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This is a show for burnt-out fashion designers (and TDs, PDs, patternmakers and beyond) who want more flexibility while still doing work they love. As a freelance fashion designer, you can build your fashion career on your own terms. Freelancing in fashion is the only way to get freedom in your day (instead of being tied to a desk). Whether you want to earn extra money on the side, fund your fashion brand, or replace your salary, the FDGP podcast will help you get there. Listen in for actionable tips and strategies to kickstart or grow your career as a freelance fashion designer, build your confidence, and create the life you want. Hosted by $100k+ fashion freelancer Sew Heidi, the show features interviews and strategy sessions with successful freelance fashion designers from around the world who've ditched toxic fashion jobs and taken control of their own destinies. This is the only place to get REAL insights from REAL freelancers who have built REAL careers on their own terms. (Formerly the Successful Fashion Freelancer podcast.)
Heidi [00:00:00]:
When and how do you decide to put your corporate job hunt on the back burner and lean full force into freelancing? It's a very personal decision and one that my guest today was faced with. Marco Bruni is one of the most ambitious and hardworking people I know. He puts a 150% into everything he does, and he's not one to give up. Yet his corporate job hunt in the fashion industry was just not panning out. He wanted to share the real and everyday struggles of someone trying to get their break in fashion because as he said, that is where most people are. So while this conversation is a twist on what I usually air on the podcast, I think you'll find it inspiring and refreshing. Marco has officially decided to go all in on freelancing, and our conversation today takes many interesting paths as we talk through his journey. We go through why he didn't give up, why he decided to go in all in on freelancing, and the benefits of being on the struggle bus.
Heidi [00:00:47]:
Yes. They exist. And so much more. You'll also hear a really cool story at the end about how he turned his permalance gig into a real freelance gig and negotiated a 60% increase in his hourly rate. You're gonna love this episode. Let's get to it. Alright. Marco, talk to me.
Heidi [00:01:04]:
You sent me an interesting pitch, and I was like, what what do I do with this?
Marco Bruni [00:01:10]:
Yeah. So, yeah, basically, introduction wise, I'm Marco. I've been kind of trying to grind it out in the fashion industry here for a number of years. I'd say, like, 4 years, like, really maybe not even 4, 3 years. And, tried to get a position right after I graduated from fashion school, which was difficult without having too much experience. I got lucky and got a position at the design school that I went to, And then after that, I sort of attempted to get jobs in design and product development and technical development in corporations, big corporations where I'm from in Vancouver. And it's been it's been a challenge, despite trying to do more effort or putting an extra effort into the way that I come across, in terms of applying for positions, whether it be sending resumes, where I attach videos of myself explaining stuff, whether it be doing kind of, like, projects myself, where I go through an entire product development process, and go to the headquarters of these companies specifically and drop off these projects with my resumes to try to show my face and my personality. For a while, it's just not been panning out too well for me.
Marco Bruni [00:02:27]:
But because I love fashion industry as cheesy as it sounds, I'm trying to figure out the best possible way to make it work in this position, which made me kind of come across Heidi, and her kind of specifics in working in freelance. And so I've kind of pushed my attention into moving more into freelance based stuff and specifically just focusing on how I can make that work as opposed to spending all my time trying to get a job at a company that isn't working out. So that's where I'm headed at.
Heidi [00:02:56]:
Okay. Cool. And and the reason you wanted to like, you were like, I'm pitching myself for the you you wrote this whole long pitch, and then at the end, you're like, so basically, I'm pitching that you interview me.
Marco Bruni [00:03:08]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:03:08]:
And you were like, I know this is a really interesting angle, but, you made some really compelling points about why you've like, and you said I know this doesn't fit your typical episode.
Marco Bruni [00:03:20]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:03:20]:
But you made some really compelling points as to why you felt like I should still bring you on the show. Obviously, I have because here you are. Yeah. But talk about some of those points.
Marco Bruni [00:03:31]:
Yeah. So I I feel like a lot of times when you hear I don't even wanna say just success stories, but when you watch, like, inspirational, like, things where whether it be inspirational videos, when you watch podcast with specific guests, when you watch a lot of things, you hear of what I just said, success stories and what people kinda went through to get to where they are now, and, like, the struggles they went through and how they worked on this for years years years. You look at simple things even like, Kentucky Fried Chicken, how many times you had to go to people's doors before you finally, like, got your recipe. I allude to this because you hear the success stories from those people, or you hear their stories because they ended up making it. They made they made it to a point where they were, at least in their eyes, successful and people were interested in listening to them. My kind of interesting take was kind of sort of listening to a person's perspective when they're kind of in the midst of going through that kind of struggle, that, like, attempt to make themselves reach a point of happiness, reach a point where they're, like, in their eyes, they have made it, but they haven't yet made it. I'm kind of an individual that always, like, looks at perspective and perception, and I might see things one way, but it's always interesting to see things from another way. So my kind of pitch was, that's great.
Marco Bruni [00:04:46]:
I love hearing these people that made it and hearing how they got through there, but I'd also love to hear, oh my god, what are they doing in this exact moment when they're struggling? Like, what are you doing? What have you been trying that's not working? How can maybe somebody else kinda give you information that can help, so on and so forth?
Heidi [00:05:01]:
Yeah. It was interesting because you I have to look at the notes here because I, I don't know if you did how much research you did on this pitch, but you said you're like, we hear the stories of people like John Krusinski, who is from the office, who was gonna give up on acting if he didn't get the role in the office. But then, like, obviously, like, that was his tipping point. And then Melissa McCarthy who was gonna give up on Hollywood if she didn't make it by the time she was 30. And then just days before she turned 30, she got a role in the Gilmore Girls. And so the the interesting angle just to, like, dig a little bit more into this, because this is kind of part of your pitch I thought was really fun was you're, like, we hear them interviewed once they have made it, but we're not hearing them right in that moment of, like, I'm still fighting.
Marco Bruni [00:05:45]:
Totally. Which would be amazing which would be amazing because that's the majority of people. I feel like the majority of people are in that stage.
Heidi [00:05:53]:
Yeah. So you are, like, in that moment of, like, blood, sweat, and tears. So I think this is gonna be a really relatable interview. But then also talking about I mean, I, transparently, if everyone listening, I've known you casually for a hot minute, years, and one way or another, like, through my email list and stuff. And
Marco Bruni [00:06:13]:
Totally.
Heidi [00:06:15]:
I very much know your work ethic. It is exceptional top a, like, you push really, really hard. And so when you were, like, telling me about these jobs you were going after, I was like, oh, I know your work ethic. Like, you are just not getting them for some reason. Like, some of them you got through multiple rounds of interviews and, like, lost it at the end. Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:06:40]:
I, I think I think another kind of, if I can even provide some advice is never
Heidi [00:06:46]:
Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:06:46]:
Quit a job until you have another job, which is what I did. I was so very confident that I was getting a position at one of these places, that the another position that I was in, I was meant to sign a new contract to keep teaching, and that's what it was. It was a teaching position. I was meant to sign a new contract to keep teaching, and for other reasons I won't get into, I decided not to sign that contract and believe that I was getting this position. I didn't get the position, and then I was left jobless, unfortunately.
Heidi [00:07:20]:
Okay.
Marco Bruni [00:07:20]:
So, yeah, don't quit a job until you have one.
Heidi [00:07:22]:
Okay. Yeah. That's great advice. I think that's one of those things that that pretty much everybody learns the hard way. Sometimes multiple times. So okay. So you are fighting for these positions. They're not coming to fruition.
Heidi [00:07:37]:
You're getting, like, so close, yet you're not giving up. And and we'll get to the we'll talk to about the freelancing component of it. Like why you've kind of decided to focus on pursuing freelancing more aggressively. You're kind of like, I'm gonna put the job stuff on hold for now, not abandoning it forever, but, like, this is on the back burner. I'm putting all my effort into freelancing. And we can talk about that in a minute. But first, what I wanna talk about, and I have we had a really long chat back and forth in LinkedIn when you were pitching me this idea. I was like, well, what do you what do you wanna talk about? And I said I that's what I said.
Heidi [00:08:13]:
I said, what are some of the specific things you wanna talk about? And you said, why do you keep trying? Why aren't you giving up? What are the benefits of being in the position that you're in? It sounds crazy, but there are some. So talk a little bit about that because I think, you know, the the benefit of talking to someone who's in this position, you know, who where a lot of people are in this position is, yeah, like, do I just give up?
Marco Bruni [00:08:35]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:08:36]:
My position sucks. Like, everything's horrible. Like but you've seen some, like what's it? The silver lining to the cloud. Totally. And why aren't you giving up? Like, tell us about that.
Marco Bruni [00:08:50]:
I think I think for, like, a number of reasons. I think the first thing, and I should be super transparent about this, is I'm lucky to be in a situation where I am able I'm able to spend a little bit more time going after this than a lot of other people would be, so I should be transparent about that. But I think another aspect of it too is and I think I just learned this, like, from perspective. Like, once I there was a moment in my life when I was younger where I really had to, like, shift my perspective to see things differently, and that was kind of, like, helped me further along in my life. And now I'm at another point where I I really when I just feel like every time I talk to somebody, I'm always, like, trying to bring up perspective. And I think the big thing with this is realizing that, yes, I'm maybe in a position where things aren't working exactly how I want them to be, but it's also making me realize and making me learn different ways of approaching things that I wouldn't otherwise have done. So for example, I may have been, like, not getting these positions right off the bat. Right? Like, I may have gotten that first job that I applied for and never have learned, oh, I need to maybe make a video of myself to show myself more.
Marco Bruni [00:10:02]:
I may need to make a project of myself to showcase some more. I may have not realized that I have to actually put in additional effort to get where I want. Like, sometimes things just don't come immediate. Like, that person that never actually, like, fails in my life, if they just keep, like, getting things the first time, the first time, the first time, they never actually know what happens when you fail. And then when they're, I don't know, 35 years old, the first time they fail, and they're like, holy crap. What do I actually do now? These kind of things, these failures, I'm gonna call them, make you realize, okay. What else can I do? It makes you keep having to be creative, which kinda, like, leeways into another thought is because I am we are in, like, a creative industry where you are kind of coming up with things. It also is making my brain have to think creatively.
Marco Bruni [00:10:50]:
Hey. What else can I do? This isn't working. Okay. That doesn't work. What else can I do? What else can I do? I think another point with that too, and this is hopefully, it doesn't go too off topic, but, I was talking to somebody recently about, like, they they're like, oh, you're a designer. That's so cool. I can never be creative. I can never design something like that.
Marco Bruni [00:11:08]:
And to them, I was like, I bet you you could, but your life right now isn't focused. Like, your brain isn't working in that way. You're a manager at Walmart right now, so all you're thinking about is that. And then you go home to your wife and your kids. You don't actually think about being creative necessarily. Whereas, I'm in a position where that's that's all I'm doing is trying to be creative. So my perspective on things is maybe a little bit different, because of those kind of stuff those kind of things. Sorry.
Marco Bruni [00:11:37]:
And then to kinda go back to your point too about why I keep doing it, I've also always been that person that I like, go after what you actually want. Like, I'm so invested and interested in fashion. That's the only thing I can see myself doing, so I'll kinda do whatever it takes.
Heidi [00:11:54]:
Okay. Okay. It's really good perspective. And I when you were like that person that gets to their, like, age of 35, and they have never failed. And the first stereotype of person I thought about was, like, you know, maybe someone that comes from, like, a lot of money Yeah. And who has been spoon fed kind of everything, and maybe, like, you know, had money is not really a concern and maybe they have a job because they were they got the shoe in at this great job or something. And then something happens where they lose access to one of those amazing things that they just and they literally, like, don't know how to fucking deal with life. Damn.
Heidi [00:12:41]:
That's an extreme side. That was the person I envisioned when you said that. Right? Yeah. But, like, there's some quotes out there. Like, what's the one of, like, oh, it's something about, like, what comes from struggle. Like, struggle can produce a lot of amazing things. And when you're in the struggle moment, it can be really hard to, like, see through that. Yeah.
Heidi [00:13:07]:
But I think the older you get, and I'm 42. I know you're in your thirties or something.
Marco Bruni [00:13:13]:
29.
Heidi [00:13:14]:
29? 20 died. Okay. But I, you're wise beyond your years. But the older I get, I, I for sure notice, like, in in those moments of struggle, it becomes each time it becomes a little bit easier to be like, I know there's light on the other side, and I know I have to keep fighting, and it's really painful right now. It's the struggle feels really real, but I know that, like, there is something on the other side, and you're always gonna look back and think, good thing that happened.
Marco Bruni [00:13:50]:
Totally. 100%. Which is yeah. You have to you have to keep telling yourself that too for sure. And and I like you said to the the seeing things differently or, like, trying different things. Like, I've this might this might sound funny. I don't know if anybody's done this before, but kind of in my process of trying to make things work, I guess, I've tried to look into, like, different ways that I can, like, make money creatively. So I did, like, here, let's let's let's go do some I I looked like, let's do surveys.
Marco Bruni [00:14:17]:
Let's do, like, games on my phone to make money while I try to figure out this kind of aspect. And, like, it's it's things that I would have never thought of as ways to make money. Mhmm. I guess my point in bringing that up is it just, like, this process of me trying to figure this out has made my brain think of what else can I do while I'm in this situation, and I would have never thought to do those things, I guess?
Heidi [00:14:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Cool. There's a couple of specific things I wanna talk about. I wanna talk about the the freelancing component. And one, let me see. Because, again, I have this whole long string.
Heidi [00:14:52]:
There was a bunch of things I wanted to put, in the conversation, and you said, I had a recent you told me about a recent win that you had with a freelance trial project. You post I think you posted on LinkedIn, and you said Yeah. I had a recent win with a freelance trial project, and I got paid the most I've ever been paid.
Marco Bruni [00:15:17]:
And
Heidi [00:15:17]:
so I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that, and then maybe and how that worked and all that stuff, and then also maybe parallel that to was there anything any light bulb that went off in your head of, like, was where was the tipping point of, like, maybe I should go after this free on stuff and put this corporate stuff on the back burner. And and I I don't know. Maybe that was a tipping point for it, but Yeah. I'm getting ahead of myself. Talk to us first about that project.
Marco Bruni [00:15:44]:
So, yeah, ironically, that project came up through your, fast circle kind of environment that you have with everybody. Yeah.
Heidi [00:15:55]:
I couldn't really
Marco Bruni [00:15:55]:
I couldn't think of the word there for whatever reason. Thank you. Yeah. So I I posted I don't remember exactly what I had posted. I think I just kinda gave, like, a spiel of who I was when I was introducing myself. Mhmm. Said what kind of things that I did. A few people had commented were impressed.
Marco Bruni [00:16:10]:
I think they looked at my website, and they were like, oh, you do some cool stuff. And then I got a comment from somebody who was asking. They were interested in, I think, sourcing yeah. They were interested in finding somebody to help them source fabrics and such, which I'll be honest with you, that wasn't like my that's not like my number one thing that I I work on, but I was like, hey. This is something that I also wanna learn how to be better at. So we talked, and she was interested in doing a trial project that I brought up where I basically was like, hey. I'm not sourcing isn't usually something that I do. I usually work on, like, flats, tech packs, design kind of aspects, but I'm a type of person that will not only, like, learn, figure this out, but something like sourcing.
Marco Bruni [00:16:52]:
I literally go through the depths of the Internet to find what you're looking for to make sure you find what you're looking for. So I realize I'm not, like, an expert at this, but I'm totally willing to do a trial project to see if you appreciate what I come back with. So she was happy with that. And like you alluded to, it ended up being the most amount of money that I've ever been paid, which was just for a trial project even. So I was like, wow. This is incredible. So that how that's how that came to be. And then in terms of kind of the light bulb, it's crazy that it took that to be the light bulb, but I think the light bulb was putting yourself out there.
Marco Bruni [00:17:34]:
Me just even putting a message in your community was me putting myself out there for people to actually see things that I do. I'm not the greatest. I have never been the greatest at as somebody that has a marketing degree, I'm horrible at marketing myself. I I don't really put out my work or really show a lot of what I do, partially because that I just never wanted to put myself into the Instagram hemisphere of, like, constantly having to, like, update stuff and constantly, like, not impress people, but constantly, like, have people's, like, oh, you're doing a great job. Like, I didn't I didn't want that. But I I but realizing that when you're in an industry like this, you you kinda have to, especially if you want to you have to put yourself out there. You have to post your work. You have to let people see what you're doing.
Marco Bruni [00:18:23]:
So that light bulb was, yeah, I put myself out there. Something great came out of it. I need to continue to do this. This is something that freelance can help a lot with or freelance is all about that. So I need to pull myself out there more.
Heidi [00:18:37]:
Okay. That's awesome. Well, congrats on that gig. That's really exciting. Thank you. So at what point in time did that sourcing opportunity land in relation to your very extensive, strenuous job hunt?
Marco Bruni [00:18:56]:
Oh, like like, way to the end.
Heidi [00:19:00]:
Like, had you already decided? You were, like, I'm gonna go for freelancing?
Marco Bruni [00:19:04]:
Oh, no. No. No. No.
Heidi [00:19:05]:
Okay. So you were still, like, set on finding this job and you just happen to randomly get this thing. I actually Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:19:14]:
That's a good point. I think it was so I have been, like, I had been trying very hard with corporate rep. So being in Vancouver, there are a number of pretty big name companies here, so I have been trying with those. But then I I think, yeah, it's just me posting on community. I got that. Right. I posted that and I got that message. And I'd say maybe, like, 2 years.
Marco Bruni [00:19:37]:
2 years of going with corporate, but then that opportunity pretty much came immediately after I tried to do something related to freelance. Like, right away when I tried to do something almost for the first time related to freelance, it happened.
Heidi [00:19:52]:
Yeah. Okay. So a couple of things I wanna I wanna know about. So you but when you got that sourcing opportunity, though, you had not yet decided to put corporate on the back burner.
Marco Bruni [00:20:04]:
Correct. Correct.
Heidi [00:20:05]:
Yes. Did so I guess what I'm looking for is when was the tipping point where you were like, I'm gonna put corporate on the back burner, and I'm gonna lean a 100% into freelancing. What was that, like, catalyst pivotal moment?
Marco Bruni [00:20:18]:
I think it was working on that project in a coffee shop and realizing, like, this is pretty awesome that I'm doing something that I really enjoy doing. I'm not like I didn't even have to, like, do it at 9 AM in the morning or 10 AM. It was, like, this project needs to be completed by this time. We allotted 2 hours, I think, was the amount that we did to do it. It has to be this well done in a sense. I'm like, I can do that. I can do that. I can do that.
Marco Bruni [00:20:46]:
I'm gonna go do that here. This is where I feel the most comfortable in doing this. And then while I was doing it, I was like, this is this is awesome. I feel so good doing this. I'm so happy about this. Wow. And I felt like I was actually, like, how do I put this? Like, I was contributing. I like, I when I was doing it, it's like, holy I'm actually, like, contributing something to a brand, like, an actual brand.
Marco Bruni [00:21:08]:
Because at that point, I I had most of my jobs to this point have been, like, teaching. They weren't necessarily actually for a brand. So I was like, oh my god. I'm actually, like, contributing to a brand, and this feels amazing. And then I I don't know. I also felt like a lot of, I don't wanna say pressure, but I felt like a lot of responsibility to do well as well, which I like. I like having that responsibility. It makes me wanna do better.
Marco Bruni [00:21:32]:
Mhmm. So, yeah, I'd say just, yeah, the the hybridness, the the what I was actually working on was actually enjoyable. A lot of those things, I'd say.
Heidi [00:21:45]:
And this, like it sounds like not to put words in your mouth, but this, like, flexibility of, like, like, I can do the work whenever. I I know the general deadline, but I can do the work whenever. I can go to the coffee shop and do it. Like, I don't necessarily have to go into this office and, like, sit at my desk from 9 to
Marco Bruni [00:22:01]:
7. Totally. Totally. That and also the aspect that this company that I'm working for wasn't based where I am.
Heidi [00:22:09]:
Oh, yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:22:11]:
The idea that you can work for companies, like, you you don't have to be restricted by your location.
Heidi [00:22:16]:
Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:22:18]:
Which is huge.
Heidi [00:22:18]:
Right. Because in the corporate world, you were, like, limited to, like, what do I have access to in Vancouver? Yeah. Exactly. Limitations for any location. For sure. Yeah. Okay. Oh, that's some powerful stuff.
Heidi [00:22:33]:
I love that. Okay. Now hard question. Let's see. Okay. I have the date here because Britney pulls all this stuff for the podcast in advance. You joined FAST in August 2021.
Marco Bruni [00:22:47]:
Right.
Heidi [00:22:47]:
And we are chatting in March of 2024. And I point blank asked you, I was like, well, how because because we talk mostly about freelancing on the podcast. And I was was like, well, how long have you been working on building and financing? And you're like and this is in, whenever you pitched me, like, a month ago.
Marco Bruni [00:23:07]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:23:08]:
And I was like, well, how long you've been working on building your fiance? You're like, well, I I I just started, like, this month. So what was the, like, catalyst to join fast back in 2021? And then not to make you feel bad, but, like, why didn't you take action on freelancing for 3 years? I'm doing math here. Time math.
Marco Bruni [00:23:30]:
Two and
Heidi [00:23:30]:
a half, three years, something like that.
Marco Bruni [00:23:33]:
Yeah. That sounds about right.
Heidi [00:23:34]:
Half years about. It'll be about 2 and a half years.
Marco Bruni [00:23:36]:
So that's actually crazy. So I remember I remember actually. So I I graduated from, fashion design school at the end of 2018. So it's been a hot minute since I've graduated from school. And living in a super expensive city like Vancouver, I mean, I didn't I'll be honest with you. I didn't intend to stay in Vancouver because of expenses and stuff. Ironically, right after I graduated from school, like, a month later, I got my first freelance opportunity where I actually did a project for this rapper in China and things like that. What? It it was through, like, a connect.
Marco Bruni [00:24:14]:
When I showed, like, my graduation collection, somebody saw it, was interested in the stuff that I did, and then we ended up collaborating and did this cool project for this rapper. Okay. My point in bringing that up though is I also realized my limitations with technical development. In fashion design school, we did not go very extensive into, like, flat drawing and tech packs and that kind of stuff. And it was through your website and through Google where I found you and realized, holy crap. I need to know how to do this to really get a job, a proper job. Like Mhmm. Great.
Marco Bruni [00:24:48]:
You know how to pattern make. Great. You know how to design, but technical development is, like, a huge aspect. Mhmm. So that's when I first did your initial courses where I did, like, your design to development. I did a bunch of those courses. And once I got through those, which were amazing, my mindset at the time was very it was focused on corporate. It was focused on I just learned this stuff.
Marco Bruni [00:25:14]:
I can now finally get one of these jobs at a Lululemon and Arterix, and Aritzia or whatever. So I'm gonna put in all this effort into getting one of those jobs. At the same time, I was work I was teaching at a school. I was doing and still sort of am doing, like, film roles because in Vancouver, the film industry is huge, so I do, like, film roles. So my mindset wasn't totally, like, freelance. I honestly hadn't even though I did that one freelance project and I thought it was awesome, I didn't. I don't know if it's because I just like, growing up, I was, like, that cold aspect of freelance was never really, like, came to me. Like, it it I feel like my mindset's always been you work, like, a 9 to 5 job.
Marco Bruni [00:25:59]:
You go to university. You get
Heidi [00:26:00]:
That's what you saw and you knew from the people you were surrounded by. Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:26:04]:
Totally. So it just it wasn't in my head that freelance was something that you could kinda make a living not even make a living from, but something that you could just do completely, like, without so I think that's it wasn't even me not, like, jumping into it was all started with us. Me not jumping into this, it was just, like, you can't do that. You I I just didn't think you could do it. Yeah. I think that was probably why it took me so long. It's just there was it just never hit me.
Heidi [00:26:33]:
But then you enrolled in FAST in 2021, and, like Yeah. It's 2 it's August 2021. Yeah. And it's okay. I mean, I'm not I'm not here to, like, shame you on any level. Like, we all have bought things that, like, get pushed to the back of the closet, literally or figuratively. Right? And then sometimes they make their way back out and sometimes they don't. But it's it's interesting to me because I I guess I'm like, okay.
Heidi [00:27:00]:
2018, you graduated. You didn't have much thought of freelance. Corporate just is kinda what you knew. But then in 2021, you bought FAST, which is a freelancing program. And then went aggressively after corporate, and then here we are, like, two and a half, almost 3 years later, and you're, like, I'm gonna do this thing now. And and so I was just curious, because we have many students who not everybody makes it through the program for a long list of reasons. That's any online course. Right? And and some people do come back.
Heidi [00:27:30]:
And so I guess I was just curious about that. And if you don't really think you have an answer or something, that's fine too.
Marco Bruni [00:27:36]:
I wonder if it's also because I was in the midst of being, like, close, like, interview wise with these companies. So I I signed up for that with the intent of doing it, and then I was close to getting one of these roles at that same point.
Heidi [00:27:51]:
Okay.
Marco Bruni [00:27:52]:
So my mind trailed off. This also just might be coming up with an excuse in the spot. I don't really know.
Heidi [00:27:56]:
That's okay.
Marco Bruni [00:27:57]:
But but it but it totally could have been that aspect as well where I was like, oh, I'm almost there. I'm gonna reach what again, what I thought was the norm, put that to the side, and then didn't didn't continue it. I'm I'm really trying to think back at it.
Heidi [00:28:11]:
Yeah. It was just it it's funny because I remember, like, 3 or 4 months ago, you pinged me on LinkedIn, and you were like, hey. You had some question about something. And I said,
Marco Bruni [00:28:26]:
I was
Heidi [00:28:26]:
like, you're in fast. Why don't you come to the coaching call and talk about that? And you were like, oh, right. And you were like, how do I sign up for that? And I was like, email Britney and she can send you. Like, I don't know if you get, like, lost the login and stuff, which is fine. It happens. So okay. That's aside. I'd love to chat a little bit about, if you're up for it.
Marco Bruni [00:28:47]:
Yeah. For sure.
Heidi [00:28:48]:
The, Permalance gig that you just turned into freelance and gave yourself a big old raise.
Marco Bruni [00:28:57]:
Yes.
Heidi [00:28:58]:
Are you open to sharing about this?
Marco Bruni [00:28:59]:
Yeah. For sure. For sure.
Heidi [00:29:01]:
Okay. Tell us.
Marco Bruni [00:29:03]:
So basically this, this great company that I'm working for, I signed on as a apparel designer and a product developer and wasn't offered the most amount of money, but I was I'm was willing to do it because I liked kind of where they were headed with things. They they were looking at developing new products. They were looking at kind of expanding their line of things that they were offering, which was interesting to me as I kind of I mean, that realm of things. I'm focused on product development from the the idea of designing all the way to actually getting into production, and that was something that they were interested in. So while the money wasn't there right away, I kinda looked at it from almost that same freelance kinda mindset where it was a trial project. The cost or the money that I was getting paid, I kinda looked at it as, k. That's gonna be I'm not gonna let that dictate how I work. I'm gonna look at this as an opportunity to show what I'm capable of.
Marco Bruni [00:30:09]:
Not gonna think about the money. Show my ability to pattern draft, to create tech packs, to create flats, extremely detailed, basically prove kind of that I'm worth more than that before I actually ask for more than that, if that makes sense. Mhmm. Mhmm. And then it kind of, over time, just got to a point where I was like, I feel like I'm doing a lot here. I feel feel like I'm worth more than this. I'm going to bring it up to the company and ask them and be like, hey. Is this is what I'm doing.
Marco Bruni [00:30:45]:
This is what I'm not being offered. Or sorry. You're paying me this, but I'm technically actually still freelancing for you. I'm not an actual employee even though I am an employee, which I'll be honest with you, these are things that I didn't and I wouldn't have discovered unless I, at the time, was going through your freelance course and, like, being more in-depth with freelance. So realizing things like even though I'm working for you as a company, I'm using the drafting table that I own at home. I'm using my sewing machines. I'm using all of these books that I've personally bought on pattern drafting, on spec specking a garment. I'm driving and paying for, like, the the mileage or whatever to meetings.
Marco Bruni [00:31:36]:
I'm really not being provided anything at the company. So, technically, I am working freelance. I'm also not getting any benefits.
Heidi [00:31:44]:
I
Marco Bruni [00:31:44]:
feel like I deserve a little bit more money. So all these things I kind of looked at, and I was like, I need to make this clear to them. I need to express this to them and show them that these are all the things I'm doing. These are all the things that I have.
Heidi [00:31:56]:
Mhmm.
Marco Bruni [00:31:57]:
Can I get compensated fairly for this?
Heidi [00:32:01]:
So you were I mean, it sounds like you had you had some work flexibility. You weren't always required to be in house.
Marco Bruni [00:32:08]:
Right.
Heidi [00:32:09]:
But you you were working quite quite a few hours, like 28 a week. Yeah. And and kind of sounds like correct me if I'm wrong. Like, being expected to act a little bit like an employee on some level.
Marco Bruni [00:32:24]:
Totally.
Heidi [00:32:24]:
But getting compensated hourly, no no benefits, no paid time, no nothing. Yeah. Exactly. So, you're totally cool to say no, but would you be open to sharing hourly rate you were getting and then what you negotiated to?
Marco Bruni [00:32:38]:
Yeah. So I I signed on for $25 an hour in Canadian dollars just to be clear, because I'm Canadian.
Heidi [00:32:45]:
Yeah. So that would be, like, 21, 22, 23 US?
Marco Bruni [00:32:50]:
K. Something like that. Yeah.
Heidi [00:32:52]:
K. Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:32:53]:
Which I didn't even really when I when I got the job, that was kind of, like, explained to me, like, hey, you're gonna get 20 dollars an hour. It was just kinda, like, told to me.
Heidi [00:33:03]:
That's the word. Yes.
Marco Bruni [00:33:04]:
Yeah. And I because of the position that I was in, like, I was honest to just on EI. I was on EI because I had quit that job, and it was in kind of a bad situation.
Heidi [00:33:13]:
Sorry. What was that?
Marco Bruni [00:33:15]:
Oh, sorry. EI. So I was on employee employee insurance.
Heidi [00:33:19]:
So Employee insurance. Okay.
Marco Bruni [00:33:21]:
I was getting paid by the government because I didn't catch up at the time. Okay. Gotcha. So I had this opportunity, and I was like, you know what? Just don't even don't ask for more or anything. Just kinda go with it. And then kinda like I I was explaining earlier about just, like, proving myself kind of stuff. That was the that was the thought process. But I went from $25 and then we jumped it to $40 right now for Which is different lines.
Heidi [00:33:45]:
Negotiate
Marco Bruni [00:33:48]:
that?
Heidi [00:33:50]:
Like, for people listening who might be in a similar situation, like, how did you negotiate that? Like, for people listening who might be in a similar situation, like, how did you Yeah. Present that and, like, get them on board with, like, paying you, let's say, 45 40 no. It'd be, like, 80% more, 90% more or something.
Marco Bruni [00:34:11]:
Yeah. So it was double or be
Heidi [00:34:12]:
a 100% more. Yeah. I was thinking 40 no. It's, like, 80, 90% more.
Marco Bruni [00:34:16]:
That's about 80, 90% for sure.
Heidi [00:34:18]:
Yeah. How did you how did you do that?
Marco Bruni [00:34:21]:
I think I think, okay. So for the first thing I did is, like, prepared. So, like, I knew of the meeting, obviously, that we're gonna talk about, like, wages and stuff. I wasn't just gonna go in there blindly and just, like, speak off of, like, just looking at them and speaking. I wanted to have actual evidence. So I put together I think it was, like, 3 pages of information, information, kind of some of the stuff that I alluded to earlier, what I have provided, for the company. I even bought their resume or sorry. Not yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:34:51]:
No. Not their resume, the, the job description. So when I applied for the job, what their responsibilities were. And even though I said it earlier, on the responsibility sheet, it didn't say anything actually about pattern making. It didn't say anything about sample making. Those things weren't actually on there. They just came to be as as the role kind of got into it. So I brought that up.
Marco Bruni [00:35:15]:
I was like, hey. I've done multiple different used multiple skills to help this company, and I'm not getting paid for having those skills, essentially. So I wrote kind of those down as a means to why I deserve to get paid more. I did some research on freelance rates, what other people kind of are getting paid for a similar aspect. I think one of the things in the meeting too, and I think this is kind of a good thing to bring up, is especially in a position like this, a permalance position, where you're essentially working freelance, you're not getting benefits. It's not a corporation. Right? You're not getting benefits. You're not getting, any sort of leverage or anything for future pay.
Marco Bruni [00:35:57]:
You can't just go on something like Glassdoor. You can't just go on those kind of things to see, like, what does a typical fashion designer get paid? You you can't look at that. It's completely different. So I've I've I've used that as I brought that up as, like, a way of, hey. You can't just say that on this website, it says a fashion designer typically makes $25 an hour because that person is getting compensated in other ways, whereas in this position, I or anybody out there who might be in a similar position, you're not getting compensated in those same ways. So I thought those were important to bring up, And, yeah, I kinda just, like, sold myself.
Heidi [00:36:37]:
So were you did you propose the 40 and they just said sure?
Marco Bruni [00:36:41]:
No. It actually wasn't immediate. They they weren't they they didn't give me the go right away. It was, I think they were actually thrown off because they also had their own evidence of why I should get paid this amount, and part of that was, like, the Glassdoor information as well.
Heidi [00:37:00]:
Oh, wow. Interesting.
Marco Bruni [00:37:03]:
So I had to, like, iterate that stuff as well. So they I think they came into the meeting not wanting to, not expecting to pay me more.
Heidi [00:37:13]:
Clearly.
Marco Bruni [00:37:14]:
And then yes. And then after the meeting, they said, like, no, essentially. And then immediately, the the manager or whatever will send me a message and was, like, I'm going for a drive right now because I have to think about this more. And then we reached out, and it became what it is, as in getting paid more.
Heidi [00:37:33]:
And they just said, sure. We're gonna we're gonna give it to you. Yeah. Where did you pull this freelance data from for like, obviously, job stuff you pull from Glassdoor.
Marco Bruni [00:37:43]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:37:43]:
Where did you pull this data?
Marco Bruni [00:37:46]:
Full transparency, you definitely had some resources. I follow Heidi on LinkedIn and she's posted a number of different kind of I think there was even an email. You've sent 2 emails specifically saying talking about, like, rates that people charge and things like that.
Heidi [00:38:03]:
I'm I'm
Marco Bruni [00:38:03]:
trying to think where that was I'll be honest. That was, like, a huge part of it was information that you provided.
Heidi [00:38:08]:
So did you literally just, like, screenshot this and, like, have it as part of your pitch deck?
Marco Bruni [00:38:14]:
So so ironically, yeah, I I did screenshot and I the first the first meeting that I had, I was I didn't wanna just, like, completely show him that. I didn't wanna just be like, hey. These these people are paying these people this much. You need to pay me this much. I didn't wanna come across as an asshole, but I kinda had that, like, in my back pocket of what it was. And then once he kind of opened up a little bit of understanding, like, that I'm not what do you call, a corporate kind of employee in a sense Mhmm. Then I did pull numbers, and I actually, full transparency here, forwarded him one of your emails where
Heidi [00:38:52]:
you Oh, boo. You're making me so happy right now. I fucking love this so much. Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:39:00]:
I actually forwarded him one of his email list.
Heidi [00:39:02]:
I think you signed up for my email list.
Marco Bruni [00:39:04]:
Yeah. I should I should get them to to be like, yo, like because because another thing too about, like, freelancing, I was talking to another, somebody yesterday on on LinkedIn about this, so we were going back and forth, another freelancer. And, like, you're you're you're not just, like, getting paid for what you're doing. Like, there's so many other, like, things that are involved, like, especially in fashion. Right? Like, you're you're not just, like, doing if if I can use an example, tech packs and, like, flats like that. Maybe you are, but you also are potentially emailing and communicating with, like, factories in China at different hours of the night that it's hard to kinda, like, put that into a wage. Like, I don't know how it is with everybody, but for me, for example, if I'm working 28 hours a week, I might 3 hours a week be talking to a factory. I might 10 hours a week be talking to a factory.
Marco Bruni [00:39:56]:
I don't really know. And if I'm kind of like, what's the word? Like, you are only working 28 hours a week, it's hard to just be like, okay. I know exactly how much I'm gonna be talking to the factory. I know exactly how much I'm gonna be working on this stuff. So it it's hard to just, like, break it down into that. So looking at kind of these rates and, like, per kind of, like, showing him what they are, it encompasses that. You're encompassing that. You're gonna be talking to you're gonna be emailing people.
Marco Bruni [00:40:24]:
You're gonna be doing business development stuff. There's there's more aspects to it than what you're actually just, like, doing at that moment with, like, the design aspect or the tech pack aspect.
Heidi [00:40:34]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I think too, like, a couple things that never come into consideration is, like, that mental space that you and this is where hourly gets really tricky. It's, like, the mental space where you, like, might be solving problems in your head, on a walk, or in the shower, and, like, that's not often tracked. Totally. Or, you know, like, I just posted on LinkedIn about charging for sourcing and how, like, even if you already have the contact, you still need to charge for sourcing because you're not they're not paying you for just giving them an email, the 10 seconds it might take you to do that. Now if you're charging for sourcing, you're gonna put together a whole package, you're not just gonna pass them an email, but, it's like the value of all the resources and all the time and all the knowledge that you've built up over the years that is the reason you have these emails for these sources or something like that, and there's a tremendous amount of value in that, is not just handing over a contact. So Totally.
Heidi [00:41:44]:
You really do have to, like, switch your mindset on some of this stuff. And sometimes the freelancer struggles with that mindset. Sometimes the client struggles with that mindset. And and then it's the freelancer's job to, like you did, sell yourself. And, like, how do you prove your value and your benefit that you're offering and all this other stuff and maybe forward some emails with some numbers. But, yeah. There's there's so much depth to, like, think about all of these different nuances when it comes to pricing and value and all that. So I'm stoked for your raise.
Heidi [00:42:18]:
Congrats. That's really that's huge. That's huge.
Marco Bruni [00:42:21]:
It also just makes you realize that you can do that. Like like like, even just being I I think even, like, kinda really quickly going back to what you mentioned about, like, what was the light bulb moment too with with freelance in a sense. It's knowing that, yeah, you probably can you probably should be getting paid more than you actually are getting paid knowing that you can get paid more than that. Sometimes when you're working in corporate, you kinda just feel like this is it. I can only get this much or, okay, I'm doing all this work and I might get, like, a tiny little raise in aspects like that, but when you're in freelance, like, you're I don't wanna say it, but you kind of are the boss. You deserve you do this. You there's more money. You can get paid more.
Marco Bruni [00:43:00]:
You don't have to, like, struggle.
Heidi [00:43:03]:
Totally. Like, you can there's always a risk of losing the client for sure.
Marco Bruni [00:43:07]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:43:07]:
It's always a risk, but you can give yourself 20, 30, 40, 80% raises. Whereas, like, in corporate, you can get the 2% cost of living increase every year and maybe something else. I don't really know. I worked corporate for, like, 5 seconds, so it's not really my world. But I know it's typically nothing amazing. Sometimes. Right? There's outliers, but especially in fashion.
Marco Bruni [00:43:34]:
Totally. You're
Heidi [00:43:36]:
There tends to be this, like, glass ceiling. Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:43:40]:
And, like, I don't know. Like, expectations are high, but you're not always compensated. Whereas your expectations should always be high, I feel like, for yourself. At least that's how I look at things. But then you should also be compensated for it. And if you're in freelance and you're your own boss, you got to determine that, hey, I am gonna get compensated for that extra effort or for those expectations.
Heidi [00:44:01]:
Mhmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. You just you get a lot more power and control if we can be so good.
Marco Bruni [00:44:08]:
100%. 100%. If
Heidi [00:44:10]:
Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:44:11]:
And this is coming from someone starting to know. And I know that you've done it for a while, so you definitely know.
Heidi [00:44:16]:
Yeah. It's it's a pretty good feeling. It's and then compounded with the feeling of, like, getting to go to the coffee shop and work whenever you want and stuff, and you you get fewer boundaries.
Marco Bruni [00:44:28]:
Totally.
Heidi [00:44:29]:
Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:44:29]:
Yeah. You're not you're not closed then.
Heidi [00:44:31]:
Yeah. Thank you for pitching to be on the podcast. Thank you for putting yourself out there. Gosh. There is a lesson to learn in that. Right?
Marco Bruni [00:44:40]:
Totally.
Heidi [00:44:41]:
I really appreciate. This has been a really, really, really fun conversation, and I think everyone's gonna pull a lot of great inspiration, from it. So thank you. Thank you. I'll end with the question I ask everybody at the end. What is one thing people never ask you about being a freelance fashion designer that you wish they would? A burgeoning freelance fashion designer.
Marco Bruni [00:45:01]:
An emerging freelance fashion designer, and what can I say? What do they never ask me that I wish they asked me? Mhmm. I guess, like, I feel like a lot of people around me don't actually, like, know what it means. They don't like, they just they have a specific, like, expectation of what a freelancer is or Mhmm. Perspective of what a freelancer is, And I think a lot of times they think that it's just like, oh, you do this one little project here, then that's it. It means, like, you're working for a, like, a corporate job or you're working a regular job, and then you're just doing little one little side project here. You did a freelance gig here. So I think just this is super cheesy in general, but just, like, asking what it entails. What does it involve? What is all that goes into it? Like, most people don't realize that it's it's a business.
Marco Bruni [00:45:50]:
You're you're literally your own business, and there's there's things you need to put into place to make it a business and make it work for you. So Yeah. Yeah. Kinda lame, but, yeah, just ask what it entails. Like
Heidi [00:46:02]:
at all. Yeah.
Marco Bruni [00:46:03]:
Yeah. I think a lot of people like to, like, explain what they do. People maybe think that people don't like to talk about what they do a lot, but I I do. I like to educate people, and, obviously, I'm just learning in freelance, but, like, I wanna be able to, like, educate and be like, hey. This is exactly what I'm doing. This is what I've been trying. These are all the steps that I've been taking. Maybe you could do the same, and if they don't work for you, maybe you need to try something else.
Marco Bruni [00:46:25]:
Maybe they do work for you. Yeah. Ask ask the questions. I don't know.
Heidi [00:46:31]:
Maybe you just need to go through that struggle and get really creative.
Marco Bruni [00:46:34]:
Totally. A 100%.
Heidi [00:46:36]:
That's life sometimes. That is life.
Marco Bruni [00:46:39]:
Yeah. 100%.
Heidi [00:46:41]:
Yeah. Awesome. Where can people find you and connect with you online?
Marco Bruni [00:46:44]:
My LinkedIn, you could check out. It is Marco, f as in Frank, Bruni. I also sorta kinda go on Instagram, not too much, but it's the same thing. Marco f Bruni. Those are the only two places I really am on. I'd say mostly LinkedIn, though.
Heidi [00:47:01]:
Okay. Awesome. We'll link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on, Marco. It's been fabulous to chat with you.
Marco Bruni [00:47:06]:
Thank you for having me, Heidi. I appreciate you listening to my pitch, and, it was fun. I appreciate it.