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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
We're down under again.
I've got Zinnia Nicole from Ungarra Bush
and Life Learning in New South Wales.
Very, very interesting concept.
Dear to our hearts because it's the
highest levels of horsemanship mixed
with the highest levels of neuroscience,
mixed with just nature and the mind.
Being really, really obsessed with
the horse training and rehab and
the service, while at the same time
willing to abandon that in two seconds
if that is not where the client is.
And using nature in all the ways that
science and also the heart dictates.
So I've known Zinnia for a while,
and I've watched her grow her
practice, and it's really top-notch.
But she wasn't always in New South Wales.
I'm gonna ask her to tell you her story.
And just before we we hit record here she
came up with an interesting concept which
I wrote down and I'd like to explore in
the course of this conversation, which
is the idea of not having an agenda isn't
really, I think, completely accurate.
It's something that we often wish to have,
whether it's with people or with horses.
But of course, we have to start somewhere.
So Zinnia came up with this
rather spontaneously, and
having an idea, not an agenda.
An idea, not an agenda.
And I think that's lovely, and I
think that's probably the sort of
quintessence of our best practice, really.
So I want to explore that.
So Zinnia, Ungarra Bush and
Life Learning, New South Wales.
Who are you?
What do you do?
Sinya Nicol: Hi, thanks for having me.
Yeah, my name is Xenia.
I grew up in Fr- near Frankfurt, Germany.
And yeah, where, where do I start?
I,
Rupert Isaacson: Deep in the- Grew up-
⦠deep in the bush of Frankfurt, Germany.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, that's right.
Exactly.
Deep in the bush.
But even though it was very suburbia, my
parents had a little hut on a lake, on
a, like a campsite, permanent camping,
and we spent a lot of time there.
And me being an only child, there wasâ¦
I was bored a lot, so I ventured off,
and it was a very safe environment
once you can swim, I guess.
And because there's a little lake there,
but I was just able to just roam a lot
on this sort of protected campsite.
And so I feel like I somewhat
grew up quite close to nature.
And then, as you know, like, the
forests that Germany has to offer and
stuff, spent a lot of time in there.
Mm-hmm.
So even though it sounds, like, very u-
urban, there was a lot of, a lot of nature
around, and I was always drawn to it.
And then I was always drawn to horses
as well, which my family always made fun
of me because I'm like, "Oh, a horse."
Mine too.
Yeah.
Yeah, and they're still
like, "Look, Xenia, a horse."
Like, "Oh, yeah, a horse."
So, yeah.
I will buy it.
So that was just, justâ¦
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah, I've gotten
careful with that one.
Yeah.
Yeah, no.
I've got a lot of horses given now, and
I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, everyone.
Slow down."
Rupert Isaacson: The horse habit.
Mm-hmm.
Sinya Nicol: Yep.
You, you learn the hard way.
First you're like- Isn't that
usually ⦠"Sure, I feed another horse."
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Maybe 10.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: So.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
so you were that little
Sinya Nicol: girl.
Yeah, that's right.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
And then I always wanted to ride, but
having horses in this urban area is an
expensive exercise, so my parents sort
of couldn't or didn't wanna afford this.
So I started in a stable, going
there, grooming horses, just
being around them all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Sinya Nicol: Getting horses ready for
people, taking them off their hands.
And then I started riding them in the
walk around just to, like, sort of
after, after they've been trained,
just ride them to, for them to dry off.
And then one day someone said, "Come
on, take your reins and start trotting."
So I did, and then I had lessons
there, and I slowly gotten older
and better, I guess, and people
wanted to go on holidays, so then
I was able to ride their horses.
Then someone fell pregnant,
so I had a horse for a year.
And so things like this just
kept happening and yeah, I wasâ¦
I spent all of my time in that stable,
which gave me a good connection to horses
and then as well being in this environment
with all the people and, like, a social
environment, all the connections there.
I really loved being out in nature.
It wasâ¦
It just served a lot of purposes, and
I wasn't bored anymore, and there was
this bit of excitement, of adventure.
And then I started jumping a
little bit here and there, and
yeah, it just really intrigued me.
I always wanted to spend all my time
there, as so many people do when
they start spending time with horses.
Yeah.
I was just drawn to it.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
You talk about this story.
I think, I think a lot of people who grow
up not owning their horses until they're
older, but starting as you started.
My wife did the same thing, as you know.
Working, first volunteering for-
First just being around, then cleaning
the stalls, then volunteering,
then getting horses ready, then
learning how to cool horses down.
Like, all of that long before
you actually learn to ride.
I feel that that gives you a kind of
depth because you work from the get-go
with a whole variety of personalities
and physical types of horse.
That's the one thing.
But the other thing is you are
on the sort of service end of the
horse industry rather than on the
consumer end of the horse industry.
And so if one is lucky enough, say,
to grow up on a farm, you know,
with a horsey family, and you're
doing horses as part of the family
culture, that's great, you know.
But obviously that's gonna be
a niche restricted to certain
rural areas of the world.
For, given that the vast majority
of people live in cities and suburbs
even though the suburbs, as you
say, of Frankfurt are actually deep
forest and very beautiful countryside
that everyone actually has access
to, so one can live there and spend
pretty much all one's time in the
forest, as I found out living there.
This idea, I think, of having to be of
service to others through horses from
a very, very early age is a really good
preparation, I think for the kind of work
that we do because then when you get to
the point, as you say, where you've now
scratching your horse habit well, and
you've- ⦠acquiring more horses than
you probably should you're still very much
in the habit of saying, "These horses are
here, and I am here with them to serve."
And then, you know, I often bang
on about this concept of tribe
because we're social apes, and
without tribe we can't do anything.
We never have been able to do anything.
The concept of the lone indi-
rugged individual is someone who
gets eaten by hyenas actually
as soon as he gets the flu.
So, we, we gotta have tribe, and
horse culture evolved tribally.
So people like you who grow up
as you described I think also get
imbued with a real sense of tribe and
how tribe operates in those barns.
As you say, someone fell pregnant,
"What am I gonna do with my horse?"
Well, there's ni- there's Zinnia.
You know, bubb- these things seem
self-evident, but I think it's, I'm
just shining a light on them because I
think they give insights into how the
approach, the equine assisted approach
works at its best, is when it takes
this tribal support sort of approach.
So all right.
Yeah.
So you've talked about
how you got into horses.
How'd you get into the brain, special
needs learning, that sort of thing?
Sinya Nicol: So that's quite
a personal story as well,
because what happened wasâ¦
So, you know, I rode in those
stables actually all the way
through till I finished my
degree and then went traveling.
But when I was about fifteen, sixteen,
I, with some friends, we started
experimenting with psychedelics which
was, which was, like, very exciting at
first, but it had a really dark flip side.
So, I wasâ¦
It was, like, me and two others who
were really close, and we ex- started
experimenting with that stuff, and it was
really exciting and all that at first.
But what happened was that one
of us started having a psychosis.
And so I've got a real insight of what
that looks like from the inside almost.
Because I was-- we were that close
through all these experiences, I really
experienced the, the dark side of this
and what that means for a personality
and that it is the disease of the
character or the character itself.
Like, you can't really separate
and there's, you know, common f-
factors in someone that shows up
with schizophrenia, but theâ¦
it's a very much an individual journey,
and I w- I felt like I was in it
rather than looking from the outside.
And me and another friend,
the two of us, we were almost
babysitting him, if you want.
Like, he got into a state
where he couldn't really talk.
He went through all different
stages of being able to talk, being
funny, being aggressive, being very
helpless and vulnerable and needing
us and, like, all of these things.
And, Yeah, we were just, we were only
15, 16, so there was not much help.
I don't know, I f- I felt there wasn't
as much education around it either.
The school didn't really do much
about it, and we just- Mm ⦠sort
of consistently monitored him.
But that just really gave me a real
insight on what this can look like.
And I then went to America to
to get away because I felt there
wasn't sort of any other option
for me to get out of this rut.
And after my H- is it called HSC
in all the, Like, that's what it's
called here,abi, in, like the-
Oh, ⦠year 13 or year 12 and- After
Rupert Isaacson: graduation,
graduating high school
⦠Sinya Nicol: yeah, af- after
graduation from school.
I went then to America, to Kentucky to
work on a, a horse farm there for a year.
And and then, like I've done this,
that was a real wake-up call as well
because, you know, I, I, I grew up as
in this really protected environment
with not much physical labor.
And then I- ⦠like got
thrown in the deep end of,
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: like, you know, carrying
water, watering like 30 horses twice
a day, bringing them out in the
fields, and Kentucky gets really cold
in the winter, so like standing on
troughs- And really hot and humid
in the summer ⦠and picking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Thatâ¦
It was, like, extreme.
And during the, during the day I
was mucking stables and handling
all these really crazy stallions.
And in the afternoon- This is
the thoroughbred race, isn't
Rupert Isaacson: it?
⦠or on the weekendâ¦
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Dixiana Farm in Kentucky, Lexington.
And then on the weekends I was having
champagne with some, some, like, you
know, the people who owned the racehorses
and stuff, and like they, they took
us girls there, and we just, I don't
know, had champagne with these guys.
So it was really contrasting,
definitely a steep learning curve.
Another type
Rupert Isaacson: of schizophrenia, yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and then, you know, as well,
like, being away from home for
the first time and, like, and then
in a different language as well.
Like a- Yeah ⦠like, you know, you
s- you learn English in school, but
it's a different story as you know.
Especially down there- Communication-
⦠Rupert Isaacson: where they're talking
a different kind of English, oh.
Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: That's right.
Yeah.
And I, and I was just, like, completely
lost, and that, that's a good,
that was a good teacher for what it
means to not be able to communicate.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Sinya Nicol: Or being thrown back on, on,
on other forms of communication, right.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, and then I came back
and, Me and that other friend, we caught
up again and really, I don't know, just
like talked to each other that much.
We spent a lot of time together
and just really talked it all
through, and what happened and what
we can remember and all of this.
And then I went off and studied
social pedagogy, and I think
this is what brought me there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Explain toâ¦
Now, we don't really use the word
pedagogy in English like you guys
do in Germany and other parts of the
world, and it's, it's really the, the
science and the art of teaching, right?
Rather than just learning to teach.
And I often think that this is something
that's a little bit sad in the UK,
and perhaps in the US as well, but
pedagogy, the, the, the art of how to
teach, it's rolled into some degree into
teaching degrees, but it's not given
the same emphasis or attention that I
think it is, particularly in Germany.
Can you explain to us what a social
pedagogy degree is and does and what,
sort of what it prepares you for?
Sinya Nicol: So it's a mix between
psychology, sociology, and social
work and educational science.
So, it looks at the person in a whole.
And it's very, like, person-centered
rather than defic- def- deficit-centered.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Sinya Nicol: So it looks at, at what,
what growth can be achieved and how to
help people find meaning, a meaningful
life and what that means for them.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sinya Nicol: So you'd be more in- And
Rupert Isaacson: what that
could look like for them
some school counselor role
than necessarily just a
teacher role type thing?
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, exactly.
It's, it's, it's, it's supporting
them to find out what works for them.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
So you do this degree and then?
Sinya Nicol: Then I started traveling
again and went, And in, in, in between
that I, I worked in, like, a youth
coffee house, so with troubled youth.
That was really valuable as
well especially connecting to,
to people from, like, different
cultures and you know, often boys
as well and, and finding, finding
relationship and connection to them.
Mm-hmm.
That was really valuable as well.
And then I, I was always
fascinated by Africa.
I can't even say why or how
this started, but I was justâ¦
I just knew that's where I wanna go.
So I booked myself a tour, like an
overland tour that went from Joburg up to
Nairobi, so from South Africa into Kenya.
And yeah, f- that was
just, like, mind-blowing.
Like, seeing all the animals
in the first night drive.
I seen the Big Five and I, I remember
thinking, "I can die now and it's fine.
Like, I've seen what I needed to see."
It's like, wow, it's amazing.
I can, yeah, only recommend.
And and that was an eye-opener again.
Like, this is such a wild country, as
you know, and it really grounds you,
I find, and just shows you as well.
Like, makes you humble, right?
It's, it's a dangerous place.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
Itâ¦
I, I, I always feel in Africa that
you're never as alive anywhere
else as you are in Africa.
Mm.
There's something about Africa that-
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: That's right.
It's just almost like itâ¦
you, you wanna take your
shoes off and just, like-
Rupert Isaacson: Be
⦠Sinya Nicol: go bush.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Be.
It's, it's, it's absolutely magical,
and, like, a lot that youâ¦
I can't explain.
And yeah, I I booked a tour for five
weeks, and I ended up staying six months.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Where did
Sinya Nicol: you stay?
I, So first I was in a place
called Thornybush, whichâ¦
So I finished the tour, and then I
went back to a place in Thornybush,
which is on the outskirts of the
Kruger National Park, and I worked
there just as a cleaner and preparing
breakfast and all these sort of things,
and just done a lot more safaris and-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Sinya Nicol: you know, like,
taking the cars to get fuel,
like that sort of thing, just to-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah ⦠just
to help enhance ⦠eco-tourism
service side of things.
Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
And then I worked at Noetzie
near Cape Town, guiding hor-
people on horses to the beach.
So, you know, living the dream,
which is, like,- Yeah, yeah
amazing . I'm like, "I'm
never gonna leave," I think.
But I had booked a, a round-the-world
ticket, and next stop, like, I
skipped so many stops because I had
to stay so long in Africa because I
fell in love with, with being there.
And then I came to Australia, worked
in Melbourne on a horse farm, guiding
people on horses to the beach.
And yeah, that was a great opportunity
as well to get to know the Australian
culture and I had fallen in love in Africa
as well with an Australian, funny enough.
And he came over and he was working as
a tour guide over there, so he came to
Australia and showed me the east coast.
And then he quit his job and we went and
lived in Germany, and he said he can live
anywhere, but that was before winter hit.
So then winter hit, and
he had to reconsider.
So, yeah, so this is how we
ended up in Australia in the end.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: But, yeah, there was,
like, South America in between as well.
So lots of
Rupert Isaacson: traveling and-
I was gonna say, well, let meâ¦
Just before you go to how you ended up
in Australia tell us a little bit about
South America, I think, because knowing
you as I do, I know that that was also a
big formative part of your development.
And where I wanna go with this is I do
think that although it's perfectly all
right to never leave your backyard,
you can, you can take a voyage in
the universe around your own bedroom.
It's, it'sâ¦
There've been books written
about this, and it is true.
The human mind, the human imagination.
At the same time, we are born to be
slightly nomadic, and I think that if you
spend a lot of time exploring nature in
the way that you have in other cultures
and having to learn to communicate in
other cultures and deal with danger and
deal with all of the change, it does put
you in a very good position for helping
other people do that in other ways.
But just go on now with,
with South America.
What did you do down there
and yeah, what did you learn?
Sinya Nicol: So, we got contacted
by a company there that do overland
tours- Mm ⦠as they needed a guide.
So, we went and done the training, and
then run tours from Quito in Ecuador
in the summer, all the way down to
Ushuaia, and then back up to Rio.
And then every capital, we
picked up and dropped off people.
So, it's like a, the, the to- it's
a, it's a 18-ton truck and then the
top is built like a bus while the
bottom is full of camping equipment,
tents cookers, and all of this.
So we had about 32 people,
or 32 seats, I think.
And then- Mm
yeah, we we had the passenger list
and then done the pre-departure
meeting and off we went.
And yeah, it's like, it's, it's, it's
the, another one of those really steep
learning curves feeding that many people,
having to plan breakfast, lunch, dinner,
knowing where the next shop is, how long
you will be without food, what sort of
emergencies can occur, and what options
you have at each spot to you know, like
to, to find solutions towards that.
And then getting people from all walks
of life as well, that are then put in
situations that they've never been before.
I had people asking me how
to peel a carrot, and how can
I tell that water's boiling.
I thought they're
joking, but they weren't.
Like, they just hadn't been taught.
They just didn't had to have to do it.
So I like had to explain a lot of
these things, and then as well,
like some people are just veryâ¦
come from maybe urban places and get quite
scared being out in the bush that far.
And that's, so, so having to sort of being
aware of all of this or, or gettingâ¦
I wasn't aware at first, like it was,
as I said, a steep learning curve.
Like, you, you, you know, you then
roll with the punches and trying
to comfort people and get them, get
them through- And yeah, it's, That
was maybe, again, something like
putting yourself in service, right?
You want them, like, they paid good
money to be on a good- on a tour,
and you want to make this experience
worthwhile for them, and yeah.
So we get an itinerary
with all the activities.
You c- you ask people what they
want to do, you book them in, and
then you deal with the consequences
of their decisions, I guess.
But, I love
Rupert Isaacson: that.
Then you deal with the
consequences of their decisions.
Give us some examples.
Sinya Nicol: Oh.
Look, some people come and walk the
Inca Trail and haven't brought really
appropriate shoes, and then end up with
a lot of blisters, and it's just, like,
little things like this, or they- theyâ¦
Look, I don't know how,
how crazy you want this.
So, we had one girl, and she
just had no sense of- of- of
safety, and she brought herself
repeatedly in dangerous situations.
Like, you just don't walk out in
certain parts- Yeah ⦠of the world.
In the, in the slums of La Paz, you just
don't walk there by yourself, because- Mm
by the way you dress, by the way you
walk, and by the color of your skin,
that just indicates that you, that
you wealthier than the people there
that have to feed their families.
Like, you know, there's-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: So, And what happened?
Did you deal with
Rupert Isaacson: that?
Sinya Nicol: It was very
hard to keep her safe.
Rupert Isaacson: How
did you keep her safe?
Sinya Nicol: I had to put my foot down.
I had to apply the right pressure.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sinya Nicol: Sh- yeah,
she came- How, but how?
Rupert Isaacson: Because you can't
hold a gun to someone's head.
So-
Sinya Nicol: No, but I had to, I
had to be really firm with my speech
on what can and could have happened
last night- Yeah ⦠when she walked
herself, by herself into a local pub.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Sinya Nicol: And I only knew from
someone that we knew in the village
that rang me and said, "One of your
white girls just walked into the pub."
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Sinya Nicol: So thank God we
had these connections and,
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: and so I got her out
of there and, and explained to
her what what could have happened.
But the problem was- Did
she, did she accept it-
with this particular- ⦠or
Rupert Isaacson: did she
think you were full of it?
Sinya Nicol: She did.
No, she did, but this
particular girl probably had a
certain degree of disability.
Rupert Isaacson: What would you say
she had knowing what you know now?
Sinya Nicol: Well, putting a diagnosis
on her now is just- I don't know.
I can't really say.
Like I w- I, I'd say she probably
had an intellectual disability.
Ah, okay.
Like she just wasn't able to really
understand threat and danger.
Rupert Isaacson: Where was she from?
Sinya Nicol: And, you know.
England.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
It's interesting- Yeah ⦠that
that manifested i- to you as
a intellectual disability.
I'll tell you a quick story.
As you know, I've done a lot
of that sort of travel as well.
And when I was writing a guidebook, I used
to be a guidebook writer for years, and
I was writing one to chunks of Southern
Africa, I found myself traveling with two
German girls, splitting costs as you do.
You know, you go to a ⦠I would
go to, like, backpackers hostels,
put a notice up saying, "I'm going
to here, here, here, and here.
Anyone wants to come with and split p-
you know, gas costs," that sort of thing.
It's very helpful, so it's helpful
to have other people along.
So, first there were, like, four people,
and then ended up with just the three of
us for a while, and there's this one, one
of the two girls, about 3:00 every day
would have a mood swing, and would become
this angry contrary, aggressive person.
She damn near got me killed three times.
Mm-hmm ⦠once in Angola, which
was pretty rough back then.
The civil war was still going on, and
I ended up with a 15-year-old soldier
pointing a, you know, who's clearly
high on the drugs that they would
give the child soldiers, pointing
his automatic at us, and her starting
to scream at him, not in fear.
Sinya Nicol: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and me having to
literally say, "If you don't want
to die now, you will be still."
But if you are not, we will all die now.
Like now.
Which one do you want?
But as I say, you can't, you, you,
even with a gun held to her head, she
couldn't ⦠Anyway, and there were many.
She got me ⦠She caused a bar fight
in a town called Rundu, which I know
you've probably been to, in Namibia,
on the border with Angola, and I ended
up in, being targeted by the guys
she'd annoyed, and I found myself
facing this enormous wall of a guy,
and the, he was completely angry.
I didn't even know what had happened.
I just walked in and heard the
screams, and no one had been touched.
It wasn't even like that.
And she just didn't like him,
so she started screaming at him.
And the barman handed me a, a mace, a
wooden mace, and said, "There you go."
Mm.
You know, I'm looking
at this guy, you know.
Anyway- A solid mace ⦠how we got out
of that one was a whole other thing.
But what was interesting is years later,
after I published The Horse ⦠I, I,
I, I took them after that incident to a
nice town, Victoria Falls, where there's
nice, nice public transport connections.
Accommodation and yeah.
Very, very safe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Lots and lots of backpacks.
I said- See you later ⦠"Here we go.
Off you go with the
rest of your teammates."
I'm out of here.
"Lovely knowing you," and
I'm going the other way.
⦠' Sinya Nicol: Cause
Rupert Isaacson: I just
knew law of averages.
The, the, those are only
two examples of the things.
But anyway, years later- Yeah
after I published The Horseboat, I got a
letter from her, and I, I hadn't ⦠This
would've been 15 years or plus later.
Yeah.
And she said, "I just wanted to
apologize for all that drama.
I was very soon after that
diagn- diagnosed bipolar.
Didn't know what was
up with me until then.
Have been, you know,
dealing with it since.
And anyway, I just wanted to let you know.
Sorry about all that."
And you know, and I just thought
that was very, very early in my
understanding of- neuropsychiatric things.
So it's interesting how when you
see people who haven't got the
information about who they are, and
because I think these things also
creep up sometimes gradually then
they go out in the world without the
information, and it can end badly.
Which-
Sinya Nicol: Especially when, when
situations occur that are so out of
their normal comfort zone, right?
Yeah.
Like if things, like, get a bit scary
or get uncomfortable or they haven't
⦠Maybe, like, their needs haven't been
met in a way that they know from home.
Like, they may be hungry, they may
be- Mm ⦠finding it hard to travel
that much being around people all the
time, not having their own space- Mm
besides a tent.
Like, it's just so many things where
people get pushed to their, what they
can take and what they- Yeah ⦠I
mean, know what they can take, right?
You learn about yourself when you travel.
That's the whole point, I guess-
Yeah ⦠to a certain degree anyway, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and I sort of believe in travel
as a type of pilgrimage, you know?
I think that almost all indigenous
s- societies, you know this, have
the idea of the sacred journey and
life itself as a sacred journey.
And l- the lives of your ancestors to
you being all part of a sacred journey.
And in Western culture we've
lost it mostly, but we still
do it when we go on vacation.
Like, we go to the beach because
that's where our biology actually
tells us to go, because that's where
we evolved as a species, that meeting
of ecosystems between land and water.
It's where all the earliest- Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: And all the food ⦠yeah.
Yeah.
All the food- Right ⦠that's
there and, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then, exactly,
food security, long sight lines
on the beach because there's no
That it hard for predators
to creep up on you.
And then people still got-
Sinya Nicol: Unless you live in
Queensland, which I still- Unless you live
in Queensland ⦠think is absolutely mad.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Sinya Nicol: Like mad.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Sinya Nicol: Everything
tries to kill you out there.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed,
indeed, indeed, indeed.
Yes, we'll get into Queensland in a moment
'cause I've got with Rowan a bit of a
background up there too, however brief.
But yes, you know, this, this idea of-
transformation and seeking healing,
whether it's going on vacation to a
beach, whether it's going to see a
healer, whether it's going to a pilgrimage
to Lourdes or something obvious like
that, you know, Santiago de Compostela.
But there you were in the, in the proc-
in the sort of business of showing
people these sacred journeys, really
whether it was taking them to the beach
on horseback in a very beautiful part
of Africa, or whether it was taking
them to Machu Picchu, or whether itâ¦
And, and these lifelong dreams
that people have, or taking them on
safari to see elephants and lions.
Keeping people alive and keeping people
safe, as you say, it's no easy thing, and
sort of keeping people emotionally safe.
Did you find that you burned
out with this after a while?
Sinya Nicol: Yes, I certainly did.
So see the firstâ¦
So we got trained for the first
six weeks, my husband and I,
on different parts of the tour.
Mm.
And then we'd done sort of the first
part w- we bo- either of us knew, and
then we were flying blind, and that
was, that put that amount of stress
on me that I was almost quitting.
I couldn't, like, it was just so hard.
But then on the way back I
knew it all and it was fine.
But it is so, it is very stressful and,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Sinya Nicol: yeah, I was very happy.
Like, after two years
I'm like, "And that's it.
I can't, I can't do it anymore."
But having children after
this felt like a breeze.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, really, eh?
Sinya Nicol: It's like
one person to look after?
Easy.
Yes.
Not yet wondering
Rupert Isaacson: about
Sinya Nicol: three boys.
At least,
Rupert Isaacson: like,
we're pet, you know what I
Sinya Nicol: mean?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You got three boys now.
Yeah ⦠I'm
Sinya Nicol: sure they'll be- Yeah.
And it's not, it's not a breeze.
And there was, there was, like, lots of
paths in this where it wasn't a breeze,
but I'm just saying it prepared me well-
Rupert Isaacson: It did
Sinya Nicol: for, for that.
Rupert Isaacson: Also, the, the
business of, you know, vehicles
break down machinery goes wrong-
Uh-huh ⦠things run out.
Yeah.
But, and just to constantly have
to deal with that in places where
you can't just go down to the local
sort of quick fit chain, oil change
or exhaust change place, you know,
learning how to change, stuff tires
full of straw when they blow, you know.
I've, I've gone through
that learning curve too.
It, it, it does help you- Yeah ⦠to
sort of think, well, w- w- we got
our great friend Kira who's been on
this show actually she's been on the
other one Liffey Rivalry, and she's
Danish, and she says the Danes have
this great expression, which is, "It'll
probably be okay, and even if it's not
okay, it'll still probably be okay."
And so-
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think what you
Sinya Nicol: did- Yeah, it's so true.
Hakuna matata, hey?
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
And sÄ vÄ planificÄm, we'll make a plan.
All right, so you do all this.
Yeah.
This is incredible experience,
and of course, in the course of
this you meet the man that you're
gonna have children with as well.
And as you say, after a couple of years
of it, though, you're like, "All right.
Now it's perhaps time for the next thing."
So where do you go from there?
Sinya Nicol: We first went back to Germany
and just had, had a bit of a breather,
like half a year of like just, ooh.
And then yeah, I we planned a child and
had one, and then we took a backpack
each and the child and came to Australia.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sinya Nicol: That's how that went.
And then we moved in with my
husband's grandmother and he got
a job and I looked after the child
and then, you know, we w- bought a
house and we had the second child.
And then that was quite challenging
in between because I've gotten quite
homesick, you know, just being away with
two little children away from my tribe.
Homesick for Germany?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Like more for my family.
I was very close to my grandmother
as well- Mm ⦠and I like, you
know, have dear friends and theâ¦
My husband's family were amazing.
Like, they're really very,
very supportive, but that just
weren't my mom and my grandma.
Yeah.
I just wanted them.
So, we went over there for a little
while, just for a few months.
And then we went to, back to Africa.
We lived in Namibia for a year,
and I worked in a school hostel,
which is like the place whereâ¦
So Namibia, as you know, is a big country,
so, kids live on farms and when they come
into school age they all come to the town.
So one of the towns they come to is
Swakopmund and there is lots of schools
in Swakopmund and there's the German
Schuler Heim, which is the German
school, boarding school- dunno, hostel.
Yeah.
And the kids come and live there,
and then I work there as a social
worker, driving them to the schools
doing homework with them, driving them
to their afternoon activities, and
pretty much being their mom in a way,
because there was some kids six years
old, they're just the first time- Wow
away from home.
Crazy.
From, from this environment of growing up
on a farm in Namibia with, like, all this
space and, you know, farm life, elephants,
lions, whatnot, and they're coming into
this urban environment by themselves.
That was, that was hard for some.
Really, really hard.
Rupert Isaacson: I bet.
Sinya Nicol: But was, what was amazing
about this job is, like, I wasâ¦
I worked in a team there, a very
lovely team, and I could have my
children with me all the time.
So they were just, like, running about,
and there was a preschool that they
went to as well on two days, but the
rest I could just have them with me.
And Ben started his own travel
company over there and was shipping
Land Cruisers from Australia to
Namibia and, like, building this up.
And we had a year over there, and then
spent another half a year in Germany.
And then, again, winter hit, and- ⦠my
husband's like, "I just cannot do this.
This is like just not nice."
So then we went half/half.
So our kids went to school in Australia
for six months, and then in Germany
for six months, and this was the time
where we met because my middle son
and your second son met at preschool.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
So just for, for listeners, this
is rather an interesting thing.
We, when Ileana, who's currently editing
this podcast, and I moved to Germany in
2018 our little boy, Kirian started at a
preschool, at a kindergarten and to our
astonishment, one of the teachers goâ¦
the head teacher actually goes, "Oh,
well, you gotta meet this family.
Y- y- you're Africa, you're
Namibia, and, you know, and
horses and, and travel and da da."
They're you, effectively.
And- ⦠we met you and Ben, and we
went, "Well, we kind of are, actually."
You know, and it was interesting
to have this so many parallel
experiences this way.
And then of course also your great
love for horses, and we started, of
course, working together with our
horses there in, in Frankfurt area.
Yeah.
Wiesbaden.
And- You were curious enough to learn
Horse Boy method, movement method really
get into that and start helping us out
with the services we were offering there.
But after a while yeah, you guys
decided to head back down to Australia,
where you are now again in New South
Wales, and since then you have started,
I'm going to spell it so people know
how it's spelt, Ngara, N-G-A-R-A,
Ngara Bush and Life Learning, and
you now have two campuses, right?
And one is- Yes ⦠really quite wild.
One is a little closer to the town.
You're working with horses, you're
working with people, you're working
with indigenous communities.
I know you're also back working
with schizophrenia a little
bit, where this story began.
Can you tell us now, tell,
take, talk us through Ngara.
What does the word mean, and
in what language, and then how
does this inform your practice?
Sinya Nicol: So Ngarara is a word from,
from the Worimi language, which is
the Aboriginal community in this area.
Rupert Isaacson: Worimi.
Sinya Nicol: And it means, Worimi.
Rupert Isaacson: Wor-
Sinya Nicol: Worimi.
W-O-R-I-M-I.
Yeah, Worimi.
Rupert Isaacson: Worimi.
Sinya Nicol: And Ngarara means
listening to one another.
And it was funny, I actually was looking
for a word that describes black cockatoo,
because we had so many black cockatoos on
the farm, and I came across a few words
that were similar to Ngarara, but they
were, they were really hard to pronounce.
So I'm like, "You know, I'm
gonna have to abandon that idea."
And then I came across Ngarara,
which meant listening to one another,
and I thought, "This is perfect.
This is exactlyâ¦
describe what I'm, what I,
what I'm planning on doing."
Because I really believeâ¦
And, see, when I met you guys not just
the horsey side of things, which like
was amazing for me to, to see all of the
way you train the horses and learn from
you guys and get to ride in in Germany
together and all the, the jumping and
all of that what we did, but as well,
the movement method and Horse Boy method
to me felt like the missing piece.
It was like, it's just like one
bulb up moment after another like,
"Wow, this is exactly what I'm,
what I wanna do," and that fits so
well in my experiences that I had.
And yeah, so, I then started
operating from the farm.
And I was supporting or am supporting
people sort of to find their own
healing, because what I learned
throughout my time is that everyone
knows best themselves what they need.
Mm.
It just needs someone to listen
and even themselves to listen.
I find a lot of people are disencouraged
to listen to themselves, and some have
very much like, you know, gone into
a nervous system state of, say, you
know, what Deb Dana calls dorsally,
like really shut down and stuff.
And for them, that worked for a long time.
Their, their nervous system and
their s- soul done something that
kept them safe for a long time.
So I think it, it takes time, and only
the person itself knows the way into
a life with less suffering, right?
So, I'm trying to prepare the
environment for that so they canâ¦
and, and try to support them toâ¦
on that journey, whatever that
means, and that means something
completely different for each person.
And this is what I meant before
when I said I have an idea, but
I don't have an agenda, because
they build their own agenda.
Theyâ¦
We, we, we sort of discover that
together, and it's a, it's a very much
togetherness journey, and there comes
back this community drive and connection
in- Where I'm there to just support and,
and find the, the best environment for
them or, or get them to understand their
best environment that they can flourish
Rupert Isaacson: Now you've got
Talk to us about your environments
and then talk to us about how
you help to transfer those
environments to those people's
home environments away from Ungara.
Mm.
So you've got two campuses, I know.
What, what do they look like?
What, what, what's the
physical environment there?
And yeah, how do you transfer that?
Sinya Nicol: So one environment
is the farm, and it's quite deep
in the bush in a national park.
So it takes about, I
don't know, like halfâ¦
50 minutes from the town
of Foster to get there.
It's quite deep in the bush and I found
that people need a bit of preparation.
Like, it's fun, it's like deep in the
bush, and it's, it's fine, and they
need to know that any time that they
don't feel comfortable, we can leave.
Like, some people need that
sort of sense of security.
Very much depends on the person and
what they're, what they're happy with.
And then it's just fields, like wildâ¦
It's 240 acres of land.
100 is cleared.
There's three paddocks now.
We bought it with not one fence
on it, which was a hard task
to to build all these fences.
But you know, another, another
one of those learning curves
that life throws at you.
Rupert Isaacson: In lovely
Sinya Nicol: hot climates- It's
like, "Sure, I can build a fence."
⦠Rupert Isaacson: where there's biting you.
Yeah, yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Or not just ants, like, like
red-bellied black snakes.
Like, wow.
They come out in spring,
like in the dozen.
It's crazy.
So there's a lot of, you know,
safety concerns that you sort of
have to take in consideration.
And I'm trying to find out before
people come a little bit about
their, their sensory triggers.
Some people can't stand sun, like,
you know, to be in the direct sun.
Mm-hmm.
And we just a- have organized
a space there where we can
go to get out of the sun.
There's water and, and I as well arrive
with as little needs as possible.
Like, I have looked after
myself before I get there.
I've beenâ¦
You know, I've eaten, I've beenâ¦
I've, I hadâ¦
Like, I have plenty of water with me.
Water is there available.
If it's, if it's cold I've,
I've look after myself as well.
I've got a jacket there.
I've got, you know, maybe an
extra jacket for a person if
it gets cold or windy orâ¦
and I know a little bit about
their sensory triggers and have
a, a way out pretty much so we
can always adjust the environment.
Then there's as well a yes environment.
So I arrange it in a way that there's
nothing I have to really say no to.
Every idea the child, the person
has, I say, "Sure, we can do that."
I have volunteers there to
help me keep the person safe.
Some people wanna ride, some
people never wanna ride.
Some people never considered they
wanna ride, and need a few sessions
before they decide they wanna ride.
All of this is completely fine.
A child wants to come off
the horse, that is definitely
happening right in this moment.
So you know We asking for
every bit of communication and
taking this in consideration.
And then be having not many manmade
sensory triggers just gets people
really quickly very grounded.
And I read about behaviors,
but I don't see them a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Sinya Nicol: I cannot really-
tell you about behaviors in this
environment because I just, yeah,
don't have to say no that much.
Mm.
And if I then do have
to say no, it's okay.
Like, it's because I
don't use it that much.
It's, it's fine.
So this is on the farm, but it's
Rupert Isaacson: like- After
something visible like,
"There's a snake over there."
Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
But I know my, I know my client a little
bit before they come out, and so I know,
you know, if I've got a child that runs
a lot, like we make sure we, we have
cleared that space and we are in a space
that they can run for quite some time.
240 acres is a big, big place.
So- Mm ⦠we, we wanna place
that session not close to scrub
where, where there, there could
be potentially snakes in there.
I mean, you know, you never have 100%,
but you can- Mm ⦠you can be pretty safe
if you know where you're operating from-
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.
Sinya Nicol: No, we, we- ⦠and
if you know your environment a bit
⦠Rupert Isaacson: i- in Texas it
was quite a hostile environment.
We had six species of poisonous
snake there, not to mention
various nasty insects and plants.
And as you say, we found
we didn't have to say no.
We, but we did, you know,
clear the poison ivy.
We did make a lot of vibration for
snakes, but we still encountered them.
But we found that people very quickly,
even with cognitive impairment learned
how to order that kind of natural
environment that, like you said, we
didn't see really many behaviors.
Where I did start to see behaviors, oddly
enough, was when we started working in
Germany, particularly with the kids from
the Frankfurt International School, who
were not able to come out to that much
of a natural environment that often.
And then of course as soon as I just
turned them loose in the forest isâ¦
So I stopped operating out of the
Birkenhof, out of the arena with
the stable that we were keeping
the horses at, 'cause we didn't
have our own farm at that point.
And I just started saying, "Meet
me in the forest over there."
Hun- and I found 100 meters difference, we
had a different child, complete or human.
And i- ju- even though you might think the
fields even around the stables, that's,
yeah, but there were so many restrictions.
There were safety restrictions, that
not everyone's horse was okay with kids.
There was, you didn't know when
the tractor was gonna be going
around, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.
Suddenly you're in the forest.
You know that forest, you know that area.
You can say, "Absolutely you can go.
And you can't get into trouble because
I've got Zinnia over there, I'm
over here, we're both on horseback.
Knock yourself out.
You're not gonna get away from us."
And watching kids really be able to
explore like that and range bringing
them into a completely different
mental, physical, emotional state.
So anyway, yeah, I, I really saw
the difference as, as you say.
So you're out there on this
r- rather wild- somewhat
dangerous natural environment.
You've also got water there, right?
You've got a big stretch of tidal river.
Sinya Nicol: Yes, but that is, that
is far enough away to- Yeah ⦠like
we would have to walk there-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
Sinya Nicol: Or, or, or ride there,
and then we can take the horses into
the water and there's a jetty, andâ¦
But obviously stuff like this
has to discussed beforehand.
We usually don't meet people
there for the first time.
We get to know-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: people and then, you
know, we discuss with the caretakers
as well, like parents or wherever the
child lives, and and know what we're
up against, so we can keep everyone
safe and- But nonetheless, this must
Rupert Isaacson: be magical, magical
for the people that come out.
Sinya Nicol: Yes.
It totally is.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider
taking one of our three neuroscience
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Horseboy method, now established
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We work in the saddle
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Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement
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If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
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Finally, we have taquine
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If you know anything about our
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So, this means we need to train
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And it also ends your time conflict,
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am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Sinya Nicol: We found just that a
lot of people can't afford to come
out that far because it takes a lot
of time and a lot of kilometers to
get there, and picking the people
up and bringing them to the place.
So, I have now that second place which
is much closer to town, only about a
20-minute drive, and is very beautifully
in the bush as well, but much smaller.
But now I've got the, the best of,
of both worlds, and I can get a bit
better out of the weather as well
there, and I've got a nice, like an,
an area where we can work with the
clay or painting, art, and some people
really love just being in that space.
And the horses are right there, so they,
they look out and watch you draw them.
So it's that's got, it's got a very
nice component as well, and it just,
yeah, depends on the, on the person.
And sometimes we've taken people
to both and yeah, just see, see
what works and, and listen to
what they, what they wanna do.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
You're workingâ¦
When it's with kids, are you working with
families as well or is it just the kids?
Who are the kids that
are coming out to you?
And then let's talk about the
adults that you serve as well.
Sinya Nicol: So, at this stage
I'm working mainly, at the moment
I'm working mainly with kids by
themselves and adults by themselves.
So I don't have many families out,
but I have worked in the past with
families who then were part of the play
dates, and we play tag together and
other rule-based games on horseback,
which Horse Boy method teaches nicely.
So, yeah, just works a treat
to get the family together as
a unit operating like that.
But, I
Rupert Isaacson: think, I mean, pe- At
the moment- You're obviously familiar
with Horse Boy method and all that, but I
think a lot of people aren't necessarily.
Why is it- Yeah ⦠a good thing
to work with the whole family?
A lot of places don't, right?
A lot of places it's the client.
Some places are even, they'll separate
the parents or the, from the kid
while they're working with them.
What's, what's the- Yeah ⦠what's
the benefit of family?
Sinya Nicol: So the, the whole concept
of being out in nature, having a
low amount of sensory triggers are
the right the right environment.
As, and the, and the movement of the horse
and the movement together, they, they
don't just need to do that for the short
amount of time that they are with us.
Some come fortnightly, some come
weekly, but it's still not enough.
So it's it's an opportunity to show
the parents of what they can do outside
of those sessions, how they can take
their kids and get them moving and,
a- a- and put them into, you know,
into an environment where they,
where they prepare them for learning.
And it builds an amazing amount of
connection as well between them.
They're, when they play games
together and they don't have to be
explained rules, but they've been
carried by the horse and we play ta-
like, tips and tag from the horse.
Or, or dad carries the child on their
shoulders and we play rule-based
games, like tag or what's it called?
Mm.
What time is it, Mr.
Wolf or something?
What time is it, Mr.
Wolf?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
those sorts, and Red Light,
Sinya Nicol: Green Light.
Yeah, yeah.
That's right.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: Well-
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, like those,
those games- Well, how do you
Rupert Isaacson: see the cl- the family
dynamic shift when you do this kind of
Sinya Nicol: thing?
It, it, it just takes away the
concentration of everything is a
problem and everything is hard- Mm
to them having fun together.
And this is, like, a very, very important
part as well of the whole concept
and the way I work now making a point
of involving humor and whatever that
means for the child, for the family.
And then once they're, they, they're,
they feel themselves, they're in a safe
space, they, they start to, you know,
develop their own, own sense of humor, and
that's just, it's, it's a beautiful thing
to watch and see how they all connect
with each other, not just with, like,
always a focus on, on having, having a
child that shows problematic behaviors.
And then looking after the siblings
and looking after everyone.
Though maybe mom might to needsâ¦
might to sit down, need to sit down
and just have a, have a cuppa and
just watch because she's just been
running on empty, while maybe the
sibling wants to play soccer or
wants to ride a horse themselves.
We often have siblings riding as
well, and then they love coming
out and doing it all together.
They get a job, and we find out
what they all want and what they
all need and so everyone wins.
That's any- that's the, that's the aim.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so different
from the idea of a, a kind of a
therapeutic riding center where you
go and get this therapy service.
Mm, sure, better than a kick in the face,
but it can't compare to this kind of
tribal natural setting in which the human
brain and nervous system is just hardwired
to respond positively to both the human
environment and that natural environment,
and you then bringing your horses and
your pedagogy and your social work and
your problem-solving experience in general
not to mention the methodologies that
you've learned over the years to bear.
It just means that the service is so
multifaceted and multidimensional, rather
than somebody comes here for this thing.
I remember the first Horse Boy Method
training I ever did in Germany, and I
was talking about how you have to follow
the child, and if the kid wants to get
down off the horse or not even get on the
horse, you know, 10 seconds on the horse,
if that's what, you know, that's fine.
You know, build relationship.
Don't try to go in there with therapy.
The therapy will happen if you have
the right relationship, but you're
not gonna have the right relationship
by freaking some kid out, you
know, and making them do stuff.
And I remember this one German lady
saying to me, who was, had been a
therapeutic riding instructor for a
long time, ran her and she said, "But
Rupert, if I have spent half an hour
preparing this horse for this child,
and this child wants to get down after
10 seconds, then this is a disrespect."
And I'm like, "Whoa."
I'm like, "Lady, you're
in the wrong business."
It's like you should be- Yeah, yeah
⦠what are you doing with these kids?
I mean, they're, they're just
gonna frustrate you, and you're
just gonna frustrate them.
You should be teaching- Mm ⦠like
motivated Germans how to move- Military.
Sinya Nicol: Military yeah
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, exactly.
So it tickles me that you, a German
from actually a very similar area
are there in the deep Australian
bush, you know, offering, offering
the exact opposite of that.
But of course, with this super high
standard of horsemanship as well.
I wanted to talk to you about the adults
that you serve as well, but let's just
go quickly to the, the horse stuff.
It-- I think it's useful
for people to know.
When they hear you talk about, for
example, how free-- how you make
the structures of what you do appear
effortless, but actually you are making
sure that they don't run into snakes.
You are making sure that
the ground is prepared.
You are making sure that the
environment is set up for success.
Yes.
Yes, and this is a structure, a huge
structure, but then it allows you to
be very elastic with structures within
that, so people don't feel confined
and feel the need to resist, basically.
But you've got to train the
horses in a certain way for this.
And again, I don't think everyone
is familiar with exactly how.
Can you talk us through the training
process that you put your horses through?
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, that's very much
what I learned from you guys and
it's, ⦠it just works a treat.
It's just, it's amazing.
So, first of all the horses, I
see my horses as my colleagues.
Yeah.
Mm.
They're doing a job as well.
They are co-regulating and sometimes
they show up in a way where I
think, "Hmm, maybe not today."
And so that's- Mm ⦠I find the first
part of, like, being able to, to,
like, to know your horse and know this
is, this is not a good idea today.
They eat, like, you know, they
show up in different ways on
different days, and that's okay.
But the training often gets
them to a place where they're
like, "All right, I do it."
And I know that they're gonna be okay
with it, but it ⦠that's because I
then look after their needs as well.
So- Mm ⦠you know, they get fed well,
they get looked after, like, they get
⦠and they get a, a lot of time in the herd.
They get to roam freely.
All of these things.
Like, really make sure they can be
horses amongst their friends and yeah.
And then I start with all the things you
and Liliana have taught me with, Talk us
Rupert Isaacson: through what
Sinya Nicol: they are if
you could ⦠making the-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: like, making sure ⦠I,
I start with, like, flexing their
jaws and getting them to relax and
going into a parasympathetic, into
their parasympathetic state, a
nervous system where they're relaxed.
And as well I prepare the environment,
so if, if I have a horse that's
scared of an umbrella, I don't have an
umbrella there at this point in time.
Right.
Yeah, that sort of thing as well.
So I make it all safe.
I go through the exercise of the jaw
flexion tilt their neck to the left and
the right, and then start doing lateral
work teaching them to do, to go sort
of, you know, sideways along the arena
and crossing their center line, and
it just does something amazing to, to
their brains and to their physical way
they feel and they are in their bodies.
You can really see them understanding
their own bodies, their own way they move.
And then the second part is lunging where
we build muscle and top line and the f-
as well in the lunging part, like, having
this time in there which you ca- which
you call the anarchy phase where they can
buck and rear, whatever they wanna do, and
it's okay, and it's not gonna be judged.
But then once we start the working
part, they're concentrated, and they're
working, and then they know that-
There will be a relaxing part again.
So I find that this teaches them as well
to it's, it's gonna be a while that I'm
doing this, and then I'll be, I'll be able
to relax again and go out and eat grass.
I find that has a, has
a big impact as well.
And yeah, then comes the ridden parts
which I had a, you know, a lot of lesson
and learned a lot from you guys of how to
ride and still take lessons all the time
with my horses to prepare them for that.
And then we have the long 19-inch western
saddle, which is long enough to fit k-
ch- kids in front of, in front of me.
So, this way it's not about the riding
necessarily, but we're, like, giving the
child the movement, the rocking of the
hip, which calms their nervous system
and prepares their brain for learning,
and I'm in control of the horse, so
they don't have to learn how to ride.
I, I operate the horse, and
I've got the connection.
I understand and know my horse,
and then I've got the kid in front
of me, and we're doing treasure
hunts and that sort of thing.
And I've, I practice that
with my colleague Geraldine.
It's a giraffe, a teddy bear.
So she comes in front of me first, and
the horses learn that there's something
flapping in front of me and you know,
in the saddle, and they're okay with me
throwing it, and it gets thrown back,
so a bit of desensitizing in that way.
And yeah, just doing that on a regular
basis, letting, giving them lots of
time to do free jumping and play.
And that's actually something
that I ⦠All of that I do with
the clients together as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that, that
was what- Mm-hmm ⦠I was gonna
ask you because y- I think a lot of
what you've described, it's, it's,
it's, it's a lot of work, right?
So, you know, lunging, working in hand,
all the things that you've ⦠The
flexions, the not ⦠The fitness
work, the free jumping, the crazy time.
You know, all of this takes time.
So, yeah, are you involving your clients
in this so that you can make this
part of the service that you offer?
Sinya Nicol: Very much so.
So I obviously like,
tailor it to the client.
Not everyone is able to help me with the
lunging or, or even wants to, but a lot of
them are, so then I do that in this time.
And a lot of people love the
letting the horses free jump.
It's just this, like, amount of
energy- Mm ⦠and them being able
to run wild in the arena with a whip.
And it teaches a lot of, as well,
looking into other, like, creatures'
nervous systems because I say,
"See, this horse doesn't need a lot
of pressure, so just give it- Mm
as little pressure as you can, as much
as necessary, as little as possible."
And seeing them to work out
that every horse reacts slightly
different, and that I don't need
a lot of pressure for this horse.
And them understanding the characters
of the horse and what their,
what their chara- like what their
personality is like, then often
leads to them making story from that.
And that leads, again, to conversation
about their life and their stories
and how they see things and, you
know, questions like, "Does that
look, does that sound familiar to you?
Have you seen that before somewhere?"
And they're like, "Yes, that's
exactly like, he's like me.
I've got this and that," and
it leads to conversation and
yeah, in a wonderful place.
And then the, the, in a wonderful way, and
then there's as well, like tell the horse
of what, what they are feeling or, or, or
show the horse a lot of empathy for what
they're, what they're experiencing or what
they're, you know, the shared experience
in a way, in, in their story anyway, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's, it's, it's fa- this is exactly the
learning curve we went through in Texas,
you know, when we started realizing we
had to put all this training into the
horses to, for them to be able to deliver
oxytocin effectively to a child, you
know, or to, to an adult rider up there
lunging, long reigning, in hand work.
And then we started running out of time to
do it, and I started panicking, you know.
And then I was like, "But I'm an idiot.
The, the clients should be doing this.
They, they'd be gr-
great at this," you know?
And it was almost embarrassing to find
out how much better some of my autistic
clients were at doing it than I was- Yeah
sometimes 'cause they were coming in,
again, like you said, without agenda
with just an idea, and you could see
how the horses took pleasure in working
with them or even accommodating them
and saying, "I'll let your old mate
Zach, you know, show you how it's done."
It was such an eye-opener for me, yeah.
And it, it, again, just sort of made
it way more dimensional than just here
is me, Rupert, providing this service,
to let's have a conversation about
where you'd like to go in the world
that includes this horse or includes
this forest or includes everything
and us, but where do you wanna go?
And it's, you know, you've spent
your life really, I wrote this
down while you were talking about
it, a life of- Finding solutions.
You know, if you think about all of
the stories that you told leading
up to your opening this practice it
was all about finding solutions, and
you also mentioned about comforting.
Comforting pe- I think this isn't,
this isn't looked at enough.
You know, people show up at
places like yours and mine
because they're suffering usually.
They're not showing up
because they're feeling grand.
If they're feeling grand,
they go somewhere else.
Our job is to look at what,
what is feeling grand?
How can we go back towards that place?
What do we do when we fall out of it?
So you areâ¦
And this becomes more acute
obviously as people become older
and life becomes more complex.
Your early part of this story,
you said you're 15, and you have a
friend who undergoes a psychosis.
And you are placed in an
early caretaking role.
Now you're dealing with adults that
can come in with the same psychosis.
And talk to us about some of these
people, and what are the solutions you
help them with, and how do you draw
on that early experience that you had?
Sinya Nicol: I think what I do, you
know, besides all the things I told
you before with like, you know,
making sure there's an environment
where they can, like, feel safe and
somewhat, I think I start going with,
to the place where they are at first.
So they ta- take me into their
wonderlands, whatever that looks like.
That's sometimes a very dark place, but it
can be, it can be fun as well or it'sâ¦
And I'm not judging too much or
asking for, "Is this really real?"
So for example, with that one, one man
I used to see, he used to have all these
stories about he's Aboriginal, and he
used to have all these stories about
Aboriginals and how they got hunted when
the f- first settlers came and stuff.
And we used to go into a part of
the property where the forestâ¦
And we walked, and I would call it,
oh, it's the yarning time, yeah.
It's like the story
time, storytelling time.
And I sort of tried with this to give
him a space where we can just go wild.
And I mean, who knows how much
of this actually happened exactly
like this, and he's just got a,
got a foot into this world, right?
But it doesn't really matter.
It's, it's just following him through
this, and then we're stepping out of
that forest into a world where those
stories won't really serve him too
much because he needs to operate,
okay, into a world where the, this,
these sort of stories would be judged.
But, but having a, a place where
he can go wild on those stories and
having me then just going along.
And I learned so much from him, like,
just the way he, he explained things to
me about this time and what happened.
And as I said, I'm not, no idea
where he got all of this from.
It's, you know, I don't know,
seven hundred, seven- 1788 or
whenever that all happened, yeah.
Oh, but those- I don't know
⦠Rupert Isaacson: those stories
get handed down the generations.
Yes, that's right.
And I mean, the experiences were so-
Sinya Nicol: Exactly
⦠Rupert Isaacson: were so
Sinya Nicol: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: atrociously
traumatic that people don't forget.
Yeah.
Yeah, the tribes, yeah.
Sinya Nicol: But then as well, like,
there were things with like, oh, and
the kangaroo, and like the, the way
they were, like, hunting the kangaroo,
but the kangaroo was was celebrated.
And theâ¦
Like, I can't, I can't, like,
really recall all the stories.
So they, they took crazy turns, right?
But it wasâ¦
It's not about really snapping him
out of this at this point in time,
but we stepped out of this forest and,
and then we sort of went back into-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Sinya Nicol: more of what we need today
to go shopping and to make sure we, you
know, look after ourselves in a way.
Like, we, we cook, we have showers, weâ¦
You know.
And, and, and, but having a place.
So that worked really well with him.
If I see someone else who, who is not as
diving into those stories as much, and
we more talk about what- What thought
patterns make sense and others that don't.
So don't believe everything you
think sort of a thing, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, there's things there
that, that your mind goes off
with that might not serve you.
It, it brought youâ¦
It, it served you in the past,
but maybe not today anymore.
And, like, just asking those questions
and letting them work it out themselves
of what, what serves them and what
doesn't without having too much judgment.
Like, I think it's about
walking that together, you know?
Being there as- Walking
Rupert Isaacson: that together.
I like that
⦠Sinya Nicol: asâ¦
It's about connection.
Walking that together.
Yeah, everyone looking for connection.
Rupert Isaacson: How do the
horses get involved when you're
working with people like this?
Sinya Nicol: Very interesting.
So some horsesâ¦
different horses show up in different-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
.. Sinya Nicol: for different people.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Sinya Nicol: And react
differently to different people.
Is that right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: It'sâ¦
I'm finding it still really
hard to put this into words.
It's, it's hard to explain because
it's like I'm just in awe all the time.
Like, "Wow."
Just
Rupert Isaacson: free thought
because I think- So the other-
I think this is the world we all exist in.
Just, just don't even try to structure it.
Just fire it out.
Sinya Nicol: So the other day, we,
I, we were talking, I can't evenâ¦
Like, no, no idea what about, and then
my client went into, like, a kneeling
position, and I kneeled down with her,
and she was playing with the sand,
and all the horses were free at this
time, like, just in the, in the arena.
We were in conversation and,
like, just she kneeled down.
I kneeled down, and then all
the horses came over and just
lied down next to us and rolled.
I like, I actually had to get her
sort of out of the way a little bit
because we would've been, likeâ¦
You know, they're, like, rolling back and
forth, and the hoof's going everywhere.
I'm like, "Oh, we might have to
move out of the way a little bit."
Just one pony stood and watched
us while everyone else rolled.
It was crazy.
It was, like, three horses
rolling at, like, so close to
us, and one horse watching, and
I'm like, "What just happened?"
It's, yeah, stuff like this or horses
come close and just, like, start yawning
and, you know, like, releasing tension
is probably what, what happens there.
But they're just, they're
just hanging out if they can.
Rupert Isaacson: When, when this
happened with the horses coming and
rolling after you guys were kneeling
down in the sand and talking, what
was the client's takeaway from that?
How did she-
Sinya Nicol: Sheâ¦
I was, I was like, "Oh, wow," and
she's like, "Oh," because I said,
"Look, they're rolling, and they're
showing us their belly, so they're
very vulnerable, what they're showing."
And she was just like, "Oh,
they're really trusting us."
And she was very amazed by the trust
that the horses have to us, towards us.
Rupert Isaacson: And was this someone
who's dealing with trust issues?
Sinya Nicol: Trust issues.
Hmm.
I think it's more about that
she's a bit more worried
about that she's not a burden.
It's, it's a bit- Hmm
it's, it goes more into that- Well, that
is a trust issue ⦠into that direction
Rupert Isaacson: It's a
different type of trust.
Yeah, yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
That's very- Yeah, and
they came freely, right?
Yeah, and they came free- freely.
They, they don't have to come.
You know what I mean?
Like, this is what I pointed out.
I'm like, they could- They chose
Rupert Isaacson: to come and
Sinya Nicol: hang out with us
they could, they could be over there and
just roll there if they needed to roll.
Mm.
But they didn't.
They came here, and they picked this
spot to roll with us, and yeah, it's,
Mm ⦠it has profound effects at work.
And- It's, ⦠as, like, often I'm just
there, and I actually just facilitate
the environment and things just happen.
And what I learned as well is the
power of pause, to not having to do
something all the time because sometimes
a bit of stillness works and someâ¦
and stuff unfolds.
And that's what I was saying
with as well the agenda, right?
Like, I mean, I've got an overall
agenda maybe for a person.
Like, they, they come
with certain goals, right?
Often it's a s- it's a, it's a life
that's somewhat you know, feels
comfortable or is not full of suffering.
That's, like, the bigger, bigger thing.
But the way is is, is such a different
route of how to, how people get there.
So different personalities have different
ways of what this is, and letting
things unfold, and then taking, them
taking the lead of what they wanna
do more And following that, that- It
Rupert Isaacson: is,
Sinya Nicol: it is
that brings healing
Rupert Isaacson: It, it
brings healing, exactly.
And I think there's a massive
difference between healing and cure,
and there's a reason why we have
these two different words, you know?
When I first went to Mongolia and I
was being interviewed by journalists
after I came back, and they're
saying, "So you went out there looking
for a cure for your son's autism?"
No, no, no.
No, no.
I went looking for healing for
certain negative symptoms that
were making him suffer a lot.
His incontinence, his tantruming,
his gut pain, his, you know, the,
the, the these sorts of things.
But his autism, no, I didn't
wanna cure that at all.
Of course, every journalist then wrote
an article saying, "Father went to seek a
cure for," you know, and then- So people
will project whatever they project.
But the fact is there is a big
difference because I think healing
implies a sort of alleviation of
or amelioration of the negative
symptoms of something that is getting
in your way, may causing suffering.
But it doesn't surgically
remove the condition.
That, to my mind, is cure.
Because if you, if you did
surgically remove somebody's autism
or schizophrenia, and they used to
try to do that in the past, what,
what you're left with is a zombie.
And one of the things about having spent
so much time with indigenous cultures,
and I want to go here in the next part
of this conversation, is that whenever
I have been in the Kalahari or Mongolia
or places where ⦠or Queensland, where
indigenous healing is still practiced
very strongly, almost always the person
who is practicing that shows symptoms of
some neuropsychiatric condition or other,
usually autism, often schizophrenia.
And you realize that within those
cultures, that's a job qualification.
That the idea is that they have such
acute emotional sensitivity that
they're then targeted for training,
usually at adolescence with a sort of
unbroken tradition going back millennia,
where whether you are skeptical or
not skeptical about those types of
healing, the fact is people use them
when they get sick, and they get better.
And people like my uncle, Dr.
Peter Isaacson, who was head of pathology
at University College Hospital in London,
for example, had no problem with that.
He said, "Yeah, no, of course.
There have been all sorts of psychic
and spiritual technologies that have
been involved over millennia by humans,
because we're clever to deal with how
to activate our immune systems and how
to make the most out of environments,
and that what doesn't work in one
environment- Works often very well in
another environment, so you'll get someone
who's schizophrenic maybe even living in
care, but i- in our culture now, selling
their artwork for millions of dollars.
This goes on, you know?
I forget her name, the very
successful Japanese artist who
is in that position, for example.
Think about Vincent Van Gogh, you
know, c- mad as a hatter, you know?
But everyone wants his
pictures on the wall.
So and everyone finds contact
with his pictures healing.
You know, y- y- you can't look at
Starry Night and not feel better.
Yet in our culture, maybe not so much.
So I like the fact that you were saying,
I wrote this also down when you said, "If
you have an agenda, it's trying to show
people how to navigate in our world," not
that story forest that you can provide.
That's the outlet.
But a l- a life wi- where lessâ¦
A life with less suffering, you said, and
preparing the environment to support this.
I, I think that's profound, and
I didn't want that to get lost,
so I'm going to say it again.
This is from Zinnia, my friends.
She's trying to help people findâ¦
It's a life of finding solutions, which
includes also comforting people, to
find a life with less suffering, and
preparing the environment to support this
That's some gnarly shit, though.
All right.
Now, you mentioned that this guy
that you went into the storytelling
forest with was the Worami?
Is it?
Sinya Nicol: Worimi, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Worimi.
Worimi.
I love that.
It's like, what am I?
The what am I?
With the Worimi.
Wor- Wo- Worimi then, eh?
The, the, the, the, the
Worimi- ⦠aboriginal people,
indigenous to your area.
And I, as you know, took Rowan to
further north from you in the Daintree
Rainforest to see a healer back in
2008 called Mooks, who's still a
healer up there, still operating, who
achieved a profound change in my son.
So what contact have you had
with the Aboriginal culture?
Where you are, the name
Ungarra comes from the Worimi.
I presume that this man that was
seeing you was probably from the
same- Yeah ⦠or a related tribe.
How has this informed your practice, Anna?
Sinya Nicol: It made, it makes
me curious, you know, about like,
wanting to know, to know more.
And I felt very, very lucky to be able
to be part of his storytelling like this.
Other than that, I haven't had much
more, because that was an insight
that I don't think you usually get
that much- Mm ⦠of being taken
into this, like, you know, world.
Which, I mean, I, I took him there and
he took me there, you know what I mean?
It was like a very much- Absolutely
⦠a, a, a, a thing together.
Like I, I said like this, "Let's go
into this forest," and he, like opened
up this whole storytelling universe.
And I never had, like I haven't had an
experience like this again, you know?
I, I used to see him for
probably a year every week.
So we, yeah, done a- What became of him?
⦠done a fair share.
Sorry?
Rupert Isaacson: What became of him?
Sinya Nicol: Oh, he, he ended up running
out of funding, and actually now he's
with someone that is an Aboriginal
as well, and I think that's, that's
they're doing art together, Aboriginal
art, and I think it really connects
him to his culture, and it's brilliant.
So it's,
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect
⦠Sinya Nicol: yeah, exactly.
It's what serves him now-
I- ⦠you know what I mean?
It's,
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Well, the re- he took you into, or
you took each other into a forest,
which is his ancestral forest.
Because I'm just looking,
I'm looking up the Awaraami.
That's why I'm looking
down here at my cellphone.
I'm now looking up the Awaraami people
Aboriginal Australians who are the
traditional custodians of the land of
the coastal region of New South Wales,
stretching from the Hunter River north
to Forster and inland to Barrington Tops.
You, you went together into
his people's ancestral forest
and ancestral stories came out.
Did, how much did you feel in that
situation that you were the facilitator,
and how much did you feel he was?
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, that's right.
I don't know.
It was like a 50/50 thing there, I think.
Like we just went together, you know.
This, it's not evenâ¦
It's just like walking a story together.
It's just like that.
And, and it's not just us, but it's
as well all the animals in there, and
the kangaroos and, you know, like,
and he, he, he would talk about the
kookaburra and and its call and, and
you should never put a- What did he say?
What did he say
Rupert Isaacson: about the
kookaburra and its call?
Sinya Nicol: Oh, he said the kookaburra,
you gotta be careful with the kookaburras
and they, they can be a nasty bunch.
They tell you a lot about what's,
what's happening and, you know, they
tell you a lot about the weather
and they tell you as well when there
are threats and snakes and stuff.
But they're, they'reâ¦
He always referred to the kookaburras
if they've got the like a,
they've got a mean strikes to them
apparently, and you shouldn't put
a kookaburra feather in your head.
A hat, sorry.
So, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So trickster,
trickster energy perhaps.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
When, when, when he says they got
a mean streak, did he tell you any
stories about how that might manifest?
Sinya Nicol: No, not really.
He wouldâ¦
As well, if I would ask more questions,
he just then sometimes wouldn't answer.
Like, I can't- Mm ⦠I don't know.
I can't say.
Like, I ask him something, and it's just,
like, goes like an echo in the forest.
Oh, oh.
It's like, okay, that
didn't, that didn't hit home.
Rupert Isaacson: Did he ask you
Sinya Nicol: the stories- I don't know.
I can't
⦠Rupert Isaacson: as well
about your time and place?
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
We, we as well done a lot of art
together, just, you know, painting
and he would then ask me, so
what, what my culture looks like.
And he was very interested as well in
American culture, which I, you know, I
couldn't tell him a lot about, but that
was what, what he was very drawn to.
So we talked- Native American culture
or- ⦠a little bit about that andâ¦
Yes, Native American cultures.
Yes.
He said that they're very similar-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Sinya Nicol: cultures.
And we just looked up a few things
and just, you know, Googled things
and looked at pictures- And learned
together ⦠together and yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Just
Sinya Nicol: with him.
Did you talk to him
Rupert Isaacson: about the
darker side of Germany?
Sinya Nicol: A little bit, but
not, ⦠He would refer back to ⦠I,
I would, I would talk a little bit
about, you know, the Second World
War and stories that my grandmother
used to tell me when she grew up.
And yeah, he was, he was interested
and was listening and stuff, and then,
yeah, telling, telling me parallels
to, to just maybe stories of suffering,
you know, as, as a common ground.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Common humanity.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and it's interesting,
you know, we talked a little bit a while
ago about those beautiful German forests
and how they are open to everybody.
Anyone can go in them.
They're vast, and they're full
of wildlife, and very healing.
And perhaps necessary for a people
carrying a lot of collected trauma
not just of what happened there
but also what they themselves did.
You know, it, it's ⦠There's, I think-
Sinya Nicol: That's right.
A lot of shame ⦠yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: a lot of shame.
A
Sinya Nicol: lot of shame.
Rupert Isaacson: It's,
it's, ⦠This is one thing that's
not talked about enough, I think.
You know, and when I'm doing work with
active service veterans, particularly
some of the Special Forces people that
we've worked with in the Bundeswehr in
Germany and in the UK as well with the
Marines and some other groups with our
Takim program mostly, one of the things
which often gets said to me is, "Rupert,
you know, you think the trauma is what
happened to you," and this is someone
who had his face blown off, you know?
And he said, "That's part of it
obviously," but he said, "A lot of
it is the trauma of having killed
people, and it ⦠you cannot
understand that unless you've done it."
And you know, I have, I have a friend
who, for example, he, he was in a combat
situation where it was in the dark.
They were Special Forces.
They were first in.
He fell into a foxhole.
There was an enemy soldier in there.
He killed him with a knife immediately.
When dawn broke, he saw that this was
a boy about 17 years old, and he sort
of hasn't been able to sleep since.
And it's very hard to quantify this
type of thing, and I would imagine
that in Australia, similar to my
family in South Africa, many of whom
were also perpetrators of injustice
in the USA as well, you know, the,
the- large-scale genocides that
happened there, not to mention slavery.
You know, it's, it's when you see how
dysfunctional life can be in the American
South, you know, among those who would
have been the slave-owning class, when
you see how dysfunctional life can be
in South Africa among those who were
the takers and conquis- conquerors of
the land, when you see the same thing in
Australia, when you see the same thing as
anywhere that's gone through the colonial
experience, and then you've got all the
people of this generation now popping up
saying, "Well, here we all are together
What are we gonna do with this experience?
And then people in the West saying,
"Well, gosh, we don't understand that
because that's not our experience."
And saying, "Well, no, it is.
Look at World War II in Europe.
Look at, you know, recent Civil
Rights' history in, in the USA."
I think that when-
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, and I think then f-
showing compassion towards it, right?
Like, to f- to, to ask more
questions, like and making me
understand how this feels, right?
For- Mm ⦠for someone.
What happened in you?
Like, what is, what is happening for you?
What was happening for
you in that situation?
Like, staying curious about it
and, and, and being able to give a
feedback, like, that, that youâ¦
That looks to me like you're
very distressed with this.
What, what does it feel like?
And that,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Sinya Nicol: that, yeah, common,
common ground there, right?
To, to- Yeah ⦠to understand what's-
Common humanity ⦠what's happened.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: No, absolutely.
You know, even with you know,
Ileana and her family, you know,
half my family's Jewish, right?
Even though they weren't in Europe during
the war, they were in South Africa.
They obviously went through pogroms, which
is why they ended up in South Africa.
Famously, one of them got on the
wrong boat, wanted to go to America,
but his English was so bad, in
Vilnius, when he got, he ended up
in South Africa because he gotâ¦
Didn't understand where
the boat was going.
Ac-
Sinya Nicol: accidentally.
Oi.
Rupert Isaacson: It's one of
the better family stories.
But nonetheless, you know, when I was
seeing old family albums and there
were, you know, Ileana's grandparents
in their Wehrmacht German Army,
World War II uniforms, and that part
of me just went, "F- " You know?
"They did that to my people."
You know.
And then, yeah, but what better way
to heal that than by creating family
together, and sort of realizing that
these were also somebody's father,
somebody's son, somebody's brother.
You know, and whatever mad bastard sent
them into that, and however much they
did or didn't buy into- That's right
the ideology.
I'm sure some of them did, you know?
People are only human.
But nonetheless,
Sinya Nicol: And the, and the
importance- ⦠they went above and
beyond ⦠of having, of having to talk
about it so it doesn't happen again.
Yeah.
Indeed.
And the, all of the suffering, and
the shame, and all of, all of what
happened there, I think that's
a responsibility we have, yeah?
To, to keep that story alive.
So-
Rupert Isaacson: It's
Sinya Nicol: true ⦠we learn and we-
Rupert Isaacson: Y- yeah,
Sinya Nicol: I think
if shame- ⦠carry it
Rupert Isaacson: to the next generation
⦠if shame is not addressed, then it
really can happen again, because
when people feel shame, violence is
often a reaction to shame, right?
I'm, it drives me so mad to
feel this pain of this shame.
I kill you now.
You know?
You could almost argue that that's a bit
what's happening with the rise of the
far right in Germany again as we speak.
It's sort of maybe a reaction
to undealt with shame.
I don't know.
But I think with the work that you're
doing really does address this.
Yeah, talk a b- let's talk a bit more
about this actually, because you, you,
you're coming out of the German experience
and now into this experience post-colonial
Again, can you just free wrap a little
bit what it feels like to be this
girl growing up post two generations,
post-World War II Germany, taking that
out and now in the work that you're doing.
I think this is useful for people to hear.
Sinya Nicol: So see, I had a grandmother
that was an amazing storyteller.
She had this gift where she started
talking, and everyone would just like, you
know, hang there and just wanna hang on
her lips to hear every word of that story.
And I spent a lot of time with her,
and I think she made me understand
that there are more sides to a
story than just what you read about.
So I think she was five when
the Second World War finished.
Sorry, started, and she, she had toâ¦
Like, she told me all these stories where
there was an alarm, and they had to run
home from school, and they got shot at.
And a good friend of her passed away,
like, you know, all of those things.
And she said they were told in school
that Black people eat children.
That was what she was taught.
So she said she believed it, of course.
Yeah.
Were you, like, you know, six,
seven years old, that's what
it is, what, what the truth is.
You believe what the teacher
Rupert Isaacson: says.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Exactly.
So when the Allies came in, which was
in our area, the Americans, there was a,
a Black man on a tank, and he droveâ¦
They drove towards her, and she
stood with her back against the
wall, and she said she was thatâ¦
She s- she thought he's gonna
come, and he's gonna eat her now.
So she, like, wet herself, and she said
it was so embarrassing to stand there
and know now it's this, "I'm gonna die."
Like, "We made it that far, and now
this man is gonna kill, like, eat me."
And he give, he gave her a chewing gum
So she says she, like, and then they
left because she was just stunned.
She couldn't move.
She couldn't do anything.
They tried to talk to her, but
they were only speaking English,
and she just stood there with her
chewing gum, and they left again.
They left her alone because they could
see she wasn't able to react to anything.
And then she said she went home with
this chewing gum, and she said that
she can so remember that moment of
thinking, "Everything I learned is wrong."
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Sinya Nicol: Everything I had,
like someone told me, "You can't
trust what anyone says because it
could all be completely different."
And she said after this,
things snowballed into so many
things were so wrong, you know?
But, I mean, she carried
a lot of shame as well.
Like, they, there wasn't any
photos in my family with the, that
were shown around with the, the,
her brothers in their uniform.
She's like, "Oh, no, they were in the SS.
We can't talk about this.
This is terrible what happened here.
Never can this happen again."
But she, she always used to say that
to me, "We have a responsibility
to talk about this because we
can never let this happen again."
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
I, I, I have these conversations when
I'm not wearing my therapy hat, I'm
wearing my dressage hat about the old
masters particularly the, the old dead
dudes' books for classical training,
and sometimes I'm looking at the old
German books, and particularly the
German books from the 20th century.
And it's, I was doing a, a look at
Podhascky's who, who was the guy who
ran the Spanish Riding School of Vienna
after the war but had been somewhat
protected by the Wehrmacht even though
he was Austrian, not German, blah, blah,
blah, and to some degree benefited from
that to get a whole sort of stud thing
going, horse breeding, training thing
going in an area of what's called the
Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, which was,
of course, cleared out by Hitler of
all the indigenous Czechs, and Germans
put back in there, and so on and so on.
And I remember reading that
book and going, "But why aren't
you referring to this at all?"
Right?
Like, you were there when
those people were cleared out.
There's not a word.
There's a, stuff in here about
the shoulder in, but- Could we
not have one short paragraph on,
actually, this wasn't a good thing?
You know, and okay, we were
all caught up in it, butâ¦
And then the other book I was looking at
was, is called HDV 12, which is the German
cavalry manual, which started in, I think
they started producing it in the 1870s.
But the last one was produced in,
quite fairly recently and in the '70s,
I think, and then updated recently
with the help of, oh, help me.
Who's the, what's the name of
the German vet who was blew the
whistle on Rollkur to make us allâ¦
Horcht, is it?
I'll, I'll, I'll look himâ¦
Anyway, in the dressage
community he's well known.
And so we've got to be more compassionate
towards our horses, and he was of
course a Friend of, and to some
degree protege of, this last cavalry
officer who updated the HDB 12 books.
I'm, I'm reading it.
Now, this'll be interesting 'cause it
will have, you know, sort of anti-Rollkur,
more compassionate horsemanship overlaid
on top of the old sort of German thing.
And I'm reading all the exercises
and, yeah, they're great exercises.
And, oh look, this is cool, they say
you should train on a 10-degree slope,
you know, with your arena to teach
the horse how to balance himself.
Oh, that's really cool.
Oh, and look, they're talking about
the importance of herd structures and
especially for horses that are stabled
a lot 'cause they've got to go out on
campaigns and all be good, to be all
tied up together in the forest for
months at a time, and blah, blah, blah.
So they do all this work
socially with horses.
And oh, that's really good, really good.
And then you get these little asides
where he talks about when they
mobilized into Poland, because he
was in the war, this guy, and h- kind
of effectively how exciting it was.
I'm like, "Oh, but dude, that was an
illegal war, illegal invasions under
a false flag, and you guys went in
there and you killed a lot of Poles."
And then-
Sinya Nicol: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: then you went over
in the eastern front and although
you weren't part of the SS cavalry
unit, which we know was in the front
line of doing the big nasties, they
were mopping up guerrilla resistance.
Well, you just invaded Ukraine.
You've just invaded western Russia,
and the people are resisting you.
You're mopping up.
What does mopping up mean?
I know what mopping up means.
I grew up w- against the background
of the wars in Zimbabwe and Angola
and pl- I know what mopping up means.
And okay, you were a young
man, you were under orders, you
were in the army, you wereâ¦
But where is just one
paragraph on, "You know what?
That, that wasn't great, and I
feel bad about that," you know.
"Now back to the horse."
So when I was giving these YouTube
pressies on it, I, I, I mentioned
this and I said, "I'm not telling
you not to read these books 'cause
these are sound books on horsemanship.
Germany's one of the great
horse cultures of the world.
You should absolutely
learn from them, of course.
And it would be nice if blah, blah, blah."
And I frankly have seen that harsh
attitude taken out on horses and
people in Germany, you know, in
the, in the equestrian culture.
Absolutely.
You remember old Heiner at the
Birkenhof, you know, that old Prussian
dude who was screaming like- Yeah
like Hitler.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
There was a lot of anger around, right?
Like the, that, that- There was so much
anger ⦠defensive of, of like shame
and setting these, like, boundaries.
"Don't you come close
to my inner shame core."
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Sinya Nicol: And reacting with, with all
of this, like, yelling and screaming and-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah ⦠yeah.
It was.
And, and, and, and, you know,
keeping horses effectively in
solitary confinement and, you know.
But when I mentioned this in the
YouTube videos, it's interesting how
people went, "Well, you can't shame
these people, and you can't doâ¦"
I'm like, "I'm not.
I'm actually telling
you to read their book."
I'm just saying It would be good to
have at least a few lines on, "Yeah,
we were young and stupid," you know.
"What did we know?"
I don't know, something like that.
So yeah, it, it-
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, maybe it's
not quickly explained, right?
Like, it needs a lot of-
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe
⦠Sinya Nicol: explanation to
grasp what happened there.
Rupert Isaacson: I did actually talk to
the publisher of those books, though,
who's a friend of mine, Richard Williams,
and said, "You know, maybe actually we
need to update with just a little bit
of that from an outside commentary."
It'll probably be me.
Sure.
Yeah.
You know, just to say,
"We're not shaming you.
We're just saying this happened.
This was the history."
You know, it's funny, when one of the
people who had a go at me, and I said,
"If I had been writing a book, if, if
this was me r- responding to one of the
17th century books where I'm talking
about the cataclysmic religious wars and
all the atrocities that happened there
that caused the military revolution, that
is why we have all the French words in
dressage, and I talk about the atrocities
there, you'd have no problem with it
because it's further back in history.
It's just that this
still, still feels raw."
Did you feel, with your friend
in The Story Forest, that-
It was still raw for him, that
colonial dispossession story.
And then what-
aspect, like do, do, do, d- did he feel
in some ways it was still happening?
That, like, time almost
vertical, past, present, and
future happening simultaneously?
W-
Sinya Nicol: No, well, I'm not sure
if, if he would- I don't mean to say it
was- ⦠say it was still happening, but
he was very much connected to, to what
has, what that h- how that has transferred
through the generations, through his
mom and his dad, and through him.
And that you know, he talked a lot about
those mountains when, you know, "My mom's
from over this mountain, and Dad's from
over this mountain, and we got pushed
this way, like over this mountain."
And so it just, it's, it's very
close to his, to his like, to, to
him understanding where he comes
from and putting him into relation to
I- i- into, into his environment, right?
Like into his historical environment,
like to, to put him into place I find
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: like a mapping maybe
Rupert Isaacson: Mapping.
When I was doing my human rights
work in, with the Bushmen in the
Kalahari, one of the things we had
to do was cultural mapping where
you went with people and they said,
"These are our burial sites here.
This is where we would gather
this type of wild food.
This is where we would hunt
this type of game," da, da, da.
And you would build up enough of a
consensus of different individuals-
marking these locations on a map that
you could then take it to a court and
say, "This is evidence of continuous
indigenous land use over X number of
centuries, therefore there is ownership,
therefore you should give it to them."
It sounds like you were almost
being put through a process of that.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, we did do
actually a lot of mapping.
Like, we drew a lot of pictures ofâ¦
And he showed me a lot of symbolisms
of, you know, like, men sitting
around a fire, women sitting around
a fire, and this is the way they
take, and this is how you draw that.
And I've got- I've got it somewhere
where all of his symbols explained
on what means what, you know.
This is, like, where the fish are,
and this is where, this is kangaroo
paw prints, and this is emu prints,
and, like, all of those symbolisms.
That was, like, amazing.
Like, we've done a, we've
done a fair bit of that
Rupert Isaacson: So you call your
center, the, 'cause you've got two
of them, Ngara, talking together.
Mm-hmm.
This is story, right?
And w- I think what- Yeah ⦠what
we've been hitting on here is that
healing really is story, right?
I- there's always a story involved,
even if it's just something as simple
as somebody comes with a dilemma to
you, or to the doctor, or to their mom,
or whoever, and then ex- solutions are
explored until something is found that
moves the story onto the next chapter
Sinya Nicol: You know what, what comes to
mind there is that a lot of people come
with a lot of rejection for themselves.
And I find if they rethink their story
in a way that what they've done was,
is what kept them safe at the time
and kept them going at the time and
served them at the time, they change
their story and they can integrate it
into who they are and take it within.
So it changes, you know?
It's I think is it where Schiller
always says "If you change the
thing, the way you look at things,
the things you look at change."
It's a, it's a- Mm ⦠it's
a quote from someone.
And I find that is a lot, there's a
lot of truth in that because they start
changing their story and understanding
that the way they acted or the way
what, like, the- they're integrating
those parts into their story now.
So, so through looking at it in that
different light, they're starting
to, to change their story and that
has a profound effect I find often.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's funny, people say
you can't change the past.
And the past is, I think, why people show
up at places like yours when the past
begins to affect the present to of the
point that the present feels unlivable.
So therefore looking at
the future seems hopeless.
What do we do?
Well, you go to Zi- Uncle Zinnia's place,
right, and with her amazing ponies and
her sons, and you go into that healing
forest and you benefit from all of that
preparatory work that Zinnia has done.
But what comes clear from what you're
saying is although you can't change the
past, you can heal it which I think is
changing the past to some degree, and
particularly when it comes down to shame.
That's so interesting that if you, as you
just said, if you can say, "Well, at the
time, effectively, that was the best I
could do, and those are the reasons why."
Can I have compassion for that?
And therefore, can I have compassion for
anyone else who's going through that?
And can I, the person who did go
through that, and did do those things
or feel those things or say those
things or whatever, can I now help
other people who are trying to recover
from that because I have been there?
It, that would seem to me to be healing.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
For sure.
Sharing story, exactly, and
even, like, just sharing your
own story and other people.
And that's the same what
happens with the horses.
They are there, and they're, in a way,
people watch them and find their own story
in them as if they shared their story.
I feel like- Give us an example
of that ⦠the herd structure
Rupert Isaacson: That, that springs out
Sinya Nicol: Oh, there's like
a, you know, they have like a
certain pecking order in the herd.
Someone's at the bottom of that.
And there's people there who can
relate to this pony and says, "I
always got picked on," and that
feels like this and like that.
And we can talk about what
did you do, and he alwaysâ¦
like, this little pony always goes
and bites every other horse in
the bum as if to say, "Come on.
Are you gonna kick me now or what?"
And there's something
really funny in this.
And they find their own little
examples of what happened to them
and how they felt in the situation.
And, you know, then this pony has a
very g- close bond now to one of the
horses that's slightly higher in that
pecking order, but they still always
hang together and groom each other.
And there's often someone like that in
their story that was there in theirâ¦
you know, was, that they could feel
comfort or, and when they felt this,
like, rejected by, by a group, say.
So that's one example, yeah-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Sinya Nicol: of, of what
happens between them
Rupert Isaacson: So the question
now is where does the story go?
What's next?
You've had a, a damned interesting life.
It's only getting-
Mm ⦠more interesting.
What's next for Ingara?
What's next for you?
Don't,
Sinya Nicol: don't scare me.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's say
interesting in the best ways.
Yes, okay, fine, yeah.
Not interesting in the Chinese may you not
have to live- ⦠in that way, but yeah.
Sinya Nicol: No, look, I've ⦠It's it
was, yeah, it's, What do you wanna do with
Rupert Isaacson: it now?
Sinya Nicol: I don't, I'm not
quite sure, but wherever it takes
me- Learn to discipline yourself
not to take so many horses ⦠I'm
pretty happy with, with, with.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I learned that.
Like, I'm not taking any more horses.
Like, that's it.
No more.
And because as well, like, you
don't give your horses away, right?
Like, you got them now for life.
Yeah.
So the bills keep coming in, you know.
They wanna be fed.
They need all differentâ¦
I mean, you know that well.
I do.
They need all different things and-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: once you go
down that rabbit hole.
I just go with the flow.
I just really like the place where I'm
at, and I love going to work every day.
I really do.
It's it's an amazing work.
I, it'sâ¦
And I go every day with where the client
needs to go, wants to go, and, What,
what is missing, I find what a lot
of people need, is they want to have
their what they ⦠So I work often
out what people are good at, yeah.
What are their talents, what
are their wants and likes, what
they, what do they wanna do.
And then once we've found
that or something, they would
like to get work, paid work.
And I find this is one of the key
components that I would like to implement,
to be able to pay people for work
that they maybe do around the farm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Sinya Nicol: That would be probably
a step that I would like to take.
To-
Rupert Isaacson: Are you aware of the
work that within the horse boy community,
people like Joelle Dunlap and, Yes, yes
Joy Hicks and others have been doing for
apprenticeships and vocational training?
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Also in Liskinagh
in Ireland this is happening.
Are you in contact with
those people trying to figure
out how you might do that?
Sinya Nicol: I have been talking
at the you know, on Ireland,
where we went to the Thrive day.
I've been talking to Joelle then.
And I mean, it's about funding
and Joelle being an amazing person
who knows how to, how to get this
funding to then get people into work.
So she gave me a tip or two.
So I'm now sort of, you know, trying
to put my mind to these things and
change structures in a way so we
can receive donations and then maybe
can build up a program like that.
Rupert Isaacson: But, Is there
state backing for anything
like that in Australia?
Sinya Nicol: There are ways of doing it.
I just haven't really understood the
whole sort of way of how to go about it.
The problem is a little bit that I am
working full time, having three children,
and I'm trying to do it- Who isn't?
Yeah.
What are you doing?
Do it all right.
And yeah, yeah.
So it takes just a bit of time, I guess-
That's it ⦠to really ⦠But I've
got, I've got a very good community,
and I work very closely with another
operator called Fresh Tracks and
with a very like-minded organization
that does a similar thing that I do.
What's the name
Rupert Isaacson: of that,
of that organization?
Sinya Nicol: Fresh Tracks.
Rupert Isaacson: Fresh Tracks.
Sinya Nicol: And he ⦠Yeah,
and they do a very similar thing
to what I do, but with surfing.
Yes.
So I work very closely with Fresh Tracks
and we are entertaining thoughts and
ideas and it's in the making, so to speak.
But yeah, things do take time.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, they do.
But they also need to so
that they percolate properly.
I love the fact that you're working
with a surfing organization.
As you know, with Horse Boy, we did this
actually quite a lot when we were in
with different surfing organizations in
California and North Carolina hooking
them up with the local th- you know,
therapeutic riding people and saying,
"Let's add this whole component."
Particularly too, 'cause as, as
you know, one of the difficulties
with the equine side is that
it's almost entirely female run.
The clientele is often
male, and there areâ¦
there's a lack of sort of
tribal male role models.
But within the surfing community or
mountain sports community or any of
those things, it's plenty of dudes.
And, That's
Sinya Nicol: right.
Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: it balances
things out a bit, I feel.
Sinya Nicol: For sure.
And, Now I lost my train of thought.
Yeah, so, so we, we've really worked well
in well together and now I've got it back.
It's not always about horses either.
So I've, I see one client, he's
got an absolute obsession with Land
Cruisers, the Toyota Land Cruisers.
So we work a lot on the Land Cruisers
that we have happened to have on the farm.
So we're working through these
obsessions, yeah, and then-
Yeah ⦠mixing it up as well.
Like on a, on a hot, scorching hot day,
it's definitely nicer to be by the beach.
Yes.
I'm now and I'm now as well working
on getting my horses used to and
being very relaxed on the beach, so
then I can float my horses to the
beach, and then they can be there as
well, and we can ride by the beach.
So there's like a million of
opportunities all to be discovered
and you know, implemented.
Horses trained and all of that.
But it's, yeah, it's pretty exciting.
I canâ¦
It's really an amazing work to do.
Rupert Isaacson: How are
you finding your funding?
Sinya Nicol: So mainly through the
NDIS National- Yeah ⦠s- National
Insurance Disability Insurance Scheme.
Mainly through them and then
the DCJ, which is the Department
of Community and Justice, and
then some people pay privately.
And this is something where I would
like to be able to take donations so
some of the people who can't afford
and are not part of the disability
insurance scheme can, you know, have
have funding, so they can do a few
sessions and- So are you working on
Rupert Isaacson: becoming a
charity with that in mind?
Sinya Nicol: Yes yes, that's,
that's the idea of, yeah, maybe.
Rupert Isaacson: When will you be
Sinya Nicol: able
Rupert Isaacson: to take donations?
Sinya Nicol: I'm not sure.
Rupert Isaacson: It's okay.
Is it like a two-year process?
I haven't really- Is
it like a year process?
Do you know?
Is it-
Sinya Nicol: I'm hoping, I'm hoping
mid of next year that we've got
something worked out regarding that.
That would be good.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think what
we- Yeah ⦠should do then is when
you do let me know, and let's do
another revisit podcast and sort of
big that up and get that out there.
Yeah ⦠this is now, what September
2026 that we're doing this, and I
think in another week or 10 days- two
weeks, I's actually presenting at-
Sinya Nicol: Ah
the equine Jane Faulkner's equine-
Yes ⦠assisted therapy Australia event.
Equine
Rupert Isaacson: Assisted-
Yes ⦠Therapy Australia Conference.
Yeah.
So I'll be doing it-
Sinya Nicol: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: virtually obviously.
But I think it would be good then if
we do a return match there, and you are
then at that point open for funding,
it's a very logical thing to say, "Well-"
Sinya Nicol: That's
Rupert Isaacson: true â¦"Pauline
is over there."
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Go find
Sinya Nicol: her.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's easy, right?
It's easy to get caught up in just
your everyday life and, like, you know,
everyday work, and then go, "Hey, I need
to turn my head towards this thing."
Rupert Isaacson: Well, the equine
assisted field is all-encompassing
because it involves equines.
Sinya Nicol: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
You got your work done.
All right.
So Ngara, talking together,
we're at the two-hour mark here.
I think it's a good moment
to sort of wrap it up.
People will want to know
how they can find you.
People want to know how
they can talk to you.
Can people come and get
trained by you in what you do?
Yes.
How do people find you?
Sinya Nicol: Yes.
So I've got a website
ngaralearning.com.au.
Rupert Isaacson: N-G-
Sinya Nicol: so Ngara is N-G-A-R-A.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: learning.com.au.
Rupert Isaacson: Learning.
Sinya Nicol: And
Rupert Isaacson: then- .com.au.
Yeah.
Sinya Nicol: That's it.
And then I've got an email
address, info@ngaralearning.com.au,
and yeah.
That'sâ¦
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about trainings.
I know that you do show
people how to do this work.
Sinya Nicol: Yes, so I do I have done
Movement Method trainings and Horseboy
Method trainings in the past, but I
haven't done them for a while because
I'm working more than full time already.
Indeed.
But, But if people did want to come to
you- It's definitely- ⦠to get trained.
Yes.
We then would, could definitely put a
group together and do either Movement
Method, which is the same as the Horseboy
Method, just instead of the horse and
the horse providing movement using other
forms of movement like swings and hammocks
and balancing and all of those things.
So-
Rupert Isaacson: The
Sinya Nicol: same neuroplasticity benefits
⦠something that can be implemented-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Sinya Nicol: yeah, in, in an everyday
life without having to have a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Neuroplasticity, brain-derived
neurotrophic factor,
all those good things.
I, I- That's right ⦠can, I'm
just talking now to you if you're
listening or watching in Australia,
go and get trained by Xenia.
I've watched her in action over years.
She's very, very, very good.
Whether in the academic setting,
'cause she was also teaching.
She sort of left that one out in
her CV that she was talking about.
And she brought Movement Method
into a particular school in
outside Frankfurt, and is as good
off the horse as on the horse.
I would strongly and highly
recommend going to her for training.
She knows what she's doing.
All
Sinya Nicol: right.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.
Well, thank you so much
for coming on the show.
I look forward- Thank you very
Sinya Nicol: much for having me
⦠Rupert Isaacson: to the next one.
I'm just gonna recap some
of the things that you said
You said, because I just think
these, these are words to
take away, idea not agenda.
Coming with an idea,
but not with an agenda.
I love it
You said
Trying to help people find a life
with less suffering and preparing
the environment to support this
You talked about the early schizophrenia
being a disease of character, that was so
interesting, and how that can be healed
without the condition being taken out
so that people with that condition can
operate
You really talked about a life
of finding solutions and comfort.
And I'm a great believer that you can't
do this work where you're asking people to
make great changes unless you're willing
to be involved in a constant process
of making great changes yourself, and
I think you're a real example of that.
You've had to work
outside your own language.
You've had to work
outside your own culture.
You've had to learn all these
different modalities and bring them
together, and you're still learning.
You know, your, your, your story
about going into the story forest
with your Wirramu client who-
Sinya Nicol: Client, yeah
seems
Rupert Isaacson: to become your teacher as
well, I think really fosters this because,
you know, sometimes I'm doing trainings
and, particularly young people going into
the field now, because it's a field now.
When you and I were getting
into it, it was something you
sort of almost paid to do.
And now- ⦠it's becoming a viable
career, especially in places like Ireland.
It's like if you're going to be asking
people to make these changes and you're
not constantly trying to make similar
types of very challenging tra- changes
yourself, then what tools have you got
to help someone else do this, you know?
So I think you really stand
as an example of that.
Any closing words before we-
Sinya Nicol: Oh, the pressure's on.
I don't-
Rupert Isaacson: Pressure's
Sinya Nicol: on ⦠I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: They can be silly.
They don't have to be serious.
Sinya Nicol: You know, my littlest
son taught me the power of yet.
He came from school, he said, "We, we
learned today about the power of yet."
I'm like, "Oh, tell me more.
What's that?"
He said, "I can't do that yet."
I'm like, "Oh, this is amazing."
And that's something that I haven't
mentioned yet that I, that I reallyâ¦
that I do implement into the work as well.
You know, like, we are here right now.
Where do we wanna go?
We're just not there yet,
but maybe we get there.
Maybe we change where we wanna
be, but I really like that.
Rupert Isaacson: I love that.
Sinya Nicol: That's it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So-
I'll see you on the next stage of the yet.
Maybe that makes us yetis.
Sinya Nicol: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: On that mountain.
It's the whole children's
book there somehow.
Yeah.
Brilliant words of wisdom.
Thank you, Zenia.
Sinya Nicol: Thank you very much.
Rupert Isaacson: Until the next time
Sinya Nicol: See you soon.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.
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