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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Adam: I think the hardest thing for a lot of kids who've been through something like what I've been through or worse, is that they believe that their treatment was their fault. And I had to accept that's not my fault. My father not loving me is, has nothing to do with me. It's him. And [00:00:15] yet a lot of kids bear the, the burden of their parents' failures, and then they carry that and all it does is weigh them down and they just fixate on the past.
They fixate on these things and what could have been, and how this could have been better, and this and that. These are things that we have no [00:00:30] control over, that we can't change the past, and it just becomes wasted emotions. It's wasted if you learn nothing from it, especially. And so what I chose to do was to learn from my father's mistakes.
[00:00:43] Stephanie: You must be some kind of [00:00:45] therapist
Today I'm welcoming back to the podcast Adam B. Coleman. He is the founder of Wrong Speak Publishing and Wrong Speak Films. He is also the author of The Children We Left [00:01:00] Behind and Black Victim to Black Victor. He also recently produced two documentaries, America's Moms and The Illegal Highways. Adam has previously appeared on this podcast on episodes 19 and [00:01:15] 115, both speaking about his personal experiences as a Black father in America.
Today we're going to talk about his recent essay, I Found My Real Father. Adam, welcome back. It's so good to see you.
[00:01:25] Adam: Thank you for having me back on.
[00:01:27] Stephanie: So it was nice to meet you in person last [00:01:30] fall at the Genspect Conference in Albuquerque, and I felt called to reach out to you recently when I saw the episode you pub- published on your Substack in September about finding your real father.
I was so [00:01:45] moved. I, I think I might have teared up a little bit. And I thought that this was part... I mean, it would be an, a mind-blowing story no matter whose story it was. But- Yeah ... thinking especially of you and how much [00:02:00] fatherhood has meant to you and your life, both the, the absence and the presence of fatherhood, you know, what you learned from the shortcomings of the man you now know was not your real father.
Like, [00:02:15] wow. And you know how, uh, the way that he essentially abandoned and neglected you inspired you to do right by your own son. Um, it's just such a big part of your story, and [00:02:30] I wanted to check in with you after l- learning that you learned that you had spent your whole life thinking that your father just didn't really care about you all that [00:02:45] much, only to discover that he was never your father at all, and that the true nature of the man who created you was actually much more, um, much more like you, like a kind, caring person.
What, what has that [00:03:00] been like for you?
[00:03:01] Adam: It's nice to have a father, but there are times that I forget that I have a father who's alive. So it's like, "Oh yeah, I've..." It... I realized the other day, I was like, [00:03:15] "Oh yeah, I should reach out to..." I've, like, I'm not used to having one, I'm not used to having a father that reach out to and communicate with.
But even more so after he died, it, it just, it's not a action to reach out [00:03:30] to or anything like that. So, I never thought about this before, but it's like a new behavior of actually, like, I, I can reach out to- He's not just some guy, he's my father. I can reach out to my father and I can talk to him. [00:03:45] Um, and it's been good.
Uh, you know, I don't know how much, uh, you want me to get into, like how this even came about.
[00:03:54] Stephanie: For those who haven't read the essay, I'd love for you to just tell the whole story. And just to clarify, it was y- the man you [00:04:00] thought was your father died. The man who is- Yeah ... actually your father is alive and well.
[00:04:05] Adam: Correct.
[00:04:05] Stephanie: Um, and so how old were you when the man you thought was your father died?
[00:04:10] Adam: I wanna say he passed in 2016 or '17. It, it sounds [00:04:15] weird saying, or is, like I don't know the exact time, because I found out he died, like, months after he passed away. So there was no funeral, there was no notification, there was none of that.
Like, it was just like a- in [00:04:30] passing, my mom found out because she just happened to look him up online and found his obituary. That's why I'm like, I don't even remember exactly. Like, it just becomes kind of fuzzy. But yeah, it wasn't, wasn't that long ago.
[00:04:43] Stephanie: Can imagine there's sort of a [00:04:45] lack of closure there, but that also speaks to the, kind of the quality of the relationship that you had at the time, which was not much.
So it was well into your adult life, about 10 years ago, more or less. Yeah. And, um, so you, you had little contact with him to, [00:05:00] to begin with because he never really showed that he cared about you all that much, but then having contact with him just wasn't an option. So interesting that you were just habituated.
Like, there's this mindset shift that you're talking about [00:05:15] with, um, realizing that you can reach out to him and, and I feel like this is spiritual where, which is where I, I think ultimately might wanna go with you today.
[00:05:23] Adam: Yeah, absolutely ...
[00:05:24] Stephanie: but yeah, just tell the story. Just tell the story from the beginning for those who haven't heard it.
[00:05:28] Adam: The beginning as far as, [00:05:30] uh, discovering my new father or my real father. Actually, it sounds weird. So I would say the, the beginning actually started with like, um, we would watch these talk shows, and there's one particular talk show, I think it was just canceled, [00:05:45] uh, it was called Karamo. And a lot of his shows would have a lot of Black Americans on, but it also-
[00:05:52] Stephanie: Wait, Karamo has his own talk show now?
[00:05:55] Adam: Yeah. Well, it, it, it's, it just got canceled, but I think it was on for, like, [00:06:00] four seasons. You can watch it on YouTube.
[00:06:01] Stephanie: Okay. 'Cause I liked him on Queer Eye before it got too woke and before I became not woke.
[00:06:09] Adam: Um- I didn't realize that he was even on there. I just saw a dude with a talk show.
[00:06:13] Stephanie: Okay. Well, we're...
I mean, it's [00:06:15] Karamo Brown, right?
[00:06:16] Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same guy.
[00:06:17] Stephanie: Okay.
[00:06:18] Adam: I didn't, I didn't learn about the whole Queer Eye thing until, like, months later after watching.
[00:06:22] Stephanie: Oh, how interest- yeah, I knew Karamo as, like, the life coach member of the team and, and honestly- Yeah ... I, I [00:06:30] liked a lot wh- of what he had to say, but I had no idea he was a talk show host.
So, you're catching me up to speed on all kinds of things.
[00:06:37] Adam: Well, thanks to him. I was watching a lot of his shows, and a lot of the shows featured a lot of Black Americans who were [00:06:45] looking for their fathers or looking for siblings, and the absolute, like, messiest of situations that these children are thrown into.
Some of them grew up not knowing the entire time. Some of [00:07:00] them thought their father was one person and then something happened, or the rumors started coming around and they wanted to figure out if it was this other person. Some of them were an adoption and, you know, it, it's just a, a huge mess, and they're [00:07:15] there to do a DNA test to figure out who exactly is their sibling, father, stuff like that.
And so I remember thinking about my... at the time, my sister. So I grew up with my sister, [00:07:30] but I had another sister with my father. So I'm speaking in past tense. I had a s- a, another sister with my father, which my mom always, always told me that he wasn't involved in their life. And, [00:07:45] you know, we never met or, or anything like that.
I don't know what they look like, never talked to them. And so I thought to myself, "What if my sister's looking for me?" And so I talked to my wife about it, and [00:08:00] I was like, "I should try and look for him." So I talked to my mom. I was like, "Do you remember a name?" So she gave me a name and some loose geography, and tried to look online.
I didn't really get anywhere. So my wife was like, "Why don't you do a [00:08:15] DNA test to see if something comes back, see if you can find something?" So I did the DNA test with Ancestry, and so when it came back, initially I'm looking at, like, you know, I'm this percentage this and this [00:08:30] percentage that, you know, kinda laughing and stuff.
And then, um, Ancestry splits it in two. They show the mother's side, which I'm looking at the mother's side. I can see the surnames, and they all look familiar all the different family [00:08:45] surnames. And then I look on the father's side. Now, the, the thing about my father was that he was from Trinidad. I knew his name.
I knew he was from Trinidad. [00:09:00] Uh, he moved to America in his 30s. So my expectation was to see lineage from Trinidad and to see surnames that are Caribbean-sounding and things like that. But when I looked [00:09:15] at my father's surname, his... I'm sorry, when I looked at my father's side under the surnames, his surname wasn't there, and I thought that was weird.
And then even more so, all the surnames were typical Black [00:09:30] American names. There was one unique, uh, last name. It was a different-sounding last name, and that's actually, turns out, my real father's last name. So I was like, "That's weird. Why isn't his surname here?" [00:09:45] And then I looked at the family trees of the people who were tested that was closest to me, and one of them was a, a, a f- a cousin, I believe, um, first cousin.
And so I looked at his family tree, and I'm looking at, you know, great-great [00:10:00] grandparents, and it says Mississippi. And I said, "What? That doesn't make any sense." And then I looked at another first cousin, and the same thing, Mississippi. [00:10:15] And I sat there thinking about this for, like, 20 minutes. I was like, "This doesn't make sense.
The only way this makes sense... No, but that can't be the case. The only way this makes sense, if [00:10:30] he's not my father." And so then I talked to Michelle about this, and I'm like, "Tell me if I'm wrong. Like, I mean, like, let's bounce it. Like, I did a DNA test, it showed me this. I know the man for sure, 100% is from [00:10:45] Trinidad, without a doubt, but it's showing Mississippi.
This doesn't make any sense to me other than that he's not my father." So I talked to... I ended up calling my sister. [00:11:00] I talked to my sister about it. She was shocked, and she said, you know, I should talk to my mom. My mom was away at the time on a cruise ship, so I couldn't talk to her. So I mean, that, that's essentially like the [00:11:15] beginning.
And, and so people understand, throughout my entire life, there was never rumors, there was never rumblings, there was never like this other guy who came around. There was never any of that stuff. For the... my entire life, I thought I was half [00:11:30] Trinidadian. You know, I... It... But I never felt it. My sister, on the other hand, looks like my father is, you know, in love with the Caribbean and, and all that stuff.
I never felt it. Like deep down, [00:11:45] never felt it. I didn't look like him. Everyone always said I looked like my mom. I was like, "I don't look like my mom." But I never jumped to the conclusion that someone else was my father. So I end up getting a search angel [00:12:00] to see if she can help to find who my father is.
Coincidentally, she was from Detroit. Uh, I was born in Detroit, so she thought she could, she could help, and she did. She helped approach the conversation with that first cousin who [00:12:15] was tested, and my first cousin is a, is a cop. So initially when she reached out to him, he thought it was like some scam artist or something.
Uh, he was very, uh, reluctant and then she kinda convinced him, like [00:12:30] gave him some information, then he gave some information. And so then he responded to my message on Ancestry and, um, and said, "Hey, here's my number. Call me." Called him right [00:12:45] away and I told him everything, and he's like, "You know, your father has to be someone on our side.
Has to be." And he's like trying to think of some names of some people who it could be. I was like... He's like, [00:13:00] "We're gonna figure out who your father is." He's... And, and before he ended the call, he's like, "I want you to know you are family, you are loved, and, you know, you belong in this family, and we're happy you're here with us."
And that meant a lot to me [00:13:15] because my entire life I've had family, but like only half of me. And most people don't have that. Most people have-- Maybe they're not connected with everybody [00:13:30] from every side, but they have some sort of acknowledgement from, from both sides. Maybe a cousin on this side and another cousin on this side or, or whatever.
And I've, I've just had, like, a, this nothingness on my father's side. And so to [00:13:45] have someone who just met me accept me meant a lot. It really meant a lot. So later that day, he, uh, he tries to call me and I, I was busy. I called him back [00:14:00] and he said, um, "Hey, are you sitting down?" I said, "No." You know, I have a hard time sitting down when I'm on the phone.
And he said, "I think you should sit down." He's like, "We found your father." And I just started crying like a little [00:14:15] kid because, you know, weeks, weeks had gone by for me figuring this out and then, and then trying to figure out like where-- who am I? You know, where do I belong [00:14:30] now? 'Cause at, at least I had an absentee father, but at least I knew where I came from.
Now I d- I don't know where, where, where am I from? Who am, who am I? And that, I struggled with that for, like, a about a week of [00:14:45] just being confused. And so, you know, for him to tell me that was just, like, a big relief that I, I'll be able to know even more so where, who, where I come from. [00:15:00] And, and even, like, the, the real blessing is that he's still alive.
You know, he's 76 years old. You know, so he's still alive and, uh, before I could even talk to him, my uncle called me [00:15:15] and he said, you know, "You're loved. You're family. I love you, nephew. I'm so glad you're here. I'm sorry we didn't know about you before, but I'm glad you're here with us now." And, uh, [00:15:30] he started making me cry.
It took a little bit. It took like a half hour, which feels like a long time in that circumstance but, like... And then I finally talked to, talked to my father and, um- [00:15:45] You know, from his perspective, he, he just had no idea. He had no idea. A little bit of the backstory, you know, when my cousin was asking questions he, he was calling my, my diff- [00:16:00] my uncle and he ended up speaking with my father.
But, um, my uncle remembers my mom, and my uncle's first wife n- was friends with my mom, or f- at least friendly with [00:16:15] my mom, and they were all introduced to each other, and through, through my uncle and his wife, that's how she met my father. They were messing with each other for a f- couple months or, [00:16:30] you know, something like that, and she got pregnant, but she was not monogamous with him, and they weren't in a committed relationship or anything like that.
And when he asked, [00:16:45] you know, "Is, is this my child?" She said, "No." And he knew that she was seeing somebody else, so, he just never thought... She said, "It's, it's not my kid." Like, "What, what am I supposed to do if she said it's not my kid?" So [00:17:00] she went on her way, and he went on his way. I mean, he has he had more kids, um, so I have siblings.
But, um, but that's essentially the story. So he, he really had no idea that I was his child. [00:17:15]
[00:17:15] Stephanie: And tell us about his reaction to finding out that you were his child.
[00:17:20] Adam: He was surprised but happy. Still is. You know, I'm actually going to meet him this week. He lives in Texas. I'm in New [00:17:30] Jersey. So, by coincidence, which I don't believe in coincidences anymore, um, I'm going to a conference in Texas, and he's gonna meet me there.
So, you know- But we've been talking basically every day. [00:17:45] If not on the phone, we text. Uh, you know, if I'm busy, he sends me a, a message at, at night, uh, saying, you know, he's thinking about me. He hopes I had a good day. A- and so people understand, like, what I've experienced in a matter [00:18:00] of weeks I never got with, with my father, or my old father, I should say, the man I thought was my father.
So to have another man who, who's happy to be my father [00:18:15] reach out to me you know, tells, tells me he cares about me answers my calls, you know. I don't think there's been a time that I've called him, he hasn't picked up. If he, if he didn't pick up, he called me right back two seconds later, [00:18:30] you know?
And that means a lot. So it, it's not to say that he's a perfect man. There's no, there's no perfect man. There's no perfect father. And, you know, learning more about how he grew up and, and his circumstance [00:18:45] and, you know All that doesn't matter to me. He's, he's the perfect father that I need right now.
And I... That's all I can really speak to, is [00:19:00] he's, he's the perfect father that I need right now.
[00:19:02] Stephanie: If I recall correctly from your essay, you even said that he told you he was sorry he didn't know about you.
[00:19:12] Adam: Yeah.
[00:19:14] Stephanie: And that just says so much [00:19:15] about his character, right? 'Cause it's, it's not his fault that your mom was mistaken, but-
[00:19:24] Adam: Yeah
[00:19:25] Stephanie: that, like, uh, what what was that like to hear him acknowledge you like that? [00:19:30]
[00:19:30] Adam: I mean, all of this has been, um, all of this has been, like, a blessing. That's the best way I can kinda put it. That he cares enough. See, for me, like, you know, if anybody actually, [00:19:45] uh, goes to read my book, you know, The Children We Left Behind, I, I, I point out all these problems, but at the end I, I still talk about forgiveness.
And, you know, I forgive him. Like, but I also don't [00:20:00] blame him. It, you know, if I was a young man in that circumstance, you know, would I be like, "No, no, no. I'm definitely fu-" Like, I don't know. And this is also a different era, so I, I have no idea. I have no idea. [00:20:15] But I don't, I'm not angry at him. I'm not, I'm not angry at my mom.
You know, uh, 'cause I, I just don't have room to be angry. The most I've been has been mildly disappointed. And not, not towards him. [00:20:30] And I've talked to my mom about this, you know? But I still love my mother. And I don't, I don't necessarily think she was trying to hide something from me, but I don't know.
I don't know. I don't, I don't know what's in her heart or anything. I could just... All I have [00:20:45] is to go by what she, what she is telling me, and she says she didn't, she didn't know.
[00:20:51] Stephanie: It's such a touching story, and just that whole shift in perspective on who you are, where you come [00:21:00] from, where you belong. Again, it feels very spiritual, and I am curious to talk about that.
But at the same time, I'm bearing in mind that there's the potential for a lot of bitterness here. Like, the fact that you were [00:21:15] raised in such a neglectful way by the man you thought was your father. Like, as an outsider who knows nothing about your family, there's a part of me that's like, "Come on, Adam's mom, y- what were you thinking?"
You know, you got it [00:21:30] so wrong. Like, if only you'd, you know, uh, even stopped to question whether you got it right, like, it could have made such a difference for your child. And so I [00:21:45] just wanna recognize that there is that potential for a lot of bitterness, that, you know, there could be some grieving here, like how different things could have been if you'd been raised by someone who [00:22:00] was prepared to love you and welcome you into the family rather than making you feel unwanted.
So, um, yeah, I mean, is it, is it your faith? Like, what, what helps you take this in such a positive way? [00:22:15]
[00:22:15] Adam: It's my faith. It's the growth that I've experienced over the past 10, 10 or so years. So, so people understand, you know, years ago I had... I didn't realize how bad it was, but I had a lot of social anxiety bouts of depression throughout [00:22:30] most of my life even, uh, suicidal ideation.
And, you know, you struggle with a lot. You know, you, you're dealing with a lot, and it's, it's all in your head, and you end up hyper-focusing on stuff that doesn't [00:22:45] matter. But they just become really big things in your head, and you think everybody sees these things, and it just spirals. There becomes this fixation on the past, and I've virtually given up on that fixation as far [00:23:00] as in a negative way.
I think the hardest thing for a lot of kids who've been through something like what I've been through or, or worse, is that they believe that their treatment was their fault And I had to accept, [00:23:15] like, it's not my fault. My father not loving me is, has nothing to do with me. It's him. And yet a lot of kids bear the, the burden of their parents' failures, and then they carry [00:23:30] that and all it does is weigh them down, and they just fixate on the past.
They fixate on these things and what could've been and how this could've been better and this and that. These are things that we have no control over, that we can't change the past, and it just becomes wasted [00:23:45] emotions. It's wasted if you learn nothing from it, especially. And so what I chose to do was to learn from my father's mistakes.
I learned from my mother's mistakes. But I- I'm [00:24:00] also empathetic. You know, it's harder for me to be empathetic to the man who I thought was my father because I don't know his story. I don't know his reasonings. I was never close enough to even find out as to [00:24:15] why he treated me in this way. But I, I know my mother and I, I know her beginnings and I know what she went through.
Even to, even to the extent that I do know, which I, I feel like I don't know, but even the information I do know, [00:24:30] you know, you can only do so much with the tools you've been given, and my mother's had a difficult life. So I'm, I'm always keeping that in mind. It doesn't mean that my mother gets a get out of jail free pass for, for all her behavior and stuff like that, [00:24:45] you know, and, and her and I have had moments, but I've also acknowledged her, I wasn't the best son.
You know, as an adult, I wasn't the best son, and I was struggling through stuff and I should have done these things. So I ... There ... I guess what I'm getting at [00:25:00] is there's, there's no perfect person in this entire equation. So I just don't have room to to be angry or to be bitter or, or anything like that.
The, the only thing, uh, as hinted at it before, the only [00:25:15] thing that I've ever felt was disappointed. I was disappointed when it wa- my concern wasn't taken seriously. That's ... I don't wanna get too much into this particular part, but that's the most [00:25:30] I'll, I'll say. And, and there's been am- amendments to that and, and apologies to these particular things.
So, so I, I can forgive, uh, 'cause I, I, I don't need to hold onto that stuff. So, you know. I love, I love my father, [00:25:45] I love my mother. I- I think I answered your question. I don't know if ... But yeah.
[00:25:53] Stephanie: Knowing that the man you thought was your father is not, I mean, you've already done a lot of inner work, so to [00:26:00] speak, on not taking that personally, um, not taking that as a reflection of your worth.
Which I can relate to as, you know, someone whose truly biological father never felt [00:26:15] hardly any obligation toward me. I can't deny that at one point he felt a small obligation toward me, but it was woefully inadequate. You know, I, I can relate to that struggle. I'm curious [00:26:30] now that you can look back on all of that distance and coldness that you felt from him, do you think some part of him knew that you weren't his child?
Or, or do you think there was, like, an instinctual [00:26:45] disconnect there perhaps affected by the lack of genetic connection?
[00:26:50] Adam: I've been asked this before and my answer will remain that I don't think that was the case. So this, in, in greater [00:27:00] context, this is a man and I- asked my mom. Never disputed, never questioned, there was never a hint, never said anything to her, and I, I, I believe her in that respect.
He never questioned it. There were never [00:27:15] any rumors never any chatter that I overheard, none of that stuff. Um, this is a man who paid child support, state, right? And, you know, most guys, before someone tries to take your income, if you really think you're not the father, you [00:27:30] get a paternity test. So Didn't decide to do that at least at some point.
Granted, uh I'll, I'll stand corrected with the asterisks. Did they have paternity tests in [00:27:45] 1984? I'm not 100% sure. Maybe, maybe they did. But it's all to say he paid child support he always acknowledged that I was his kid. There was just no, no particular love there. And I've had these [00:28:00] conversations with my sister, who definitely is his child, right?
A- and they were a little bit closer. But they were a little bit closer because my sister forced the issue. She would reach [00:28:15] out to him more, and sh- she was also older, and she spent more time with him when we lived in Detroit. But keep in mind, he was a married man. He was always a married man. Even when we were being conceived, he was married.
So,
[00:28:29] Stephanie: you know- To
[00:28:29] Adam: someone
[00:28:29] Stephanie: else? [00:28:30]
[00:28:30] Adam: Yeah. Someone else. So, you know, we were the other ki- we... Well, he never had children with his wife. I, I later found that out. The irony is that with his wife, he never had kids, but he had [00:28:45] three kids with two different women, so it's, it's a whole mess. But yeah, I don't
[00:28:51] Stephanie: know. I'm also the product of an affair.
[00:28:54] Adam: Well.
[00:28:55] Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, so- I mean, well, you found out you weren't exact- actually, you thought you were the product of an affair. [00:29:00] This is very complicated.
[00:29:02] Adam: It's very complicated.
[00:29:04] Stephanie: Oh
[00:29:04] Adam: my
[00:29:05] Stephanie: goodness.
[00:29:05] Adam: But, you know, it- the- throughout this entire experience, he acted as if we were his children. Now, was he [00:29:15] a good father? No, because he just put no effort into it.
He didn't reach out. And granted, there was a point where we weren't living near him but that was primarily because my mom, one, was trying to get out of Detroit because it was [00:29:30] getting worse it was during, like, the, the crack era, and two she wasn't really getting any support from him, which she's not, because he's a married man.
He has his own duties to his wife, so she's not gonna get the [00:29:45] support that she thinks she, she can get. And so we moved, and we moved a lot to, to try to keep things together. A single mother trying to take care of two kids. But I know if I was in my [00:30:00] father's shoes and, you know, she was leaving, I would put all the, my effort into...
If I can't be there, I'm, I'm communicating with my kids. I'm talking to my, my children's mom. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm showing effort. [00:30:15] And as much grace as I can give my father, I didn't see effort. There's, there's no reason why I'm getting a phone call from you once or twice a year. That's not effort. So, you know, that's the neglect.
You know, [00:30:30] when I was going through the worst of the situations when I was a kid, he wasn't there. He just, he wasn't there emotionally. He wasn't there for a phone call. You know, some money to help us out. Like, he w- he just wasn't there. [00:30:45] And, and so, to kind of go back to what my sister was telling me, she, you know, she basically said, "I got the same father as you."
How I see it in my head is that he never not claimed us. Or I'll speak for me. He never not claimed [00:31:00] me. And even for the child that he had the best of a connection... And keep in mind, there's another child that's out there somewhere that has zero interaction with him. I think this is the nature of [00:31:15] him as a father.
So that's... This is where... Not, I'm not saying with you, but some people have implied, "Oh, he must have known, that's why..." No. If he had known, then [00:31:30] he would treat me differently than my sister and his other daughter, but he didn't. My sister got moderately more because she reached out, because she tried to push onto him.
She had a little bit [00:31:45] more time with him before we moved than I did, and so she had a little bit more. But trust and believe, around the time when I stopped hearing from my father, like completely, so did my sister [00:32:00] So that's the unfortunate part
[00:32:03] Stephanie: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to reason because reason isn't what they need right now.
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Visit ROGDRepair.com and use code SOMETHERAPIST2026 to take half off your first month. So you said that since you found [00:32:45] out who your real father is, he's reached out to you every day.
[00:32:48] Adam: Yeah. Every day either I message him, he messages me, or I call him, um, he calls me. I, I was, I was talking to him briefly today [00:33:00] after work.
So, you know, you know, we're both looking forward to meeting each other, and I don't know how I'm gonna feel you know, presumably giving him a hug for the first time. Like, I don't know how I'll feel.
[00:33:12] Stephanie: Does he know what you do? [00:33:15] Like, about the books that you've written and like your writing, your films?
[00:33:21] Adam: Yes.
I don't know to, like, the greatest of ex- extent. I mean, not to be pretentious, but, you know, he could, he... [00:33:30] I'm sure he could Google me. He probably has and, and seen some stuff. But yeah, I've, I've told him about the books and, and the films that I make. And he's, he's happy for me. He's, he's proud of me.
I think the, the biggest part was, if I'm [00:33:45] being honest, after, like I'm, I'm, I'm excited, I meet my family, my cousins are reaching out to me, all this other stuff, like my next thought is like, "Oh, I don't want them to find anything I wrote." [00:34:00] Like I don't, I don't know where they, where they stand on stuff, and I'm afraid- Oh, like,
[00:34:04] Stephanie: like politics or-
[00:34:06] Adam: Yeah, politics and, you know, cultural stuff.
Uh, you know, I have a lot of stuff written and a lot of opinions, and I don't, I don't want that to supersede [00:34:15] us building a relationship. And the, the good thing is that they're like happy for me. Like they're like, "Go ahead, boy," like, "I'm, I'm happy for you. Great job." Like, they're happy for [00:34:30] me, and they're slowly learning about some of the stuff that I, I've been working on and things like that.
But you know, even with the family that I grew up with, I, I feel weird about having that [00:34:45] stuff get in the forefront of, of my relationship with them. And I, I, I actually created a rule where I said, "I don't talk politics with family anymore." Like I just... Even if it's favorable, even if you agree with me, I just, I'm just not [00:35:00] doing it.
Because I, I had one particular moment where I felt a particular way because it- someone was putting something on me that I didn't say or believe or anything like that, and it just this tribalistic nonsense. And [00:35:15] um, and I was like, you know what? I, I, I want nothing to do with politics and family. Nothing.
And I know that they wanna support me. I know my, my mom wants to support me. Or some... My mom, before I put this rule, my mom would ask me questions 'cause my moth- my mother [00:35:30] wasn't really into politics or anything, and so she was... she would ask me questions and I would give her my honest answer. And so she was more inquisitive, which I'm fine with.
You know, once in a while she would tell me her opinion. But I just had to, [00:35:45] I just had to put a boundary on that. So my fear was like- These people are excited. They hear about the story, they're amazed. Like, they're so happy, and then they're getting to know me, and, uh, they [00:36:00] like me, and then they f- they found an article I wrote Mm-hmm
you know? And just, you know, that's,
[00:36:05] Stephanie: that was my fear. It's, it's sad that, that you're not being paranoid. Like, this is so real like, you know? Yeah. Like, uh, I mean, at [00:36:15] first... I mean, my first thought before you said that was like, of course he would be proud of you, right? And I guess the impression I have of what you're discovering about this side of your family is that they're people of really good character, and that [00:36:30] you had that kind of immediate connection.
Like, they're conscientious, they're respectable, they're loyal. And I guess maybe my, my Pollyanna-ish side, like, wants to believe that, you know, the people of [00:36:45] character see character, people of virtue see virtue, right? And like, there's always something, there's always something you can agree on or something you can validate or praise as long as we're looking through that lens of character and virtue.
But it, it is sad that y- like, [00:37:00] you're right. Like, that is also the world we live in. Yeah ...
[00:37:04] Adam: yeah, how do you, like,
[00:37:07] Stephanie: test the water? Or, I don't know, maybe you don't wanna test the water. I just, I just wanna, like, encourage you, and I just hope it works out [00:37:15] well for you. Like, 'cause it feels like you already found this kind of common ground with your family in terms of character and virtue and, like, the stuff that really matters.
[00:37:24] Adam: So they've found some stuff like my cousins, and they're happy [00:37:30] for me. That's, that's as mo- as much as they've, they've told me. They reach out to me. And almost immediately, you know, I've, I've talked to, uh, my first cousin. Like, she's almost turning into a surrogate mother for [00:37:45] me. You know, she's, she's in her 60s, and we have, we've had some, like, deep conversations.
Various things. Talk ph- on the phone for hours. Same thing with her daughter or one of her daughters. You [00:38:00] know, very, um- Creative, introspective dealing with some of the similar types of pain that I write about in my book. You know, mistreatment and neglect from her [00:38:15] father, and dealing with that and navigating that.
But one thing actually, if, if there's something that kind of brings it all together, is that they're all strong in faith. And that's something that now that I've been a [00:38:30] Christian, I think going on two years now since... Well, I should say two years since my baptism.
[00:38:35] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Adam: It means a lot. It means a lot to me. It sticks out to me, [00:38:45] and I can see I can see how I got here because of, because of the truth coming out. Um You know, I, I indicated in the article that, [00:39:00] you know, this past Father's Day was the hardest Father's Day for me. My son, y- you know, he just turned 21 October 1st.
You know, so he's, he's a man now. Go out and drink if he wants [00:39:15] to, even though he's not, he's not a drinker. He's like his father. We're not, we're not really drinkers. But he, you know, my, my son's grown. He's happy, he's healthy. He has his head on straight, right? He's [00:39:30] prepared for the world, and he knows that he can reach out to his father if he has questions and wants advice.
And he knows I'll always give him an honest answer. Uh, and I won't lie to him. But [00:39:45] I never had that. And so this past Father's Day, I, I felt that. I was in church and, you know, even with me discovering this church earlier this year [00:40:00] literally happened after a prayer. I... If, if you don't mind, I can tell you that story real quick.
You know, I was on a group call with some, some friends of mine and, you know, my, my wife at the time, you know, she was [00:40:15] She's, she was coming to Christ, but she was going at her own pace. And, you know, they're like, "You know, where is she at with this?" And I was like, "You know, she's, she's getting there, you know?
But I'm not trying to force her or anything. Like, this is, is her choice. It's her decision." [00:40:30] And, um, they were like, "Have you found the church yet?" I'm like, "No, I haven't found one yet." And so I left to go walk my dog. And while I was walking the, my dog, I prayed. I prayed that it would help to, to bring [00:40:45] her closer.
And so that evening, my wife comes home from work, and she's like, "You wanna go to the gym?" Said, "Okay, I'll go to the gym." So we have a gym at our apartment complex. Go down there, and there's this woman that's on the [00:41:00] treadmill, and, uh, I go on the treadmill with her. And at the time I was, I was wearing a, a Christian shirt.
A Christian, um, shirt. And so I'm, I'm on the treadmill, and we talk like very briefly, and I'm just [00:41:15] doing the thing on the treadmill. And I end up leaving, uh, before my wife. She stays down there. She's doing w- her thing. So she comes upstairs 30 minutes later, and she's like, "Hey, that woman that was [00:41:30] there," which I might have seen her one time in passing.
Michelle had never seen her before So she's like, "Yeah, that woman that was down there, it was interesting. She came up to me and she was like, 'Hey that shirt that [00:41:45] your husband was wearing, is that a Christian shirt?'" And she's like, "Yeah." She's like, "You know, I have a church, you know, would you like to come?
It's right around the corner, it's, it's right over here." And she's like, "I wanna go." And I was like, [00:42:00] "Okay, we're going." Like literally hours after my prayer. And you know, I walked into the church and we just felt at peace, and felt like we belong there. [00:42:15] And everybody was very welcoming and weren't pushy or anything like that.
They prayed. We all... There's a lot of praying that happens there, and it was the... It was like the, it's the perfect church for us. It's the right tempo. It's not crazy or anything [00:42:30] like that. It's, it's, um, non-denominational. It's not very ritualistic. It's very real and Bible, Bible-believing. Very supportive people who are there.
And you know. So I say [00:42:45] all that to say like, you know, the power of prayer is real, 1,000%. There are no coincidences. Well, um, to, to bring it back to this Father's Day, you know, Michelle went out of town, and so I was at church. [00:43:00] And since day one of being at the church, I'm emotional when I'm there. Like, I can't even help it.
It just comes. And I'm always like on the brink of tears throughout most of the, [00:43:15] of the session. But usually I can kinda keep it down. But like the weight of Father's Day, and then being there by myself, Michelle wasn't there, I was having a really hard time. And I, you know, [00:43:30] I was, I was crying, but like I don't know if people were noticing I was crying.
And then the deacon came up to me. Well, he normally comes up and says, "You know, how are you doing?" And he shakes our hand. And [00:43:45] he's like, "How are you doing?" And I just like started coming down. I started crying like basically like a little kid, is the best way of kinda putting it. I couldn't even verbalize why.
But now I can verbalize why. [00:44:00] And it, and it... I'm thankful that I have God as my father. I'm very thankful for that. I'm thankful to have my son, thankful of being able to help, along with his mother, to raise [00:44:15] him to be a wonderful child. Which by the way, my, my son and my wife ended up being baptized together at this church.
So like, I'm thankful all, for all these things, but I was like, "But I'll never [00:44:30] have that father And it just like, it hit me. That was the thing that like really stuck to me, to I'll never have that father. And so I had to kind of accept [00:44:45] that. Or d- or did I? Because- Weeks later, the Lord revealed that I do have a father.
I do have someone who cares about me. So, that's why I said like there's no coincidences here. [00:45:00] Like, I was pushed to finally find the truth. So I'm not even, I, I'm not even angry. I'm like, "This is exactly who I asked for." I wanted a father, and I got one[00:45:15]
[00:45:15] Stephanie: Wow. Um, Adam, your story of finding your church sounds a lot like us finding our church recently.
[00:45:22] Adam: Oh, you found a new church?
[00:45:23] Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, so it's October now that we're re- recording [00:45:30] this, and this episode will also come out probably also in October, and it was about a year ago that my husband and I became Christians.
We'd been slowly pulled in that direction, and honestly, I've had a lot of people praying for [00:45:45] me since I started doing this work, um, so I think that's part of it. And then I-- Now that I have the vocabulary for it, I honestly see a lot of what I do as, like, a form of intercession. So it was about a year ago that we became Christians [00:46:00] and started looking for a church and church shopped and hopped and stuck with one for a few months and never quite settled in and then had a lot of other ups and downs and life threw us some [00:46:15] curveballs and I was, like, almost gonna give up on it and just kept feeling, like, this inclination, like I wanna go to a church that we've never been to before.
Like, I [00:46:30] just feel like there's something else out there for us. And then one day, like less than two months ago, my husband was like, "I wanna go to this place." I'm not gonna say what it is, but if, if you know me and you wanna know [00:46:45] what church, go ahead and reach out to me, but this is private information.
You know, he, he named a certain place, and so I was like, "Great. We've never been there. Let's try it out." And I had the same reaction you did, like [00:47:00] started crying from my first service. Our first three or four services, I was just crying the whole time. And then when we brought the kids, that's when I stopped crying.
I guess I can hold it together a little bit more around them or something. I don't know. [00:47:15] But, um, 'cause we, we, we have them alternate weekends. And yeah, I realized, and I, I hope that this is helpful for someone to hear. Maybe I'm gonna name something that resonates for somebody, because I realized that I could put my finger [00:47:30] on what had been missing for me, is that what I needed, one thing I needed in a church that I finally found here is emotionally intelligent preaching So that was a big part of it for me.
Like, our preacher [00:47:45] is, our, our pastor is emotionally intelligent, and he's pretty close to my age, our age. You and I are about the same age. And he has a actually very similar gift to the gift that God gave me, except for me, I use that gift in my career, [00:48:00] and I see that God has given him this gift that he uses in preaching.
And it's the way that he uses language, the way that he's able to connect to people's mindsets and explain something from several different angles to make sure that there's something for [00:48:15] everyone, that everyone gets it. You know, like, there... I, I see him giving his gift, and I'm like, "I recognize that," and it lands with me, and it affects my life.
And, like, he's connecting faith [00:48:30] with everyday life and with, like, the things that I actually personally struggle with. And our church also places a really big emphasis on community and a really big emphasis on prayer and, like, also made us feel very welcome. They [00:48:45] have just the right amount of structure.
Like, they're not too ritualistic like you said, but they have the right amount of structure to make sure that new people are welcomed and oriented and given a small group to connect with. And they were so welcoming to our kids who are into tech. They immediately, [00:49:00] like, let our kids help with the, um, sound and video.
Like, and, uh, so I had a very similar experience actually, and I have not yet gotten baptized actually. So you say it was two years ago that you were [00:49:15] baptized and then just ver- very recently that you said your wife and son?
[00:49:18] Adam: My wife and my son were baptized together at the church, and two days, three days later, I found out who my father was [00:49:30] So it was a very, like, emotional week.
[00:49:32] Stephanie: And this is all just this fall, or I guess, like, technically summer, but like
[00:49:38] Adam: Yeah.
[00:49:38] Stephanie: Very recently. Wow. So I know, I know that you're a Christian and, and you were actually the only person at the [00:49:45] Genspect conference to speak about your faith, which I appreciated because I think that amongst, amongst people who come from a liberal background into the whole gender ideology debate, there is oftentimes an effort to [00:50:00] distance themselves from conservatives and from Christians.
There's like, "Oh, we're not, we're not the bad guys. We, we didn't vote Republican until we discovered this issue," and, and, you know, like, there's kind of this defensiveness. Whereas people who come from a conservative and/or religious [00:50:15] background, I think they're coming from a different place culturally.
There's not that same defensiveness about, "We're not the bad people." You know? So I think at a place like the Genspect conference, you can kinda feel that, like, secular, like, "We wanna prove that we're scientific and progressive and [00:50:30] open-minded," and, and then you come on stage, you're like, "Yeah, I'm a Christian."
And I, I know you're not the only one but you were the only one to speak to it, and I appreciated that, um, because I don't think that we need to apologize for our [00:50:45] faith or the values that compel us to vote in a more conservative way. So, um, I knew that you were a Christian, but I don't think I knew that you became a Christian two years ago because I've known you for longer than that actually.
[00:51:00] So, that means that you've become a Christian since I've known you.
[00:51:02] Adam: I think the best way of explaining it is throughout, you know, uh, I think when I was a Entering my teens and [00:51:15] entering into my 20s, you know, I, I would by default call myself a Christian, but was I a Christian? I didn't, I didn't feel it.
I wasn't sure. I felt like I was just saying this just to say it. So it didn't really mean anything to [00:51:30] me, and I really questioned that 'cause I felt like I was lying to people. Then by the time my mid-20s, I think it was probably like 23 or 24, I learned this word agnostic and what it meant. I also learned [00:51:45] about atheism, and I felt like, well, I'm not sure if there's a God, and I feel like to be certain that there is no God is just as certain that there is one, and I'm just...
I'm not there, neither direction. So I told [00:52:00] people what felt comfortable at the time was that I was agnostic. I w- I wasn't sure. I was confused. But I think that also matched my, my life. I was very confused. I was confused about who I was and how to carry myself, how to be a man, and [00:52:15] how to be a father. I was confused about a lot of stuff.
So, you know, my, my coming to Christ is m- is far more supernatural. And, um, and I, I [00:52:30] end up writing about it in my book, but if you want, I c- I can tell you my, my testimony. I'll, I'll try to condense it a little bit. I experienced good and I experienced evil on a supernatural [00:52:45] sense. The first was the evil.
The first was, there was one particular night I was, uh, living at home, and I woke up around 3:00 in the morning. Normally, I sleep with the TV [00:53:00] on, but my TV was off. My room was dark, and I remember opening my eyes. I could see around my room but it was, like, really dark. That was, like, the first thing I, I kind of felt.
And then [00:53:15] I could, it feel like the room felt different. Like, it, it's kind of like quick, like, senses. It's the best way of kind of putting it. And I audibly heard [00:53:30] something say, "Adam." Like, it was near my ear, and I said, "What the fuck was that?" And I jumped up out of my... Like, I'm awake, and I hear something in my ear whisper my name, and I knew it was [00:53:45] evil.
And I turned on the light, and I saw nothing, and I was just freaked out. And I didn't tell anybo- anybody about that, and I didn't know how to process that. You know, I'm coming from, at that moment, [00:54:00] being agnostic, but I, I knew it evil, right? We have the concept of evil as to what that was, and that's the closest thing that I, I knew how to identify.
Like, something's wrong. Like, this does not feel good. [00:54:15] It sounds weird, but at the time, I was dating a girl, a, a woman who was, um-
W- who apparently was, like, sort of clairvoyant, I guess is the best way of kind of putting it. I [00:54:30] found out accidentally. One day I'm at her place, and she's like, "Stop." But she's, like, in the other room. And I'm like, "What's going on? Were you talking to me?" And I could see her, like, hesitating, and she's like, "All right.
I'm gonna tell you [00:54:45] something. I hear stuff from the other side. I've heard this since I was a kid." I was like, "Do you see stuff, too?" She's like, "Oh, no. I would go insane if I saw stuff. But, like, I hear people, like my friend's grandmother. [00:55:00] They try to communicate with me, things like that." And I said, "Okay."
But I believed her. Like, my... She doesn't seem crazy. There's nothing off about her. She seems very intelligent. She has no reason to lie to me. I [00:55:15] just, I believed her. My, my gut said, "I think she's telling me the truth." And then she said to me, "Adam, I know you're not a Christian, but because of that, you're easier to attack.
Before you go to bed, you need to pray." [00:55:30] And I never told her about that situation that happened. I think at that point it happened, like, maybe a month or two prior.
[00:55:38] Stephanie: Is this, like... Are you, like, in your 20s?
[00:55:41] Adam: No, the, I'm in my early 30s at that point.
[00:55:44] Stephanie: Okay. [00:55:45]
[00:55:45] Adam: I'm in my early 30s.
[00:55:46] Stephanie: So this is before you met your wife, Michelle?
[00:55:48] Adam: Yeah, yeah. This is before, yeah. So I thought that was weird, 'cause I never told her about that. And so by th- by the time we had that discussion and she told me that, [00:56:00] I had moved, uh, I was renting a room in this house, and I always felt off. I felt off being there especially at night. I couldn't put my finger on it, and so I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna pray."
So I prayed before I went to [00:56:15] bed, and I remember the first morning waking up, and I was like, "The room feels different." And so I prayed every day for like two weeks. I just felt better, and the room felt different. I felt less [00:56:30] uneasy, like almost like maybe something was watching me or, you know, that, that kind of feeling.
Just felt uneasy. And, uh, I felt more at peace. I believe this was the same or leading into the next year. I think it was [00:56:45] like a couple months later. My grand aunt was in and out of hospice, and she was back home, and my cousin's like, "She doesn't have much longer." So I drove to Massachusetts. By the [00:57:00] time I got there, she was kinda, she was under, like, you know, she's out.
So I s- I s- I was there all day, and then finally that evening she was awake, and all she could do was scream. You know, and [00:57:15] this is a woman, every time I saw her, she was laughing. She, she was smiling every time. This is the first time I saw her in excruciating pain, and she looked lost. Like, she couldn't even [00:57:30] tell who I was.
And that was very traumatic for me, and I was probably with her for, like, 10 minutes. And I told my cousin, "I, I have to go." And so the next morning they called me and told me she passed that evening. She was [00:57:45] like my grandmother. My actual grandmother died when I was very young, so she was like my, my grandmother.
So- Try to talk about it without getting emotional. [00:58:00] So you know, I'm, I'm mourning her loss like she was my grandmother, and my cousin asked me to be the, a pallbearer. I agreed. So, you know, drive to Massachusetts. My, my, uh, cousin is a [00:58:15] pastor, and he's... We're at the church, and he's doing, um, doing the ceremony.
And, um, we leave, and as we're driving to the, to the gravesite, I'm in my car. I drove up by [00:58:30] myself, and I'm like, "I'm just gonna go home." You know, "I'm just gonna cry on my way home, just mourn by myself." Like, I knew 100% I was just gonna do that. So we get to the gravesite, and it seemed very [00:58:45] quick. He said a few words, and then they were like, "All right, Adam, it's your turn."
And I'm like, "Oh, man, here we go." Like, 'cause I was, I was holding back the tears as best I could. I was like, "It's about to all come down. I know it." And as soon as I put [00:59:00] my hand on the casket, all my tears disappeared, and I knew 100% that she was fine. Like, I received a message, "She's okay." And I didn't know, I didn't have the words [00:59:15] for it at the time.
I didn't know what it meant, but I now know it was the Holy Spirit relieving me of my, of my anguish. And quite literally, from the moment of feeling distraught and wanting to [00:59:30] just, like, cry it all out, to just not shedding a tear for the rest of the time. And what ended up happening was, we went back to my family's house, and I stayed, and it was one of the best moments being there with my family, [00:59:45] some of whom I haven't seen in years, and I would have missed all that.
So it was like, it was a gift. So I mean, those, those were significant things because I knew what that was was [01:00:00] good, and I knew what happened before was evil, and those were things, as for someone who's, like, very analytical and trying to make sense of stuff, I know what I felt, and I wasn't wishing this to happen.
[01:00:15] I didn't... Wasn't you know, in, in a particular state of wanting these things. The way I saw it was like, if these things are real, then God is real as well. So writing my first [01:00:30] book, I make references to God because I'm coming from being agnostic. But I didn't specify who. I didn't specify the, the conduct, the, the character of God.
But [01:00:45] everything that's preceded that was me trusting my instinct, which i- is God-given, and going in certain directions and not going in certain directions, and every time I didn't go in that direction, something bad happened over there, or these weren't good [01:01:00] people. But I went towards this direction, and I just listened to my instincts.
Every time I defied my instinct, something didn't work out. And so I just, I just kept doing these things, and I kept running into [01:01:15] Christian after Christian who would pray for me, but I would feel it And they would say stuff to me, and it felt like I would feel it. It, it... People say nice things to you all the time, [01:01:30] and I say, "Oh, thank you," but I don't feel it.
But when they was- when they invoke God, I felt it. It was the first time in my life I ever, like, felt that. And That pushed me closer and closer [01:01:45] to learning more and more about, about Christianity, learning more about God the personhood of God, and everything just started making more sense. When you take God out of the equation, a lot of things don't make sense.
[01:02:00] When you put God in the equation, everything makes sense. Everything. And when you understand God is a person, and that all of this is about relationship, all of the sins that we talk about are about violating our relationships with each [01:02:15] other. You start to realize that that makes the most sense. The reason we're supposed to treat each other with kindness and forgiveness, forgiveness and, you know, we're not supposed to murder, we're not supposed to cheat on our spouses, because that's a [01:02:30] violation of our relationships with each other.
And that's not loving. We're not supposed to lie to each other. That's deceitfulness. That's not loving. Like, everything surrounds the, the concept, the true concept of love, and that's why we're supposed [01:02:45] to be respectful to people, treat people in certain ways. Setting boundaries is loving too.
Like, all these different things. And, and then on top of that, I would see an a- I would see it in [01:03:00] action, and it works. In action it works. And the people who are living chaotically, I, I see them making excuses and lying to themselves and tricking [01:03:15] themselves and, and, and living a life that doesn't quite make sense.
But they really wanna believe these things, and they, they find like one rogue person who backs up what they're saying, and yeah, of course. And they do [01:03:30] everything possible to, to raise the intellect of man and deny the absolute genius and miracles of God. And so I just saw that. I saw every time we put all of our, [01:03:45] all of our heart and might into man, it eventually fell apart, because we're flawed.
But when people put their heart into God, and I watched them live their life, it worked. [01:04:00] So logically speaking, if you see someone, true ... Not, not someone who's, like, holier than thou or anything like that, just someone who's just walking in the light, someone who has God on their mind, someone who's has God in mind when they do [01:04:15] certain things and treats people respect- respectfully, stands for something, not afraid.
Like, people who walk like that with God in mind, they are happier, they are healthier, And then when [01:04:30] I see these other people, they j- they just-- I feel like they're lying to me about how happy they are. I feel like they're putting all their effort, they got all these things, but they're miserable, absolutely miserable.
Th- there's [01:04:45] something missing in their life, and they wanna deny it their entire lives. And I see how they treat people, and I see how they l- have to lie to people to make other people think that they're this and they're that. And I'm just standing on truth, and I'm being honest with people about who I [01:05:00] am.
And it works. It works for me. It works for a lot of people. So I guess, I guess w- that's a lot of, of my, my testimony, is just years of me questioning myself [01:05:15] and questioning these ideas, and then looking at the world around me. Being surrounded by really good people, faithful people praying. You know, being there for, for me in moments that I [01:05:30] didn't know I needed them, but God did.
And I swear by the, the power of prayer. That's why we pray all the time. And just because things don't work out your way doesn't mean it was supposed to be the way that it was supposed to work out. You know, God's plan is not [01:05:45] always the same thing as my plan. And I'm a walking testimony as, like, I'm a quiet kid who was neglected, who kept to himself, and yet I'm on, I'm on television internationally and writing for papers giving my opinions.
I shouldn't be here, [01:06:00] but I am here for a reason, and the number one reason is to glorify God.
[01:06:06] Stephanie: Oh, Adam, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing. So to bring it full circle, your experience of meeting your father, [01:06:15] this, this whole story arc, however far back into the past or far forward in the future it goes what does this experience tell you about God?
[01:06:24] Adam: That He is faithful, and He's always on time. You know, the, the question that [01:06:30] we asked earlier, you know, what if I did have my father? And I think to myself- I wouldn't wanna change anything about my past because it made me who I am today, and I'm happy with [01:06:45] who I am today, and it's made me more appreciative.
Sometimes you lack something, you become more appreciative of these things. And it, and even more so, it helped me to strengthen being a father who's [01:07:00] responsible, and seeing it from my son's perspective as he was growing up. It changed how I discipline him because I thought about me as a child and understanding how that felt when, you know, when the adults said this to me.
[01:07:15] I'm like, "I didn't know." Like, you know, when the adults gave you no, no forgiveness, no grace. Or they didn't talk to you, they just talked at you. Uh, they just barked demands at you, or you forgot something. You know, like, have some grace. You [01:07:30] forget stuff. Like, their brain is nowhere near finished being developed, and we expect them to respond like adults.
So, like, have some grace, and that's how I, I treated my son, not understanding that these, these are, uh, are [01:07:45] Christian concepts, right? But it... These were things that are inherent that I, I just felt. I felt it was right to not scream at my son when he makes a mistake. I felt it was right to not put my hands on my son, right?
I felt it was right [01:08:00] to, to communicate with my son and discipline him by teaching him. We always think discipline means taking out, you know, a belt and beating some child, but discipline means to teach, to discipleship. And I was teaching my son how to become a man as I was [01:08:15] learning how to become a man. I was teaching him how to treat people.
I was teaching him all these, all these lessons, and even more, I was teaching him by having him watch me And I was his living [01:08:30] example. And it... And there's no other, You know, w- I, I can't remember if it was my wife or it was somebody else who said, "You know your son watches you." They didn't mean that figuratively.
They saw my son watching me in moments I didn't realize he [01:08:45] was watching me. You know, he, he's watching my mannerisms, he's watching how I'm conducting myself, you know? He's looking up to me. I'm his example. He trusts me. Like, these are all things [01:09:00] that I don't take for granted, and I think I don't take these things for granted because I, I lacked it.
I didn't have it when I was, when I was, uh, his age or when, when I was a kid. I think I answered your question, but I always forget, [01:09:15] like, I, as... I'm like, I'm kind of all over the place the moment you mention God.
[01:09:19] Stephanie: Well, from an outside perspective, your story, it feels very symbolic, like the... It feels almost biblical, you know?
Like, it feels like it belong- It was, like, one of the parables that didn't [01:09:30] make it into the Bible or something, you know? You have, like, the prodigal son story, and you have the, the talents, and you, you have these, like, parables, right? And, and this one feels symbolic at that [01:09:45] level. Like the story of the son who thought his father didn't care about him, you know?
And then discovered that his true father cared all along, right? And, and you have these [01:10:00] siblings, and you have... I mean, there... It's, it's about identity and belonging and, like, who you really are, right? And, um, and so on that level, like- What does it make me think [01:10:15] of? You know, I'm pretty early on in my Bible study, and it's been very spotty because I, um, made the mistake of trying to read it from the beginning.
Hmm. And really hit a wall with Leviticus. And I've, I've shared [01:10:30] that story several times now, and for anyone who's been following, I still have the same problem. Like, I still have the problem of the behavior [01:10:45] of God in the Old Testament not being very nice to put it mildly. And I still have the problem that every typical Christian response I get to that, there's some problem I [01:11:00] find with it or something I experience as alienating.
And, and I, I even shared this with my church group this week. I shared like, "Here's my problem with the Old Testament. Here's why I hit this wall with Leviticus." Everyone was giving me advice, and I [01:11:15] was just like, "I'm having the same experience I always have when I bring this up. I just feel more and more distant from people."
And- Hmm ... and then actually there's a guy from the Middle East in, in my group, and his perspective was really interesting, um, because he was talking about like the energy in the Middle [01:11:30] East as like a war zone and, and how that like gives context for some of the Old Testament stuff. I'm still stuck but here's, here's the reason I brought that up.
Um, because [01:11:45] of my New Testament reading that I've done, which is much, much more palatable, when I read Luke, specifically Luke 11, it really stuck with me, and I think it's like probably been more than a year now, um, since I was really [01:12:00] struck by what Jesus has to say in Luke about how we should pray and the, the good father discourse as, as the heretic Israel Anderson refers to it, who is the only person who's explained the Old Testament in a way that [01:12:15] makes sense to me, but he's not a Christian.
So anyway my point here being that I was really struck when Jesus explains in Luke 11, people ask him how to pray, and he says the, you know, the Our Father pray, prayer, and then he uses this [01:12:30] analogy of waking up your friend in the middle of the night. And, and he's like, "That's how you should pray," banging on his door.
Like, "No, you need to help me." And I'm like, "Oh, really? We're supposed to be that obnoxious?" And then he [01:12:45] goes on to say, That, you know, it, you-- here are all the things you do for your children, and if you who are evil do give such good gifts to your children, how much better are your Father's gifts for you?
And so the whole [01:13:00] way that Jesus talks about our relationship with our Father in heaven in Luke has really stuck with me, and I feel like there's something in there for me, that there's a reason that it's kind of stuck in my head, and there's maybe even a reason that I'm not progressing in my Bible study, [01:13:15] that I'm not reading anything more.
Maybe I'm just supposed to sit with that for a year. I don't know. But speaking as, you know, a girl whose father, like I said, was very, very minimally invested in my well-being or development, and today has completely passed up [01:13:30] any opportunity to know who I am. As, as someone with that background something about our spiritual inheritance and sort of the, the riches that God wants to bestow on us and the boldness with which we are [01:13:45] supposed to come before Him I think it's not my nature because part of my story is that, you know, having been neglected and deprived of a father really affected me as a young woman in the ways that it typically does for young [01:14:00] women.
You know? Like expecting nothing from men, having very poor boundaries with men allowing myself to be treated very poorly by men. You know, all that until I finally got my shit together and prayed to God for my husband. Before [01:14:15] I became a Christian, I prayed to God for my husband, and I met him, so...
And he's so nice to me. So I think that's, that's something for me. And on this note, just while I'm thinking through this with you, Adam, like I think there's something in that boldness. Like [01:14:30] I, I do believe that God gives each of us different gifts, and- Yeah ... um, and one of the gifts He's given me is boldness.
And, um, [01:14:45] thank God for that because there are a lot of moments where I would've been crushed without it. Like life has not always been kind to me, and so there's a certain Kind of daring that [01:15:00] I think has saved me, even if it's also gotten me into trouble at the same time. And, um, and I think it's a quality-- I think here's, here's the reason I wanna say this right now, because it's been on my mind, and here we are talking about faith together, and I just wanted to take this opportunity 'cause [01:15:15] I've been thinking, how do I convey this to my listeners?
Because sometimes I rub people the wrong way. Um, and sometimes it's my boldness that rubs people the wrong way. And so I wanna say that to, to listeners. If, if you are one of those people who gets rubbed the wrong way by my boldness, that, that you just hear a little [01:15:30] bit from my perspective about where that comes from, that I do think it was a God-given gift that has protected me.
And, and when I think about again, Luke 11 and, well, all of Luke, but the good father discourse, like I think there's something in there. [01:15:45] There's a message about appearing boldly before God as we ask for what we want, not... And I think that's not, it's not hubris. And, and I guess the reason I'm tying it into what you're saying is because it's like this whole time you thought you [01:16:00] were the son of this neglectful kind of loser, right?
And it turns out like you were the son of a metaphorical king, right? You are the son of the king, right? But y- you know, in, in your earthly father experience, there's this like [01:16:15] surprise spiritual inheritance of, of the glory of a family that's wealthy in their values, wealthy in spirit. And, um, and I just, I connect to that.
I feel like there's, there's something so archetypal in that story [01:16:30] and, and I'm still like trying to like pull out like what it is and how it's landing for me. But, uh, but I guess I thank God for, um, for my gift of boldness. And I wanna say this to my listeners [01:16:45] who are put off by it . And maybe that's like, maybe that's not fair, right?
Maybe that's taking your story and making it about me to justify some bad habit. But, um, I don't think so. I think I know what my bad habits are. Like I do have [01:17:00] them . Like I'm not saying I'm perfect. I just think that my boldness isn't necessarily like... I think some people get put off by it because of like this idea of what humility is supposed to be.
And [01:17:15] do you know what I'm saying, Adam? I'm like, I'm struggling to like make this make sense.
[01:17:20] Adam: I think I understand what you're saying. You're-- Are you talking about boldness as far as being truthful?
[01:17:26] Stephanie: Maybe that's it.
[01:17:27] Adam: Because [01:17:30] I find that a lot of people say they want the truth, but they want it as long as it's comfortable.
You know, we all want the truth if we know that we look great and, uh, we, we got the best this and the best grades and, [01:17:45] right? We all like the truth when it sounds nice. But we don't like the truth when we're imperfect, when we did something wrong. And it's even harder telling somebody else the truth when they don't wanna hear it [01:18:00] either.
So yeah, it, it does take some boldness to just say, say what it is. You don't have to be rude. I think you can be honest with people and not be rude. It's... A lot of times it's how you say, it's not what you say. And that's where I [01:18:15] think a lot of people get stuff wrong. "I'm just, I'm just saying it how it is."
Yeah, but you're being kind of a jerk about it. Doesn't sound very loving at all. It sounds like you're weaponizing the truth against someone. Yeah. You're trying to
[01:18:26] Stephanie: hurt them. And that stuff bothers me, and I don't think I'm, I don't [01:18:30] think- Yeah ... I'm, like, that kind of person who is like, "Well, I'm just being honest, so therefore that's my excuse to, like, speak crudely."
Like, I, I don't think that I do that. Mm-hmm. But I think, like, the people who, like, [01:18:45] like, if a person has been, let's say, thoughtful and considerate and nuanced in how they word something, but there's also, like, boldness and truth and, and others are offended by it, I think it's only because they don't know how loved they are.[01:19:00]
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like, half the picture is missing.
[01:19:04] Adam: I tell people all the time one, I ask them, "Do you wanna know what I think?" 'Cause you can't get mad at me- Yeah ... if you say yes, so. [01:19:15] T- tip- tip for people, if you wanna tell someone the truth- Yeah ... ask them for permission. And it actually works.
They don't get mad because they gave you permission. I told them, "You can say no."
[01:19:26] Stephanie: Totally.
[01:19:29] Adam: I do that with my wife [01:19:30] And, but I also tell people that, you know, I think we've remixed truth as being like Sometimes hurtful, [01:19:45] sometimes this, sometimes necessary, sometimes... And I'm like, "No." And then we have these people who are like, "Well, no, no, no, I need to lie to protect them."
Like, that's how we end up with family secrets and, and things of this nature because, "No, no, [01:20:00] no, if, if I tell them the truth, then it's really gonna disrupt them." Well, well, your lie is gonna hurt even more And let them know the truth so they can work through it rather than having them live in a lie and then one [01:20:15] day the truth comes out, not because you said something, but they found out somewhere else.
And now you have zero control. Now they think that you were hiding something from them, because they would be right, you were hiding something from them. Like, the, the [01:20:30] concept of family secrets - Yeah ... a lot of it, and I, I hear it all the time, the concept of family secrets is that I'm doing this, I'm lying to you to protect you.
[01:20:40] Stephanie: Yeah. Which is infantilizing. When you're...
[01:20:43] Adam: Yes. [01:20:45] But you're- But, you know- ... you're also robbing me of a choice.
[01:20:48] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
[01:20:49] Adam: You're robbing me of
[01:20:50] Stephanie: a decision to make. Yeah, you're making that decision for me.
[01:20:52] Adam: Right.
[01:20:52] Stephanie: Do you know what I think? Because I do so much family coaching and I encounter this a lot, and [01:21:00] I, my philosophy on this is that- Oftentimes it's not that you need to hide the truth, it's that there's even more truth that you need to learn how to articulate [01:21:15] as well.
Like yeah, you're afraid that if you share this one piece of truth, it's gonna hurt someone, right? The solution isn't to hide the truth, it's to share all the other contextual truth that balances that truth. [01:21:30] Like, like my husband makes this mistake, right? And, and that man loves me, and he has an excellent heart, so it's not, it's not an ethical issue.
It's that he's trying to protect me, and it's always like, "Oh, well, she had a rough day. Oh, she's sick. Oh, there's-- the, the kids [01:21:45] are stressing her out," or, "She had a hard day at work." Like he, he's always like, "Oh, I shouldn't tell her now. It's not a good time. I don't wanna add to her burden." That's like how he thinks, right?
And so we have this conversation a lot and, um, and I'm like, "No, you just [01:22:00] need to tell me the whole truth. Just you know, start with, 'Hey, I'm gonna give it to you straight. Here's the worst part.'" 'Cause I, I have anxiety, you know? So... And, and I don't mean that in like some [01:22:15] excuse-making kinda way. I just mean if, if you know someone in your life who tends to be anxious, just know that the moment that they sense that you're about to tell them something important, their heart is racing, and there's-- you know, their stomach is dropping until [01:22:30] you spit it out, right?
And so I tell my husband, "Just spit it out first. Tell me the, tell me the worst part without any hemming and hawing, without trying to give me any context or soften the blows, 'cause I need to know," right? "Just tell me that, and then tell me [01:22:45] whatever context is going to help." Right? So tell me, "And here's what I'm doing to take care of it," or, and, you know, whatever reassurance you have to offer after telling me the truth.
That's, [01:23:00] that's how it plays out in our home. But I, I see so many different versions of this in the families that I work with where, um- You know, parents, for example, trans-identified youth who think that telling their kids the truth means sending them study [01:23:15] and article after study and article, and that's not necessarily telling them the truth.
Sometimes telling them the truth is learning how to be emotionally honest, right? The truth of the situation is that I really wanna [01:23:30] send you another study or article because I'm worried sick about you, and I really want you to understand that you're on a really dangerous and destructive path, and, and that I want you to care about the people who were harmed by this, and that's why I wanna send you this stuff.
[01:23:45] But a part of me knows that if I send you that article right now, it's only gonna make you look at me through an even more cynical lens, and it's only gonna strengthen your resolve to turn, tune out the information that I'm sending you, and that I, I recognize [01:24:00] that this is backfiring, and I feel helpless, and I don't know what to do, and I wanna be able to have a conversation with you about where you're going and what you're doing and what your future holds, and I'm on eggshells.
Like, tell them the whole truth. You know, sometimes [01:24:15] it's about articulating the whole truth, the emotional truth, the interpersonal truth. It's not that you need to lie. It's not that you need to withhold the truth. It's that the definition of truth needs to be expanded to include emotional and relational reality.
[01:24:28] Adam: I agree. I [01:24:30] agree. You have to lean on truth. I've always felt that way, especially when dealing with my son. Which is why, like I said before, you know, our relationship was predicated on, "Tell me the truth," s- since he was a little [01:24:45] kid. "You're gonna make mistakes. I don't care about that." Right? "If you mess up, just tell me the truth so we can work it out."
Right? "Just don't lie to me. That's it. Don't lie to me. If I ask you a question, tell [01:25:00] me the truth. I'm not gonna change how I feel about you or anything like that. Let's work this out together." And for the most part, he's, he's been honest. If I call him out on something, he'll tell me the truth. [01:25:15] There's only one time I've ever been really upset with him And he, and he saw, and I made it very clear, I'm pissed off.
And I was probably pissed off at him for a g- good couple weeks, [01:25:30] and I knew I made him cry because he disappointed his father. But he needed to understand, like, this is what happens when you lie to people. Like, don't lie to me. 'Cause he didn't have to lie to me, and I pointed that out to him. And [01:25:45] it was something revolving around school that he, he hid and he didn't have to.
I said, "You could've sought for help. You... We could've, we could've taken care of this. It's nothing to feel ashamed about." So you know, it, it's, it's stuff like that [01:26:00] where, you know, I'm... Years ago, I would say the old Adam would've been afraid to tell his spouse the truth And would likely have just [01:26:15] dealt with it, dealt with it, dealt with it, and then maybe one day it comes out.
But it's not in a loving way. It's, it's frustrated and pissed off if it comes out at all. [01:26:30] With my wife, I am very blunt with her about how I feel and, you know, what she's doing and, and things like that. But I- not in a, like I'm trying to [01:26:45] tear her down way, 'cause she knows that I think she's amazing. But if I'm criticizing her and I'm telling her the truth, I'm telling you the truth 'cause I care.
I love you, right? If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't talk to you about stuff. But I'm trying to be loving [01:27:00] with you, and I'm trying to, to highlight these things. So, like, the, the old, um, you know, "Do I look good in this?" "Guys, just say she does." No. Why am I... I'm not gonna lie to my wife if I don't... And she knows.
She's like, "Do I look good in this?" I'm like, [01:27:15] "Hmm." And she's like, "Nope, you hesitated. I don't look good in it." And I'll be like, "Now this one I like." Right? We're, we're honest with each other. I got upset at her. She, she threw out these, these pairs of pants, [01:27:30] and I was like, "Why'd you throw them out?" She's like, "Well, honestly, I don't think they look good on you."
I was like, "Wait a minute. We've been together for years." "And you let me wear those pants and they don't look good on me? I trust you more than I trust me about what looks [01:27:45] good on me. Like, you need to s- you need to be honest with me. Don't, don't leave that out." Don't just like, "Well, I'm not gonna say anything 'cause it..."
No, no, no. If I look... If they look terrible with me, like, I also represent you, so I'm going around here looking- Mm-hmm ... l- looking weird in these [01:28:00] ugly pants. Like, why, why would you let me do that? Like, just tell me the truth. And even if I don't like it at the moment, which has happened, like, I, I sit on it and I think about it, and I'm like, "She's right."
You know? And same thing with her. [01:28:15] I've said stuff to her, and she didn't really wanna hear, but she sat on it and, you know, next morning we talk about it some more and she's like, "You're right." You know? So, I think that's, that's the nature of a, of a healthy relationship. You're not, you're not gonna see eye to eye in [01:28:30] everything 100% of the time in, in every single moment.
Sometimes you need time to kind of take it in. But I think it's good to have the reassurance from your partner, like, "It's okay to tell me the truth." [01:28:45] 'Cause there's so many relationships that are predicated on lies and hiding stuff, and then all of a sudden you're living like roommates in two separate lives, and you don't, you don't even talk to each other anymore because telling the truth just sounds like such a burden.
[01:28:59] Stephanie: [01:29:00] Faith affects our perception of these things because it's like, if you share in our Christian faith, then you have a belief that the truth always comes out eventually, right? Or, like, there's at least... You know, God can't be deceived.
[01:29:14] Adam: You can lie to [01:29:15] the world, but you can't lie to Him, so. You know, speaking...
I, I will say one, one quick thing. You know, when it comes to relationships and, and telling the truth and people's splitting apart I heard someone say [01:29:30] one time talking about, like, uh, it might have been some, like, relationship coach kind of thing, and the guy said, "I wanna divorce my wife." He's like, "Why do you wanna divorce your wife?"
"Uh, we don't love each other." He's like, "I don't love her anymore." [01:29:45] He's like, "Then love her." He's like, "No, you don't understand. I, I don't, I don't love her anymore. That's why I'm divorcing her." It's like, "Then go love your wife." Like, love her in action. Do, do these things that are lovingly, and [01:30:00] that will restore your relationship, and we stop doing these things that are lovingly.
And I think truth is part of that. We stop telling the truth to our partner. We start hiding things. You know, I, I've, I have a friend who's going through something right now, separation, and it's just filled with [01:30:15] lies, just filled with lies that were placed upon her. And, and that's not lovingly whatsoever.
So I, I think truth is way more important in a relationship than people, people give it credit for.
[01:30:29] Stephanie: Feels like, [01:30:30] um, I don't know, I find a lot of comfort in the Christian worldview on these matters. I think it's part of what drew me in because- I [01:30:45] mean, the Christian worldview is just such a relief, right?
It's like there's, there's one word, it's a very short word. It's, it's three letters, one syllable, and it describes what [01:31:00] everyone's problem is, right? It's sin. It's a very simple concept. You look at a worldview without that Christian lens, and they're always trying to pin evil on something, and it can get very complicated, right?
Whether it's like, you know, it's capitalism, it's [01:31:15] communism, it's, it's this or that race, it's this or that political structure, it's this or that. Like, you know, there's always a scapegoat. There's always, "If we could eradicate this or that from the world then, then we'd live in a [01:31:30] utopia," right? And they...
And all of these models fall short, and anybody who does any, like, critical thinking or historical or economic analysis can see where the problem with that is. Is that Thomas Sowell right behind you?
[01:31:43] Adam: Yes.
[01:31:44] Stephanie: [01:31:45] Okay. Yeah, like Thomas Sowell, right? Like his, like I haven't even read a single book of his, but like, you know, he has like some famous quotes about like, what is it?
"There are no solutions, only trade-offs." Like- Mm-hmm ... you know, and that concept of like road to hell is paved with the best [01:32:00] intentions, right? Like every way of looking at how do we fix the problem of badness, you know? Whether, you know... And even like the environmental activist worldview that characterized my young life, right?
It's [01:32:15] like, oh, like man-made activity is the problem, and it's just we should all go back to like being total primitivists. I don't know. Like, you know, and no matter what, you will always... Like you, you cannot engineer a solution, [01:32:30] and sometimes the attempts at engineering a solution end up worse than the original problem, as we see with like communist revolutions and stuff like that.
[01:32:38] Adam: Yeah ...
[01:32:38] Stephanie: but with the Christian lens, it's like, no, the problem, the problem that you're talking about, it's called sin, right? And like [01:32:45] it's in all of us. It's in the air that we breathe. It's like, it's, it's just pervading the world that we're in, and it has countless ripple effects, and like the chain of causality is so much more complex [01:33:00] than anything that any one of us can calculate.
And good news, you don't have to, right? You don't have to like have some genius brain that can calculate the entire causal chain in order to [01:33:15] name the problem, recognize that it's within and without. And that you'll, yeah, you'll never be good enough. Like no offense, you're just not that great, and like you [01:33:30] can't be that much better than the world that you live in.
Like that's like saying that a fish swimming in a polluted sea can be like free of mercury. It's just not gonna happen. Like that fish is gonna have some mercury in it, sorry. Like you're human in the [01:33:45] world, so you're gonna have sin. But there's, there's good news. There's, there's a savior who can make up the difference.
And that thing that you're looking for If you struggle with guilt or blame, like if you go, [01:34:00] if you are like so many of us and you vacillate between pointing the finger inward and pointing the finger outward, like if that's your problem, which is very, many of us experience that you know, there, there's a solution to that too.
And, and you don't, you don't [01:34:15] have to be perfect and neither does anyone else. And there's forgiveness, right? But, uh, but to receive that forgiveness you, you know, you just, you gotta admit what the problem is and, and who came to help you. And I find that [01:34:30] very comforting and I don't know, I don't know how we get by without it because I think the shame and blame can just be so much, right?
Or like, you know, I've been talking about my mom a [01:34:45] lot on this podcast lately and I know she struggles with a lot of guilt and she's not a Christian and she, um, is looking to me for forgiveness in a way that is so much bigger than my ability because like I think really the forgiveness that she's [01:35:00] looking for is from God.
Like I've tried to say like, "I've really done my best to forgive you, Mom. It would really help me in my forgiveness if you could like accept and recognize the forgiveness that has been offered." 'Cause sometimes it doesn't feel like she's registered. So it's like a, it's [01:35:15] just a lot of like work to like continuously forgive.
Yeah, I don't, I don't know how people get by without it 'cause it seems like no matter what you struggle with guilt and you struggle with hatred or anger or frustration at the problem with [01:35:30] everyone else.
[01:35:31] Adam: I mean, the struggle is real. I think that s- similar to what I was talking about before, y- you take God out of the equation, life becomes far more unforgiving and [01:35:45] complex.
And the solutions don't - they're often band-aids to a problem and they leave you feeling empty 'cause cut out the most important [01:36:00] part. You know, I feel like a lot of people move around this world responding to pain. Sometimes it's pain that they experience and sometimes it's pain that they're avoiding.
But they're responding to pain [01:36:15] and they haven't let go of it. You know, so whether it's even me, you know, I want to be a better father because I'm, I'm responding to [01:36:30] pain And so I almost feel like it's kind of normal, but sometimes people, people are angry at God, and I think that that anger is [01:36:45] misplaced.
And you, you deal with the, if God's real, then why would he let, why would he let this happen? Why would he let this bad thing happen But only saying that there's, there's good and [01:37:00] but there's no evil in a world where there's clearly evil, and then making him the author of both, or responsible for both is also misplaced.
And I think that's what happens frequently. [01:37:15] You know, a bad thing happens, someone praises, praises God for a blessing. A bad thing happens, and they're like, "Well, if God's so great, why didn't he stop this bullet from hitting this child in a drive-by?" [01:37:30] It's I, I feel like these aren't, these aren't inquisitive questions.
These are people who are angry at their father. 'Cause I can give them an answer as far as free [01:37:45] will. I can give them a theological answer. And, and I've, I've had this happen recently, where you, you s- in a good faith conversation, I can understand someone who [01:38:00] questions, and we can have a theological open-minded discussion, and maybe they hear what I'm having to say, and then there's a little bit of back and forth.
But then there are people who just throw out rapid-fire questions, who [01:38:15] expect no answer and don't care what the answer is to them, and they often ask those rapid-fire questions to people who are ill-equipped to answer those questions. And so what they end up doing is the equivalent of [01:38:30] asking me about physics and then saying, "Well, because Adam can't answer my question about physics, physics isn't real."
It's like, no, I'm not equipped to answer your question about physics, but clearly physics is [01:38:45] real. Why don't you talk to a physicist who can answer those questions? And so they, that is often what ends up happening. But when they do talk to that physicist and, you know, an equivalent in a, in a religious state, [01:39:00] they get way more answers than they ever thought could even exist.
And what they don't understand is, similar to politics, the thing that ... the reason why you wouldn't vote for X party is not the reason why someone would vote for [01:39:15] that party, and we always confuse those things. I would never vote ... let's say if if I was Republican, I would never vote Democrat because they wanna abort babies, right?
But the reason why my neighbor is [01:39:30] voting Democrat isn't necessarily because of abortion. Like, their primary thing is probably Medicare for All. Let's just make something up. But we always presume the worst reason and our reason as being the same reason for someone else. In the [01:39:45] same kind of, like, for, for faith, we presume that if I'm coming from an atheist standpoint and this believer can't answer my questions, that there's [01:40:00] something wrong with them But for that person who believes, that's not the reason why.
Your questions aren't the reason why that they're a believer. They're a believer for a multitude of reasons, [01:40:15] and they fill in the gaps and presumptions like, "Oh, they're just being brainwashed," or, "It's because of this," or, "It's because of that." And so they never actually listen as to why this person comes to faith.
In the same way, [01:40:30] when I left the Democratic Party, they don't ask, "Hey, why are people leaving the Democratic Party?" They fill in. "You're leaving because you're this. You're leaving because you're that." My friends, or supposed friends, [01:40:45] who abandoned me didn't ask me my objections. They knew I was a Democrat.
We met because of political bases. And for some reason, I said, "I... This, this is a red line, and I, I don't agree with it." And they didn't ask me [01:41:00] why. They just abandoned me and, and threw names at me and, you know, did all this other stuff I feel it's all very similar, where it's about the ego of the person and it's not [01:41:15] about actually being curious.
A curious person would ask me why I left the Democratic Party and became an independent. A curious person would ask me, "Hey, Adam, how'd you go from being an agnostic to a believer?" That's what a curious person would [01:41:30] do. A curious person doesn't say, "Well, if God is real and God is so supposedly lovingly, how come there's a starving baby in Africa and he's not feeding them?"
That's not what someone who's inquisitive does. [01:41:45] That's someone who is angry and who is filling in their anger, filling in their disappointment, and pointing all blame towards God because they want to. And usually what I end up finding is that [01:42:00] person Ha- it struggles, and I'm empathetic often to that person struggles to understand the concept of God because They struggle to, to feel love within [01:42:15] their, their own life.
They- when we talk about God our Father, like father is a relationship status. It, it's a, it's a marker. And imagine growing up in a life where you didn't have a father, [01:42:30] and you can imagine someone saying, "Father doesn't mean much of anything to me." Right? "And I'm supposed to call God my Father? Well, he
Father to me is an absentee man. [01:42:45] God must be absentee too." And so it's, it's often this pain that is put onto, and this pain and blame that's put onto God, and not curiosity. I'm, I'm far more in favor of someone who [01:43:00] is curious, questioning which by the way, part of the reason why I believe Christianity is the truth, because it's one of the very, in my opinion, it's the only religion where you can outwardly question it [01:43:15] You can outwardly question it and you're not barred from, no one's trying to cut your head off and kill you because you left the faith or anything like that.
Protestantism, it's [01:43:30] not a thing. Now, certain people are talking about historically, institutions and Christ are not the same thing. So I'll just put that out there. But institutional, institution-less, [01:43:45] if we're talking scripturally speaking In the Gospels, even his disciples question Jesus Christ. Even though the man is you know, bringing sight to the blind, healing the sick, they're [01:44:00] watching perform miracles daily, even they questioned if he was who he said he was And he still knew that they were going to question, and he still gave them [01:44:15] grace, and that is what it's all about.
You still give them grace. So it's part of our nature to question these things. God allows these questions. People question God all the time. I question God, and yet he was still there for me [01:44:30] even when I wasn't necessarily calling for him. So I think that's, that's my, that's my rant and testimony.
[01:44:38] Stephanie: That's nice.
I have one little thought to add to that, which is it's a not very well-formed thought, but just something [01:44:45] that's been on my mind recently, was that sometimes in parenting teenagers, you need to And this is not advice for everyone. Please, like, know your own child, right? But sometimes [01:45:00] it's wise to be a little stricter than you actually think is appropriate, just to give them the sense that they fought you and won some freedom.
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, because the adolescent needs the [01:45:15] power struggle, they need the friction, they need to negotiate with you, and sometimes they need to win. And a big part of what you need to do as a parent of an adolescent is to behave in such a way that they have opportunities to negotiate and [01:45:30] sometimes face frustration and disappointment, and sometimes win and, and find victory and learn what works.
And with you, they need to know what works with you and, and what works with you should work in reality, right? 'Cause you are the [01:45:45] training ground for reality. So unfortunately, in my parent coaching work, I often get parents who have unintentionally taught their kids that doing things like threatening harm to yourself and other people wins you what you want, [01:46:00] and that's a really bad cycle, obviously, to end up in.
And then they come to me for help, and we've gotta-- it's like defusing a bomb, figuring out how to get them out of that situation, right? But, but you have to show them through your actions, your responses to them, what's gonna work to [01:46:15] get them what they want. In other words, if they can be respectful and make a good point, make a good case in a way that you accept and approve of, or offer a fair compromise or offer to work for something, then you [01:46:30] wanna let them win you over on that, right?
And so I think it depends on the parent-child relationship. But, you know, in our home, sometimes there are things where we're a little stricter just to give them that friction. Not, not strict in a mean way, [01:46:45] but just so that they can... That impulse to persuade or negotiate, if done correctly, we can say, "Oh, you know what?
You won." Right? And, like, because we want them to have that victory. So I've just been thinking about that lately and [01:47:00] and the, you know, bec- And, and when I say that, I mean, like, the thing that they won The thing that they feel like they've achieved by convincing you appropriately through good communication skills or through offering to work for what they want or whatever it is, [01:47:15] like, that was part of your plan all along.
You didn't know exactly how it was gonna go, but you were actually okay with it. You just wanted to put the right amount of speed bumps in their way to make sure that they were developing the skills in the process and that you were strengthening your relationship in the [01:47:30] process. And that's gonna work for some kids, it's not gonna work for others, right?
And, and sometimes I get parents where there just wasn't enough friction. Like, the kid didn't have a pushy enough personality, and so they didn't get to like grow through those experiences. And, [01:47:45] and the reason I'm saying this is because it's been on my mind lately, and I've just been wondering if there's anything about our relationship with God that is like this.
And I don't know. It's just an open question.
[01:47:58] Adam: I think there is the [01:48:00] expectation that We are going to mess up, which is why we're not commanded to be perfect, because the whole point is that we're not perfect. We're commanded to [01:48:15] repent and to lean on God and, and so on and so on. And you would only say these things to someone who's going to mess up.
It's the same way that I talk to my son. You're gonna mess up. I mess up. We all [01:48:30] mess up. You're gonna mess up. It's okay. It's how you rebound from it. It's what you do from here. It's not lying. It's not cheating and stealing, right, to get what you want. It's working hard. It's, it's doing these things.
It's, it's [01:48:45] apologizing, right? It's all these things you're gonna have to do. Why? Because you're not perfect. And I think God knows that we're not perfect. Well, obviously God knows that we're not perfect, 'cause literally all the things that ... If, if we were [01:49:00] perfect, there's no need for grace. If we were perfect, there's no need for Jesus dying on the cross, right?
But he knows that we're not perfect. He knows that we're sinful. It's part of our flesh. It's what we're going to do. And, and he [01:49:15] knows that we struggle with it, so even good Christians who try their best are gonna mess up. They're gonna mess up somewhere, and because they can't be perfect. But it's about repenting.
It's about striving towards [01:49:30] something. Jesus is the North Star as far as our behavior and conduct. And by the way, I think the reason why I meant to bring this up before. I think the reason why you struggle with the Old Testament and New Testament ... The New Testament [01:49:45] is far more personable especially the Gospels, because you get to see the conduct of Jesus Christ.
And the way I kind of see it in my head, not a theologian by any means, but the [01:50:00] way I see it in my head is that you know, Jews believe in the Old Testament and, and Jews follow the Old Testament from a law standpoint. It's very legalistic, and I don't think you get to see the [01:50:15] full ... I don't think you get to see the full conduct in the, in the translation into, how do I take these laws and perform in human form?
I think the coming of Christ [01:50:30] is that example. So it's one thing to s- for someone to like, they give you a list of 20 things that you're supposed to do, right? Sounds good on a list. But like, what if I'm in this circumstance? [01:50:45] Well, what if this, like, there's so many different scenarios that could happen that put these things into question.
Like, it... How do I as a human being take this list of rules and interpret it and perform it so that I [01:51:00] still please God? And that's where Jesus Christ, in my opinion, comes in to play as well, because he is sinless. He embodies what we strive for but we'll never [01:51:15] reach, and that's okay. And so if y- it feels far more personal when you're reading a story.
[01:51:22] Stephanie: I do just have to say, for me, it's not the law, so to speak, it's the actions attributed to God in the Old Testament where God [01:51:30] is, like, murderous. And it's, it's how-- It's like my struggle, and I, I'm sure, like, I wanna keep talking to you, but I'm aware that I am keeping you from dinner. Like, it's 8:00 where you are.[01:51:45]
Um, but um, it's just, it's a good conversation. I appreciate, I appreciate you, Adam. You know, my problem is like, I'm like, I get that the Bible is... Like, of course, there are [01:52:00] things that God's gonna understand that we're not. Like, that is very easy for me to accept as a premise, right? So I don't need to understand what God was thinking behind everything.
My, my issue is that if the Bible is specifically what God wants us to know about [01:52:15] himself- Then why does it depict someone so, not just punitive for breaking a law, but they're j- it feels like just very, like violent and y- you know, [01:52:30] like there's, there's a lot of actions early in the Old Testament that are like, like it, it's not...
I guess like here's the wa- the ma- the way that I distinguish it, and this is just my current like working terminology, is Christianity has an oral tradition and it [01:52:45] has a Bible. And sometimes, like the issue was, the issues that I ran into reading the Bible are in conflict to me with the oral tradition, [01:53:00] which has certain narratives that make sense intuitively to me.
Like when I hear the oral tradition of Christianity, when I hear certain things, it makes sense to me. It's just when I do the reading of like, God did this and God did that, and God commanded this and God commanded that, and then it's all like rape and [01:53:15] murder and like, like all of, like that's where the oral tradition of Christianity comes in and says, "Well, you see it's just that the people were so, so, so bad, and this was actually God's like, He was patient with them, [01:53:30] and then, and he, and then like He eventually had to lay down the law."
But like it just doesn't read in a way that makes that clear. Like it's the oral tradition that puts that spin on it. And but it's the, in the reading you're like, "What the?" You know what [01:53:45] I... That's the issue that I'm having. So like the concept of the law, I'm like I, I get that philosophically, like when people talk about it, again, in the narrative tradition.
But I'm sure you have things to say to that, but I'm also aware that I am keeping you from dinner.
[01:53:58] Adam: No, we don't, we don't have to dive into [01:54:00] Old Testament, New Testament. I just wanted to throw that sentence in.
[01:54:05] Stephanie: No, I, I appreciate it and, um, yeah, I, I definitely really appreciated the spiritual conversation here today.
I should probably let you get back to your wife and, um, [01:54:15] recap. Uh, we didn't even get to talk about your documentaries. But we'll just, we'll just mention that they exist. So America's Moms and The Illegal Highways. The Illegal Highways these are coming soon
[01:54:28] Adam: Yes, uh, [01:54:30] likely before the end of the year
[01:54:32] Stephanie: Okay, very exciting.
And where can people find you?
[01:54:36] Adam: Uh, they can check out my Substack, adambcoleman.substack.com. They can check out more of the films, uh, by going to wrongspeakfilms.com. You know, [01:54:45] I've been a little bit quiet on social media for various reasons, but I'm trying to get more into film. So definitely check out Wrong Speak Films for updates.
[01:54:54] Stephanie: Well, thank you so much for coming back, Adam. It's really been a pleasure speaking with you, and, um, thank you for your beautiful, [01:55:00] heartfelt story. I'm did not, did not tear up this... But I was like, I was on the verge, but I ha- I was aware of how much makeup I had on my face, so I- ... successfully held back the tears.
But, uh, yeah, always, uh, very touching getting to speak with you. You're such an earnest and [01:55:15] sincere person, so I really appreciate you.
[01:55:17] Adam: Thank you.
[01:55:17] Stephanie: And until next time.
[01:55:19] Adam: All right.
[01:55:21] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, [01:55:30] review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice.
And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half [01:55:45] Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair.
Any resource you heard [01:56:00] mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, [01:56:15] drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:56:30] [01:56:45] world."