Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
With a career in financial services spanning 26 years, Simon specializes in the creation and execution of technology strategies that deliver real business transformation.
In the past five years, he has been the driving force behind AXA UK’s tech shifts in the areas of the digital workplace, customer experience and artificial intelligence.
Simon has focused IT strategy on ensuring outcomes are business and customer-led while delivering tangible shareholder values. He believes the way to tackle technology complexity is to be a systems thinker and ask ‘why’. With better thinking about core technologies and integrations, Insurtech companies can prosper with new partnerships and more satisfied employees.
Join the conversation and discover how to unlock growth for your bank, neobank or fintech. Each week will talk candidly with leading entrepreneurs, executives and engineers that are building the future of banking.
unb-simon
===
[00:00:00] Mike Parsons: Welcome to unbounded tokes on growth in financial services. Hi everyone. I'm your host. Mike Patterson's unbounded is powered by flow ex.ai. Today we are talking to a real insurance technology guru. He is the intersection between business and technology. If you can believe it. That's right. His name is Simon Clayton from the United Kingdom and he's a rotten.
[00:00:27] He spent over 25 years in the insurance industry, he's done all sorts of varieties of insurance, general insurance, health, insurance, life insurance, you name it, and he's done it in the UK and far beyond that's right. And he's even worked for behemoths like the AXA group. So get ready to dig in to the growth equation.
[00:00:49] Simon, welcome to the.
[00:00:51] Simon Clayden: Mike. Thank you. Awesome to be here, described as a guru as well. That's rarefied air to be in. So thank you very much for that. Indeed.
[00:00:59] Mike Parsons: [00:01:00] Welcome. And you're sounding very energetic at almost sounds like you have been hiking in the mountainous regions of the United Kingdom.
[00:01:09] You are bringing some of that fresh air to
[00:01:11] Simon Clayden: the show. Awesome. Yeah, the last few days in the late district with my son. So we we got lots of walking in rowing. We were in caves and managed to climb the England's highest mountain as well as Scafell pike. So feeling the burn, but really energized well,
[00:01:27] Mike Parsons: those mountains those rivers sound quite challenging.
[00:01:32] It's. Quite similar to trying to deploy technology and large insurance businesses. Doesn't it. Tell us a little bit about this epic journey that you had for over 25 years. Getting that job done, building bridges between tech and business. Tell us a little bit about that.
[00:01:49] Simon Clayden: Yeah, it's been, it has been quite a journey.
[00:01:51] So I can't believe it's been 25 years. I started in customer service, customer operations. So I came from a background of dealing with customers [00:02:00] every day and trying to help them and work out what they need. And that taught me a lot that gave me a great foundation into understanding. Kind of customer journeys before I realized what customer journeys were and customer experience, but you're living and breathing it, they day to day.
[00:02:17] From that I, I started to drift into, and it was drift into project management and program management just because I liked. Taking small problems and trying to fix them, certainly from the customer's point of view. And someone somewhere saw some talent in me on the it side, because I was able to bring this view.
[00:02:40] Being able to understand what's happening in operations, what's happening from the customer's point of view and talk to the, it guys, the tech guys in a language that they could understand. It's this is what we need over here. So how can we find a way to delay. The outcome and help both sides [00:03:00] build that big picture.
[00:03:02] One of the first things that I did, it was back in around 2009. It was not long after the iPhone had launched. I designed the UK is first insurance iOS app. There was a race. I didn't know it was a race between us and one other organization. But we managed to cross that line first which was great, the biggest thing I learned from that, and I talk about this often to when we were looking at, what's driving a project is we.
[00:03:37] Understand the why at that point I was driven by, let's be first to launch an iOS app. And. The first person that used the app was my wife. She crashed our car and we got a notification. The the engineering team thought I was still testing the app. They didn't think it was a real [00:04:00] claim.
[00:04:00] I often think of it. And you're from Australia. You probably can get this more than me. It's like riding a surf board. I think when you're dealing with understanding it change. If you go too soon, you missed the wave. If you go too late, you get crash and burn. You've got to find that, that point of understanding what's the right point to set off.
[00:04:21] So that's what I try and do. With a business architecture view often is help both sides. Understand when are we going to surf that way? And where are we trying to get to?
[00:04:32] Mike Parsons: I love this surfing analogy. I think we've got somebody to run with for this show. Could there be a more difficult or challenging position in the last decade in FinTech insurance tech, then that.
[00:04:48] Business architecture, building the bridge between business and technology. It sounds like you were in the hot seats.
[00:04:55] Simon Clayden: Certainly we've large organizations that have hundreds of [00:05:00] millions of customers that they're dealing with. But also it seems like just as many products and systems to deal with you need, there, there's a, there's definitely a fine balance between getting too far into the detail and having that big pitch of you and certainly.
[00:05:17] Yeah. I was surrounded by people that have that detailed knowledge of how systems work process experts. What I bought to, I think, and hope was that ability to stand back and help others understand, what's going on around us. What's the, not just the inside the organization context, but what's happening outside of the organization.
[00:05:42] What trends are emerging in technology? What's. Change and is driving customer behavior. There was no shortage of that over the last few years.
[00:05:54] Mike Parsons: It's it? Doesn't stop. Does it? So here's a, here's an interesting question. I'd love to follow up with [00:06:00] how does someone listening to our show, develop this capacity to bridge technology and business?
[00:06:11] And it sounds to me like the hint that you're giving us is it's the capacity to be close to customers, the capacity to have stepped back and have a little bit more contents context, ask the why question, how do we develop these sort of skills? What advice would you give to somebody starting their career in in FinTech?
[00:06:31] Simon Clayden: Sure. Certainly, coming from the sort of. Th that I've been describing where you're that bridge. Then when I was bringing in people, I was after a lot by kind of recruiters. What sort of person you're looking for? What sort of skillset? It was more important to me that they had that ability.
[00:06:49] You just said it to ask the why question a lot. And you can start to annoy people a lot by continuing to asking why, but the more you do that, you more, you dig in [00:07:00] and help the other person understand. Oh, H hopefully take them on that path that they understand what's driving the change. What destination are they trying to get to?
[00:07:11] A lot of times I was surrounded by execs that were fascinated and focused on the. The delivery kind of the box being unwrapped as the outcome, get that in and we've succeeded. How do you know what the value is? You've got to, you've got to know why you're on the journey as much as what the journey is.
[00:07:34] So for me, It was more about the people having the right stuff about them, rather than, have they got a certificate that proved that they were a business architect or an enterprise architect? I could teach them that we could give them the, the technical knowledge, but there was that almost.
[00:07:56] It sounds really basic, but that ability, just to be able to ask [00:08:00] why and dig into those conversations with people was really critical to the.
[00:08:06] Mike Parsons: There's this great practice that originated in Toyota in Japan, which was to ask why five times and they believed you would get to the source of any problem.
[00:08:19] Have you ever, are you familiar with this
[00:08:20] Simon Clayden: model? Yeah, they, yeah. And the whole Shingo yes. Institute approach to that and Kaiser. Yeah. Also with GA with, six Sigma. So you're looking at, and that's more kind of than the measurement of it, but certainly that was a lot of the approach and the skills that I had in the teams that I've worked with, where they were, people that were coming from that background.
[00:08:44] That then had enough knowledge of technology to, to get by. It's surrounded by excellent people that know the engineering side of it, but you've got to help them as much as the business go on that journey. So they definitely needed that skillset, but you're right. Just keep [00:09:00] asking why until you get clarity or
[00:09:03] Mike Parsons: you get kicked out of the room either way, right?
[00:09:06] So what an interesting way to frame our conversation today? It's almost yeah. Bring the skills and the expertise, but it's almost like you're challenging us. Bring the mindset, be customer first. Ask why be relentless in thinking through what you're doing. That's like a great way to frame our conversation.
[00:09:27] Yeah.
[00:09:28] Simon Clayden: Absolutely. I think one of the things that I created in one of the organizations at work that to help this was I referred to it as a business design or authority. It wasn't a committee that decided whether we were going to do something or not. It was a forum made up of business people and technology, people that kick the tires.
[00:09:55] On change requests on new project requests, on [00:10:00] investment requests and made sure that whatever was being considered when all the way back to a strategic objective. So did it tick the box around where the organization was trying to head then? Where did it. In the existing architecture. Yeah. Did it compliment the existing architecture?
[00:10:21] Did it change it for good? Did we need to consider how it might impact other things? And this authority would give guidance and direction to these change teams and help people make informed decisions. And there's another thing. With my role. Yeah. I was stressed all the time. That for me is where I added value that I could help people make informed decisions.
[00:10:45] I'm not going to make the decision. It's not up to me to say yes or no that we're going to do this, but I'm going to help you understand. What the implications are, what the value is. If we say yes, no, but that business design authority ended up being a [00:11:00] really valuable group in helping to drive change in the right direction.
[00:11:06] Mike Parsons: That's fascinating that we've talked about building bridges assignment, and that kind of sets us up to talk about some of the complexity challenges that you faced in getting this job done, which is not to be underestimated. Before we jump into that. I just want to remind all of our listeners that unbounded talks is powered by flow x.ai.
[00:11:28] So if you want to know more about flow x.ai, head over to flow x.ai, check it out. This is all about you having the platform to solve your complexity, to move faster and to unlock more growth in your business. So Simon let's get into some of the nasty, dirty aspects of big technology and where better than for us to think about the complexity that you must have faced.
[00:11:59] [00:12:00] For the benefit of our listeners, you have been in the role, you were just discussing, overseeing that architecture on systems that have had over a hundred million. Customers, I just shutter at the thought of how complex that must have been. And in particularly, how did you bring technology together?
[00:12:24] How did you do your integrations at such a scale? How, walk us through the way to think about this, share with us how we can tackle that, because at that level of scale, just one. Tip, turning of one degree of the big ship can have really significant consequential effects. So tell us how was the complexity how'd you think about it and importantly, how did you.
[00:12:52] Yeah
[00:12:53] Simon Clayden: not successfully all the time. It was certainly more complex than it. I think it needed to be. And [00:13:00] why I say that is so as a member of the global architecture review board. And so like I was describing with the design authority, this was on a global level. This all pregnant in the same sort of way, considering what the roadmap is and they would ultimately give green lights or red lines and things.
[00:13:19] What I found the word again, that I was really. I was saying, people come in with requests that just said, we want to implement technology X technology. Y right there, wasn't a clear vision. There wasn't that reason why there wasn't the outcome. There wasn't a description of the value. They would come with a big list of benefits on a page and it was like, okay, but you'll never one.
[00:13:47] You're never gonna do that. All 12 of those benefits. No, no one ever does. So focus on three or four that are true. And how are you going to measure them at the end of it? The lack of a single big [00:14:00] picture, but that big picture needed to consider. The experience. So what's happening at a process level what's happening across your organization.
[00:14:09] So how are these people going to use the technology? Is it going to work for them in the way? Interesting. That's
[00:14:18] Mike Parsons: interesting. Isn't it? That we have this dream of this big shiny savior of technology. And then you're like hang on. How people actually going to use this? W would it be fair to say, do you think it's just human nature often when we're trying to just keep sprinting, keep running along that we just want to throw in another thing and people just neglect that thought of like, how's this going to live and operate in our business?
[00:14:45] Is it fair to say that most people don't address that by now?
[00:14:48] Simon Clayden: Yeah we got into, there was an example. We got into a system, a replacement, it was looking at claims operations and it was, it was replacing [00:15:00] system X with system. Y we got into about 18 months. Transformation project and it wasn't delivering the features and functionalities that the business needed.
[00:15:14] So we paused. And it's rare that you pause on a program where you're spending millions of pounds or dollars or whatever. And. We then took the time and this is a big learning. We should have done this at the start, understand what's happening at a process level first because you're right. People using the technology.
[00:15:36] I often describe it as and trails and they weave their way. On a path that works for them, avoiding obstacles and barriers in the way. And that's what people do with systems when you're using it every day, the shortcuts and I've got to find this piece of information, but it's not actually in the [00:16:00] core system.
[00:16:00] I've got to go over here. So I need this open in my brain at the same time. If you don't sit with people who are using the technology. To see them using it. You're never going to understand that. So we did that. We paused for a few months, look at that process level, but it wasn't, again, it wasn't locked away in a room with whiteboards, trying to work out the process.
[00:16:24] It was time spent back on the floor with the end users and that we learned a lot from that isn't that,
[00:16:32] Mike Parsons: that is really isn't it like a home true. Right there. So it's pause whatever your dreams and ambitions are in PowerPoint or your, architectural maps software, with all your lines and bubbles, just pull up. At start with the process. And I think what you're encouraging us to do is get out of your seat, go onto the floor, get in the field, go into the branch and see the [00:17:00] reality of a workflow. See it in real life for all its ugliness and clunkiness, and have to go from this system to that system.
[00:17:08] Hang on, I'll go and get the manual thing over here. I'll put that in the mix. I'm the wizard, because I can like juggle these three things to get the job. That's the reality. If we go process level first.
[00:17:20] Simon Clayden: Exactly. And you will reap the benefits in terms of time saved, on, on the program projects.
[00:17:28] If you invest just a small amount of time at the start to do that property, don't think of this is, creating epics stories. If you're an agile weld or requirements documents, if you're more the dinosaur like me. Yeah, it's not just about creating that document. That has a list of requirements in there that time spent in the real world is going to reap rewards if you do
[00:17:51] Mike Parsons: it.
[00:17:52] So that's interesting, isn't it? Because there is an aversion to that work. Do you think that the work of, [00:18:00] Hey, let's spend some time with those on the frontline of customer support and look at the workflows, the ticketing system, do you think? Let me ask you, why do you think it is.
[00:18:10] In general, if you look at large enterprises, not enough time is spent understanding the basic process. Why is it just seen as inconsequential? Is it, why is it that, that, that doesn't happen more?
[00:18:25] Simon Clayden: It's hard. It's hard work. And it's, I think because it's difficult to take. A process and map it out clearly.
[00:18:39] And there will be so many left and right turns that can happen on that process. I think it gets too big for people. If you don't have the. Knowledge background experience to do that work in that black belt, six Sigma. Those guys eat that off one at a time. So
[00:18:58] Mike Parsons: do you think it's also [00:19:00] part of, let's say we, you and I went on the floor and collected data from 10 customer support people.
[00:19:05] Then we've got a write up 10 transcripts and we've got like volumes of data. Then we have to interpret what did it mean? There's just a lot of heavy lifting there. That's under.
[00:19:15] Simon Clayden: Absolutely. And that was a lot of my time. And my team's time was spent doing that heavy lifting, doing that dirty work, holding the pen, going along with people and capturing all of that and building that knowledge base.
[00:19:31] And, again, my experience we often relied too much on. I would ask this question a lot. Where is the process map? Oh, we haven't got, we, haven't got a map. It's not written down. What you need to do is you need to go and ask Mike, Mike's got that. It's in his head. Sorry
[00:19:50] Mike Parsons: whatever you do, don't harm, Mike.
[00:19:53] Don't get in a small airplane or anything like that. Cause he's the only one.
[00:19:58] Simon Clayden: What happens when Mike [00:20:00] leaves like this wrap Mike in bubble wrap, because once he goes, then we're going to lose. All of that knowledge. So again it's almost, you only get that with hindsight. You only get that when something goes wrong, like that claims transformation example that we had to press pause and it's okay, if we just did this and maintained those sorts of views of what's happening at a process level, what's happening with your customer journey, making sure that's all understood that.
[00:20:30] It becomes less effort over time because you just you've got it. And you're just maintaining, updating as you go.
[00:20:40] Mike Parsons: Yeah. Do you think Simon, this was your key weapon process level for. Do you believe this was your antidote to complexity in the world of technology and finance?
[00:20:53] Simon Clayden: It helped on so many of our large scale transformations, I've overseen and worked or.[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] Digital transformation. And that, that took time to, to get going because the strategy wasn't clear at the start, the, why are we doing this? Wasn't clear. I've worked on data transformations. And again, it wasn't clear on what we mean by. Data, first of all, what we then want to do with that, what insight are we looking to do?
[00:21:29] Where are we going to create value? I've worked on automation and AI projects and you were then struggling with. The immaturity of the technology and the immaturity of the skills and the ability to use the technology. So bringing just that, that ability not to, I don't need to be an expert in any of those.
[00:21:52] I'm not, but I can bring my expertise and helping visualize. What's going on [00:22:00] across that it's higher operating model that I think is where organizations need to invest more effort and time to, to get.
[00:22:09] Mike Parsons: Would it be fair for me to try and sell you on your own? Kool-Aid here for a second.
[00:22:15] I'm going to say that your idea is that the, this process level first thinking this workflow, first thinking this user journey first thinking is the antidote to complexity because it becomes. If you will, the single source of truth, it becomes, you can build everything from those flows and processes.
[00:22:40] They can guide you through all of those complexities those, conflicting interests and so forth, because you can always go back to the process. What's the process we need to enable. Would that be.
[00:22:54] Simon Clayden: Yeah. What, how have you want to describe it? Whether you described things as having value streams, [00:23:00] process maps, customer journey maps have something that you can refer back to as a blueprint.
[00:23:06] I love the customer journey mapping approach. The flip side is, and just as important as employee journey, but they're the same thing from that you can visualize what is happening. Across your business, why it's happening, but also who's doing it when they're doing it, what systems and technology they're using.
[00:23:28] But you also, if you're then maintaining it, if it's a living document, you are also capturing the hurdles that users or customers are facing throughout that. And we then can go, okay. Let's focus on why is that a blocker? How can we fix that? How can we make that more simple and work your way through just gradually incrementally improving the customer journey?
[00:23:54] Mike Parsons: Ron, I think Canada, can I just grab you there? I think you just said one thing that is [00:24:00] super, super important. I think. Undersold it a little Simon. So I feel like I'm your agent here. Now, let me say this. You referenced the fact that you don't just create your process level flow or your customer user journey once, but you touched on something that I think.
[00:24:21] Is critical for us to call out, which is, it becomes a living document because customers and employees are not static entities. They don't only exist one time. They're in continuous forms of change. If we need any evidence of that, just look at how wildly customer world has changed. Can't go to branches, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:24:44] Look at employees of the same institution there are working from home or in hybrid setups. So as a proxy for your success in dealing with complexity, how often are you updating your user journeys? Be [00:25:00] it for employees or customers over the last two years. That's almost like a health check.
[00:25:05] Simon Clayden: Is it really is Mike.
[00:25:07] You've got to, you've got to update as much as you can. And I would say there isn't too much that you can do to, in to ensure that I remember one of the businesses they invested with an outside agency specialists in creating customer journey maps. They did an awesome. Job an entire wall was dedicated to a customer journey map.
[00:25:32] I went back to that office over the course of three or four years, the map was in the same place, untouched. It was exactly the same for about four years. There is no way. The products were the same, that the way that the systems were working, the systems changed yet, the map was the same. So it was that again, the output is not the outcome.
[00:25:59] [00:26:00] You've got to keep that document alive and that, and use that to inform and drive where you're heading in terms of the transformation boy.
[00:26:11] Mike Parsons: You've really set us up now to put our minds towards now that we've got this baseline of complexity, we can start to rethink around some strategies around the core strategies around, tech debt, core technologies and that sort of thing.
[00:26:27] But before we go there, I want to remind all of our listeners that unbounded talks is powered by flow x.ai. All right, Simon. So I think we've done well. We've laid our foundation, the concrete, the supporting balustrades they're all in there and they're ready to go. It now gives us a chance to say we've got the complexity under control.
[00:26:50] We have our process level diagrams flows, journeys. They're mapped their continuous living. I want to bring your bridge-building [00:27:00] between the business and technology and the customer. I want you to tackle this idea of what we often talk about is that the system. The legacy technologies. You often hear folks in the world of financial services talking about the constraints, talking about the blockers.
[00:27:22] How many times Simon have you been in meetings where people are saying we can't do that? We don't have that. Does that must've happened so much?
[00:27:32] Simon Clayden: Yeah. Yeah. There were both sides of that, Mike there's the we can't do. And I think equally as frustrating for me is people that asking me, what's the easiest way we can make this happen as well.
[00:27:47] Are you really invested in. What you're talking about. If you're looking for the easiest, rather than describing it as the best way, or how can we make something better? So again, it sounds like common [00:28:00] sense, but a lot of the conversation that I have is just digging into. Okay. You say easy, do you mean better?
[00:28:06] Yes, I do. All right. Okay. That's good. Let's jump off from that point.
[00:28:11] Mike Parsons: Why is it because what you're really saying with easiest. They're actually coming to and say, can I have another band-aid please?
[00:28:19] Simon Clayden: Yeah. Yeah. Often. Yeah, I had when we, about 2018 people started to get very excited about automation for the first time.
[00:28:29] That's when I recognize it as a trend. And I had people coming to me at that point saying we want an automation program. We want to pilot this. And there was. There were people on the business side that were describing it as a way to drive down costs. What they were really talking about was headcount reduction.
[00:28:50] That was the only way in their mind. They were going to drive down that cost. We can replace people through automation. So there was, I had to spend [00:29:00] a lot of time. Exploring and helping with back to the, for exercise, but exploring what was going on and where the real value on automation programs were.
[00:29:14] And it's not. Automation, software, robots, whatever you want to call them. They don't replace people. They give time back. They give productivity back. That's what we learned is not that we don't need Simon anymore. We're actually freeing up more of Simon's valuable time taking away those tasks that he doesn't need to do.
[00:29:37] All right. Kiss on the value, add stuff with the customers. And that's where we then went with, particularly the automation program. Likewise, on that, I had so many of my it colleagues you, you said it, they described automation as a sticking plaster. We don't want to be investing our time and worrying about, creating.
[00:29:59] [00:30:00] That capability. We want to be fixing core. Yes. You do realize that there is value in. Being able to automate a lot of the it operations and in the same way, giving our engineers, giving our service technicians that time back and that productivity back. And then they can focus on thinking about how we can transform how we can get better, but you're not going to do that unless you do apply a sticking plaster or some sorts.
[00:30:30] So
[00:30:31] Mike Parsons: yeah. Yeah. So let me. Try to decode this a little bit. I think where you're challenging us is no more band-aid approaches. No more quick fixes. Stop asking for easy start asking for better. And to your earlier analogy better was don't have to replace the call. You can use automation, new layers to make it perform better in order to free up [00:31:00] and to your staff your mind, your resources to do many other things.
[00:31:04] Would that be a fair summation?
[00:31:07] Simon Clayden: I would agree, Mike, as long as those additional layers are not increasing complexity, I think, you've gotta be, you gotta be careful about what you're introducing and why, and then is the value there. But certainly considering how people. Processes and technology combine and work together and understanding the outcome that you're looking for.
[00:31:32] Be really clear on just that when I say it, it sounds really basic, but where to customers want to interact with your organization online, where do they still need to talk to a real person? Being clear on those sorts of just basic choices, but you then. I understand that and create something that works true the end to end.
[00:31:55] So
[00:31:56] Mike Parsons: Simon, give me give me an example of where [00:32:00] you've breathed thought the core where you've gained those sorts of efficiencies. You mentioned automation. I'd love to hear about a time where you've taken the existing engine and got more out of it just by taking a different mindset, asking different questions.
[00:32:19] Simon Clayden: Sure. So I think we've with a data program, data transformation that I worked or. There was quite considered investment. We were looking at building master data management, MDM. We had customer data stores already, but we didn't know what was in the. And they, again, they were maintained.
[00:32:40] So were they accurate views of what's going on at a customer level? People were fixated at the time on cross sell and upsell being that the value that we were going to get from the investment in these data technologies. And they spent huge amount of times looking at the [00:33:00] potential of Mike having home insurance over here.
[00:33:04] And can we sell him health insurance over there? And what's the likelihood of that happening where really the value came from understanding more about Mike as a person. First of all. And how can we make the products that Mike has already got even better without worrying about? Can we sell additional products?
[00:33:30] Oh, can we retain Mike? And that then suddenly unlocked huge potential and huge discussions in there. Making the most of the data that we had about customers not to try and grow. In terms of new products, but retain, and there were light bulb moments there certainly within the business when we were describing it that way.
[00:33:57] And also the potential for [00:34:00] understanding. Mike Simon and using that to help with the regulation that was coming along, because we were talking about a time when GDPR was front and center. How are we going to manage that? How do we manage consent while you can do that in this MDM technology that we've just introduced, because you can capture as much as you want about Mike in there and record concerns.
[00:34:29] At a customer level as well. So there was unexpected value in there and we went off on a bit of a tangent, but there was a lot of challenges that we had to do with the exact, because they thought the value was, it was growth as in, cross sell up, sell top line,
[00:34:46] Mike Parsons: right? Like just add more in the top of the funnel or some might say the leaky bucket, but you turned it around and said what let's plug the bucket for a second here.
[00:34:56] Simon Clayden: Yeah, exactly. And I think there's when I think about [00:35:00] startups and yeah, there they're great companies they're in InsureTech. I've had conversations where, are the other traditional or the incumbents at risk from startups. So they're going to come and eat our dinner. And I don't think the future is there.
[00:35:16] It's not about. Is it us or them? Is it the David or Goliath? I think the future is going to be where they're working together. I think it's going to be partnerships and it's understanding where those potentials are for those partnerships. How can we take the startup mindset? Those guys that are there, they can turn out something really quickly.
[00:35:37] They're great at the prototyping, but they specialize in something that's niche, but then they work with. The traditional guys that have got scale, they understand regulation, and they've got a huge customer base. Let's bring the two together to then offer something new and unique in terms of features.
[00:35:57] Isn't
[00:35:58] Mike Parsons: that surely what happens [00:36:00] when those that have thought about their core technologies and their integrations better than others will be free to connect interconnect, collaborate with. Vendors and partners all around the world because their systems are capable of keeping up with that sort of strategy.
[00:36:24] Isn't that really what we're talking about? This is a beautiful build into what happens when you think about the core? What I would propose from what you've just said, Simon, is that if you get your core right, rather than being. Rather than looking backwards and looking inside and dealing with, deploying 80% of your time, money, and resources to managing the existing core, you can start a shift where you're like let's go part with these guys.
[00:36:54] Let's add that to our sex. Let's do an API integration with them. Let's connect with these guys. Let's [00:37:00] do a web services partnership with these guys. Let's use any of these systems to interconnect and to ask ourselves a fundamental question, how can we add more value to our customers? Surely this is the north the north pole, but this is the thing calling us.
[00:37:17] This is why we should address our core systems and ask I think, harder questions, tougher questions. I am I selling you back your own Kool-Aid now?
[00:37:28] Simon Clayden: Yeah. Yeah. You're preaching, you're singing to the choir. There you go. Guess it's legacy is it's costly to maintain. You just mentioned that I don't agree about two thirds of it.
[00:37:41] Budget is usually just running existing operations and then we're okay. We've got one third left to try and do something new to, to transform. And there's this view that there's not enough. There's not enough money there, but I think it's that traditional mindset of thinking we're going to build in house.
[00:37:58] We're going to, we're going to, we're [00:38:00] going to do this ourselves. I think the future is. Partnership work with these great new companies that have expertise. They've got a great product in that niche area that, that can add that value to you already got. But what they lack is scale. You've got it.
[00:38:21] You've got the customer base, bring the two together, find that mutual value, but I've had those conversations with, Companies in the insure tech space and they want to, their first bit is understanding how their product can add value. If it goes back if you don't have that big picture view of how your organization works, the systems, how they work, how they interact with the processes, you can't have that really basic conversation with any third party company about where the value is in there in a potential partnership.
[00:38:52] You've got to have that knowledge at the time.
[00:38:55] Mike Parsons: We've spoken a lot about this better thinking.[00:39:00] Don't go, just go for easy, go for better. We've talked about rethinking the core and how we can open up business with integrations, how we can seize new opportunities and you're painting a future for us, which is built around partnerships integrating stacks together.
[00:39:17] A lot of that. Tells us about what's going to happen outside of financial service companies be a banks or insurance companies, but I would love to get your thoughts on how, if we have done this better thinking about technology, be it the core bit of the legacy of the integrations. If we have done that, how do things change inside the organization?
[00:39:42] Like what are the stakes we're fighting for? Inside of the team, the organization, the it department and beyond what do you think the possibilities in the future offer them? If they approach tech?
[00:39:54] Simon Clayden: So I touched on it earlier. I think we're in a different world now after [00:40:00] COVID, everyone is looking for flexible working or companies are in an increasingly kind of shallow pool of good skilled people.
[00:40:13] If we can use technology to augment people's skills and knowledge. And it's almost your you've given them a, an exoskeleton suit to make them better. Better people. That is what I think that's how we can change internally. It's not that we've, we're all competing in each other for the best people.
[00:40:39] It's leveled the playing field through, through the smart use of technology, upskill people, that you don't need to be. Yeah the best engineer ever within the, within an it department use the technology to give you that boost. That's where I think the future is
[00:40:59] Mike Parsons: that [00:41:00] sounds like a pretty rosy future, but I think we both need to remind ourselves of the hard work of asking why focusing on customers, employees, process level, user journey level.
[00:41:15] That's the hardware like any training program at the gym, or if you want to run a marathon, you got to put it in the training. If you want to perform on the day.
[00:41:25] Simon Clayden: Completely agree that's where the hard work really is that time spent, as you say, in the gym, out on the road. But if you do that, then you'll get your personal best.
[00:41:38] You definitely will.
[00:41:40] Mike Parsons: Listen, we have covered a lot of ground together today, Simon. It started with opening us. You challenged us to bring the right mindset to, to focus on customers, to ask why and that the ultimate source of truth is that at a process level, at a journey of we're at each and every.
[00:41:59] Stakeholders [00:42:00] user experience and we're in the battle for better, not necessarily easier. And if we do so there's a future of interconnected services that create more value for customers and employees to. Is a very tasty conversation. Simon and I know our listeners will be thinking to themselves, how do they find you on that famous thing?
[00:42:23] The world wide internet? I U a Instagram take TOK, LinkedIn, a guy. If people are typing in Simon and Claydon from the United Kingdom, where shall they find you to connect and ask you more questions?
[00:42:38] Simon Clayden: Definitely on LinkedIn, Mike, that's the that's the best way to get me. So search for Simon Claydon there are many of us out there.
[00:42:46] Certainly not many of us does describe as InsureTech gurus.
[00:42:51] Mike Parsons: Simon, don't worry about that because I think we'll be including a link to you and all of the topics that we have discussed in our show notes, [00:43:00] you can get our show notes over. Unbounded adult flow x.ai, and you can get all the links, the transcript, everything you will find.
[00:43:10] The Simon I've really enjoyed this conversation. I feel like you gave me some homework assignments, ask better questions, go down process level. Have you enjoyed the conversation?
[00:43:22] Simon Clayden: It's been great, Mike. Yeah. And again, it just makes me know it was good to reflect and it makes me think about what I've learned and what, what I can always do differently.
[00:43:32] So thanks for that. It's been really enjoying.
[00:43:36] Mike Parsons: Thank you ever so much. And thank you to you and listeners for tuning into unbounded talks. And we hope that you have got that energy kick. We hope that you are ready to ask better questions and go right down. To a customer, to employee level, to a process level and we'll keep Simon Clayton happy.
[00:43:56] All right. That's it for unbounded talks, we're powered by flow [00:44:00] x.ai. If you want to know more about us head over to unbounded, but flow ex.ai. All right guys, that's a wrap.