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Hosted by SRPMIC Assistant Community Manager, Lena Jackson-Eckert, this podcast takes a closer look at the programs, services, and people that help shape our Community. From everyday resources to unique stories and conversations, we’re here to share what matters. So let’s go ahead and zoom in.
Before we begin, we want to let listeners know that this episode discusses a culturally sensitive topic involving our ancestors. Some parts of this conversation may be emotional or even difficult to hear, So we encourage you to listen with care. Hey, welcome to Lena's Lens. I'm Lena Jackson Eckert, one of the assistant community managers with the Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community. From helpful resources to unique conversations, we're on a journey explore our community.
Lena:So let's go ahead and zoom in. Welcome to Lena's Lens. Today, we begin a special two part series about a journey that took members of our community all the way to Scotland for a purpose unlike any other. The goal of the trip was repatriation. Repatriation is the process of returning a person, an item, or remains to their place of origin, bringing them home with respect and intention.
Lena:In this episode, you'll hear from two of the people who were on that trip. They were part of this team that escorted our ancestors home, carrying the cultural, emotional, and spiritual weight of that responsibility. They'll share what the process looked like, how the opportunity arose, and what it meant to stand on the other side of the world doing this work on behalf of the community. So let's get into the discussion. Why don't each of you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about maybe what department or where you're working at right now?
Su:k:Anianna Abchugik, Su:k Chu:vak Fulwilder, Council Representative representing District D. I'm glad to be here today and to be with all of you.
Lena:Thank you.
Martha:Good day, everybody. My name is Martha Ludlow Martinez. I am the NAGPRA coordinator for our Tribal Historic Preservation Office here within the community that is currently a part of the Cultural Resources Department.
Lena:Thank you. Thank you both for being here today. I'm excited to talk about your trip, but also to learn a little bit about NAGPRA, or the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. Martha, why don't you tell us a little bit about NAGPRA and how it applies to us?
Martha:So here within the community, we are currently, like I said, under the Cultural Resources Department. So under the CRD, Cultural Resources, there sits our office, the Tribal Historic Preservation Office, also known as THPO. Within THPO, I am then there the NAGPRA coordinator, or like Lena had stated, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. So this was an act that had passed in 1990, which gave tribes the ability to start to consult with different museums and entities that received federal funding to consult on getting the ancestors back home. A way for us to be able to connect with those tribes to bring it all back.
Martha:So NAGPRA has been enacted for about like thirty six years now. Just recently, the past two years, NAGPRA had went through some changes in the law. So a lot of that has changed quite a bit.
Lena:Good changes or bad changes?
Martha:I would say good changes, just because we had a lot of universities and other entities that were supposed to comply with NAGPRA find loopholes on why not to comply. So within the community, we then are the designated individuals to then consult with those groups. Then Because if you don't have that individual, then these museums could say, well, you're just from that tribe. I'm going to consider you as the appropriate official to talk about these things and just give them back to whoever, just because they said they're from a tribe. So within the community, we have that responsibility to take care of them.
Martha:So that's how we as an office, we're the ones who are designated to oversee those things. When letter and things come in, even though it may be addressed to the president, it gets sent down to our office as we're the ones to go through everything that they send over.
Lena:Okay. So do all tribes have a THPO office?
Martha:No. Not all tribes have a THPO office. So to be a THPO, there are certain requirements. You have to have this whole kind of application budget. You have to have the backing of your tribal council.
Martha:So some of them may have cultural resources office or may cultural departments. And that's what we were before being a THPO office, we were the Cultural Preservation Program. So for us to receive that recognition is like a whole application process, if you will, because that falls under the NHPA, National Historic Preservation Act,
Martha:which
Martha:was passed in, I believe, 1966, what gave the states that ability. So if they don't have a TPO office, that responsibility is what we do, which we oversee archaeological compliance and other things that fall into that, that goes under the SHPO, the State Historic Preservation Office. But when you have a THPO, the THPO are the ones to be able to look at those things and do it more on a tribal level. So not all tribes have one, unfortunately. And we recently just had our, I guess, be recognized as the THPO, we've only been there for a couple years, I would say.
Martha:I can't even remember how many, but when I first started it was CPP, the Culture Preservation, and now we're THPO Tribal Historic Preservation Office.
Lena:I think I remember when that happened. So it feels like, or it seems like it gives us a little bit more credibility to be recognized as a THPO office when we're getting these items back.
Martha:Yeah, so being a THPO has the archeological part of it, and what we're doing in consulting when buildings are getting made, things are to be found. But NAGPRA technically doesn't fall straight under that. So that's where the funding, even between those, we don't get funding for NAGPRA under THPO. So that comes completely different from it, and we can't cross with it. So that's where we rely on a lot from the tribes or grants or the museums that we're working with to provide that type of funding.
Martha:And that's where it becomes difficult for people maybe to understand the differences. So there are things I can and cannot do, even being within the THPO office, because of the funding sources and where those grants are. It does give, like I said, it does give tribes that credibility and it kind of helps them, but it also gives them a lot more work Responsibility. Than Yeah.
Lena:So if I understand this right, I don't know much about NAGPRA, but it pertains to The United States. So when things are in museums or found when there's construction or what have you, it requires those organizations to notify the surrounding tribe that they found or have something in their possession. But does it apply internationally?
Martha:No. So just as you had stated, NAGPRA is a specific law. So there are certain criteria that they must meet to be able to consider something. So we have our ancestors' funerary objects, we have our sacred objects, and what we refer to as objects of cultural patrimony. So the analogy that we use often is like, you think of the Liberty Bell.
Martha:The Liberty Bell isn't owned by the President, but kind of the whole United States. The President doesn't have the ability to sell the Liberty Bell at his will, but it belongs to the whole US. So objects of cultural patrimonies are kind of the same thing. You may think of it as like calendar sticks or something that one individual may care for or have the responsibility for, but it belongs to the community. Community as a whole.
Martha:Under those criteria is what NAGPRA have. But like you had stated, NAGPRA is only within The US. It does not apply internationally. Interesting.
Lena:So how did we get notice that this Scottish was it a museum or it was a university? Yeah. How did we get notice? Why did they feel like they even had to?
Martha:So it all kind of actually started with AAIA, Association of American Indian Affairs. So they are like a group association that has like a bunch of lawyers and groups, they're constantly helping out tribes to look for different people or individuals that may be related to their tribe. So they were really the ones to kind of look at that. We get notices from them about different things that are going on, including auction houses, which is very big in different countries.
Martha:Well, for this university in particular, they were willing to give our ancestors back to the community. So what AAIA had done is they kind of did a lot of the back work with that. And so what they had done is they had outreached to all of the tribes that they believed were related to these individuals that are there. There was this whole group. So they wanted to build this coalition and hoping that instead of one tribe doing this individually, that as a larger group, we would be able to submit our, I guess, letters stating that these individuals are part of our community.
Martha:So that's kind of what started all this. I will recognize that group, because really they did that backward. And us and Gila River were a part of that. And within our offices, we work pretty closely now because a lot of the notices we get, we just do a lot of joint consultations for things like that. And we had decided, well, hey, we'll And we had a very short window.
Martha:We have less than, I believe, a month to get the letter out, to get all of our approvals to be sent to be a part of that coalition. But the reason for that was because they then have an overseeing group that oversees that whether or not they want to approve that request or deny that request. And for a lot of them, they were able to do it a lot quicker because those museums in Scotland actually fall under government. So this being a university, they had a little bit more flexibility on what they were able to do. But all of that had to be done pretty quickly because once that gets approved or denied, I guess if it's approved, then there's a whole permitting process.
Martha:They have to get clearance so that they're able to leave the country.
Lena:Okay, interesting. That seems like a pretty big process.
Martha:It was, and I will say it was a learning process because we've never had experience for it. We had no idea what to expect, what was going on. When we repatriated back, we were the second tribe, at least from my understanding, standing the second tribe, at least in The US, that was repatriating back. A part of that being the AAIA, that group that's there, we would meet to kind of update. Once the first tribe was done, they had then did a follow-up meeting of like, hey, this is all that we learned from it.
Martha:We will also do that again post our trip to educate all the rest of the tribes that are trying to repatriate back on what happened, what worked, and what didn't work. So hopefully as we get going, we get better in the process and we're helping tribes out.
Lena:Wow, That's pretty cool. Councilwoman Fulwilder, how did you decide that you wanted to be a part of this? How were you, I guess, selected to go on the trip?
Su:k:At first, the council brought it up that we were asked participate and who wanted to volunteer to go. And at first, I didn't know, because I feel like I don't know enough to be a part of it. I just kind of felt like, I don't know, what is my role gonna be? But I did go home and brought it up to my dad, who kind of took part in these things in the beginning. And he told me that I should go, you know, and that it would be something that would be a good experience and something that we should be a part of, something that we should support.
Su:k:Did agree with that, you know, but the part of me that felt like, I don't know enough, you know, what am I gonna do? But something in my heart told me that it was important. It was very, I guess, humbling. And I felt grateful that I was able to go, you know, out of us three that did go. And so that's how it happened pretty much.
Su:k:I'm glad I did make that choice and I'm glad I got to participate and it was a very good learning experience. And I guess something that I think more people should know about, that it actually happened.
Lena:I mean, I can understand. It's not something we talk a lot about. And I know, I think more education is needed, so I can understand being humbled and feeling like,
Lena:What are you going to do? But you have that life experience that can help.
Su:k:Yeah, I felt like it was just something that each one of us took something out of and having gone to ceremonies before, gone to the reburials and not really taking part in the whole behind the scenes, but just being able to be there and be present. So I felt like even being able to be a part of this was to me a unique experience and a once in a lifetime opportunity. If I would have said no, I probably would have been shaking my head.
Martha:Oh my
Su:k:gosh. You missed out, you know, on something important. So I'm glad I did go.
Lena:That's awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about the process when you got there? Kind of, you know, who did you meet with? Just tell us a little bit about what your day looked like when you had to go to the university to look at these items.
Martha:Well, there was a lot of planning that took place before to try to plan out what our days would look like that was there. The first thing was just that there's a major time difference. It's eight hours. You don't really think about it as much. We travel a lot just because there's so many museums and places we need to go to.
Martha:But eight hours was the first for me. It was definitely adjusted. Even that, the long hours of flying over and then getting there at like, I think it was like 07:30AM. And because of the time difference, trying to adjust yourself, we had to stay up to be able to try to adjust to their time zone that was there. So that's, I think, the hardest part for us in the beginning.
Martha:And so we tried to give ourselves that day at least to get adjusted. But as we were there each day that we had a museum to visit, and then there's things that we had to do that was there to make sure that we were allotted enough time. And then there was two different museums that we went to. The first one we had to view what they had and visit people that were there. And then the next one was the same thing where we had that opportunity to kind of set up and there's meeting times in between.
Martha:We're kind of debriefing as we're going. And then as we get ready for the next one, preparing ourselves to be able to be in the presence of the ancestor. Because that in itself is something that takes a large toll on you. And so we had that, we had some of the pre meetings with those individuals, and we were very fortunate with the University of Edinburgh. When we went to go visit them, they were very accommodating, very understanding, and even one of the evenings, they had invited us to have a traditional Scottish dinner, if you will.
Martha:And for us, that was really great and something we were really excited to have, just because it's that cultural exchange of what we had that was there. Then the same thing the following day to actually conduct the things that needed to be done signing of the official documents. So there was some time in between to kind of prepare ourselves. First, still trying to adjust to the time difference that were there, but even culturally, you've got to think emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, all these things are really taxing on you. So you have to prepare for that.
Martha:As we're getting ready then to go ahead and come back. So there were some times for me, I do a lot of that decompression through walking or running. There was plenty of places for us to walk. So we kind of did that to prepare ourselves until it was the journey come home, because that was the real taxing part and the part we had no idea how it was going to go coming from a different country. It was kind of spaced out strategically in that way to give us some time to adjust, to be ready, that kind of window in between to like, okay, let's prepare ourselves until it was that to come back home.
Lena:So are you able to provide us any And I understand if you're not, but if you are, to provide us any details about what it is that we brought back?
Martha:So, we use the term escort. So escort's what we say when speaking about the ancestors or individuals. So we don't use the term like we're not transporting them, we're escorting them home. But who we did bring back were ancestors. And I will say there were multiple ancestors that we brought back.
Martha:That's who came back with us were ancestors.
Lena:Okay. Thank you for sharing that. How did it feel? How did that feel? I would think that there's probably, like you said, a lot of emotions, a lot of feelings, and having to prepare yourself and be in the right head space to do this.
Lena:But how did it feel, maybe just on a personal note, that these ancestors were so far away from home and across the ocean? I mean, how did that feel for you?
Martha:For me, so being an NAGPRA coordinator here, there are things that we have cultural protocol in what we follow and who's around it. The work that we do essentially deals with death. And that's something that is very difficult for people and culturally there are big restrictions on who has it. And for me as an individual, having the understanding of that's the burden I have decided to carry, that is a responsibility I have decided to take on. It's not work.
Martha:Eight to five when it's done and over with, I'm still thinking about them when I'm going home and when they're stuck there. And for these individuals, they had been there over a century on the And that's difficult to handle at times. And that's where we have those cultural protocols. For me, at least, that's the way that I live my life. That's the things that I follow.
Martha:Because of that, really, like we talked about that preparation, what Suket said, that preparation before and during and even after to make sure that was taken care of because it's heavy stuff.
Lena:Yeah, for sure.
Martha:To think about it, like even these individuals were taken from the places they thought they were going to rest forever. That's disturbing. It's difficult at times too, because in the thinking of the individuals who did take them from the ground, why? Why would you do that thing? Because this anatomical museum was doing this particular research that wanted to prove a theory?
Martha:But just down to the humanity of things, it's inhumane. But for us, that's when we take on that, even in death, they have certain rights. Right, And we're the ones to oversee that. So it is very heavy, heavy work that you need to do. But to me, that's helped me grow as an individual because even now in our family members that now pass, it's given me a deeper understanding of why we do certain things and how we cope as a community.
Martha:What are things we should be doing as a community to help us in this work that we have here isn't really talked about because of that. But just at least for me was to be as the best mindset and for me to keep my heart as strong as possible. And for me, I was really fortunate to have the council members that we did. And for me, I look up to them. These are individuals that I see often, and having them there also gives the strength together to be able to do this as a group.
Lena:Councilwoman Fulwilder do you want to give us a little insight on how that felt for you?
Su:k:I knew that this was something very sacred, something that, you know, we had to, I guess just knowing from experience, you know, going through ceremony, have to be in the right headspace, like Martha had said. So I knew that I had to like clear my mind, I guess, and try positive mode, but also like it was very emotional for somebody that's still grieving. I think I've been grieving all my life. I think our community members have lost so many people that it's kind of hard to put that out of your mind, but that's kind of what came to mind during that time because I did lose a child. I lost my son, so for me it was just, I guess it was kind of hard, but at the same time I felt like this is going to get you through something that you need to get through, you know, and being able to participate.
Su:k:At first I was like, I don't know if I can handle this. You know, I don't know if I want to go in there with them. Maybe I should let them. But also there was a part of me that's, you know, told myself like, You have to be there. You know, you should be there.
Su:k:Like they tell you when you go to your relatives' wakes, you know, that's the last time you can go and pay your respect and even though it's hard. You know, and I feel for those people that can't do it because I know a lot of times there are relatives who just can't be there. I guess for me, it was like up and down inside, internally, but also I just kind of thought about, it like gave me insight to basically our history and the things that have happened to our people across Turtle Island and, you know, all over the world, You know, I tried to see the positive and everything. Like when we did arrive, it was, I don't know, it was 06:30 or 07:30, but I know that the sun was coming up and that's probably the first time I actually seen a beautiful sunrise over there because the clouds were out the whole time.
Lena:Welcoming you.
Su:k:Yeah. So when I, that was the first thing I noticed when we're landing, I'm like, Oh my gosh. And I wasn't by the window. Councilwoman Carlos was. And I'm like, Can you take a picture for me?
Su:k:Because like the sunrises coming through were really pretty. You know, and I'm one for sunrises and sunsets. The whole time we were there, maybe it sprinkled a little and it hailed on me when I was walking. Wasn't too bad, but it was cold. But you know, everybody that's from there kept saying, You guys brought the sunshine with you, because usually it rains a lot.
Su:k:So I thought it was a good experience though. But yeah, it did have a emotional weight to it, but I'm just grateful that I did go through it and I was able there to support, you know, the staff and cultural resources and have that experience with the other council members.
Lena:Yeah, and I would think it would be even maybe it could be healing that you're bringing them home and they're no longer where they're not supposed to be.
Martha:Yeah, and that's kind
Martha:of why we do this work in particular. It is a way for us to heal because you think of it, you're disturbing an individual, what can cause them confusion. Just any person, you've taken them from their home And somewhere that's why we focus on this. That's why we put a lot of work, time and effort into them because they're helping us heal back in our community and reuniting and having more people here. That's what we want, especially the time like now.
Martha:Anything we can do to help the community heal is what we're willing to do.
Lena:So is this the first time we traveled to another country to do something like this?
Martha:At least from my office and what we've done from my understanding, this is the first time we've actually repatriated through the university back. We've traveled some internationally to consult on things, but never been able to repatriate.
Lena:To repatriate. Well, thank you all for going. I think that was a You should be commended for the work that you do, for being brave enough, Councilwoman Feulder, to take on that and go. Some final thoughts here. What is one big takeaway that you got from this trip?
Lena:And maybe how you Or maybe it's something about how you see what we do in the future regarding these kind of opportunities. Martha, I'll start with you.
Martha:So thinking about it, this really set a huge precedent for us on what future repatriations internationally will look like. And for us, it was very fortunate the whole experience went very well, even that we were most worried about customs and TSA. But luckily, we had prepared and everybody was of a certain knowledge base that it went really smoothly. So to me, it really set the bar high for us as we're moving forward. Now, one thing I want really to emphasize with people here is that this isn't like us to talk about things like this, and it's not so much that we're trying to keep it hush-hush, but we're trying to be respectful of the cultural protocols that are in place.
Martha:We do have a ceremony that takes place to take care of them, and that ceremony is overseen by the reburial group. So there's a group specifically, the grassroots groups, that takes care of them in this way. But for us, I know we get a lot of people, I've heard, or maybe upset if people had went, or why did we spend this much money on it? But for us, it's just part of that cultural protocol to take care of them as best way that we can with the abilities that we do have. And this being the first time, there was a lot that we didn't know.
Martha:Was very much a learning experience for all of us that were there. And so there are certain things that we can and cannot say based on the platform that is there. It's not, again, not to keep it hush-hush or to hide things from people, but it's because it's not in the appropriate cultural setting. So we're trying to be aware of that. Even that, there's certain things dependent on your age or things you've done in life where you should be having or shouldn't be having those types of conversations.
Martha:And in today's society, that's not really adhered to or seen. We're exposing our kids to things a lot younger than we probably should. And unjustly so, some of them traumatic events, that's why we're here to help. But our office is here to help in those instances, even for people like, well, how do I get involved? How do I do those things?
Martha:We can guide you to those groups that oversee there. So there's certain things we can't talk about, but for us, it's again, just to be respectful of
Martha:the cultural
Martha:protocol. To us, we were the second tribe from The US to repatriate from Scotland. That says a lot. And for us, having that, we would also have to acknowledge council and to have at least those three council members. To me, the council members who were very much involved culturally and continue to live their lives in that way is something we were very fortunate to have, to have that type of support for us to be able to greet them and to escort them back in the was something important.
Martha:So just for other listeners that are there, and if they may have questions about even that, dealing with death within the community, or how do I do these particular things, we can guide you to those people. That's what our office is here for, in support of the community, in support of the group, and if we don't know, like I said, we will guide you to those individuals.
Lena:Well said, thank you. Councilwoman Fulwilder, any last thoughts?
Su:k:I appreciate what you just said, Martha, because I feel like there are a lot of people who feel that disconnection to the culture, to their language, and they don't know who to reach out to. Sometimes our elders say, Well, it's up to them to come to us. It's up to the young people to come and ask. But sometimes they are afraid to ask or maybe they feel so left out that it's hard to approach somebody and ask, Can you teach me something? I'm glad that you put that out there and I'm glad that this will be heard about because I feel like there are a lot of people who don't even know that these things take place and all the work that's gone on over the years.
Su:k:It's important that we learn about it, but in a respectful way. Like you said, there's only so much you can say. Today's a whole new era where everything's on the internet. We want to be respectful of that. But I was just grateful, you know, like I said, to be there and to be a part of it.
Su:k:It was the first time I had gone out of the country actually overseas. I did kind of joke with the other two council members, I was just gonna see if you guys make it back, you know, and maybe next time I'll go. But, you know, just hearing the obstacles that you guys have went through in the past and, you know, how some of these were holding onto our ancestors or objects that, you know, they felt like these are ours,
Lena:we have
Su:k:them, they're in our possession and these are our relatives, you know, and it's kind of like upsetting, but at the same time, just seeing that it went through so smoothly and hopefully this can happen again, you know? But I know that there were so many obstacles that you guys had mentioned. So to see how smoothly it went this time, it is possible. These things can happen, but having the right connections and having people that actually have that humanness inside of them that they know that this is right. Even just talking to those people that we did speak to at the university kind of telling us how their own people went through some colonization too and their language being banned or their traditional ways.
Su:k:You you think that it only happens to native people in The United States, but it's happened all over the world in different areas and different And like they all say, we're all relatives at the end of the day. We're all human. We're all children of mother earth. So, it was good though. I'm glad that the experience went good and how respectful the staff were over there.
Su:k:You know, how can we make this a smooth transition? We want to be respectful. And so I really appreciated the way that they handled the situation.
Lena:Yeah. And they should be commended, too, because they didn't have to do this either. So I'm thankful for that. I want to thank both of you for joining us today in this conversation and sharing your experience, and Martha, a little bit of education too, because I know, like I said earlier, I don't know very much about NAGPRA. And so to hear the way you explain it, and it really helps understand the struggles, but also the wins that you guys get.
Lena:So thank you for your work, and thank you for your support, Councilwoman Fulwilder And we appreciate you taking the time to be here. Thank you.
Martha:Thank you.
Lena:Thank you
Lena:for listening to part one of this special series. Hearing this perspective reminds us how meaningful this work truly is. I especially appreciate the way our guests talked about the journey, that our ancestors weren't transported home, but they were escorted home. That word carries so much intention and respect, and it reflects the heart behind this entire effort. Before we close, I want to share that on June 30, I'll be hosting a session in my summer speaker series where you'll hear even more about this trip.
Lena:Council leadership will be there to share photos, answer questions, and talk about their experience. Doors open at five for dinner, and the presentation begins at six in the council chambers. We hope to see you there. And don't forget to tune in to part two, where you'll hear from two additional council members who also experienced this historic journey. Thank you for joining us today.