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Grundy Eunoia Wellness Center’s podcast dedicated to empowering parents and their kids as they navigate mental health challenges. Through insightful discussions, expert advice, and engaging storytelling, we provide the tools and support needed to foster resilience, self-discovery, and emotional well-being.
Each episode features two segments:
🦸♂️ For Parents – Practical strategies, expert insights, and real conversations to help caregivers support their child’s mental and emotional growth.
🌟 For Kids – Interactive storytelling and discussions centered around unlocking their inner hero, overcoming obstacles, and building confidence.
Together, we break stigmas, encourage open dialogue, and equip families with the knowledge to thrive. Because every hero’s journey starts with a conversation.
#CapesAndConversations #UnlockTheHeroWithin #MentalHealthMatters #ParentingSupport #BuildingFutures
Welcome to Capes and Conversations, the Grundy Eunoia Wellness Center podcast. I'm Adam Kotowski, clinical director. And I'm Megan Rose McMullen, MS. This podcast is a conversation about mental health and wellness. Okay, so let's begin with talking about Rebels and O.D.D. What is it? One of my favorite subjects. So, Oppositional Defiance Disorder. It's an external behavioral focus because that's what parents, that's what the world sees. You'll see a kid throw a chair across the room. You'll see a kid go into absolute temper tantrum. You know, I've seen this in stores. Or you'll see a kid at the dinner table just absolutely... lose it on someone. It is uncalled for from the standpoint of what you would call behavior. I don't want to say the word normal because I really don't like that word normal, but when you find like in the professional world and families and organizations, there is a code of conduct on how we have to act. I like to call them expectations. There you go. The expectations of the library, the expectation of the school, the expectation of your home. You got to be quiet in the library. Perfect example. Yeah, I like the expectation, but when you put a normal, normalizing thing, I think that's a rough, that's a rough go. It's a rough definition. And it also takes away individualism, where your uniqueness, because if you're trying to fit within a specific cookie cutter or bell curve, if you will, you tend to take away people's individuality. And according to the WebMD and Wikipedia, the Oppositional Defiant Disorder is a behavioral disorder in children characterized by a pattern of angry, irritable mood, argumentative behavior, and defiance towards authority figures. I got a question, though, real quick. How would you know, how would you get this diagnosis versus something like an autistic meltdown or overstimulation, PDA, which is, you know, Pathological Demand Avoidance. How can you kind of know the difference? Are they kind of all kind of encompassing the same? Well, you know, you and I have talked individually about this. I think mental health is a very large umbrella. I think a lot of things can cross over into a lot of others. Obviously, a psychiatrist and a psychologist are the ones that definitely will do the diagnosis, whereas us in the clinical therapy, LCSW, LCPC, you know, we have to go with that diagnosis and kind of go with what the DSM-5 says and research. But to answer your question, I think there's a lot of crossover that will determine whether it could be more part autistic or just that ODD. I think the big thing to talk about, and I love how you said it was rebel. I came up with an equation that I love. It's called R minus C equals D. Rebel minus a Cause equals Defiance. That's good. Right. You're talking to someone who grew up with ADHD and dyslexia who absolutely loves rebels. That's why I couldn't even define normal for you earlier, because I love rebels, but you've got to... You've got to have a cause and purpose. Channel it. Thank you. Channel it. Without the cause, you're defiant. And defiance is just not the person you choose and want to choose to be But if you're R plus C, if you're a rebel with a cause, you go into what I call the creative extraordinary, which is beyond the ordinary, beyond the quote-unquote normal, and you get into creative. Now look at the rebels who have gone beyond the creative. And again, I always say keep politics out of any of this, but you look at Sir Richard Branson, you look at Elon Musk, you look at Michael Jordan. You know, many artists who, neurodiverse, ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, they have the rebel with the cause, so the R plus C. So I love the rebels with the cause. Yeah, and before we move forward with that, let's just define a little bit of what neurodivergence is, if you haven't heard that term. Yeah, go ahead. What do you want? I think, I like to think of the, um, the divergent. Divergent movie, or books, right? so everyone you have this standard or normal right and everyone is supposed to fit in that but then as you become your mind and your brain and the way things are wired the way that you function is different right and you kind of go outside of that and some people have a lot of like hard time relating to that of like oh why did you think that or questioning um different things like that so it goes outside of the normal uh status quo right so that's i feel like that's kind of the difference like neurotypical is within the bell curve it makes sense you can communicate, freely um a lot of times uh within that standard and then the neurodivergence is on the out outside well it's it's outside the box but here's the thing who created the box right and that's why when it's so funny whenever i give presentations to schools or kids or, athletic organizations, you know i show them. IQ test for, you know, the nine dots, and you have to connect all the dots with four, basically four lines. It's on the IQ test. You create it with four lines, but you can't lift the pen from the paper, right? The only way you can do it is you have to go outside the box and that's it, period. But when you think about it, where they get you is those nine dots form a box. Well, the box was created, but in order to connect them all without lifting the pen, you have to go outside of it. To me, I look at, to your point, neurodivergence. I don't ever look at ADHD, ADD, autism, dyslexia as a disorder. Now, I know that, I know what the DSM-5 says, and I know what the therapeutic industry says, but if you really think outside the box, which is what we do, it's not a disorder. It's really an opportunity to get into that. Um, you know, it's, I, I dare I say a superpower. Right. Okay. I also think that neurodivergence is a term that takes it away from, I think maybe it might have some stigma too, but I feel like it's like reclaiming your power, right? Your superpower. Like my brain doesn't function just because I have a mental illness or a diagnosis or I feel things differently or express things differently. Uh, neurodivergence gives you that like sense of like superhero power, which is what we're all, all about, right? Right. And, and, you know, like I was pointing out earlier to people who have neurodiversity and you know what they do, I always look at the kid in the backyard with a superhero shirt, you know, um, what a Batman Superman, it doesn't matter. That kid, when they're four years old and they're in your backyard and they're wearing a superhero shirt, they can do anything. And the reason they can do anything is because they have this simple philosophy that I always say, it's a word, it's called. again. When they do something, it's like, all right, I didn't do it, but I'm going to do it again, right? They have this autonomy that I'm going to figure out how to do it. We lose that as an adult. And I think a lot of the things that we do in society kind of take that away from us, right? The critical thinking, the creative thinking, school is a standardized test. It's standard, and you have to sit in your chair, and you can't be moving, you can't be making noise because it's disruptive to this other learner. And then you also have work like that, right? Where it's like, everything is kind of standardized, and we kind of fit into this cog in a machine that kind of weeds that out. And when you think of rebels, they resist that. Yes, yes. And again, everywhere I go, I love the rebels. But I always tell them, I said, just do what I tell you, which is rebel with a cause. If you do that, life will be great. It's hard in schools because, you know, when you talk about being disruptive, there's two ways to be disruptive. Not to accept the answers as they may be. You know, that's all you gotta do is look at Albert Einstein's history, and what made him the creative genius he was, is he just didn't accept what science was saying. But the other thing disruptive is, is that you make a scene at school. Well that's the rebel minus the cause. Right. That's where defiance comes in. Right. So example would be, I recently heard that a kid stood on a chair and stood on a desk and then threw his chair. Yeah. One, just standard, that's unsafe. Right. You could get hurt, you could hurt another kid. Yeah. Okay. And that also puts fear into the other students because they could have gotten hurt. Absolutely. Also the teacher, could feel a lot of things in that situation too. One, not really sure how to handle a situation, fearful for their situation. Safety as well. for the other kid's safety conflicted because they understand that obviously that's not a normal kid behavior so something else might be going on something underlying kids just don't pick up chairs and throw them right um and so how do we get from a rebel without a cause to a rebel with a cause correct in this kind of i feel it's i've always said it's what i call your heart's mission okay everybody has a purpose and a mission here in life and only i always say this is only you fulfill that mission that's it now what it is i can't tell you i can maybe through questioning and and therapeutic measures pull it out of you but the bottom line is you just detect it you figure out along the path what your mission and your purpose is and when you when you figure that out you align and then it's like all your rebelliousness goes with this you know centrical force of absolute, Mission, purpose, and vision. And that, you know, like, you take ADHD. The superpower of ADHD, which is one of many, is the hyper-focus. When they are absolutely hyper-focused on something, there's nothing or no one that's going to bump them off that path. Period. And they almost get irritable if you do. Like, oh, yeah, I've seen that where, like, they're like, get away from me. Right. And I understand it. I've lived it. Because when I'm so hyper-focused on, you know, something that probably could take a month, I'll get done in a day. Why? Because I literally block the world out. And that's where it can be used as a superpower. So, yeah, it's you really got to figure out what that mission and purpose was. An example would be, like me, nobody, especially growing up all the years, you know, now there's more opportunities with kids with ADHD. But with me, there wasn't. No one would listen and understand me. So what's my gift? I listen and understand people. And I don't, you know, seek first to understand, then to be understood. I don't even. try to give my understanding until I really understand them and it's like dozens of questions right I've got a fully understand so that's what your purpose can be in life as you detect it through different means to like services you never got so I love that too so for parents who might be experiencing kids with whatever the reason they're rebelling against the system or at school against rules in their house or in public and we kind of want to push them towards a cause if they don't necessarily know their cause or they can't communicate because they don't have the verbal languaging yet or what what can we do to help parents kind of understand their kids more and this, behavioral issue well I think with any any advice I always give parents is always you you have to create an environment first that they know they can come to with anything and talk without you judging no yeah, Yes, you have your role as a parent if they do something completely out of line, there's discipline, there's action you must take, but at the same time, when it comes to something long-term like this, where you're seeing consistent, rebellious, defiant patterns, you have to be willing to have a heart-to-heart conversation with them and say, okay, I need to know why. Just, I want to listen. I want to listen to you and understand why you're doing this. There's a good percentage of the time they might open up to you. If not, that's why we've created the center we have. Bring them here. That's exactly what I do. I want to literally listen and understand, without judgment, without any criticism. I want to first understand why you do it before we can possibly implement something new and a more effective behavior. But once you can get to that why and understanding of why they do it, which they do at some point, I want to tell you. Because it's, that's what I call the ego, right? The ego wants to tell you why they're doing what they're doing. It's there. And they want to be heard. They want to be heard, correct. They don't want to be listened to without actually understanding. Correct, correct. I mean, with parents also, you have to definitely figure out the most effective means for discipline too because you can't obviously let them get too defined. Because then, you know, I'm hurt or possibly make a decision that could get them in a corrections facility. Right. Right. And that is not a place. No, I don't at a time there. You've been a part of that working with people. Population, yeah. And I feel like too, one of the things that we need to realize too as parents is pausing and listening to your kid might seem like it's going to take forever or like you don't have enough time because you've got to run to PTA. You've got to take them to sports, you have to cook dinner, you have to clean the house you have to make sure their homework is done. But in the grand scheme of things, when you do slow down, in the long run, it's going to pay off as opposed to... Because I think sometimes what we think is like, God, I wish you would just do this because it would be so much simpler. I just don't have enough bandwidth, I don't have enough energy, I don't have enough time. And so I think that what we have to realize is if you do do that for them, it might be, maybe a 20-minute conversation. It usually doesn't last much more than that. And the more that that happens, the sooner, the quicker, the more vocabulary they have, the more framework they have, the more that they'll be able to communicate exactly what they're trying. They're going to have to build that trust, make that safe. And I know that we get rushed because that is the... Society also goes back to the crushing that soul part of us, where you have all these things. Society makes us go... go go on to the next thing we don't have time to slow down and kids tend to be on a slower time frame than us a lot of times and it actually doesn't take too long to slow down and I think that that's an important thing when you're coming to a point with a kid that's kind of rebelling against systems and stuff like that. I also think too a good strategy that I've seen is asking them like well do you think what do you think of good consequences for doing that what do you think and they'll tell you I mean they don't and they don't they're not lying about it so and then a lot of times they end up being like oh because they finally get that like I don't know permission to reflect a little bit. like oh you're right like now that I think about that so I would say there's truth in what you say I would also say however that depends on how far on the defiance path they are. That is true. Because if there are certain kids that you work with that when they are so tipped to the other side of the scale of defiance that, well, you know, I shouldn't get a punishment. Oh yeah. Hold on, it's not how it works. And I also, I think too, there's like, we can also, I think sometimes too, we can also use different terminology that helps. Like for me, punishment is kind of, I mean, it's necessary sometimes but I think that we have course corrections, which I like to call, which are like, instead of constructive criticism, like I know who you are, so you're going in this wrong direction, as like the captain of the ship, I'm gonna try to steer you back on the cause, back to the cause, and see what we can do from there before it gets a little too like out there. But ultimately you're right. I mean, you're gonna have to find a good punishment or like consequence, cause I don't really like to use. There are natural consequences to a lot of things and then we have to, you know, do them whether we like it or not. Well, and with that, something that I always tell parents too is the, if you think about extracurricular activities, you know, you can even say military, you enlist. You are volunteering and enlisting in a sport, in a band, in clubs. When you enlist and volunteer, I feel that you become part of an accountable environment. You will be held accountable individually and to the collective, the team. So I think that there's a lot of benefit. Now part of that team is also your family, which is why I always start with the parents. Listen, ask them for understanding, not for judgment, not because you want to give your viewpoint on it yet. will in time because you are the parent you have that authority but you have to listen for complete understanding because that's your accountability you know to me you're the tribe that holds you accountable is the ones that tells you the things you don't want to hear right it's hard it's not easy to be faced i mean as adults we even have those times where a boss or a friend come to us and like look you could have done better absolutely and that doesn't feel good so how do you feel like that's gonna be with a kid who hasn't had as many much years of you know have um having that come to the table and having to take that in um when you think of um parents so the first thing that you listen okay and then if it's gone to a point where it's not that's not really where you're at you say come in here we're gonna have individual sessions to Grundy Eunoia wellness center what about the next step so maybe individual do you you, We include the family, right, too? Yeah. How would that work? It gives an opportunity for someone like me to be the detached observer that is there to observe the interaction between the child and parent, and on top of that, to understand what I call the 30,000-foot view, right? When you're in an airplane and you're flying, the world looks completely different. You need a 30,000-foot view when you're looking at something like ODD, or absolute defiant behavior, because I always say behaviors leave clues. They will tell you, in certain language or body movements, why they do it. And would you be able to teach the parents to interpret? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, how to interpret, how to read, how to get the alignment, what I call the congruity between what they're being said and what their body language is actually saying. But also just look for the signs. There are definite signs. Behaviors leave clues as to why they're doing it and what they're doing. And that's where the hold accountable can take place. Because if you don't, one of the things you think, what's the consequence of not listening? In your opinion, what's the consequence of not listening to a child? If I were not to listen to my child, that they're going to maybe find some other way to communicate. Yeah. Well, what happens to a three-year-old when you don't listen to them? They throw a bigger temper tantrum. They literally do everything they can to get your attention, right? In the psychological, as they get older, especially teenagers, if you don't listen to them, they might even take more harmful steps. Right. Or find... A community that does. Or a person. Yes. That's maybe not very safe to listen to them. And there you go. They will align with someone who is... probably not the best friend or mentor right that can guide them right because i think it's human nature for to want to be validated to want to be assured to be heard to be seen and as soon as one person even remotely listens to it like or feels like they are listening then you're going to latch on to that and even if there are signs that it's not necessarily the right person or the community to be right no absolutely so i think you know we go back to i think listening is really is step number one because they will they will try to get your attention if you don't and i think that's really important too to know that like it's not too late right like it doesn't matter how far they've gone if they're still here still present we there's a lot of ways you can build the trust back you can learn to listen um i think that that's really important too absolutely do you, feel like it is necessary like for people who might be worried about like individual sessions maybe the fear of the parent who was like what are they saying can you tell me like or I want to be in there what do you have to say to them you mean if a parent wants to be in the session with me yeah well you know. obviously I tell every kid that every conversation we have is completely confidential unless one of the three D's which is dangerous deadly destructive I said as a mandated reporter I have a obligation a duty to protect you so if I feel one of those three D's are in play then I have to alert the caregiver which is usually a parent to protect you but I always say that exact, line not line but exact communication with both the child and the parent present because i have to make it clear to the parent this is very confidential yeah and what they tell me i have to entrust to make sure they tell me and me alone right you know because i they have to have a space where they can tell somebody right and not to say, that the parent will never be able to have open communication like that correct you just have it it's gone to a point where someone doesn't feel heard or seen to the point where they no longer want to talk to that parent or whatever that they have to build that trust back up and they also have to have a space where they feel like they're going to be seen and heard correct that's safe whatever and then you can bring the parent in and then build that up together and it's not ever so far gone it's just you there has to it's slow like you don't just like go into a cornered animal and, grab them no you can't well and then and you also have to realize too i tell parents if it's something big my relationship with the parent is that they're going to want to talk to the parent role too is to get them to, understand to look outside the box to be able to go to their parents and tell them right and maybe how to approach tell their parents because what they'll do is i like it's almost like a role play because i want them to feel comfortable at some point saying okay this is what happened, this is what went down okay and then naturally i'll get i'll get feedback by observing how that and the parent work together and how they communicate together and then then i can understand all right here's a better way to my opinion as the observer the 30 000 of you this is how you should probably approach it you know and if you have the confidence and if you want to i can be in the room with you while you approach it with them you know and i think there's a lot of healing just from that alone because they finally get the courage to say this is what happened yeah i think that that is important too so we've got listening first and foremost slowing down building back the trust to make sure that if they've gone to a point where they're rebelling against lots of things and they're being destructive or destructive, to an expectation, that's necessary in a school setting or in a library or in a public, whatever, at home, too. How do you think that you can, as a parent, cultivate their individuality while also making sure they have consequences to their actions and their defiance? Where you don't want to, because I think right now one of the things that is said in general that, like, this gentle parenting stuff is getting out of hand where now kids are just, like, doing all the things, allowed to feel all their feelings and doing all these disruptive things, and they don't really have boundaries or they don't really listen or, quote-unquote, respect for their elders or whatever. How do you feel like, how can you do both? How can you have, let them be a rebel in their superpower, but at the same time keep them because sometimes kids might not necessarily have that cause yet. They haven't really found that, and that might feel direct, direct, direct, and, um, And maybe hard because they don't necessarily have grasped that cause yet. Because you might be a third grader and not really understand. So the biggest thing I always tell parents is you want to create what I call the word interdependence. I firmly feel that the kids today, and I've been doing this for 21 years, the kids today are coming through us to teach us a lot, sometimes more than we can possibly teach them. So we have to create that environment, that culture, where they can have that independence, to detect their mission and purpose in life, and on top of that, to create a new way of doing things. Because the world you and I grew up in is gone, right? I was born in 1975. I guarantee you the grade school and everything, yeah, the grade school is still there, but the way they teach is completely different because technology has taken over all that. So you want to give that environment culture of independence, but the interdependence what permits and allows you to work functionally within a team and a unit in a group. That includes your schools, your teachers, your classmates, your family members. So I don't ever, I never say independence. Independence is a part of interdependence because interdependence allows them to say, yes, the respect factor, the discipline factor of me still being, well, I'm the son, so I do have to listen to my parents, I do have to listen to my teacher, I do have to listen to my coach. I might not agree with them, and there might be a more effective way of doing it but I'm going to respect them enough on how I'm going to approach it and not be in a total disruption in the classroom. Albert Einstein would always just hang out with the problems more. That's how he found the answers, and then he would basically mathematically show the teacher you're wrong. Now, he wouldn't go on his face and say, hey, you stink, and, you know, I don't like you. No, he didn't disrespect him. He just said, here, here's the math. I just proved you're wrong. That's the professional way of doing it. That's what the interdependence comes in because you're working independent but with a unit, if that makes sense. Um, but the other thing is on the flip side of that, the parents do have the right and should enforce discipline and accountability. Well, you and I agree on that word punishment. I think that's the word that many people say, but I really think it's, it's a, you know, accountability and discipline. And it's, it's simple. I mean, you can't go to that party Friday night. And I don't care what tantrum you throw, you're not going. That's the truth. My right as a parent until you're 18 is I'm paying the bills. And that's what I tell the kids too, is like, listen, you're not 18. They're paying your way. But obviously, yes, you can get a job, but still until you're 18, you can't make adult decisions. That's just how it is. Um, once you're, you know, you get the total defiance, once you're 18, show us how it's done. We want to learn from you. Right. But the other, the other thing I would tell you is behaviors always leave clues. So how? You act individually. You know, I always was instilled from my grandparents, you say, yes, sir, yes, ma'am. No, there's some people today, don't say that. You make people, no, I'm not doing that for age, I'm doing that because I want to show you respect. You get the door for somebody, you know, especially I was always taught by my grandparents if a lady's going to the door, you go open it for her, you know. I say that little hinges swing big doors, the little things you do will make a big difference that they see. So we have to behave the way we would invite them to. Right, lead by example. Bingo. And I think one of the things that I really like and that I think we're going to talk about on the kids version of this podcast is like the superhero analogies, right? And I think like as a team, as a guardian, a mentor, a teacher, an ally, you have to realize too like heroes in every story have started off as a fool. Yeah. has started off where they have some kind of power, they misuse it, they almost harm people, and then their team comes in and is like, hey, we noticed that you have this really great energy and power. Come over and we'll train with you. And every single hero has this underground current of people who have helped them along the way to get to where they are because they're not doing it alone. So if you can maybe use that framework of your teachers are here
to help you develop your powers. If you need to learn to communicate if you're having issues with them. And I think the more we talk to them too, the more that people will have more of a framework to be able to express themselves. Because a three-year-old with their vocabulary telling you that they're mad, well, that might be mad. We know that mad is a secondary emotion, and there's a lot of other things underneath that. And I think that sometimes we forget that, like, that could be guilt or that could be shame or that could be frustration or impatience right and all of those things are wrapped up in just like one word and so as like as parents and as adults we have to realize too like I have 38 years of you know vocabulary and practice and a four-year-old or a high schooler only has that framework because of what they are and so we have to kind of build those with them because I mean you can't expect someone to just know you have to be able to lead by example be part of their team and help them work through those things right well communications of dances it's if you have to learn how to speak and to hear and what people understand is hearing is done through your eyes and your ears so people's body language tells them so much if you pay attention to their body language even whatever words are coming out their body language tells them more than actually that their words do so communication is yeah very fast, And we are always changing the way we communicate But our body language never lies because it just tells us what we're thinking purely by movements. So I feel with parents, with anybody, you have to learn to read their body language and make sure it aligns with the words they're saying. Because then you can pick up on something and you can ask them a little bit more and say, are you sure? Because it doesn't seem like that's the truth. Or it doesn't seem like, it seems like something else is bothering you. And when you start to recognize that, they realize it, and that's when they start to tell you. Yeah. Like you all. I think one of the things, too, is instead of asking them what their bad behavior, like, oh, did you lie, are you lying? Right. You know, I think the process is pointing it out, right? Like, being like, right now you're kind of restless and it seems like maybe you're not telling the whole truth. Is there something else that you want to get out? Right. Or what you're doing right now is manipulation. Right. And we call it. like that's not okay because you're trying to change my opinion and i've already set the boundary and i understand that you don't agree with it but that's what's happening right now and like you don't get to manipulate me for that right you know or like giving them the the, observe observation right um kind of can help being like oh okay well that's what i was doing because they know they know what it feels like in their body right they might not have the word manipulation or they might not have the thing but they know what they're doing is you know because, it's human nature sometimes you know well i mean manipulation is a different subject but uh or we can have an entire podcast absolutely but yeah it's there it's very true and you can recognize it yeah easily right if you allow yourself to watch the body language and pay attention and on top of that um to hear what they're actually saying with their body language yeah and maybe manipulation isn't the word, but you're like, trying to make me feel guilty or for or like I think that it all comes down to maybe just giving them some kind of framework to see like I like I know what you're doing I see what you're doing whether it's yeah acknowledging it and then giving them the space to make from there right well with kids who are very defiant they are heavy because that's what I bring down is I want to manipulate you to get my way so manipulation increases way more once you start calling oh yeah way more there are so many teenagers that I work with well and actually junior high too it's getting where I would say the culture environment that was created home wherever was towards way too much independence not, interdependence and because of that when you try telling them no they just don't understand that and that's where they flip to the other scale of you know weighing down the other side of defiance is how dare you tell me no you know no your parents can tell you no your teachers can tell you no that's that is okay um and then it's like they explode on you too and you know i'm prepared for that because i deal with it often but it takes time to say no no we gotta get you into the culture of interdependence because you have to work with people uh and more importantly is yes you do know a lot you're a very wise individual yet you have to learn respect because you haven't been taught that and they tend to really not and they subconsciously do it too they over manipulate where they will literally manipulate and i see with parents and then you have to bring the parents and say this is what they're doing and you're, a lot with it right because sometimes you have to give that same framework for the parents as well because they don't have they don't education is super important yes yes and the challenge with that is what i tell every kid who's extremely defiant at some point in my time with them is i have to prepare you for a world you're not prepared for because you manipulate or try to manipulate and try to be as defiant as you are in a career you're fired and you're going to try to blame it on something else or someone else but here's the thing there's a common denominator here yeah it's you 100 i see this in the prison population all the time where um there is this manipulation to get their needs met because maybe their needs weren't met throughout their, childhood whatever and they end up being like you need to do this and they become entitled they take and then that ends up having this criminal, thinking yes of the only way that i can get things done is if i just take yes or if i manipulate you into giving it to me or whatever and i think that that is a really, it's really interesting to see um because i do think that this comes back to another point which is i think that it's a fine line you need to make sure we have needs are being met that people have their self-identity that they have their autonomy while simultaneously having really good boundaries because there are consequences natural consequences to every action that we have as adults and as children and so um it's important to to do that and listen to that um i think for the last um topic that we're going to talk about this is like how do you think that you can um end with some of the biggest like challenges that you might face and how you can kind of redirect them any examples of redirecting, direction or figuring out, got the couple before, we have the listening, building back that trust, setting good boundaries or punishment, right? And then is there anything else that we might have missed from the challenges? Well, I know on the therapeutic model, we always talk cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, there's a lot of different modalities. However, I live by when the student's ready, the teacher appears. And when the student's really ready, the teacher disappears. It disappears because at that point where that interdependence leads you is you start to just learn things on your own very quickly. When you get the total ODD, complete oppositional defiance, it takes surrender. You're not going to get there right away because you're talking, you know, let's say they're 14 years old. They've had 14 years in that. build-up time of just defiance. You're not going to correct that overnight. So it takes time to really work with them, but sooner or later I've noticed, and I've worked with with a number of challenged youth for a number of years, sooner or later they start to realize by disciplinary action at school, with the law, at home, they just kind of emotionally say to themselves, why am I doing this? And that's where the surrender, and I mean surrender in a good way, it's like they just surrender and say, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to lie, I don't want to manipulate, I don't want to, you know, be completely the one that everybody's staring at all the time by my defiant behavior. And then it's like, okay, then they're ready. Then they're ready to really learn. And that's where it's a collaboration. between me and them, because they're like, good, you don't want to act like that anymore. Well, how do you want to act? Let's lay the foundation and let's create that. Yes. Let's build that. Let's build. Let's build the foundation of where you want to go from here. Because I always say, because surrender sometimes is rock bottom. Right. And I say, well, rock bottom is one heck of a place to build a foundation. So let's go. Where do we begin? Yeah. So that's, I think, a big key to it is that that emotional surrender. I just don't want to be this person anymore. Awesome. Yeah. And the patience of the parent. Yes. Patience of the parent. Right. We don't, we don't build habits overnight. We build them over years, over and over again. And so the same thing has to happen. We have to rewire the brain, the wires. What is the right phrase? Well, you have to, you have to rewire your thinking. Right. You know, which is. The wires that fire together. Yeah. What is it? What is that? That is a good one. We'll have to look that up. Yeah. The wires that sting. Yeah I don't want to misquote that one. Yeah, yeah. That was a good one. But no, it's, you know, your axioms, your dendrites, all the stuff that's firing in your brain, they do create new paths, neural pathways. You know what I always really like the analogy is if you're skiing on fresh snow, right, you go down and you go through the same, and then it becomes a rut, right, then it hardens. And then it doesn't matter how much snow goes on top of it, you will always fall kind of back into that same rut that has been taken over and over again. So if you're going to change routes, you're going to do a different habit, you're going to get off that path a little bit, but you're going to come back into it a little bit, and then you're going to come back out. And then longer and longer that fresh snow is going to build back up, pack that, so then that no longer has the, so like, it's kind of like, that's how it's going to be, walk the same path, that path that was greens and, you know, forest is now, and now it's all, all that is moved away because you've just created a new path, but it will, can regrow and it can change. It just takes. Well, and absolutely support that and agree. The other thing I always do with the kids who are like the complete defiance is hopefully one day they really do get to that surrender point. And when they do, I ask them very simple questions like, what's the benefit of being manipulative? What's the benefit of being defiant? Because I always wanted to say, okay, now let's look at it from 30,000 foot view. Let's get a bigger picture of it. Because if you use the benefits of why you were doing it for something good or something more effective and useful, you're going to become a CEO of a company that's going to make billions. Think about it. I mean, you look at, you know, 2% of the population is billionaires. They all are neurodiverse. So if you use that towards something more useful, more beneficial, which is why I asked the benefits of it, because then you get them thinking in a different way. Then it's like, holy cow. You know, you can. create a lawn care service, you might be like the best in the state because you use those behaviors, those reasons why that you got so defiant and why you created the closure to the world for opening up a new pathway and something more effective and useful. Nothing or no one will stop you. I say that all the time to these kids when I work with them. I said, you know, you could be the CEO of a company and literally no one can ever stop you if you use the way that you're using it to be the rebel without a cause. So there's that too is I give them hope by instilling the benefits from why they do it to where you can go from it, from here on out, present to future. Yeah. And I think that's the point of Grundy Eunoia Wellness Center is to kind of heal minds so they can transform their lives, that they can build futures, build futures for better, bettering the world. Yeah. be their communities right as opposed to um using their powers for evil right right well no that's where the interdependence comes in because you're part of the community too and that's yeah you you when you create a business that's effective you actually employ and help and donate and give back to the community so i think i think that's really great i think um ultimately if as a parent if you're having behavioral issues and you have questions you can always reach out to us we are available on Facebook and Instagram on this podcast if you have any questions or a specific diagnosis or anything like that that might be happening a specific situation that you might need coaching through or skill building you can always reach out we're here that's what the point of this um podcast is for um and you know going from there i think we yeah i mean we're excited about what we're creating here it's um it's a non-for-profit, collaborative care between a nurse practitioner and a social worker, social workers and you know it's it's an opportunity for working with mental health and you know I always say there's a difference between the brain and the mind. The mind is where we put our focus and our thinking. It's not tangible whereas the brain is obviously you can see in a science book or medical book where that is. So you know I was created with the intent and from the Greek Latin of beautiful thinking you know beautiful mind and I always look at as the fact of we want to redirect that mind thinking to something more effective and more useful. So we're excited about the future and, you know excuse me I would love for you to contact us and be a part of that and you know it's it's not just therapy it's also coaching, mentoring, coaching. Right and you don't need a diagnosis to benefit from mental health therapy etc. need it. It's just really about living, thriving, optimizing our health mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically. So thank you for stopping in today and we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Grundy Eunoia Wellness Center's Capes and Conversations. We are a not-for-profit 501c3. 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