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Tell Me More is a weekly podcast hosted by Katy Reed Hodges and Luke Stehr, where they unpack the Sunday sermon with Dr. Dennis Wiles. This podcast is designed on the premise that Dr. Wiles always has more to say than can fit in a 35 minute sermon - so we have fun discussing it here each week. We hope that in listening you are educated, encouraged and more connected to the pastor and his teaching!
Welcome to the 99th episode of Tell Me More. We're in the studio and we're talking about Mark 1, and we go a lot of places with it, but we talk about how good life with with Jesus is, how we want people to know about it, and how exciting heaven will be when it's finally here on Earth. So we're excited that you're listening and enjoy.
Speaker 2:The we're just rejoining episode
Speaker 1:99. And it's Wednesday. It's Wednesday. Full
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Speaker 1:6 PM. Sanctuary. Don't miss it. There's a It's gonna be awesome.
Speaker 2:Meeting at 5 PM.
Speaker 1:5 PM. Business meeting. There's ice cream. Ice cream. 7 ish.
Speaker 4:But the real business starts at 6. Mad Mike's. Real business starts at 6.
Speaker 1:I said evening peaks about 6.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We are having Mad Mike's. Jen's coordinating that for us. We've been talking to them. Talking to the Stevens about some caramel caramel ice cream.
Speaker 1:Caramel ice cream Great. Among other fun flavors. And so I'm looking forward
Speaker 2:to it.
Speaker 4:I'm liking it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We like Mad Mike's. I'm looking forward to it. It's coming together. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Luke, you won't be able to be in person.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna join virtually.
Speaker 1:But you're gonna yeah. We're gonna have you on there for a bit.
Speaker 4:Yeah. About that. So I couldn't do
Speaker 1:it completely. You
Speaker 2:know? I'll be in Florida. But So for
Speaker 1:today Got it. It's episode 99.
Speaker 2:It is episode 99.
Speaker 1:We're walking through Mark.
Speaker 4:We're walking through more. We're walking. Mostly when walking through Mark. Yeah. Slow.
Speaker 4:I mean, we're slow.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're still in mark one turns out and it's still, is this just the second,
Speaker 4:3rd, 3rd.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's okay. I'm just going to over speak.
Speaker 4:Intro is the first one, you know,
Speaker 2:before we get to mark,
Speaker 1:oh,
Speaker 2:you have been,
Speaker 1:where we get to mark
Speaker 2:living into your poppy role.
Speaker 4:I have been, yeah, we've had a little Gideon at our house, since last Friday. He's our little almost 2 year old grandson, our son's little boy. So cute. Oh my goodness. We have gotten used to every morning.
Speaker 4:Hi, Poppy. Hi, Mimi.
Speaker 1:How early did he wake you up this morning?
Speaker 4:This morning went too bad. 6:45 this morning. Oh, that's good. Yeah. He's respected fine.
Speaker 4:He slept all night and popped up about 6:45. And, we have been playing. We have cooked, we have cleaned. He likes to run the little, hand vacuum cleaner.
Speaker 1:Oh, uh-huh. Sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So we've vacuumed. We have hit baseballs. We have played golf with baseballs. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:And we've shot basketballs. Luca, he can he can tell you. Luca.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 4:So he's he's a Mavericks fan already. Rangers fan, golf fan. So,
Speaker 1:And his parents are on their 10th anniversary?
Speaker 4:That's right. Vacation? 10 years. Josiah and Adrian on a trip. Well, congrats
Speaker 1:to them.
Speaker 4:Yep. I hope it's
Speaker 1:a good break for them.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, we've had fun, and our other grandchildren have been over swimming, Ada and Adler mostly, and, so they had little cousin time. They've all been playing together and having a good time. It's been fun and just summer, you know. And, so, yeah, it's been great. We've we've enjoyed it.
Speaker 4:He's going to his other grandparents today so I'll miss him. I'll miss a little hot puppy in the morning.
Speaker 1:I know. So we have to drive but we have
Speaker 4:to drive over there just to see him in the morning.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, you you call.
Speaker 4:Make sure he's okay.
Speaker 1:Call. That's good. FaceTime. Yeah.
Speaker 4:There's lots of ways. FaceTime. He's good at it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Our boys like to FaceTime. They don't quite understand, but they
Speaker 2:all kids really like FaceTime.
Speaker 4:He loves it. He'll kiss Adrian. He'll we'll put the phone up or the iPad. He'll kiss her. He'll kiss Josiah.
Speaker 1:Ours have outgrown this noise except when FaceTime comes on, and they just go. All 3 of them. I don't know what it is or who taught them that, but if a camera comes out, they know that's what they're supposed
Speaker 2:to do.
Speaker 4:So funny.
Speaker 1:They think that's what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 4:I love it. It's fun. It's cute. It's cute.
Speaker 1:It's cute. They add a lot color to your life.
Speaker 4:Oh, my goodness. Incredible.
Speaker 1:I hear grandkids really cool.
Speaker 4:They are really awesome. I'm not there yet. What would life be like without them? That means good. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's fun. It's a lot of fun. We love it. And, yeah.
Speaker 4:And he, he looks so much like Josiah when Josiah was little. It's really interesting. But we have our niece Ruby, our great niece Ruby stand with us. And, and so yes, Cindy and I were laughing the other day. We're sitting at kitchen table and Ruby was playing with Ada and Adler and, Gideon, and we remember when Ruby's mom, Carly, was a baby and when Hannah was a baby, when Josiah was a baby, and we were just laughing about how you, you know, used to.
Speaker 4:We're watching Carly and Hannah and Josiah, and now we're watching their children. I
Speaker 1:know. The generation has turned over.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you think about
Speaker 4:that? It's a great blessing. It's awesome. Good. Wow.
Speaker 4:Just let you know, time moves on. Y'all speaking, speaking of time,
Speaker 2:What a segue. What?
Speaker 1:Mark 1, 14, 15.
Speaker 4:So good in it.
Speaker 2:The time has come.
Speaker 1:I love on Sunday. It's, you know, we, we stand as tradition as our church to read the book of Mark. And it's like 10 words. It's a quick one.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Mark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. And the time has come. You may be seated pretty much it. So
Speaker 4:But you know what a great
Speaker 1:Yeah. What do you want? What do you want to tell us?
Speaker 4:I mean, here it is. It's just I mean, it's just this brief little, you know, after John was put in prison, Jesus went to Galilee, and, and then, you know, he's preaching the good news, and then he announces the kingdom of God. And as I said, Sunday morning, it's such a succinct way of stating it. You can just run right past it when it's actually this monumental moment in human history, everything changes now with the ministry of the Messiah launching. And so, let's talk about it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's pretty awesome, actually. You know? So when you think about the idea, as I've talked Sunday morning, that the kingdom of God is launched in the heart of the real world. And I, I love that, that, you know, John was put in prison, right?
Speaker 4:I mean, that's a real thing. And it's a sign of brokenness of our world. John was a legitimate prophet and messenger sent from God, obviously. I mean, even at his birth, if y'all remember when he was still in the womb, you know, when when Mary came to visit his mother, he leaps in the womb. I mean this is a man from the very beginning marked by God, they take the Nazarite vow over him, you know, as a baby that he's going to live set apart and he does, you know, and the fact that that that man, you know, you think about in this he's kind of in the spirit of Elijah.
Speaker 4:We know Elijah got in trouble a lot of times with authorities, but Elijah vanquished every time. He conquered every time, and he's taken home in a fiery chariot, you know. So this man comes in the spirit of Elijah and he's gonna get his head cut off by a pagan king, you know, so, I say pagan, I mean, Herod's family, I mean, they're cousins. They're in a means. So they're part of the family of Right.
Speaker 4:The Jewish family, but not, you know, not truly worshipers of the God of Israel. So that'd be amazing pagan for that might not be the right word for Herod, but certainly, evil It's muddy water. Yeah. Powerful man who was enamored with himself. And so he's going to be head John the Baptist.
Speaker 4:So what stands out to me about that is just that the kingdom of God is lost in the heart of that world, You know, just like the kingdom of God today is advancing in our world as challenging as it is. But then the doors now open for the messiah and, you know, Marge says it really quickly. But that's why I went ahead and referred to Luke just so we could see what how Jesus was proclaiming this goodness. You know, Luke gives you a little more fuller explanation. Oh, how about that?
Speaker 2:I really love that part where you just talked about how much you love Luke and how much you want to hang out.
Speaker 1:Did you replay that?
Speaker 4:What a great name.
Speaker 1:Dear diary today, Doctor. Waughan's phrase.
Speaker 4:And the cool thing is, look, you've got a great name. You just need to live into it. That's what I've been telling Josiah and Hannah and Gideon. That's what I've been telling Gideon, you know, all week. You got a great name.
Speaker 4:So just living that, you know? And, so, but yeah, I love I'm I'm grateful for Mark for a lot of reasons. Cause I do, I do think Mark is associated with Simon Peter. And so I think we're hearing the voice of Simon Peter and Mark's writings and that I love that because Paul gets so much, you know, credit in the new Testament as he should. I mean, my goodness, He's a singular human being that's probably had as much impact on the world as anybody outside of Jesus, I would say.
Speaker 4:But Simon Peter, you know, I mean, he was the chief of the apostles, and so and he has a couple of letters in the new testament, but, you know, the fact that there's a gospel connected to him, I really do like that, and I think it gives, it pays homage to Simon Peter, gives him his place in this story in my opinion. And and I'm glad that we know that from the earliest references to Mark. He's all even though he went on missionary journey with Paul, he's always associated by the ancient sources to Simon Peter. So I feel like when I'm reading Mark, I keep that in mind. I'm actually hearing the voice in the heart and the and the recollection of Simon Peter.
Speaker 4:So, yeah. So it's, it's good. And I love this opening, you know, this announcement that the kingdom of god is now here. So in other words, it it's kinda like, you know, in, in the chronicles of Narnia when, what is it, mister beaver? Yes.
Speaker 4:He he he says Aslan is on the move. Right. I love that line. That to me is that's the spirit of this text right here. You know, that Jesus is on the move now.
Speaker 4:So we know we're not going to be in the wilderness anymore. You know, we're not going to be alone, be intended by the devil. We're going to go wherever. And just walk among them and do what he did. And I like that.
Speaker 4:The, the, the, I feel like the phrase in the chosen captures the essence. It's not actually a quotation of Jesus, but that famous phrase get used to different is the phrase that Dallas Jenkins puts in the mouth of Jesus. Well, that captures the spirit to me of what's about to happen. We'll just go ahead and get used to different because it's gonna be really different. So it's awesome.
Speaker 4:It is. Okay. Well, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:Okay. You wanted, we'll talk about time.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about time. Mhmm. Yeah. What time is he? Well, he he shows up and he says the time has come.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And you talked about in the sermon just how many different ways in Greek or in the bible we can express time. So do you wanna get into some of that? Or tell us more about that?
Speaker 4:Well, I think I think we've all of us are infatuated with it. I mean, human beings, what do you say? We mark time, we measure time, we waste time, we spend time, we save time. Yeah. But it's the comp it's it's kind of the the the the thing that levels the ground for every human being no matter who you are, you only get so much of it.
Speaker 4:It, you know? So every single one of us would get the same allotment every single day. It, so it's, it's important. It's a gift from God. But we've always been enamored with it, you know, trying to figure out, you know, why does the sunrise every day and the sunset every day?
Speaker 4:And and these ancient people who, you know, are looking at the stars and the planets and they're watching this the the the courses that they're on and they begin to recognize patterns pretty early, you know, and so they're marking time by all of that, you know, and so we've just been enamored with time and the whole calendaring journey. As I mentioned, Sunday morning, the Mayan calendar, and then, you know, the Romans wanted to mark time, obviously. Cause they felt like they were very regular in how they did everything. So they, they loved order. That's one of the gifts that the Romans gave to the ancient world.
Speaker 4:And so one of the ways to order the world was to get the calendar right, you know, and so they, they were able to figure out that every 4 years, there's an extra day somehow. How does that how does that work? At least most every 4 years, not every 4 years, but most of the time. And so they tried to, you know, get that correct. But, but as I mentioned, Sunday morning, you know, you kind of make your way through the middle ages and they started recognizing some of the solstices were off some of the, and those are the, those are the, you know, the, the, the course of the journey of the earth and the stars and the planets and all that.
Speaker 4:Those things are pretty fixed. And so it alarmed them that they couldn't quite figure it out, you know? And so, and that's one of the things I love to do when we go to Rome. Pope Gregory, one of the one of the popes in Gregory in the late 1500, he, he he asked Michelangelo or a pope before him asked Michelangelo to redesign the baths of Diocletian, which is this massive building the northern side of Rome. That's a huge complex and not much of it's left standing today, but but there's a but the kind of the inner part of the bath is still there and it's huge with incredibly tall ceilings.
Speaker 4:And the building had been there since the early, the late 200. So it's settled. In other words, it's not, it's not shifting anymore. And so once Michael Angelo redesigned it all, Pope Gregory came along and said, okay, we're having problem with the calendar. And those astronomers who worked for him said, well, we need a way to somehow mark the March of the sun.
Speaker 4:We need we need to, and we believe we have a way to do it, but we've got to put it, we want to put it in a controlled environment, if you will. So they they researched and they looked all over Rome and they landed on that particular building and the way it was oriented by Michelangelo. He flipped the orientation of it from what the baths had to a church. And, well, up in the very high corner of the roof, these astronomers figured out that was the exact place that they could take the ray of the sun, if you will, bring it inside, and they can mark it across the floor of of that marble floor of that building. And so they built what they call a meridian line.
Speaker 4:So if you go you go look at it today, you'll look up in the corner and there's the, you know, kind of where the decorative molding came across the corner of the building. They had to cut a hole in it because it was, it had to match up with the hole in the roof, so to speak. But then you can just watch how the sun makes its way across that Meridian line on the floor. And that was one of the ways that the Pope Mark Easter, you know, was, was the solstice, if you will. And then he had a planetarium built.
Speaker 4:And so the, the, the astronomers that worked for Rome also began to work alongside him. And that's when they finally figured out, okay, it's not exactly, every year doesn't have exactly a quarter of a day extra. That's not really true. It's actually less than that. And so that's when they said, okay, so a whole month, they they moved the calendar forward by a whole month by the Pope's declaration.
Speaker 4:So there's a month basically missing, in antiquity. But, anyway, so he just said, let's get this right. And so when you go in there today, there's a, there's a dedication to Galileo, you know, so there's a there's a, kind of a shout out to him and all of his findings and his unique relationship with the church because remember he was
Speaker 2:right, you
Speaker 4:know, he was put to death because he actually believed that the sun was the center of the universe, not the earth. Mhmm. And eventually, they figured out he was right and so that's kind of their apology to him. So he's in that very famous church now with, his findings and they and they're they tell the story, they talk about how, you know, the church had this certain view and it had to be corrected, you know, and, so the point being here's the church of the west trying to reckon time. You've had the Romans, who reckon time.
Speaker 4:You have the Mayans who reckon time. You have the Persians who reckon time. The Chinese have reckon time. I mean, all these ancient civilizations have have been so enamored with it And and and I and I think we all are. We're fascinated by it.
Speaker 4:We talk about it all the time, if I can say it that way, you know. But what I love about the New Testament, the Old Testament and the New Testament is that God, to me, who exists beyond time and in time reveals that there's more to it than just marking it and measuring it. You know, there are seasons and there are seasons of promise and fulfillment, and so the time all of a sudden becomes meaningful, not just measured. And so that's what I love about the robust part of the Greek language, no disrespect to my Hebrew
Speaker 2:friend, but
Speaker 4:the Greek text, you know, you can you can phrase it in such a way just by vocabulary to help you understand, oh, he's not talking about Kronos time, you know, chronology.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 4:that the word kairos is what's used here in Mark 1, not chronos. And so that lets you know as reader.
Speaker 1:The moment.
Speaker 4:He's talking about something else here.
Speaker 1:You know,
Speaker 4:he's not talking about the time that we measure. Right. He's talking about meaningful, significant, fulfilled time and that is the word that's usually the time is full, the derivative of the word play roma, the time is is now had been filled up. Mhmm. And so, so it's it's like, I feel like God is just saying, okay.
Speaker 4:It's all. You know, I told you it was coming. I Shared it with the prophets, gave that message even to the latest one, John the Baptist, you know? And so now Jesus is done. And so if you were living in that day, what a remarkable time in history to be alive when the Messiah comes.
Speaker 4:And I, you know, mentioned Simeon Sunday morning, you know, he's in the temple every day, longing for the deliverance and the salvation of Israel and the light to the Gentiles. And when he sees baby Jesus, he gives the revelation. Here it is. And so he's, he's the one who said, you can go ahead and take me on Lord. I've what I've waited for my whole life.
Speaker 4:I'm holding my hands right now. So the time is full.
Speaker 1:Pretty big statement.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's pretty, pretty powerful image. And that's why, you know, like I said, Mark's gospel is quit hitting and I get that. And it like you said, Luke, how long does it take to read it out loud? I can't remember.
Speaker 4:It's like 20 minutes, but like an hour. Whatever it is, an hour maybe. So it's a whole gospel. You have the whole story, the life of Jesus and everything. Okay.
Speaker 4:I can do it in an hour. However, you need to sit with it. You do because it's rich and you need to pause and wonder. So why did Mark tell it this way? Because he tells it quickly.
Speaker 1:And, well, here's a good plug. Speaking of, you're gonna get a lot of Mark if you're paying attention this summer. Because today, here in a minute, we're gonna go across the street and start our summer Bible study on Wednesday lunch. And Kirk Grice is teaching us today, and we're walking through the book of Mark. And it's gonna match the bible readings from our devotional guide, our Together in Word and Deed devotional guide, which if you're doing that and you're listening to our Wednesday bible study and you're coming on Sundays, you should get, a slower walk through Mark.
Speaker 2:Which again, if we're thinking about cultivating an evangelistic sensitivity.
Speaker 4:Which we
Speaker 1:ought to be. Right. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. One of the things you need to do is know the story of Jesus. Mhmm. And so we're not asking you to memorize Mark, but if you saturate your life with the gospel of Mark, you will know how to tell a story from the gospel of Mark in your own words.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And share a story as we often prompt you to do in together, indeed over this summer about Jesus.
Speaker 4:So, and these stories, you know, have an evangelistic feel to them. You know, a few years ago, I was in I was in this year in, West Africa, and there's a chief there in an area where we had been working for a long time and we got to know him and he was a Muslim and, very but he was very welcoming man. He, it's kind of a long story, but Cindy, basically helped save his son's life. And so we had basically an open door into his village. In fact, he actually gave Cindy a piece of property in a hut in the village.
Speaker 4:So one morning, he was taking me out to show me the the her name there's Sophia, and I'm Samba. And so we have to have translators, but he said, Sam, I wanna take you today to Sophia's field because one day, you know, when y'all move here, you will see where she will be growing some of the cross. Cause that's what the women work, the fields alongside the men, but the women work the fields for the food and the men, the men, basically run cattle and that kind of stuff. But anyway, so we're walking out towards Cindy's field and, and he wants me to see his field and so he's showing me, the millet that he's growing and, several other things that he had planted And and he said something to me like, you know, this this work is hard work. And he said, and, you know, you have to depend on God.
Speaker 4:He said, because, I mean, I can't I can't do everything, you know, basically my words for his thought. I'm basically at the mercy of whether this all works or not. And I said I said, you know, Abraham, that's interesting. I see, you know, Jesus told a story about that one time, and he said, was was Jesus a farmer? And I said, well, I don't know.
Speaker 4:I said, he he his family farmed, I'm sure, because they had to eat. Mhmm. But I told him, I said, you know, his father, we believe was a carpenter who who made tools for farmers, but I'm sure he also had to farm. And he said, what did Jesus say about farming? And I said, well, you know, Jesus told a story one time that a farmer, I said, it's in it's in one of the books in the new testament, the NGL, and he was familiar with that, but he didn't have one, but he, he knew he was supposed to
Speaker 2:know it, which by the way, for the Muslims in your life, the new Testament is called the
Speaker 4:NGO, the NGO.
Speaker 2:And they are at least loosely familiar with it.
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 1:It's favorable. I mean, it's
Speaker 4:not, and, and believe God's word. So they're, you know, you're supposed to know it. So I just said, well, in jail, there's a there's a book in the NGO called Mark, and it's about the life of Jesus. And he said, well, tell me about tell me about this. And I said, well, in that book, Jesus tells lots of stories.
Speaker 4:And he said, what what did he say about farming? In other words, teach me something. You know, if Jesus talked about farming and I said, well, Jesus told a story about how a farmer goes out and he sows the seed. And I said, and then he goes home. And whether he sleeps at night or whether he stays up all night worrying, that really doesn't matter because if it's in the good soil, the, you know, the seed is going to grow is going to eventually it's going to produce the grain in the head and you're going to take a sickle and you're going to harvest.
Speaker 4:And I said, and it does that automatically because God has put that that miracle of life into that seed to which Abraham said, and he is right. This this is exactly how it works. He said, we plant these seeds with the expectation that they're going to grow. And then he we're standing on his fields, and he said, look. This is he said, Jesus was right.
Speaker 4:I said, but, Abraham, you know, Jesus wasn't talking about farming. And and the translator said, well, he's confused because he's like, what? You just told me that Jesus because in his mind, you're telling me Jesus is about to help me farm better. It's kinda what I'm sure he was thinking.
Speaker 2:And I
Speaker 4:said, but, you know, he really wasn't talking about farming. And he said, what was he talking about? So gave me a chance to say, well, actually he was talking about the story about him. The seed is actually the message about Jesus and people like me and many others who know him are trying to share that message with people. And he kind of looked at me, he kind of nodded and he said, and so this seed is supposed to produce fruit.
Speaker 4:I said, exactly. It's supposed to be planted in Twitch. Abraham said, well, where do you plant it? So when you don't plant it in the ground, you know, like you're and I said, you you planted in the hearts of people. And, and I said, and that's where it grows and it changes the person and it becomes the message of God that they choose.
Speaker 4:I mean, in other words, so we had this long conversation, so it was very interesting to me. I saw him several times after that a couple more trips, he would always mention that story to me. He would say, you know, this story that Jesus told about farming. It's a very interesting story about planting seeds in people's hearts. So these are, these are really good stories in Mark's gospel, you know, and, and they can make a difference in people's lives.
Speaker 4:Now I don't know, Abraham died, but Abraham's son is now a believer. And so in that village, he has made a huge impact. And, and so he knows he was he was there when we told some of these stories. So his son now uses some of these stories as he leads his own people. And so, yeah, there's there's power in this.
Speaker 4:There's power in this gospel. And so Jesus preached the gospel, shared this good news, and it changed the lives of many people in his day just like we believe it changes lives.
Speaker 1:When we talk about reading the gospels, Doctor. Wells, you've said, you know, there's nothing wrong with what would Jesus do? It's a good it's a good question. But you need to know what Jesus did before you can speculate what he would do now in this moment. And so if we're gonna be mature Christians, which we really wanna be right now, because there's a lot of alternatives, we we probably needed to know Jesus and what he did.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. So
Speaker 2:And not just for the sake of knowing more bible trivia.
Speaker 1:But knowing God, knowing
Speaker 2:God entering into a real relationship and letting
Speaker 4:this seed transform you and watching him, you know, that's what I love about reading the gospels, just watching Jesus and how he treats people and how he did what he did. And it's all he he's he's a fascinating person to me, you know, his Mhmm. His perspective about time, about eternity. So another part of time, you have this Greek word eschatos. We get the word eschatology from it, this whole end time thing, but the age is what I'm most interested in actually when it comes to time because I believe what Jesus was was saying that that the age to come that the prophets talked about and the that the Jews long.
Speaker 2:Oh, so we do need the Hebrew. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Old Testament.
Speaker 4:That Jesus is announcing the age to come is now here. We're now living in it. It's already been established. Well, that changes everything. And it changes the way you view people and how you treat people, how you respond to them.
Speaker 4:And so that's what I would encourage us to do. We're reading through Mark's gospel. I always like to pause and ask myself, so why did, why did Jesus do that with that person? You know, like the leper in mark 1, why would Jesus touch a leper? It's fascinating.
Speaker 4:He knew good and well in the 1st century, you don't touch lepers. I mean, the, you know, there's, there was a huge misunderstanding, a curiosity and just a mystery about what lepers even was and all they knew was it was highly contagious. They didn't know that. So, so why would Jesus touch a leper? Well, it says a lot about, I wonder about Jesus.
Speaker 4:I wonder when's the last time that leper was touched? Who touched him last? But Jesus did. And the disciples are watching it and I can almost feel like had I been there and I said, woah, woah, woah, woah, don't, don't touch him. Surely, you're gonna heal him by saying something.
Speaker 1:You're Jesus.
Speaker 4:Figure it out. But it wasn't just about Jesus. It was about that man,
Speaker 2:you know,
Speaker 4:and and his connection to Jesus. And so, you know, the rich young ruler, you know, woah woah woah don't don't make him sell everything. I mean, come on. You're gonna
Speaker 1:lose him. We're gonna lose him. Yeah.
Speaker 4:You're gonna lose him now. Come on now. Or, you know, the the Syrophoenician woman, well, why would you care about her? You know, she's not even one of us. You know, she's not even a part of the
Speaker 2:she's
Speaker 4:not even part of the of the family. So, I mean, just watching how Jesus treats people and how he challenges his own followers and how he chooses them. And that's what I love about the gospel. To be honest with you, I love to watch it and try to imagine myself in it and wonder how I would have responded, and and so it's just layered with so many opportunities to learn about how we should be treating people, and and I believe God puts those opportunities in our path. And just like we miss, I think we have we can miss Mark because it's so quick hitting.
Speaker 4:We can miss those opportunities in front of us every day as well. We can. And it's and it's not like, you know, sometimes I think we think, well, I would be a better Christian if maybe what I did was just always help people who are quote unquote less fortunate than me, and that's kinda that's kinda how I live it out.
Speaker 1:What was
Speaker 4:your thing? That's such a truncated view of of of what it means to be a Christian. I mean, everybody needs Jesus. Everybody needs to know who Jesus is. Everybody needs to be challenged in their own personal life to be confronted with with with living selfish lives.
Speaker 4:They can be, you know, Bill Gates. It didn't have to be somebody who's sitting at the corner with a sign, you know, and you pull up there getting off the freeway, and you think, man, I need to do something. Well And sometimes if that's the spirit of God prompting you, you do need to do something, but sometimes you need to have a conversation with somebody who's very well cared for and in a great position from an earthly perspective, but they're totally lost spiritually. Well, one of the ways that we live this out is engage them, you know, and, and also how do I choose just in my everyday responses at work and in my family and in my neighborhood, you know, what kind of person am I really, that that's where the gospel is on display to me the most. And I just watched Jesus do that all the time.
Speaker 4:It's just in his everyday life, you know, going from place to place, living. I think that's one of the reasons that the chosen has been so popular. It's humanized Jesus. Can I say it that way?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 4:I really think it has because I think in in in the new testament era in the 1st century, the people that walked with Jesus, nobody had to convince them he was a human. I mean, my goodness. Of course, there was a human. They saw him go to sleep, wake up, eat. So, but to say he was God, that that was a stretch for them.
Speaker 4:I think we're the opposite. If you talk about Jesus being divine, I'm good with that. But it was a human. I'm not sure. It was actually kind of the gray.
Speaker 4:I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's what's
Speaker 4:hard for me. It'd be hard. When actually he was human, and I think the chosen has brought out the humanity of the apostles as well as the humanity of Jesus. And, and I think it's now we have people criticizing. You know, I was reading the other day one of the one of the more fundamentalist theologians just said that it's blasphemy.
Speaker 4:You know, you've made an image of God. In other words, when you portray Jesus in a show, you you you have violated the same commandments.
Speaker 1:Just by doing it in general?
Speaker 4:Correct.
Speaker 1:Anytime we make a note
Speaker 4:of Jesus. Yeah. You can't do this. It's it's making them and not I read that and I thought, man, what a what a what a fascinating take on the 10 commandments and on not making an image of god. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean, trying to help people capture the essence of who Jesus is.
Speaker 2:Well, I think about how the Jesus film has been used in illiterate societies for decades.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, and just, we, people have come to know Christ. So I just thought that was fascinating.
Speaker 1:Well, fundamentalists can make it. I mean, you know.
Speaker 2:We don't need to talk about that.
Speaker 1:That's for another special edition. Not today. Can I oh, go
Speaker 4:Well, I was gonna do my please go ahead? Dissertation last night later. Were you were you from?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, because you're for those that don't remember having on your dissertation is on the Southern Baptist takeover in the seventies. Right?
Speaker 4:It's eighties, seventies and eighties. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah. I was So that is somewhat relevant.
Speaker 2:That maybe it's only more in the future.
Speaker 1:Toward the end of this podcast, do you wanna go there? No.
Speaker 4:I do not.
Speaker 2:I do have something that I think we should talk about that you kind of touched on on Sunday.
Speaker 1:We will talk about it eventually, but this ain't
Speaker 4:the place. Yeah. Okay. Good.
Speaker 2:Maybe the place, maybe not the time. Right.
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 2:You've talked about heaven.
Speaker 1:And tell us more.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Will we go to heaven?
Speaker 1:I would like to go to heaven.
Speaker 4:Yes. And I want you to, but what I would tell you is that I don't, I don't believe that heaven is this out there kind of reality ultimately, location far away.
Speaker 1:Correct. I think
Speaker 4:right now it's mysterious. It's another dimension that we don't fully understand. But the way I read the new Testament heaven, there's going to be a new heaven and new earth. And when that happens, the heaven and earth are gonna merge together. And so to me, that's where we're, that's going to be heaven.
Speaker 4:That's where we're going to live. We're going to live in a recognizable environment, that was designed specifically for human beings to flourish at at as as as as great as that potential could possibly be and living further into the potential of it as the time progresses. And so when people say, well, where is heaven? I said, well, I'm not sure where it is right now, but I believe it's gonna be on earth one day, you know, and that Jesus is an example of it. He's heaven on earth.
Speaker 4:He's he's, you know, he he introduces us into that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think And this is biblical theology. You
Speaker 4:really believe
Speaker 2:in the final chapters of Revelation. Correct.
Speaker 4:That's right. Where we get the tree of life again, you know, and it's almost that garden imagery, which is powerful in the scripture. The we open with garden imagery. Jesus is resurrected from the dead in with garden imagery, and when Jesus returns, you have this great banquet feast, but then there's the garden imagery of the book of Revelation.
Speaker 2:Jesus is even mistaken as a gardener. Correct.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So, so, yeah, I I think that heaven and earth merge together in a brand new reality. We've already seen glimpses of it. Tabernacle, temple, Jesus, you know, when Jesus is transfigured, I mean, what do you say about that? All of a sudden he's, you know, Luke says his his clothes are whiter than, you know, than any cleaner can, I mean, in other words, like, woah, he doesn't look like us anymore?
Speaker 4:Well, that's because you just had a glimpse of heaven and who he really is. And that's why I think Peter said, well, let's just stay right here. You know, this this we've never seen this. Well, of course you haven't. This is just a glimpse.
Speaker 4:And I believe, you know, I talked a little bit about that at your uncle's funeral, Katie. I think that it's the glimpse of heaven that's offered to us through Jesus, but it's on earth. It's it's that merging together of a reality that we understand, you know, so in other words, we're not, you know, there's an old far side cartoon where there's a there's a guy in heaven and he's sitting on a cloud and he's looking at a buddy of his, he's a man. I wish we brought some magazines to read as if it's morning. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Heaven is going to be this kind of a theory all body less, you know, existence that that really has no connection to reality. What do you mean? Imagine, you know, think you think about like, like when you go to Rome, and you go to, the Sistine Chapel, which is obviously one of the most incredible works of art that you've ever seen. And so, but it's a working chapel, so it's, it's, it's not just a tourist attraction. It is a tourist attraction, but they, for, for, for a long time after Michelangelo made his way up there and, you know, covered the roof with this incredible artwork, they had worship services in there, burned candles.
Speaker 4:You know, it's where the conclave meets to elect the new pope. Well, over time, over several 100 years, the soot from those candles had basically masked the ceiling if you could still see it. And so they finally figured out, you know what, this is not this doesn't look the way it would have looked in its original form. Do we think we can restore it? So they began this huge experiment with a group of chemists and artists to see if that would work.
Speaker 4:They finally decide it will work, And so they were able to remove the soot, and what it did was it restored the incredible blast of color that's in that room. But they said, we wanna make we would like to communicate to everybody what it used to look like. So they're like patches.
Speaker 1:You kept some sections.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Then they left that you see how dark it used to be, and it's stunning. You look at it, you think, oh my goodness. So that you would have totally missed the the the artistry of Michelangelo had you looked at it when it looked like that, and all of a sudden, it just bursts with color. Well, that's probably not the best analogy in the world, but one day, this world Of course.
Speaker 4:That's gonna happen. It's gonna burst forth, and we're all gonna go, oh.
Speaker 2:This is what it was supposed
Speaker 4:to be. Supposed to be. My gosh.
Speaker 1:And once you're more alive and fully human than I had been, you're
Speaker 4:going to be the new creation, the new humanity, fully
Speaker 2:underestimate how badly we communicate. What life after death will be like. I remember when I was a youth minister, actually I had to convince my youth that heaven was a place they would want to go. Yeah. Because they thought it was just going to be boring.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Lifeless kind of void. And I think we'd really described hell for them.
Speaker 4:We'll undersell it, don't we? We I think is it was it Mark Twain? I can't remember who it was that just said something like, you know, I'm a little nervous about life after death because, all my friends are gonna be in hell. You know, all the people I know and love, so I'm gonna miss them. I'm thinking what a, what a, what a poor understanding what it's really going to be like.
Speaker 4:Can you imagine what, no, we can't,
Speaker 1:but just think about your best days, your most fully alive moments, your encounters with God that are, that have changed your life, all of that right there, more than we can imagine. Yes. It's but a foretaste.
Speaker 4:And all you get into me, that's the thing Jesus communicated. You just get a taste of it, you don't get it yet. I mean, the Lord's supper is that way to me. You know, you just you don't really get a meal. That's not what happens.
Speaker 4:You know, Moshe Rosen who used to lead, Jews for Jesus. Is that what it's called, I think?
Speaker 1:That is an organization.
Speaker 4:Back in the day, he was the founder of it. Well, he was a Jewish man who was converted to Christ as an adult, and he said he he will never forget. He was invited to the lord's supper for the first time. And and he said, you know, I'm a Jewish man. We have we have these meals in our homes where all the family is there and it's tradition and it's and it's shared, you know, it's a lot of shared food, you know, and kind of that eastern culture of eating and it's such an important moment for them, you know, it's where they build character and build life and he said, I was a brand new Christian and, just believe that Jesus really is the messiah, Yeshua as he would call him, and he said and so I was invited to the lord's supper.
Speaker 4:He said, we didn't eat that day. He said, you know, we just said we're we're not we're not gonna ruin this because we don't even know what it is, but we're gonna show up hungry because of the Lord's supper. That's what he said. I'm not gonna embarrass myself and and not eat. He's like he says, so we're sitting in the sanctuary and the next thing you know, these men who I'm not really sure what their role is, They passed this little tray in front of me and he said, I'm looking at my neighbor and he said, there's this little piece of bread, this, you know, just a little square.
Speaker 4:And and the person next to me took one, and they put it in front of me. And he said, so I'm thinking, do I grab the whole you know, is it is this all you can eat? Is this or what what are we doing? You know? So he said, I took that little thing and I sat there and held it because nobody else ate it.
Speaker 4:And he said, and then the pastor told us, well, you can eat it. He said, well, then it came time for the wine, and he said they brought this little bitty cup, you know, that had, like, just a drip. And and he said and so we're I'm sitting there thinking, okay. So what's about to happen? And turns out that was it.
Speaker 4:You know? He said, so can we call it something else instead of supper? He said, because in my culture, supper means something well. But for being, that's all it is. It's a taste.
Speaker 4:It's just, you know, that's that to me is an, is is a teaching moment for us that all we get right now in in every area of our life really is just a glimpse. You know, but it's enough, it's just a taste. Can you imagine what it's going to be like when we actually get it for real? So, and to me, that's when the time will be really full, you know, so yeah. And I think we don't do a good enough job communicating that, with with a culture that's looking at this world, and they already know this world's broken.
Speaker 4:I think that's a great maybe we need to talk more about that, Luke, about from an evangelistic perspective. Can you imagine a world really different than this one? Because there's one coming that's gonna be really different than this. Can you imagine one that's actually perfect, you know, where justice really is served, you know, and the vulnerable really do experience blessing in ways that they could never experience right now. That's what's coming, but you need to get in on it.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. You know? So yeah. Right.
Speaker 2:That's a good word to end on.
Speaker 4:Yeah. K.
Speaker 2:Love it. Well, tell me more live next this coming Sunday.
Speaker 1:Yep. Count it down.
Speaker 2:6 PM
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Business meeting. 5 PM Yep. Ice cream. 7 PM.
Speaker 1:Sanctuary.
Speaker 4:Love it.
Speaker 1:Sanctuary, Washington.
Speaker 4:Gonna be great.
Speaker 1:See you. Thanks for listening to the Tell Me More podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at fvca.org to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.