The Meat Mafia Podcast

Cody Hopkins is the co-founder of Grassroots Farmers' Cooperative, a pioneering initiative based in rural Arkansas dedicated to connecting consumers with high-quality, ethically-raised meat products. As a first-generation farmer, Cody, along with his wife, transitioned from a background in physics to sustainable farming inspired by figures like Joel Salatin. Over the past decade, they have built Grassroots from the ground up, emphasizing transparency, sustainability, and community-driven solutions to the challenges of modern agriculture.

Key topics discussed: 
  • Impact of COVID-19 on consumer behavior and food system resilience
  • The necessity for more decentralized food processing infrastructure
  • Socioeconomic components of food pricing and consumer education
  • Innovative financing and ownership models for sustainable agriculture
  • Role of farm subsidies and government policies in shaping the food system
Timestamps:

(00:00) - Shifting Consumer Behavior Post-COVID
(04:00) - The Economics of Food Pricing and Quality
(06:15) - Advocating for Less Meat but Better Quality
(12:00) - The Realities of Industrial Poultry Farming
(18:00) - Innovative Financing and Ownership Models in Agriculture


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Creators & Guests

Host
Brett Ender 🥩⚡️
The food system is corrupt and trying to poison us... I will teach you how to fight back. Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod 🥩
Host
Harry Gray 🥩⚡️
Leading the Red Meat Renaissance 🥩 ⚡️| Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod

What is The Meat Mafia Podcast?

The Meat Mafia Podcast is hosted by @MeatMafiaBrett and @MeatMafiaHarry with the mission of addressing fundamental problems in our food and healthcare system. Our concerns with our healthcare system can be drawn back to issues in our food system as far back as soil health. Our principles are simple: eat real foods, buy locally, and cook your own meals.

When you listen to our podcast, you will hear stories and conversations from people working on the fringes of the food and healthcare system to address the major crises overshadowing modern society: how do we become healthy again?

themeatmafiapodcast.substack.com

Part 2
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[00:00:00] Did you see a shift in consumers behavior and attitude towards food after cobit?

Because. I know people were worried for the first time ever that grocery stores weren't going to have food on the shelves. And it was really the first time that we were forced to question the existing paradigm around food, whether or not, you know, this conveyor, this conveyor belt that we've gotten grown so accustomed to and gotten really comfortable with just food kind of just being there.

Um, you know, it stopped for the first time. So we all kind of had to sit back and reconsider, Hey, is large scale food really the best model here? Or should we be looking at resiliency as opposed to Massive scaled, scaled up food that we're able to send all across the world. Yeah, it's definitely started some conversations that didn't, they weren't happening beforehand.

I would say that, um, you know, there's definitely a, uh, I think it's easy to go back to the, you know, cheap food, you know, uh, for a lot of folks, but, um, I think there's definitely conversations around and you're seeing also like even the USDA make some investments in infrastructure that support a more decentralized food system that then, uh, um, That was happening before, which is exciting around like meat processing, for instance, I mean to give it one stat, I think there's, it's maybe less than 20 poultry processing plants that will service independent farmers across the country.

There are, I mean maybe two or three west of the Rockies and so there's basically like, I mean that's to me it just shows like how. Like, if you're a poultry farmer, or you want to be a pasture poultry farmer in, say, the state of Washington is, you know, you don't have the option to get USDA processing and and so, um, one of the big things coming out of covert is the.

Realization that we do need more processing plants and you know, I think that the key here is [00:01:00] making sure that, uh, the consumer demand and we keep educating consumers on the benefits of buying this way. So that, um, you know, as we build this infrastructure and get more farms off the ground, we're able to, uh, um, you know, support those farms and, you know, have enough customer demand to be able to do that.

So that's really where, um, I see like the big, That's what's going to drive the change over time. It's just how How much are the consumers going to demand this kind of product? And that's the X factor in really changing the system because that will drive everything over time. And I think that, you know, it's, you're seeing more and more awareness and understanding of it.

Um, and I think that, uh, It'll be interesting to see where it goes over the next 10 years, because the past 10 years, a lot has changed. I mean, there's so much more demand for this than when we started the co op back in 2014. Um, and, uh, it's going to be really interesting to see where this goes over the next 10 years.

Yeah. One of the things I think about often is kind of just the, um, socioeconomic component of this, where, you know, the education component is so huge, but there's also just the reality of the situation, where Food prices are going up and I'd be curious to just get your take on kind of just articulating and decomposing, deconstructing food prices in general.

Like how do you articulate that to your customers? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, one thing I'm an advocate for is, uh, you know, eat, uh, less meat, but better meat. So that's, that's one sort of position that I have pretty strongly I think we eat, you know, a lot of, a lot of meat that is, Um, you know, if you're eating like chicken nuggets in the shape of a dinosaur, you know, I mean, like, there's just like a lot of mindless meat consumption, I would say, uh, and so, um, but better meat, it's more nutrient dense, uh, all [00:02:00] for that, uh, less of it, but yeah, I'm also okay with that too.

And, um, And then I also think that, uh, I mean, you know, one thing, then this is, if you look at the price of a Snickers bar per pound, I think it's around like 15 bucks a pound, you know, so to me, it is a matter of like, if you look at ground grass fed ground beef, maybe it's 10, 11, 12 bucks a pound, uh, you know, depending on where you're getting it.

And, you know, so a Snickers bar, when you compare it. nutritionally is going to be a lot less nutritionally dense than a pound of grass fed beef. And so, um, I, you know, that's, I think there, some of it too, is about prioritizing, you know, what's important to you. And also, you know, people getting better at cooking is something like cooking.

You know, uh, more cooking at home is something that was a big, that was a big thing that happened during the pandemic. It's waned a bit for sure because people and restaurants are open. I love restaurants. Everybody loves restaurants, but, um, there was just so much more cooking at home during that period.

That was a really, uh, exciting thing to me is to see that piece. But, um, but I think there's, uh, you know, food is, you know, Um, I mean another thing that I think another sort of perspective I have on this that it was, I believe is in one of Michael Pollan's books he's, he gave us that I don't remember the exact numbers but back in the, like the 50s.

We were paying about 18 percent of our income for, for food, and like 7 percent for healthcare. Well, today we're doing just the opposite. We're paying 18 percent like food is as cheap as we have the cheapest food in anywhere in the, in the developed world, uh, as a percent of income and, but we're paying almost 18 or 20 percent of our income on healthcare.

And so that switch to me is just, uh, I mean, we're, we're [00:03:00] basically going to a processed food diet, really cheap food, lots of, you know, filled with lots of fillers, grain, you know, sweetener, uh, and, um, and then we're having to pay a big chunk of money on our, for healthcare because of that. And to me, uh, I would much rather eat processed food.

pay more for food that tastes better and is healthier for me, uh, than, uh, and pay less for health care, you know, and so I think there's, um, it's a matter of priorities and also, um, you know, like they've, we just create a lot of really easy cheap food that is, I know it's gone up over the past, you know, couple of years with inflation, but it's still cheap compared to the rest of the world, the developed world and.

So much of it's empty calories that, um, is, uh, is not, you know, is actually, you know, is not good for you. And so, um, to me, those are kind of things I think of when I think about, you know, the economics of food and how, uh, um, you know, is, is cheap meat really that cheap? I mean, it's, it's cheap in some ways.

Yeah, sure. Remember cheaper, For, you know, just on face value. But when you think about the, um, the, the health impacts of it, the environmental impacts of this is what I'm going back to what I said early on the conversation, I mean, we're, we have a food system that prioritizes producing the cheapest possible meat or food out there.

You know, just how, you know, the cheaper, the better, nothing else really matters. Right. And, uh, you know, we value. We want to take care of the environment. We want to make sure farmers and the food workers, the processing plant can make a decent living doing this. We want to make sure that customers have a really, really nutrient dense, healthy product.

We want to make sure that we're doing [00:04:00] everything we can to mitigate climate change. So we're baking that into our system because we Value that and sure our stuff costs more, but it's still, you know, our grass fed beef is still cheaper per pound than a Snickers bar. So yeah, I love that stat. Um, yeah, it's a, it's pretty wild.

I mean, I, I, every time I said like every couple of years, I'll go back and look and like, it's still like, you know, it's all price per ounce there. Uh, but it's, uh, you know, and if it's not like, you know, They're like either right neck and neck or grass fed beef's a little bit cheaper. Um, I don't think I've ever seen it where grass fed beef is more expensive than a Snickers bar per pound.

Yeah, yeah, it just, it highlights what you're talking about too, which is on a dollar per nutrient dense basis. Is really how we should be thinking about this, right? If you're, if you're trying to fuel yourself for good health and avoid some of these negative health outcomes that come from eating highly processed foods, you should be investing on the front end, which obviously is maybe a little bit more painful, but on the back end, you're.

Living a healthier life, you feel much better. You're able to invest your energy into things that are actually meaningful as opposed to getting trapped up in this system. That seems to like, start with education, go into kind of different models of, you know, how we create food, how we, um, you know, just go about working and then, you know, on the back end of that is usually some pretty negative health outcomes.

So. That's right. Yeah. And we spend a ton of money on like, you know, medicine, health supplements. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't, you know, take some health supplements. I think that's, you know, that's, um, start with really, you know, start your base should be a really healthy diet and looking for foods that are nutrient dense and, um, and, uh, and the way it's raised.

And, you know, like one thing we like to say is not just what you eat, but what you eat, [00:05:00] eats that's important. Right. And so really like, you know, uh, I mean, we spend a lot of money on food, uh, and, um, really taking that seriously and trying to. Um, educate yourself on, well, where can I get, you know, what is going to be the most nutrient dense beef or pork or carrot out there?

And so I think that's really one of the things that can help push more consumer adoption of this is the more, there's a guy out there named, I think his name is Dan Kittredge. If you haven't heard of him, he might, he'd be a great person on this podcast, but yeah. Um, but someone who's doing a lot of work to develop, um, I think he's working on like this little spectrometer that a customer could take in if they wanted to, and like, do a little, uh, um, you know, care, like, take a carrot and be able to measure its nutrient density.

Uh, and to me, I think that's really, um, you know, health benefits and be able for consumers to really see that nutrient density is going to be something that has a lot of power to drive more consumers to be looking this direction. Yeah, we've talked a fair amount about the industrial system, and I'm curious, is there anything that stands out to you that you've learned?

About conventional ag that you're just, you were shocked to have heard about, whether it's like the amount of chemical usage or, you know, how the processing facilities are run. Are there any things that stand out to you as just things that kind of just get glossed over as part of being normal parts of the conventional system that you're just like this, people need to know about this.

Yeah, I think, um, so a couple of things, one is on the farmer side. Um, you know, I've. If you, um, I've read a couple of books about the, uh, the poultry production model, not product, like the poultry, the structure that farmers are in, in the poultry system, where they're essentially like indentured servants, where, you know, I have friends whose parents [00:06:00] are, you know, were poultry farmers.

And so, you know, this is, I'm getting this firsthand too, where they get these, you know, they find these farmers that don't have money, they have land, so they're land rich cash poor. And they help those farmers get access to capital and sort of promise them a certain level of income. And they, um, they get, you know, a group of farmers in the community together to go into debt, to get chicken houses on their farm.

Uh, and then they, um, the way they, they, and so the farmers don't own, they own that the chicken house. But they don't own the chickens or the feed that the chickens are eating. All right. And so the way they incentivize these farmers to get good performance is they actually pit say 10 farmers in the community against each other, where the farmer on top gets paid.

You know, they, they come out pretty good. The farmer on the bottom is barely eaten by. All right. And so. That system that it's called a tournament system. And, you know, if you get a bad batch of chicks or you upset someone at the feed mill and they don't give you a good feed, uh, and there's been stories of that.

Uh, and, or if you try to push back on your contract, they, they keep, they try to keep you in debt too, during that. So you don't have any leverage, right. And. That system tears communities apart and takes a lot of folks and just, you know, it's just an absolute struggle to make a living doing that. Some farmers do okay, the ones at the top, you know, but the ones that are, you know, it's just a, it's a pretty, um, Pretty divisive model, uh, and that sort of indentured servitude around they're under, they're in debt their entire, you know, their entire lives, uh, as they mean, because as soon as you get to a place where you paid [00:07:00] off the improvements you've made on your chicken house, they come back and, Hey, here's a new round of improvements you got to make.

If you want us to re up your contract, right. That that's one thing that I is just such a, um, um, you know, it just, it's extractive. Just extracting, um, you know, the, uh, the, the social capital, the, uh, the resources from these rural communities in a way that is then driving, you know, and all the profits are going to the executives and the shareholders of these, you know, these companies.

So, yeah, it's hard for me to not think that there, there's some level of nefarious action behind that. It just seems like they're weaponizing financing to, they are. Yes. extract work and labor out of people who obviously They have the assets, they have the skillset, but they don't have the cash to get, you know, to, to go buy the equipment and buy the, the animals.

So, yeah. And that's one reason why we're so committed to this, like, like cut out the middlemen, let the farmers in the custom, like, Buy direct from the farmer. Like that's, you know, so we have a very short supply chain. We're, you know, the, the, like, you know, we own part of the processing plant. Um, you know, if, if, if our company makes profits, those go back to the farmers.

We're actually looking at a model where how do we give profits in ownership to some of, to the processing employees that process the, you know, the chickens that, or the, the beef that we send in. So, yeah. You know, we want to see a model where the, uh, you know, is a really short supply chain, you cut out the middlemen customers are buying as direct from the farmer as possible.

And then, uh, the profits of that business are going back to the farmers and the employees that are working in those, in those food businesses. So do you think about the legacy financial model [00:08:00] and just like, you know, How it is relatively easy to get that as a, you know, farmer and, or, you know, access to capital isn't necessarily the biggest challenge.

And, you know, that does impose certain limitations on how farmer is going to operate their land. And the ability to actually be resilient during hard times is obviously encumbered by having debt on some of the assets that you own. So I'm curious. Do you think that there's a model that we can start thinking about in the food system where we kind of think about the financing differently?

Because, you know, I'm yes, yes, yes, yes. So, um, this is 1 direction. We're also looking at down the road to is, um, again, like, the. Uh, cut out the middleman. I think I would love to see consumers financing these businesses. So you take, um, uh, organic Valley. All right. So they're a co op of a farmer co op and they have gone out and they have offered, uh, what's called preferred stock.

It's essentially like debt. It's non voting stock, but it's a structure where they've been able to offer that to their customers to invest in that business. Uh, and so that's, you know, something that. Yeah. We see on the horizon is how do we get our customer stakeholders. To invest in this business, invest in our farmers so that, you know, and that, that just creates such a win win outcome, uh, because the customers can get a return on that incentivizes them to keep buying from, uh, the, uh, the.

You know, the grassroots and the supporting the farmers they've invested in. And, you know, that's something that I would love to see more and more of is a way to, to, you know, go outside the traditional financing model and do something like that, that is really going to create a more resilient versus [00:09:00] extractive system there because, um, You know, this is no one's going to get rich in the agricultural space.

I mean, you know, well, the people that do, uh, are typically, you know, at the, their executives at Tyson, or they are, you know, own, you know, a huge, you know, centralized processing company or whatever. Um, but the reality is, is that we all like nothing happens that agriculture, if we don't have food, you can't make computers, you can't, you know, make music, you can't like run a city.

And, uh, and so. You know, we need to find ways, you know, this, this extractive model that is trying to concentrate wealth and power at, uh, you know, with a select few executives and shareholders is really, uh, something that I see as one of the underlying things that we're trying to like turn on its head through.

Different ownership, creative ownership models where actually the farmers own the business that's selling to the customer or and the processing employees own the business that's selling to the customers and the financing of that entity is coming from the customers that are supporting that so they're, you know, they're helping ensure that They have that supply of food.

They have that resilient food system. So that to me is where I see a creative financing and ownership models that, um, really, um, you know, decouple like rich people having all the power in a company. Uh, and, uh, and so, um, anyway, that's the definitely Something that's very, very important to us and pop up line.

So, how do you guys, um, how do you think about farm subsidies just and how it kind of plays into the bigger picture because clearly it steers a lot of the incentives within the industry and how people operate. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, it's a, um, That's a great question. I think there's, um, there is a place for [00:10:00] the government to help invest in the food system.

Right. Um, but I think, you know, you know, ownership models and creative financing, those are something that clearly I've got some passion around. I also have some passion around, you know, getting money out of politics, because I think there's a lot of the subsidies go to, uh, You know, subsidizing a food system that is, uh, going the wrong direction, in my opinion.

And so, um, I think, you know, I'm all for some sort of, you know, subsidies that help incentivize. So this, this funding that helped come out, came out and supported the, um, you know, the processing, this, the small independent processors. That's really powerful to rural communities. It's really important to building a more resilient, decentralized food system.

Um, but subsidies to support like the production of ethanol, of, of us to grow corn to then make ethanol out of. That's absolutely ridiculous and counterproductive to, you know, a long term future for our country in our world. And so, um, you know, I think that, uh, ultimately it's, you know, like that's where our, you know, voting with your fort, you know, electing politicians that really support a, uh, um, a more regenerative agriculture model that's going to actually help fight, you know, The biggest challenges that our world has like climate change, uh is is super important.

So Yeah, it's um, it's great hearing you say that I I think you know, it's really easy to Just get lost in kind of the Just narrative around food and not really see the big picture of like who's driving A lot of these actions, and it typically is led by money and the government should play a [00:11:00] role in securing the food system and, um, in some ways, you know, promoting the right incentives.

But, um, you know, I think from what I've seen, it seems like a lot of the incentives that are currently in place kind of drive. really drive more of the negative outcomes that we're talking about in the conventional system. Yes. I, I definitely agree with you there. And I think that, uh, I'd love to see it like nudging, you know, the food system, the right direction.

Um, I don't think it's nudging, you know, it's not nudging hard enough in my, in my opinion. And really, I, like, I've, you know, increasingly lost faith in our political system, uh, and, you know, where my faith is, is in the consumers, the consumers to drive change here. Um, and, uh, and so, um, you know, I think that's really, uh, Um, that's really where my where I get the most hope is consumers really wanting a different type of food system and helping educate.

And, you know, that'll drive politicians to do different things too. Um, but, uh, but right now there's just such an entrenched, um, you know, lobbying effort. And, you know, such a powerful lobbying effort from the big ag side of things that that's a real uphill battle to fight that there's some great organizations out there, like, um, uh, in cat, uh, is one of them, and there's just some different, um, uh, groups that help support.

and advocate for the, uh, you know, the small farmer for the decentralized food system. Uh, but that's a small, um, you know, it's a small, small voice in comparison to Big Ag. What's got you excited about what you guys are doing? What's, what's on the horizon for y'all over at a grassroots co op? Yeah. So for us, um, I think that, you know, as I mentioned a little bit ago, we are looking at some more creative ownership structures that will help drive, you know, [00:12:00] ensure long term that, um, that the right, you know, that we have farmer stakeholders.

You know, the food worker, the processing employees stakeholders have a, um, a stake in the outcome of this business. Um, and so that's something that we're working to, uh, sure up over the next year. Um, and, and then we are finding new ways to connect with our customers and potentially look at ways to, to raise.

You know, uh, have those customers investing grassroots so we can expand we're doing here. So those are a couple things that come to mind. Um, and then, you know, looking long term, you know, we do have, we work, our base of farmers are largely around, um, you know, Arkansas, Mississippi, Missouri and Oklahoma. Um, and, you know, our vision for the future is we would love, you know, we have some partner farm groups that are, uh, in, um, you know, on, on the closer to the coasts.

And so we would love to be part of helping develop a regional clusters of farms that could, and developing some of the things that we developed in our area. So processing infrastructure, you know, a farmer network, uh, that sort of co marketing together. And, um, you know, help develop regional, you know, other regions, uh, you know, versions of that and other regions of the country.

And so that's something that we have an eye towards to over the coming years. So I love it. Yeah, I really love what you guys are doing and think that your guys messaging is, is just so core to our beliefs over here at the meat mafia, just trying to improve the food system from the grass. grassroots up and um, I really do believe that the consumers will end up really getting behind better quality food.

Um, but hopefully it's one of those things that doesn't take too long because Yeah, we need it. We need it. You know, the, the, the world needs, you know, [00:13:00] folks to be buying from farmers that are raising animals in a way or, or Farming in a way, I mean, our farmers, like I said earlier, taking care of almost half of our country's land.

Uh, we need to help, uh, push them and support them, really, in, you know, adopting practices that are going to really create more biodiversity, sequester carbon, retain more water, just become more resilient overall, and that's going to be something that's going to make us a lot healthier as a country and as a world, and also make, um, Our rural communities healthier and, uh, you know, help, help us fight, you know, climate change as it becomes more and more intense across the world.

So, well, Cody, I really appreciate you coming on today. I think our audience is going to absolutely love this episode and just take so much value out of everything that you said. So really appreciate your time. And, um, for anyone listening, go check out grassroots co op. They're, um, doing all the right things.

So Cody appreciates you and thank you so much for all the work that you're doing. It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.