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We talk to Hamilton's George Washington - Paul Oakley Stovall!
We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?
Full transcript (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.
2 (10s):
And
3 (10s):
I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand
3 (15s):
It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
0 (32s):
Podcast situation.
1 (34s):
Cause I was talking to someone else that had the same thing where they were trying to use video and it's like not working. So it's like tech, it's like nothing ever works. Like that's the other name of my solo show. It's like just nothing ever really works. Like we're always like, well, all this to say too that I have come to the conclusion that we are in the time period of in history that I am now calling the great unraveling. Okay, so we've got the great unraveling going on. Now listen, I, I think it's sad, but also the good news is at the end of the unraveling, if humankind has still made it, we can build a new sweater.
1 (1m 15s):
Do you know what I mean? Like, we're gonna have to create a
2 (1m 17s):
Gonna say, yeah, you get, you go, you keep going on that sweater and you know that there's problems, but you're like, maybe it won't look that bad.
1 (1m 27s):
And no, you have to unravel the thing at,
2 (1m 29s):
At some point you say, and there's that term, the myth of invested co.
1 (1m 37s):
Yeah, I know what you mean
2 (1m 38s):
Is, but it's like when you build, when you buy into this idea, Well I've come this far, I might as well keep going and
1 (1m 45s):
Don't keep going. So
2 (1m 46s):
Time investment. Yeah, no, sometimes
1 (1m 48s):
There's like no, there's no telling like how good it can be to just call it, just call something and be like, I'm calling it, you know, like I'm calling it and, and, and there is a tipping point of like, and I think I've told this story about my drywall holes in my apartment. The first apartment I ever had. Did I tell this story? I don't think so. Okay. This is where we are in history. We are at this point where I was, after my dad died, I lived by myself for the first time ever and I got this little apartment and I decided I was gonna put up a quote floating shelf, right? So you need to put holes in the wall and then you put Molly bolts in, they expand.
1 (2m 32s):
Okay. So, but you, but thing number one, it was like a thousand degrees. No, call it. Okay. Could have called it there. Didn't, in my apartment, no air conditioning thousand degrees. Summer, call it, I did not call it. I proceeded two investigate what your motherfucking walls are made of before you do this. Because plaster does not, it does not work out. So I started to drill holes with my molly with my drill. And I'm like, Oh, oh, that's interesting. The holes just kind of gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And I'm like, Yeah, but I just have to keep going. So I kept going and by the end, and then I had holes about the size of a tennis ball in each, and I was like, Okay, but maybe it'll still work.
1 (3m 16s):
Okay, dude, I looked around and then I moved to the shelf around. So I had multiple holes thinking it was the spot in the wall that was the pr. Oh my God, I'm alone. I don't know what's happening. I have a drill. My dad, dad left me like, I don't know what's happening. So I look around and there are chi, I'm sweating. I'm on the verge of tears and there are literally tennis ball holes all over the walls of my studio apartment. And I just think, and I, I then I stopped and I was like, okay, this is, I don't know what made me stop, but I was like, okay, this is insanity. This is the definition of insanity. Because now, yeah, the whole thing is screwed and I have to patch it all.
1 (4m 0s):
It was the biggest lesson of my life of like, wait a second, investigate before you start a project. And it reminds me of your family's project about the trains. Like how one of your kids is really good about planning and out and stuff. I am not that way and I'm learning to be more that way. So anyway,
2 (4m 20s):
Yeah, that's a part that that is I think a big part of maturing. Like I, I have the same thing. I do a lot of little crafty things, sewing and stuff like that. And the, they always tell you, measure twice and cut once. And I've never wanted to do that. And I always had this feeling of like, it'll be faster. Yes. I have to, you know. And then one day I said, Wait, what, what needs to be faster? I'm, this is literally like, there's no deadline on this. I I, there's no reason not to take my time because it's so frustrating when you were, by the way, I remember the term, it's called sunk costs. And I am really susceptible to being like, well, I just gotta keep, you know, I started, started on this path.
1 (5m 5s):
I
2 (5m 5s):
Gotta just keep going. I, I don't know if you have told that story on the podcast. I, when you started to talk about your apartment and your dad, I was thinking you were talking about the phone.
1 (5m 14s):
Oh my god, your dad,
2 (5m 16s):
He
1 (5m 16s):
Always wanted do always. He was like, I can do it. And then he would end up, literally he would, he's not an electrician or a phone repairman. He had no skills in that whatsoever. And yet wanted to rewire my apartment so that I could have a phone jack in my bedroom. And it ended up being an eight hour thing where he was screaming and it was, and I had to buy him tacos at one point. I I it was like really bad.
2 (5m 42s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the, the beau like that could have gone either way, you know, because sometimes the inde fat ability of youth makes us press on and then it works out. You know, sometimes that, that's a good thing. Cuz sometimes when you're old you just know how many things can go wrong and you don't, you know, try it in the first place. But there is something, gosh, we spend so much time in the effort of like doing things to seem like the person we wanna be, instead of just being like, Hey, I, I'm a, you know, in the case of your dad, I'm a very good child psychologist. Like, I don't know how to wire anything because of why would I, because I wasn't trained in this.
2 (6m 24s):
This is not my livelihood. I think men get, I feel like men have suffer with that a
1 (6m 29s):
Lot. Yes.
2 (6m 30s):
If they're not handy or whatever.
1 (6m 31s):
Yes. That they
2 (6m 32s):
Failing their
1 (6m 34s):
Masculinity. Yes. I mean I just think you're right. Like it is this sickness that we have to like, prove, you said it, I wanna be seen as this kind of person. I don't even know for me if it's like I wanna be that kind of person because I never even stopped to ask myself who, what kind of person do I wanna be? So it's like the perception and, and you talk a lot about that, about like managing perception and like who, you know, and especially in theater school and then beyond, but like, who do I wanna be seen as? And that brings up, I don't know if you wanna talk about Des Doona because I have so many things to say. Okay, please. So Gina, I, we've talked on the podcast, I think it's aired Yeah. About Des Doona.
1 (7m 13s):
Like we found, well Gina found and her director had footage of Gina acting at the theater school on a stage in a play. Well in a classroom it was a workshop. Right. So, but it's still a stage. It's a stage. Don't say. Of course. Yes. That's hilarious. Okay. It's a stage. Yeah, I get it. Of course. I was like the, yeah. Anyway, so and then we, by the way,
2 (7m 37s):
Sorry to interrupt you, but students now don't ever have to do that.
1 (7m 42s):
I know students
2 (7m 42s):
Live with theater school now, will never know the paid of performing 95 classroom. But anyway,
1 (7m 49s):
Yeah. And, and yeah, they have like 10 theaters. It's like ridiculous. Okay. So this video is actually good quality. Like I expected it to be super shaky. Allison did a great, she did it right, Alison Zel, she taped, Okay, I assume she had a cam quarter cuz there were no cell phones. So she must have had a cam quarter or whatever they were called then. I think it was that. And there is it's footage of the whole play. It's the whole play. Right. I saw, yeah, I didn't watch the whole play, but I watched Gina scenes and Gina's monologue and it is the year, what year is this?
2 (8m 28s):
I'm gonna say like 95.
1 (8m 32s):
Okay, so 1995.
2 (8m 35s):
Yeah, 95. That's what I think it was. Yeah. Okay.
1 (8m 38s):
Okay. So, so 95 and Gina is playing the, I think like technically you're like the handmade, This the of des your, your Desmos, your Amelia. Right. Okay. Was your name Amelia? Well Amelia in the show. Okay.
2 (8m 58s):
Okay. Cause I watched those four minutes. I didn't go back and then I was gonna look at the script that I forgot
1 (9m 3s):
To, but okay, That's okay. That's okay. And so my reaction watching was, oh, the accent with which you said was crazy, wasn't that crazy? Like, I could understand what you were saying. You didn't sound, I expected you literally to sound like Anna Delvy from inventing Anna, but you did not like it was, it didn't seem put on. And also it was, it, everyone else had an accent too, so it wasn't, But what I noticed was, yeah, it wasn't so bad, Gina, it was not so bad. The acting wasn't bad, the accent wasn't crazy. He looked great. Every, the play was actually really well done. Like, I believed it.
2 (9m 43s):
Yeah, she's a great director. Allison. I'll say all three of the FFA directors, cuz I worked with all of them were really good. Shauna Flanigan and David Mold. I've been trying to get David Mold on the show. I don't, I have, I don't think he's anywhere on social media, but yeah, they were all really good. So I, I know I talk so much shit about like always being in workshops, but at least I had that experience because I've heard many stories of main stage shows directed by, you know, the sought after directors. I mean, Joe SL probably being the chief among them and just like, wasn't that great
1 (10m 16s):
Of a no. Right. I mean, I, So how did you feel, we talked a little bit about it, but like how did you feel? Were you scared to watch and then you hit play and how did you go into it?
2 (10m 28s):
I wasn't, I was super excited because I, like I said, I, I don't have any other footage of myself prior to the iPhone, I'll say. So that was interesting. No, and I, I, I'll say this, I had so much more, I can, I can say with some degree of confidence that I had so much more empathy for myself than I ever have reflecting on any, you know, previous period of my life. It is right. That you would say that you would poit that I was gonna be afraid because any other time in my life, I definitely would have.
2 (11m 10s):
In fact, if I, if I had known that this footage existed 10 years ago, I would've said, Oh, I, I don't, I don't wanna see that, you know, I'm just, I'm not ready to see that. But I'm in a phase of my life where I'm really facing the things that happen to me Memory of when I was in high school. So my little drama crew, we were friends and we, we did pretty much everything together. And one of one among us really, really always wanted to be in television and film.
2 (11m 52s):
And he was like, he had an eye out for that sort of thing. And you know how they have these things that come through these towns, like at the hotel, at the local cheap hotel and somebody's giving us seminar and like how to break into the business. Yes. So he took us to one of these and it was exactly like, you imagine it was a semi conference room in a very low budge hotel with those hotel chairs. And, and this guy, and, and I couldn't tell you a single thing that he talked about except for this. He looked around, he took a dramatic pause and he looked around at everybody and he said, Sin is in, and if you're not thin, you either need to get there or find another profession.
2 (12m 43s):
Wow.
1 (12m 43s):
And I thought,
2 (12m 46s):
I bet you that is why, I bet you that is a big reason why I, when I, by the time I was in theater school, I was not even approaching thinking because of course when I first wanted to be an actress, it was to be an actress in movies. Like Right. You know, that was the goal, which I completely forgot about. It was really only at the end of high school right after this happened and through theater school that I thought, no, it's, it's only theater for me.
1 (13m 19s):
Oh. Because of that
2 (13m 20s):
Wild, I think so I think it was because of that. And I think, I think now look, was I a fearful person who would take any opportunity to close the door in my own face? Sure. You know, it's, I'm not putting it on this guy. I'm more just saying like, Wow. Talking about the sort of like the raban thing. Like if what if you hadn't said that? Or what if I hadn't heard, or what if I hadn't been there? I don't know if it would've been any different, but, so, but I guess the thing I wanted to ask you is do you have memories of like, can you point to any memory that you think might have shaped the direction you went in versus
1 (14m 6s):
Oh my god, you might have gone in. Oh my god. So, okay. So we had a high school drama teacher that was a closeted gay man that Mr. D who was sort of himself a portly gentleman, older he was, there were two by the way, there were two drama teachers at Evanston Township High School, one of whom was convicted of sex crimes and went to jail. And later like, like it was a big scandal, the creator of Lost who, who went to Evanston came out and said, JJ
2 (14m 45s):
Abrams,
1 (14m 45s):
No, it's Lieber not, he didn't do Abrams, it's this guy Jeffrey Lieber. And he came out and said, Hey, this guy who we all thought was quirky and whatever, Mr. C worth, and it was, it's on the, in the news, you can look it up. He was actually a, a predator and this is what happened to me and I'm going to the police. And then people started coming forward, Okay, fine. So it was Mr. Sea Worth and Mr. D, Mr didn't, I think he's passed away, but I'm not sure. And Mr didnt had a, had a wife, but was, you know, anyway, so came out later of course in all the things, but about Mr.
1 (15m 26s):
Didn't, which is his per, I get it, you're persecuted. Do what you need to do. How that's not my beef. Mr. Didn't, So we were doing Auntie Mame and I was Agnes Gooch of course, and my best friend Heather Burns was Auntie Mame. And so there is a scene where Agnes Gooch has to wear a dress of Auntie Maes and Mr didn't said, Well, it's totally not believable that you would fit into address that Heather wears. I don't know how that's gonna be believable. We're never gonna make that happen. And he was obsessed with her and particularly her, her body, Right. As a so gross. So that was one moment where I was like, Oh, I'm always, it's never gonna be, I'm never gonna be the star.
1 (16m 9s):
And,
2 (16m 10s):
And so many tragedies are littered with people like this thing that came out when Jeanette Ural, however, say her last name, wrote her memoir, and then she named, it was kind of funny. I, I listened to that audio book as soon as it came out. And I was surprised when she went, she calls the him in the book The Creator, but then there wasn't the creator of the show. I, Carly. But then there was one other instance, just one time where she referenced somebody that we knew was the creator and she ca she said his name was Dan, so that they later she went back and subsequent additions and his first name isn't in there anymore.
2 (16m 51s):
But, you know, it seems like maybe that was sort of somewhat intentional. So that events all of these people coming forward and talking about their horrible experiences with Dan. And of course he had a horrible childhood where he was mercilessly teased and it's like, you almost have to think like this is all just a bunch of miscommunication. Yes. Like Mr. Mr D was just talking about Yes. He was just talking about how like he could never get into Heather Burn's dress. And what he was probably really saying was like a woman like Heather Burns, even though she was a girl at this point, would never have a guy like
1 (17m 26s):
Correct or whatever and
2 (17m 28s):
Needing to put you in your place
1 (17m 30s):
For whatever. I mean was just so, and I was devastated, but I also was like, okay, but here's the thing here. And then, but there was also a lesson in this, which was, this was so interesting. Later in rehearsals he said, Mr. D said, thank God we have Agnes Scooch. She's the only thing in this show worth watching. Which is also horrible to say, but I was really fucking good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and so I was like, Oh, so this is so weird. Like, I'm not wanted, but I'm saving the show. This is so weird. I don't know what's happening. So I just feel like, yes, these are moments and it does, and when we interview guests, I am struck by the, the, oh gosh, what I, what I'm struck by is, and, and when I watch art now and listen to stories is the brief seconds it takes to destroy someone's life.
1 (18m 28s):
And then if you take it into even more to the extreme, because of course I'm interested in murder, how quickly you can kill someone. And I would say that goes true for emotionally or actually in real, physically kill someone. So it doesn't take long to snuff out a life. It doesn't take long to snuff out hope. And that is what I am left with constantly when our guests talk about the things that have happened to them, I'm like, Oh my God, it takes two seconds that that guy in that conference room took, it took less probably than 30 seconds to destroy all this hope.
1 (19m 8s):
And I, and I, I think that it's like ultimately I wish people could go back and heal themselves. So they don't say things like that. But even if you're not fucking healed, just keep your fucking mouth shut. Like, that's the other part. It's like, okay, I don't expect you to work on your shit, but keep your mouth shut.
2 (19m 26s):
Yeah. It's always an option to not say anything. Like I, I I I I think about that all the time. Like you don't, nobody needs to hear absolutely every thought that's in your head. In fact, 90% of them you should really just keep as inside thoughts because Yeah, because people, people who are careless with their words are usually people who are living somewhat unexamined life. And that's what I'm obsessed with that movie Defending Your Life, because this notion that you could go back and review your life, and I think the point of the movie was more about like, you know, just, just moral decisions that you make. But I would love to have, what if there was a stenographer who, who, you know, kept, kept notes on every single thing that ever happened to you in your life.
2 (20m 12s):
And you could, when you had this fear or this self-loathing that you couldn't really figure out, you'd turn to the stenographer and you'd say, When did I first get the idea that I was both so funny that I could save a show yet so unworthy that I couldn't whatever fit into this lead actresses dress. Like where did that come from? Because maybe that would've allowed you to say, Oh him, oh, I don't care about him. Like he doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.
1 (20m 45s):
Right. It's so true. And I, I, you know, I, I do keep sort of copious notes like on certain people the things they've said because I feel like they're, and I did this with my parents too, because I feel like in a family like mine, there's so much gas and a lot of families gas lighting where it's like, I never said that. And I'm like, oh yeah, on October 3rd, you know, you know, 1990 you told me that I was, you know, I have stuff like that because in my family people tried to make you feel like you were insane and that you didn't, they didn't actually say the things.
1 (21m 25s):
I'm like, this is insanity. And so with my existing family members, oh, I have a list. Oh, I should the conversation ever come up. I am one to remember and I'm a writer. So it's the other thing, it's like dudes and my writing teacher who I adore, kooky, kooky amazing. Terry said, you know, Anne Lamont said, If you don't wanna fucking be written about, don't fucking fuck me over because I'm a fucking writer. That's not really all she said, but you know what I mean? Like, you better watch it, man. People remember, people write shit down and people remember. So don't think you're getting away with any, That's the other thing I'm like, you thought bad parenting and bad, just whatever bosses you think you're getting away with something.
1 (22m 10s):
Oh no, no. Best believe somewhere someone is keeping a goddamn record and when your time is come, it's come. Yeah.
2 (22m 18s):
You know, my favorite thing in movies, my favorite sort of like trope or theme is when somebody thinks that they're about to never see this other person again. So they say some terrible whack shit and then there's like, the camera reveals that actually, or like when the tables turn, that's kind of my favorite. And I think it's because I would love to have that. I would love to have the experience in my life or I do love it when I ever have had gotten
1 (22m 48s):
It. Yes. Which is why Gina, I don't know if you've ever, it's the worst movie, but it is that device, the whole movie, which is The Mirror has two faces with Barbara Streisand. Oh, Mike and Jeff Bridges, I think, and it in her sister's the beautiful, it is the best fucking version of that. And her mom is Lauren B. McCall, the most beautiful woman. And at the end of course she comes into her own and look it's filled with bullshit about dieting and stuff like that. But it is so satisfying because she gets to come into earn her own and put everybody in their place. And she says to her mom the things that I always wish I could say to my mom.
1 (23m 32s):
And it was just so interesting and, and anyway. Yeah, so you need that man, I watch it over and over and everyone is like, why are you wa this is the worst fucking movie. And I'm like, I gotta watch it. It's my movie. It's my movie.
2 (23m 45s):
Yeah. It's your thing. Yeah. And you know, apropo like something so really insignificant having so much gravity. It, you know, it'd be like if, it'd be like if, oh, the only barrier to you getting to follow your hopes and dreams is that you have brown eyes and you know, brown eyes is just not acceptable. And so therefore, you know, automatically seeded out of the population of, you know, is people with brown eyes. And then, and because somebody tells you that and they seem to have some authority, like in the case of this guy, he probably never did anything in Hollywood, you know, because he was talking to a bunch of teenagers in a hotel
1 (24m 29s):
Sacramento. It's in a, in a Howard Johnson in S Town.
2 (24m 34s):
Exactly. But what's, what he's imbued with before I even walk in the door is he knows this is a person who knows. And if you think about the number of assholes you've run in, you've known in Hollywood, and to think every single one of them has probably had the opportunity to hold forth on what, how it works and who's, who's acceptable and who's not acceptable. And how that's just wildly skewed. The the, you know, the the, the future, the course of things.
1 (25m 5s):
It's just pretty, it's just making me, yeah. It's making me think like all of childhood adolescence and young adulthood is about being gas lit over and over and over. And like being told one thing that isn't true lied to. A lot of it is like being lied to because someone made the rules up that aren't even really rules. It is so, it's like a cult. It's like a cult of like, you're not good enough a cult. And now I'm realizing, and you know what's really interesting, where I am finding this is so crazy solace and accountability is on LinkedIn, this is the weirdest thing, but people on LinkedIn now, there's a lot of people, women and creators, recruiters, all these people coming out and saying, This is not your father's or grandfather's professionalism.
1 (25m 52s):
This is how we're doing things now and get out of the way if you cannot par. And I'm like all for it. I am all I, it it, a lot of 'em aren't in entertainment. It has nothing to do with the arts. And I am like for it, it's a lot of recruiters and it's a lot of like, there's this woman who is like a healthcare, online healthcare advocate. She's like brilliant. And she's also started her own business of like telehealth something. Anyway, she's dope. Her name is Lauren. And she says she drops this knowledge and she has nothing to do with entertainment. She's in the healthcare sector. And she's like, No, no, we don't do this anymore. And if you she, her thing this morning was, if a company or an organization says, Can you hit the ground running?
1 (26m 35s):
We really need you to, what you say, especially as a woman back is oh great, what are the systems set up in place to help me do that? What are you gonna do to help me hit the, And I was like, Oh my god, it's mind blowing to me. And I'm like, Yes. Because now we're turning the shit back on the, on the, on the people and saying, Wait, this is not gonna work anymore. You, you, this is not how we do shit anymore. And more and more people on LinkedIn are like, No, this is not how we do shit. And I'm like, oh my God.
2 (27m 5s):
Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I was just recalling the other day to somebody how when I was having, I had that terrible exp well mixed experience of doing that traveling theater. Yes. And, and hating it and calling my dad and calling my mom and being like, I hate it. And my dad always said, Hey, it's just three months you could stand on your head for three months. And it was only like within the last five years that I said, Oh, nobody can stand on their head for three months. That's not, that's not a good, that's not a good
1 (27m 35s):
Thing. No, you'll die. You probably die. Because
2 (27m 38s):
I literally thought that's right, you could stand on your head for three months. I can do this for three months. No, actually you can't. No. And there and, and I love whenever somebody breaks down for me, like in our language and stuff, where things come from and, and the more you know, the more you know that everything comes from just like this very small and select group of people, like our entire worldview and and a group of people that's shrinking and shrinking and shrinking
1 (28m 5s):
By the day. Oh they're dying. It
2 (28m 7s):
Is time to, yeah, it is time to say no we don't, we don't do that anymore. And you don't get to make up the rules anymore. You had your chance and you royally fucked it up. Today on the podcast we are talking to Paul Oakley Stal. Now you guys, I'm gonna go on the limb here, Say something I never say Paul was one of our top 10 guests to be sure We love talking to him. He's so engaging, he's so smart, he's so wise.
2 (28m 48s):
He's been on everything. He's been on every television show and in every play currently he's touring, playing George Washington and Hamilton. He has done it all, Seen it all live to tell the tale. I really, really, really enjoy talking to him and I know that you like hearing him. So Paul Oak
4 (29m 25s):
Nice to be here. You know, as I was saying, saying to you, life has been very, very tumultuous in the past month and you know, this had fallen outta my brain. And when I got the email that it's tomorrow or the email that it's in 36 hours, whatever it was, Yeah. There was a a momentary like I need to email them and say I can't do it. And then right after that I said, it's the perfect time to do that. To do this.
2 (29m 49s):
Oh yay.
4 (29m 52s):
Because things are turning a corner and you know, I want to talk about how I'm handling all this and the theater school, for better or for worse has a lot to do with how we handle our lives, you know?
2 (30m 2s):
Okay, good. I love it. That's a great jumping off point. So I always start by saying, congratulations Paul Oakley Stonewall. You survived theater school. And if I'm not wrong, I think you survived the same one that we did the theater school at DePaul.
4 (30m 16s):
Yeah. Okay,
2 (30m 17s):
Great. Yes, because Gary Mills is the, he mentioned you in in his episode,
4 (30m 22s):
We're in the same class. Yeah. He mentioned me. What did Gary Mill say?
2 (30m 26s):
He said it's so great to, he said it's so great. It was the same week that that strange loop one. And so he said, it's so great to see my classmates like, and I think he maybe alluded to the fact that you didn't have a great experience at the theater school and that, but wow. Have you made so much of your career and like good for you
5 (30m 48s):
The lab. Okay, so wait, I have to like, cuz we were talking about it, I have to say or ask what is making your life tumultuous right at this moment?
4 (31m 0s):
So my father passed away in January of, of of 20, where are we? 2022. You know, since, since Covid, none of the years don't matter this past January. And so my mom's doing okay but I think it has taken about eight or nine months for the actual grief to sit in. And so now I began to realize when I would speak to her and FaceTime with her that she's kind of not doing emotionally what she's kind of not doing well. You know, she's always been a loner. She's always been tough. She was like, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I realize I have to leave Hamilton, I've been in Hamilton for four years and the schedule of any doing a play, we know, but the schedule of a show like that touring and the pressure, I can't be there for her the way I need to.
4 (31m 51s):
And I just had to have that talk with myself and say, this isn't the biggest thing in the world. Your mom is the biggest thing in the world and there is no choice, there is no decision. You will leave and Hamilton will go on and on and on and on and on and maybe they'll ask you back sometime, but you gotta go. So just, you know, accepting that that's what I need to do. And then immediately when the decision was made, other opportunities have come that have made it, I can do these cuz it's easier for me to get to her and make time.
5 (32m 23s):
That, I mean, I feel like that. Yeah, I love that too. And I feel like the decision, it's interesting, there's a like a lot of work that it takes to get to the decision, but once you realize the decision, I'm the kind of person that sounds like you are too. And I think maybe like that you just go in that, that direction. Yeah. And then you make a decision and so, so good for you. And where are you located right now in the country and where is your mom?
4 (32m 48s):
I'm in a beautiful Airbnb in Columbus, Ohio. It's my last city on tour. So I, I really made sure that I went all out on this Airbnb. I would've done this for the rooftop deck of my Airbnb, but I was afraid I wouldn't get the wifi. And my mom's in Little Rock, Arkansas. My parents raised me in Chicago, so I'm a city boy. But as soon as I graduated from DePaul, they moved back south to Little Rock cuz they were just always more comfortable in the south and they were sort of the pillars of our family on both sides of the family. So they needed to be closer to relatives who were getting older back then.
2 (33m 24s):
Okay. So this is in a nice definition that you're continuing that and and being close to your mother to help her out. That's beautiful. So did you always wanna be an actor even when you were little?
4 (33m 36s):
I think if you asked my mother, I just always was one. She, this is, that's why this is perfect timing because the time I've been spending with her, I took a whole month off of Hamilton to be with her and that's when I made the decision to leave. She was just so thrilled to have me home and she would say, Oh, you know, even when you were three we'd go back south to visit grandma and they'd, they'd have like the Easter presentation at church and you would say, Ma, ma, I have something to do. I have something to perform. And she's like, Oh no you don't. You're just seeing the people up there. And you were like, No, no, no, I do. And she said, your grandmother was like, let him go up there, let him say whatever he says, it doesn't matter.
4 (34m 17s):
And she said, you stood up there and you said, Welcome to Easter Day. I have something to say. This is going to be a great day, have a happy Easter day. Like she, my mom still knows the poem and she still knows how she was holding her program over her place. And you know, we, we did it in kindergarten. We did a performance of, you know, like little Miss Horner, you know, the little nursery rhyme characters. And I was, I was Jack in the box and my mom's friend had made me a special costume and I'm sitting inside the box, literally in a box. So I'm in complete darkness at five years old waiting for my cue within the complete darkness.
4 (35m 4s):
I'm sort of adjusting my costume and I feel a hole in the crotch. So I have a hole in the crotch and I know that at any moment it's my turn, they're gonna open the box and I have to pop out and be jack in the box and in the darkness I solved the problem. I, you know, tucking, tucking the thing and holding it under my hand and getting it fixed and then coming up and doing the thing knowing what was messed up. So I had that secret that actors have, I know what's how the machine works behind the curtain. So even if five years old in that smallest example of things, we work in the darkness, we solve problems, we grow like roots in the ground and then we
5 (35m 44s):
Up, let's be honest, because my ass would've been like, I can't this, I'm, I'm Atkins the of my life,
4 (35m 56s):
But I, I think it was the best way I could answer her question of, did you always know you were an actor or when did you know it's, that's the moment where I knew I could solve a problem and do it. And that, that I knew the secret of acting is just being brave enough to find yourself in the moment and not show, never let 'em see you sweat type of thing. And also
5 (36m 15s):
Just the professionalism that you had at five, which was that you were aware that like this was almost a job, right. And to do a good job you had to hide the hole in the crotch. Right. And I feel like that is sort of a, what I would call a theater or acting intelligence that you seem to have clearly from a very young age and good for you that is like a pro.
4 (36m 39s):
Well yeah, and a lot of people depending on you. Right. Your show must go on. It's the show must go on. Yeah.
2 (36m 45s):
Paul, you just made me understand something I never understood before, which is one of the elements of the magic that I always think of when I think of life performance is the secret. I, I never really put that word to it, but it is the secret. Like I know what's going on backstage and I know, and, and after you've done that, when you watch a show, you think, God, that was a fast, quick change. How, you know, where were they all set up? So I have to ask, you know, what is a moment of your Hamilton experience where there was a delicious secret, you know, something went wrong or you know, you solved a problem like you're talking about without the audience knowing,
4 (37m 26s):
Wow, well you're gonna edit all this, right? Because I'm gonna name one but I I just feel like there's a better one brewing that I can't think of. So, so if I come back to it, I'll come back with a better one. But, you know, we have local dressers. So we, we, we do have a wardrobe crew, but each city you have locals that you meet for the first time and you have, you know, you get there on Tuesday, you do sound check and then you open. So you have that little 15 to 30 minutes if you have any quick changes to run through it with the person. And it's almost like you're more reassuring them than they are reassuring you. Cuz you're letting them know, I've been doing this tour forever, it's gonna be fine, don't worry, this is how this goes.
4 (38m 9s):
Just make sure you hold it so it's open with this side and we're, it's fine. Well, we got to, we got to whatever city we were in. And I, I could tell as I was describing the change and running through it that the person was more starstruck to be around Hamilton cast members. And I said, Oh boy, I'm in trouble.
5 (38m 30s):
That would've been me. That would've been me.
4 (38m 33s):
I'm in trouble. I'm in real trouble. So we get to my, my quickest change, which is about a 17 second change after wait for it and to stay alive. I go from Bear Parchment into full back into full George Washington regalia for a scene with Hamilton. And it's a, I'll do this, the sword is being put on me by someone else. I just reach my arms back, you throw it up over my shoulders, turn around the hats there, I put it on, gimme some water. And I go, well the sash, I mean, you guys know what happened? Like the sash was backwards, the hat, she forgot the hat. And then she went running and I was trying to tell her, nevermind, like I'll do the scene without the hat.
4 (39m 19s):
But she bumped into about two or three people. Like, so it turned into a domino thing and I had to then I have no choice because the ham Hamilton's like an opera. It just goes, there's, there's no Harold Pinter moment where you know, somebody can va until you get out there it goes. So I went on out knowing that I wonder what's happening backstage, You know, I hope she's gonna be okay. She
5 (39m 49s):
Probably Peter Pants. I was
2 (39m 50s):
Like high committing Harry care is what I
4 (39m 52s):
She she was gone the next day. Not and not, and not because, and not because Hamilton got rid of her. We don't care.
2 (40m 0s):
No, she was, she literally died of embarrassment.
4 (40m 4s):
She was so mortified. She was so mortified. She left. Yeah. Oh
5 (40m 8s):
My god. Well if you're, listen, I hope she's listening. She might be, because she probably knows, she probably looks you up and said, Oh my God, just this human talk shit about me and how bad I was. And here you are being lovely.
4 (40m 19s):
I've never, Yeah, yeah.
5 (40m 20s):
Okay, so here's the thing. My Hamilton story is that you, you didn't do the LA one, right? You're not in the L Okay.
4 (40m 26s):
I know all of them. We all know each other, but,
5 (40m 28s):
Okay. My Hamilton story is that I just real quick, I did not, I didn't know about Hamilton. I thought, oh, I write true crime and murder. What do I know about Hamilton? My nieces and nephew are all up in it. And I'm like, okay. And then a friend of mine was like, I got you a ticket to la I began to scream and wa at how wonderful the show was that I was seeing to the point where the person next to me that had a seat alone and were in masks and all, and the person next to me moved because I literally kept hitting her going, Did you see how brilliant that is? That, and the lady moved because I couldn't contain myself.
5 (41m 8s):
And this was only like a year ago. And I, and then at the end of the show I left up and started like making sounds and, and I had really good seats and I had the experience of being completely transformed in that, in that, during that show into someone who was like a firm believer in the genius of the show and the actors. And also, you know, I had to put a guy in his place. This, this guy in front of me was like talking shit about how this show wasn't as good as the other tour. He's like, was a Hamilton
4 (41m 44s):
Head, Oh, oh.
5 (41m 44s):
And I said, Excuse me sir. I said, I've never seen it before. And I will tell you, I when I are gonna get into a fist fight if you keep talking, because I couldn't do, I said, Could you go up there and do and move those chairs, throw those chairs around on stage, like these people? And he looked at me like, Oh my god, she's crazy. So I, anyway, the point is I am a firm believer in the power of that show in that it took someone like me who didn't want to see it and actually was like, okay, I'll go to be like, there is something genius happening on this stage, especially as like a Latina lady who has never seen anything about history that involves anyone looking even remotely like me.
5 (42m 25s):
I was like, I'm in, I'm in.
4 (42m 27s):
And it's, it's the power of theater too. It's a well made, I mean, you know, let's break it down and then we'll get onto theater school. It's, we use chairs, a turntable. There's no helicopters flying in, there's no limo, there's no Cadillac coming on stage and special stuff. We, we do make believe, we play, we play make believe with chairs and we change scenes and we changed from the battlefield to this simply by saying we're on the battlefield and believing it with our bodies. And it's really old school. That is what is the genius of it. So it's the power of theater, you're reminded. Oh, that's right. Theater used to be the women went out and hunted and then they came back and made a fire and told everyone about the hunt and we all sat and they wore the skin of the lion and one of them was the lion.
4 (43m 17s):
And that's, that's, that's it. That that's it. And if you, if you, if you give in, if you give into that, then not just as an audience member, as an accuracy, we sometimes you have people who are like, you know, six, seven years on Hamilton has become like, if you get in Hamilton, I'm in Hamilton, wait a minute, you still have to work and get better every day. Again, this is how I survived at theater. If, if there's a good way to circle back to theater school, one thing it implanted in me was no matter how I felt about it when I graduated, as Gary alluded to, I, I had a skill set that always made me want to get better into my dying breath.
4 (43m 57s):
So,
5 (43m 58s):
And, and I would say that that skillset then translate into success in the industry and beyond. So thank you to those skills that you probably came to the theater school with that were sharpened and then allowed you to really branch out and do a millions of things. But yeah, let's, we can circle back. So like, were you, like, were you like a kid that was like always destined for the theater school or like a theater school? Were
4 (44m 23s):
You I think, I think a theater school. My parents were of the intelligence, the, you know, the black intelligence. So they wanted me to be in that world and I in fact got a full ride scholarship to University of Illinois Champaign and Chemical Engineering. So I had that level of, of, yeah, I had that level of analytical and, and math. Math was a thing. But I always understood that math is what's gonna help me in theater. I always understood that it was called liberal arts and scientists for a reason, cuz art and science, the best scientists were the dreamers and the best artists were mathematical in some way about their art.
4 (45m 4s):
Not the best, not, not, not the best, you know, Michael, you know, but if you think about the Da Vincis and the Michelangelos, they were super curious and intelligent and mathematical about the world and into science. So I always wanted to have a balance and I, I knew that I'd go to a theater school, it was just a matter of how would I navigate my parents allowing that to be, it wasn't as hard as you think, but I did, I was savvy enough to know it at that late teenage age. I need to go to university of such and such and take a year to study chemical engineering, take Russian for a semester, take these other things, meet, meet the, kind of, meet the kind of kids who aren't theater majors, you know, meet, meet the actual world out there.
4 (45m 57s):
And so you did
5 (45m 59s):
That. So what did you do?
4 (46m 1s):
Oh, I went, I went to University of Illinois Champaign for a year.
5 (46m 5s):
So my mother went there too. So you went there.
2 (46m 9s):
But, so I have to, I have to interrupt for one second. Isn't this what Tramel did? Didn't he study chemical engineering before he went to, I can't believe you're not the first person we've had on here who started in chemical engineering. In fact, I think you're at least the third or fourth science person who ended up into theater. So like break, break that down for us for people who would, who could never gun to my head pass one course for chemical engineering.
4 (46m 33s):
Well, I mean, I've got to also come clean with, in your first year of that major, you can get all of your electives out of the way. So I was in like a film history class and like I, like I said, I took Russian and I was taking the basics, but I was not into like buildings, rocket ships or anything like that. Not in my first year. But, but, but I also, and I wanted to, I was the most pri and proper kid in high school and I wanted to party a little bit and University of Illinois is a party school and I wanted to experience that social networking and what that was about, whether I'm included or not.
4 (47m 14s):
You know, I met a, I met a guy who was three years older who had let me borrow his fake id, you know, to get into the bar that didn't care about your fake ID anyway. But you know, just those things that you have to do to, Yeah.
5 (47m 28s):
So, so did you, you go there but you had a plan, you were like, my plan is, I'll go. Okay. But like that's so interesting because you also were had the ability to wait. Like it reminds me of Erin bur lying and wait, it's like you're not, you knew, which by the way is my favorite song. And I cried like, oh, mine too.
2 (47m 46s):
Oh,
5 (47m 46s):
Because my parents are both passed and all the things and I'm sort of, Anyway, the point is, you, you had a plan, it's very hamiltones. You had a plan to go to U of I, you went to U of I, but always knowing that you were gonna then take a leap into a conservatory or you were gonna see how it went or what was that?
4 (48m 6s):
Well, I didn't know it would be a conservatory. I knew I just wanted to be in a big city. Like, I'm not even sure I knew what a conservatory was. I, I knew that I was going to not just go out, you know, with a suitcase and a dream on a bus to New York, but I I, I just didn't know what school I was gonna go to. You know, in my mind I thought it might have to be a school that I can pay for myself. Cause my parents might say we're not paying for this. That's a possibility. But when it came time to audition, as I researched the theater school and you had to audition, I had to tell them, this is, I'm auditioning. And so they drove me downtown Chicago with two of my high school friends who had been in the theater program in high school with me, who were running my monologue with me on the way downtown.
4 (48m 56s):
And I knew then that since they were gonna drive me down there, they knew like there's no stopping him. He's so, he's so, he's so conniving. Not conniving, but that's not the word. He's so calculated. He's so calculating that if we tell him no, we'll lose him. So rather than lose, rather, rather than lose him, let's understand that he clearly is going to do this. He loves machinations and figuring things out and he'll do it, but, and if we're not careful, he'll be off somewhere far, far away doing it. Correct.
5 (49m 32s):
Right. You'll go, yeah, you, you'll make it happen one way or the other. So that's some good par. That's actually some really good parenting there. Like instead
4 (49m 39s):
Of it's good parenting. Definitely.
5 (49m 40s):
Yeah. They got it. They understood you.
4 (49m 43s):
Yeah, they had already kind of gone the business route that they wanted. So they were like, ah, let's let the younger one bop around and see what happens. And, you know, who knows, maybe he'll maybe, maybe he'll get his dream crushed and we need to be there for him so he can go back into chemical engineering.
2 (49m 57s):
There you go. Oh, they've well played, well played parents.
4 (50m 1s):
So yeah, they played it. They played it well.
2 (50m 3s):
Do you remember your audition and what they had you do? Like the group part of it?
4 (50m 10s):
Yeah, they, yeah, it was, it was in a building that we never went back into my entire time at the theater school. It was kind of on the corner of Lincoln and Fullerton or Halstead, you know, know that, you know that halted Lincoln Fullerton trifecta. So if you go south along Lincoln, there was this sort of black gates in this building right there. I don't know what it is now, even if it's even there. But they sort of commandeered that building for the day. And between your audition you could be out in the little yard, the little courtyard area waiting for what's next.
4 (50m 51s):
Cause after your monologue they would either say thank you or they'd say, go wait. And so I waited, my parents were off having lunch somewhere with my friends and they called me back and we just had to move around. You know, I don't, I don't totally remember it, but I remember it was my first time in a group situation doing like, you know, what is this ball? Make it something else and throw it to the next person. And that kind of, and that kind of thing. But what I noticed more than anything is I was the only black person in the room.
5 (51m 20s):
What year we
4 (51m 21s):
Talking this? This is, this is 87.
2 (51m 24s):
Yeah. And I'm sure you were the only black person, person in your class
4 (51m 30s):
There. Ended up being there. Ended up being three of us.
5 (51m 33s):
Wow.
4 (51m 34s):
But I, I will say the
2 (51m 36s):
Class that we had,
4 (51m 37s):
I will say, Oh really?
5 (51m 40s):
In our class we had Stephanie, we had,
2 (51m 42s):
We had Stephanie and then you graduated with Erica. But that, Yeah, that was it.
5 (51m 47s):
Yeah. And that was 97 and 98, so we didn't anything. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's a sad state of affairs. Okay, so you noticed that. And what did you think? Like, is this normal for me, you to notice this at this age or what?
4 (52m 1s):
Well, it was, you know, at the University of Illinois, I had seen so many different types of people and in my high school we were about 35% black, 15% Hispanic and 50% white. So I was in a south suburb, you know, so I, I was surprised. But, and I also noticed that these kids seem to have a lot of money in my opinion. And that includes like the Gary Mills types to me. Maybe he didn't, I didn't know, but you know, I would see someone like him and the hair is perfect and the little polo is perfect. And I was like, Oh, I don't, I'm not sure they're gonna want me in here.
4 (52m 43s):
But it all worked out
2 (52m 45s):
Really. You thought that because you didn't come from as much money as the other people that they wouldn't want you in the program?
4 (52m 51s):
Well, I think it crosses your mind because I think it crosses your mind of how am I going to pay for this? Or do they think he can't pay for this? Or is is this, is, is this more elite than I thought it was? You know? Have I stumbled into, Yeah.
5 (53m 7s):
The other thing is, is just that I am, what keeps coming across my mind is like how little progress has been made in the American theater or in America. We, I mean it could get bigger and bigger. I mean we could go out, but like, especially in Chicago, in the theater in the eighties to the nineties, to the two thousands. So little fricking progress in terms of real equity in the conservatories and it's gross. So to hear that, I just think of a, How old were you? Were you like, cuz you had done one year?
4 (53m 42s):
Well, I, no, I had also skipped a grade when I was younger, so I actually, actually this evened me out now.
5 (53m 51s):
Oh, so you were the same age as family?
4 (53m 53s):
Everybody. Yeah, I graduated high school at 16 and then did that year at uni of I, so I was like 17, about to turn 18 in the fall.
2 (54m 1s):
Okay. Just like us.
5 (54m 3s):
Yeah. These are kids and like to look around. Okay, so you, so did they tell you, did they send you a letter? How did you find out from the theater school that you were in? You know what I mean?
4 (54m 13s):
Oh gosh, no, I think it was a letter. Yeah. It certainly wasn't a phone call. It was a letter. Yeah.
5 (54m 18s):
Did you audition for other schools?
4 (54m 20s):
No,
2 (54m 22s):
Just like me. This just like me. So, okay, I'll tell you day one I walked in and looked around at everybody and said, Oh, everybody already knows how to act. Like I thought I was gonna learn how to act when I care. These people had been commercials and movies and stuff like that. So what was your experience when you actually began and started to do the work?
4 (54m 47s):
I quickly realized that technique wise and skill wise, I was okay because I had, I see, here's the thing. I had lived a life as a black man in America, or a black young man, a black teenager, and discovering my sexuality. So a closeted black teenager. I had lived a life of knowing how to bob and weave and how to create something out of nothing. So when Don Iko would say, You're just gonna go bring everything for your bedroom and lay it out and then exist in your bedroom. I could do that. These kids were trying to like do something and I'm like, usually I just sit around.
4 (55m 29s):
I don't do nothing cuz I'm not included in things like that was my safest place to be. Or if you had to, you know, mime or pretend or speak gibberish for Rick Murphy, that was so easy for me. Those things were my safe place. It was when I would get to, when I got to third year analyzing scripts and Dr. Bella who told me, You're so intelligent, you should go into computer science because in her world, if you're black and intelligent, the way you're gonna make it is in the, the computer world or the finance world
5 (56m 5s):
She place for you
4 (56m 6s):
Here. She actually didn't mean it as an insult. She meant it like, you're not this raw hood urban talent. You're so intelligent. What are you doing here? You easily make it in the business world. That's all she meant, meant
2 (56m 23s):
Right. She meant,
5 (56m 24s):
She meant that you have choices, you should choose that as a black, probably as a black man. She didn't see the choice that there was any
2 (56m 32s):
Because so, because so few of us went on to actually make, you know, make their living and the arts. That's the reality of the
4 (56m 40s):
Thing. Yeah, let's exactly. For better or for worse, she also was, she knew the landscape of the business. She was like, there's not a place that I can see. You might get something here or there, but you're so intelligent being cast as the bodyguard or the the best friend, the asexual best friend or whatever that's gonna crush your spirit. But I had a plan but I, in my mind I said, but that's not how I'm gonna be cast as I'm gonna be cast as John. Cuz the high school I went to, I was cast as John Proctor in The Crucible and I was cast as Starbucks in one 10 in the Shade. So I didn't understand what she was talking about cuz the high school I came from, I was the one A as most of us were coming out of high school.
4 (57m 23s):
Sure,
2 (57m 23s):
Sure. That's interesting that, that you, that part of your arc is from John Proctor to George Washington. That's very interesting. But what about the casting when you were in the theater school, how did you feel about your casting while you were in school?
4 (57m 40s):
My third year, oh well second year intros, it was pretty okay cuz every they, you know, their goal was to give some equity there so everyone had a chance to do stuff. And then third year came and I was like, workshop, workshop, children show, workshop, you know, kind of thing. But then something happened, I was in a, the kid show Cinderella where I played just a background almost Mar Annette thing. It was soul crushing and I was like, why am I in my third year? But I'm not actually doing a role, I'm not actually acting. And meanwhile the people you would expect are doing, and it was what Dr.
4 (58m 21s):
Bella was probably trying warn me about. Well, in one of the workshops somebody dropped out cuz something happened in their life. Their parent got sick or something happened, they had to drop out. And Rick Murphy came to me and said, Hey, you've got the time cuz you're in the daytime show. Can you jump into this play in the workshop and do double duty? And I ended up playing opposite Jillian Anderson in Serious Money. And, and Carol Churchill's serious money. So it was a Carol Churchill play, it was really complicated. She was playing has Conor and I was her colleague Nigel Aal. And we were scamming everyone in the play, but only the two of us knew that we weren't even really those people.
4 (59m 5s):
We were, we had put on those gus. And so to have Jillian, who you probably know this from doing lots of interviews, was very ignored and very like treated as the crazy girl in the corner and me, who was very ignored the way the two of us put that together. I knew like, oh there are parts like this out there that I can find there, there are cool plays and cool parts and there's, Chicago is one city, but there's London, there's New York, there's the world, there's Sydney. So that was my key. And then in the fall of my senior year, they did working the musical and I was cast as Loving Al, which I grew to love.
4 (59m 51s):
But at first I ran to Betsy Hamilton and I said, Why am I cast as the black male who's a valet, you know, parking cars. And she was like, It's a great part. But you know, you know, sometimes you're so dumb as a teenager, you know, you're so like, I wanna play this other thing. But nobody in this school can do that role but you and then your other role is a great subtle role. The Mason, it's a great role that has a lot of detail with mine. So you're, you're good. But I had, I had it out with her that night and she said, Well you gonna quit the show or not cuz I need to know what you're doing.
4 (1h 0m 31s):
She wrote us, Well I, when that was presented to me, I said, well no. And she said, Good, so get to work.
2 (1h 0m 39s):
Oh, was she directing
4 (1h 0m 41s):
It? Yeah,
2 (1h 0m 43s):
Yeah. She directed all the musicals. Yeah,
4 (1h 0m 45s):
That's,
2 (1h 0m 46s):
Yeah, we had all the same professors and we've, we've had a few great Don Iko stories on here. Mostly what people end up saying is that he, and this is true for me, he was my champion. He was, I felt he was my only champion there. Did you have a champion or was it Dawn?
4 (1h 1m 3s):
It Don was my challenge. He was my silent champion. He never spoke, but he always kind of wink and a nod to me cuz but he, he again, he also knew how hard it would be. So he wasn't like championing me, it was Rick Murphy for me. Okay. He brought me back after I graduated to help him with the second year classes. And so I'd often sit in on the classes and so that, cuz I, I, you know, my presence would help them relax a little. I was the go between. So Rick Murphy was definitely my champion and Jim Ooff.
2 (1h 1m 38s):
Really?
4 (1h 1m 38s):
Which sounds crazy. I know, I saw it sounds nuts. But Jim Ooff in my senior year, the last week of classes, he, we all sat around in the class, the last 12 of us who were there, whatever it was, not too many. And he said, Sova, you're the surprise guy. You're the, you're the, you're the supernova. And I said, Why is that? And he said, Well, you're black. You came out, you're, you're gonna go at this world in a different way than everyone else. And I'll never forget, two or three of the kids were like, I thought everybody knew he was gay.
4 (1h 2m 19s):
Like, but that, that's like, that's like white privileged teenagers who want some attention. Sure,
5 (1h 2m 26s):
Yes.
4 (1h 2m 27s):
Were like,
5 (1h 2m 28s):
It's like also Hoff also Hoff for me too. He was the one who said, You're, you're the next Lenny Bruce. And I, I thought it was an insult at the time, but now I'm like, oh my God. He was trying to give me like the hood spa, the, the, you know, to go on and know. And so I am grateful. So I think what I'm hearing too is like hearing stuff about Rick and hearing what, what I always am is like everyone's champions look different and they're not always champions to everybody else. And they're, they're, they can be very problematic people for other people, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's so interesting. Some people,
4 (1h 3m 9s):
Whatever. I knew nothing about David Acho or what's the guy who was Bellas sort of
2 (1h 3m 15s):
John Jenkins. Oh
4 (1h 3m 17s):
No, I love John Jenkins. Was
2 (1h 3m 19s):
Mark the
4 (1h 3m 19s):
Music guy? No, no, no. I love Mark Elliot. I just saw him not too long ago. He was an acting teacher and he was very stiff to me. And he was sort of with Bella Bill Burnett? No, no, no. I liked Bill. This was acting teacher Bill was voice.
5 (1h 3m 33s):
I, I don't even remember. Maybe they got rid of that guy.
2 (1h 3m 36s):
Somebody we don't know. Yeah,
4 (1h 3m 37s):
He was there for a long, long time. But I think he may have left. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, there were some teachers that I never got, so I never really knew what their style was even I never got to know David a Coley. I never got to know some of these people. But Rick Murphy noticed in me that improv or thinking on my feet was, was for whatever reason, something I did well. And when I did the scene, it was never the same twice. Cause I was always alert. And I think that goes back to surviving as a black man in America. You have to be aware of what's going on around you. And so he helped me to, he helped me to feed that and, and help it grow.
2 (1h 4m 19s):
What's your, a few of your characteristics that are coming across to me in addition to this awareness and sense of self is also maybe your lack of fear. You didn't, you weren't cowed at the audition or early on in terms of, you know, your your talent level. Do you attribute that to your parents instilling kind of a, a sense of bravery and confidence in you? Or did you discover it truly on your own?
4 (1h 4m 48s):
I think it's twofold. I think if, I don't think they instilled it as a matter of purposeful installation. I think I watched them. So I witnessed it. And so you absorb what's around you. I watched my mom work a full-time job and come home and cook you, I watched that, I watched my dad, I watched it and I watched them deal with racism. I watched them save, save, save, save money and continue to move us to a different house every five or six years it would be bigger. Like I, I watched what they did, but I think also just, you know, watching TV and not seeing anybody who looked like me and so not going into auditions and situations with a sense of, I'll never get it.
4 (1h 5m 32s):
But going into situations like what do I have to lose? Oh yeah, it's, it's not, it's pro it's probably not gonna be me, but I'm sure gonna show them that they need to think about it.
5 (1h 5m 45s):
Right? Yeah. Right. And that, and that it becomes a mission to not prove yourself, but also to be yourself boldly and allow the opportunity at least to be in the ether that you could play that part. That you could do it if they were more open minded or they were more, instead of being like, how can I change so that they feel comfortable? It's like, how can I just do my, do my work, do the art?
4 (1h 6m 14s):
So Right. I I, yeah, I never tried to be, I never tried to be Gary Mills or Darren Boucher or I never tried to be that. I just said, well, if I'm playing Judas or if I'm playing Jesus in Jesus Christ superstar, this is how it's gonna be.
5 (1h 6m 33s):
Paul, how was your showcase experience? Did you guys, did you go to New York and la How was did you go, What happened?
4 (1h 6m 40s):
We only went to New York and, you know, it was fine. It was one of those things where everybody got a lot of attention and I got one or two nibbles. But, you know, I wasn't too worried about it because in April of senior year, myself and Yolanda and Zo, the other black female in the, in my graduating class, we drove up to Minneapolis and auditioned for this black show. This, they were doing a Caribbean adaptation of Madea called Pong by Steven Carter, you know, small regional theater.
4 (1h 7m 21s):
But she had researched it and said, we should do this, we should do this, you know, we should start our careers. Let's do this. So I had a car too, and she didn't, so we, you know, we drove up and it was more for her to audition, but I said, Well, since I'm here I might as well audition. Well, we got cast. Woo. So, so going out of, you know, for the last two months of school, we knew we had rehearsals starting in some show in Minneapolis, which just felt cool even if we didn't know if it was gonna be cool or not. And so the the cons, what is it called? The, that you just said The thing in New York? No, the thing in New York, the showcase it, it did, it didn't make or break me because I was like, yeah, I'm starting work soon.
4 (1h 8m 4s):
But, so I got some, I got some half nibbles from some agents, but it wasn't a, for me that didn't do much.
5 (1h 8m 13s):
Yeah. But were you, that that show, is that what Oh sorry, go ahead. Fu No, no, that's exactly what I was gonna say. So you, you, you went and you did the show and, and really when did you feel like, okay, like I'm gonna, or maybe you didn't, like I am an actor that's gonna make money being an actor, I can do this as a, as a, as a career.
4 (1h 8m 36s):
Well, that's a bit of a story. So I get there, the rehearsals and I was cast in a supporting role. And then the, the theater, they had a, they had a show from last season that was going to the National Black Theater Festival. And the actor who was playing the lead in the show I was in, he was the lead in that show and they wanted him to go to do the show Pill Hill, I think it was called, Down in North Carolina. So they came to me and said, Would you move up to the role of Jason, you know, Jason and Madea basically, and I'm a recent college graduate who doesn't know anything. And I said, Yeah, sure. So, so, so I start rehearsal and it's not going well.
4 (1h 9m 23s):
It's a lot of work and it's, it's, it's overwhelming. And the woman who's playing Madea is trying to get me to hang out and party and relax. So she's, after rehearsal on the sixth days, she says, Come on, the cast is going out for drinks. Lead your script. Please leave your script. You're always in your damn script. Come on out with us. And I said, No, just drop me off of the apartment. They had me living with her actually and her boyfriend until they got my housing ready. And I said, No, I'm not gonna go out. So I go home, she drops me off and her boyfriend was kind of a, a narrowed you well guy. And I'm on the phone actually with Jillian Anderson who had gone out to LA and was on some cop show that she thought was really dumb, called the X Files that was never gonna go anywhere.
4 (1h 10m 6s):
And she's telling me about how stupid it is and she's gotta wear a gun and her underwear and her panties and blah. And I'm like, Well at least you're working girl, don't worry. And I said, But Jillian, I think I might get fired. And she said, Well, you know, you might get fired, but I got fired from a job, an Allen Aborn play and you know, you, you move on. So keep working and if you get fired it's gonna be okay. And right then a knock came on the door of the apartment. And so I got off the phone with her. Long story short, some people had come looking for this, this boyfriend guy, and without going too much into all the minutia of it, we'll go have a beer one day and talk about it. They broke in and shot me in both my legs and they left me for dead.
4 (1h 10m 48s):
Wait a minute,
5 (1h 10m 49s):
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What the fuck they shot in your legs?
4 (1h 10m 56s):
Well, they shot through the door. So they didn't know where they had shot me. They, they thought they were shooting me in my head and my back, but I heard the hammer of the gun click. So I jumped away from the door and when the shots came through, they just hit me in my legs. So, you know, know fast forward to being, you know, re you know, I woke back up when the paramedics put the thing on my face and an evening of surgeries in the hospital and tined, you know, my mom flew up and I, I could not walk. And they said, Well you're never gonna walk again, but you, you may walk again but you're certainly never gonna dance again and you'll, you'll have a cane probably.
4 (1h 11m 40s):
And I had, I developed blood clots. It was just the whole thing. So now I was, now I was a 21 year old black gay closeted and I got addicted to the Coumadin and the painkillers. So I was a 21 year old black gay closeted drug addict in a wheelchair.
2 (1h 12m 2s):
Wow. So what happened? I'm glad you could laugh about it. I, my jaws still on the floor. Oh my god.
4 (1h 12m 12s):
So, you know, I just started doing the work to get better. I was like, I'm not gonna sit in this chair forever and I'm, I need to stop taking these pills and I need to just deal with the pain and work through it. And the city of Chicago was sort of waiting for, hoping I would live and hoping I would come home. And some of my classmates had come up to visit Matt Sharp and Amy Petes had come up to visit and Monica Char Beta I think came up. And so when I finally went back to Chicago, I did have the cane and a bit of a limp, but it was getting better every day. And I had this sense that I was going to be okay. Someone had dropped out of Frank go lot's production of good person of swan with Cherry Jones and they just had to replace one Yeah.
4 (1h 12m 60s):
At the Goodman. And they had to replace one like side character, didn't even have any lines. It was just a street hustler kid who was just filling out the ensemble. But Frank had a plan that throughout the course of the play, you'd see in opposition to Shante shoe TA's transformation, this boy would slowly transition into a woman. So I did have a sort of silent film arc through the play, which was right up my alley. I love that shit. So they gave me the part, those dummies. And the next thing I know, I'm at the, I'm at the Goodman and I'm doing this stuff.
4 (1h 13m 40s):
Did you
5 (1h 13m 41s):
Wait, did you have to audition or they just asked you to
4 (1h 13m 43s):
Do it or? It was, it was, it was an audition cuz they hadn't seen me and they didn't know how I would look. They didn't know like, is he really injured? Is he really, how does he look? But when I, so they, they reached out and said, Would you like to come in? Can you, can you come in? And I'm like, I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can come in, I can come in. And I showed up and Michael Maggio just like hugged me. Oh my God you're okay? And I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's okay. I have pain but I'm okay. And they had me do a monologue of some other character cuz my character didn't have any lines. It was Jim True's character Wang or whatever. Yeah. And he said, Okay Paul, you know what we're not doing doing all this bs.
4 (1h 14m 24s):
I want you to walk right up to the office you're hired cuz they start rehearsal like next week they, they needed to just get it done, you know. And I took it and I never looked back. So then Mary Zimmerman was a mentee of Franco Lotti. So of course she came to see it and said, Who is that athletic strong? And Frank goes funny story about you thinking he's athletic and strong, he's just come through this thing. And she said, Well can he read difficult text? And Frank said, I think so he doesn't have lines in this, but he strikes me as a really intelligent kid. And she had me just sit across the table from her and reads from the books of Leonardo DaVinci and she gave me the part.
4 (1h 15m 7s):
And then I was in notebooks of Leonardo DaVinci, the original cast and that was it.
2 (1h 15m 12s):
That is
4 (1h 15m 12s):
Amazing. And then, and then that was it. Yeah. That was when I said that thing I thought about Bella, that that there will be these kooky parts that will be, for me, I can find a world where next thing I'm doing journey to the West and I'm playing a, you know, invincible sea horse dragon, the creature. Like these are the things I knew I could do if given the chance.
2 (1h 15m 35s):
That's amazing. I, I I, something that's occurring to me as you're talking to is that one of your superpowers is, you know, and I wish all young people who are going into this profession could somehow absorb this quality, but of course you can't, which is that you never waited for anybody to save you or to, you know, shepherd you. Like you just from the beginning it sounds like, just always knew that it was up to you and that there was nobody was gonna come in like cast a magical spell on your legs. By the way, was somebody in violation of an equity rule when they put you in housing with this actress and her boyfriend?
4 (1h 16m 16s):
Yeah, but it was 1991. I see. And, and, and the housing was being prepared. So, so it was a temporary fix. In fact, in fact they were like, it's a hotel or you can stay in the guest room of your leading lady and you guys get a chance to sort of be around each other. He just happened to be living with her and it, they didn't understand that that was a thing.
2 (1h 16m 40s):
I see. Okay. Well
4 (1h 16m 41s):
That's, And I and I was not able back then to speak up and say, I need to get out of this. I I, I have a feeling he's a bad guy. You know, that, that's not gonna wash. That's not gonna wash. Right, right. You know, they're, they're trying to save money, you know, you know.
5 (1h 16m 58s):
Question, my next question is, so like, just being mindful of time like that we have with you, what would you say, like, it's interesting cuz you kept saying, you keep saying like, oh, then I knew and then I knew and then I knew. So are you still discovering like what you wanna do as an artist, where you wanna go? Like you're going through this tumultuous time with your family and you've decided to step back from playing George Washington and Hamilton. What is happening in, where do you wanna go? What do you wanna do?
4 (1h 17m 27s):
Oh, well, I mean, you know, I had stepped away from, I've stepped away from acting before I, I went to work in politics in 2007 when everybody was talking about it, but nobody was doing it. I left the business and went to volunteer for the Obama campaign and next thing I know I got hired as an actual employee and I spent eight years traveling the world. Here I am in New Deli in a, in a market of artisans with Mrs. Obama. I'm like, what am I doing? I'm like, when is someone gonna figure me out? You know, I'm in Copenhagen with the Queen of Denmark and we're hanging out and she's like, Do you wanna smoke a cigarette? I'm like, I don't smoke, but oh my God, this is so funny. Like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm in these situations where I couldn't have written a better script for me to perform my duties working for them.
4 (1h 18m 17s):
We're in, so we're in South Korea, we're, we're everywhere. So when that came to an end or when it was coming to an end, I was writing a lot of plays and Felicia Rasha had read one of them and that's how she picked up Immediate Family. And that went to Goodman and Mark Taper. And so I was kind of in that playwright mode. So I bounce wherever I like, I'm going back to work for Mrs. Obama after this
2 (1h 18m 42s):
By
4 (1h 18m 42s):
The way. Cause one, once you're in the family, you're always in. And I think she has a new book tour coming and it'll be a chance for me to help out. You know, it's not the same thing. She's not First Lady anymore. It's, it's more relaxed a little bit. But that's there for me to do and keep myself busy and then I can spend time with my mother.
2 (1h 19m 4s):
That's awesome. So it's good by the way, way to seamlessly work in your experience in the Obama administration. I was sitting here thinking like, we don't have enough time. I'm not gonna be able to ask him about it, but,
4 (1h 19m 14s):
Well I mean that's actually what has helped me with Washington the most.
2 (1h 19m 20s):
Of
5 (1h 19m 20s):
Course. So if someone were to say to you, cuz there's a lot of conservatories are like, you only are an actor, you must be an actor. What is your take on, if some, if a a person comes to you and say, Hey, I have interest in this, in that, what should I go to a conservatory where they're telling me like, you are an actor and that's it. What do you, what would you say about that? Because I wish that I had had more something to do, more things as a young,
4 (1h 19m 48s):
Yeah, I would say beware and go running from anybody who tells you you can only be one thing. I mean one thing that happens with Hamilton a lot is afterwards, there are a lot of young people who wanna meet us and get a play Bill signed and the cast pre covid, they would make fun of me cuz as we went down the line signing programs I would take the longest. So I, I just decided to always wait and go last because I wanna talk to these kids and say especially the young girls who are dressed as Eliza or Angelica, Peggy. I'd say, Oh, that's a beautiful outfit you have on. What do you think about Aaron Burr And nine times outta 10, Oh he's actually my favorite.
4 (1h 20m 30s):
Or Alexander Hamilton's actually my favorite. So why aren't you dress as them? Well my mom and dad and the mom and dad are standing right there and they sort of try to chime in. I'm like, I'm not speaking to you speaking to this intelligent 10 or 11 year old who is telling you she wants to be Aaron Burr. And I will say, well you and listen, we're not talking about sexuality or gender or anything. We're just talking about access. We're talking about access to what someone's told they can do or not do. So I really, you know, one of the saddest things about leaving the show is I, I won't have as often the opportunity that I have to tell young people, please be well rounded.
4 (1h 21m 11s):
I do ask them, what do you wanna be? And when they don't know, I say, Oh, thank goodness you don't know cuz you're way too young to have made that decision. You need to do eight or nine things. Do them all a hundred percent and the thing will find you.
5 (1h 21m 25s):
Ah, I wish someone had said that to me. That's beautiful. You know, and the other thing that I'm Paul, that I'm really aware of is that as you go through the world, whatever you do, Paul, you are going to be that ambassador for young folks, whether it's with Michelle Obama or the cast of Hamilton. So I feel like you, you are the kind of artists and the kind of human being that whatever environment you are in, you're gonna be an ambassador for choice and, and, and well roundedness. So I, I have no doubt that wherever you are on the Obama tour book tour, you're gonna be there and people are gonna be drawn to you because it's about you. It's not necessarily about the job you're doing.
4 (1h 22m 6s):
Well. Well you gotta be careful with that. I was talking to one of my friends who, you know, I told him I'm going back out with her and he's so excited. He's like, Oh, you know, you've upgraded your clothes and you're gonna just be, I'm like, when you're working in a situation like that, the the goal is, and the the dictum is to not stick out. So it's that fine line of where do I find my, in my free time to do that. But when I'm at work with her, it's this, it's this thing of like you are, which is a fun acting experience experiment for me. I love being the press guy who's that's what I'm doing.
4 (1h 22m 49s):
Yeah, yeah.
5 (1h 22m 50s):
You can do it and also you can do it. Yeah. I mean it's not, but I just think you're the kind of person that people are gonna find you in an elevator and be like, Hey, how do I, how do I do what you do? Because I, I can sense that. Or like, how do I do this? I can, Yeah,
4 (1h 23m 5s):
Yeah. That happens quite a bit.
2 (1h 23m 7s):
So I, I wanna have an opportunity to ask you about your production company and some exciting stuff you've got going on there. So please tell us about,
4 (1h 23m 17s):
It's called Kernel for to productions. Kernel for to is an esper to word that means core power. And I got a few short films out that have done very well on the festival circuit. A third one is in posts, it's almost Ready. And a fourth one we have just started entering festivals and it's called Wolf and Waiting and it's a spy thriller where I'm co-starring with Danila Carrera, who you may ask. Well, he's the most famous television actor in Mexico. And, and he's a model as well. And he's the most famous actor in Ecuador, which is where he's from. But he works mostly in Mexico.
4 (1h 23m 58s):
And how did I meet him? You may ask. I I was on tour with Hamilton and I play a lot of tennis and I got hooked up with this tennis pro at this local place as, as we're on the road, where was that? Naples or somewhere in Florida, A year and a half ago, two years ago. And the Tennis pro, he enjoyed hitting with me and he said, Oh, I have a 17 year old daughter who'd love to see the show. And I said, Yeah, I'll help you get tickets, no problem. And he said, you know, you're an actor, you know? Right. So, you know, I have a nephew who's an actor and you should get in touch with him cuz he wants to branch out and, and do more interesting things.
4 (1h 24m 39s):
This nephew is Danila Carra. I, I, I said, yeah, and you know how it is y'all. I'm like, Oh, you have a nephew that wants to be an actor or is an actor okay. And he's like, Yeah, he wants to do some English language stuff. I'm like, Oh God, okay. So he gets me in touch with him and I Google him and I was like, Oh. And I'm like, he's not gonna wanna work with me. But he has become like a brother to me. He is now. I mean, wait till you see this film, You know, it's crazy. So that's where we're going with the production company. I'm trying to uplift others who are doing projects, my friends who are doing short films and silent short films.
4 (1h 25m 23s):
I'm trying to put them all on my website and create kernel for to.tv and kind of create my own network where people can pay and come and watch my stuff.
2 (1h 25m 32s):
Oh, that's a great idea. I love that. Yeah. And because we have like two more minutes, I just wanted to ask you, you have this really interesting connection to Ireland and I was wondering if you could tell us about that?
4 (1h 25m 43s):
Yeah, yeah. I'll quickly tell you it. I hate to have to do it quickly. No, you don't have to do quickly.
2 (1h 25m 49s):
If you, if you have a few minutes, that's fine. I'm just, I'm just saying
4 (1h 25m 53s):
Yeah. My voice, my, yeah, my voice lesson is gonna call soon. Okay. So I, I, when, when the Covid shutdown happened, I got squirrly and I wanted to go somewhere. And this woman who was in a writing group with me, she lived in Ireland, so she would be zooming in from Ireland and she said, Paul, do you know about Frederick Douglas? And I said, I'm a, in my mind, I said, I'm a college educated black man, I know Frederick Douglas. And she said, Yeah, did you know he spent four months in Ireland when he was escaping for his life because his former slave owner came after him when he released his autobiography. And I'm like, What? No, he didn't what you're talking about.
4 (1h 26m 34s):
And as I researched this, I've realized that's where he wrote some of his most incredible speeches cuz he went over to Europe running for his life and found a freedom. You know, the people on Ireland were looking at him like, Oh, hey, what's up? Like they weren't, and he'd never experienced that. That white people could actually just be like, Oh, we, we judge you based on who you are. And that's when he became who he became as an international orator and leader. And when he came back, he was like, I'm going to Abraham Lincoln's office. I'm going to, I'm, he became who he became. So I decided I wanna write an eight episode limited series about this. And I decided I need to go to Ireland to research and I'm just gonna get there.
4 (1h 27m 17s):
And I did. And I met these two young guys who are, who were opening a music institute for young students, diverse students. And now I've become a board member of that. I was all over rte I've got producers interested in helping me do this. So I'm actually going back in March to do some concerts at the new music hall, the Lark that's opening at the, in the Irish Institute of Music and Song. I traveled the whole country to from co to Belfast because that's where I just followed in Frederick's footsteps. Wow. And Ireland's become a second home.
2 (1h 27m 53s):
Oh, that's so beautiful, by the way. What a grand tradition that also James Baldwin and Nina Simone, all these people have had to to Europe. Right. To find, to just feel like a regular person.
4 (1h 28m 4s):
Yeah. And you know, y'all, I really feel like that's what's coming for me. I I have had that experience. I went and lived in Stockholm in 99 and 2000, but this Ireland thing is, you know, I've been there for, I was there for three months and then I went back for another month.
5 (1h 28m 22s):
Yeah. You're gonna live there in some point for longer.
4 (1h 28m 24s):
That's, I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not put down my country. I love my country, but I'm feeling like there's also a chance to do theater there at the Abbey in Dublin. And there's, there's just an opportunity to work over there.
2 (1h 28m 39s):
Yeah. And it's good to have options, honestly. You never, you never know what's gonna happen here. Thank you, Paul. This has been great.
5 (1h 28m 49s):
It's brilliant. It's, you are, I rarely feel at the same time comfortable around someone and yet also wanting inspired to do better. So thank you for that.
4 (1h 29m 3s):
Thank you. Well, let's all thank Mills for mentioning me.
5 (1h 29m 6s):
Yes.
3 (1h 29m 20s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PCI are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina pci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Inc, please visit our website, undeniable riders.com. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.