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Host Callan Harrington dives into the strategies, decisions, and lessons that have shaped the careers of top marketing and growth leaders in the insurance industry. From bold moves to costly mistakes, each episode uncovers real-world insights that listeners can apply to accelerate growth in their own businesses.
Margeaux [0:00:00]: It's really simple to say, what do you want your logo to look like?
Margeaux [0:00:02]: It's a lot harder to say, what is the foundation of your comfort?
Margeaux [0:00:05]: You can't really get to the end finish line?
Margeaux [0:00:09]: If you can't answer the fundamental question of why are you here?
Callan [0:00:14]: Welcome to The Insurance Growth Lab, Where we go deep on the growth campaigns and strategies driving real results in the insurance industry.
Callan [0:00:22]: Callan Harrington founder Flashgrowth.
Callan [0:00:25]: And in each episode, I sit down with marketing and growth leaders from carriers and shirt tech and top brokers to break down one specific initiative, whether it's how they marketed a product, scale to channel or solved a specific growth challenge.
Callan [0:00:39]: It's no fluff just tactical insights you can apply in your own company.
Callan [0:00:44]: Welcome back everyone to The Insurance Growth Lab.
Callan [0:00:51]: I'm Callan Harrington, and today, I'm joined by Margeaux Giles.
Callan [0:00:55]: If that name sounds familiar, Margeaux was one of the early guests on that worked, and I highly recommend checking out episode seven to hear her full career journey.
Callan [0:01:05]: As a refresher, Margeaux is the founder and Ceo of IRYS Insurtech IRYS is a modular management system completely shifting the way agents, brokers and Mg see their clients in business.
Callan [0:01:18]: They are fresh off a twelve and a half million dollar seed round announcement which is an excellent seed round in this market.
Callan [0:01:26]: And Odds are, if you're in the P and c insurance space, you've heard of IRYS and Margeaux.
Callan [0:01:32]: For this episode, we get right to it and dive deep on the re rebranding they just went through.
Callan [0:01:38]: Rebranding is a subject that is always top of mind for most everyone on the marketing side of the house.
Callan [0:01:44]: And I think regardless of the size of business, it's one of those critical questions we all think about.
Callan [0:01:52]: Because it's an area where it is so easy not to do it.
Callan [0:01:58]: Especially when you start to ask yourself tough questions like how much will cost, how much time will it take what if we get this wrong?
Callan [0:02:07]: So for me, it was a no brainer to bring Margeaux on and talk through the re brand process in death?
Callan [0:02:14]: We talked about the details of the process, the tangible benefits they've seen, And what she would have done differently if they went through this again.
Callan [0:02:23]: You know, one of the most interesting things from the conversation was not just the external benefits they received, but the internal benefits and the impact that it's had on the culture of the company having gone through that process.
Callan [0:02:37]: This is one of those areas when it comes to rebranding that rarely gets talked about, and I gotta say, it was my favorite part of the conversation.
Callan [0:02:45]: So with that, let's it onto the show.
Callan [0:02:48]: Alright, Margeaux.
Callan [0:02:55]: You're back.
Margeaux [0:02:57]: Alright.
Margeaux [0:02:57]: Yes.
Margeaux [0:02:58]: I am.
Callan [0:03:00]: Get and we were talking about this beforehand and I highly recommend anybody who's listening to this.
Callan [0:03:06]: Go back and listen to that original that worked podcast.
Margeaux [0:03:10]: You are one of the first ones man.
Margeaux [0:03:12]: Pioneers.
Callan [0:03:13]: Early on, very early on.
Callan [0:03:15]: And so the one thing that I do kinda wanna ask to kick this one off is if anybody's listened to that, they know that you you founded multiple companies.
Callan [0:03:25]: Yes.
Callan [0:03:26]: And that's not just in the insurance space.
Callan [0:03:28]: Now you spent a long time in the insurance space, But you also found a companies outside of that and just to refresh somebody, you had a brokerage, sold the brokerage, you founded a consulting company within the insurance space.
Callan [0:03:42]: And then you founded a tech company.
Callan [0:03:45]: But now that, you know, this has been at a few years with IRYS and a tech company.
Callan [0:03:50]: What do you think is the single biggest difference between those previous companies and IRYS.
Margeaux [0:03:59]: Oh, so almost all of my companies, like insurance have been professional services based.
Margeaux [0:04:05]: They're, like, service based, like consulting.
Margeaux [0:04:07]: Saas is so different.
Margeaux [0:04:09]: It's almost like moving into, like, retail.
Margeaux [0:04:11]: Because you have, like a product and that product has to have distribution and even though that is the same one professional services side.
Margeaux [0:04:17]: There is an intrinsically different way to run a product company versus a professional services company.
Margeaux [0:04:25]: And side into that is the way that it's funded and the way that you manage go to market strategies and things of that nature.
Margeaux [0:04:33]: There's just totally totally different animals.
Margeaux [0:04:35]: So it's been really exciting learning how to learning how to jump full into the fire hose, you know, go into tech, go into Saas and then go into venture back.
Margeaux [0:04:46]: It's just do all the things at once.
Margeaux [0:04:47]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:04:48]: Yeah.
Callan [0:04:49]: No.
Callan [0:04:49]: I believe it, you know, my journey was ice.
Callan [0:04:51]: A bit more time on the tech side than I did on the professional services side.
Callan [0:04:54]: So starting professional services business, I had been part of a marketing agency before, which is where we brought on some of those people back into this with that insurance experience, but there was so much that was just different.
Callan [0:05:06]: And the go to markets are different, Although, I will say I think Ai is gonna make them very similar.
Callan [0:05:11]: Yeah.
Callan [0:05:11]: Because, like, it's gonna be way more relationship based.
Margeaux [0:05:14]: You're still a product.
Margeaux [0:05:15]: I mean, even though you're consulting in your providing services.
Margeaux [0:05:18]: It's still a product.
Margeaux [0:05:19]: But it's somewhat different when it's, like, tangible product.
Callan [0:05:22]: Oh, a hundred percent.
Margeaux [0:05:23]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:05:23]: You don't have as much leeway.
Margeaux [0:05:24]: You know, if it's you or a group of people selling services You've got a lot of the ability to change and redirect quickly as opposed to building something like software if you need...
Margeaux [0:05:33]: Change or redirect.
Margeaux [0:05:34]: It's definitely not his pivot on a dime as it was before.
Callan [0:05:38]: What you just said was not identical, but so Chris Kessler, his episode was just released because he went from strategy consulting to bold penguin, and he said, that's what it was.
Callan [0:05:48]: He said, when you go in with...
Callan [0:05:49]: From a consulting perspective, you can throw out almost anything.
Margeaux [0:05:54]: Mh.
Callan [0:05:54]: When you go to a tech products, like, you have to fit that mold of what you're selling for that tech product?
Callan [0:06:00]: Is that essentially what you're saying?
Margeaux [0:06:02]: Exactly.
Margeaux [0:06:02]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:06:03]: And there's just a delay.
Margeaux [0:06:04]: If I decide as a consultant, I wanna offer a new line of business or product or Mh.
Margeaux [0:06:09]: Program, I can make up some marketing material and go, as opposed to a product, you gotta have to, like, build it it has to be tested.
Margeaux [0:06:16]: It it's just a much longer process.
Margeaux [0:06:18]: So...
Margeaux [0:06:18]: Yeah, It's it's a little different.
Callan [0:06:21]: What's been the number one challenge in that adjustment.
Margeaux [0:06:26]: For me personally, I am a very quick decision maker.
Margeaux [0:06:29]: We actually joke internally at IRYS that our band name would be hard pivot as a joke because they're I mean, that's just my leadership out.
Margeaux [0:06:38]: If I see something isn't working the way that it needs to, we change it immediately.
Margeaux [0:06:43]: I don't care if it's a hundred and eighty degrees difference.
Margeaux [0:06:45]: We're doing that.
Margeaux [0:06:47]: But that delay in, okay.
Margeaux [0:06:49]: We're changing a process or a product or a thing, and then we have to kinda go through these more formalized steps to get it into the market do that time delay is a killer for somebody like me who will stay up till three in the morning to get something, you know, shipped out.
Margeaux [0:07:03]: There's still processes is that you can't accelerate.
Margeaux [0:07:05]: You just have to go with the process and for me, that's been just brutal.
Margeaux [0:07:09]: Because, like, I'll get out there I'm like, I'm just gonna teach myself how to code.
Margeaux [0:07:12]: I'll just release this feature by myself to evening and never how that works.
Callan [0:07:16]: Well, what a perfect segue?
Callan [0:07:18]: Yeah.
Callan [0:07:19]: To dive into the actual campaign part of the episode, which...
Callan [0:07:23]: Users or listeners I...
Callan [0:07:25]: Users.
Callan [0:07:25]: I'm automatically back.
Callan [0:07:27]: Already back.
Callan [0:07:28]: I'm right back.
Callan [0:07:29]: So for our listeners, we heard the feedback, and it was love the show.
Callan [0:07:33]: We want more of the campaign.
Callan [0:07:35]: We wanna go into the weeds deeper.
Callan [0:07:37]: We wanna hear more about that, and that's been a big highlight of the show.
Callan [0:07:41]: Yeah.
Callan [0:07:41]: So we're gonna dive in early.
Callan [0:07:43]: And Margaret, we thought the perfect place to get the full breakdown was, and you just kinda touched on this.
Callan [0:07:50]: You said, like, I wanna make decisions fast, but there's some that I just can't make overnight.
Callan [0:07:55]: Yep.
Callan [0:07:55]: You just went through a re brand.
Margeaux [0:07:57]: Mh.
Callan [0:07:57]: So we're gonna dive on deep into that, where I would love to start on this is why?
Callan [0:08:03]: Why did you feel that you needed a re brand just to begin with?
Margeaux [0:08:07]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:08:07]: I mean, so starting a company, especially a start, like, you're at a true startup scenario where you're starting from nothing and you're accelerating really quickly.
Margeaux [0:08:15]: The change time from year to year is so drastic.
Margeaux [0:08:19]: You know, one year you could be at this place in six months later, you've got a whole new staff and a whole new product, and then six months from that, it's something totally different.
Margeaux [0:08:29]: And so to me, the brand, we kind of we launched IRYS.
Margeaux [0:08:33]: We said, like, this is IRYS.
Margeaux [0:08:34]: Will...
Margeaux [0:08:34]: The brand will come later.
Margeaux [0:08:35]: You know, Like, this is kinda how we feel about it, but will grow and evolve with time.
Margeaux [0:08:39]: And it's just that cycle the regeneration cycle and start is so compact.
Margeaux [0:08:45]: Right, as opposed to insurance, and the insurance side, it's like the complete opposite.
Margeaux [0:08:50]: Like, you have this brand.
Margeaux [0:08:52]: And this is what you stand on, and it just kind of doesn't really change over time because it's very narrow it's in a scope.
Margeaux [0:08:59]: But when you're, like, iterating as quickly as we were, the brand kinda goes stale.
Margeaux [0:09:03]: And so to me three years felt like an eternity.
Margeaux [0:09:07]: Like, a whole another company had evolved after three years, and it just didn't feel like where we were in our process.
Margeaux [0:09:15]: And internally, we called it the glow up.
Margeaux [0:09:17]: And I joke about because it's really more like the grow up.
Margeaux [0:09:20]: And you can see in the brand from where it started where it is now, it's a maturity.
Margeaux [0:09:25]: You can see it in its maturity cycle, and I think that reflected the company.
Margeaux [0:09:29]: So we felt...
Margeaux [0:09:30]: We gotta glow up.
Margeaux [0:09:31]: We gotta do this.
Callan [0:09:33]: What I love it.
Callan [0:09:34]: For any our listeners that don't necessarily I know my background, but, I was a revenue leader for over fifteen years before starting my own thing, and this was always on my mind.
Callan [0:09:44]: Always on my mind.
Callan [0:09:46]: And it's exactly for the reasons that you just said.
Callan [0:09:48]: I think they said in the high growth handbook, you have a totally different company every six months if you are growing at that You're really hard growth.
Margeaux [0:09:56]: Yes.
Callan [0:09:57]: Yeah.
Callan [0:09:57]: Exactly right.
Callan [0:09:58]: And I've personally experienced that to the team.
Callan [0:10:00]: So one of the things that's always on your mind is...
Callan [0:10:03]: Just the name of the company...
Margeaux [0:10:06]: Worry.
Margeaux [0:10:06]: Yeah.
Callan [0:10:06]: Yeah.
Callan [0:10:06]: It's exactly right.
Callan [0:10:07]: That resonates with me to the team, but, you know, one of the things that it always would come down to is rebranding a big project.
Callan [0:10:15]: That's not a small project.
Callan [0:10:17]: That is not something that you could say, hey, we're gonna get this done in thirty days.
Callan [0:10:22]: Like there's no way.
Callan [0:10:23]: So if you're saying, oh,
Margeaux [0:10:26]: I've said that.
Margeaux [0:10:27]: I think I might have said that.
Margeaux [0:10:28]: I'm like, whatever thirty days.
Margeaux [0:10:30]: Sixty days.
Margeaux [0:10:31]: It would be fine.
Margeaux [0:10:31]: It was, like a year.
Margeaux [0:10:32]: This legitimately took, like a year.
Margeaux [0:10:35]: Yeah.
Callan [0:10:36]: Do you think that that maybe had something to do with what allowed you to pull the trigger initially, meaning, like, because you only thought it was gonna be thirty days.
Callan [0:10:44]: Yeah.
Callan [0:10:45]: It was...
Callan [0:10:45]: Oh, I don't mind jumping into this.
Callan [0:10:47]: So like, we'll get this done in thirty days to hit to position ourselves or whatever that might be.
Callan [0:10:51]: What was a thought process around that?
Margeaux [0:10:53]: So it was very superficial.
Margeaux [0:10:55]: It was like, hey, this doesn't look or feel like us.
Margeaux [0:10:57]: Anymore, let's just re.
Margeaux [0:10:59]: I think we would have rebranded regardless of how long it took.
Margeaux [0:11:03]: And I think that there's different levels of it too because realistically, we could have rebranded in sixty days.
Margeaux [0:11:09]: We could have said logo, color slaps some words on the page, cloud being done a new website, we got a re brand.
Margeaux [0:11:16]: But when we got into that process, it was a decision that that's not the direction we wanted the re brand to go.
Margeaux [0:11:23]: As a company we wanted the brand to speak for what the culture of our company was, and that is so much more difficult.
Margeaux [0:11:31]: So much more difficult to do than choosing a logo choosing a color and choosing some font type.
Margeaux [0:11:36]: Like, that's a very different process.
Margeaux [0:11:38]: It's almost like we went through an entire rebirth of the company and not just the logo change.
Margeaux [0:11:44]: You know?
Callan [0:11:45]: Walk us through that?
Callan [0:11:46]: What did that process look like?
Callan [0:11:47]: So why was it more, like, a rebirth than just how you're presenting this just on the surface?
Margeaux [0:11:53]: Well, I think any good brand in order to get to this end result, And we've all seen brands that were used like you'd love the brand.
Margeaux [0:11:59]: And maybe not so much in insurance, but definitely, sometimes in tech and and any e commerce in retail.
Margeaux [0:12:05]: And the reason why is because in my opinion, there's this, like, intangible thing that connects to the essence of the company.
Margeaux [0:12:13]: And every other re brand that kinda comes out that's cookie cutter.
Margeaux [0:12:17]: It's like, You say the same thing, you know, it's very, kind of very broad and generic, and there was so much underneath the surface for us to get to the end result.
Margeaux [0:12:27]: There's a hundred different things we had to consider.
Margeaux [0:12:30]: The first was who are we going to ent to do the re brand.
Margeaux [0:12:34]: There was a whole procurement process before.
Margeaux [0:12:36]: So we knew we wanted to re brand, but it's kind of, like picking out a home designer.
Margeaux [0:12:41]: It's very artistic.
Margeaux [0:12:42]: It's like, you're not gonna go to, like, Joanna gaines to get you a modern, you know, sleek house.
Margeaux [0:12:47]: You gotta kind of find the right team.
Margeaux [0:12:50]: And so I think we landed on a team that we felt immediately connected with, but that team put us through, I mean, the ringer.
Margeaux [0:12:59]: And I appreciate what they did and digging deep and trying to get, like, what the core of what we actually were out into the open because eventually, that led to the design that we have.
Margeaux [0:13:10]: And if not, we would not have connected with it as a company.
Margeaux [0:13:13]: And so I'm sure you know, it's really simple to say, what do you want your logo to look like, It's a lot harder to say, what is the foundation of your comfort.
Margeaux [0:13:21]: Why are you here?
Margeaux [0:13:22]: That's a question that a lot of people wanna answer, honestly, some of them are we're here to make money.
Margeaux [0:13:28]: Some of them are here for an altruistic purpose?
Margeaux [0:13:31]: Like, we wanna change the way this process.
Margeaux [0:13:33]: Goes or, you know, for whatever that reason is, but you can't really get to the end finish line.
Margeaux [0:13:40]: If you can't answer the fundamental question of why are you here?
Margeaux [0:13:43]: What are you doing here?
Margeaux [0:13:44]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:13:45]: And that was so hard It's way harder to answer and I thought it was gonna be.
Callan [0:13:49]: Why was that?
Margeaux [0:13:50]: So we went through, like, the stages of grief.
Margeaux [0:13:53]: We're here because we were users and we were mad and we didn't like the market, and we wanted to do x amount with software and we felt unfairly and unjust charged for bad products.
Margeaux [0:14:03]: So...
Margeaux [0:14:04]: So there's just this long long list and it starts superficial, and it starts to go underneath.
Margeaux [0:14:08]: But at the end of it, we came because we needed to change fundamentally how a technology and insurance brokerage is in particular, how to, like, a relationship.
Margeaux [0:14:21]: And that relationship, when we dug under one level under that was what we really wanted to do was sell the right insurance to our clients and foster trust back with the people that we were trying to sell our products too.
Margeaux [0:14:34]: Because...
Margeaux [0:14:34]: We come from an insurance background not necessarily a tech background.
Margeaux [0:14:37]: So our dig deep was a little bit more than I think a normal Saas or normal tech company would be and that we felt deeply connected to our user base because we are our user base.
Margeaux [0:14:49]: So it was a little harder to get all the way down underneath, like, what are we actually doing here?
Margeaux [0:14:53]: And I think it was...
Margeaux [0:14:54]: If you look at our branding, obviously, were rebels, our archetype ended up landing in that rebel space.
Margeaux [0:15:01]: Bucking the status quo, stepping out of line, asking questions why are we doing this and getting to that mindset, but that was many levels of discovery sessions to get down to what are we actually doing here?
Callan [0:15:14]: What do those discovery sessions look like?
Callan [0:15:16]: Was that...
Callan [0:15:16]: Them coming in and interviewing...
Callan [0:15:19]: Them being the marketing agents coming in, interviewing you, how did they pull this out of you?
Margeaux [0:15:25]: It was a long process, and we made it so much more difficult right than it needed to be.
Margeaux [0:15:30]: But I think part of that was because intrinsically, we were not as a team all aligned.
Margeaux [0:15:36]: And so our answers to that were kind of everywhere.
Margeaux [0:15:39]: But pulling that out, it took many forms.
Margeaux [0:15:41]: There was, like, a lot of workshops so they come in and we'd have these...
Margeaux [0:15:44]: Fig screens or these kind of, like, fun interactive, you know, virtual conferences, and we would ask, real, random questions and answers and a lot of it was, what are you doing?
Margeaux [0:15:53]: Why do you love this?
Margeaux [0:15:54]: What do you like building just that kind of stuff.
Margeaux [0:15:57]: And then on top of that internally, the executive team at IRYS had many sessions and not to, like, go into too much detail.
Margeaux [0:16:06]: But when I tell you that there was lighting happening, all of us had very different opinions on how and why and where if this should turn out.
Margeaux [0:16:15]: And anytime we have those disagreements, it was, oh, we were always at the surface level.
Margeaux [0:16:20]: It was like, about the color or about the word or about the thing.
Margeaux [0:16:23]: I kept trying to...
Margeaux [0:16:24]: As an executive team internally, go back underneath and say, but we're all here because we all agree on this berry basic concept that technology and insurance should have a different relationship with each other.
Margeaux [0:16:37]: And then we'd be like, oh, you know what?
Margeaux [0:16:38]: You're right.
Margeaux [0:16:38]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:16:39]: We all actually believe that, Now, let's not fight it all the font.
Margeaux [0:16:42]: Size.
Margeaux [0:16:42]: But do you know what Mean?
Callan [0:16:44]: So how did you get to those?
Callan [0:16:46]: Some of those final decisions on the specifics.
Callan [0:16:48]: Did you have to go in and just say, look, at the end of the day, on I'm the Ceo, this is what we're doing?
Margeaux [0:16:54]: Oh, dare you Or
Callan [0:16:57]: was it that you just continue to have these conversations until people kinda settled on...
Callan [0:17:04]: Or, like, you drew consensus to come with what that was.
Margeaux [0:17:08]: Well, consensus to me is intrinsically important to our company.
Margeaux [0:17:11]: I don't govern.
Margeaux [0:17:13]: I don't rural by dictatorship, it's very important to me that are fundamental, like, founding members of IRYS, they all kind of come together and have that similar need and want.
Margeaux [0:17:24]: And so I think I probably went too collaborative, because I I just love...
Margeaux [0:17:29]: I love the energy of collaborating and building and creating.
Margeaux [0:17:32]: It's like who I am.
Margeaux [0:17:33]: And so getting in a room and having all those voices and everything was wonderful.
Margeaux [0:17:36]: It's therapeutic, we all kinda got to see where we all are coming from.
Margeaux [0:17:39]: But there came a point where it was, like, okay.
Margeaux [0:17:43]: What now we're just beating the dead horse.
Margeaux [0:17:44]: We all know where we stand on it, and, ultimately, we have to have a decision maker and so I took the responsibility of making the final decision.
Margeaux [0:17:51]: And one of the things that I constantly had to remind my team is brand and voice and messaging, you cannot look at these things in silos.
Margeaux [0:18:01]: It's a grouping of things.
Margeaux [0:18:03]: It's the color, plus the typo plus the logo plus the message plus everything.
Margeaux [0:18:09]: And so not every part of every part of that is gonna be your most favorite thing.
Margeaux [0:18:15]: Right?
Margeaux [0:18:15]: Like, I loved this logo, but did the logo make context in the larger brand, not as well as a logo that I...
Margeaux [0:18:22]: That I had is a second choice.
Margeaux [0:18:23]: So I constantly, one, I, guess, I had to come in and make final decisions that not everybody loved.
Margeaux [0:18:28]: But two, I had to look at it holistically and not individually.
Margeaux [0:18:34]: Because the brand is a group of...
Margeaux [0:18:36]: Emotion.
Margeaux [0:18:38]: Right?
Margeaux [0:18:38]: And so, like, again, it's just like you can't nit pick on a type form or a size or a color if it holistically doesn't make sense as part of the brand.
Callan [0:18:46]: So you got to the point where you went through all these discovery exercises.
Callan [0:18:51]: You, one of the things that in our conversations you've talked about was that you weren't expecting was the impact that those discussions had internally.
Callan [0:19:00]: Yeah.
Callan [0:19:01]: You give us some examples of that?
Margeaux [0:19:03]: Un culture.
Margeaux [0:19:03]: A good example of highlighting why this is important.
Margeaux [0:19:06]: We didn't exercise early on in the re brand where we basically just gave very little information to our employees and said, what is IRYS?
Margeaux [0:19:13]: Not how do you feel about, like, just what is IRYS?
Margeaux [0:19:16]: And we asked them with with no context no minimum word count just write us back and slack, What does that mean?
Margeaux [0:19:23]: And we tell a story because it was so wildly different from employee to employee in length in description, some of them talked about the text.
Margeaux [0:19:34]: Some of them talked about the underlying culture.
Margeaux [0:19:36]: Some of them talked about the insurance industry in general.
Margeaux [0:19:38]: So that indication to me was, okay.
Margeaux [0:19:41]: We are not aligned internally on the basics of what IRYS is, and there's no way that a branding company, is gonna get the result if we don't even understand the result together.
Margeaux [0:19:54]: And so for us, it was, like, we went through these exercises and we tried to get people on the same page, and we tried to get the message of what we were doing and why we were doing it.
Margeaux [0:20:02]: A little bit more cohesive.
Margeaux [0:20:04]: And from there, kind of Domino's fell into place.
Margeaux [0:20:06]: Right?
Margeaux [0:20:07]: That everybody kind of got...
Margeaux [0:20:08]: Okay.
Margeaux [0:20:08]: We understand.
Margeaux [0:20:09]: And Yeah.
Margeaux [0:20:10]: The biggest thing that the branding company did for us that I think was really important was something they call, and I'll I'll link them.
Margeaux [0:20:17]: We can link them in the chat if they want, but an idea worth rallying around, which is basically a sentence about you, whether it's the company whether it's gonna be external a slogan or if it's really internal.
Margeaux [0:20:28]: And we took this so seriously, like, we had seventeen iterations of what our rally was really.
Margeaux [0:20:34]: But we ultimately settled on step out of line.
Callan [0:20:38]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:20:38]: And step out of line really encompassed what the culture of IRYS was gonna be.
Margeaux [0:20:44]: Not just because we were stepping out of line and we were getting out of the rat race and saying we're gonna something different.
Callan [0:20:50]: Yep.
Margeaux [0:20:50]: But, like, internally, when we're meeting with staff members or we're having collaborative discussions that we're designing the software.
Margeaux [0:20:55]: There is no scenario in which we don't encourage people to step out something of the way that they're typically thinking and throw some crazy idea against the wall.
Margeaux [0:21:05]: And so for us, once we had the understanding of what IRYS was and we had this idea this riley cry, it we became a lot easier to figure out what the colors and typo were because it just made a lot of sense from there on.
Callan [0:21:18]: Yeah.
Callan [0:21:18]: It kinda greased the wheels to be able to get the design elements in place.
Callan [0:21:21]: Is that right?
Margeaux [0:21:22]: We had so many good rally crises.
Margeaux [0:21:23]: There was, like, leave your mark, step out line, set truth free.
Margeaux [0:21:28]: I mean, there were so many sense good ones, but, ultimately, the rebel attitude of just not wanting to accept status quo for the sake of status quo was what we ended up landing on.
Callan [0:21:40]: So you go through this discovery process.
Callan [0:21:42]: You get all the design assets, the brand guidelines, the color palettes, the logos and everything else through...
Callan [0:21:50]: I'm curious about before we kinda get to what was your process for getting the actual brand out was, did you think about the name?
Callan [0:21:58]: And in full disclosure, we're going through this internally, and I'm keeping the name.
Callan [0:22:05]: I don't went out just be honest.
Callan [0:22:06]: I don't even love our name.
Callan [0:22:08]: It's the reality.
Callan [0:22:08]: A lot of people like the name, but I'm nothing I dislike the name.
Callan [0:22:12]: I actually do.
Callan [0:22:13]: I don't have this deep personal attachment to it.
Callan [0:22:16]: And so we're doing something very similar to what you did?
Callan [0:22:19]: What was the ultimate decision around that?
Callan [0:22:21]: Or actually, could you walk us do that process?
Margeaux [0:22:24]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:22:24]: I mean, so IRYS...
Margeaux [0:22:26]: I did love the name IRYS.
Margeaux [0:22:28]: It did have some meaning to us.
Margeaux [0:22:30]: It's kind of we decided on it.
Margeaux [0:22:32]: You know, I think we might have talked about this before, but IRYS is the Greek goddess of Olympus who delivers messages between the gods and and mortal men.
Margeaux [0:22:41]: So to...
Margeaux [0:22:41]: Us that felt very apr proposed to what we were trying to accomplish with IRYS.
Margeaux [0:22:45]: So we had an emotional attachment to the name, but, honestly, when you run a a, like, everything is tied to your Urls, the undertaking of changing the name was just us in my opinion wasn't worth the output.
Callan [0:23:01]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:23:01]: Plus branding is one thing, but, like, the name has its own life force.
Margeaux [0:23:05]: So like, changing IRYS to something completely not IRYS phil too much.
Margeaux [0:23:09]: Of a shift for us.
Margeaux [0:23:10]: And we weren't changing the company.
Margeaux [0:23:12]: We...
Margeaux [0:23:12]: Like I said, we were glowing up.
Margeaux [0:23:13]: We were growing up.
Margeaux [0:23:14]: We weren't necessarily pivoting.
Margeaux [0:23:15]: And so it felt like, you know, if you went a really massive shift in culture and a massive shift in your company, the naming seems like a great place to go.
Margeaux [0:23:23]: But if you're just head of gradually.
Margeaux [0:23:25]: I don't know.
Margeaux [0:23:26]: We loved love the idea of keeping the name.
Callan [0:23:29]: What I'm hearing is the name was still rooted in the core belief.
Margeaux [0:23:34]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:23:34]: It still made sets as a core.
Margeaux [0:23:36]: Yes.
Margeaux [0:23:37]: One hundred percent.
Callan [0:23:39]: And since you liked it, and it was core to your belief just to begin with, it still works.
Callan [0:23:44]: So it wasn't percent.
Callan [0:23:45]: And I know what you're saying, and the tech company even worse because, yeah.
Callan [0:23:49]: When you go to log in, like, let's use Salesforce an example.
Callan [0:23:51]: You're logging into.
Callan [0:23:52]: Salesforce dot com.
Margeaux [0:23:54]: You change salesforce dot com as a whole situation.
Margeaux [0:23:56]: It's a whole world.
Margeaux [0:23:57]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:23:58]: So...
Margeaux [0:23:58]: Yep.
Margeaux [0:23:59]: You better be really worth it.
Margeaux [0:24:00]: If you're gonna change your name.
Callan [0:24:02]: That makes complete sense.
Callan [0:24:03]: Okay.
Callan [0:24:04]: So you've got all the assets.
Callan [0:24:05]: You have everything how did you launch it?
Callan [0:24:08]: What that launch process look like?
Margeaux [0:24:10]: So, you know, I've have talked about this.
Margeaux [0:24:12]: I'm like a firm believer in creating frameworks and then letting people have creative control individuals being able to do creative things on their own.
Margeaux [0:24:19]: And we took that same approach with IRYS.
Margeaux [0:24:21]: They're, like, our marketing we have a a very tight framework where we say, okay, You know, we're gonna do an initiative.
Margeaux [0:24:28]: In this case, it was a re brand, and that initiative is gonna last a quarter.
Margeaux [0:24:32]: Usually, it's a quarter sometimes it can be more or less.
Margeaux [0:24:34]: And we're going to funnel that through our framework.
Margeaux [0:24:37]: We're gonna talk about thought leadership.
Margeaux [0:24:40]: We're gonna talk about education, and we're gonna talk about how this translates itself into our product.
Margeaux [0:24:44]: Those are kind of our core pillars.
Margeaux [0:24:45]: As it was really easy to run the re brand through that framework, which was a lot of discussion on the front end of the re brand as to why we re and being transparent.
Margeaux [0:24:55]: Like, we are rebranding.
Margeaux [0:24:56]: We don't wanna be, like, shoot.
Margeaux [0:24:57]: Here we are new thing.
Margeaux [0:24:58]: We wanna...
Margeaux [0:24:58]: Our clients and our future clients and our investors to understand why we were rebranding and why it was so critical important And I feel like that created that thought leadership piece, which if you guys have followed us on social you're part of our newsletter or email list...
Margeaux [0:25:14]: We started this a month ago, talking about what we were gonna do why we were rebranding.
Margeaux [0:25:19]: And we'd put dug into it.
Margeaux [0:25:20]: We talked about why we chose the colors and what the typo met and how it meant to us as and each individual employee was able to voice why they aid chose the thing.
Margeaux [0:25:31]: So we got really in heavy into the re rebranding instead of saying, okay, Well on, December one, it's old IRYS and December second, it's new IRYS.
Margeaux [0:25:38]: We really focused a lot on the rebate itself as an important part of it.
Margeaux [0:25:43]: And then we moved in from thought leadership into education and this kind of the stuff we're doing now.
Margeaux [0:25:47]: Like, why should insurance and companies or insure text, care about their brand?
Margeaux [0:25:51]: That's a deep question.
Margeaux [0:25:52]: Why would we spend all this time and money and educating people on how growing a company where require you to do these things from time to time.
Margeaux [0:26:00]: Whether it's rebranding or buying new tech.
Margeaux [0:26:02]: Right?
Margeaux [0:26:02]: Like, it's the same process when you get to a certain point, you have to be able to evolve.
Margeaux [0:26:06]: And then we move into product.
Margeaux [0:26:08]: So now you'll see, like, we'll start talking about how these new images and the new style we have is gonna manifest in the product itself and and how that...
Margeaux [0:26:16]: Sort of drove what our new feature sets were gonna be in q four.
Margeaux [0:26:20]: So if we follow that framework, it was actually really easy.
Margeaux [0:26:23]: I was able to hand that over to my employees and they had creatively leeway to do a lot of that stuff And we talked a lot...
Margeaux [0:26:31]: You and I have talked a lot too about
Callan [0:26:33]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:26:34]: The importance of asset libraries and just in general having these frameworks.
Margeaux [0:26:38]: So we spent time on the front end before we actually launch.
Margeaux [0:26:42]: And we actually delayed our launch by sixty days to do this.
Margeaux [0:26:44]: Was to go in and build asset libraries and all of these individual pieces so that our employees that are aren't even in marketing and aren't even in social have the ability to then show the world how they interpret our brand, but it...
Margeaux [0:27:00]: With it still beings within our brand guidelines.
Margeaux [0:27:01]: And we spend a lot of time on creating social post announcements post and and having this framework so that we have the ability to move fast, down the road, and we're not having to, like, create every individual asset, which is, like, frameworks clearly.
Margeaux [0:27:16]: It's like a thing that we have certainly and I were...
Callan [0:27:20]: There's no...
Callan [0:27:21]: When we started working together.
Callan [0:27:23]: And we were doing through the discovery, and you were walking us through your content process.
Callan [0:27:28]: One of the first things I said is was like, this is really dialed in.
Callan [0:27:31]: Like, this is this is a machine.
Callan [0:27:33]: This is, like, in my opinion, this is a very true machine.
Callan [0:27:37]: And One of the things I'd love to dive into a bit.
Callan [0:27:40]: You had talked about this, and you said, when we launch this, I feel our content got better.
Callan [0:27:48]: Yeah.
Callan [0:27:48]: Why is that?
Margeaux [0:27:50]: I think the content got better because the expectation was better one.
Margeaux [0:27:54]: When you go through a re brand, you put emphasis on how this now looks externally.
Margeaux [0:27:58]: But I will go back to the original the crux of this, which is when we became internally aligned.
Margeaux [0:28:05]: When everybody in the company, felt connected to why we were here, our messaging, our archetype, our visuals, it manifested itself externally with better content.
Margeaux [0:28:17]: And there's just no two ways about that.
Margeaux [0:28:19]: If I look at our content before, it felt very like, felt God Alright content.
Margeaux [0:28:24]: You know what I mean?
Margeaux [0:28:25]: Like, I gotta get some content.
Callan [0:28:26]: No.
Callan [0:28:26]: I'm sorry.
Margeaux [0:28:27]: You know?
Margeaux [0:28:27]: And and being truthful, like, I hated it.
Margeaux [0:28:29]: I I was like, can we this three rebranding it cannot come fast up for me.
Margeaux [0:28:32]: And that wasn't a did on anybody other than it was content for the sake of content.
Margeaux [0:28:36]: As opposed to having not just one writer, but now everybody in our company participate in this, the content is directly tied to a mission, and that's like so human.
Margeaux [0:28:49]: No one wants to write and I love our industry, but, like, it's a insurance technology.
Margeaux [0:28:54]: Like it's just not always exciting.
Margeaux [0:28:57]: No one wants to write bland material or make info infographics that there's nothing connecting them to the output of that.
Margeaux [0:29:06]: So we identified the rebel, and we identified that we were here to create a movement, the content creation became a movement as opposed to a thing that we needed to check up the list to put on the calendar today.
Callan [0:29:21]: You know, that's interesting.
Callan [0:29:22]: And I do get what you're saying.
Callan [0:29:24]: I didn't realize that connection.
Callan [0:29:25]: But before I was doing a ton of content on sales broadly.
Callan [0:29:29]: Like, broad sales content, and then it started to get into a lot of sales leadership because I was in sales leadership for a long time.
Margeaux [0:29:35]: It comes so bland.
Callan [0:29:36]: Just didn't wanna write it anymore.
Callan [0:29:37]: And I stopped.
Callan [0:29:38]: No wasn't right that.
Callan [0:29:39]: Yeah.
Callan [0:29:39]: And I was gaining a lot of followers.
Callan [0:29:41]: I was getting a lot of activity on on my post, but I found myself in this echo chamber when I was writing about things.
Callan [0:29:48]: I just didn't wanna write about anymore.
Callan [0:29:50]: Like, I wasn't excited.
Callan [0:29:51]: I so much of writing and content is just what's yours excitement behind what you're doing.
Margeaux [0:29:56]: But it seems crazy though, because that's like so voodoo it's fair...
Margeaux [0:29:59]: Like, because there is this, like, intangible quality, the words might be the same.
Margeaux [0:30:04]: But your intention behind them are different and therefore they're...
Margeaux [0:30:07]: Thousands.
Margeaux [0:30:07]: They're just received differently.
Margeaux [0:30:09]: And I think it was as we move into this, like, Ai because we talked a lot about, the, like, there's so much Ai now It's, like, almost it's impossible to navigate through social.
Margeaux [0:30:16]: That intangible quality behind it is literally the sole list.
Margeaux [0:30:21]: Ai.
Margeaux [0:30:21]: It's the missing piece of what you can tell is either written by by Ai or written by somebody who's, like, actually experiencing that and feeling it.
Margeaux [0:30:29]: And you can tell.
Margeaux [0:30:30]: And I don't necessarily know how to put my finger on it other than, and I think everybody who has ever scrolled through Linkedin because Linkedin is the worst as far as link.
Margeaux [0:30:39]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:30:40]: Coupons guys leader content.
Callan [0:30:43]: Oh, yeah.
Callan [0:30:43]: You can sure
Margeaux [0:30:45]: tell.
Margeaux [0:30:45]: I don't know how.
Margeaux [0:30:46]: And so if you guys have followed me at all, I had the same central crisis as you, and I was posting a lot, and I was writing, and I'm just like, I don't feel this.
Margeaux [0:30:55]: And so in order to get back into the groove, I did a one eighty, and I started posting about non insurance.
Margeaux [0:31:01]: Non technology, like, random things.
Margeaux [0:31:04]: Like I'm going through home model.
Margeaux [0:31:05]: And I was, you know what?
Margeaux [0:31:05]: Right now, in my life, I'm going through a massive home renovation, and this just consuming my thoughts.
Margeaux [0:31:12]: And all of my thoughts are kind of around this topic.
Margeaux [0:31:14]: And I'm just gonna talk about it.
Margeaux [0:31:16]: And I know it's not Linkedin I didn't learn anything about B b Saas through writing it.
Margeaux [0:31:20]: Or like back.
Margeaux [0:31:21]: You're not gonna increase your sales by reading my content, but it felt authentic and it's some of the most viral content that I've ever had or shared on that platform.
Margeaux [0:31:32]: So that's that intangible.
Margeaux [0:31:34]: I think.
Callan [0:31:35]: I agree with that.
Callan [0:31:36]: And I think, was we get into this next era.
Callan [0:31:39]: Right?
Callan [0:31:40]: This where the barrier to write quality content is that it's lowest it's ever been, because Ai is a good writer.
Callan [0:31:46]: It's just a truth.
Margeaux [0:31:48]: It's a good writer.
Margeaux [0:31:48]: Yeah.
Callan [0:31:49]: But you won't separate yourself from it unless you feel what you're talking about, And I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's, like, unless you're there, and then you're...
Callan [0:31:59]: And you have to be talking about a subject that you really care about in order to that.
Callan [0:32:04]: And I found that just with this podcast in general.
Callan [0:32:06]: Mh.
Callan [0:32:06]: Because it is so wired into the actual insurance space.
Callan [0:32:10]: I get more excited to write it.
Callan [0:32:12]: I get more excited to comment on it.
Callan [0:32:13]: So that makes sense to me.
Callan [0:32:15]: That makes complete sense to me.
Margeaux [0:32:16]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:32:16]: It's so funny to see...
Margeaux [0:32:18]: Not just ensure text.
Margeaux [0:32:19]: Also, like insurance companies, and we've talked a lot about this.
Margeaux [0:32:22]: This brand that we all have that when I say week because I still very much involved in insurance brokerage and agencies.
Margeaux [0:32:29]: I don't wanna...
Margeaux [0:32:30]: It's like static.
Margeaux [0:32:30]: You know, It's like, I'm client centric.
Margeaux [0:32:33]: And we're family oriented, and we're community focused, and we're here in your time of need and you say the words, but there's not a lot behind the words, meaning like they're not necessarily investing in you know, community events.
Margeaux [0:32:48]: They're not doing the little league football sponsorship anymore.
Margeaux [0:32:52]: So as we go through this process, like, I see in this long range this separation of companies that are trying to use technology or Ai to get the quick likes because you can do that.
Margeaux [0:33:05]: You can pump out a ton of content, you can get followers, you can get likes.
Margeaux [0:33:09]: You can sell products using this sort of robotic process.
Margeaux [0:33:11]: But what it takes longer, and it's much harder to actually create that content that true human centric content, but I'm telling you guys it hockey sticks once it hits.
Margeaux [0:33:27]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:33:27]: Because this is the new way to separate yourself from the crowd.
Margeaux [0:33:31]: And if you...
Margeaux [0:33:32]: If you follow the news and I'm like an Ai junkie, Open Ai is kind of toy with the possibility of opening up their own social platform.
Margeaux [0:33:40]: I don't know if you read this yet.
Callan [0:33:41]: I have it now.
Margeaux [0:33:42]: And is kinda...
Margeaux [0:33:43]: There's some spin offs there too, but Open ai was twin with the notion of creating an Ai completely Ai generated possibility social platform.
Margeaux [0:33:52]: Everything on that is Ai, and you just go and you interact with Ai.
Callan [0:33:56]: That sounds terrible.
Margeaux [0:33:57]: I don't know.
Margeaux [0:33:57]: Maybe some an older older lady of years, and I'm just like, I don't wanna interact with Ai.
Margeaux [0:34:02]: For my social content.
Callan [0:34:05]: It sounds terrible.
Margeaux [0:34:05]: It sounds terrible.
Margeaux [0:34:06]: If Ai is gonna help me get a coffee faster, if it's gonna help me get my claim settled, but, like...
Margeaux [0:34:12]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:34:13]: I don't want my art necessarily all to be made by Ai.
Margeaux [0:34:16]: I don't want somebody's opinion.
Margeaux [0:34:18]: That's personal.
Margeaux [0:34:18]: That's human.
Margeaux [0:34:19]: That is what's missing from that.
Margeaux [0:34:21]: I think it's underrated.
Margeaux [0:34:23]: I think that's why you're seeing, like, the Linkedin also social stuff kinda ebb and flow between really Ai generated content and then just, like, very, very Raw una edited spelling air, human content.
Callan [0:34:37]: I'll do it in text.
Callan [0:34:38]: I won't even lie about that.
Callan [0:34:39]: I will specifically put errors, so people know that this is dot ai.
Callan [0:34:43]: And it does pain me.
Callan [0:34:45]: I like, like, a gram loyal forever.
Callan [0:34:47]: I purposely do that now?
Margeaux [0:34:49]: I do it on Linkedin.
Margeaux [0:34:50]: No.
Margeaux [0:34:50]: I do.
Margeaux [0:34:51]: Oh I believe it.
Callan [0:34:52]: Absolutely.
Callan [0:34:52]: So Margeauxt, if you started this process all over again, what would you do differently at the beginning?
Margeaux [0:34:59]: Oh, I don't know if I would do anything different.
Margeaux [0:35:01]: Because I think the process and the journey.
Margeaux [0:35:04]: Like, again, it was ups and downs.
Margeaux [0:35:05]: It was a lot of deep digging.
Margeaux [0:35:07]: We would not have had the outcome that we got without the process.
Margeaux [0:35:12]: And the process was not straightforward, and it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't fun always.
Margeaux [0:35:16]: And there was a lot of back and forth, but I I genuinely believe that anything that you do that's worth doing is gonna have that journey, and I don't think that branding has is any different there.
Margeaux [0:35:28]: I think that's the same.
Callan [0:35:29]: Let me ask you this.
Callan [0:35:30]: What advice would you give yourself?
Callan [0:35:32]: And having gone through this now, looking back, how you were feeling when you were thinking about even doing this and moving forward or starting it, what advice would you give yourself?
Margeaux [0:35:42]: Oh, don't nit picking kinda worst.
Margeaux [0:35:44]: I'm such a niche.
Margeaux [0:35:45]: Like, I I want perfection on that all levels of everything.
Margeaux [0:35:48]: And I would have told myself you're gonna get there in the end.
Margeaux [0:35:52]: The end is coming.
Callan [0:35:53]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:35:54]: And the nit picking and the ob of perfection is not gonna change.
Margeaux [0:35:59]: My husband been Jokes a lot.
Margeaux [0:36:01]: We we talk about the concept of running in the airport if you've ever heard this concept.
Margeaux [0:36:05]: It's like.
Margeaux [0:36:05]: There's no reason to run in the airport.
Margeaux [0:36:08]: You're either gonna get to your flight or you're not.
Margeaux [0:36:10]: And your pace, your little one minute save that you're doing for running through the airport ultimately cumulative is not gonna you make or miss the plane in ninety percent of the time.
Margeaux [0:36:20]: So that's...
Margeaux [0:36:21]: It's a similar thing.
Margeaux [0:36:22]: It's, like, don't run in the airport.
Margeaux [0:36:24]: Don't over analyze every little piece of this because if you are doing the work, underneath, the outcome will be reflective of that work.
Callan [0:36:34]: Fun fact about that.
Callan [0:36:35]: I just about missed my talk at the El insured Tech New York event because I had to run because they're paging me over the...
Margeaux [0:36:43]: So okay.
Margeaux [0:36:44]: So you went And I actually
Callan [0:36:46]: I had run.
Margeaux [0:36:47]: I had because I did that one.
Margeaux [0:36:49]: I was like, I did actually make one flight because I ran.
Margeaux [0:36:52]: But most of the time
Callan [0:36:54]: Yeah Yeah.
Callan [0:36:54]: Point taken for sure.
Callan [0:36:56]: Margeaux, this is great.
Callan [0:36:58]: I know this will be helpful to a lot of people that are going through this.
Callan [0:37:01]: I guess last question I have for you on this one is companies of all ages, of course, think about this.
Callan [0:37:06]: Even some of the oldest companies that have been around think about this.
Callan [0:37:09]: When do you think the timing is right to do this?
Callan [0:37:14]: I meaning, is there a time where it's too early too late?
Callan [0:37:17]: What is your thoughts having gone through this?
Margeaux [0:37:19]: I feel like it's like any other big change there's never like, a perfect time ever.
Callan [0:37:25]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:37:25]: We did kind of move the brand launch around a bit to coincide with some of the, like, business strides that we were making, like, becoming generally available.
Margeaux [0:37:35]: Finally being able to sell into Smb, and not just enterprise.
Margeaux [0:37:40]: And so we timed it to release in that way so that we could build the momentum of not just the brand but then the sort of new phase of IRYS.
Margeaux [0:37:49]: So I think, you know, there is some meticulous planning in that case, but to start the process and to start going through the process, I just don't know if you're ever really ready.
Margeaux [0:38:00]: Yeah.
Margeaux [0:38:00]: Honestly, it's so funny.
Margeaux [0:38:01]: As it reminds me of, like, what I say to clients when they're, like, adopting new tech.
Margeaux [0:38:05]: It's a similar scenario.
Margeaux [0:38:07]: You need to shoot for end goal.
Margeaux [0:38:09]: If you have a clear end goal in mind of what it is you're gonna do, then you just have to go through the messy middle.
Margeaux [0:38:13]: I mean, there's no good time for that.
Callan [0:38:15]: Well, that's a perfect segue to wrap this up.
Callan [0:38:18]: Margeaux, thanks for coming on.
Margeaux [0:38:20]: Yeah.
Callan [0:38:20]: This was great.
Callan [0:38:20]: I knew it would be, and I appreciate you coming on and being so open and honest about everything.
Margeaux [0:38:25]: Always.
Margeaux [0:38:25]: And check out the re rebranding it's super awesome.
Callan [0:38:29]: Completely agree with that.
Callan [0:38:30]: I will double down on that statement.
Callan [0:38:31]: I hope you enjoyed Margeaux nice conversation.
Callan [0:38:42]: I could talk about branding all day as a one of my favorite subject x.
Callan [0:38:47]: You wanna learn more about Margeaux, you could find her on Linkedin in the show notes.
Callan [0:38:51]: Also, if you like this episode, you could find me on Linkedin to let me know.
Callan [0:38:56]: And if you really wanna support the show, subscribe to us on Youtube or give us a review on Apple podcast or spotify.
Callan [0:39:03]: It is always very much appreciated.
Callan [0:39:06]: Thanks for listening everybody.
Callan [0:39:07]: I'll see you next week.