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What if being productive, successful, and dependable is not proof that you are okay, but the mask hiding how much you are struggling?
In this episode of hol+ with Dr. Taz MD, board-certified psychiatrist and High Functioning author Dr. Judith Joseph explores the hidden patterns often described as high-functioning depression. These are the people who continue working, parenting, achieving, and caring for everyone around them, even while feeling emotionally empty inside.
Dr. Joseph explains why depression does not always look like sadness, how anhedonia can leave you feeling disconnected from joy, and why people-pleasing often comes at the expense of your own mental and physical health.
She also breaks down her five Vs for thriving:
• Validation: acknowledging and naming what you feel
• Venting: expressing emotions in a healthy, authentic way
• Values: reconnecting with what gives your life meaning
• Vitals: supporting your brain through food, movement, sleep, technology boundaries, and healthy relationships
• Vision: planning joy and celebrating your wins
• Venting: expressing emotions in a healthy, authentic way
• Values: reconnecting with what gives your life meaning
• Vitals: supporting your brain through food, movement, sleep, technology boundaries, and healthy relationships
• Vision: planning joy and celebrating your wins
Dr. Taz and Dr. Joseph also discuss how culture shapes mental health, the effect of toxic relationships, nutritional psychiatry, why children and teenagers are struggling, and how families can create more open communication and emotional connection at home.
If you are always “the strong one,” but privately feel exhausted, numb, or disconnected, this conversation may help you recognize what has been hiding beneath the surface.
About Dr. Judith Joseph:
Dr. Judith Joseph is a board-certified psychiatrist, researcher, speaker, and author who works across pediatric and adult mental health. She is the author of High Functioning: Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, which explores the hidden emotional struggles experienced by people who appear successful and capable on the outside but feel numb, overwhelmed, or disconnected internally. Through her clinical practice, research, speaking, and educational content, Dr. Judith focuses on making complex mental-health concepts understandable and helping people develop practical tools for greater emotional awareness, meaning, and joy.
Connect with Dr. Judith Joseph:
About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician, bestselling author, and founder of hol+, a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician, bestselling author, and founder of hol+, a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about
Stay Connected:
Connect further with hol+ at https://holplus.co/ and don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated on future episodes of hol+.
Connect further with hol+ at https://holplus.co/ and don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated on future episodes of hol+.
Book a Hol+ Consultation:
https://holplus.co/locations/virtual/
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Produced by https://ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)
Creators and Guests
Host
What is hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic?
hol+ with Dr. Taz MD is redefining modern medicine through a comprehensive, evidence-based holistic approach; integrating functional medicine, integrative medicine, and time-tested healing systems to treat the whole human, not just symptoms.
Hosted by Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz), triple board-certified physician in integrative, functional, and holistic medicine, bestselling Penguin Random House author, and founder of hol+; a comprehensive evidence-based holistic medicine platform with clinics in Atlanta, New York City, and Los Angeles, and virtual care available nationwide.
At the heart of hol+ is a revolutionary framework: the Five Body Map- physical, mental, emotional, energetic, and social/community bodies that create whole health. This whole-human approach connects hormone imbalances, gut dysfunction, microinflammation, cortisol dysregulation, metabolic disease, autoimmune conditions, perimenopause, and stress-driven illness to the full spectrum of who we are; body, mind, and spirit.
Each episode explores Dr. Taz’s original clinical frameworks ;The Cortisol Loop, Microinflammation, and The Invisible Load alongside conversations with leading experts, celebrities, and thought leaders including Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, Katherine Schwarzenegger, Cameron Mathison, Carol Alt, Jane Seymour, Tamsen Fadal, and Kris Carr.
Topics include hormone health, gut health, GLP-1 and metabolic therapy, thyroid dysfunction, weight loss, inflammation, autoimmune disease, mental and emotional wellness, energetic health, and the future of holistic medicine.
This is the show where science and spirit converge- driving health, happiness, relationships, and family ecosystems.
Want to go deeper? Join Dr. Taz’s private community, the hol+ Circle ; medicine beyond the exam room. (holplus.co/circle)
A 2025 Webby Award honoree, recognized alongside the Mel Robbins Podcast in the 29th Annual Webby Awards, hol+ is built on the foundation of Super Woman Wellness, which surpassed 1 million downloads over 8 years.
This is medicine beyond the exam room. Welcome to hol+
[00:00:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: It is something that I found people are struggling with. The strong ones who don't acknowledge [00:00:05] their emotions, who wear that mask of productivity. No one knows they're struggling. And we all have [00:00:10] emotional traumas. We may not have a trauma that the DSM-5 designates as a [00:00:15] trauma, but we all have emotional experiences, painful psychological experiences that shape us and [00:00:20] changes the way that we view ourselves in the world, and the way that we interact in the world.
[00:00:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: Everyone has mental health. We may not [00:00:25] all have a mental health condition, but we all have mental health the way that we have physical health, and we have to nurture it, we [00:00:30] have to take care of it so that we don't develop a mental health condition.
[00:00:32] Dr. Taz: Anxiety and depression and [00:00:35] so many other mental health disorders are on the rise.
[00:00:38] Dr. Taz: We know that we have a crisis when it [00:00:40] comes to mental health in this country, and honestly, across the globe. I felt like it was really [00:00:45] important to dive more deeply into the conversations around mental health, and that's why my [00:00:50] next guest is going to help us with this issue. Let me introduce you to Dr.
[00:00:54] Dr. Taz: Judith [00:00:55] Joseph. She's the author of the highly anticipated book on high-functioning depression. Dr. [00:01:00] Judith is a board-certified psychiatrist and chair of the Women in Medicine initiative for Columbia [00:01:05] University College of Physicians and Surgeons. She's a clinical assistant professor of child and [00:01:10] adolescent psychiatry at NYU Langone Medical Center.
[00:01:13] Dr. Taz: She has conducted several clinical [00:01:15] research studies in pediatric, adult, geriatric, and women's mental health [00:01:20] as the principal investigator in her own research lab. She recently received a [00:01:25] 2023 Congressional Proclamation from the US House of Representatives for her social media [00:01:30] advocacy and research in mental health.
[00:01:32] Dr. Taz: In May of 2024, she lectured at the White [00:01:35] House for the Executive Office of the President of the United States and taught members of the administration a [00:01:40] workshop on how to improve their mental health. She's been an expert on various media [00:01:45] platforms, made a number of national television appearances, and received her [00:01:50] education from Duke University, Columbia University, and then Columbia Business School.
[00:01:54] Dr. Taz: Please join [00:01:55] me in welcoming Dr. Judith Joseph to the show. Welcome, Dr. Judith. I'm so glad to [00:02:00] have you on the show.
[00:02:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:02:03] Dr. Taz: This is a really important [00:02:05] topic at a really critical time. I mean, I think I sort of repeat what everybody [00:02:10] already knows when I say that we have a mental health crisis.
[00:02:12] Dr. Taz: It's affecting every age group, [00:02:15] from our children, to our teens, to our seniors, and everyone in between, and I really [00:02:20] wanted you on the show to help us dive into this topic because I think that we hear a lot [00:02:25] of chatter, but we don't really understand what's going on. So I would love, [00:02:30] uh, to learn more about the work you're doing and how you entered this field of [00:02:35] mental health, anxiety and depression, and, you know, what your perspective [00:02:40] is on what everyone's going through.
[00:02:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, I mean, I entered this field [00:02:45] because honestly, there was a need for this, and this field of [00:02:50] psychiatry rescued me.
[00:02:50] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:02:51] Dr. Judith Joseph: I used to be an anesthesiology resident, and I [00:02:55] remember being in the OR, the operating room, and thinking like, "Is [00:03:00] this really what I'm supposed to do with my life?" And feeling so [00:03:05] empty- Mm
[00:03:05] Dr. Judith Joseph: and experiencing anhedonia, which is something that a lot of people in [00:03:10] medical, uh, cultures know about- Right ... but a lot of people in regular culture have [00:03:15] never heard of it. They're like, "Anhe-what?" Um, but anhedonia is this feeling [00:03:20] of meh, bleh, lack of interest- Not happy,
[00:03:23] Dr. Taz: not excited ...
[00:03:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: not, not excited. Yeah.
[00:03:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: Just [00:03:25] really blunted, and I was having that. And the funny thing is, is that I [00:03:30] knew what it was. I'd heard of it, studied it, and it snuck up on me. I didn't even [00:03:35] realize I was experiencing it.
[00:03:36] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:03:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: And when I realized that I felt so empty, [00:03:40] I was like, "I have to make a change."
[00:03:42] Dr. Taz: And
this
[00:03:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: is
[00:03:42] Dr. Taz: while you're in residency or you're already [00:03:45] out- Residency
[00:03:45] Dr. Taz: working and stuff like that?
[00:03:46] Dr. Judith Joseph: I was in residency. In residency, yeah. So yeah, I was a resident, which is [00:03:50] basically a doctor in training- Right ... in anesthesiology. And it is a very [00:03:55] important field. I have a lot of friends in it, but, you know, if it's not the right fit for you, you can [00:04:00] feel very empty doing something like that.
[00:04:02] Dr. Taz: You know, before we move into [00:04:05] mental health, you've brought something up that's really important. I have been in medicine for [00:04:10] probably over 25 years. I'm dating myself, but one of the things that I've observed [00:04:15] is that anhedonia amongst our colleagues. Mm-hmm. And that can sometimes turn [00:04:20] into despair- Mm ... and it can actually turn into addictive behaviors, destructive behaviors [00:04:25] as time goes on.
[00:04:26] Dr. Taz: And I think the bravery to be mid-path [00:04:30] in a profession where you follow a road, you get things done, you keep going, but the [00:04:35] bravery to be able to stop for a second and switch is something I want you to talk about [00:04:40] for just a second. Because this show is not only, you know, for, [00:04:45] for patients, but it's really for our physician community, too, right?
[00:04:49] Dr. Taz: Because as [00:04:50] we're trying to change medicine, we wanna change it for the doctor, too. Mm-hmm. Because the doctor is just as burnt [00:04:55] out, just as frustrated, just as empty as many of the patients that they're [00:05:00] serving. So talk to us a little bit about what made you feel that way as you were going through your training, [00:05:05] and what really gave
[00:05:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: you the courage to make a switch?
[00:05:09] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, the [00:05:10] healers are not healed.
[00:05:11] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:05:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're just not healed. Love that.
[00:05:13] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:05:14] Dr. Judith Joseph: But the culture of [00:05:15] medicine, and this is not just doctors, it's healthcare providers, healthcare professionals, the culture is [00:05:20] such that if you slow down, if you admit that things aren't okay, you're [00:05:25] shamed. Yeah. You know?
[00:05:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: You're letting the team down. It's almost like the military. It's like the military. [00:05:30]
[00:05:30] Dr. Taz: Right? I just told my daughter that the other day. I'm like, "Going into medi-" She's 16. She was like, "You know, I [00:05:35] like medicine, but I don't know about the journey." I'm like, "Going to medicine is like the military. They break you down, [00:05:40] and if you care about people enough, you can maybe make it through, but it's a really rough [00:05:45] journey."
[00:05:45] Dr. Taz: You know? It
[00:05:45] Dr. Judith Joseph: is. And if you say the wrong thing, if you appear to be [00:05:50] complaining, then you're seen as, "Well, you're not a part of us. You're letting the [00:05:55] team down. Like, I went through it. Shouldn't you go through it?"
[00:05:57] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:05:58] Dr. Judith Joseph: So there is this kind of element of [00:06:00] hazing involved. And also, if you do ask for help, if you're brave enough to [00:06:05] ask for help, sometimes you're told that you have to report your mental [00:06:10] health condition-
[00:06:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:06:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: to a board. So then imagine being a medical student [00:06:15] accruing all this debt- Basically delaying happiness and- Yep ... pushing off youth, [00:06:20] and then being told that when you do break down, you may not be able to work. Right. I mean, that's a person's- [00:06:25] It's on your record. It's on your record. Yeah. It's your worst nightmare because you now, you [00:06:30] know, are from a position of relative scarcity.
[00:06:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:06:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, you have all this loan, all these [00:06:35] debts. So you're kind of pushed between a rock and a hard place. You can't [00:06:40] ask for help even though you know you need it, and a lot of people are struggling. So [00:06:45] I was one of the brave folks You were. I'm so proud of you ... who at the time I was [00:06:50] just like, "I cannot do this anymore."
[00:06:51] Dr. Judith Joseph: And, um, I left that field, and [00:06:55] psychiatry was the residency that I entered. And I entered psychiatry because a [00:07:00] girlfriend of mine was like, "This is great, Judith. You would love this. You did this rotation [00:07:05] when... as a medical student in South Africa, and you were doing these trauma-focused groups with these orphans, and you [00:07:10] came back glowing.
[00:07:10] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like, this is your calling."
[00:07:12] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:07:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: But I'm from a family, a Caribbean [00:07:15] traditional family- Yep ... where the real doctor has the scrubs, is in the operating room, you [00:07:20] know, has the whole getup. So when I told my family, I was like, "I think I'm gonna become a psychiatrist," they were like, "What?" [00:07:25] What? They're like... And my parents are Caribbean, so they were like, "You're gonna go and work with crazy people?
[00:07:29] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:07:30] What's wrong with you?" And I was just like- I love that. ... "They're not crazy." [00:07:35] Um, but entering a Columbia residency, we all had the opportunity [00:07:40] to start our own therapy.
[00:07:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: So I had never been in therapy, and when it was [00:07:45] offered to me, I was just like, "Well, I don't need that." You know? Even I had stigma, [00:07:50] right?
[00:07:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: I was like, "That's for, like, really severely mentally ill people." Right.
[00:07:53] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:07:54] Dr. Judith Joseph: But boy was I [00:07:55] wrong.
[00:07:55] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:07:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: Starting therapy as a resident- Changed my life
[00:07:59] Dr. Taz: [00:08:00] Wow
[00:08:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: I mean, I w- In what ways? I thought I didn't have trauma. I was like, "That's for other people." [00:08:05] I unpacked traumas that I wasn't even aware of, right? Uh, it changed my [00:08:10] life.
[00:08:10] Dr. Judith Joseph: It changed the way that I think about people. It changes the way that I interact with others. [00:08:15] You know, I became aware of my attachment style. Not everyone has a mental health diagnosis. [00:08:20] Not everyone has- Right ... a DSM-5 condition. Yeah. But we all have attachment styles.
[00:08:23] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, we all have [00:08:25] emotional traumas.
[00:08:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: We may not have a trauma that the DSM-5 [00:08:30] designates as a trauma, but we all have emotional experiences, painful psychological experiences that [00:08:35] shape us, and changes the way that we view ourselves in the world, and the way that we interact in the world.
[00:08:39] Dr. Taz: And our [00:08:40] decision-making, right? Absolutely. DSM-5, by the way, guys, is the way that we diagnose different mental health [00:08:45] conditions, different categories, uh, just to clarify that for just a second.
[00:08:49] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm, the Bible
[00:08:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:08:50] of psychiatry.
[00:08:50] Dr. Taz: The Bible of... That's a great way to... And it gets updated periodically. It does, yes. Right? So, you know, [00:08:55] so you're in therapy. Mm-hmm. You're unpacking your own traumas- Mm-hmm ... which you were unaware [00:09:00] of. What is that p- is that talking? Is that... Just for somebody watching, is therapy [00:09:05] always talking?
[00:09:05] Dr. Taz: Is it always talking and going through? How did, how do you get to that point of [00:09:10] walking in not thinking you need it, and then going down a road of like, "Wow, [00:09:15] that's what I'm doing and that's the way I'm behaving"?
[00:09:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, there are different types of therapies, just like there are different [00:09:20] types of treatments in other con- uh, uh, medical fields, right?
[00:09:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:09:25] But the type of therapy that residents, at least in our residency, what we were offered was a psychoanalytic [00:09:30] psychotherapy, which is a very, uh, deep, introspective [00:09:35] type of therapy where you're working closely with the therapist, and you're kind of playing out themes [00:09:40] in life-
[00:09:40] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:09:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: like attachment themes and so forth.
[00:09:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: But there are different types of therapy. Uh, [00:09:45] you know, there's dialectical behavioral therapy that's focused on emotional regulation, uh, [00:09:50] distress tolerance, interpersonal, interpersonal skills. There's cognitive behavioral therapy- Yeah ... which is a behavioral [00:09:55] therapy that's very helpful with, uh, anxiety, depression, sleep.
[00:09:59] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:10:00] Um, you know, there's more like, um, like parent-child type [00:10:05] of therapy. So you have many different types, somatic therapies. But the type that I [00:10:10] was in focused on my, you know, early experiences, my attachment. Mm-hmm. [00:10:15] And my therapist ... And I talked about, I talk about this in my book, High Functioning. My therapist [00:10:20] said, "I think you're masochistic."
[00:10:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: Huh. And I was like, "But wait a second, that was [00:10:25] taken out of the DSM-IV. It was in the DSM-III, the bible of psychiatry, but they removed it [00:10:30] from the four, so how could I be something that's not in there?" And a little secret, us therapists, we use w- [00:10:35] terms sometimes between ourselves, but, you know, technically masochism was removed [00:10:40] because it's something that people thought was victim shaming.
[00:10:43] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right. So a [00:10:45] masochistic individual will put others first, will sometimes bend over backwards even though [00:10:50] they themselves are not, you know, happy. It's actually hurting- Ooh ... themselves. Sound like medicine, [00:10:55] right? Yeah. And medicine- Self-abuse. Right? Yes. We're told
[00:10:58] Dr. Taz: to put the p- the patient
[00:10:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:11:00] first. Right, right. We, we suffer.
[00:11:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, doctors work long hours. [00:11:05] In, in surgeries you're holding your urine- Oh, yeah ... for hours. Yep. You know, you're not [00:11:10] eating. You're putting the patient first, but this is noble. There are a lot of masochistic [00:11:15] people in medicine, but we're not allowed to say that, right? Mm. So
[00:11:18] Dr. Taz: my therapist- Why does masochism have such a negative [00:11:20] connotation then?
[00:11:20] Dr. Taz: I think instantly, like, selfish and all these other words come to [00:11:25] mind when I hear that term.
[00:11:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, because traditionally, you know, medicine has a lot of things, [00:11:30] psychiatry has problems from the past. Right, right. Right? So, um, traditionally [00:11:35] masochistic patients were seen as women who were in abusive relationships- Mm
[00:11:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: who kind [00:11:40] of provoked people to, you know, hit them, right? So there was a connotation with [00:11:45] that. Oh. So like the abusive side. Wow. But there are elements of masochism that still apply, [00:11:50] right? You don't have to use those type of- Right ... inciting violence- Right ... uh, [00:11:55] traits. But what we call masochism today, the acceptable form, is people pleasing.
[00:11:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: Hmm. You know, [00:12:00] how many memes have you seen about people pleasing? A
[00:12:01] Dr. Taz: million. People pleasers are us, you [00:12:05] know? Right. Call now. There's that one that I see all the time,
[00:12:07] Dr. Judith Joseph: but yeah. I mean, and we laugh about it, but women [00:12:10] are still the primary people pleasers. Yes. You know, we, we put our children [00:12:15] first. We have to put on the facade of we're a career mom.
[00:12:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, [00:12:20] we take care of the elderly parents. We're the ones who are dependable. How many business [00:12:25] owners do I know who've been like, "I like to hire women because they show up."
[00:12:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:12:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: But it's really code for they're people [00:12:30] pleasers.
[00:12:30] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:12:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know? They go above and beyond, and they don't [00:12:35] complain. But that has repercussions.
[00:12:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: Women have twice the risk [00:12:40] of depression, twice the risk of anxiety, make up [00:12:45] 80% of those with autoimmune conditions. Think about that. Mm-hmm. It's not all hormones. There's a [00:12:50] cultural and societal element to it. We are literally driving down our [00:12:55] health and our mental health because of people pleasing.
[00:12:57] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:12:58] Dr. Taz: And how... So you discover this [00:13:00] about yourself.
[00:13:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:02] Dr. Taz: What sort of enabled you personally to [00:13:05] be able to then make a change? Was it sort of like, "Wow, this is who I am"? [00:13:10] And what's my next step? Because I'm just thinking about somebody watching or listening [00:13:15] who might be in the same boat. You know? They're like, "I do spend the majority of my time [00:13:20] making sure everybody else is okay," which again, a lot of women are doing over and [00:13:25] over again.
[00:13:25] Dr. Taz: You know, how do they, through... Maybe it's through therapy, but how do they get to that next [00:13:30] step?
[00:13:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, in my own work with my therapist, I wish I could say that [00:13:35] therapy healed me, but the reality is that when you have a pervasive pattern in your personality [00:13:40] style, you, the work takes time. Yeah. You know?
[00:13:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like-
[00:13:43] Dr. Taz: It's not like snap my
[00:13:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: fingers- No ... and it's
[00:13:44] Dr. Taz: okay. [00:13:45]
[00:13:45] Dr. Judith Joseph: It's not. Yeah. And you're gonna go through pattern, uh, like, places in life, [00:13:50] and times in life, and frames in life where you're actually doing good work, right? You're [00:13:55] constantly self-reflecting. You're saying, "I'm not... I'm gonna stop these habits. I'm gonna, you know, really make a change."[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: But then you'll fall back into old patterns, and that's okay. [00:14:05] Personally speaking for myself, I find myself in these patterns, and in my book, I talk about [00:14:10] the things that I use-
[00:14:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:14:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: the tools that I use to keep in check. So, um, you know, I [00:14:15] talk about the five Vs to thriving. Number one is validation.
[00:14:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: I [00:14:20] have to constantly self-validate and make sure that I'm acknowledging my [00:14:25] feelings because people-pleasers and, and people who have masochistic traits, [00:14:30] they will many times push down how they feel. They won't e- take the time to acknowledge how they feel [00:14:35] because they're thinking about everyone else. And it sounds very simple, [00:14:40] but self-acknowledgement and validating your feelings, it really is [00:14:45] difficult when you're not accustomed to doing so.
[00:14:47] Dr. Taz: And this is just a conversation with yourself, right? Mm-hmm. Now, we've seen the [00:14:50] other memes too. Mm-hmm. Like c- can you, can we talk about my feelings right now? You're not validating my feelings. We've [00:14:55] seen that too. But you're starting just with you, the individual, and [00:15:00] recognizing and acknowledging how you feel.
[00:15:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: Absolutely, and in, in my book, I talk about all the different [00:15:05] ways that people get validation, so it could be external. You can get it through your [00:15:10] therapist. I talk about how I use assessments in my, uh, clinical [00:15:15] practice, how sometimes showing someone a score, a trauma score, is validating in [00:15:20] itself. Mm.
[00:15:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: Because many times in mental health, it's not like we can take a blood test and say, [00:15:25] "Oh, look, this is the level of your trauma." Right. We don't have that yet. Right.
[00:15:27] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:15:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: But we do have clinical [00:15:30] assessments, like the CAPS-5- Mm ... which is the gold standard for trauma, and if I show someone a [00:15:35] CAPS-5 that's really high, it's like, wow.
[00:15:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like, I was not acknowledging my [00:15:40] trauma all this time. Had I known I was walking around with a CAPS-5 that high, I would've been kinder to [00:15:45] myself. So there are many different ways to validate. To assess
[00:15:47] Dr. Taz: that.
[00:15:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: Correct.
[00:15:48] Dr. Taz: So let's talk about the [00:15:50] CAPS-5 for just- Mm ... is,
[00:15:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: are there others too in addition to the
[00:15:52] Dr. Taz: CAPS-5?
[00:15:52] Dr. Taz: I think there's another one that I'm blanking [00:15:55] on the name of that I've seen too.
[00:15:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, in, in my clinical practice, um, the ones that I typically use are the [00:16:00] gold standard. So for depression, I use the Madras, the HAM-D. But for my own, uh- [00:16:05] Personal ... research- Yeah ... I've developed my own trauma inventories because many of the [00:16:10] trauma inventories focus on childhood traumas- Right
[00:16:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: which are really important, like the ACEs- Right, the [00:16:15] ACE ... which you're probably familiar with. That's what I was
[00:16:15] Dr. Taz: thinking of, yes,
[00:16:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: the ACE, yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. And there's two versions of the ACE that [00:16:20] is familiar. So there's, like, the one that was the original that the CDC Kaiser Permanente had. Yep. [00:16:25] And then there's the Philadelphia modified one that's based on a more, like, um, I [00:16:30] think comprehensive experience, so it includes more urban environments.
[00:16:34] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:16:35]
[00:16:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: But they're, they mostly focus on childhood events. And the reason they focus [00:16:40] on the childhood trauma is because your brain is thought to fully develop when you're 25. Mm-hmm. But we [00:16:45] know that just because it's mostly developed doesn't mean that it is static. Right. So [00:16:50] it changes. There's neuroplasticity.
[00:16:52] Dr. Judith Joseph: So in my trauma inventory, I included a lot of [00:16:55] adult experiences, such as divorce. Yes. That's traumatizing.
[00:16:58] Dr. Taz: Yes.
[00:16:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh, [00:17:00] bankruptcy.
[00:17:00] Dr. Taz: Bankruptcy.
[00:17:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: Traumatizing. Business
[00:17:01] Dr. Taz: loss.
[00:17:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: I mean- Yeah ... you know, seeing [00:17:05] a loved one in the ICU, traumatizing. But in the classic sense [00:17:10] of, uh, the DSM, the Bible of psychiatry, a, a trauma is [00:17:15] something that's life-threatening or an assault or combat.
[00:17:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: So something like being, you know, in the [00:17:20] hospital for a prolonged COVID-19 wouldn't-
[00:17:22] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:17:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: count. Right. But try, you know... Like, when I have a [00:17:25] patient in front of me telling me that that's tra- traumatizing, and I have to tell them that doesn't meet criteria for the study-
[00:17:29] Dr. Taz: [00:17:30] Right ...
[00:17:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: it's so invalidating. That's- So I go- Yeah
[00:17:32] Dr. Judith Joseph: off the record and I'm like, "For this study, it's not [00:17:35] trauma, but between you and me, it's trauma." It's trauma. "You may not meet criteria for this one, but I believe you." And it, [00:17:40] that for someone is so powerful. You know, that validation is so [00:17:45] powerful. There's something called affect labeling-
[00:17:48] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:17:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: in psychiatry.[00:17:50]
[00:17:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: If you name a feeling, that decreases the [00:17:55] anxiety tremendously. It is therapeutic to name a feeling. I mean, that gives me [00:18:00] goosebumps every time. Yeah. Because many people walk around, they don't know how they feel. They don't know why things aren't [00:18:05] going well for em- for them. And if you can name it, it's not only validating, but it, it is [00:18:10] therapeutic because it decreases the stress of the unknown, and human beings cannot handle [00:18:15] uncertainty.
[00:18:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: It is terrifying. You know, that's why we're like, "Take the Band-Aid off." Right. "Let's just pull it off." We just would [00:18:20] rather know. So naming the feeling is very powerful.
[00:18:23] Dr. Taz: So self-valid- and we could spend an hour on [00:18:25] self-validation, honestly. But I just think it's so important because so many people walk around with, [00:18:30] including us- Mm-hmm
[00:18:30] Dr. Taz: walk around with blinders on, and it took a lot of stumbling and [00:18:35] bumbling around to figure out that that's what was happening, right? Yes. Can somebody on their own... We, by [00:18:40] the way, have mentioned the ACE. We've mentioned the CAPT five. You have your own trauma inventory. I know you have a book [00:18:45] coming out- Yes
[00:18:45] Dr. Taz: right, in April. Does it have the trauma inventory in it? It does, yeah. Because I think that, [00:18:50] would you recommend all of us to be doing assessments like this on [00:18:55] ourselves in some fashion? Maybe we do it every six months or so, or once a year, just to [00:19:00] see where we are.
[00:19:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, I went into this field because [00:19:05] there's a shortage of psychiatrists.
[00:19:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. There's a shortage of therapists. In some parts of the United States, [00:19:10] there's one of me for 30,000 people. Wow. I can barely handle- In a mental health crisis ... 30 people. [00:19:15]
[00:19:15] Dr. Taz: It is so,
[00:19:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: ugh. In the, in the midst of a mental health crisis. Yeah. Imagine that.
[00:19:19] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:19:20]
[00:19:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: And as a researcher, I have my own lab- I find, again, [00:19:25] these quantitative mathematical ways of showing someone this is what you're [00:19:30] experiencing-
[00:19:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:19:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: this is the number of your trauma, and after the treatment, let's see if that number goes down, right? [00:19:35] Or after the treatment, let's see if that number goes up. Maybe we're worsening things.
[00:19:38] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:19:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: I find it so [00:19:40] powerful- It is ... to have a number. And because there's a shortage, no, I'm not encouraging [00:19:45] self-di- diagnoses, but I am encouraging people to learn about their symptoms and to have some type [00:19:50] of metric for understanding how severe they are.
[00:19:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: So that's why I created these scales, to [00:19:55] democratize mental health, because there are just not enough mental health providers out there.
[00:19:59] Dr. Taz: To meet the demand.
[00:19:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:20:00] To meet that demand.
[00:20:00] Dr. Taz: Wow. All right. Let's move from self-validation. You said there were five Vs. Mm-hmm. So [00:20:05] tell me about some of the other ones.
[00:20:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: So the second V is venting.
[00:20:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: Okay, now that you know [00:20:10] how you're feeling, how do we express it? And I love venting because I, I studied, uh, [00:20:15] chemistry a- and, and physics, and so venting, if you think about a balloon that's really [00:20:20] tense with air, but once you start letting that air out, and we do this in our lab, [00:20:25] um, it, the tension goes down.
[00:20:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: So we gotta get it out somehow.
[00:20:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: But not everyone is [00:20:30] verbal, you know? Not everyone likes to talk about things, so I wanted to provide people with skills [00:20:35] and tools that felt comfortable and authentic for them. So I, I talk about some of my [00:20:40] artists that I work with in my practice, their venting is through singing.
[00:20:43] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yes. So I'll [00:20:45] ask them to sing a song or to draw a paint, uh, paint something- Right ... or draw, [00:20:50] um, a sketch to express how they feel. But for others, I mean, I, I [00:20:55] love to talk. So For me, it's talking with my therapist, like that feels [00:21:00] good, or talking with a loved one. My dad's a pastor. For him- Oh, wow ... it's prayer.
[00:21:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: He prays every- Yep ... day. [00:21:05] Yep. Sometimes three times a day. But he feels better after he prays because he's talking to a higher [00:21:10] power that he believes loves and cares about him. So there are different ways to express [00:21:15] how you feel. Um, one of the ways that I started using over the past two and a half years was social [00:21:20] media.
[00:21:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: I was a newbie to social media- Right ... but I started venting over it, and then I grew to almost a million [00:21:25] followers.
[00:21:25] Dr. Taz: Wow. I'm like, "Wow, venting is
[00:21:27] Dr. Judith Joseph: powerful." That's amazing. It really is powerful.
[00:21:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah. So [00:21:30] validation, venting, these are tools that you yourself used personally-
[00:21:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: I use them personally ... in
[00:21:34] Dr. Taz: your [00:21:35] journey-
[00:21:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm
[00:21:35] Dr. Taz: to kinda go into psychiatry. What's that journey like been in psychiatry? [00:21:40]
[00:21:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: So, you know, it, like many fields of medicine, psychiatry is very [00:21:45] conservative. Yeah. But I had to spice it up a bit.
[00:21:48] Dr. Taz: Love it.
[00:21:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: There are the many [00:21:50] Trinidadian psychiatrists- We're all spicing up medicine
[00:21:52] Dr. Taz: over
[00:21:52] Dr. Judith Joseph: here ... that put the curry in there.
[00:21:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah, I love it. [00:21:55] And that's why my lab, the motto of my lab is the science of your happiness. [00:22:00] There is a field called the science of happiness. But to be, to be honest, it [00:22:05] is primarily populated by people who don't look like me.
[00:22:08] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:22:09] Dr. Judith Joseph: So I [00:22:10] wanted to write a book where people could see themselves. I've traveled to over 30 countries learning about [00:22:15] mental health, and the science of your happiness includes [00:22:20] your personal experiences, your culture-
[00:22:22] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:22:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: your beliefs. And so [00:22:25] the third V is values. We all have different values When we [00:22:30] come to a country, we think, "Okay, money is the thing. We gotta get that house, we gotta get the American dream." [00:22:35] But at the end of the day, when we're on our death beds, we're not gonna be like, "I wish I had... I wish I could've [00:22:40] gotten a Porsche," right?
[00:22:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm. You're thinking, "I wish I had done things that I really, you know, [00:22:45] gave me a sense of meaning. I wish I had spent more time with the people that I loved," right? "I [00:22:50] wish I was doing things that gave me purpose." So your values are really [00:22:55] those things, and I, and I say it's the things that are priceless, not the things with a price [00:23:00] tag.
[00:23:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:23:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: So if you can feed into those values even a little bit a day, right? For me, it's [00:23:05] kindness. So if I can buy my, my team lunch, great. I feel good. And it's a [00:23:10] little selfish, right? Right. Right,
[00:23:11] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:23:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: Or if I can hold a door for someone, uh, you know, feeling [00:23:15] connected to others, that's my value. But for someone else, it could be nature.
[00:23:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. So, you know, if you can [00:23:20] take a walk outside, if you could, instead of taking the train, walk through Central Park, if it's safe, you know, [00:23:25] things like that. So really trying to figure out and, you know, real- and give a [00:23:30] platform to things that give you meaning and purpose in life.
[00:23:32] Dr. Taz: So you... So this is a really...
[00:23:34] Dr. Taz: This is [00:23:35] important- Mm-hmm ... and it comes home for me a little bit. You know, you, you're [00:23:40] tying together values and culture. Mm-hmm. Values, and obviously both of us have not had the [00:23:45] traditional... You can look at us and know we've not had- ... the traditional experience, you know, here in [00:23:50] this country. Yes. And when I even think about, you know, my childhood home- Mm
[00:23:53] Dr. Taz: there was a lot of dysfunction, [00:23:55] which was cultural. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of cultural dysfunction. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of trauma [00:24:00] for all three of us as, as sisters in terms of what we experienced and dealt with. You know, [00:24:05] how... When we're dealing with mental health, and it looks different in [00:24:10] different packages and different people, and I'm, like, fascinated by you traveling around the world, so we're gonna have to talk about that too-
[00:24:14] Dr. Taz: in a [00:24:15] minute. You know, how do we help people understand that they [00:24:20] can't look at their anxiety and at their depression in a singular [00:24:25] fashion? Mm-hmm. How do they embrace their culture? How do they embrace sort of the, the [00:24:30] background that they were raised in, you know, to then put a context to their anxiety, [00:24:35] depression, whatever their me- Mm-hmm
[00:24:35] Dr. Taz: the mental health story is?
[00:24:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: And that's why I use the science of your [00:24:40] happiness.
[00:24:40] Dr. Taz: Your happiness.
[00:24:41] Dr. Judith Joseph: Your happiness. When I go on talks, when I travel, [00:24:45] um, I always say, "Mental health is not someone else's, it's yours." Mm. [00:24:50] And that is very powerful. Recently I gave a talk to people who are from the [00:24:55] Caribbean diaspora.
[00:24:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. And I said, "You know, when you're wining," 'cause we move side to side and our hips- I know. ... [00:25:00] and when you're wining, you know what that is? It's bilateral stimulation. It is your left and [00:25:05] right ba- brain communicating- Talking to each other, and you're feeling better. You're [00:25:10] feeling less stress. And bilateral stimulation is something you'll see taught [00:25:15] at Harvard.
[00:25:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. Right? The tapping-
[00:25:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Yeah,
[00:25:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: yeah ... that we- We talk about tapping
[00:25:18] Dr. Taz: all
[00:25:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: the time ... EMDR, you know. [00:25:20] But y- did you realize that you wine inside to side, that was your, your way of [00:25:25] practicing bilateral, uh, stimulation? And they're just like, "Oh, wow." And I'm like, [00:25:30] "Yeah, it's healing. That's why you feel so good when you wine."
[00:25:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: Oh,
[00:25:33] Dr. Taz: I love
[00:25:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: that. And [00:25:35] I say to them, "You know, like, the curries that you eat, that pepper, the pepper [00:25:40] sauce, that's anti-inflammatory. So you didn't even realize that you were eating food- You're healing
[00:25:43] Dr. Taz: yourself ...
[00:25:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: that, yeah, [00:25:45] that makes your brain feel better, that makes your joints feel better." And when I... In my book, I talk about all the [00:25:50] different cultures.
[00:25:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: I've been to Israel, I've been to the Middle East, I've traveled to Asia. Wow. [00:25:55] There's elements in your culture that you did not realize was mental health. You just [00:26:00] called it something different. So don't, don't be deterred by it. Don't say, "Oh, it's not me. Like, I don't have those problems."
[00:26:04] Dr. Taz: [00:26:05] Yeah.
[00:26:05] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mental health is yours.
[00:26:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: You just forgot about it. And I think when people can take that [00:26:10] ownership- Right ... and they reclaim it, it feels authentic. They wanna nurture it. They... [00:26:15] Everyone has mental health. We may not all have a mental health condition, but we all have mental health [00:26:20] the way that we have physical health. Yeah. But... And we have to nurture it, we have to take care of it so that we don't develop [00:26:25] a mental health condition.
[00:26:26] Dr. Taz: Do you think that we can't complete [00:26:30] our individual mental health stories until we accept the cultures from which we [00:26:35] came?
[00:26:36] Dr. Judith Joseph: I think it's very difficult to reconcile, you [00:26:40] know, if your past, right? It diff- it's difficult to reconcile your problems in the [00:26:45] present if you're not acknowledging your past. Um, and I do think that [00:26:50] it just allows us to take more ownership when we think about the way [00:26:55] that our past culture, our g- cultural groups impacts our present [00:27:00] thinking.
[00:27:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:27:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: Many of us wanna run from it. Yes. We wanna assimilate. That's where I was going with this. We wanna be like everyone
[00:27:03] Dr. Taz: else. Yeah, that's [00:27:05] exactly where I was going with this. I think that the story for many of us that are, I guess, what, what are we, [00:27:10] first generation- Mm-hmm ... second gener- whatever we are, you know, is the initial story.
[00:27:13] Dr. Taz: And actually, I look at my daughter too, [00:27:15] I think the story is we wanna assimilate.
[00:27:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah.
[00:27:17] Dr. Taz: We don't, we don't wanna accept that we were [00:27:20] A, B, C, or D, right? And in that running from, I think we run from [00:27:25] ourselves, and at some level, I think we create more anxiety and more angst almost, you know? Yeah. So [00:27:30] that's, that's why I asked that question.
[00:27:31] Dr. Taz: I don't know what you've observed and seen in your travels, like, [00:27:35] when you're going to all these different countries, whether it's Israel, I don't know if you've been to other areas of the Middle East- Mm-hmm ... yet or [00:27:40] not, I'm so curious to, to know what you saw there. You know, what are you seeing in [00:27:45] terms of how those communities heal themselves, and then how individually, many of these communities [00:27:50] around the world are, are family-centric.
[00:27:52] Dr. Taz: It's not about the individual. Mm-hmm. So how does the [00:27:55] individual survive in those constructs, in a mental health construct? Because [00:28:00] my, you know, again, limited observation has been that in a lot of these [00:28:05] units, it's ignored.
[00:28:07] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:08] Dr. Taz: You know, or dismissed.
[00:28:09] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, [00:28:10] a lot of the cultures that I've, uh, y- interacted with will say that, "Well, [00:28:15] it's not about the individual- Right
[00:28:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: it's about the family."
[00:28:17] Dr. Taz: Right. Yeah. "
[00:28:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: And so don't shame us," [00:28:20] right? And, "How dare you be selfish and try to create boundaries?"
[00:28:23] Dr. Taz: Right. That.
[00:28:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: That doesn't [00:28:25] exist. Exactly. A boundary. You know, it's, it's really difficult when you're trying to [00:28:30] have one step in one culture, and then trying- Yes ... to assimilate. And so [00:28:35] it is more challenging when you're in a different country.
[00:28:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: But what I've noticed when I've traveled [00:28:40] is that people tend to find ways to separate [00:28:45] themselves from others as well. So, like, I was in China-
[00:28:47] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:28:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: and the main cultural [00:28:50] group was separating themselves from subcultures. Mm. So they're, even within a larger country- A [00:28:55] dominant
[00:28:55] Dr. Taz: culture,
[00:28:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: yeah ... yeah, there are, there are still separations.
[00:28:57] Dr. Judith Joseph: But- What I do find is that if you [00:29:00] can bring it back to the goal, right? What is the goal for everyone? We are [00:29:05] in the same boat. You know, even if, let's say, a parent doesn't agree with a [00:29:10] child- Mm-hmm ... you know, a younger generation, just think about what the real goal is. The goal is for you [00:29:15] all to be happy, to be together, to be, um, to experience abundance.
[00:29:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: So [00:29:20] you're really not fighting against each other. You may have differing ideas, different [00:29:25] perspectives, but you still have the same goal. And I find that very simple [00:29:30] message, that simple theme tends to unify people.
[00:29:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: But often [00:29:35] I, I see this recurring theme, no matter where I travel, that people within certain cultures forget that [00:29:40] they have the same goal.
[00:29:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. That happens all the time, and that creates conflict.
[00:29:43] Dr. Judith Joseph: It does. It creates [00:29:45] conflict. So one person may like agree that mental health is important. We should take care of it. We should see [00:29:50] a therapist. And the other person's like, "No, that's not part of our culture." But when you bring it back to [00:29:55] the goal, like you all wanna be healthy, you wanna be together, you wanna be unified, you [00:30:00] really want the same things.
[00:30:01] Dr. Judith Joseph: You're just looking at it differently.
[00:30:03] Dr. Taz: I love approaching the family unit [00:30:05] that way. Mm-hmm. Like we all are on the same mission. We have the same purpose. So [00:30:10] values, venting, validation- And [00:30:15] vitals ... vitals. We know that word. What does it mean for you?
[00:30:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: So of course, it's like the, the [00:30:20] typical boring doctor-y stuff.
[00:30:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right ... like eat well. Pulse, heart rate, blood pressure. Yeah, that's so sad. Eat well, but [00:30:25] really eat foods that nurture your brain. There's a whole f- like field of nutritional [00:30:30] psychiatry now that shows that certain brain foods can be so powerful, and in some [00:30:35] studies can be very effective, even as effective as, as certain [00:30:40] medications.
[00:30:40] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:30:41] Dr. Judith Joseph: So leafy greens, omega-3 fatty acids, all are [00:30:45] brain healthy, you know, you know these things. Eating things that are not processed, because that increases [00:30:50] inflammation. Um, and then getting movement in. So you know, [00:30:55] not necessarily going to a gym, but like getting some dancing in every day. Mm-hmm. Walking, [00:31:00] steps instead of elevators.
[00:31:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: And then, um, looking at things like sleep. [00:31:05] So sleep is restorative. We all need sleep. Um, making sure that you practice good sleep [00:31:10] hygiene, that you have good boundaries in the bedroom with regards to not taking work into the bedroom, [00:31:15] work-life balance. Yes. You know? Um, and then your relationship with technology.
[00:31:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: This is something [00:31:20] that- That's a big one ... a lot of doctors aren't asking about, but I think it's going to be a big deal. I think that the [00:31:25] Bible of psychiatry, the DSM, will eventually include a whole r- set of disorders related [00:31:30] to tech because technology impacts us, and it's relatively new in terms of human history, [00:31:35] right?
[00:31:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh, and then relationships. Your doctors don't necessarily ask about your relationships. No. [00:31:40] But in longevity science, we know that the quality of relationships, that's the primary factor [00:31:45] in terms of your outcome, in terms of your longevity.
[00:31:47] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:31:47] Dr. Judith Joseph: So if you have negative, toxic [00:31:50] relationships, then that's draining your life source.
[00:31:52] Dr. Judith Joseph: If you have positive relationships, that can actually [00:31:55] extend your life. So all of these things are vitals. I call it my [00:32:00] new vitals. I
[00:32:00] Dr. Taz: like it. I like it. So relationships, so these are
[00:32:04] Dr. Judith Joseph: personal [00:32:05] relationships.
[00:32:05] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. What about career or professional relationships?
[00:32:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: The same. Equal
[00:32:09] Dr. Taz: [00:32:10] value?
[00:32:10] Dr. Judith Joseph: Perhaps not equal, but very important.
[00:32:12] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:32:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, think about where you spend the most [00:32:15] time.
[00:32:15] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:32:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: If you're spending more time with your boss, then maybe that is, [00:32:20] maybe that is the most important relationship in your life. Yeah. Because if that relationship is toxic, that's [00:32:25] draining your life source.
[00:32:26] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:32:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: I teach my patients, and then in my book I, I teach people how to [00:32:30] write a bio-psychosocial model.
[00:32:32] Dr. Judith Joseph: And if you, if you're social, um, so [00:32:35] bio is, is your biology, like your genetics, your chronic conditions, the medications you take. [00:32:40] Psych- the psychology bucket is, you know, your past trauma, your resiliency [00:32:45] factors, your IQ, your attachment style.
[00:32:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:32:46] Dr. Judith Joseph: Your past psych history. Social is [00:32:50] basically everything in the environment, so what you eat, how you move and so forth, but also your relationships.
[00:32:54] Dr. Judith Joseph: So if you're spending the [00:32:55] majority of your time with a boss that's toxic, that belittles you, that [00:33:00] praises you, that you don't know what's gonna happen- Yeah ... that, that's dysregulating your physiology. That's [00:33:05] wearing on your heart. That's breaking down your longevity. So if that's the person you spend the most [00:33:10] time with and they're not healthy for you, you gotta reconsider that.
[00:33:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: I could tell you to eat as much kale as you [00:33:15] want- And
[00:33:15] Dr. Taz: it's not gonna make up
[00:33:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: for that ... but if that person- Yeah ... is toxic and draining your life source, that's the real problem, right? [00:33:20] So I include that in the vi- vitals because unfortunately, in modern [00:33:25] medicine, we only have like 15 minutes to talk to patients sometimes as a, as healthcare providers, so.[00:33:30]
[00:33:30] Dr. Taz: How do you feel about that? I don't feel like we can do this medicine in 15 minutes.
[00:33:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: I, I [00:33:35] absolutely cannot do that. Yeah. So I mean, most psychiatrists don't have that model, but- [00:33:40] Right ... I think a lot of, uh, general practitioners- They do ... do. Right, yeah. And they're, they're in a bunch. They're, [00:33:45] they're really stuck between a rock and a hard place- Burned out
[00:33:47] Dr. Judith Joseph: that we talked about. Yeah. They're burnt out and they wanna do better.
[00:33:49] Dr. Taz: [00:33:50] Yeah.
[00:33:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: But they really have so many constraints. That's why it's important to democratize this information so people [00:33:55] know what to look for so they can edify their own lives, you know, because 15 minutes is [00:34:00] just not enough. But doctors aren't asking about that.
[00:34:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're not saying, "Okay, are you taking [00:34:05] your blood pressure medicine and is your boyfriend toxic?" No, that's [00:34:10] right. They're not doing that. They have to prioritize. Dr. Boyfriend, he's on a prescription,
[00:34:11] Dr. Taz: right here. Go home and show it to him.
[00:34:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: It's the rule of twos, right? [00:34:15] Right. Medicine doctors know that. Right.
[00:34:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: They only have chance, they only have a time for 15 minutes to prioritize one or two [00:34:20] things. Right. Everything else, you're on your
[00:34:21] Dr. Taz: own, right? Definitely. So relationships obviously [00:34:25] are impacting your overall mental health. Where does that fit into the five Vs? Is [00:34:30] it a part of the vitals? That's part of the vitals, yeah.
[00:34:30] Dr. Taz: Part of the vitals, okay. Mm-hmm. And so there's one more V-
[00:34:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yes ... that
[00:34:33] Dr. Taz: I think I missed. Vision. [00:34:35] Vision.
[00:34:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. People who are high functioning tend to be onto the next. [00:34:40] They finish one goal, and they're onto the next, but they very rarely plan joy. Mm. [00:34:45] They don't schedule it. Mm. They don't celebrate their wins, and that is a problem.
[00:34:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:34:50] And it doesn't have to be a big win. You know? It doesn't have to be like, oh, I got a promotion or I [00:34:55] got this award. A win, a small win is getting your kid to school on time. You know? [00:35:00] When I get my daughter to school on time, I'm like-
[00:35:02] Dr. Taz: Yes ...
[00:35:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: I'm gonna sit and drink this coffee. And [00:35:05] that's my little celebration.
[00:35:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right. I'm like giving myself praise that I did it. You know, it sounds like [00:35:10] trite, but it's not. You know? Like celebrate your small wins. If you called a [00:35:15] friend who was down and you made time for that friend, that's a win. Celebrate it, you [00:35:20] know? And the big wins are important as well. Right. Right. I have so many- [00:35:25] students that I've treated along the years who skipped graduation ceremonies, who skipped certificates Oh.
[00:35:28] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh-huh I'm like, "Cele- [00:35:30] you worked hard for that. Go to that ceremony," you know? If people name you as [00:35:35] employee of the week, celebrate it. Talk about it. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. If you were able [00:35:40] to set boundaries with your mother-in-law, that is a huge win. Right.
[00:35:44] Dr. Taz: Celebrate that one. [00:35:45] Absolutely celebrate that one.
[00:35:47] Dr. Taz: Well, here you are now entering the field of psychiatry. You've [00:35:50] switched from anesthesia. Mm-hmm. You know, what do you have to say about psychiatry [00:35:55] as it's practiced today? I know you're innovating. You've come up with the five V's. You have your [00:36:00] own trauma inventory. You're innovating the field, and we need innovators like you.[00:36:05]
[00:36:05] Dr. Taz: But what's happening within the field of psychiatry? Because I know from a patient perspective, and [00:36:10] even maybe a little bit from a colleague perspective, there's a lot of frustration- Mm-hmm ... and a lot of trepidation with [00:36:15] going to a psychiatrist today, because medication and [00:36:20] pharmaceutical management seem to be the only tools offered.
[00:36:23] Dr. Taz: Talk to us a little bit about that. [00:36:25]
[00:36:25] Dr. Judith Joseph: So I'm in this New York City bubble, where I don't know very many psychiatrists who just do [00:36:30] medication. Right. It's mostly therapists. But I, I would imagine that the majority of the country's not like that. [00:36:35] Right. People, again, there's a shortage. Right. So a lot of psychiatrists are, are not able to do that.
[00:36:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:36:40] They're asking their patients to be in a therapy with a therapist who could be a [00:36:45] psychologist or a, a licensed social worker- Mm-hmm ... 'cause that's the majority of the therapists now, [00:36:50] um, just because it's just a shorter amount of training and more accessible- [00:36:55] Right ... to become that. Right. Less, and less student loans and so forth.
[00:36:58] Dr. Judith Joseph: But- [00:37:00] But in, in, with the psychiatrists that I know, um, they're very holistic. [00:37:05] So they are learning about things like menopause- Mm ... and hormones- Amazing ... [00:37:10] and diets, you know, and nutritional psychiatry and movement and [00:37:15] lifestyle. And yes, it's not possible to find a psychiatrist like that [00:37:20] the majority of the time, but you can have a comprehensive treatment plan with a [00:37:25] therapist and a psychiatrist.
[00:37:26] Dr. Taz: Building a team.
[00:37:27] Dr. Judith Joseph: Building a team, yes. And- That's
[00:37:29] Dr. Taz: collaborative, hopefully ... and a,
[00:37:29] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:37:30] and a general practitioner too, 'cause- Yeah ... because you do need labs done every now and then if you're on certain [00:37:35] medications.
[00:37:35] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:37:35] Dr. Judith Joseph: So you are also a part of the treatment team. Don't think that I have, like, one, two, [00:37:40] three specialists, and that's it.
[00:37:42] Dr. Judith Joseph: You're the glue that holds that team [00:37:45] together. So be active. Be an active participant in that team. Take, you know, notes [00:37:50] about how you're feeling. I, I, I ask my patients to log, you know, basically what they eat [00:37:55] during the day- Mm ... how much caffeine they're consuming, who they're interacting with. And take [00:38:00] these quizzes, right?
[00:38:00] Dr. Judith Joseph: So that you can see, oh, on this day, you know, my depression [00:38:05] score was higher, meaning higher- Right ... as in not- Right ... a good thing.
[00:38:07] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:38:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: What, what happened that day? Did I [00:38:10] get sleep the night before? Did I have too much caffeine? Did I interact with a toxic individual? You know, so [00:38:15] really become your own historian.
[00:38:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Be the best historian. Be the best part of the [00:38:20] treatment team that you can be, because you are really the glue that holds it together.
[00:38:24] Dr. Taz: I [00:38:25] love that. Do you think in, within the field of psychiatry, there's more research being done on some of [00:38:30] the effects of food in mental health, technology [00:38:35] in mental health, you know, relationships and men- hormones and mental health?
[00:38:39] Dr. Taz: What, [00:38:40] what does the research world look like? 'Cause I know you're, you've got your hand on that, so tell me a little bit
[00:38:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: about what you're
[00:38:44] Dr. Taz: [00:38:45] seeing.
[00:38:45] Dr. Judith Joseph: There is a lot more research. There's a whole burgeoning field of nutritional [00:38:50] psychiatry. I- it's changed my life. I, when I started learning about the foods [00:38:55] that you can eat to beat- Mm
[00:38:56] Dr. Judith Joseph: depression, to beat inflammation, I changed my whole diet. Mm. [00:39:00] Like, I, it was radical. I'm high-functioning AF, so of course I did it all at once. [00:39:05] But I really, I cut out, you know, sugary foods. I used to love the sugar in [00:39:10] my coffee. Now, I wouldn't- No, no ... even think about it. Um, I, I mean, my guilty pleasure, [00:39:15] which is kinda gross, is, like, red candies.
[00:39:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm. You know, like, but the red dye's so bad.
[00:39:19] Dr. Taz: Oh, what did I [00:39:20] used to like? I used to like cherry sours. Do you remember those? Oh, yeah.
[00:39:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: I
[00:39:22] Dr. Taz: was addicted to cherry [00:39:25] sours. Obviously not anymore, but
[00:39:26] Dr. Judith Joseph: yeah. There are a lot of TikToks on sour candy- Yeah ... that's helping you with, like, [00:39:30] mindfulness and so forth, but mine was red Skittles.
[00:39:32] Dr. Judith Joseph: Oh. I love
[00:39:32] Dr. Taz: red Skittles.
[00:39:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: Red and purple.
[00:39:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:39:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: But, um- [00:39:35] I cut out a lot of processed food. If I can't pronounce it, I will not eat it. Mm. [00:39:40] Um, which is really difficult to do, so do it slowly. But I found that eating [00:39:45] better made me think clearer. I was less irritable. I got better sleep. I just [00:39:50] felt better. So it was just, like, a no-brainer for me.
[00:39:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: But I understand that not everyone has [00:39:55] that- Right ... you know, in them.
[00:39:56] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:39:56] Dr. Judith Joseph: Um, start small. You know? Like, say, [00:40:00] "I'm going to get more protein. I'm going to get more fiber." Pick one meal or one snack [00:40:05] of the day to do right.
[00:40:06] Dr. Taz: Do you think it's more important, and I get asked this in the exam room, that's why I'm [00:40:10] asking you.
[00:40:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Do you think it's more important to prioritize clean food, [00:40:15] less processed food, dye-free foods, or focus more [00:40:20] on protein, fiber, that type of thing? Like- It
[00:40:24] Dr. Judith Joseph: depends. If [00:40:25] you're a woman in mid-life, protein and fiber, like, all the way. [00:40:30] But for my patients with depression, anxiety, I'm like, "No processed f- like, try to limit the processed food."
[00:40:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:40:35] Yeah. Do clean foods, you know? Um, sometimes it's cheaper to eat foods that [00:40:40] don't have all of the, you know, processed stuff in it. Yeah. Um, but it [00:40:45] depends. But I really, for, for m- the woman in mid-life that I work with, I try to-
[00:40:49] Dr. Taz: Protein ...
[00:40:49] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:40:50] protein and
[00:40:50] Dr. Taz: fiber. Protein and fiber. Yep.
[00:40:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Get, get your fiber in there.
[00:40:52] Dr. Taz: And then, well, now that we're t- we're... Let [00:40:55] me back up. Now that we're thinking about different segments of the [00:41:00] population, I really wanna dial into a couple of different things. What's happening with our children? Mm. [00:41:05] Why are we seeing an escalation of mental health issues among children? And then [00:41:10] when we look at teens, it's rampant.
[00:41:12] Dr. Taz: Tell me what's going on there.
[00:41:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: So, you [00:41:15] know, it's no surprise that 2020 was traumatizing. Mm-hmm. And a lot of our [00:41:20] kids have not recovered from that. They're experiencing delays in math. They [00:41:25] are experiencing social anxiety. You know, that whole removal [00:41:30] from society for a while-
[00:41:31] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:41:31] Dr. Judith Joseph: set them back, and we have to validate that.
[00:41:34] Dr. Judith Joseph: Let's [00:41:35] not just say, "Oh, like, get over it."
[00:41:36] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:41:36] Dr. Judith Joseph: It happened to them.
[00:41:37] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:41:38] Dr. Judith Joseph: And they were vulnerable during [00:41:40] that, that time. Also, the way that they interact now is on screens, and we're [00:41:45] learning about how devices impact the developing brain, that it's not [00:41:50] positive.
[00:41:50] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:41:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, like, yes, there are positive of social media.
[00:41:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: Aspects, right. You can connect [00:41:55] more. You find people that look like you. You can use it to learn. However, this [00:42:00] constant exposure, you know, that's unregulated. When you have parents who [00:42:05] are working, like, 9:00 to 7:00 jobs- Yeah ... that's a reality these days. Yeah. That the iPad [00:42:10] that, you know, the phone- Becomes the babysitter
[00:42:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: that's the babysitter.
[00:42:12] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:42:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: We have to acknowledge that. So- [00:42:15] Is there a quick fix? No, but many people, if they do this as a [00:42:20] community, if they say to, to each other like, "We're gonna try our best to not have our kids on these [00:42:25] phones, that we wait until they're 13," you know, it's called Wait Until 8th- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
[00:42:29] Dr. Judith Joseph: as an organization. [00:42:30] That maybe that's a fix, but that's very difficult to do. It's very difficult to do if you don't have [00:42:35] the resources, if you don't have support, right? Who's gonna watch the kids? Who's gonna entertain them?
[00:42:39] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:42:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: [00:42:40] Um, but yes, social media has impacted their brains. Being on screens all day [00:42:45] has impacted their brains.
[00:42:46] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're not connecting with each other. They're feeling lonelier more than ever. [00:42:50] They have these delays in education. I think this is the, the recipe for disaster, and not to [00:42:55] mention corporate greed.
[00:42:56] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:42:56] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, like, parents are working hard and not, they're not making much. So you're [00:43:00] not having your attachment figures present.
[00:43:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're stressed.
[00:43:03] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:43:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: So it's [00:43:05] impacting the most vulnerable, which are, which are
[00:43:06] Dr. Taz: the kids. What's the antidote? How do we turn this around? [00:43:10] Are there things that we can do within the home or within our schools that might start to make [00:43:15] an impact on this?
[00:43:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: Most child psychiatrists will tell you it has to be done in the schools because by the- In [00:43:20] the
[00:43:20] Dr. Taz: schools
[00:43:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: by the time you- Okay ... wait for home, it's too late. Like, the k- the parents are tired. [00:43:25] Yeah. You know, they don't have time for that. And also, who has access to a therapist after school? Right. So a [00:43:30] lot of the interventions are in the schools. So what a- what some of the schools are doing is [00:43:35] that they're teaching mental health education.
[00:43:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: This wasn't a thing when I was growing up. Right, same. We learned sex ed.
[00:43:39] Dr. Taz: [00:43:40] Yeah.
[00:43:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: But now schools are bringing in mental health education. So this is, you know, how do you know the [00:43:45] signs that you're having depression? How do you know the signs that you're suicidal? How do you know signs of anxiety? They're [00:43:50] even talking about neurodivergence, so kids are learning about ADHD.
[00:43:53] Dr. Judith Joseph: And then they're taking it a step further [00:43:55] and they're teaching children distress tolerance and skills in schools, and [00:44:00] meditation and mindfulness. And some schools are, like, just rock stars, and they're teaching- Yeah ... [00:44:05] children about toxic relationships. I'm like, "This is great." Amazing. I wish I had,
[00:44:08] Dr. Taz: wish I had learned [00:44:10]
[00:44:12] Dr. Taz: that.
[00:44:12] Dr. Taz: Same.
[00:44:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: But anyhow- They get
[00:44:12] Dr. Taz: to learn
[00:44:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: about love ... saved me about a
[00:44:12] Dr. Taz: decade.
[00:44:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yeah. But anyhow. Why are we [00:44:15] waiting until, like- Right ... you're, like, already married to be in- Right ... couples counseling? You should be learning about love [00:44:20] early on before you start- Such a good point ... falling into these patterns. So-
[00:44:23] Dr. Taz: Such a good point
[00:44:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: I, I really do believe it [00:44:25] belongs in the schools, not for the teachers, because the educators are already burdened.
[00:44:29] Dr. Taz: [00:44:30] Right.
[00:44:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: And, like, it's not fair to have them now teach about something that they're not even skilled in, right? [00:44:35] Um, so I do think that schools that are doing it well have a separate department [00:44:40] focused on emotional wellbeing, mental health education, and skills training.
[00:44:44] Dr. Judith Joseph: And when [00:44:45] children are learning this, they're able to grow in ways that are more adaptive. They're [00:44:50] able to cope in ways that are more adaptive. They're not turning to substances to cope. Right. They're not turning to their [00:44:55] phones. And schools that are removing phones from the classroom, [00:45:00] from the school campus, they're seeing improved mental health.
[00:45:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: They're seeing improved education. Our [00:45:05] schools are doing that, both of our-
[00:45:06] Dr. Taz: That's
[00:45:06] Dr. Judith Joseph: great ...
[00:45:06] Dr. Taz: for both my children, my teenagers. You mentioned something that I, [00:45:10] I don't wanna leave on the table, the attachment style of the parent-
[00:45:13] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm ...
[00:45:14] Dr. Taz: when [00:45:15] they come home from work. You know, or even maybe they're not working, they're working in the home.
[00:45:19] Dr. Taz: You [00:45:20] know, talk, talk a little bit about that and mental health for the family unit.
[00:45:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right.
[00:45:24] Dr. Taz: Uh, [00:45:25] talk, talk to us about that for a second.
[00:45:27] Dr. Judith Joseph: If a parent is not healthy, [00:45:30] chances are the children won't be. I mean, it is no secret in mental health, when we [00:45:35] treat families, excuse me, when we treat families, we focus on the [00:45:40] parents, too.
[00:45:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: Because if a parent is coping better, if a parent is not depressed, if a [00:45:45] parent is not stressed, it, it, the children see that. Children look to their attachment [00:45:50] figures-
[00:45:50] Dr. Taz: Mm ...
[00:45:50] Dr. Judith Joseph: for guidance. So if you're looking at an attachment figure who's, A, not present, [00:45:55] that's neglect, or if you're looking at a attachment figure that's emotionally dysregulated, [00:46:00] you're learning those coping skills there.
[00:46:02] Dr. Judith Joseph: So we really want the parents to learn as [00:46:05] well, at least in when you're in a therapy, uh, setting.
[00:46:07] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:46:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: Uh, so it's, the treatment is not [00:46:10] just the child. A lot of the work is done with the parent. And the hope is [00:46:15] that in schools when you're teaching children emotional regulation and distress tolerance, that some of that [00:46:20] education is going back to the home as well.
[00:46:22] Dr. Judith Joseph: Usually, the parents know what's happening, hopefully [00:46:25] they know what's happening, um, and that they get some type of curriculum. But [00:46:30] we really wanna focus on parental health. We don't wanna burden parents with having to now take care of [00:46:35] the child's mental health.
[00:46:36] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Is there something we as parents or can [00:46:40] do within our homes to foster mental health?
[00:46:44] Dr. Taz: Is it spending [00:46:45] time? Is... You'd mentioned being present. I think, you know, I kinda can look at the [00:46:50] mirror and look at myself and be like, "Am I really doing a good job at that, as busy as I am?" [00:46:55] You know, are there certain rituals, practices that we can develop, you know, within [00:47:00] the structure of our family units, you know, to establish that?
[00:47:03] Dr. Taz: And then one more follow-up question to [00:47:05] that. Is there a tool families can use to screen the health of a family, [00:47:10] not just the individual, but the health of a family?
[00:47:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, with- uh, within my home, uh, we [00:47:15] practice the five Es.
[00:47:16] Dr. Taz: I love the five Es. We validate.
[00:47:17] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm-hmm. We ta- we acknowledge how we feel. [00:47:20] My daughter's very good at that.
[00:47:21] Dr. Judith Joseph: If I'm, like, trying to be Miss Busy Body, high-functioning, she'll be like, [00:47:25] "Mom, slow down." "You're tired." I'm like, "I'm tired, too." "Maybe we should [00:47:30] not, we shouldn't do that activity." Yeah. And I'm like, "Why was I doing that?"
[00:47:32] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:47:33] Dr. Judith Joseph: So, you know, that's the, the unit [00:47:35] checking me, right?
[00:47:35] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:47:36] Dr. Judith Joseph: Um, we vent, we talk about our feelings.
[00:47:39] Dr. Judith Joseph: Values. [00:47:40] We, we really pour our energy and our time and our resources into things that we value. [00:47:45] Family, we, we value family. Mm. Mm-hmm. So my daughter will spend a lot of time with her cousins [00:47:50] because, uh, she values it, I value it. Um, [00:47:55] vitals, you know, getting good sleep- Healthy ... being, falling asleep at the right time, waking up at the same time.
[00:47:59] Dr. Judith Joseph: My [00:48:00] daughter, sh- great diet. Like, she eats a lot of veggies. I'm lucky I have one of those kids that doesn't [00:48:05] like meat. Might be an anomaly. She is an anomaly. Yeah. But, uh, [00:48:10] we get good movement in. Like, if I'm doing my exercises, she's doing them with me.
[00:48:13] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:48:14] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, we practice- You're
[00:48:14] Dr. Taz: [00:48:15] modeling it ...
[00:48:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: modeling it.
[00:48:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:48:16] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right? Um, she's not allowed to have an iPad. You [00:48:20] know, she doesn't have s- the only screen she gets is, like, television. She gets a set time. So I'm really trying to do these [00:48:25] things for her, and she'll tell me, "Mom, you've been on your phone." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, gotta put it away," right? She keeps [00:48:30] me in check.
[00:48:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:48:31] Dr. Judith Joseph: So in vision, we plan joy. We have a calendar on [00:48:35] our, uh, refrigerator with the big things that we wanna celebrate and the little things that we [00:48:40] celebrate, right? So I think the five Vs, every family can do it. They're free. I wanna [00:48:45] democratize mental health. And you don't have to do all them at once.
[00:48:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: You pick one or two. Yeah. The rule of [00:48:50] two is right. One or two that you think you really need to focus on. So if it's values, if, if you feel like your kids are [00:48:55] just, like, over, like, valuing materialistic things, then [00:49:00] let's figure out how to bring them back to what our family culture values. If it's [00:49:05] volunteering, maybe we'll do something like that once a month, right?
[00:49:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: Or if you feel like the [00:49:10] vitals isn't s- a place where you're strong, then maybe setting better boundaries around your, your taking care [00:49:15] of your body and
[00:49:15] Dr. Taz: brain. So picking, like, a category- Mm-hmm ... and just spending s- parking there and spending some time on that as a family [00:49:20] unit-
[00:49:20] Dr. Judith Joseph: Yes ...
[00:49:20] Dr. Taz: can probably reset the cadence for everybody there.
[00:49:23] Dr. Judith Joseph: Absolutely. If communication [00:49:25] is not great in the home- Right ... then maybe focusing on venting and saying- Yeah ... "At least one day a week, [00:49:30] we're gonna, we're gonna have a dinner together, um, and talk about, you know, what we're experiencing, [00:49:35] validating how we're feeling, and venting it," right? That could be the thing.
[00:49:38] Dr. Judith Joseph: And people don't know this, but [00:49:40] the number one predictor of whether or not young girls don't, you know, commit suicide [00:49:45] is having, like, family dinners.
[00:49:47] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:49:47] Dr. Judith Joseph: Family dinners and team sports. Why? [00:49:50] There's open communication, right? There's validation happening in team sports. Same thing with [00:49:55] family dinners. Right.
[00:49:55] Dr. Judith Joseph: There's open communication and validation. If families knew that, they would do that [00:50:00] more. You don't have to go out and spend a lot on a fancy- Right ... therapist.
[00:50:03] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:50:03] Dr. Judith Joseph: Some cases you do, [00:50:05] but, you know, for the majority, just sitting and talking sometimes, talking about how you feel [00:50:10] openly and honestly and validating each other, it's so powerful.
[00:50:14] Dr. Judith Joseph: But if we are [00:50:15] on our screens, and if we're not making time, right, if the system is oppressing and [00:50:20] not allowing us to spend time with each other, we're not gonna be
[00:50:24] Dr. Taz: able to do it. Then we can't do that. Yeah. Oh my gosh, there's so [00:50:25] much more we could get into. It- there's- this is such an important topic, and I know we're pushing up [00:50:30] against time here.
[00:50:31] Dr. Taz: I do want everyone to get a sense, and I actually wanna know, too, [00:50:35] tell us a little bit about your lab, the research you're doing. Tell us a little bit about what [00:50:40] people can find in this book that's coming out, on my birthday, by the way, guys. I love that. So, [00:50:45] uh, just, just connect us with kind of what's happening in your world.
[00:50:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: Well, my lab is studying [00:50:50] high-functioning depression, and it's not a term that's recognized by the bible of psychiatry, [00:50:55] DSM, but it is something that I found people are struggling with. The [00:51:00] strong ones. The mom who's taking care of everyone but herself. The successful ones, right? The successful ones. [00:51:05] Yep. The teacher who's taking care of her students and not eating lunch.
[00:51:08] Dr. Judith Joseph: The doctor who [00:51:10] will work through a surgery and not go to the bathroom.
[00:51:12] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:51:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: You know, the strong ones who [00:51:15] don't acknowledge their emotions, who wear that mask of productivity. No one knows they're [00:51:20] struggling. No one knows.
[00:51:21] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:51:21] Dr. Judith Joseph: I wanted something for them, because in the DSM, the [00:51:25] Bible of psychiatry, you have to check a box saying you've, you're decreased in functioning or you're [00:51:30] in distress.
[00:51:30] Dr. Judith Joseph: But what about people who have these symptoms, but they're still going, they're [00:51:35] overachieving, they're over-functioning?
[00:51:36] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:51:37] Dr. Judith Joseph: They don't slow down because they can't. People depend on them. What [00:51:40] about them? There's nothing for them. Yeah. Absolutely nothing for them. Yeah. So I wanted to make a book that [00:51:45] spoke to the strong one who actually is struggling.
[00:51:48] Dr. Judith Joseph: And, you know, it's [00:51:50] something that, you know, if you're someone who's high-functioning in your life and they don't talk about their [00:51:55] feelings, you can... The book will speak for you.
[00:51:57] Dr. Taz: And I think there's a lot of stigma, too, for the strong ones, right? Mm-hmm. [00:52:00] Like, "I, I don't need that. I don't need a therapist." Yeah.
[00:52:01] Dr. Taz: "I don't need... You know, I'm, I'm fine." Mm-hmm. "I got this. I'm gonna power through." [00:52:05] So I think this is a great way to maybe start to open up those conversations so that people can [00:52:10] use the five Vs and apply it to themselves and to their family unit as well. Absolutely. I think that's [00:52:15] incredible.
[00:52:15] Dr. Judith Joseph: Or the person who's culturally can't talk about how they feel.
[00:52:18] Dr. Judith Joseph: Like, the student who's [00:52:20] an immigrant- Yeah ... who's like, you know, they're the first person to have the opportunity, so they can't [00:52:25] complain, because the, those before them didn't have the opportunity, right? So it's for [00:52:30] people who are not traditionally acknowledging how they're feeling, and these are [00:52:35] simple ways for them to feel full and fed, to feel whole, to beat [00:52:40] anhedonia.
[00:52:40] Dr. Judith Joseph: Right. To process their trauma. Anhedonia is an important
[00:52:43] Dr. Taz: word. I hope everybody heard [00:52:45] that today. I think many people walk around in that state and assume that [00:52:50] that's just the way things should be, and they sometimes blame mid-life, they sometimes blame a partner, a [00:52:55] job, a boss. But really, it needs a little bit more inner work.
[00:52:59] Dr. Taz: Well, this has [00:53:00] been amazing. I've gotta ask you one last question- Mm ... before I let you go. What makes you hol? [00:53:05] What makes me hol is connection with others.
[00:53:07] Dr. Judith Joseph: Mm. I'm from a family of four. Four kids. [00:53:10] Four kids.
[00:53:10] Dr. Taz: I
[00:53:11] Dr. Judith Joseph: love
[00:53:11] Dr. Taz: it.
[00:53:12] Dr. Judith Joseph: I grew up in a church, so I had a community. [00:53:15] And I know when I'm slipping, when I'm, when I stop reaching out.
[00:53:19] Dr. Judith Joseph: So [00:53:20] what makes me feel hol is connection with others.
[00:53:22] Dr. Taz: And this is from a woman who is grounded in so [00:53:25] much science. Mm-hmm. And at the end of the day, it's our human experience that needs each other, and I love that. [00:53:30] Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I think this is such an important conversation.
[00:53:34] Dr. Taz: I [00:53:35] hope after this episode, families will sit down at the dinner table and [00:53:40] hopefully really take a hard look at where everybody is, you know, in terms of their mental [00:53:45] health, so that we can start to chip away at this crisis. Thanks again. Thank you for having me. [00:53:50]
[00:53:50] Dr. Taz: Thank you so much for listening and watching today's episode of Hol Plus.
[00:53:54] Dr. Taz: Be sure to [00:53:55] share this episode with your friends and family. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe [00:54:00] to this podcast on YouTube or click the follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever it is [00:54:05] that you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow me on all social channels at Dr. Taz [00:54:10] MD.
[00:54:10] Dr. Taz: Until next time, stay healthy and stay hol