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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Today's episode is on something that's a little bit more challenging to talk about.
And it depends on the situation that
you the listener are going through.
But we are going to talk about co-parenting, single parenting, divorce, conflict within a family between
Parents because first of all we've had some questions about it and so we've had some emails and that was what originally started added this one to our
Agenda.
But also we feel like it's just it would be helpful.
And not even just for people who are separated or anything like that or
parenting on their own.
I think some of the things that we're going to talk about today might actually be helpful for all parents to think about.
I agree.
So to start, let's just
get right to the heart of it.
When parents first walk into your office and are in the midst of a separation, what is the single biggest fear they have about their kids, because that's why they're typically seeing you
What's the worry that tends to keep them up at night?
It's if we separate, how will that impact the kids?
And actually I don't do couples work, so I can't speak to this in terms of
couples work that would have to happen.
Yeah, we have other therapists that do that on our team.
So by the time someone's getting to me, they pretty much are like determined that they are not gonna stay together.
And it's like, how will our kids be
Or they've already separated and they're trying to figure out how to navigate the kids because I just want to be clear about that.
Like I can't speak to the couples aspect of it just because that's not my expertise
But I do come in often when the separation's already happening or it's almost there and the parents kind of like, am I going to screw my kid up forever because I'm doing that?
Is that the big thing that is often the concern?
Yeah.
And it's like in so many ways.
Like I've seen it in I'll just give some examples, like a single mom I worked with whose partner left and is just
gone off the right, like we don't know what's going on there, right?
Like this is many, many years ago.
And now the mom is left with her children and like
How am I going to explain that we don't know what happened to dad, you know, and and how is that going to mess them up forever to have a father who's left?
Or you have parents who like really want to work together.
They're like, okay, we couldn't make it work in our marriage, but like we are committed to making this work for our kid and like they want to come to sessions together.
not to talk about their relationship, but to talk about the child.
Or you have a single dad who's like similar situation to the mom.
Like, so there's so many complexities and situations.
There's high conflicts
So I just want to name that at the beginning of this episode.
It's like it's very hard to speak for what's going to be true in every single co-parenting situation because
a high conflict situation where the child is unsafe with one parent is totally different than like two parents who just want to co-parent and like do their very best for their child, right?
Like there's just so many
possible scenarios here.
Yep.
And I think we should also start by saying, I think a lot of parents I mean in the research that I did for this episode, it seems like a lot of parents do worry about that.
The fact that they are potentially gonna mess up their child.
Yeah.
From either separating or staying together.
A lot of parents are worried about different situations.
But
What I found was there's actually quite a bit of hope for parents to take a hold of and understand that it doesn't necessarily have to m mess anything up.
Your child can still develop in a healthy way and they can still have
super positive outcomes later in life as long as they have that peaceful, predictable bond with at least one caregiver.
Preferably with both, but if that's not possible
it still leads to beneficial outcomes later in life.
So if they have that if there's one parent that even that's stable for the child, it seems like that's just an amazing thing.
That relationship that they have is what
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think there's so much hope in that, to have that one person who's stable, who's reliable, who's consistent, who has the structure for them.
shows the best long-term outcomes, you know, no matter what.
And also I think a lot of people are like, should we stay together for the kids?
And I think that
That is something that we wanted to talk about too.
Like you said, there's a a pervasive myth that staying together for the kids is always the best option.
But actually the research is overwhelming that it's not divorce itself, but ongoing parental conflict that is the primary source of harm for children.
So it's the conflict between parents that's the primary source of harm.
From a child perspective, what does it feel like to live in that high conflict war zone even if the family is technically intact?
And war zone also can
There was so much research on this.
Like it's it's hard to Yeah.
It was quite fascinating for me.
But also Warzone, that term.
could mean high conflict as in parents are literally yelling at each other and screaming at each other and super angry and verbal, or it could be like the Cold War version where
They're ignoring each other and like rolling their eyes.
Yeah, they're giving each other the silent treatment, all that stuff.
In terms of the
Research.
It didn't seem to differentiate between that is still conflict to high conflict situation.
And that is what
harms a child.
Like I love to think about it as like in all relationships there's going to be a conflict, you know, in all marriages.
romantic relationships there'll be conflict at some point, right?
But are you able to work together as a team to try and resolve that conflict?
Is that conflict for a period of time but then it gets better?
Like, you know, so it's not to say like always just split up as soon as there's conflict, 'cause it's bad for the c
You know, people need the nuance to be brought in.
Yeah, sure enough.
Right.
So it's not to say.
Yeah, yeah.
As soon as there's any conflict, end it because it's better for your kids, right?
Of course
Every relationship sometimes has periods of conflict that you can work through and you can get through and be stronger on the other side.
So it's not about that.
But it is about if you and your heart and like the same with your partner are like
We know this isn't gonna work.
This isn't working.
We've been trying to make it work.
It doesn't work.
We're fighting constantly or we give each other the silent treatment.
It's toxic, it's unhealthy, but we've decided it's better to be in this toxic
plasticity all the time for the kids.
Yeah, because we're together.
Because we're together.
That's where I think the research likes to invite parents to say like you don't have to stay together for the kids.
And actually, if your home is constantly filled with toxic fighting or silent treatments or whatever, your child's gonna be in a constant state of alarm, dysregulation.
Like we've said this on many, many episodes before
A child can only be as regulated as the most dysregulated parent.
So if both parents are constantly fighting with each other, your kids are gonna always be in the state of alarm and dysregulation
And in that case, it's not better to say, well, at least they have two parents who still live together.
Yeah.
Right.
If you know separating would lead to a stress reduction in both parents, like less fighting, less conflict
and you could actually start to just take care of your kids and provide that consistent environment that you need.
And so for some parents, hearing that research is the permission slip that they need to say, I've already known this isn't going to work and I'm
putting myself back into this environment where I'm fighting every single day.
And that helps me have permission to say, maybe it's okay if if we
separate and we can just focus on giving the kids what they really need.
Yeah.
And we can't do it together.
I do think at least what we heard in our communities too is it's always better
To just stay together.
It's always better to stay together.
There's no there was no nuance in that at all.
And the research proves quite the opposite, that it is not always better.
Doesn't necessarily mean again Yeah, yeah.
Split up with your partners.
We're not saying that.
No
But again, it's better for a child to live in a stable home.
Studies show that kids do better developmentally with low or less conflict.
And family structure is mostly irrelevant if they live in a constant war zone.
Yeah.
Family war zone.
Even a cold war zone.
Yeah.
You know what I also think?
Like, outside of the fact that when you're fighting or silent treatmenting or whatever and this is like long term ongoing things aren't getting better with your partner, it's just always a struggle.
Of course it's gonna make your kids dysregulated because they can't
like find their calm from you.
But I also think in those situations it's showing your child what a relationship looks like.
You know, if everything we always talk about, it's like you're the model for your child.
And so something I think about
And sometimes this is where this is the deciding factor for some of the people that I've worked with.
It's like I didn't want to model that to my kids and to show them that like that's what they should expect in a relationship because
I knew every day when they watched us interact or they watched us fight or they watched us give each other silent treatment that they were learning that that is what they should tolerate from a future partner and I didn't want that for them and that's why I left
So I think that's like not only are your kids dysregulated, but they also are looking to that as the example.
And sometimes that's the motivation a parent has for deciding to leave in that situation.
This is sort of related to the last question, which you didn't answer, by the way.
What does it feel like to live in that for the child?
But
A core concept that you talk about often is attachment theory.
So you don't r say attachment theory, but you talk about attachment and bonding and everything.
Always.
And the idea that a secure bond with a parent
acts as a kind of psychological immune system for a child.
So if they have that bond, it helps them understand how to regulate their emotions and how to have relationships with others.
Can you break down what that actually means in this context and why separation can feel like such a huge threat to a child's fundamental sense of safety?
Yeah, and I'm thinking back also to the question about like what does it feel like, right?
And I think yeah, it's very related to attachment.
Like if you think about as a parent when you're in that situation and you're constantly fighting, you're at war with your your spouse
And your own attachment needs are not being met within your relationship and you're feeling constantly frantic and frazzled, it's really hard to pour out then and give your child what they need if you're not getting what you need
And in fact, like you're getting the opposite of what you need all the time.
And it's really, really difficult to then show up as like this loving, present, calm person.
If it within your own body as a parent, you're frantic and frazzled and dysregulated all the time.
Right?
Like how can you do it?
It's very, very difficult.
And so then the child starts to
feel frantic and frazzled inside of their body, right?
It's the same way you're feeling.
And then what we know is when a child starts to feel frantic, they start to worry about their attachment, their relationship with their caregiver, they start to engage in behaviors that are a way for them to like
bring you close.
But they're often look like whining, crying, misbehavior, challenging behavior at school.
And a lot of like this is why I have a lot of parents who are going through this who end up seeing me because after the fact
their child struggling with all this behavior.
But what I see is a child with a very alarmed body who is trying everything they can to get their attachment needs met.
Just they're doing it through this behavior that
also kind of makes us want to push them away more, right?
And then so the whole family system just starts to crumble.
And that's usually where I'm coming into a family by that point.
then it's about trying to restore that sense of safety and attachment, like getting that relationship back so that the child can soften and not feel so frantic.
towards their parent and get back into right relationship with them.
Right.
And so all of that I think answers your question of like if a child's attachment needs aren't being met, it's going to come out in behavior, it's going to come out in them being alarmed.
it's gonna come out in all sorts of ways, but it also starts with you.
If if you are constantly not getting your attachment needs met, it's really, really hard to pour that out to someone else too.
And that's why I have so much compassion for parents in these situations because it's like it is so hard to give your kids.
It's pretty hard to model model like when you're going through it, right?
That's probably
the most stressful thing you could go through in life, right?
Especially if you have kids involved too.
It's it's very complicated.
It's already so hard.
And then you really just like your body in like a fight or flight mode.
Like it just wants to take care of itself.
Like just wants to take care of you.
But then you have these children who also need you.
And it's like it is very difficult on a parent.
So I just wanna acknowledge all of that because
I think a lot of parents who are in this situation who listen are like, well, how am I supposed to be calm?
What all the that's like you're right, you know, and so that's where it's like doing your own work, sometimes going to your own therapist, figuring out what you need.
to get your own needs met, it's actually like the first step because it's pretty hard these situations.
So just acknowledging that.
Yeah.
I think we should try and get a little bit more practical here.
So based on what I was reading in the research, and you can correct me if I misunderstood anything here, but the number one job for parents during this kind of situation is conflict shielding.
So beyond the obvious don't yell in front of your kids, what are some of the more subtle ways parents expose their children to conflict, like using them as messengers or making negative comments?
And what damage does that actually do?
And by the way, I'll just mention in all of pretty much all the articles I read on, let's say, this topic.
They said that this is essentially a non-negotiable thing.
Like parents should be conflict shielding.
They're trying to keep their kids completely out of the fact that they're
Relationship with their spouse or significant other is ruptured and not involve them, not make them messengers or
Yeah, in the most ideal world scenario, you're showing up as a united front to your children and they're not a part of your conflict.
Yeah.
Like so that's an ideal world.
Ideal world, right?
That's like I feel like we always say that ideal world and then reality
But you know, it makes me think in my master's degree I actually did a presentation on this topic.
It just came back to my mind on triangulation in families and how that can really happen.
Basically what you would imagine is like
You have you and your partner and then all of a sudden you bring a child into it and the child kind of becomes the center point of like these fights that you're having, right?
And so one partner's like telling the child, oh, you never believe what dad said today, you know, like that.
And then the other partner's like, could you go tell mom that
When she said that earlier, that was rude and she shouldn't have said that.
And all of a sudden we're putting the child in the center, right?
Or even in a co parenting dynamic where
the child's going to like dad's house and like, hey, make like make sure you tell me if like daddy brings any girls over to the house and like tell me if he cleans the kitchen.
Like does he have any food in the fridge?
Like and then the child's like, oh no, he didn't
typical, like classic dad never has any food in the fridge, right?
Like it's so easy to get into this dynamic where now your child becomes parentified in a way where it's like the child becomes the other
like almost like a spy or like another adult in the situation and you're putting adult conversations, adult needs, adult
Tensions onto the child because they just happen to be there.
But the child shouldn't be the person that you're processing any of this with
They can know it's hard.
They can know you're struggling.
They can know that like things are tricky.
That's fine.
That's human.
You don't have to pretend like everything's perfect all the time.
But they're not the ones who you're processing like, oh, dad did this, this, this, and this, and that's why we all hate him.
And you know.
Yeah.
Because it's very easy to get in situations where you start to pin a child against one parent or the other, or you put
too much responsibility on them.
They feel a lot of anxiety around that.
So that is very important.
And I agree.
I think that like in any research we talk about, it's how we're shielding our children and how we're making sure that
They don't feel responsible for the marital conflict that's going on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean the reality is I think parents are
a major part of a child's self worth too, right?
And they look up to their parents.
They should think that their parents are like the best people in the world.
Yes.
So as soon as you try pitting them against the other one, I can see it like making them kind of the spy for you or the messenger for you.
That's that's pretty dangerous and can be damaging for even the child's self-worth.
And also like making sure your child doesn't think it's about them.
Yeah.
I've had situations where a child's like, they know the parents are fighting, but they don't know what it's about.
And they're like, oh, it's probably because I never listen.
And then the child's like, no, they're probably fighting because I never listened to them.
And
you know I'm always in trouble that's why they're getting a divorce.
So we want to also make sure we're asking like you don't have to give your children every single detail, right?
But you want to make sure that they know that your marriage, your relationship, whatever's going on there is not their fault.
And it doesn't have to do with the way that they behave.
Like this is an adult thing, you love them, they're good.
This is not about their behavior
How truthful should you be with your child about let's say even what ca they're gonna have questions about w why are you separating?
Like why are you not living together anymore or why are you so mad at each other?
How honest can or should you be with your child?
If there was a certain s like one of the one person did something that now caused these two to get separated.
How do you, let's say, not pit them against one parent, but also be honest at the same time and make sure, hey, let's say the community is gonna know and potentially other parents
And kids at school will even know.
But then if you don't really tell your child all of everything, all of a sudden they're gonna have other kids telling them something that they're like, wait, what?
I didn't know that.
It's a very broad question, but I think
Yes, because I think it's also like age appropriateness for something.
So for example, like what you're gonna tell a three-year-old might be different than what you're gonna tell like a 13-year-old, right?
And I I think it is actually important to say that because I've had parents who are like, I heard that you have to be honest and then they like told their five year old like every detail about something that was gonna be way too much for their five year old to process, right?
Yeah, I guess more what I'm wondering is, okay, let's we talk about it in an age appropriate way, but let's say if a separation is due to the fact that one
person did something specific that was the most hurtful thing that they could possibly do to their other parent, how do you explain like this is
what happened, but also not make that child pissed off at that other parent?
Or is it okay that they're upset with that parent?
But is it fair to like for the other parent to explain that to the child and like
It's also through probably a very emotional and biased lens too then.
I don't know.
It's a complicated thing, right?
I wouldn't explain it on your own unless you like totally have to, like in the scenario I'm saying where it's like
the one parent literally is gone, like then you have no choice.
So you like you have to explain that the parent left, right?
I think what the child needs to really know in these situations is like
Am I still safe?
Am I still loved?
What's changing for me in my life?
And like, is this person who I've always loved like the person that I know and that I want to continue to always love?
And do they still love me?
Right.
So child's very self-centered in this situation, which is, you know, just one of the things about being a child
And so it's important to keep that in mind.
Oh, and the other thing a child really needs to know is like, am I to blame?
Like, did I make this happen?
I think that
As children get older, like the like late childhood kind of tween stage, we can be honest with them, like with facts.
But we don't need to give them every single detail of what happened.
No, right, of course not.
And I mean it sounds obvious, but Okay.
Here, I will pose an example then.
Let's say I cheat on you with someone and you're like, we can't repair this.
You wanna
have a separation, we agree to do that and everything.
And then our oldest who's eight is like, well why?
Why are you doing this?
Like how would you
Explain that to her that I've done this thing.
Okay, in my ideal world.
Or should I be doing it with you?
Yeah.
In my ideal world we would do that together.
Okay.
It would be a conversation that we would have together so that it doesn't look like I'm pinning her against you and I'm having this private conversation with her that you're not a part of.
Is it realistic though?
Like let's say if I've done something that's so hurtful to you.
Well, let's back it up
That conversation doesn't have to happen the moment that it it's happening.
No, right?
Right.
I think it's important to like say that because oftentimes in like the heat of the moment, this is when parents tell their children like all sorts of things and then later they're like
Oh, I wish I never said that, you know, but it's too late because I was like so frazzled and so upset that I told them that daddy did this terrible thing and now I'm like
That's how I told them.
And now I have to deal with that.
Right.
So like I just like to encourage parents, like, not every conversation has to happen when you're trying to figure stuff out.
Yeah, but it could take years to figure it all out though, right?
But like you can give yourself a month or something to just kinda settle yourself a little bit.
So you can I'll give you a couple scenarios.
What one thing that my therapist has always said is like think of three scenarios and then just choose
which one makes the most sense and you respect the most.
So whenever you have a hard situation, think of three things you could do and then just choose one of them.
And I always really like that because there's always multiple ways of responding to things.
It doesn't always have to be like this one way
So in an ideal world, I think the parents would be able to show that united front and have that conversation together to be like, look, we are having struggles because things like cheating don't happen for no reason, right?
So it's like we are having struggles in our marriage.
A lot of people have struggles in their marriage.
It has nothing to do with you guys.
This is something that we are going through as part of
the struggles that we were having, you know, and then maybe you would explain.
Like we were having a lot of struggles with mom.
I was having a hard time myself and I made a big mistake and I was talking with or whatever with another
person, you know, and I want you to hear that from me because you might hear it from somebody else.
And I need you to know it from me before you hear it from somebody else that this happened.
Right.
And I would like, I mean, in a self-aware parent situation, they're self-aware enough to be like, likely this child's gonna find out.
I would rather it be
from me.
It's like not the uncle making some flippant comment at Christmas or a cousin or whatever, right?
Honestly kids at school or friends or whatever.
Usually as parents, you know other parents from school and then those their kids will know, which will be likely friends with your
Your kids.
So I just foresee kids learn a lot from school.
The best in that situation I think would be for the parent who did the thing to take ownership and be like this is what happened.
It wasn't about you.
I love you.
This is a mistake that I made.
And now because this has happened, this is the consequence.
And
not pinning it on the other partner to be like she won't let me come back in the house or whatever it is, right?
Again, trying to be that united front as much as you can
And even then, if your kid's a little bit older and can understand what cheating means or whatever, like that will be more complex.
But for even like the eight-year-olds in that situation, it's gonna be, okay, well, what about me
Like what does that mean for me?
And so I think parents should keep that in mind too of like you can tell them all these things that you did, but at the end of the day, the younger kids are gonna be like, okay, but what about me?
Like what does that mean for my life?
Am I in trouble?
Is it my fault?
Where am I gonna sleep?
How does this look?
And so making it a lot more about, and this is what your life's gonna be like now.
And like let's talk about it.
And yes, even though we're not living in the same house,
we both still care about you and we want to make sure that you're doing as well as you can, making it about caring for the child versus like telling them every single thing about the mistake that you made and keeping it open for like
This will be a topic that I'm sure will continue to come up in our lives.
Like I want you to know that you can ask me questions.
Like I made a mistake, I did something wrong, and I shouldn't have
Done that and now this is what's happening.
And I just want you to know you can ask me questions and we can talk about it.
But my love for you like does not change and
You know, I I think having those conversations will be helpful, whether or not it's like together or you have to have them separate because the you can't do it together.
Yeah, because what you're saying sounds very ideal and logical and like it's all going super.
We're we're just separating and yeah, I feel really bad and but I feel like a lot of situations are not that easy.
No, absolutely.
Again, that's like the ideal scenario.
But sometimes it is like one parent has to have that conversation, right?
Yeah.
Well I just think about it in terms of the conflict shielding and how you actually have that
conversation without involving them in the conflict, but trying to give them the reason that the conflict is even happening.
But again, you're not trying to pit them
Against and I mean they're allowed to have their feelings about the parent who made the mistake anyway, but I just feel like if you're in an emotional state, even a month later
There's still gonna be emotional about it, right?
I don't know.
That's a very challenging Right.
And that's why I'm like hesitant to be like, here's a one size fits all of like how you should have this because
it's very case dependent on like what's happening.
And so I'm very mindful of like I don't want to say something and then a parent does that, it's like totally backfires on them.
That's why I keep coming back to like what do children need?
What do they need to understand
They also do need to be able to ask questions and get honest answers because sometimes the answer that they have in their mind is far, far, far worse
because they are very imaginative and they have lots of like ideas of what could have happened than what actually happened.
So that is why you do need to be able to answer them factually when they ask something without giving every single detail of what happened.
Because they will likely just come to their own conclusion then and that conclusion might be totally off base or way worse than what happened or Or they blame themselves for themselves.
So like know that kids are gonna be curious, they're gonna have questions and when we can give them factual, honest answers without making them feel like now they have to choose or now they have to hate their one parent.
Or they're unloved by the one parent.
The one parent's awful.
Like just trying to be neutral about it while still like you can let them see you cry.
You can let them see that it's really tough.
But they just need to know they're not gonna be alone in that.
That's like the real key, I think.
And it's not their job to fix anything.
Right.
And that like for especially I think is for sensitive kids.
They often like come in like, if I could just get my parents back together, you know?
And like you see them like try so hard
And be like, hey, like this is an adult responsibility.
This is between us.
We are gonna figure this out.
Like your job is to be a kid.
And to still enjoy your life, still go to school, still have all these predictable things.
And like you try and like give them the predictability, the routine, the structure as much as they've always had it, as much as you can in this new way
and reminding them their role versus your role, I think, is important as well.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week, our daughter asked Scott a truly
kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from
Our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
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Okay, so let's maybe
veer in a slightly different direction here and talk about the predictability.
Because yeah, what you're saying, that's what the research says too, making sure they have predictable home or homes.
And there was talk of co-parenting, which is kind of like the gold standard, which you were explaining parents are kind of cooperating.
They maybe don't get along, but
It's not like they're in conflict when they're trying to make parenting decisions.
But then there's also this thing called parallel parenting, which if I understand correctly is
It's essentially two completely separate homes.
The parents do not interact in terms of making decisions, most decisions about their children when they're in their respective homes.
So they don't have they don't get to choose what the other parent does with the child in their home.
Is that usually in like high conflict situations where you would see that?
Yeah, some high conflict situations for sure.
It's definitely much more stressful when you don't know what's going on in the other home, right?
Right.
But is it real and the thing is is it realistic if it's such a high conflict relationship that the parents have to expect them that they're gonna co parent and make decisions together?
No.
No, like I would say the parallel parenting if anything, like I actually see that in my work.
a lot.
Okay.
Where I'll have one parent come to me and like the other parents not interested in doing the work together.
They would love for it to happen, but it's just not gonna happen, right?
And then I think in that case, it's like you do the best you can with the time you have for your child.
And the one thing you just want to make sure of is that you know that they're safe at the other person's home.
Right.
Right.
If you have a fear that they're not safe in the other person's home, that's another conversation.
Yeah, of course.
That's I mean a separate thing.
What I'm talking about more is parenting your child.
Let's say creating the best outcomes in life for them, doing the least harm on them.
Yeah.
Then it's about the predictability of like when I come to let's say dad's house.
I know these are the things that we do.
These are his rules and Yeah.
And there's that predictability, which gives that feeling of safety to the child.
Like when I go to dad's house, I know what it looks like
I know we do one movie night.
I know this is what screen time looks like.
I know when he goes to work.
You know, I know how he tucks me in at night.
There's that consistency, that routine.
And I know when I go to my other parents' house that this is what it looks like.
It's totally different than dad's house, but I know what it looks like.
And there's like some
consistency to it.
I think that's the best thing that you can do for children.
Like the hardest thing is if they're going house to house and they have no idea what to expect every time they're at either house.
That's gonna make them really dysregulated.
So I think it it goes back to always, like in every conversation we have, is like we know what kids need.
They need structure, they need routine, they need time to play, time to rest, time to like
cry in the arms of someone that loves them.
If we can give children what they need and they're in two homes, we're still giving them what they need, right?
So that that
I think when we can always take it back to like these core things we know from like decades and decades of research kids need and just focus on that
That like simplifies things quite a bit.
It does, but it's kind of I mean it's easier to say when you're not super stressed out about it.
Simple but not easy.
Yeah.
Okay, here's a little bit more nuanced topic for you.
Love it.
Or question.
The challenges of
Co-parenting or parallel parenting are often magnified when a child is neurodivergent.
Consistency in routines and sensory environments becomes even more critical.
Do you have any specific advice for parents trying to create that comfortable consistency across two homes for a child with ADHD or autism?
Yeah.
I mean my my most ideal advice is like even if you can't talk about anything else but like can you agree that you want what's best for your child in terms of like supporting them in their neurodivergence, like their unique needs, right?
I'll have parents
who will come to coaching with me who are like every other topic's off limits.
Like we don't we don't even want to work on the relationship outside of this, but we do want strategies for supporting our child because we know they have unique needs and like we need to we need to have a plan for what we're doing.
And I think that's so beautiful and respectable when parents can come together for that.
I think even things of like, hey, we don't have to talk about anything else, but I just want you to know that
you know, I tried doing this and it really helped him.
And like, is there certain ways that you can try like whether it's an email, like sometimes in high conflict situations, like texting's not an option
you know, that opens a can of worms.
It's an email or it's something where you can say, like, can we possibly be receptive to each other on this one?
topic because we want to support him and or her and they're approaching unique needs, right?
Specifically for co-parenting or co-parenting, yeah.
They even have like I was looking into it and there's apps that even have like a tone meter and they kind of uh they
look at what you've written and try and parse okay what what is your tone right in what you're saying right now.
Just to and then some of them are even like monitored.
You can have another third party present in communication too if you really need it.
Yeah.
I like that.
I think that's helpful because there are certain things that if you're able to communicate on that's gonna be most helpful for your child, especially you throw neurodivergence into the mix and like that structure and routine becomes even more important.
You don't have like if we go back to our temperaments epis episode, like the more flexible child, like your child really needs it, right?
So it's like, can we work together just to for this?
thing.
Yeah.
And sometimes the answer is still no, right?
And then it's again doing the best you can in your own home and knowing
that that structure and routine and love and support and repair that you give them does make a huge difference.
Like it does matter.
Like parents like, oh, but then they go there for three days and they don't get it.
All the time that
Like the time you have with them matters and it makes a like a big difference.
Children need that one person who shows up for them, is consistent for them, loves them.
And like that is shown to have huge long-term outcomes.
So like Yeah, the research backs all of that up.
Like it was for both cooperative co-parenting situations and the parallel parenting situation where the parents literally can't even talk to each other.
Yeah.
Having stable, loving homes, even if it's two separate ones, still has long-lasting, incredibly positive effects on the children.
Yeah.
And the same for single parents who don't have
a partner who's around, right?
Like you have that opportunity again to show that consistency.
What that shows honestly is that if you only had one
super consistent stable home and then the other one lacks rules and all that, but then you end up going back to the other one and you feel loved there.
And the child perceives that they're receiving love.
That
has profoundly positive impact on their life.
So even as a a single parent, it's the same thing.
You will you have that impact on them.
So I think that's that's the
Yeah, the gold huge hope in it all, right?
I wrote this down.
Like the gold standard is to achieve as much synchronicity of parenting as is possible given your relationship.
The more you can do, the easier it will be to have let's say the more positive outcomes.
I won't get too much into this.
We talked about this in the next episode as well.
But the research also highlights how socioeconomic stress is a massive factor with financial strain directly impacting a parent's ability to be emotionally available.
This
isn't something a parent can just decide to go fix.
Especially the research was showing that apparently if like a mom is
the default caregiver and ha maybe spends more time with the kids after separation.
They tend to have a 25 to 50% reduction in the income that they
can bring in.
So it's not something they can just go out and decide to fix cause all of a sudden they're doing all of this work on their own.
So how can a parent who is
potentially working two jobs and worried about rent still create moments of connection and buffer their child from that stress when it's kind of all consuming.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think it's about the repair if
there's been a rupture, it's about the little rituals that you can build in.
So even if you're working and they're at like after school care and
you know, all these things like what what are the little moments of connection that you can find?
Though those are the ones that really mean the most to any child, right?
So is it at dinner you try and ask them the highlights and lowlights of their day?
Is it
bedtime where you give them some extra snuggles and lay with them till they fall asleep every night and that's like what you do for a while because that's the time of day where they're the most chatty and they want to talk to you.
Is it something that you do at breakfast or like a song that you listen to while you get ready in the morning?
Like I really think it's about building in like the small rituals, little structures in the day, little things that the children can look forward to that don't have to be
crazy big and can just provide that little consistency.
And like I think those are the things that really make a child feel safe and build those memories and that relationship.
And it doesn't have to be overcomplicated.
Yeah, for sure
And it goes back to like what I said before of like what we know to be true about children.
They need play, they need to feel loved, they need structure, they need to squash in puddles, they you know, and so they don't need expensive toys or like
Don't feel like you have to overcompensate for it.
It's the way that you show up that's gonna make the biggest difference.
And I've seen so, so, so many single parents do that incredibly
And so don't tell yourself that you won't be able to do it because you don't have a partner.
Like I really believe that.
I mean, I've seen kids who have two
Parents and they've got tons of money who can't show up for them in the same way that like a single mom shows up for her kids, right?
So I just feel like
people like we need to give ourselves grace and take away whatever stigma is there, even like internalized.
For sure.
Okay.
I think we can
Start wrapping this up now.
We have covered a lot of different things.
Uh for parents listening right now who feel potentially completely overwhelmed by it all, maybe they're going through separation, what is the one core principle you want them to hold on to?
The one
The one thing that you love.
If they can do one thing right, what do you hope that is?
Okay, and then I have a question for you.
Sure.
I think the one thing you can do is just continue to try to show up for your child to be their safe space in all of it.
And
Make sure that they know that it's not about them, that they didn't do anything wrong, that they're loved, and that even when life is tough, like you're gonna try and be on their team and work it out with them.
Like they're not losing you
Yeah.
Both parents.
Like they're not losing you.
You're always still there for them.
Life's just gonna look different.
I think if you can do that, no matter what else is going on, the child's gonna feel safe and cared for and like have that secure base to fall back on.
I think that's huge.
My one thing is
conflict shielding.
Which is related to yours, because it's kind of in the best interest, the most loving thing you can do.
Right.
So well actually the question I was going to ask you was
And we can cut this if you don't want to say it, but like as a child who grew up in a very conflict home and
I think it's fair to say your parents later got divorced, but not when you were a child.
Yeah.
What is the one thing you think like of all the things that
Could have helped you, I'm sure you can name a million, but like what's one thing that you think would have helped you in those situations?
Actually, I will say the one thing that probably helped.
was staying at my grandparents maybe not most weeks, but often.
Mm-hmm.
So you actually kind of lived in two homes in that way?
Yeah, I would for months at a time would live with my grandparents.
Or me and my siblings would.
Mm-hmm.
And what did that provide you with that you didn't have at home?
Well, it's definitely that structure.
They were it was far more structured in both so we would usually spend most of our time on the farm, my grandparents' farm, and then sometimes we would go to our other
grandparents in in town.
Uh but either one, they were very structured and they were still very loving to all of us and took care of all of our needs and everything.
Like anytime we ever needed anything, they would be there to help us.
So you, I think, are a prime example of you had one home that had structure or one place that had structure and then another place that didn't.
But it
the place that had structure still stayed with you, even though the other place didn't.
Right.
And so I think like I think that's like really helpful for a lot of people who are
in that situation, like I am imagining the people listening to this episode are the people providing the structure and then sometimes the other parent isn't, right?
But to say that that matters and is going to really be this huge safeguard for your child throughout the
their life um I hope is hopeful for them.
Yeah, because I would say my grandparents very imperfect, but provided
the n s like the real necessities for us in general.
So I think it could have been a lot different if we did not have that where we were living essentially at our grandparents for months at a time.
And you had the structure.
So yeah, it doesn't mean it was perfect.
But like you had some things you could rely on when life felt tough.
And I think that's huge for kids and uh hopefully hopeful for anyone listening.
Yeah.
Oh
I wanted to add one last question that's a little bit different, but because this is a far more challenging life scenario that some people go through, a lot of parents go through.
I wanted to ask, when should a parent be concerned that their child's struggles are more than just a normal adjustment to divorce?
And what are some red flags for a school aged child or teenager that tell a parent, okay, it's time, we should probably look for some professional help?
Or should they just, if they can, immediately get professional help?
I mean if you can, and I would say not even necessarily for the kids, but if you can for yourself.
find a therapist who can kind of support you through the process and make sure that like you can show up for your kids in the way that they need, I think that's great and I would definitely say.
And then I would also say if you think your kid needs help, then try and see if you can find it.
And is there like a way to tell if hey this is just a normal adjustment to a huge life change?
Or this is a real problem that we're seeing and it needs to be
We need some help?
I would say I would be concerned if their behavioral issues are impacting the quality of life
Like so it's one thing like they're having big meltdowns and they're having struggles, but like your child like can't go to school anymore.
They can't hang out with their friends, like they're shutting down, they're like not enjoying life the way that they used to.
Like those would be concerns for me
Um another concern I would have is if a child like refuses to talk about it.
Like sure if it's been like a month and they like they're not ready
But if it's it's been going on for a while and they they refuse to talk about what's going on, like that tells me they're pretty defendant and like they're struggling with something.
They don't want to talk about it, like if they haven't cried about it
Like I actually would rather a child who's like crying saying this is really hard and you know I miss the way things were.
At least then you have a child who's vulnerable and like talking to you, but if a child's like not at the point where they can talk to you about it or they like
just get really silly and like and this is like ongoing, real anger, aggression, impacting their grades, like inability to concentrate at school.
All of those things would be to me signs that support might be needed
Does that not go hand in hand with that adjustment?
Sort of regardless of it being a cheaper issue or Yeah, but I'm talking like long-term.
Like it's one thing if that's happening for a little bit and then you're getting settled into your routine and your child's doing better.
But if you're getting settled into your new routine and like otherwise like things are pretty settled and this is still continuing on, then I would say
Like why not?
Like if you can reach out for help, why not?
Yeah.
And just even if your parental instincts are like, hmm, I think
My child's really struggling in a way that I like to feel like you really beyond my support, right?
Yeah, if you re if you feel like you really don't know how to handle the situation.
Yeah.
Then if you can, why not?
Kind of thing is what I think.
Um and it's not necessarily enrolling your child straight away into child therapy.
Like sometimes kids don't need it.
Like if their kids if their parents are consistent, like they're showing up, structure stays there
Some children are actually like just okay and like they don't necessarily need therapy about it.
So it's also trying not to project onto them, being like
This is so hard for you and for sure you can't handle it.
Right.
So we want to be very mindful of projecting.
Sometimes I think like parents will be like, I have to get them in therapy right away.
And then it like signals to the child like, oh, this is like a way bigger deal than I even thought.
Oh, I should probably be stressed about it because now I'm in therapy and like you know what I mean.
Yes.
Understand
Talk to the rest of their support system.
Yeah.
You know, call on if there's a healthy grandparent who can support, if there's friends who can step in and provide structure.
Like it doesn't just have to
to be you.
I think that's the other thing we didn't talk about is that if you're going through this, this is where the support system can like play a really nice role and uh be a really healthy part of it.
Okay
Uh this was challenging because I feel like we did not give too many concrete here's how we resolve this because there's so many different possible scenarios here.
Well and that's honestly like really intentional on my end.
Because
I don't want to tell parents like do this when I you don't know the complexities of what's going on.
So every situation is different and
Be much easier in a way if you're like, this is the situation and the parent is here and we're like talking them through it versus like the kind of abstract with like thousands of different possible scenarios.
That I'm trying to that were
But like summing it up.
Similar enough, but there's still every situation is different.
The reasons that it happened are different.
But summing it up to like knowing what children need and being that safe person, like
I mean that once again we're back to like everything.
So I think that's like the simplicity, I guess, of what we teach here is that everything kind of comes back to those core principles, even
like more complicated situations like this.
Okay.
Well thank you, Jessica.
Thank you.
Thanks for asking me good questions.
Did you like them?
I think they were good, yeah.
Good.
Right.
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