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Interviews with amazing people making things happen across the world of digital media.
New episodes every Thursday.
Mike (00:01.462)
All right, our guest this week has played pivotal roles developing three of the most important digital media companies in the sports world. He helped build Barstool Bleacher Report and now sits as the chief content officer at Overtime. At Overtime, he has created tons of hugely successful shows, helped define what it means to talk about high school sports, and most recently has created sports leagues like Overtime Elite and OT7. Yeah, that's right. It's Mark Cohn.
Mark, how's it going, man?
Marc Kohn (00:32.078)
Good Stric, what's going on? How are you?
Mike (00:35.542)
I'm doing great man. It is super awesome to have you on. I'm there's just like so much that we can talk about
Marc Kohn (00:42.126)
We'll avoid the Yankees for a little bit here so that everybody isn't bored.
Mike (00:48.694)
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say that the audience for this is like not John Boy's audience, you know? It is slightly different. But look, if the Yankees come up, I think we can mention it. Like we can mention how hot Aaron Judge is. Like I don't know if that's gonna be like the focal point though of the conversation, to be fair.
Marc Kohn (00:57.038)
Yeah.
Marc Kohn (01:09.578)
I would think it would not.
Mike (01:12.63)
Okay, so I mentioned.
Marc Kohn (01:14.166)
We'll talk about when the Yankees will collapse sometime in August.
Mike (01:20.854)
Yeah, I know. So moving on to a happier conversation. So I mentioned at the top, you went to overtime and overtime as a company has sort of helped define what high school sports content means in the digital age. You know, for those of you out there thinking that, high school sports, that's cool. I remember it in my newspaper when it was like.
Marc Kohn (01:27.726)
Yes.
Mike (01:47.734)
you know, Massac High School, which is where I went in Connecticut, and like their football game on Friday night or whatever. Like that is not what overtime does. So for anybody who has been living under a rock and isn't familiar with what overtime is doing, Mark, do you mind just like filling people in? Like what is overtime doing and like how do you define like covering high school sports?
Marc Kohn (02:12.11)
So first, Overtime is a sports brand for the next generation of sports fans. And so I think, Strik, we were both kind of old, we're kind of past the demo that we're serving content to. But when you and I were both young, there was no Instagram, there was no TikTok, there was no YouTube. I mean, there was a Zach Morris phone that like,
somebody's parent who was a doctor had, and that was about it. That's not how young sports weren't consumed. I remember, you know, I would go to Barnes and Noble to be able to read about, you know, the top high school quarterback in Texas and think like I was going to know who the next great quarterback or great star baseball player was going to be. But you had to do a lot of work. And so growing up, like,
I watched the Yankees, I'm a huge Miami Dolphin fan. You watch college and pro sports. And because that was really your only option. But as kind of social media evolved, what we found out was that young people like to watch other young people. And that's not a shock, right? Like YouTube and Snapchat have, you know, tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people, young people watching other young people, you know.
talk about, you know, pop culture, they do vlogs and people just watch them just go kind of do a day in a life. But it was quickly, we quickly saw that there were high school basketball players who had similar followings to Aaron Rodgers, who was, you know, at the time, the best quarterback in the world and one of probably the five best quarterbacks to ever play the sport. And there are high school basketball players with.
you know, getting as many views on a post as Aaron Rodgers was getting. Or I used to, the other example that I used to like was, you know, Didier Gorgorius was actually pretty good at social and he had less followers than multiple, and he played shortstop for the Yankees and he had less followers than high school basketball players. And so we quickly were able to see that the next generation of sports fans and just like,
Marc Kohn (04:36.302)
content consumers were interested in people their own age. And as we kind of figured out that as we figured out that there was this huge interest in watching these players play football and basketball especially, it was like, okay, what is the biggest thing that we can kind of build on top of?
the social distribution channels that we know that we have young people who like to watch high school football and high school basketball, what could we do? And so we decided to kind of build sports leagues on top of all of these social distribution channels so that we could kind of have probably the best outcome possible. Like the digital media world is a really hard world. As you know.
as you know, and getting stuck in that cycle of just like ad deal after ad deal after ad deal. Now we love our, everybody loves their sponsors, but to like not be able to kind of build underlining IP compared to just doing, you know, 300 one -off deals every single year and trying to renew that and trying to renew those partnerships is not as exciting of a business as kind of building IP.
has underlying value.
Mike (06:06.134)
Yeah, that's so interesting. We, a few episodes back I had someone on and we were talking about like memes versus like quote unquote premium content. Right. And in many respects, a lot of people get into this and they get really good at like curating memes. And then they hit a point where they're like, wait a minute, I need like a moat here. You know, I need like some stuff that is like mine in a way that like a meme can't be. so.
Are you saying that the leagues is sort of the next phase of that idea, where it's like, we have all this great organic and UGC and other really community -based content, but layered on top of original programming, layered on top of actual leagues built around this. Is that a fair thing to say?
Marc Kohn (06:55.478)
Yes. Yeah. So we have OTE, which is our our our basketball league. And I don't generally like to call it high school because if you watch it and you look at it in OTE arena, it looks nothing like like you said, your high school basketball league. Like it looks nothing. It looks nothing like it. It looks like professional basketball. It's really high end basketball played in a gorgeous arena. It's incredibly premium. We do all of the live broadcasts ourselves. We have
deal with Amazon Prime, distribute some games there. We also distribute games across all of our social channels and that way we can kind of build the community around OTE and build that brand to be really strong. And so it's really the next generation sports leagues is more like how I like to frame it.
because it doesn't look like high school basketball or high school football.
Mike (07:58.358)
No, definitely not. Like back in the day, if you were watching like a high school highlight on Sports Center or something, it was usually like one camera, like camera one essentially, what is like the game angle for people listening. And that was it. It was like, that was all you got. If you watch an overtime elite broadcast, there's replays, there's a booth, there's pre -game, halftime, post -game. Like you guys have definitely like created.
Marc Kohn (08:09.422)
Yeah.
Marc Kohn (08:24.558)
We even have an indoor drone.
Mike (08:26.998)
You do?
Marc Kohn (08:28.462)
Yeah, we use an indoor drone in our games.
Mike (08:30.774)
That, okay, that's like a whole nother thing.
Marc Kohn (08:32.43)
We have a wire cam and an indoor drone.
Mike (08:35.638)
That is amazing. The drone footage that's coming out of sports right now is amazing. Like the Yankees, there was just one at the Yankee game the other night. They were zipping around the stadium. So, okay, so based, so the drone footage and like these new kind of innovative camera angles is a good segue to get to this question I wanted to ask you. So you guys had this unique experience of creating a league from scratch, right? Like no previous...
Marc Kohn (08:41.646)
It's fun.
Mike (09:04.086)
like traditions or legacy to worry about, right? Like you guys were able to sort of sit there and be like, what should this look like without any like past things to worry about or to like pay homage to or any of that, or at least that's how I see it. So maybe it's new camera angles, like a drone, like that's super cool. But how else, you know, did, you know, what, like how, how did you guys approach that? Like creating a brand new league?
from scratch and now this league is in its third league and has produced NBA talent. So, you know, like for anyone listening, this is like a super legitimate league. So how did you guys create that from scratch? Like, how did you approach that without being bound to sort of what we all already think about when it comes to like broadcasting or creating a league?
Marc Kohn (09:53.358)
Yeah, so fan first, that's the first thing, right? And so we're both huge sports fans. So I just thought about it from the standpoint of what do fan, what as a dolphin or Yankee fan, what, where do I want to be brought into games to be able to know what's going to happen before it's going to happen? And so one of the things that we do is we are, we are able to go live into the huddles. And so,
for the NBA, for college football, like for the NFL. Like I don't think Bill Belichick was ever dying to have a live, his audio live during a game. I don't think Greg Popovich is sitting around being like, I want to let you watch my play being drawn up before a game winning shot. But we're like, well, that's what fans want. And so we need to give our fans.
Mike (10:33.494)
Probably not.
Marc Kohn (10:52.526)
what they actually want. And so where we want to win, we have to be able to win with access. We have to be able to bring people to places where everybody else can't go, won't go, because we have to be able to deliver a fan first experience. And so, yeah, under two minutes in a game, we are going into the offensive huddle.
to watch what play is going to be drawn up. And then we're moving via the wire cam visually to the defensive huddle to hear how they are looking to defend whatever play they think the offense is going to run. And so the good thing is, is that our games are on about a 20 to 30 second delay.
And so there is no ability for any of the coaching staff to be able to kind of co -op that video to be able to cheat. But from a fan experience standpoint, our fans are able to be like, my Lord, they're gonna run the play for my favorite player. And you're just kind of watching to see how it all evolves or devolves in real time. We also take you into the locker room.
Mike (12:17.206)
Do you think, real quick on that, that's such an interesting point and a real differentiator from how traditional games are broadcast. In the NFL, Tony Romo came out when he first entered the booth, right? And he's predicting the plays that were gonna happen, which was really fun as a fan. He doesn't do that as much anymore, and the theories are that he's a little further away from the game, maybe he isn't quite as in touch with what's happening.
Marc Kohn (12:35.626)
Yep, it was great.
Mike (12:46.998)
Some say that maybe he was told to stop doing that by an exec or whatever. So you guys don't have to worry about any of that. Do you think that having that knowledge, listening in on the huddle as a fan or as someone in the audience is additive? Do you think not knowing the play before actually makes the play more interesting or having that insight and that anticipation actually is additive? Where does that net out?
Marc Kohn (13:16.302)
So to me, I think it's completely additive because you know what they're going to run. And then if you're the fan of that team, you're like, are they running a defense that's going to allow this play to work? And then at the same time, if the play doesn't work, you know, like you can kind of go back and be like, this player didn't do X, Y or Z. And you kind of know what happened or why it.
kind of devolved or didn't work. I think it adds, to me, it adds a layer for sure. I think about it for myself, if I was able to be on headset for the Miami Dolphins and know every play call that was going on before the play, I would 100 % wear the headset and want to know every single play that we were calling on both sides of the ball. And one of the other things that we do is we go live into the locker room as well.
at halftime of the games to kind of hear the adjustments that are going to be had. And then sometimes like, if you're down by 20, you get a little more than just the adjustments that have to be made.
Mike (14:31.862)
Yeah, that's that's amazing. I mean, because how often do you hear like, we made some halftime adjustments and like no one knows if they like actually made adjustments or like nobody actually knows. So that's really cool.
Marc Kohn (14:41.454)
Yeah. I mean, Peyton Manning used to say that they used to eat a couple of pieces of orange and then go back out there. And like, there wasn't any.
Mike (14:48.638)
And that that would have been really cool to see too, right? If like that was what they did, yeah.
Marc Kohn (14:52.974)
Exactly. Yeah. As many times as you can kind of bring people fly on the wall as possible, I think it's tremendous from a viewer point of view. We did see the Dodger player make the error while talking to the ESPN reporter this week. That was...
Mike (15:12.726)
Yeah, I know that's such a hard thing. I like think about that. I'm like that. I love it. I love the access and I love being inside the ropes in golf when they're like playing a hole during a tournament. Like that's incredible access and like that is the industry sort of listening right because 10 years ago like that stuff was just absolutely not on the table and now you're seeing that which is which is amazing. But I do think about that.
Marc Kohn (15:16.846)
Yes. Yeah.
Marc Kohn (15:21.902)
Yep.
Marc Kohn (15:35.498)
Thank you.
Mike (15:41.078)
But getting back to creating the league and yeah, like the different access that you guys have and the different types of content that you have is of course advantageous since you guys are like the owners of the thing and it's probably easier for you to get into access than it would be if you were like trying to do something with like another league that you don't own, right? But how else like, not just with the content, but you know, like the way that you structured the sport, right?
like how long the quarters were, that super bonus thing that you guys do, right? I mean, there's a penalty shot. Like doing things like that, right? And how did you guys balance doing new stuff like that while also making it still feel like a professional basketball league, you know?
Marc Kohn (16:15.182)
the bonus.
Marc Kohn (16:32.526)
Yeah, so all like the rules meetings are done with, you know, the coaches, the trainers and the basketball people, like the basketball operation. And the big bonus actually came from one of our skills trainers. He had said something in a meeting of like, hey, they have a power play in hockey, is there a way to do, is there a way to have something, you know, similar? And,
what ended up happening in that meeting was like, okay, free throws are the most boring thing, especially in the first three and a half quarters. There's not any excitement around any free throws. So what happens if instead of on a non shooting foul, instead of shooting one -on -one or going into the bonus and shooting two free throws, what if we played five on four for 14 seconds? And what ended up happening was,
Kevin Olley, who obviously won a couple of national championship at UConn, ended up being the interim head coach of the Brooklyn Nets this past year. He got up on a whiteboard and diagrammed basically a drill that they run in practice on a weekly basis.
to kind of teach, you know, fast break decision -making. And so our five on four power play is actually a drill that a lot of college and NBA teams run as a fast break drill in practice each week. And we ended up being like, okay, this is, you know, gonna be something that we go for and sure.
we heard from different people on how this is a gimmick and that's gimmick and that's, you know, people, you know, anytime there's something new in the world, there's going to be critics of it. But interestingly enough, in talking to NBA general managers and NBA scouts, we've gotten a lot of great feedback on it because it's actually something,
Mike (18:29.334)
Right.
Mike (18:36.758)
course.
Marc Kohn (18:52.206)
from a decision -making standpoint that they are able to watch that play and be able to get a little bit of knowledge of did this player, a lot of times, a point guard or a shooting guard, make a right decision on a fast break situation. So.
knowing that when they come to an OTE game, they're gonna get to watch a few situations that are sure they are structured in a way, but they are going to have a few of those situations where they get to watch a guard have to make a decision that they might not have been able to see. And so we've gotten some really good feedback on that one. The other rule that we put in place was if there's a turnover in the front court,
which would be then the back court for the offensive team, the referee does not have to touch the ball. So the team can take it, the now offensive team can take the ball out of bounds quickly and inbound the ball ahead to try to create a fast break opportunity. So those are really the two rules that I would say that we put in place that created some differentiation. There's a couple of things that I've heard in some recent meetings that I think are -
Mike (20:00.15)
interesting. Sure.
Marc Kohn (20:15.31)
pretty are pretty brilliant that hopefully we can get in the mix for this coming year. But I think everything that we're looking at.
Mike (20:24.758)
Come on, come on. You can't do that to us. We want to know what's the new rule.
Marc Kohn (20:29.966)
I can't, someone might take it from us.
Mike (20:33.014)
Yeah, yeah, probably not the NBA would be my guess. But I hear you. So OK, that's amazing. And again, you mentioned you guys are talking about this stuff. Like the new rules and new things and new ways to sort of like optimize the game experience for the platforms that you're on and for the audience that's watching. It's pretty unique that you guys are able to like.
create these rules like the big bonus that the NBA can't take a swing like that. They're not able to. It would be precedent breaking. They have 60, 70 years of history that come into play more than that. So it's just much harder for them. As you guys have gone through now a couple of seasons of this, three, right? Three seasons now? Three full seasons.
Marc Kohn (21:23.086)
Three, four seasons, yeah.
Mike (21:26.486)
What would you say is a lesson that you guys have learned that the NBA or college broadcasters could learn? Like what's a thing that you've kind of uncovered that, you know, maybe they should like be inspired by and take notice of.
Marc Kohn (21:40.846)
I think it's really hard because I think all of the MBA partners of TNT, ESPN, I have unbelievable admiration for how Fox does their live broadcasts as well. Fox especially, I think they are the best in business. And they do such a great job and they have, you know,
Mike (22:01.298)
Mm -hmm.
Marc Kohn (22:10.03)
announcer, you know, you end up, I mean, Amazon, obviously with Al and Herbie, you have, you know, Burkhart and I think Greg Olson is amazing. And Mike Green is like astonishing. And so we really don't try to play their game, right? Like they spend a lot more money on the broadcast they have. And we have unbelievable facility and equipment, but.
I can't go head to head with them on a lot of the production toys that they have. And so I've always looked at things as like not trying to play their game. Like you can't ESPN ESPN. Like you can't out Fox Fox. Like they're just, we're not gonna win from that standpoint. And so,
Mike (23:00.118)
Yeah, no.
Marc Kohn (23:08.11)
We spend a lot of time storytelling around our players and games. I think that is something where obviously it's a little different from us, right? Is that when we have, you know, Ken and Catchings playing for the Cold Hearts, we're introducing him to an audience that there's not that many people the first couple of times that have watched him know who he is. And...
Obviously when you watch the Lakers play, you know who Anthony Davis is, you know who LeBron James is. And so there doesn't have to be as much storytelling around it, but I do think for a younger audience, there's the opportunity to introduce them to players on a more frequent basis. And that's something I even say to myself of like, we're still not doing more storytelling around our players and giving them more,
more reason to care about the players. So I try to treat all of our broadcasts in some ways, like they are drive to survive in some ways. Now you're not gonna be able to tell that sort of depth of story, but I always look at our game broadcasts as the ability to tell a story and to tell the story of the teams and the players. And so that there's more buy -in for somebody to wanna watch.
Mike (24:16.918)
Mm.
Marc Kohn (24:34.414)
the next game. I always, I always try, we're always trying to produce our games for people that are coming for the first time. And I think that that is something that obviously the NFL at this stage in their life doesn't need to do. But, you know, when I watch a random, when I watch a random NFL game and I am as plugged in as there can be, there are a bunch of players where I don't really know their story at all. And there's a chance.
there was the opportunity to get people to kind of latch on more and more to their stories.
Mike (25:09.622)
Well, I mean, it's a good segue into the news that came out maybe maybe today at the time of this recording, but Malik Thomas signing up for overtime elite is a top prospect. I think ESPN, Adam Seventh from what I saw in their list. And I just found his hit the quote that he gave ESPN super interesting. He said, like he was asked about why overtime elite, he said, at OTE, they get your name out. Everything they do goes around the world. I want to be broadcasted more.
Marc Kohn (25:24.11)
Thanks, man.
Mike (25:39.19)
So it's just like, you know, as the world of youth sports, right, especially on the highest levels, everything that's going on in college with NIL and all of the changes that are happening there. And, you know, folks like you guys sort of rising up, you know, it's, I find it interesting in how the current youth athlete is going to evolve from here. Right. And clearly, like Malik Thomas said, like part of the appeal of going to overtime elite was to be part of this content engine that you guys have.
Have you found that to be pretty consistent in all these conversations that you're having with kids across the country?
Marc Kohn (26:16.174)
I mean, I think there's certainly a greater percentage of players today that want to do content and want to grow their brands compared to 10 years ago, nevermind 20 years ago, and for good reason, right? I mean, now with NIL in college, the ability to build your brand to be as big as possible has...
very large financial rewards for those players. And also, the bigger that, and where it helps even more potentially is for players who might never end up being NBA All -Stars and getting $100 million contracts. It helps for people that might want to be in marketing. It helps for people that...
might wanna build a business down the road that they're able to kind of have this channel and have this community of people, oftentimes in the hundreds of thousands of people where they then can kind of activate that audience to be able to monetize something else in the future. I think you're seeing it, I think Mac McClung is a great example of that.
Mike (27:44.118)
Yeah, that's so it is a like this world that you guys are in that all the colleges are in has changed more in the last five years than in the last 50. You know it.
Marc Kohn (27:54.382)
Yeah, maybe the last five weeks.
Mike (27:58.262)
Yeah, exactly right. I know it's just like, like, nobody knows what the end state of this is all going to look like if there ever is an end state, like it just may continuously evolve. I do find it. I found it really interesting following like the Dan Hurley going to the Lakers news and all how that all developed. And some people were like, the, all the NIL drama that he will have to deal with going forward may be a reason for him to leave and go to the NBA. But it may also be a reason for players to stick around a little bit longer.
Marc Kohn (28:22.35)
Yep.
Mike (28:28.47)
in college, right? Like if you're gonna be the 30th pick of the NBA draft or were somewhere in the second round, why not stick around in college for another year or two, get better and now you get paid. That's the difference in the equation now. So as you guys like go forward with overtime elite, like is there anything that you need to do to like adjust your pitch to these kids as they're like thinking about what they wanna do? Or do you guys think you sort of like fit really nicely?
Marc Kohn (28:29.07)
Thank you.
Marc Kohn (28:40.942)
Yeah.
Mike (28:57.334)
in the process as they go from youth high school to college to the NBA or however that path might be.
Marc Kohn (29:04.91)
Yeah, I think we fit really nicely in that process. There's no other place where you have the facilities that from strength and conditioning to high level trainers and coaches, to nutrition, to academics, to brand building as we do. And so,
Now, we're sitting in a place where we are the unique opportunity before they go to Duke, Arkansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, so forth and so on.
Mike (29:51.638)
Got it, okay. That's so interesting. And it's probably this whole, if I talk to you next year, like this whole conversation, but maybe just even like a little bit different the way things are going, it's crazy.
Marc Kohn (30:02.894)
Yeah, I think where things are going continues to put us in a really good position with players in that, with the top players in that age group.
Mike (30:17.782)
Amazing. So we've talked a lot about basketball here, but you guys are not just doing basketball, even though basketball has historically sort of been like the bread and butter of the overtime content engine. And it makes sense that overtime elite would be like such a quick success based on all of the other success you've had in basketball. But you guys are also launching other leagues, OT seven for football, OT X for boxing, overtime select for women's basketball, which is cool.
Marc Kohn (30:28.75)
Yeah.
Mike (30:47.414)
I also noticed, and that this was interesting, like when I first sort of like met you and met like your team, when I was at snap, you know, like the, the, the emphasis was definitely on like the content that you guys were creating and probably the merch in the store that you guys were selling, which is obviously hugely popular. but now when you go to the, to the overtime website, it's like the leagues are like the prominent thing. So like, it's so interesting to watch you guys evolve from like.
Marc Kohn (31:04.622)
Yeah.
Mike (31:16.182)
content business focused on developing cool talent and creating original properties to then being this league creation company, which is fascinating. So is the ambition to have an OTE -like property for every sport? And if so, what sport is next? We have basketball, football, boxing, and women's basketball. Where are we going next?
Marc Kohn (31:38.03)
So I don't know if it'll be water polo or I know the Olympics are coming.
Mike (31:41.078)
No!
Mike (31:46.902)
Yeah, why do I laugh? Why not water polo, right? Like, who knows? Maybe that would be sick. I don't know.
Marc Kohn (31:49.55)
Why not? I actually always enjoy it. I actually think water polo is pretty fun sport to watch, but
Mike (31:56.406)
Physically incredibly impressive athletes, right? Yeah.
Marc Kohn (31:59.47)
unbelievable, they tread water for hours. Like I have zero idea how the men and women do that. That is a crazy one to me. I think right this second, we're focused on those four and building all of the content around that, right? And so, we've been in a world traditionally where,
we make content to help support other people's brands and leagues and why not take our content engine and kind of turn it around and help grow our own IP? And so I think that has been a lot of our focus over the last couple of years. And to me, it's, will there be another,
overtime league probably? Is there something right now like really down the stretch on the drawing board? I wouldn't say that. I mean, we have a lot of conversations about different properties that we'd like to build. So is that, you know, six months, 12 months, who knows?
Mike (33:23.574)
Gotcha.
Marc Kohn (33:25.742)
But yeah, I mean, the leagues are incredibly important and they're fun, they're challenging in all of the right ways.
Mike (33:35.702)
Yeah. So one thing I've talked a little bit about on this show, I'm fascinated by the dynamic between rights owners and publishers, right? And, you know, like in my time at Snap, I dealt with that from a few different perspectives, but there is this like healthy tension there of the rights owner, you know, in this case, like the NFL, for example, right? Where they are protecting their brand.
Marc Kohn (33:45.774)
Yeah, sure.
Mike (34:04.374)
They look at content mostly as marketing. It's like a way to continue to drive people towards the live game experiences. You know, their digital team is phenomenal. Like I've worked with them all and they do some amazing work, but certainly like there are stories that they probably wouldn't cover in the same way that Barstool would, right? Barstool being like the other end of the spectrum there. So it's interesting for you guys. You guys have like the bones and the DNA of like an independent content company.
So how do you balance like that, like your instincts for content being very much like optimizing for story, optimizing for engagement and all of that versus now you're also a rights owner, right? Where you are looking out for like the brand and the prestige and the reputation of Overtime Elite and the other leagues, for example. How do you balance being the owner?
while also still making sure that you're optimizing for engagement and storytelling.
Marc Kohn (35:08.27)
It's definitely been something that is hard, right? And so the thing that, you put on different hats, right? You put on the hat of like, hey, this would get us a lot of views, but at the same time, it's like, this isn't great for our brand, right? And so brand and views are a thing that you kind of have to,
really look at. But at the same time, you never want to be, you know, Pollyanna and, you know, and be, I would say, you know, boastful with like, this is the greatest thing I've ever, like, you don't want to be so over the top and you want, you need to be able to be genuine and honest with your, with the audience.
And so it is certainly a delicate balance and tap dance around different things. But we want to be real and we want to be able to take people where other leagues won't be able to go while at the same time making sure we are being good and true to the brand that we want.
to uphold and so I would say we are definitely, we're definitely gonna push the envelope more than leagues that have been around for, you know, 100 years. But at the same time, we do have to kind of think about it from the standpoint of like, hey, we do own the league and we have to do, and we have to,
do the things that we know will grow our sports, our leagues to their fullest potential.
Mike (37:14.422)
Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, I think about how like, so when I first started at MLB network back in the day, MLB network launched in 2009. That's when I got there. This is majorly baseball, the oldest of old sports leagues in this country, like creating their own national sports television network. Right. and like the content team they had and still have is phenomenal.
And there was some sort of steroid scandal that broke that year. So they were tested on this right away and they were really good about it. Like their stance was, we're going to like treat this like as if we're ESPN. And they were able to do that at least initially. And I think, especially if you listen to Scott Braun, who was on this podcast a few weeks ago, that hasn't stayed like that over time.
Marc Kohn (37:48.942)
What? Ugh.
Marc Kohn (38:05.326)
Yeah.
Marc Kohn (38:08.75)
Yeah.
Mike (38:10.07)
So I understand how that's like, it's such a hard day and it's hard balancing out.
Marc Kohn (38:13.102)
It is, but at the same time, we know we can't be state TV as well, right? And we have to, if a team isn't winning, we can't be like, they're playing great. We're not going to be like the different teams that have removed announcers for saying that the team hasn't played well when they haven't played well. And so that isn't, you know, so.
We have to, if you're not going to be honest with the audience, you're not going to have an audience. So that is the, that to me is generally kind of where my brain and the team's direction goes to like, these are things that are happening. And especially when they happen during a game, right? And like all our games are broadcast. So.
If it's something that hundreds of thousands of people could see, also there's other people that can post that as well. You don't have complete control when you're live broadcasting something. What is this? You have...
Mike (39:31.574)
I don't know. We'll just cut around that, I guess. No, but okay, so that's a really good point. I will be watching closely as you guys navigate that. It's such an interesting like dilemma from a content perspective. And you guys have done a great job. I've watched a bunch of the broadcasts. They feel super authentic. So yeah, keep fighting the good fight.
Marc Kohn (39:32.75)
That was weird.
Marc Kohn (39:54.51)
Thank you.
Marc Kohn (39:59.442)
We have had the conversation of what happens if like a streaker runs out onto the court. So you'll have to tune in to see what it has happened in three minutes.
Mike (40:07.67)
What? So what? Aw, come on! I want to know what the Overtime Elite Streaker plan is. I really want to know.
Marc Kohn (40:15.79)
In three years, we haven't had that happen, but you'll see if we post it or not, if it ever happens.
Mike (40:25.93)
my God, are you guys just all sitting around just like waiting to like execute the Streaker plan? Like once it happens, like I, I, I, for your sake, maybe I hope that that never happens, but like it also would be really interesting. Now, now you've got me peaked. I like really want to know. so, okay. we mentioned you guys are producing all these live sports games, all these like live events. many of them are broadcast on Amazon. They're broadcast on.
Marc Kohn (40:41.998)
Yeah.
Mike (40:54.806)
on YouTube as well, right?
Marc Kohn (40:56.718)
Yep. And our 87 we broadcast on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, and then also we had a two hour window every weekend on NFL Network.
Mike (41:09.558)
Amazing. So live sports, you know, especially as this conversation with the NBA media rights deal is sort of like coming to a crescendo at the time of this taping and that's moving very quickly. So, you know, who knows what will happen in the next couple of days? Two days, less than two days from now. So.
Marc Kohn (41:20.206)
Yeah. When are you posting this?
okay. I think the news will hold up.
Mike (41:32.662)
Okay, great. Even if it doesn't, that doesn't change the nature of the conversation we're about to have here. But yeah, the NBA is going to command a massive amount of money for rights. Every time live sports comes up for these streaming companies and traditional companies to purchase, it seems like more money keeps flowing in. So you guys are creating live sports and you're having conversations with these platforms about live sports and the value that live sports brings to them.
Marc Kohn (41:36.878)
Everglades.
Mike (42:02.198)
So from your perspective, now that you've sort of like had like seen that like pretty directly and like you're as a as a live sports provider, like why do you think that format of content maintains such a high value to these media companies and streaming services?
Marc Kohn (42:20.014)
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty clear in that live sports right now, I think 65 million cable homes right now, and live sports is kind of the last thing that people have to tune into when it happens. It's still not a DVR or VOD.
watching format that people generally watch sports in. Now that has changed for us, our YouTube VOD watching is extremely high. And I think that's the nature of the next generation of audience. But the difference between people who watch YouTube and the people who are watching the...
Mike (43:05.238)
Really?
Marc Kohn (43:15.854)
cable television, watching streaming platforms, streaming platforms for live sports is that that person is generally just much older, right? And so, oftentimes 55 years or older, and they've been watching sports live forever, and that's kind of what they do. But I would say the reason that live sports are worth so much money is the predictability.
in how many people are going to show up to watch and what age group they are and what do they look like. Like all of those things are very predictable for live sports compared to if you created a movie or you created a new sitcom or a new drama. Whether you have a hit.
or you don't have a hit and most of the time you don't have it, most of the time you don't have a hit, you know that if you buy the NFL package that 10 million people plus are going to go watch that, are going to go watch that. You know when you're YouTube and you buy Sunday ticket, you know millions of people are going to subscribe to that and watch it for three, four, five, six, seven hours in my case.
every Sunday. And so it's really about the predictability of the audience size and what that person looks like is incredibly predictable and more transactional for how they can generate advertising dollars around that audience.
Mike (45:03.926)
That's so interesting that the VOD for overtime elite is like substantial. So you think, is that, so your hypothesis there is that has to do with younger audiences, just viewing behavior, yeah.
Marc Kohn (45:13.038)
very substantial.
Marc Kohn (45:21.326)
Yes, you know, so yeah, 75 % of our audience watching watching our live broadcasts even and watching our games is under the age of 35 years old.
Mike (45:33.142)
Yeah. So, so you think it's. Yeah. Yeah.
Marc Kohn (45:34.926)
which is the exact opposite of broadcast television, which is 75 % of the audience is 55 to death. So like it's a very different, you know, audience.
Mike (45:43.094)
Yeah. Yeah. So is your hypothesis that this is generational? Like it's just like younger people have different viewing habits and behaviors, or is it like, is it the platforms that you operate on like that are causing some of that driving some of that behavior?
Marc Kohn (45:54.962)
Thank you.
Marc Kohn (46:02.926)
So some of it is, I think, the platform and the audience behavior. I think the other part is that we really look at the two -hour broadcasts for OTE and then even the longer ones for OT7 as two hours of entertainment. I've always talked about not caring about, we're a sports media company. To me, like,
we're creating, like sports are fun, it's entertainment for our audience. And if we have a 20 point blowout, what is our roving reporter who we call, what we call VibeCam, how is that person, how are our announcers able to pivot to be able to create an entertaining additional 20, 30 minutes for it.
as long as the game isn't as exciting, how can we make the broadcast exciting so that the viewer doesn't want to kind of tune out? And so I think our broadcasts have kind of turned into also like afterschool programming for different kids to go and just watch the broadcast because our announcers are entertaining, the access is entertaining. And so...
thinking about it of how you are combining like a drive to survive storytelling with a sense of comedy because our announcers are going to be more comedic in nature than what a standard, you know, NFL or NBA broadcast would be and kind of molding all of those sorts of things together where if the game is a 20 point game, it's still entertaining for them to watch in the fourth quarter compared to.
you know, if we just like rolled the ball out there, just called it like, you know, you know, called play by play like everybody else did does, and just like have our announcers complain that it's a 20 point game and they just want to get out, get out of there and get, get, get to the post game show so that they can go to dinner.
Mike (48:15.542)
That's fascinating. I mean, it is like live content is certainly, I mean, there's still some of obviously so much value in being able to broadcast some like live sports. There is this element though of like the unpredictability of it is the that's the upside and the downside, right? You know, like some nights you'll get.
Marc Kohn (48:35.47)
Yes.
Mike (48:40.694)
a Luka Donchich game winner, right? That like sends the crowd into a frenzy and it's like the greatest broadcast ever. Social is on fire. And then other nights it's, you know, game one of the NBA finals, which was like a snooze fest mostly. And you just like, yeah, so if you guys are able to solve for that, I mean, that would be, that's incredible. It's easier to do than done.
Marc Kohn (48:52.462)
Yeah.
Marc Kohn (48:58.606)
Yeah, you're not gonna perfectly solve for it, but I think we are on the path of self.
Mike (49:09.75)
Amazing. So you mentioned the play -by -play, like, announcers and just general talent that you're putting around OTE, OT7, and as well as the rest of the overtime universe. You guys have always done a phenomenal job of identifying and growing talent, right? Right now, overtime Megan is a big star that I feel like even my wife knows who that is. And like,
That's always been the case at overtime going way back. You guys also do an amazing job of, you know, cultivating like operational talent, right? And like producers who are super skilled and, you know, able to make all this great content. So yeah, I like, I do want to talk a little bit about how you guys feel about on air talent and just like influencers and that sort of thing. But just in general, in this world where the content landscape is constantly changing and what users and audiences.
want is always changing. How do you develop and keep and grow your talent who is like super good at speaking to these audiences? Because I imagine somebody that was really good for you guys, you know, six years ago, like their editorial senses have to evolve in order to still be super useful and plugged in today.
Marc Kohn (50:29.07)
Yeah, I mean, the best talent is able to evolve into different formats and through different cycles of whether it's the internet, radio, television, and we've seen it over and over again from like the very, at the very top of the pyramid. I think for us, when we're thinking about our...
are broadcast from a talent standpoint. It's like, who is the audience, right? And so I'll give you the difference. Like for OTE, we use a group called A &P to call over half of our games. And they are a YouTube group who is really like, they're hysterical and they're dynamic and...
agent who does our version of play -by -play is just unbelievable. He could be whatever he wants to be from a broadcasting perspective, because he's really that talented. The ability for him to have an earpiece in, get in and out of breaks as cleanly as he does.
We've been really blessed to have him, but he kind of sets the energy, kind of like creates with Duke Davis. We have a guy, Sniper Jones. We have overtime Tom who runs our social, who is our sideline reporter, basically because.
he knows what he would post on social. So it's like, hey, how do you create those moments live in the broadcast? And for us, it's like actually less about giving them a million notes on different things, but letting them be themselves because they understand this audience better than I would even.
Mike (52:20.214)
cool.
Marc Kohn (52:42.158)
understand that audience. And so there's certain things from a technical perspective that we can help them with and give direction on. But really what we're trying to do is give the audience something that feels in the culture and marrying kind of the in the culture with basketball and putting both of those pieces together. And
It's not a manning cast by any stretch of the imagination, but it's unconventional from how you would produce that game broadcast. And that's because that audience for OTE is really deep in that culture and you need to be able to give them, it needs to feel and sound.
like how high school and college kids talk. And in order for it to really resonate as this really next generation basketball league. And on the football side, that audience could be a little bit older. We're unconventional, but we have some former college football players who are part of the broadcast. And that audience, a lot of that audience is our college football fans. And so...
the people that are watching are interested in like, is this the future quarterback of Michigan or Ohio State? And to be able to get have some people who can give some technical analysis to make them more knowledgeable about their players. And so it's not always like, you know, you do for one league what you do for another. I think overtime select will feel more like OTE.
We have a couple of broadcasters and current players that will do the broadcasts and I think that will kind of give it, it's a little twist on what OTE is today.
Mike (54:50.486)
I am so intrigued by the idea of having someone like Overtime Tom as the sideline reporter and not anything to do with him necessarily, but more the idea that you guys are thinking about social and digital media as you're building a league, right? And this is sort of like another offshoot of that, where it's like for the networks, when they pick a sideline reporter,
They're optimizing for the television broadcast, right? Like they're like, who is gonna give us the best sideline report and give us the things that we need for the TV audience? You know, whereas you guys can kind of do both. Like you guys are able to say, why don't we like have the person in this position be like a super smart social person and sort of be thinking about both at the same time. I think that's like really interesting and unique.
Marc Kohn (55:43.47)
Yeah, I honestly think it's one of the things that sets our broadcasts apart in a different way and makes them different is his ability to get to the thing that you would want to see or hear on Instagram or TikTok in real time. Like what's that moment? Like what, he, and I think that is such a special skill and he's so quick.
and on his feet, he really, he boggles my mind with how sharp he is in real time.
Mike (56:22.166)
Okay, so you mentioned Instagram and TikTok.
Marc Kohn (56:24.654)
And he's fearless. Like that's the other part of it is that like, and he takes direction. If you push him on like, go do that, like he's on it. Like he is trying to figure out how to create moments.
Mike (56:37.75)
Okay, so you mentioned Instagram and TikTok. I wanna, as we come to a close here, I wanna play a game. It is, this is high school sports we're talking about, youth sports in many respects. It is graduation time. So I wanna play digital media superlatives, right, with you. So I have three very quick questions, although like you can go as long as you want, but like it's not meant to be like a super long thing, but like you can do whatever you want with it.
Marc Kohn (56:41.582)
Yeah.
Marc Kohn (56:57.486)
Great.
Marc Kohn (57:07.438)
Rapid fire.
Mike (57:07.766)
Yeah, I guess. Okay, Superlivre number one, tech platform most likely to thrive post -TikTok.
Marc Kohn (57:17.678)
YouTube.
Mike (57:20.31)
just because of the audience? Well, I mean, like, over like rapid, maybe not rapid, but like quick fire. Can we do, yeah, like not slow, not rapid, but like, you know, quick fire.
Marc Kohn (57:20.718)
You too. That's why I was gonna wrap this on air.
Marc Kohn (57:37.198)
Yeah, YouTube, I would say the thing that, I mean, obviously they have shorts to go along with long form. I think they'll win even further in the YouTube space, sorry, in the long form space. But the ability to probably marry the two algorithms together, I think has.
a pretty powerful, a pretty powerful effect. But I would say, I would bet that TikTok is still with us in a year or two.
Mike (58:20.502)
Yeah, I know. There's like a fun conversation about it. And that's kind of like, I kind of tend to agree. The idea that it's just gonna like go away seems so disruptive and so big that it's like hard to wrap your head around. If like, if it got to the point where it's like, okay, on January 3rd, TikTok will be gone from everyone's phone. Like it'll just be like deleted off of everyone's, like hundreds of millions of people.
It just feels like that's not gonna happen and I'm not a lawyer. I don't know how like the court battle is gonna go here, but or like how the &A process for it will go. But yeah, I think I'm with you there. Okay, this is quick fire, so I'm I'm slowing it down. Best non overtime account to follow like who do you love on social that's not associated with your stuff?
Marc Kohn (59:15.374)
who's not associated.
our stuff? Who do I love? Who do I think is doing a good job on social? I want to go outside of sports. I mean, is it so lame to say Mr. Beast?
Mike (59:34.134)
No, of course not.
Marc Kohn (59:35.822)
It feels pretty lame to say Mr. Beast.
Mike (59:37.782)
I mean, you like who you like. I mean, there's hundreds of millions of people, 270 million subscribers that really like what he does. So you're certainly not alone.
Marc Kohn (59:47.406)
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say that anybody is as creative and as good as him.
Mike (59:55.51)
Yeah, what do you think makes him special?
Marc Kohn (59:59.214)
He's just able to create, I mean, a lot of these game shows in these like unconventional, in these unconventional, quick to understand ways that if you, you can pick up the game in like literally two seconds and he's able to put really good twists on everything.
Mike (01:00:20.726)
Okay, finally, sport most easily converted to AI robots as the athletes.
Marc Kohn (01:00:28.878)
as the athletes?
Mike (01:00:30.486)
as the athletes. Yeah, so like we're sitting around watching robots play basketball.
Marc Kohn (01:00:35.246)
I mean, football would be the biggest, I would say football would be the biggest sport. I don't know if it's the easiest sport. I don't know enough about AI to say if it's, I would guess soccer would be the easiest one to create. AI robots.
Mike (01:00:49.846)
I guess what you would be considering is like, you watch those Boston Dynamics videos of the little robot dogs that they make and the Tesla robots and stuff. And it's like movement, agility of these things is a really important factor in what sport they can play. So if you're, that's why I think I'm.
Marc Kohn (01:01:09.262)
Yeah.
Mike (01:01:16.63)
sort of with you and like basketball seems tough because the technology behind these robots is gonna have to be so like advanced in like how they move and their balance and their ability to jump and all of that in order for it to like replicate how humans can move. That just feels like further off. The question is easily, most easily converted. So like maybe it's like bowling, right? Or golf, you know?
Marc Kohn (01:01:38.35)
Yeah.
golf for sure, right?
Mike (01:01:44.95)
You got no respect for golf?
Marc Kohn (01:01:47.15)
I have a lot of respect for golf. It's hard to hit a golf ball straight. I don't think I'm interested in AI sports at all. I like robot umpires for baseball.
Mike (01:01:50.518)
Yeah.
Mike (01:02:01.654)
Like, okay, when you say robot umpire, are you thinking there is a literal robot behind the plate? Like doing the punch outs and it's like actually a robot.
Marc Kohn (01:02:06.414)
Nah. Nah.
I'd be fine with that. I think that's great. That's a great idea. I think it's a great idea.
Mike (01:02:13.398)
That would be kind of great, right? Like imagine a manager trying to have an argument with like a robot because like they missed a call or something.
Marc Kohn (01:02:21.39)
I would love to get a robot official for OTE and he would get into so many great, great arguments with the City Reapers head coach, Doug Martin. I would love to get a robot official.
Mike (01:02:37.43)
I'm sorry.
Marc Kohn (01:02:38.478)
You better post this one. I'll share. I want to share this video with him.
Mike (01:02:43.03)
Okay, I 100 % will. So I guess, yeah, the referees look out. AI referees, maybe that's the play.
Marc Kohn (01:02:50.734)
I think that's a great call.
Mike (01:02:53.302)
All right, Mark, thank you so much for joining the show. Thank you so much for the time. That was super interesting. And we'll talk again soon.
Marc Kohn (01:02:56.142)
Thank you. Thank you, Stric.
Awesome. Sounds good? Cool. Peace.