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AI After Dark is a podcast hosted by Alex Gras, venture capitalist at Mercury, focused on how real companies are built once the hype fades and the hard decisions begin. Through candid conversations with founders, CTOs, and operators, the show cuts through buzzwords to talk about people, systems, risk, and the trade-offs that actually matter. Alex brings a background as an operator, founder, and revenue leader, with a belief that technology matters, but people come first. This podcast is for builders who care less about trends and more about what lasts.
00;00;00;08 - 00;00;28;27
Unknown
So what? What what do you what are you working on? Yeah. So I guess, like, when I, when I look up the website. There's like nothing. It's super stealth. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. So it's. Yeah. Currently just a splash page with nothing on it, which is intentional, but. Yeah. So working on building, a company that's basically a mix between a private secure wallet and a, a basically a service.
00;00;29;00 - 00;01;01;22
Unknown
So it's, it's for basically clandestine operations for in the but using financial infrastructure that is created for that, I guess is the best way that I'm trying to phrase it. So imagine that, all of these national security operations that we have overseas are, you know, conducted in a way that protects the person and, you know, their identity and what concealing what they're doing and all these other things.
00;01;01;22 - 00;01;20;20
Unknown
But imagine that all of that's done, but at the very first step, how they get paid or distributed money or how the operation begins is the part that we don't do well. So I feel like the only way to explain this is like, you kind of have to go maybe into your life story a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;01;20;20 - 00;01;47;22
Unknown
Did you end up in a situation where. Yeah. So trying to build an I native clandestine? Yeah. Yeah. Operation. Yeah. So, when I was 25, I was working at Williams and a law firm in DC doing what was. I don't even think. I think the term had just kind of blown up, but people were saying cybersecurity and we needed to, you know, make sure that we weren't clicking on phishing links.
00;01;47;22 - 00;02;27;01
Unknown
And there's that big FBI ransomware, like, rootkit thing that was occurring across the nation on all windows machines, if you remember that time. But anyway, so that I was doing what people now refer to as like cybersecurity then, but at a young age, and I had a friend from JMU who knew that I, I studied computer science and was really into kind of this, offensive security, which is more just like figuring out where there's vulnerabilities and how do I break things like more on the hacking side.
00;02;27;04 - 00;03;01;03
Unknown
And so kind of saw like a fit for me to be able to go into this like different kind of cyber role. But he didn't tell me like where it was going to be and which agency just asked if I like was interested in government work and they just like, like slip you a card and they're like, yeah, no, I mean, I mean, luckily it I mean, he was he was a close enough friend that it was like it kind of made sense that, he would just recommend me for this, but I had I mean, he gave me, like, zero context.
00;03;01;03 - 00;03;23;05
Unknown
So it was like, after I got passed off to, like, a point of contact at this big defense contractor, you know, it was like they handed me a page of like, 60 pages to fill out about my whole life, like, background going ten years back, like everything I've done. Like, have you smoked weed? Like. And how many times and how much money?
00;03;23;05 - 00;03;52;28
Unknown
Ounce. I mean, down to like, very like detail oriented, you know, package that I'm filling out and this is all by hand then now it's all on the computer thing I yeah, yeah. No thankfully not on Facebook, but but yeah. So it took forever. And then they sent they sent me like a letter and like mail and was like, here's you're going to go here for your interview, like, don't take your phone and yeah, just show up.
00;03;52;28 - 00;04;14;20
Unknown
And so I go to this location that, is classified. But it's weird because they, they do a lot of the polygraphs at this location. But there's also like work being done at this location, which is weird to me because what's going through your head, through all this? I mean, you know what you're signing up for a little bit, or you're just like, you're trusting your friend.
00;04;14;25 - 00;04;30;29
Unknown
Yeah, I'm trusting my friend completely, and I have no idea what I'm actually signing up for. And they don't actually tell you in these interviews what you're actually doing until, like, day one, until you pass everything right, until they say like you've been verified, you've passed your polygraph, you've done this, you've done that, and you know, it checks off.
00;04;31;02 - 00;04;49;22
Unknown
So I actually had no idea. So it was only until day one that I got like the walk through and everything, and then finally got to the point where I'm sitting down in this, in this room and they like, tell me what my job will be. And I was like, I thought they were joking. Like I literally thought it was a joke.
00;04;49;22 - 00;05;07;06
Unknown
I said, no, no, no, no, no, I don't think you're hiring the right person for this. And they were like, no, no, no, we're going to train you. And I was like, so, so sorry, but you accepted the job without totally knowing what's going on, right? Okay. Yeah. What what convinced you to take the job? I think it was the allure.
00;05;07;06 - 00;05;29;22
Unknown
Like, I knew, obviously, like, the day one interview or like, the first time I had there from that letter, like, you see the CIA visitor center, like logo. So you know that. I mean, I knew who I was going to be working for, but, yeah, the job I didn't know. So I was taking a leap of faith to say, I want to do something that serves like a mission.
00;05;29;22 - 00;05;57;17
Unknown
And I had grandfathers that served in the Navy and Army in World War Two, and it just kind of felt like I wanted to do something in service without maybe, you know, being in the military. So it was kind of like a way for me, I think, to feel like I could do something on a larger scale and like the law firm also gave me like really a lot of insight into, like, the political world in that sphere in DC and how how things kind of operate and scare.
00;05;57;17 - 00;06;19;17
Unknown
It's kind of scary, really, is kind of like House of cards, like, the show. But I was like, you know, I want to I want to be a part of, this intelligence community. It's kind of like the draw that I feel. And also, you know, everyone I think that experienced, whether you were like, 13 years old, which I think I was 13 at the time of 911.
00;06;19;17 - 00;06;39;27
Unknown
But I think, like a lot of people in their teens and, eight, you know, 18 and 20, a lot of people went into service. And I think I was one of them that felt like, you know, we, you know, there's a war on terror like I brought to, you know, our home, our homeland. And so doesn't happen often.
00;06;40;01 - 00;07;00;22
Unknown
Yeah. So I think like that was also a big driver like you saw a big a lot of hiring that happened after, you know, 2001 and, yeah. So is there like, now a gap in your resume where, like, there's a whole few years you can't talk about? I can, so it's weird, like, and I didn't run this podcast through the peer review board.
00;07;00;22 - 00;07;23;09
Unknown
Sorry. But I mean, I will afterwards, but I can say like, I know my cover is rolled back and I'm not going to say anything that gives away like any, you know, methodologies or places or anything like that. But I think, yeah. Like it's you can talk about it on your resume in very broad strokes and they have to approve it.
00;07;23;09 - 00;07;48;15
Unknown
So they like approved an unclassified resume for me. But it really makes no sense. Like if someone wants to read it, it just sounds like buzzwords. Yeah. It's just like it sounds like a consultant speaking. Yes. Yeah. Like computer network operator and like, you know, secured systems and you know, but it's a synergies. Well that's decent. Yeah. But but it's not saying, you know, like it's not saying like, you know, hacking adversaries to gain intelligence.
00;07;48;15 - 00;08;09;25
Unknown
Right. And like it's not it's not saying that, but but I mean, everyone knows that that that's what the agency, you know, does is like we, you know, protect, you know, our country from things that are foreign. And so we are gathering intelligence all over the world and from different various means. So, you know, it's not like people don't know that.
00;08;09;25 - 00;08;31;08
Unknown
I just can like go into detail about it in a resume. But like, yeah, but it is, it is a weird like song and dance because like obviously people write books, right? A lot of people like leave, write books, go on podcasts. There's like there's drama around and mystique around the unknown, right? Yeah, yeah. So what, and what convinced you to leave?
00;08;31;11 - 00;09;00;08
Unknown
So it was a really weird time, I think, at the agency was just post Covid, and Covid was really a horrible time there, I think, because it really divided people. I mean, just like it did outside of work. Right? Like families were divided people, felt really strongly politically on one side or the other. Right. And it kind of was this weird, you could feel the tension that you never felt there before because we were all there for, like, this mission.
00;09;00;08 - 00;09;34;16
Unknown
And then it became about like, you know, this this virus became very I like, you know, I don't know, just very weird for people inside. And so it was like trying to balance that. But with all of the, the white House is the one who gives, like, most of our direction because, like, we don't have a top like with W, there's like, there's Congress and then there's the white House, but there's different, streams of funding that happen and different authorities that happen.
00;09;34;18 - 00;10;05;26
Unknown
I won't confuse you, won't go into all the authority numbers, but like, basically for the agency, like we don't really have like, oversight. Oversight, like DFW does. We just have like, basically like white House and then some special operations that get like direct congressional funding. But all that to say is, when all of this was happening, funding and certain essential operations became this weird, like, cutting back on time, people rotating in and out.
00;10;05;26 - 00;10;32;12
Unknown
And it it was just it made it so that I felt like in some ways, we were more efficient, but in also ways I feel like the teams and like the morale was really breaking down, started to break down and that environment also creates a really Machiavellian environment. Unfortunately, they hire like you go through all these personality test to and they hire all these type A control freak people, right, that have a little bit of risk to them.
00;10;32;12 - 00;10;56;10
Unknown
Otherwise they wouldn't be there. Right. So like but when you put all of the same people into a room like that, it becomes very like, I think people start getting like backstabbing over little things, right? Or like wanting to make sure that they look better than you do. And it was. Yeah, it's just political. So it's kind of like, you know, I did not like that part of it, right?
00;10;56;10 - 00;11;15;26
Unknown
I was just trying to do the job, and I wanted to do it in a way that was like advancing our technology. And, you know, a lot of times, though, the people at the top are playing the political game and you're just trying to, like, be creative or do something different. And you don't realize that, like, they just want you to stay in the box, right?
00;11;15;26 - 00;11;42;09
Unknown
And as like Steve Blank describes it, like you're the person that's trying to be creative or do something different or trying to move the needle is like called a disruptor. And they are actually looked at in the private sector as like being those are good people to have. Like startups love disruptors. They're like, heck yeah, we have this person like trying to make this better, trying to figure out a path forward.
00;11;42;09 - 00;12;16;23
Unknown
Right. And the government, a disruptor, is seen as like a black sheep that you're not in line, you're not stepping in line. You're not, you know, doing what everyone else wants you to, to be doing. And so it's a really weird like dichotomy. And so it's. Yeah. So it was it was tough. But I think post Covid made it hard for me to stay because I was kind of getting into a place where I could I could, I could have like probably gotten a promotion to a 14 GS 14.
00;12;16;23 - 00;12;44;12
Unknown
It's just like the scale you start at, like, I don't know, 11 and or and some agencies, it's, it's different. So I'm just speaking about CIA but like then you go up and there's different steps within each number. And so I was actually a contractor for a long time before I went converted to staff. And so when I converted, I was like made a career and I was like a GS 13, step eight or something like that.
00;12;44;14 - 00;13;06;02
Unknown
But that, that just means in, in a long a short story, I should say that, that it just means that you're a little bit you're getting into a position where you're having to to lead people, you're leading a team. And then just 14, I think you're really dealing with budgets and really managing a much larger, much larger team.
00;13;06;02 - 00;13;40;14
Unknown
Before you go to a yes. 15. Or an sis or an sis, which just means like you are at the top of your government career and that's like you stay there until retirement, but that's like you've you've really worked, to get there kind of thing. So it's anyway but like, I think having seen where that like was going to lead, it was taking me away from like things that I like to do the most, which is like solve really hard problems, be creative, be an operator.
00;13;40;14 - 00;14;01;12
Unknown
And there wasn't like a trajectory for those type of folks like they did. We didn't have like, oh, go keep doing the science stuff or keep doing the operator role. Like it was more like, you don't do that. You have to go into this like leadership kind of role. So it was kind of like a weird you're getting away from the actual doing and now needing to lead a guy.
00;14;01;13 - 00;14;20;29
Unknown
Yeah. And I not that I don't mind, like, I look, I like people, I get energy from, from working on a team. But I also am one of those people that I do need. I'm like a weird, extroverted introvert. Or the opposite. I can't figure it out yet. What? I mean, like I need to recharge, but like I also get energy from people.
00;14;21;00 - 00;14;37;04
Unknown
Okay, but I do need a lot of recharge, so I don't know what that's called, but I feel like it's, I remember like the old school Priuses. Right? They would recharge on the break. Yeah. And so you could see that, like, okay, you're recharging when you break, but ultimately you still need to, like, plug in. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.
00;14;37;04 - 00;15;06;16
Unknown
Exactly. So it's not that I didn't mind that. It's just like I think we were getting away from operations and also we were becoming super, super risk, adverse. So we weren't taking the types of risks I thought that we needed to take in order to keep up with our adversary. So I, I always this analogy is always funny to me because I felt like we'd go to this orbit review board, which, which means like you're you're giving them your whole operation, what it's going to do and all the risks involved.
00;15;06;16 - 00;15;32;15
Unknown
And then they like, approve it or don't approve it. And so I felt like every time we went up for review would be denied. And I kept saying like, it feels like you're playing poker with like, China, Russia, like North Korea, all these other all these huge players. Iran. Right. And in order to play poker, like most good poker players, like, we'll tell you like you don't you don't you fold a lot.
00;15;32;15 - 00;15;56;05
Unknown
Right? Because you're trying to like hedge for the your best bet, but you don't fold every single time. Right. And so it felt like we were just folding every single time. And I'm like, we're never going to win if we don't even like hedge a bet, right? If we don't even compete, if we're not even a player. And so and not saying that the J isn't doing anything, that's not what I'm trying to convey.
00;15;56;05 - 00;16;20;06
Unknown
Just I was in a very small niche of you know, cyber operations. But it is becoming harder cybersecurity circling back to the very beginning. But cyber security is getting so that there's all of these tools now that exists and AI and has made this a lot easier to do. But now there's there's ways, right, that offense is defining defense faster.
00;16;20;06 - 00;16;49;09
Unknown
Right. And so like now I still think offense will always win because you only have to be right once. Defense you have to be right all the time. Right. And that's impossible. It's an impossible equation to solve for. But I think with offense, like an AI, it's you're really seeing where it can now find vulnerabilities. It can now do full, full remote code execution from start to finish without a human like intervention.
00;16;49;12 - 00;17;15;06
Unknown
And this is like, I think this was released by anthropic recently. Yep. Yeah. And so it's it's happening. You know, I haven't done an evaluation on that yet, but it's it's happening and it's happening fast. And I think I don't even think we've even really scratched the surface of what's going to be possible in the next five years with AI.
00;17;15;06 - 00;17;43;21
Unknown
So I but circling back to what I'm building and why this is all important is because when I left the agency, I had gotten a lot into, the Web3 crypto space because I was just kind of volunteered to figure that out. Blessing in disguise, I guess. But when I was looking at how we funded our operations, I was like, wow, these are really.
00;17;43;24 - 00;18;12;05
Unknown
We're using the same shell companies over and over again, and we're distributing funds in the same manner. There's no way that and our adversaries don't know, are these fingerprints right, these signatures that we've created over time. And so when I went and left China, I went to Chainalysis, which is a blockchain, tracing forensics company. So they have a tool that you can, kind of trace your flow of funds in crypto.
00;18;12;07 - 00;18;48;14
Unknown
And they have like multiple different chains, and now they have an AI piece that they're building to it to, which will be very interesting to see. But long long story short, short story long short story long I mean yeah, yeah. So short story line. But, basically, this is an enjoyable story. Yeah, yeah. Working at Chainalysis, I figured out that, you know, our adversaries can probably see everything that our national security operations are doing within these tools that exist, because it's kind of it became their data became intelligence without them realizing that it became intelligence.
00;18;48;17 - 00;19;24;21
Unknown
I mean, I'm sure they realize it. They do realize it now, right? But as they started out, they didn't realize over time, like, oh, I'm giving like, is this tool right? It's it's sold overseas. It's sold everywhere. It's an international company. So you can by gaining this data, see these large funds of money flowing into certain exchanges and certain wallets and, and the way that the US was operating, it was, to me, not good tradecraft and very easy to see on chain.
00;19;24;23 - 00;19;52;06
Unknown
And so and these these funds are serving what purpose they're serving like, they're, they're serving multiple different purposes. One being like purchasing infrastructure to run cyber operations. Right. So we need to buy servers in certain locations, or we need to buy servers even domestically to be able to do remote ops. Right. But either way, you don't want to pay for it and say, okay, who's paying for this?
00;19;52;06 - 00;20;26;02
Unknown
Right. And that's something that we've done for a very long time. Right. But it's all been in cash. Cash, as you know, is very hard to to do these days. To do large amounts of cash, like, you know, specially with inflation. Yeah. So, but to also just have people meeting with suitcases of cash or like bags of cash in parking lots or flying people overseas with bags of cash, like the security, the CCTV footage, like everything is harder to stay understand and to stay clean it.
00;20;26;02 - 00;20;49;23
Unknown
Yeah. So it's it's it's really we're not built for it anymore and so and we're even not not built I mean that's a longer tangent on the side. But even doing undercover operations, on from a Humint perspective is so much harder. We all have a device now. It's fingerprints. Everything we do because we have a personal life, right?
00;20;49;23 - 00;21;10;07
Unknown
And then we have that life. But everything, it's so it can be so easily linked now with everything that tracks you, follows you, even all the apps on there that you know, you have to say, oh please, on track while using this. But like, you know, there's metadata leakage. There's everything leakage. There's what are they called, the ad track.
00;21;10;09 - 00;21;40;07
Unknown
Like all of that stuff like, the mobile data, everything is tracking. So just, you know, be aware of that. But like. But it makes it so much harder. But we're we're just trying to. Newman. The name of the company that I'm building. We're just trying to make it so that the operator does not have to worry about paying for stuff and that their cover is safely, like, secure in that manner.
00;21;40;07 - 00;22;09;26
Unknown
So not saying that we're going to obfuscate all payments, because that's impossible with the blockchain, because it's an immutable database. You can't delete payments. It's all going to be auditable. We're just trying to to make it so that the linkage between, wallets in between who is operating them. We're just trying to create something that is private and secure in that manner, not trying to do anything illegal and not trying to do anything that's like nefarious.
00;22;09;26 - 00;22;33;19
Unknown
We're just trying to use AI to to help us. Be more intelligent with how we do this. Right. And that's, that's where I comes in, in with Web3, right? It's kind of like it's going to be like a marriage of the two, which is nice because the blockchain gives you that like cryptographic signature. Right. And then I will be able to automate.
00;22;33;24 - 00;22;56;24
Unknown
So it's like kind of having both things will have kind of this like middle piece, this black box that we want to help. Yeah. And when you say I will help automate what is it automating. Exactly. So this is a more of an internal tool. It's an internal tool. So it won't ever see like I don't want a customer to have to deal with like the things that you have to go to set up crypto wallets on the outside.
00;22;56;24 - 00;23;15;22
Unknown
I don't know if you've played with crypto or if you have any. I mean, yeah, so some of them, especially the high privacy ones, can be a pain. To set up. You have to make sure that you have like a certain VM running. You have to make sure that you have Tor or VPN, or you have you know.
00;23;15;24 - 00;23;36;22
Unknown
Don't save your seed phrase online. Right. Or all all of these like steps. Right. And it's too many steps for like a normal person to do and like keep secure. And I know that humans are the we're always the ones that make the mistake. Right. Like in cybersecurity, it's like the human flaw is what we're still hoping.
00;23;36;22 - 00;24;14;08
Unknown
You know, that's our first access vector. Like you click a phishing link or you do something wrong. Are you, you know, let someone into a data center that you're not supposed to. Right. It's always humans. Like that's the that's where our biggest that's the weakest, weakest point. So to take that completely out of it, it's like the only thing that the end user will experience is like on their phone having like a top to pay wallet, like a virtual tap to pay or a human like crypto wallet that's secure, that they will have to have some kind of other authentic authentication that they have to do.
00;24;14;08 - 00;24;50;06
Unknown
Right, whether that's there, whether it's a biometric, whether it's something else, but whether they're the only ones that will be able to open that wallet to receive those funds. So that's kind of like how we're looking to build it is is having it so that it's very user friendly. All of the security, all of the infrastructure, all of the wallets, all of that will be completely built like on, on a, on the back end where like that's not visible to the user, but it will still be as like say like say your Department of war, right?
00;24;50;06 - 00;25;22;13
Unknown
And you're running some special forces unit and you're, you know, moving your guys to North Africa or something. And you're like, Ashley, this sounds great. But like for tax purposes, we still have to submit like, what where where all did it. Where did all our money go? You know, we have to still report this to Treasury. So what I would give you is like a report of every single wallet that you guys, that your money touched and where it went, and then, like, all the transactions that you guys spent.
00;25;22;16 - 00;25;53;23
Unknown
And so that could be like a delivered report that, that you guys get, obviously, you know, there's there's lots of things that we're going to figure out as we go through this process and as we work with the customer to build this tool faster and say, tool, it's really like a product. Yeah. But, but we'll we'll figure out there, I'm sure there's going to be pieces that it's going to come to light that I'm like, oh yeah, this, this like doesn't work for them or this does work for them.
00;25;53;25 - 00;26;23;26
Unknown
And so in a situation like this where your client base is, is somewhat clandestine or government and has all these requirements, I mean, obviously you have familiarity with them, but how are you how are you building or is it a partnership? Is it something where you're testing and iterating as you go? So right now we're we are we are moving in the direction of we would like to and we're talking to a few different groups, but we would like to build out a pilot with the customer because we want it.
00;26;23;26 - 00;26;53;06
Unknown
We want to develop alongside the customer because we don't want to be another defense startup that comes along and is like trying to force our vision or our product on them, and it's something that they can't even use in their own space or something that, you know, I, I'm building that because I, I was doing their job and I understand the difficulties and the complications behind it, and also where it felt like we didn't have the backing that we should have.
00;26;53;08 - 00;27;15;28
Unknown
And so like, I'm trying to fill that gap, but I want to do it alongside them. And obviously I was never I was, you know, at CIA, not DFW. And so that's a little different. But that, that, you know, that those groups within the UW, I would love to really build a pilot with, I think that I'll learn a lot from that.
00;27;15;28 - 00;27;39;11
Unknown
And also it's a little bit different how they do it. But I think that the product itself will be better because it will be made like literally with the user and with the user in mind. But I'm also not discounting like this is something that like, even like any commercial company could use to like say that you are building.
00;27;39;14 - 00;27;59;08
Unknown
So you're a private company and you're still kind of, I guess, like in the defense space adjacent, but say like you're sending drones to Ukraine or weapons to Ukraine, but maybe you don't want Russia to know that you're paying to move all these drones, right? Or they don't you don't want them to see kind of like the financials behind this.
00;27;59;08 - 00;28;18;29
Unknown
Like that's where Neumann could come in and help a private company in that way. Or even if you're just like a family office and you don't want people to know what you're doing with your money or just people that want a privacy around their finances. So it's it's not. Yes, I'm building it for defense, but it's got a commercial application.
00;28;18;29 - 00;28;55;13
Unknown
It's got commercial application. Yeah. What I mean, are you able to leverage your network from your prior role or is it, is it was it so clandestine? It's kind of like you're starting over. No, I'm not starting over. I can definitely leverage my network. But it's funny, the the group that I worked with, they probably be, like the last people that would that would, that would, like, come on board and use this and not in a bad way and not in, like, they're just it's it's hard to I think, my old boss broke it down into, like a percentage of, of, like how they can get new technology in the
00;28;55;13 - 00;29;17;16
Unknown
door. But anyway, it's a, it's a problem that's been talked about in our space for a long time is like, how do we actually get these small startups that, that do have good, that do have good tech does have a good product. How do we get it in the door in government? And it's really hard to do. Like there's no one even really can walk you through the process like I've asked people.
00;29;17;16 - 00;29;51;03
Unknown
But there's like it's kind of it's convoluted is the long and short of it is that it's really hard for government to adopt it. So until we figure out that whole like pathway of getting, you know, either a sole source contract or either, you know, there's just there's different avenues or on an idea, but those things are it's like I said, it's it's more about who, you know, and it's and it's kind of convoluted on how the technology can, can be adopted.
00;29;51;05 - 00;30;09;01
Unknown
And that's more of like just a weird game that you have to play and you have to have someone who's like, really good at is knowing what are the requirements for, for someone to to be a design partner with you. Like, what do they have to have? What are they, what are they trying to accomplish beyond just, you know, not wanting or wanting additional security?
00;30;09;01 - 00;30;40;06
Unknown
Yeah. So I mean, I'm going to guess it's going to be more on the distribution side, right? So like the Dawe or whoever's running their financial distribution, that's going to be like our a larger target obviously, because they're moving a lot of money. And we want more volume. Obviously that makes Neumann. It's what's going to make it also be able to work well and be able to help train these agents to work better and more efficiently.
00;30;40;08 - 00;31;18;02
Unknown
And so we're probably going to be aiming for a larger financial distribution kind of places within do away with and agents, any any government agency or treasury to, you know, anyone. That is distributing money or they're handling the cash is really who we're aiming for. Who do you think the using today right now from because the graphic stand I know and I'm, I can't say so, but it's, at least I know for some certain groups, but it's, it's not great.
00;31;18;05 - 00;31;41;11
Unknown
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because I guess what I'm trying to boil down is like, what my understanding of it is like, okay, it's a it's a more secure wallet, but it's also securing the connection between wallets. Yes. So like or and for the onramp and off ramp. So with when you're moving money the two biggest like most visible places is the on ramp and off ramp.
00;31;41;11 - 00;32;07;24
Unknown
So how do you move your cash into crypto. And there's certain, you know, there's certain regulatory limits to that will like flag. So you don't want to like move a ton of money, rate a ton of cash on Unchained all at once. And, off ramping it back into cash or back back off chain. Those are the two most vulnerable pieces.
00;32;07;26 - 00;32;31;24
Unknown
So we're really trying to, break down those two linkages and obviously, like, the in between, like, you don't want to, co spend out of the same wallet rate at the same time of day from the same place. Right? Because that's a lot of these forensics tools are studying the algorithms that they're using is based on like time value based analysis.
00;32;31;24 - 00;32;54;28
Unknown
And also, you know, if you're on the same chain, right, if you're doing like anything that a human does like, or, you know, we're able to see certain nefarious groups of the cartel rate paying people on payroll at the same time every, you know, first and 15. I'm just making this up great. But like that, you see you see those patterns and you see this thing.
00;32;54;28 - 00;33;15;22
Unknown
So what I will be able to do is not behave like a human in that way. Or like the flip side, and this is where like the training and and building this out will be kind of interesting. Or we do want to look like something like a commercial company. Right. But just not a known entity. Right. That is making normal payments.
00;33;15;25 - 00;33;41;06
Unknown
But it's just nobody knows who is on the other end of that, right? Yeah. So because there's too I mean, with everything. Right. It just depends on the operation. But sometimes you wanted to blend in with the noise, right? But sometimes it was such a complex kind of operation that you needed kind of a more specialized thing then, then blending in with the noise.
00;33;41;06 - 00;34;02;28
Unknown
Right. But it just depends, like, it's very like contingent on what the end goal is. Yeah. We just feel like AI gives you optionality today that you wouldn't have. Like, I mean, even if you just think it just basic level SAS products, right? Yeah. It is is, you know, a point solution that it just repeatable, you know, what you're going to get and that's what you're paying for really.
00;34;02;28 - 00;34;24;02
Unknown
Right. Yeah. Repeatability of what the output is. Yeah. Now with AI it's like one even just simple questions won't have repeatable answers at a foundational level. Yeah. So so there there's, there's a work, a unit of work that is to try to get to repeatability. Yeah. There's also a unit of work of saying, okay, when when there are moments from a security standpoint where I don't want repeatability.
00;34;24;02 - 00;34;46;02
Unknown
What does that look like. How do I do this. Yeah. And so it really can be and it also takes off so much manual labor for people that are doing this in the field. So again I can't say how they're doing it. But I'm sure you can imagine, like I just said, all this setup that it takes to be able to run this just to move a small amount of money is a lot of effort from a lot of different people.
00;34;46;02 - 00;35;12;17
Unknown
And I'm not trying to take away people's jobs, but then those people that are doing this today can focus on much harder problems. Or there's an efficiency. It's just an asset. Yeah, yeah. So it's just like huge level of effort that is taken up right now. If people who are trying to make this work and a lot of hands in the pot too, which also is a bigger like, like I said, more mistakes are made when more people are moving it.
00;35;12;17 - 00;35;36;04
Unknown
Right. Like if if I really told you how it worked, like from the very, like starting point of like distributing money, you would be like, no, no, no, no, no. Like it's it's terrible. Yeah. So like so a lot of paperwork, right. That you're just like, this is unnecessary and this is causing more of a trail than it is, like helping.
00;35;36;07 - 00;36;01;00
Unknown
So it's do you see, because I imagine some of that is policy based, right. Yep. Yeah. Do you see policy then needing to adjust, or is it the situations where you were describing, like CIA doesn't have a ton of oversight, so maybe you can get away with it? No. No policy. So it matters like, I mean, it took it took TRW a while to get like cryptocurrency approved for operational use, which it now is.
00;36;01;00 - 00;36;25;13
Unknown
But for CIA, it was more of a we are learning and adopting it kind of along the way like small small groups were. But they they've adopted the use of it. I think it's just more of a kind of be like a mindset thing. Like hopefully this is where it comes in. We're like, is this technology too advanced for the government at this time?
00;36;25;15 - 00;36;46;26
Unknown
And that's like a question mark, I guess that I have. But policy wise, the policies should be fine for you know, for government at this moment. But it's more about like, are they willing to let go of the thing that they've of the way that they've always done it? That's how they, you know, so are they willing to let go of the way that they've always done it?
00;36;46;29 - 00;37;11;24
Unknown
And and that's like a question that I'll just that's I mean, I feel like this is a question for every B2B, AI native company, right now, which is like and I think this happened with blockchain as well, where if, if you have to change the workflow to get improved efficiencies, not only do the improved efficiency have to be like a step function, plus the change in efficiency.
00;37;11;26 - 00;37;37;13
Unknown
But yeah, you just you're fighting against like a very lethargic, very lazy. Yeah. User. Yeah. And I mean, government being, I have to mention one of the, one of the most lethargic. Right. And so I, I, I'm curious how how you're thinking through answering this question, which is like, how do I do it in a way that it almost feels like the same workflow, but it still accomplishes the efficiency gains I want?
00;37;37;15 - 00;38;00;13
Unknown
Yeah. While also adding the additional security. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess that's like one of those things that we're going to find out, like I don't yeah, it's going to be it's going to be interesting I think. Yeah. How do you find out. How do you think how do you think you'll find out. You know, I think the interest that we've gotten is really positive.
00;38;00;13 - 00;38;16;29
Unknown
Like on from all the groups that we've talked to. They are they they want it. Right. But I'm talking to people more on the operator level. So that's great. Right? Because those are the people that are going to be lobbying for this inside that are going to say like to their bosses like, hey, we don't want to do this anymore.
00;38;17;00 - 00;38;42;28
Unknown
Like all this manual labor, like, that's not a job we want. And it's also not secure. Right? So they're going to be the people that are going to be helping push this through. It's now though, just getting to the right decision makers that that hopefully like in the next couple of weeks I'll be meeting and bring to the table that because we'll be done with our demo hopefully by end of May, early June.
00;38;43;00 - 00;39;12;06
Unknown
So that's when we'll be pushing to go talking to the customer and the pilot and then oh, start raising money. Obviously we've had some like friendlies, conversations and just kind of, you know, traveling around to, to to talk about it and also get like feedback too, from, people who may not be in the Nasdaq space because that's also kind of good perspective from just like, crypto background or even from like, cybersecurity background.
00;39;12;06 - 00;39;38;21
Unknown
Right. So yeah, so I guess, like, I don't know if I'm really answering your question, but. Well, I think the question that came to mind with that finish your thought. Yeah. Yeah. No. So I think, you know, I think they're all, all of the signs and kind of like the trajectory of AI and crypto right now. It seems like everything's pointing to go like, I don't know if you've seen but like Mastercard visa.
00;39;38;23 - 00;40;07;14
Unknown
Right. They're they're all trying to make sure that they're incorporating, the protocols that can move money for like retail and things like that that can be accepted in crypto. Now. So they're making huge investments. I mean, Mastercard bought a company for maybe $1 billion recently on, on crypto transaction. So like, you see, there's there's I forget the name of it.
00;40;07;14 - 00;40;30;28
Unknown
Sorry company but but but but like the but there's just big there's big waves happening in this because you can see that like we're going to start we're going to start moving into, I think a space where we're cash is not the only option at a lot of places. Right. And that internationally we can cross borders and pay in crypto.
00;40;31;00 - 00;41;00;05
Unknown
That's like I mean, crypto was built to be, you know, decentralized cross-border payments or it is, is and like whether we know and we can debate this all day long, whether it's Satoshi is one person or a group, or if you built it for good or bad, right? But that's essentially like what made it so interesting, right? And what made it such an interesting concept at the start is the decentralization and the cross-border payments.
00;41;00;08 - 00;41;26;24
Unknown
Yeah. So it's back. Yes. Yes, 1.8 billion. Yeah. March 2026. Yeah. Stablecoin infrastructure. Yeah. So my, my I guess the question that popped in my head as you were talking was it was what, what part of the product feature functionality as you view it or at what in terms of what's built today, do you think gets the eyes light up moment you want in your user, these initial users that you're going to be targeting as design partners?
00;41;26;26 - 00;41;45;27
Unknown
They love the tap to pay on the phone. They love like that. There's on there whatever device they get issued. They love that there's a feature on there that just has instant cash for them to be able to spend. That was like the thing that made them light up that they were like, that's cool. I want that and we need that.
00;41;46;00 - 00;42;06;23
Unknown
So but that is a that's something that exists today or is like, you exist, but I can't use it as a government official because of the, the fact that there's no security around it. Oh no, no, no. It's so that the, the tap to pay under percent will exist like and exist with the demo. It's just like getting it getting them to adopt it.
00;42;06;26 - 00;42;26;08
Unknown
Got it. Yeah. Yeah it's. Yeah. In fact it's just the adoption piece. Yeah. Yeah I'm, I'm probably the worst about it. I remember I was a I'm from Argentina right. So I went to visit family in Argentina on my wall and they're like what. Why do you have a wallet like that's so old school. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And because everything's, everything's tapped and tapped.
00;42;26;13 - 00;42;47;26
Unknown
Yeah. Everything's. You watch with your phone? Yeah, whatever. Yeah. And and it's so funny because I, you know, you grow up, you think, oh, Argentina is kind of this, like, third world country. I mean, one, it's not. It's also been such a good testing ground for a lot of the blockchain crypto companies. Yeah. That, that it's, that I do think there's an adoption there.
00;42;47;26 - 00;43;09;28
Unknown
That's interesting. Yep. But yeah, no, I, I, I agree, I, I guess I just, I think, I think the tap to pay functionality, what you're saying is, is going to be exciting for your user base because while while it exists, it's, it's, the security around it isn't complete is that no security is complete. Yeah. That's what you're bringing to the table is.
00;43;10;05 - 00;43;27;17
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Is the security because it doesn't exist to. Oh, yeah. No, they're just carrying around wads of cash. Right. Yeah. That's right. And trying and trying to go to like right. Like, but you're trying to travel undercover with wads of American cash and going and getting either an exchange you're getting where you fly out with wherever you're going, right?
00;43;27;17 - 00;43;54;08
Unknown
You do some kind of exchange either on this side or that side. Right? But it doesn't matter where you're doing it. It's just a pain. Yeah. Not not only is it probably not the most secure, but it's just a big pain to to do, like, you know, or like, I mean, the efforts that we're going through to, to pay for the money to get flown to places, right, or dropped to places or paid pay assets in the field, pay anybody.
00;43;54;08 - 00;44;29;07
Unknown
It's like it's such a laborers and long thing. Like it's not fast either. So it's like, you know, so knowing what you know why why hasn't why haven't those rails been adopted already? I mean, I think I think that could be said for a lot of different technologies and government. I, I yeah, I think, you know, I joke that like when you walked into, like, the back room of a lot of these, you know, places and you think in your head it's going to look like like the TV show, right?
00;44;29;10 - 00;44;49;00
Unknown
There's no, like, large TV touch screens with, like, the globe popping up, right, that people are like, you know, that's waving their hands. Yes. Yeah. And like pulling it up and saying, you know, like, oh we're going to contact, you know, so and so here it's like doesn't look anything like that. So I think like I was so working I forget which how old these servers were.
00;44;49;00 - 00;45;11;06
Unknown
But anyway like it's not that up to date because they're, they're having a hard time because they're not operating like a startup or a technology company. Right. Like it was a human organization at its core. So it does Humint really well. Right? But now if you think about it, technology has changed the way humans not only behave, but how everything is tracked.
00;45;11;06 - 00;45;53;24
Unknown
Right. So it's really kind of flipping the agency upside down a bit like internally. Right. Because it's like, how do we operate now from this organization that was meant to do this, this function, right, that didn't have all of these other things that we now have to think about? And I think like the adoption is just slow because it's taking it's taking a while for the people at the top to I don't I don't want to say like, this doesn't sound like mean, but we've all like repeated this, but it's like we almost need to like have like a two generation, like cycle, right?
00;45;53;24 - 00;46;17;25
Unknown
Where, like, we're like, those people are out and the, the, the, the like. You need to skip a generation. Skip a generation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that the people at the top that understand why we need it. Right. And and and why we need to, to kind of like be at the forefront and you would think to like, hopefully, hopefully we're seeing now too like China's really pushing hard right.
00;46;17;25 - 00;46;44;00
Unknown
With like the digital one and their, their blockchain networks that they're trying to dominate and get bolster their economy. And they're always looking at the long game. Right. Like they're thinking like way out. Right. And I feel like unfortunately USG or we're not thinking that far out. Right. Like like China wants to. It's almost like we operate in like four year cycle.
00;46;44;01 - 00;47;09;15
Unknown
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. And China is like, no, no, we've been buying like a ton of, you know, crypto services. But we're also buying land all over the place, including in the United States, including Africa, including moving our production elsewhere. We're teaming up with Russia, we're teaming up with Venezuela. We're going to be moving, natural resources.
00;47;09;15 - 00;47;32;17
Unknown
We're going to be think their hands are in all the pots, right? And they're thinking like thinking about everything from like an economic and strategic perspective. Because I think the one thing that they know that they don't have is our military said they're going to be doing everything in their power, right? Whether, you know, financially and otherwise, to make sure that they're doing great.
00;47;32;19 - 00;47;49;28
Unknown
Yeah. But we're we're not thinking the same way. Right? We're just thinking in these like four year cycles in who I think I think goes back to your one of your first points, like, we don't feel like we don't have a mission. Yeah. We don't have something like centralizing that or unifying that says, hey, we need to go do this.
00;47;49;28 - 00;48;30;06
Unknown
Yeah. The boogie man's everywhere. Yeah, yeah. And and unfortunately, as we say, as we've seen with, Iran recently and I don't believe obviously, I'm not inside to confirm this, but there's no way that this, that those operations went off with just them acting alone. So I, I believe like, if our adversaries are really working together, then we should be we should be doubling down on not only working with our allies to, but we should be doubling down on how how can we operate better and use technology to our advantage.
00;48;30;06 - 00;49;00;02
Unknown
Right. Like even how we collect intelligence, we could be so much faster, and more efficient with that as well. Like outside of moving money. But like, there's a lot of different avenues and things that we could be doing and adopting and just be faster in general. But. Right. But it will take, I think, a larger movement of, people that are thinking this in the same way.
00;49;00;02 - 00;49;15;19
Unknown
Yeah. Well, I do believe that, like, I think if you see it, you believe it, you know, like I think, yeah, sitting here in Houston, you do you end up with a lot of really great restaurants because there are a lot of great restaurants. You end up with great oil and gas companies because there are, you know, doctors, so on and so forth.
00;49;15;22 - 00;49;37;17
Unknown
And it's and and now what's been interesting with AI is that people that have been subject matter experts in a space for a long period of time and have always been fearful of, well, how do I build a tool or a product or function for what I know can do? So yeah. And so it's creating, it's lower the bar or at least the barrier of entry to be able to, to start building.
00;49;37;17 - 00;49;53;28
Unknown
Yeah. And people are putting their context and their compounded knowledge about a particular space into it. Yep. And so and so I imagine that's why it's so important for something like image to exist because it's like, okay, now that I understand. Yeah. How much more powerful this could be. Yeah. We should be investing a lot more in this.
00;49;53;28 - 00;50;20;24
Unknown
Yep. It's a it's a trust thing. It's a trust thing. Yeah. Yeah it's 100% trust. And that's why I, I hope it's better that like, it's built by someone who's been inspired. Right. That that's I think a huge advantage that I have as a founders that I came from the space. And so I'm hoping that I can build trust because, you know, I, I had to do it.
00;50;20;24 - 00;50;48;13
Unknown
I had to see it. I had, you know, part of the good, bad and the ugly of it all. So, Yeah. How much has the Silicon Valley thirst for defense tech, impacted you at all? Oh, it's huge right now there. I think I think that I forget what the statistic is, but the growth or the amount of money that they're funding in defense tech, has just exponentially grown over time.
00;50;48;13 - 00;51;08;15
Unknown
And I think it's I think it's at an all time high right now. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like a 7 billion or so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, I think I think that positioning is great. And yeah, we're we'll just be, you know, raising for pre-seed and hopefully in the next six months close that.
00;51;08;15 - 00;51;33;19
Unknown
So. Oh yeah. Yeah. How do you but has it impacted you personally or you just think like the mindset. Oh, you mean, no, I just think the mindset is different. Yeah. Which is useful. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think talking to some VC friendlies, that aren't defense focused is been funny because they're like, why do we need this thing?
00;51;33;19 - 00;51;56;00
Unknown
You know? And then I'm like, how do I explain this? Because it is complicated, right? Like what? What we're building is not a simple thing. So it's like trying to explain, AI in crypto, which is just, like a lot of math, right? Yeah. To, high level, like, pitch and break it down and be like, this is why this is helpful.
00;51;56;02 - 00;52;15;25
Unknown
You know, because I think some, some of them are still thinking like, well, why don't you just use, like, a regular bank or why wouldn't you use just like, legacy, you know, say skip a generation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're you're fighting against pen and paper. Yeah. And physical bags, duffel bags of cash. Yeah. To like, the intersection of AI and blockchain.
00;52;15;25 - 00;52;43;19
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. So it's I've noticed that, kind of have to tailor how I discuss it and how I talk about it, to, you know, different audiences that may or may not understand, like what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Have you gotten to the point where you have a one liner? Working on it? I think the feedback I've gotten from DFW is it's like covered infrastructure or fine covered.
00;52;43;25 - 00;53;07;23
Unknown
Oh, I'm gonna butcher it now. I don't know, I'm not. I'm on the podcast because I've been overthinking it, but, basically, it's a testing ground. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like covered infrastructure for financial operations or something like that. But I don't like that. And we gotta change the word cover because it's like a dirty word with D.O.D., so.
00;53;07;26 - 00;53;31;23
Unknown
Oh, why is that? I think because, it insinuates something different. Where, like agency, there's covert action. There's certain things that define operations. And I guess that is a a word that they don't want associated with, with their operations. For whatever reason, I, I don't actually know the real reason. I just know that it's like I should not use it.
00;53;31;23 - 00;53;58;11
Unknown
Got a bad connotation. No. Yes. Yeah. So I am still working on that now because I had that in my mind as being like the, the thing. But now verbiage is tough. It's. Yeah. Like it matters unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. And you know I will give you like some but some of them are so bad. So it's like I just, you know, give me 500 ways of saying this, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;53;58;12 - 00;54;22;00
Unknown
So I think I just got a message that a little bit more come up with something that's, that's just kind of helping it talk about it in a way where we're, we're building the rails and the secure infrastructure. Right. All the steps that you don't want to have to do when you're setting up your own, you know, wallets and servers and whatever else like that's covered.
00;54;22;00 - 00;54;55;07
Unknown
So some, some, some way to talk about that. We're securing infrastructure like for sensitive financial operations or something like that. But what I find fascinating is that like there are likely other or other startups trying to build something similar for the private space. Yeah, but because the adoption takes so long and it's so different in, in the, you know, in the public space, that you will get the cycles that will, you know, ultimately help you outpace the rest of, you know, the rest of the market trying to do so.
00;54;55;09 - 00;55;19;00
Unknown
Yeah. Because I have to imagine, like, like cybersecurity is just a constant one upping, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just a lot of resources try to figure out, right. What did they do better than us now? And 100%. Yeah. What what I just heard is, is that something you're just ready for mentally? Yeah, I think so.
00;55;19;02 - 00;55;49;26
Unknown
Like, I've. Yeah, I've kind of seen the cycles my whole life, like, go through. Right. Like that. That's been my bread and butter. So. Yeah. I'm mentally expecting pretty much anything or everything. What, what do you think is the next thing that would one up? Neumann. Oh, God. I don't even know. Like some kind of financial transactions in space or something.
00;55;49;26 - 00;56;14;13
Unknown
I have no idea. Like, like, I don't know everyone. You know, you just changing duffel bags? Yeah, in space labs based on everything. Now, you know, and it's like, oh, you get. I think there's a new org now in the government called like. Anyway, everything. You'll get immediate funding if you slap that space warfare or something. You know, the Space Force is that is that is getting.
00;56;14;13 - 00;56;36;21
Unknown
No. There was something to undo anyway. It doesn't matter. But like, yeah, I think space is, the next frontier, right? But I'm like, it's almost like, too far out for me to even think. I mean, like I said, I, I don't even think we've scratched the surface of that yet, so it's kind of like. And we're still thinking of like war, right, with, like, land, air, sea.
00;56;36;24 - 00;57;03;01
Unknown
Because like, we're still we're still doing that. But as you're seeing. Right. Like air's changed a lot now. It's like we have these autonomous weapons, weapons systems and drones and where it doesn't have to be manned by anybody. Right. So like and you're seeing these act alone, just kind of wild also. Yeah. And then, you know, the next I think before space is this electromagnetic warfare, right.
00;57;03;01 - 00;57;24;20
Unknown
Which we've seen over time for a longer period of time, but it's just not talked about it. I mean, it's in a lot of like cybersecurity history books and stuff, like the very big first, I think, cyber attack in Estonia. That happened, right? Like it was a huge DDoS attack, like took down the whole internet, in the country and, you know, no one talks about that.
00;57;24;20 - 00;58;06;24
Unknown
And that happened. And like, I got I'm going to screw up the year. But anyway, like I haven't a while ago, but like, this is still going to be something that we're battling. But AI is not going to be able to help do this so much more efficiently, so much faster, more accuracy. Right. Like, and you see, like we have big threats over here and speaking, I mean, we're on oil and gas like central right here, but think about like, if a cyber attack happened on an oil rig or any of those parts that are probably really old and pieces of infrastructure, right, that, you know, hurt our supply chain.
00;58;06;26 - 00;58;35;00
Unknown
Right? So then then you're looking at, oh, we weren't prepared for this because we never had to think about this before. Right. But I'm telling all of our adversaries are thinking about things like that. Right? Like our our oil and gas, our water treatment plants, our electro, our, electric grid. Right. Like, think about them figuring out a vulnerability that, like, can shut down all of New York City.
00;58;35;00 - 00;59;06;26
Unknown
Right. And you saw hurricane Sandy disaster. Disaster like hospitals, like generators not working like people out of I mean, pure panic, like we have no like, I feel like like I'm a planner and I think about it and like an ops perspective, like if you plan a to like, plan like F, right? Like there's something that it's going to and I feel like we are not prepared for even like like we don't even have like a plan A or B for if this were to occur like a digital attack.
00;59;06;26 - 00;59;31;17
Unknown
Yeah. Like what would we do this while. Yeah, we've had these natural defense, barriers right. With the oceans for so long. Yeah. That now don't matter. No it doesn't it. Yeah. And it's like. And what you're saying is we're not prepared. No, I don't think so. I have not seen this. I mean, I mean, you and saw when Covid happened, I think I was writing, which is kind of creepy.
00;59;31;17 - 00;59;51;17
Unknown
In 2019, I was helping, Homeland Security, and I got some something on my desk that was like preparing for a pandemic or something like that. And I was just like, we're just now thinking about this, or we're just now putting in a plan in place for this, but as you can see, there was no real planning or no real execution.
00;59;51;17 - 01;00;09;27
Unknown
But how do you do that? To your point, there's so many different ways the country can be attacked. I mean, you're focused on financial, but there's we just named, you know, at least ten other ways. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. How do you build a plan for everything? I mean, it's hard because a lot of those organizations. Right.
01;00;09;27 - 01;00;28;23
Unknown
So government. Right. Like, so the oil and gas industry is not, I don't think, and tell me if I'm wrong. I'm not an expert in oil and gas, but it's not regulated by one overseen overseer. Right. It's not like there's or is there an overseer? I have no idea. Yeah. Or is there multiple overseers? There's like multiple.
01;00;28;24 - 01;00;59;16
Unknown
Yeah. So like it's all of this like disjointed. Right. Like there's not one. It's not like by state or by federal that they're saying like all these vulnerabilities must not exist. Right? So there's not a policy or one place that all of this exists under. It's so segmented. So it's really hard to say. We need to all get on the same page about the vulnerabilities that do exist and what could happen.
01;00;59;19 - 01;01;17;14
Unknown
But there is a lot of there's there's companies out there like there's startups, there's these two I gosh, they're really young. I forget the name of the company. They're like 25 years old, which is crazy, but good for them for becoming founders. I was like, you know, still going out to happy hours and not worried. Like, I don't know, kids these days are different and in a good way, right?
01;01;17;14 - 01;01;40;08
Unknown
They're like, focus on health, biohacking and like changing the world. Like, yes, please make it better. But like they're creating things for oil and gas where they're segmenting pieces of the machinery that are, are they're operated by computers and they're encrypting it so that if a hacker did get in, it can't pivot to another part of the system.
01;01;40;08 - 01;02;02;09
Unknown
So it can't take down the entire system. So they might only be able to take that like modular security. Yeah. Just segmentation basically. But like there are companies out there thinking about this. It's just the adoption of like at what level does this get pushed where, you know, yeah, where it's where it's has to be compliant. Right.
01;02;02;16 - 01;02;20;22
Unknown
Like and it's also this is an AI problem as well. Right. Like how are we securing AI? I feel like you've had a few already, so I'm reticent. That's a question. But what's what's your most controversial position right now as you've, as you've been building at the intersection of blockchain and AI? What do you mean by that?
01;02;20;27 - 01;02;38;17
Unknown
Meaning like what? What are you willing to down a hill on? Oh, knowing that the rest of the world is like pushing against it, I don't know if I like I view it that way because like, if I were disruptor, I am a disruptor. But like, if I, if I wasn't. So I feel like being a founder, right?
01;02;38;17 - 01;02;59;15
Unknown
Like if you look at companies that that pivoted right from something that like wasn't a need or a niche or like whatever they went in building thinking that was going to come out. I mean, I think YouTube started right as a dating site. Is that right or something? Some. Anyway, you read about these companies that start and they're turning to something else.
01;02;59;15 - 01;03;19;07
Unknown
So I don't want to be a founder that of stuck in like a this is the thing. I mean I think this is a need, right? And it is a niche. But if I also want the company to succeed. So if there's something that else that like, say we are building this and then we figure out it solves a different problem for a much larger market.
01;03;19;07 - 01;03;45;28
Unknown
Like I would absolutely pivot, but I'm not saying that I would do that easily or that it would be like, I do think this is something that is 100% needed for, for not only for just national defense purposes. I mean, that is the biggest purpose and we do need to defend that. But also just like commercially, like a lot of our money now is not as private as we all think it is.
01;03;45;28 - 01;04;09;11
Unknown
Like there's so many open source, like intelligence tools now that exist that can also like pull back, like if you have your own little LLC or something and you set it up somewhere like there's paper out there, right? There's companies that publish these, these documents. Right. And so not only can they see that, but now, you know, banks are extremely vulnerable to.
01;04;09;14 - 01;04;32;17
Unknown
So it's like I do think this is an important mission, but I also want to be a little bit, in my mind, flexible as well. That I don't know what what's going to happen. Yeah. As we're building this so I know that's I know probably like, oh yeah, it's exciting. Yeah. It's it's exciting. It's definitely like terrifying and terrifying.
01;04;32;17 - 01;04;55;17
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah yeah. Was like it's terrifying and exciting because you never, you know, you just never know I feel like I mean, what's the percentage of like 1% of startups succeed or something? Yeah. All right, I guess to find something but really small something very, very small. So. Yeah. But if something's, I mean, just doing it based on a percentage of success is not fun.
01;04;55;19 - 01;05;18;06
Unknown
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But I think in numbers. So I always like about I'm like woo like this will be fun. So this is, this is, this is awesome actually. Yeah. This is great. How can I be helpful? I think just, you know, you and your network and just, you know, I mean, I, I guess being new to Houston to.
01;05;18;10 - 01;05;28;09
Unknown
Yeah. So. Yeah, like, really just tapping in. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, I'm excited to hear more progress. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you.