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Join Dr. Kim Kutsch, the brilliant mind behind CariFree, as he explores the extraordinary lives of thought leaders in the dental industry, and beyond. Contrary to Ordinary explores further than dentistry - here we unravel the minds of change-makers, paradigm shifters, and world shakers.
Every two weeks, we dive into the stories of our remarkable guests—ordinary people who continually defy limits. Discover their tales of success, resilience, and self-awareness, and explore how they leverage these experiences not only to elevate dental practice and patient care but also to champion personal growth and entrepreneurship. Listen for captivating conversations with innovators who seamlessly blend art and technology, pursue curiosity, and create the truly extraordinary.
Contrary to Ordinary isn't your typical dentistry podcast—it's a vibrant community that's hit #1 in ‘Entrepreneurship,’ #3 in ‘Business,’ and #21 in ‘All Podcasts’ for a reason. We've had the pleasure of hosting inspiring guests like innovators, dental leaders, pioneering inventors, and artists, including Angus Walls, Machell Hudson, Dr. Simon McDonald, Dr. Bobby Birdi, Rella Christensen, Professor Phillip D. Marsh, Carmen Ohling, John Kois, Dr. Susan Maples, Doug Young, Colt Idol, Stephanie Staples, and many more who've graced our mic.
Each episode isn't just a listen; it's a lesson in living an extraordinary life authentically, embracing rebellion, and nurturing leadership. We dive into diverse topics, from mentoring, coaching, personal development, and work-life balance to self-awareness, emotional intelligence, leadership, storytelling, altruism, and motivation. And yes, we also cover dentistry—exploring natural dentists, dental health, dental laboratories, oral care, oral surgery, dental hygiene, caries disease, brushing teeth, and overall tooth care.
Tune in to Contrary to Ordinary for a unique blend of wisdom that goes beyond the ordinary and resonates with all aspects of life! This podcast aims to empower you to be extraordinary in your dental practice and improve not just your dental care but your overall life!
Do you have an extraordinary story you’d like to share with us? Or perhaps a question for Dr. Kutsch. Contact us on our Instagram, Facebook or Twitter today.
About Our Host:
Meet Dr. Kim Kutsch: a retired dentist with 40 years of experience, prolific writer, thought leader, inventor, and researcher in dental caries and minimally invasive dentistry, brings his insatiable curiosity to the forefront. Eager to learn from those breaking boundaries in dentistry, particularly in preventative and non-invasive dentistry approaches, Dr. Kutsch launched the Contrary to Ordinary podcast. As a keen creative and curious mind, Dr. Kutsch extends his podcast guest list to artists, entrepreneurs, and fascinating minds who have piqued his interest. He wants to learn from them and see how he can be inspired by their extraordinary ways of living and adapt his learnings into his own life and his business, CariFree.
About CariFree:
CariFree is the new model for oral health and cavity prevention. Dr. Kutsch is the CEO and founder of this business. They create cutting-edge technology and science-based solutions to common dental health concerns for the whole family, making it easy to banish cavities for good with preventive strategies over restorative procedures. Find out how dentists are using CariFree products to revolutionize their dental practices here: https://carifree.com/success-stories/.
Recording:
Extraordinary.
Leader.
Innovative.
Integrity.
Honest.
Courageous.
Curious.
Thoughtful.
Brave.
Unafraid.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
There is a place where technology and art meet, where work and play are one and the same. When the threads of curiosity are pulled in this place, the spark of innovation ripples across industries. Those who make this place their home are giants. Titans, who pursue creative passion while leaving their mark.
Recording:
Creative.
Flexible.
Brilliant.
Clever.
Confident.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
They are courageous thought leaders set on changing the practice of dentistry and their corner of the world. More than the sum of their parts, we deconstruct the traits that bind these uncommon innovators.
Recording:
Humble.
Daring.
Disciplined.
Playful.
Principled.
Spontaneous.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
To discover what makes them contrary to ordinary, where we explore the extraordinary.
Hi there. I'm Dr. Kim Kutsch, host and founder at Cari Free. I'm fascinated by what makes the paradigm shifters, world shakers and art makers tick. Let's embark on a journey. Extraordinary is a place where ordinary people choose to exist. Together we will trek the peaks of possibility, illuminate the depths of resilience, and navigate the boundless landscape of innovation to discover how some of the most innovative dentists and thought leaders unlock their potential and became extraordinary.
Welcome to Contrary to Ordinary, the show where we explore the motivation, lives, and character of the innovators who see limitless potential around them, the people behind some of the largest paradigm shifts in the practice of dentistry and beyond. This is part two of my interview with pastor and author, Laura O'Brien. In part one, Laura recounted some of the stories featured in her upcoming book, Hell On Wheels. We also explored Laura's unconventional path to faith. Today we're going to talk a little bit about Laura's life now and how many of the lessons she's learned in her journey as a pastor can be applied to all leaders in their own niches. Laura is a mentor to many, but who has guided her along the way?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Corby Ward, who was a theater teacher in high school.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Okay.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Who just let me be.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Who didn't judge you, didn't-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Never did a production. I just took his classes because it was the place I felt safest. And he actually, in the end, he helped me the most as a pastor and a preacher. And then definitely Ron. He changed my life, literally.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
What kind of traits would you, a couple of main traits in those people?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I would say they're authentic. There's not two sides to them.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. What you see is what you get.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
What you see is what you get, and I love that. And that, for me as a pastor, at every interview I've ever done, who you see is what you get. I'm not going to be somebody else. I'm not going to interview one way and turn around and be something else.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's not in your DNA.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
It isn't. It's like right out there. You make a mistake, you own a mistake, you move on. And I would say, at the end of the day, the best people is just the most authentic. And I have this much tolerance for people who play you. I have none. And that's probably my biggest fault is because I can accept you that you might be that way, but once it crosses a line, we done. And that's a hard one, I think, because when you're a pastor, you're supposed to turn the other cheek, you're supposed to do this, and I'm like, this is me turning the other cheek.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Because otherwise I'd kill you.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
So yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I just have to walk away before I kill you.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Kill you. That's me showing you grace. Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So what would you consider your greatest success in life?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
My marriage. I do. We've known each other since 1994, almost 30 years, and we've gone through a lot. It's not easy being a pastor, I call him the pastor's wife. It's not. We've grown together, we've changed together, we've raised a child together. I would say, yeah, that is, and being a mom.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. What would you consider your greatest challenge then?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Being a wife and being a mom.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Being a wife and being a mom. Okay. Fair enough.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No, I'd say the greatest challenge is just accepting life on life's terms, and accepting other people on the terms that they are. I drove down to San Luis Obispo with my daughter and my niece, and when you're 20, everything's drama. She was having problems with somebody and I said, "Well, what are you going to do when, after you go and talk to them, nothing changes? You're going to have to make a choice whether you want that person in your life or not. Can you accept them for who they are and let go of the expectation of who you want them to be?" That's the biggest challenge I think, in everybody's life.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And particularly, I think at age 20.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Because you know everything.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You know everything at 20.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And I think it's interesting, as we get older, right?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
If I knew of what I didn't know.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I just find, in my own life experience, I just find that I know less and I'm more comfortable with ambiguity. My boundaries, however, have become more fixed. For me that-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
But do you find your boundaries a little wider out?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, they're wider, and I'm more tolerant and more accepting.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
But at the same point in time, for me, the biggest piece is integrity. Right?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Honesty and integrity. And that's the most important piece. And if I have somebody in my life that isn't honest or ... they're not in my life anymore, right? I mean, I can love you, but you know what-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I'm not doing this.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
But yeah, exactly.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. Just get rid of your expectations of people. Set them for yourself, but don't set them for others.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Otherwise, you're going to continually-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Continually be ticked off.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Be disappointed.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
With what somebody else did, that you have absolutely no control over. In ministry, when you first come out of seminary, you do know everything. You've just been crammed full of information, and you're not very considerate of the fact that you're going into a place that might've been there for a hundred years and they know a lot more than you do. And that's a humble pill that every first call pastor has to swallow. We do it. And I know that our church is going to be looking at pastors is stay away from a first call or be prepared for it. My way of looking at things now is, let me just sit back and see what you guys do for about a year.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Let me understand you.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
You. So the first thing I'll do down there is I'll take the different committee leaders to coffee. Tell me what you are doing. What's working? What do you want to make work better? How can I assist you in that? Don't let me tell you how to do it because I don't even know how to do it. I know how to do it at Good Shepherd, don't know how to do it down there.
So that's a big thing that comes with just maturity, that there's a lot more you don't know than you do know. And your experience will be an asset, but it doesn't have to define everything. And so what I think should happen, that's one of the things they ask, what would you do different? I said, "Right away, nothing. You guys are doing fine. Why would I come in and tell you you're doing it all wrong. That's stupid."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. And then what I also learned is people want to be heard. Let them tell you. Listen to it, even regurgitate it back so that they know that they've been heard. And then even if you want to change everything, you tell them it, and then they tell you they have a really great idea and you say, "Great. That's a great idea."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Being brought in as a leader who is seen as a change-maker is an honor. However, as Laura says here, you need time to soak in what business as usual looks like before you make any radical decisions. When Alan Mulally joined the Ford Motor Company as CEO in 2006, the organization was in really bad shape. By the end of his tenure in 2014, Ford had completely turned around and had weathered the financial crash of 2008 without having to access a government bailout. How did Mulally do all of this? Well, he never resorted to hasty decisions that could have had detrimental long-term effects. He had a long-term vision, and that started with an honest assessment of how things were. Context is always key.
Laura has a responsibility to provide context for what she's preaching and teaching. Scripture is easily broken up into chunks that can be attached to any agenda. So Laura takes the contextual education aspect of her work very seriously.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I try to teach it in a sermon because it needs to be contextualized because otherwise, it's like an equation, if you're starting at the wrong place, you're not going to get the right answer. But one of the things I've always done with the sermon is I like having a lectionary because it keeps you honest, I can't just go be biased on my little topic. But sometimes they'll cut it up to make it say a thing that it doesn't say. I know you've probably been there and I say, "Open up your Bible. Let's read what they cut out. Let's go back a few verses here and make this contextual and then let's talk about it." Because the lectionary, it has its own agenda too, because somebody made it. But if you don't know your Bible, and you don't know your history. And think about our culture today, they don't know their history.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So I think one of the things that I appreciate is having that historical context when you look at the Bible. And then also, well then bringing it to today.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right? So-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
So what does this mean?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
What does this mean? And what does it mean for us here and now? Because that's the value of the Bible, and the purpose of that is for here and now.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. It's kind of two parts. You have to remember the Bible wasn't written for us and that, for Dick running that, oh, he really struggled when I said that once. You have to realize it was not written for us. We use it and it's for us, but those letters were not intended for us.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
They weren't. So you have to understand who they were written for, why they were written, what they were discussing, and then apply it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
But don't apply it without taking that into consideration. And you do need to know your history to do that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I mean, all of Paul's letters were written-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
To congregations.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
To people.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
At the time.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
For a problem.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
For a problem, right?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Only one letter isn't about a congregation in turmoil, and that's to the Philippians. The rest of them, I mean, he says some pretty nasty things to him.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. And you're like, "Wow, I wish I could do that sometimes." But it does help to know that most of the congregations he's writing to are in conflict. So when you're in a congregation and there's conflict, that's normal. Everybody wants it to be a kumbaya moment in a church. But he's constantly saying, he's constantly trying to get them to re-center themselves. You quit fighting with each other, quit caring about this, that, and the other, do what you're supposed to be doing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Well, a congregation is a community of people, and within any community ever, there's always going to be conflict.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And I think the one other thing that I think that I appreciate about that as well, there's when you contextualize it and then bring it forward, is that you realize in 2,000 years, people-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
We haven't changed all that much.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Haven't changed at all, Laura. Then I start to think some of this is baked in our DNA.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
It is.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right? It's created in our DNA because I look at this stuff and I think, "What, really?" And then it's like, "Well, that's still happening today." I mean, in 2,000 years we haven't learned anything?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Learned a damn thing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
We have this saying in the dental profession, circle the wagons and make sure all the guns are pointing out, because we have a tendency to shoot each other.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Each other.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And so it's like, be focused out, not in. Circle the wagon. We have this hardship or whatever is going on, there's challenge. Okay, let's circle the wagons, but let's make sure that we got each other's back.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
You're not the Donner party.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Don't cannibalize yourselves.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
The dental profession is tough, and many find the physical and mental toll of the work that we do grueling. It makes sense that we band together and have each other's backs, circling the wagons to protect our own when the conditions are as harsh as they are.
Indeed, we might be right in thinking that our human nature doesn't change that much. Historian and author, Arnold, J. Toynbee thought so. In his monumental work, A Study of History published between 1934 and 1961, Toynbee examined the rise and fall of civilizations throughout history. He proposed that civilizations experience recurring patterns of challenge and response, and he identified certain constants in human behavior in relation to this. This cycle of history might tell us something about why we're always pointing our guns outward, but we have to remember that human nature isn't just about these two constants of challenge and response. There are some people, like Laura, who are trying to leave the world better than when she found it.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Whether it's a congregation or a community, or anywhere, I just want to leave it better than where I found it. I don't care if I'm remembered or whatever. That's irrelevant. That's it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
To make a difference.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
To make a difference, but to make a difference in a way that they don't even know you made a difference. I love those type of people that were just quiet leaders, and I always want people to feel better about me being there. I don't know. I hope that these last 13 years was a lot of fun for people, with some hard things in the middle of it, but could laugh and say, "That was really good, that was a time." And that's what I mean by better.
So that's pretty much what drives me. I also know that I really do believe in the kingdom of God. I really do. And I don't know what it will look like, I don't have an idea, but I want to work towards it. And to me, that's always justice and mercy, and those things that aren't just faith. That's really what motivates me. Just there is something bigger than you and me and just to be a part of that mission is pretty cool.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
What's your favorite thing about being a pastor? Of all the duties-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
This.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
This?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. Just talking to people. I like preaching. Preaching though has never been that hard. It's kind of like, probably for you, to drill a tooth. It is what I do. And I enjoy it. I enjoy the process and whatever. I hate pastoral visits that are formal. But just sitting down, going and have a cup of coffee with somebody and chatting, and finding out about them, and sharing back and forth and having a laugh, that's what I like. I hate administrative work. I hate all that.
The other thing I really love is for people to figure out what they're really good at and let them fly with that. That's cool. To see somebody who didn't think they could do something, do it, and feel empowered by it. That is a really good feeling. And all you have to do is go, "Go. That's a good idea. Go with it."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Hi, Contrary to Ordinary listeners, we're going to take a short break from this conversation for our segment Questions with Dr. Kim. Don't go anywhere.
In this segment, I'll answer a listener's question about their dental health. If you have a dental question that you want answered, then send it to Podcast@carifree.com. That's C-A-R-I-F-R-E-E dot-com, and add Questions with Dr. Kim in the subject line. If your question gets read out on the show, then we'll send you a small gift to say, thanks for checking in.
This week's question reads, "Dear Dr. Kutsch, Happy New Year. I was wondering what you think of dental probiotics like Streptococcus salivarius BLIS K12. I keep seeing health journal articles coming out on things like this, helping with the dental microbiome as well as immune system improvement. I'm curious, but don't want to mess up anything in my mouth. Thanks. I loved your book."
Thanks so much for the question. We know that probiotics work extremely well in the gut. In the mouth, there have been many attempts over the years to find a probiotic that would help reduce a person's risk for cavities. Unfortunately, none of them have reported a very positive result, with one exception. Probiotic milk drank frequently will help reduce the risk for cavities in children. Beyond that, nothing to report about probiotic effects against tooth decay, but if you want to take a probiotic, I don't think there is any downside. The study about cross-reacting with the COVID spiked protein was interesting. Personally, I take a probiotic every day for gut health. I hope this helps.
And if you, dear listener, would like more information on all things dental than head to carifree.com, C-A-R-I-F-R-E-E.com, where we've got more resources on dental health and our line of Cari Free products that can help you keep a healthy smile. Let's get back to the conversation.
Yeah. What goals do you have for the rest of your life at this point?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
At this point, my biggest goal is to get this book published.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Okay.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I mean, I will say that I really feel good about it. I feel like it's a great story, and I don't care if it's even about ... it is mine, but it really is kind of a fun, crazy, out of this world thing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
But a story of discovery and survival-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Survival and everything. Aside from that, I want to help the next church. I do. I want to see what we can do together down there. And yeah. I do. And I want to get Katie through high school and those things-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
She doesn't have the plan that you had to ... the 1.9, four Fs?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No. She always tells me that, "Mom, just to succeed you in high school is so minimal."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You set the bar pretty low.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah, that's basically what she was telling me. She goes, "All I have to do is go to school and I'll be above you." And I'm like, "Oh, just shut up." So yeah. And I want my husband to be happy. Those things. For myself, you kind of learn to go through life and just adapt and be, I really feel like you should be where you're planted and find peace where you're planted. So I don't really, that, trying to figure out what the Trader Joe's is that's going to be the hardest thing maybe.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Finding peace where you're planted is a noble goal. I think it's something that could help a lot of people who feel dissatisfied with their lives or having a change forced upon them. Stoic philosophy is increasingly popular these days. This might be because it offers a path toward feeling in control of your life, despite the circumstances and reality of it.
Epictetus, a Stoic philosopher who lived in Ancient Greece during the first and second centuries AD, coined the term dichotomy of control. He said that our lives are divided into two aspects, what we can control and what we can't. Ultimately, we need to let go of what we can't control and work on the things that we can. We need to find peace with our personal circumstances. Laura spends a lot of time working hard, but I wonder what does she do for fun?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I write. I do enjoy it. And getting to meet different people, especially in the writing world, I really enjoy that. Otherwise, working with older people, they've taught me a lot of what not to do, and I don't want to ever just sit because that's the biggest killer.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's the killer.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
It's not anything else. It's sitting and not moving. So I work out, I run, I bike, I do whatever I can, and I pray to God that I'm always able to do that because that's what keeps you going.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Just keep moving. I remember my grandfather, he worked really hard, farmed with my dad, and worked really hard. And when he retired, he would've been 74-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Which is young.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And you would've guessed that he was 50. He was so physically fit. And he made the decision that, "I've worked hard all my entire life, and now I get to sit and enjoy and I'm going to sit in my rocker and enjoy my ...
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Retirement.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
"My retirement." And within two years, he couldn't get up out of the rocker-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
That's crazy.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
On his own power. And it's just like, I remember watching that and going-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Don't do that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I'm not going to do that.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. See, my grandma was 92 when she passed away, and we have a picture of her at 88 at the Great Wall of China. And she would travel all over the place, and we called her Flossy, and she was about four foot 10. She was a go getter, and she was a good role model. She's gone now, and she'd probably spin in her grave if she heard me say that because she drove me nuts, but she was a role model in that way.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
What's one thing about you that people probably don't know?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Well, they know pretty much everything because, man, you're just out there for everybody. Actually, I'm more of an introvert than most people know.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Really?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I'm more than happy on my own. And I need that to kind of just decompress. After a worship service, I have to go home and take a nap for about an hour. Every Sunday. Because you're on.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, you are on. Were you ever nervous in terms of public speaking? Does that-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You don't get anxious from that?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No. That's a gift. That's a gift from God. I really believe that. And it sounds arrogant. Whenever I interview, I say, "I have a gift first preaching," and then they go, "Oh, you do." I go, "Yeah, it's okay. We're all good." It's like Bono saying, "I have a gift for writing songs." Yeah, you do. Okay. It's okay. We'll let you live with that. So no, not really.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Okay.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. I don't get those butterflies,
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
But you're just more of an introvert than an extrovert.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah, I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert. And that probably surprises people. They probably think You just want to go, go, go.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And I don't, don't, don't.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's interesting. One of the people that I've interviewed, one of my mentors, in the process, she's one of the most gifted speakers I've seen. She's so comfortable in front of an audience. And as I'm interviewing her, I'm asking these kind of questions, she says, "I'm terrified of public speaking. I'm terrified." And I'm like, I was stunned.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Really?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Because I'm just, nobody has ever noticed that. Right? Because you are good at hiding that because you seem so comfortable in front of an audience that it's like-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Do you know what helps, Kim, is that you know your material.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Oh, and she knows it.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
If you know your material-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I mean, literally-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Then you're good. Yeah, you get butterflies. I know that that second reading's almost over and I got to stand up and do it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Yeah, it's coming.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Do I have everything in order? I don't preach from a text, so I have to go through my head.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You don't have a written-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You never have a written sermon?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I do. It's at home with some notes, and then I go to bed. But it does take a lot. You do have to be on.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Oh, absolutely.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And I hate to say it, but it is a performance.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. No, it is.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And you have to be available to everybody, and you can't have a bad day on Sunday.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
There are many professions where having a bad day can really cause some damage. It seems pretty obvious that dentistry is one of them, but you might not think about how much spiritual damage one could do in a pastor's position if they're having an off day. Faith is complex by nature and is shaped strongly by leaders of any given community. Faith is also a place where people go to find relief and solace. It's the responsibility of pastors and other leaders to nurture that trust, which is why bad days can be disastrous. Likewise, faith leaders need to be able to adapt and think about the future. I think a lot about the impact of AI in my field, but I wonder what Laura thinks about it.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I do believe that God knew all about AI way before anybody discovered it or created it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you go all the way back to the garden.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right? I mean-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
It's a temptation.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So it hasn't changed-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
What's the tempt-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Human behavior hasn't changed.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
What's the temptation in the garden?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
It's the desire to be-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
To be like God.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Like God.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
To know what God wants.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
God wants. And then we want to not only be like God, we want to be God.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Be God. Yeah, yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
That's what it's all about. And somebody will say, "I don't want to be God." I say, "Yeah, you do. You want to tell that person who they can love and who they can't love. You want to tell that person what they can do and what they can't do. You want to tell ... but have you ever turned that little mirror around and looked at yourself?"
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
No.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. So that's, it cycles and cycles and cycles. AI is being God. It's just another way we want to be God. And what happens if it crashes?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I don't know. And I'm sure that, and I look at all the potential really good things that come out of it, but then somebody will use it for evil.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
It will be a weapon.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It will be a weapon. Oh, yeah. It'll be weaponized.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I mean, Oppenheimer never had a desire to make a weapon. He just wanted to figure out about atoms and what they do and what powers in them and-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
How they work.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And how they worked.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Interacted.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And they're always a weapon. Sticks and stones become weapons.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Exactly. Even the sticks and rocks become weapons, right?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Weapons. Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Anything else you want to add today here?
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No, just, Kim, I do want to say that it's been a pleasure being your pastor. It really has. And I've told people, if people don't know who you are, I always say, "I hope I have a hundred Kim and Dana's because, first of all, Good Shepherd wouldn't float real well without you guys, but you've never been demanding, you've never pushed an agenda or said, "I want it my way." You've just been a great parishioner and hopefully a friend over time.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, absolutely.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And it's never been anything but an honor, really, to find out that really good, good people are out there, and you and Dana are.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, thank you.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah it's been an honor. And you guys taught me a lot too. I always go, "Oh, what's the agenda?" And you don't have one. It's awesome.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's my house of worship. It's where I go to feed my soul once a week, when I'm in town.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
When you're in town. We went through stuff together and we went through some dark stuff.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Really hard time.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah, and I've just been, you asked, that's what I like.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Oh, I appreciate you having been there.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. So it meant the world-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
With us at that time.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. And it wasn't the easy, with Bob, that was hard.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That was hard. That's the hardest thing I've been through.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. And it was hard. And it was hard, but the nice thing is I knew exactly what you were going through.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, absolutely. Right.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. And one of the blessings I have from what I went through with my dad is I know what you guys are experiencing, I know what you don't have to do. You don't need to plan a service. You don't need to worry about music. If I can take that whole section away from people's lives and make your life easier during, what, two weeks time, what a blessing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
I mean, it's a gift to be able to give it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And it does make people's lives easier. I've had them come to me and say, "We didn't have to do anything."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Right.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And we couldn't have.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No. You're not in a space to do it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
And I know that. And we all know that. And it's been funny to watch in the church because everybody who's ever gone through it and received that, it's a gift.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's a gift, yeah.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
They want to contribute to the next person who needs that gift.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
So I kind of call it awful grace because it's an awful experience to go through, but what a blessing to be able to give it now to the next person, because nobody gets out of here alive.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
No. And nobody in life doesn't have struggles and challenges.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Right.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You don't get out of here without some scars.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
No, you don't.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Nobody does.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Nobody does.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And so I think being kind and understanding because of your own scars to people that are going through that-
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Makes you a better person.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah. So yeah, that's all I wanted to say.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, well thank you.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Thank you so much, Laura.
Pastor Laura O'Brien:
Yeah, you're welcome.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Laura's road has been long and winding. I think her willingness to not just accept faith as it was originally presented to her makes her an excellent leader in our community. She's open and I feel breeze life into the scripture.
Thank you so much, Pastor Laura O'Brien for speaking with me today. Laura has been at the Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Albany, Oregon for 13 years, but is soon moving on to another congregation. I'll miss hearing Laura speak, but I'm also excited that other people will get the opportunity to hear her teaching and experience her warmth.
And thank you for coming on this journey with me today. Around here, we aim to inspire and create connections. We can't do it without you. If this conversation moved you, made you smile, or scratched that little itch of curiosity today, please share it with the extraordinary people in your life. And if you do one thing today, let it be extraordinary.