing my life, he is my manager. How to work effectively, productively? How to manage relationships? How to, yeah, Jesse's? Yeah. Mario, for sure. Always
Ali Abdaal 1:11:28
great. What's one tip for someone who's looking for success?
Natacha Océane 1:11:32
Be prepared to work really hard. And you have to make sacrifices in order to get there? Like, it's not. I don't think success comes without sacrifice. Oh, interesting. Would you agree? No, that's
Ali Abdaal 1:11:47
a nice, quote, success doesn't come without sacrifice? Um, I don't know. So there's a big? Well, there's a sort of movement these days, sort of the anti hard work movement. Okay. And I think, I think like, it's like,
Natacha Océane 1:12:02
to be successful. Yeah. Is it an anti hard worker to have a nice life? Or is it an anti hard work to be successful?
Ali Abdaal 1:12:11
I think it's an anti hard work to have a nice life rather than to be successful with weather, weather, weather, weather, nuances, but I guess kind of back in the day, kind of, I'm thinking Gary Vaynerchuk kind of vibes of like, you got to hustle, you got to work pretty hard. It's so that you can build a business etc. And especially a kind of post pandemic. It seems like the idea of hard work and hustling and productivity in, in some spheres is getting a bit of a bad rap that, hey, we shouldn't be promoting hard work, we should be promoting healthy living and all that kind of stuff. And, and the way I always think of it, it's like, well, it kind of depends on what your goal is, like, if you want to win gold at the Olympics, you know, you're gonna get there without like, sacrificing a lot of things along the way. But if you want like a pretty chilled out nice balanced life, then by all means, go for it. I think it's important for for people, and this is certainly what I'm trying to do is figure out like, what do I actually want here? What am I optimising for?
Natacha Océane 1:13:05
I think I've gone through that same phase as well, where it there was a point where I actually had not an argument, but just like, speaking about it with my cousin who I'm really close to, and she was like, I feel like I, I never see you. And that's, and I think at that point, I was like, Oh, shit, like, I've sacrificed so much that the people that I love, like, I just don't see, like, I don't have time for I'm not making time for them. So there is there is that I think, maybe instead of like, I think also you have to work smart. So one of the things that I used to do when I was young guys, I would work really hard, but it was so fucking inefficient. Like, I don't know what I was spending my time doing. It just was not efficient. So I think being really smart with how you work and spending time doing the right things. And especially with fitness, like there's a seasonality to it. I'm not going to make a tonne of fitness videos around Christmas time. Waste of time. What complete waste of time, January, okay, March, okay. But like around Christmas time, like I'm not I'm just not going to stress myself out with stuff that people just aren't interested. People want to enjoy Christmas. I want to enjoy Christmas like it's just not the right time to be putting all of your effort into doing something when it's just not going to give you that much return. So I think working smart is a smart way
Ali Abdaal 1:14:37
to go. What is the first and last hour of your day look like first hour
Natacha Océane 1:14:41
of my day looks like just first hour is emails. I just keep checking my emails. Which kind of isn't an amazing thing to do. Right? This is like very present. It's not an amazing thing to do to just wake up and look at your phone but I am guilty of And last hour of the day I'm just a potter I just Potter around just check the plants take ages that ages brushing my teeth just doing things that it's not really anything. That's my last hour
Ali Abdaal 1:15:18
fair play. That seems very counter to the web. I mean I would have expected a wake up a five do a meditation Do we go for a run that that whole sort of
Natacha Océane 1:15:29
a lot of people think like people have very much have an idea of what health and fitness yeah looks like. But nobody got time for that. Not if you want like not if you want to also have like a working life and stuff like that. Like I can imagine that for like the retired the retired like feel good retreat kind of life. But no, I don't have time to do all
Ali Abdaal 1:15:53
what material item under 100 pounds. Could you not live without
Natacha Océane 1:15:57
joy? I think I couldn't live without i Good stripping things my life. What's yours? Maybe that'll give me an idea.
Unknown Speaker 1:16:04
I was gonna question
Natacha Océane 1:16:07
your glasses. Maybe they're above 100.
Ali Abdaal 1:16:09
Yeah, no, I think I guess the way I think it's like, what's a, like a thing that has that sort of underrated that people don't owe me at university, it was like a five quid doorstop I would just like wedge my door open at all times. And my social life was 10 times more interesting than if my door was closed by default. So like, that little thing had such an enormous impact on my uni experience. So I now recommend it to everyone. Oh, schedule. Stop.
Natacha Océane 1:16:37
That is a nice one. I guess I would say my diary.
Ali Abdaal 1:16:44
Oh, you have a diary? Yeah. Is it like physical diary?
Natacha Océane 1:16:46
Yeah. Well, I I used to keep a diary from when I was about five to 18 strict. It's actually really crazy reading back. It's like crazy. And now I kind of enter into it every like now and then I don't I don't journal. It's more just like, when I'm really feeling something like I'll just write write write. But yeah, I have a diary. Nice. Do you have several diaries? A whole you got a whole collection? Yeah. whole collection?
Ali Abdaal 1:17:17
And do you find it? It's helpful to kind of process your thoughts. I think
Natacha Océane 1:17:21
it's helpful. Yeah. Especially because the process of writing like really slows down. Yeah, it's not a typing. Yeah, it really just slows everything down. Yeah, I find it helpful. Also, because it's no one is ever going to read it. Well, hopefully. Hopefully, no one's ever gonna read it. So you can really just put whatever you want. And then you can really be like, hey, that's you being over the top there. Or, or however, I just find it quite therapeutic. I just like getting my ink pen out for it. So yeah, it's
Ali Abdaal 1:17:51
very fancy. If you lost everything, how would you start a business again?
Natacha Océane 1:17:56
Sounds really I don't know if it sounds really arrogant. I feel like I could do anything could be of service to anyone. Also, I have no embarrassment of doing like a like, I don't have a oh, I can't do that kind of job. Like i i used to clean. I used to. I used to work as a lifeguard like, as in. i All I've done so many jobs. I used to be a waitress like I used to just do like pots and pans. I used to just go round and clean people's cars. Like I don't have any embarrassment of what job I need to do. So just start from there. Build up invest. I don't have I don't have much of it. I don't spend a lot of money like I'm not really much of a spender. Just save and invest and, and just go about it from there, Eddie.
Ali Abdaal 1:18:45
What book would you recommend to everyone with just one? Oh, well, 123 like I'm always interested in maybe
Natacha Océane 1:18:51
one thing. The one thing Oh, yeah. Gary Keller. Yeah. Mastery, mastery, Robert Greene. And Quiet. Quiet. Okay. Is a really good one. Actually. That's that one was topic. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 1:19:05
Oh, interesting. Yeah, cuz I guess you identify as an introvert. So that's like a very introvert tea type book.
Natacha Océane 1:19:10
I was I feel like it's really relevant nowadays, especially for like, especially well, especially in my industry, for social media, in social media, like people say things with so much confidence doesn't mean that right, like not everyone should have. Not everyone. If you don't know about something, you shouldn't be speaking about something. Because you just don't know that I don't talk about stuff. I don't know, because I don't know. It would be wrong with me to talk about it. And so I think it's important in this day and age,
Ali Abdaal 1:19:40
what quote or mantra do you live by?
Natacha Océane 1:19:42
There's one from Eleanor Roosevelt, which is it goes along the lines of You wouldn't worry so much about what others think about you if you realise how seldom they do.
Ali Abdaal 1:19:52
Nice. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. If mine is probably journey before destination.
Natacha Océane 1:20:03
I think I've heard you say that before actually,
Ali Abdaal 1:20:05
that's one of my usual skills. I just love it. I just think it applies to all areas of life. Yeah, what's your take on that journey or destination,
Natacha Océane 1:20:12
genuine destination, um, I have fallen for the just reached the destination, don't worry about the journey. Like I think I like being honest with myself have gone into things where the journey is shit. But at the end, I'll get somewhere. I think it's just about measuring, like, where that success where the light, like if that's an acceptable way to live by things for certain in certain circumstances, when it comes to your life, it probably helps to go through like the journey because yeah, the journey teaches you so much as well. Like, I think that's the whole thing about, like success, like, overnight success can sometimes be really harmful because you can learn so much from the journey.
Ali Abdaal 1:20:59
Yeah. And the other way I think of is like, the journey, which is really all that we have at the end of the day. Like, I don't know about you. But for me when I kind of accomplish a goal. There isn't really any sort of lasting satisfaction from that. And it's more about that, you know, the friends have made along the way it wasn't fun. In fact, that kind of thing. It did I learned something.
Natacha Océane 1:21:19
Do you think because do you one of those people who once you've achieved a goal, you just kind of shrug it off? Yeah,
Ali Abdaal 1:21:25
I think I'm really bad at celebrating wins and things. It's like Alright, cool. That's fine. It doesn't change my day. So I'm gonna grab a cup of coffee. He's still gonna make a video like the I feel like whatever happens, I'll just put her around doing doing my thing.
Natacha Océane 1:21:39
Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I also do the same way. It's like, I'm not very good at celebrating an achievement. I just kind
Ali Abdaal 1:21:47
of on to the next cool.
Natacha Océane 1:21:51
Keep moving. Yeah, yeah.
Ali Abdaal 1:21:53
So yeah, thank you so much for coming on. It's been it's been an absolute pleasure. We'll put links to all of your things in the video description in the show notes whether people are watching or listening to this. Where I guess Yeah, where can people find you any projects you want to shout out or drive to get to gets people to check out?
Natacha Océane 1:22:10
So you can find me on YouTube? You can find me on Instagram. You won't find me on tick tock. Not yet, anyway. And yeah, I work with dieticians, if you're looking for training programmes that are scientifically backed, I've got your back. And that's pretty much it
Ali Abdaal 1:22:28
sick. That's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you very much for listening. All of Natasha's links and all the resources we discussed will be in the show notes and in the video description if you're watching this on YouTube. Thank you again for tuning in. And if you did enjoy the episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts that would be fantastic so that more people can discover the content and the podcast. Thank you so much and catch you later.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai