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We're talking about brand. We're even trying to define it. Understand what makes a good brand and how you can make your brand better. Views, thoughts, and commentary for clients and agencies. Brought to you by Good, a brand consultancy based in the UK.
I know I know we're off. I've I've hit the button. I've hit that button, and I've tried to do it with professional Jon Hamm.
Chris:Wishes. Listen. I didn't say that. It was AI that said
Stewart:that. There's
Chris:a hint.
Julie:God bless AI Listen. In its deluded state. Well, but Stewart has said some but Stewart does does say what AI is your ultimate people pleaser. So obviously knows you
Chris:Thank you.
Julie:And your need to be loved.
Chris:Yes. But AI is the subject of our topic today, isn't it? Because Stuart's raging, been raging all Christmas.
Julie:Ruined his Christmas.
Chris:He got a Christmas card that someone had given to him that is very dear to him, but it was designed by AI, and he's really disappointed. Heart. Aren't you sure?
Stewart:So tell us why tell us tell us what Well, some of some of that is true. You know, like, you know, without that. No. Well, I tell you what, let let's let's do the intro, and then we could get into the whole thing because let's completely say that. Okay.
Stewart:Welcome to the Good Brad podcast. Good is a brand consultancy based in The United Kingdom. We do brand, and we build brands, and we make brands, and we make businesses better through the power of brand. And today, I am joined as ever by miss Julie Hurtock.
Julie:Hello.
Stewart:Hello. Managing director of Good. And Chris Lumsden, the founder of Good .
Chris:Hello. Hi. To remind myself on Sunday
Julie:night what my job actually was. It was a long time off over Christmas.
Chris:Well, so
Stewart:did we. We had
Chris:to remind ourselves what your job was as well. But, anyway, tell us, Stewart, about who sent you a Christmas card that was created by you that started the whole beat.
Julie:Let's not name names.
Stewart:Let's not let's go down a little bit further into that, because I think we can talk about that a little bit further. At time of recording, it is the consumer electronic show in Las Vegas, the biggest event of the year, and thousands of products. And if you're on any tech space and you go into any of these tech websites, you'll look at a place called and you go on to the verge, for example, and all it is is new product announcements and exciting buzz for products that you are going to see, and a lot of products you'll never see, a lot of kind of in theory, you know, vaporware of what could happen. And what's kind of quite striking when you just, like, scroll down this page on the verges is the word AI powered, and everything is AI powered. And you've got AI powered battery chargers, AI powered, you know, computers, AI powered this and can't That's a
Chris:great thing, though, isn't it, Stewart? Isn't it a really good thing now? AI is everywhere. Makes everything better, doesn't
Stewart:It's kind one you get into in theory no. No. In theory, yes. AI is a we could we talked about AI as a very disruptive technology that has a lot of use and benefit. The challenge is product marketing, just describing things lazily as AI powered.
Stewart:And you cannot look at it and you go, well, if everything's AI powered, what does it matter? And as a yeah. And as a consumer
Julie:Even the customers to join the dots of what the value is.
Stewart:Exactly. And I'm kinda going so there's been a lot of talk, especially the end of last year or whatever podcast I listened to saying, you know, the AI bubble and the the consumer with the AI bubble and then NVIDIA coming up, then it's a it's a it's it's a bubble that's frothy but understood and everything else like that. I think the bubble's got to be starting with the fact that we've got to stop talking about AI. We've got to shift from what is a technical achievement within a product team, and it is impressive, and the technology does have benefits to actually sit down and take the time to explain what those benefits are.
Chris:But this is what I mean, but what you're describing is something as as we've talked about, you know, this is a film we have seen before, isn't it? And and and so are you frustrated because no one ever seems to and how it how it cuts across and into brand cock and comms, and people don't seem to know how to integrate these new things into a sort of value proposition.
Stewart:The the way of and it was Julie that mentioned it. The the the last time we kinda dealt with us in a big scale where you're looking around and having the same problem is is around the word smart, which is about 2015, 2016, where everything was smart and or connected.
Chris:It's not often you hear the word Julien smart in the same sentence, is it? Sorry. Had to
Julie:It just spent a lot of years having the conversation about whether it what did it mean? What does smart mean? What does it and it because we talked to I remember it was a client we were working with at that point in the home tech well, in the connected home space, and it was the only, you know, at a time where smart the use of the word smart, the use of connected, the the kind of, the tech badge, you know, geofencing was the latest thing, you know, at that at that time, and it's or, know, it was and the language was very technology based. It was all because it was all very clever. They were all all excited about their technology.
Chris:I used to think we had lot
Julie:of time talking about.
Chris:Cloud based as well is something I was like, what does that
Stewart:mean? Yeah.
Julie:But you can't but I think the thing with cloud based is at least you kind of under you know, as a as a say, it's pretty descriptive. Do you know what mean? It's more descriptive than smart. I mean, it's smart. It's what what
Chris:It's a good term for rain.
Julie:Oh, yeah. Indeed. But, yeah, I think it it does there's definite when you were talking, Stuart, about this topic of AI and the kind of badging of AI powered across everything, like you say, it reeks of lazy marketing. And also not just think, I mean, we talked about this on other podcasts, we had when we had Ryan on, Ryan Schultz, ex client from Stratus, a three d printing company, he talked a lot about how much technology companies like to talk about the tech. And they because they're so proud of it, and they're it's it's new, and it's exciting, and it's might be groundbreaking in some instances.
Julie:So it's kind of I I don't whether it's intentional or whether it's lazy or whether it's just
Stewart:It's a crutch. A lack
Julie:of understanding of how to actually articulate or just that actually you lose sight of the, the need to to to approach it from a customer point of view rather than an internal, we're really proud of this tech point of
Stewart:view.
Julie:So let's talk your point is that's that's not a new problem either. You know, we see that everywhere with all sorts of new technology innovation.
Chris:Let's talk about what the challenges what people we think should people do about it, but I do think there's a difference with AI this time rather than some of those other cloud based smart, and that it's it's pervading into everyone's everyday existence. You know, it's it's it's gonna be a bit a much bigger disruptor, I think, this one, than than some of the others, and that will create other and we're talk we we we can come on to the stuff about backlashes and stuff like that and what that might mean. But what are the what what do you think, though, Stuart, then these businesses that slap AI powered on our product and think they've done their job? What should they be doing? Can you talk can you break that down?
Stewart:Yeah. I mean, I think I think it's it it if it's the same with smart, mean, the the problem and the solution are the same. And what what makes it more annoying with AI is actually there's real benefits. You can tangibly suggest a bit of a problem. They're less nebulous.
Stewart:The benefits and the value that are driven are less nebulous than smart. Yeah. And actually that makes it worse because you cannot go into it. We were just running through some examples here. We go, well, actually, here's where the value is.
Stewart:And AI comes second to the I mean, it is AI powered, but it it's second to the value it creates. And so I hope there's a lot of product marketers at the moment on the verge going, did we get any coverage? And then having a little lump in their throat or a or their stomach falling away going, we've just we've totally messed up. This is fucked, man, because we just now sound like everybody else. And I hope that happens, and that's why I think that bubble's going burst because it's just on a wall of of stuff.
Stewart:So I think what's gonna happen and what you should be doing is is back to basics. I mean, none of this is particularly complicated. It's going back and going you know, the first step would even be better is just listing features and benefits, which would be somewhat better because at least you can get a handle on what this AI powered nonsense is. And, actually, that's not fair because it's not nonsense. It it it can be quite fundamental.
Stewart:It it's just the phases nonsense. And then the next kind of thing after that is lingo, but what you know, how does that make money, save money, protect reputations? What know, what's the actual value in that? So the the and the problem and the solution is the same as it ever was. It's trying to it's trying to get past the shorthand, which now becomes
Julie:meaningless. Yes. But I think that that we've just been through, and sure, you've just run an exercise with a client here in the traffic control space and a a lot of proprietary technology, and a lot of what they're doing in terms of the software is is AI AI powered, and the the the positioning the product positioning exercise that we've just been through with them around to allow us to kind of unpack the value of ultimately what that deliver, you know, and and they've been, I think, quite sensitive and aware of the fact that just seeing AI isn't going to do the job for them. Ultimately, you know, and this is oversimplification, but ultimately when you look at it, it boils down to making things the ability to make things safer and make things more efficient or and how, you know, those messages are are relevant to different audiences depending on who you're talking to. But you can define the value based around based around that.
Julie:Now there's lots of smart stuff and really clever things and detail around features that you can obviously delve into,
Stewart:and we we will build out for for, you know,
Julie:a variety of pieces of comms. But ultimately, the benefit of that of that technology, the benefit of AI is the ability to make you know, to to to save lives and save money, you know, and it's kinda so yeah. That it's it's it's take stripping stripping the AI badge away and and and and articulating it enough.
Chris:So it's so what we're saying is from a brand that comes point point of view, it's it's it's another the next it's the next cab off the rank in terms of, you know, new innovation, but but it's the same it's the same challenge we have, and it's the same solution. But what what about this sort of trust gap that seems to be growing out there in the public consciousness and, you know, this sense of will will users or people begin to trust brands more or less when they hear AI powered? And because there is a negative narrative out there, quite a strong one, and the worries about what what that might what that might mean. And, you know, are we gonna get a sort of cultural backlash that says that people are gonna want things that say human made or human checked or human verified over over this kind of vision of of of of artificial intelligence? I mean, what does that yeah.
Chris:What's your view
Stewart:on that? I I think I think things are I mean, you know, consumer CES this week, you'd expect things to be technology. I mean, it's the same thing. I mean, this isn't a new problem. This went back to the seventies when microprocessors were in everything.
Stewart:You know, this is you know, this you had microwaves with microprocessors in them, and it was like going, well, what does that mean? It just means it meant nothing, meaning you had a timer that was digital rather than a it would be really fun. You know what I mean? So was more precise. So, again, the the the challenge of of badging things with the technology to make it sound best in class as as ever been us.
Stewart:I think we're we're just in the CS world. As you'd expect a lot of things to be AI powered, that that part of the that's the game you're in. I think when it gets into other things, for example, AI curated wedding lists, that's when you get into a bath. I go, really? Because, again, you take
Chris:a weed.
Stewart:You don't have
Chris:to think about it. Well,
Stewart:I bet I mean, I think that's the kind of that I mean, dude, a lot of the kind of AI stuff that was happening before Christmas was about AI, you know, AI powered gift cards where you could sit down and go, like, I've got a 13 year old, or I've gotten this job. You can get some inspiration from
Chris:where the is this where the Christmas card came, Stuart? Is this where the No.
Stewart:No. That's not what
Chris:is, isn't it?
Stewart:No. It's not with Christmas card.
Chris:Somebody used AI for a Christmas card.
Stewart:Yeah. We'll we'll go into that. We'll go into that. And I think that's the kind of thing where I I I think things which you expect a person to do. Yeah.
Stewart:And then but, again, you can be AI powered, I mean, I had to my son has got a new job. I was a bit lost. He's 25. I don't want to get my gift voucher, and I went, well, who will I talk to? And everybody I thought to shrugged and the one thing, you know, yeah, as a people pleaser, it didn't shrug and gave me a couple of ideas.
Stewart:But ultimately, it wasn't just curated. There was a human involved in that process event. Won't let that, you know, off of mean, it I said Yeah.
Chris:Human checked. Human verified.
Stewart:It was like it was like a you know, he said, you would like slippers. Went, no. He fucking wouldn't like slippers. You know, the the and again, that is your challenge with taste. AI has no taste.
Stewart:It comes up with a you
Julie:But then if you're putting the human filter on it over that then, it's like and it's the same we talk about from a work scenario. It kind of removes the blank piece of paper. Do you know I mean? It gives you but it doesn't it's not it's not then a fait accompli, so or it's not, you know, it still needs that.
Chris:So but but so are are you saying that not all sectors are are kind of created equal when it comes to AI? Some some can some can surf the the ways more than others.
Stewart:No. Not I mean, yesterday, you know, AI chat LGBT Health, and they made a big play of the fact that they've consulted doctors on now that is that's them kinda going, no. Listen. This has got a lot of human hands on it. This is where it's kind of saying that it's got some it it's not AI powered.
Stewart:You know? That is AI.
Chris:I mean, other politicians are saying that AI is gonna play a big role in helping, you know, remove waiting lists and all that kind of stuff. So there is a there is obviously a a benefit gonna come from that.
Stewart:And but but ultimately but again, to the point of actually hoping to see a human quicker. Yeah. Probably. Which is which is the interesting thing about so, I mean, if you can get to see a human quicker, then does it matter how you're getting there as long as you're not as long as you're not being prescribed by the AI. Somebody asked AI, how do I remove salt from my diet and suggested a a method from the eighteen hundreds, which basically put them in hospital.
Stewart:You know?
Julie:Twap.
Stewart:That is a problem. Put or putting glue on pizzas is one of the other you know? So there's lots of kinda so it needs so, a, we don't necessarily trust it, and b, it's going to be humans have flipped over this. I don't
Chris:But I suppose the judgment still needs to be made to that, you know, for for it doesn't necessarily work in all brands. You need you don't have to have it. Right? And that's Well,
Julie:that's why was thinking that
Chris:you is is important. Think taste, I suppose. Yeah.
Julie:Well, yeah, I think if you go and to your point about are all sectors created equal in terms of the use of AI, I mean, I think how Mulberry are using AI to influence the design process of their new range of bags. Who knows? If it's behind the scenes, does anyone care? They're But not going to be shouting about that presumably as a I mean, I'm making this up obviously, but there's an expectation you would I would assume there's an expectation within the world of consumer electronics or technology that AI is going to drive efficiency or create improvements, but there's that kind of handcrafted stuff, and we expect that.
Stewart:Yeah. Creative And industries where it's kind of really pushing us in video games and in filmmaking. Yeah. In video games, which I just don't quite get my head right, and, well, I do get it. But what I tell you, anything that's kind of this has been generated by A Star stuff is is absolutely blackballed in the industry.
Stewart:Even the game that I'm madly in love with just now, Arc Raiders is using AI voices to turn into that, and there's a lot of backlash on using AI voice. Now is that because the the quality no. In a in gaming, the voice acting can be either very good or very bad. You're never really there. And in this particular game, you're not really using it as a core part of the experience, so does it matter?
Stewart:But then what it becomes is protecting people's jobs. That's what it comes down to. That's that's where the nervousness is.
Julie:And I think it I I think it's interesting because I would say the other one I think that, you know, you hear or have heard conversation around isn't around know, you say in the creative space is music. So Mhmm. You know, people use songwriters, musicians have used GarageBand or similar technology to create, you know, quick backing tracks with multiple instruments for for a long time. That's not new that's not new tech. But then when you get into the realms of using AI to draft a, you know, draft song lyrics for you or come up with it.
Julie:Does is that too and it's more it's where the the lines are created about yeah. They'll and well, yeah. Literally create a song, you know, and it's like because it's not it's not an issue of quality. If you could you know, again, layman, Joe blogs in the street. It's a you you don't yeah.
Julie:You know, is a question. So then that comes back to the point, I think, around, you know, person you know, is it is it a moral question? Is it just because it's new and there's actually over time some of that will shift in what is currently not deemed as acceptable because you're losing a craft will be, and the craft comes at you. Like, just there's such a it kind of feels like we're in that sort of muddy middle at the moment talked where
Chris:about that yesterday. We were talking about some trend stuff in the in the agency, and Stuart was, you know, this this growing trend of more analog experiences, things coming back. We talked about even stuff like magazines and books and audio and vinyl
Julie:I can't believe the youngsters were taking film Cameras.
Chris:Cameras on holiday. I mean, someone had been away in on a trip, and they'd taken a 35 mil camera by filming.
Julie:I mean, she's very pretty, though. She doesn't take a bad picture,
Chris:does she? I need my phone for 18 attempts. But these are these are some of the young folk, and that's happening, and they're they're actively embracing that stuff that we don't
Julie:care because it's meant to
Chris:be killed. But there is something in there. Right? There is something about the the unconnectedness of it all and the and the authenticity of it.
Stewart:Yeah. The and the pendulum swings. It's gonna swing the other way, and then we'll we'll reach some kind of medals. So to this point about don't I even think we're in the messy middle. We're in the frothy start, you know, because
Julie:Yeah. Yeah.
Stewart:You you can do all this. You know? I mean, you can do all sorts of stuff, and it's and where I think also the authenticity is that we can't just trust the rights. You know? We just don't know if we're looking at something real or not because I mean, I was looking at a picture the other day, and I just couldn't decide when that looks a little made up.
Stewart:And it might
Chris:have been Christmas card?
Stewart:No. I was very clear about what that was. But but but and but so what happened was right?
Julie:Tell us, Stuart. Tell us what happened about
Stewart:the Christmas. I better tell it before Christmas. It's basically we have a thing at Christmas where as much as we do our Yankee swap and our and everything else like that, we'd we'd pick a name at heart, and we'd do a picture of somebody else, of and the agency would told by the agency. And what was interesting about it was that I got my picture was done by Eiry, and it was basically you could tell a couple prompt, and it was weird because it met the brief. You know?
Stewart:I mean, it it was fine, but when I and, again, it was fine. And but to do I'm not crying anymore. It it was interesting, my reaction to it, which was funny, and it was good that it was there. You know? It was and the person who was doing it has been very busy, and I understand that it's You
Julie:just put it in the bin, though, didn't you? You did wasn't a keeper.
Stewart:Of course. I know exactly what it is. I know exactly what it is. Next door. Made it.
Stewart:But it so and and, you know, there was some thought in the prompt. If that's if that
Chris:may No.
Stewart:It's interesting that that is
Julie:where value lives. The value is.
Stewart:The the thought is the problem. You know? So this person And
Chris:we all got hand drawn ones.
Stewart:And got hand drawn ones. And so what was kinda interesting is, in in theory, this meets the brief, but it doesn't help me in an emotional way that actually somebody's done that you could see other people see So does that mean that we're horrified?
Chris:Does that mean that consumers are are becoming more and more adept at spotting shortcuts and AI fakes?
Stewart:Well, you I don't know. I I I don't know if we can trust anything. That I mean, the the well, the difference is on a group of 16 people, mine stood out because it wasn't of that nature of of the kind of handmade stuff. And so suddenly, I I mean, again, it's fine. I've not lost any sleep over it.
Chris:It has a really
Stewart:And I I understand what's happened. But the kind of thing was interesting, my reaction to it, which initially was looking and especially because this person's exceptionally talented, they're also exceptionally busy, and there was obviously some thought in it that I was kind of going, oh, okay. This is weird.
Chris:This is So that's a metaphor
Julie:for it. Yeah. But I think there because there's a there's an expectation there that there's a personal aspect to that gift, And when it's kind of outsourced to something that's generated by a computer, it doesn't it doesn't feel the same. It's a bit like buying off a it is a bit buying off mean, I love buying off a gift list because it takes removes the thought process. But it is a bit like buying off a gift list versus thinking what would that person like to go and sourcing something.
Julie:Do you know I mean?
Chris:I do think the funnies are not as funny now. You know, the gifts and stuff that you get, which are clearly AI things beautifully, perfectly shots, things of Donald Trump wearing a different you know, whatever it you know,
Stewart:and it's like, that's that's just not funny.
Chris:Whereas, the more hand bashed
Julie:Some of it is funny.
Chris:Some of this yeah. But it's not as funny as I'd I think as the old stuff used to be, and maybe that's just me, but but I do think you're you're hurting something, Stuart, that I you know, the risk of repeating myself. I think consumers have a an ability to detect.
Stewart:Well, the bullshit
Julie:I think everything is what's
Chris:authentic and what's not.
Julie:What's not? But I think the I think there's also still a question of where where does it matter? Because I know that, know, when you think about, like, you know, AI generated images in a in a sales brochure that's just shown a generic interior of a nice house. Does it matter if that's AI generated? Probably not.
Julie:But what it matters if there's a AI voice generating a fake customer testimonial. Do you know what I mean? So it's I just I think there's a lot of bits where it's like, well, you know, it's and and because it's
Chris:So yeah. And it's it's up
Stewart:to businesses like us to
Chris:try and figure out that line, isn't it? About
Julie:what And it might be different for for every business and every brand depending on their own, you know Yeah.
Chris:And one of the
Julie:things vision, mission values, all that stuff.
Chris:Yeah. It's true. You were saying it's about showing some messiness and some some authenticity in your workings and stuff like that to help drive home that sense of authenticity.
Stewart:Yeah. Because I think I think the challenge is everything we're high alert all the time. We're looking for, we're judging everything of being authentic all the time from text messages that come in.
Julie:I get
Stewart:two a day from my kids telling me they've got new phones. Two a day.
Julie:They are so careless.
Stewart:They're they are crazy. And I get to go, who's paid for that? I better put myself, you know. So you I get to the so I'm all every text that comes on is is you're you're going to DEFCON two. You kinda go, right.
Stewart:What's happening here? The same now is with the images that you look around because they are so perfect and, you know, and stuff and I love the aesthetic of AI images with a with an elbow coming out of banana and stuff like that. I almost
Julie:thought that eight fingers.
Stewart:I loved on that. I was there for that all day. I could watch a banana a a tomato being cut for it tastes like how you I don't understand what's going on, but I love it. It's beautiful. But now well If it's all that's good, we're hypnotic.
Chris:It's just watching someone cut no tomato.
Stewart:So so the interesting thing is how do you what what what is authentic, and it's actually kind of admitting your mistakes. It's actually going, we tried this. It doesn't work because that's our story, the story of any progress. It's there where AI takes all that out. AI tells you that you're great all the time and shows you how shows you in your I mean, in your best light.
Stewart:It makes you look good. It makes your skin look good, which I could do.
Chris:Like John Hamm.
Stewart:Makes you look like John Ham. John with an h.
Julie:I know. It's not. That he maybe is that John Ham. Looks like a bit maybe maybe it was just getting infused with bit of ham. Give me a little bit.
Stewart:Of ham. Gum on. Probably. Gum on. So so I think so I think for for businesses, it's kind of going, look.
Stewart:Open this up. Be a little bit more honest because ultimately, your end result is made up of your mistakes. It's not and that's what AI doesn't want to you know, even when AI makes a mistake when I'm working I work with that a lot. I really like working with that. But if you see it, you can go, that's not right.
Stewart:It will go, that's absolutely correct. I'm absolutely
Chris:I know. That's a good catch.
Julie:Well
Stewart:done. No. Not a good catch fucking base in your tube, but you're an AI and not a person. And yeah. So I think it's about it's about showing we made a mistake for the betterment of the product.
Chris:That's how you do
Julie:how you're using AI as a label or don't use AI as a label, use it as a or don't don't lose sight of the need to define the value Yeah. That it's delivering rather than just using it as
Chris:a interesting to see how the tension builds and the backlash builds and all that and what that means. It's gonna be interesting to see, but, yeah, it's it's important for us in the work that we do. Right? That's kinda how we go how we frame it for our clients. So it's been interesting.
Chris:I do think I do think it's an interesting debate and one that we will And we'll back
Julie:to rumble on, I'm sure.
Stewart:I mean, I've taken a few screen grabs from my weirdo off of the homepage of the of the verge to compare it year on year. I think that's quite an interesting thing, you know, just to get it aware. What's next year should be trends? Yeah. Because I do think it's I mean, some of the some of the robotic stuff is mental, so it's gonna be that'll be interesting to see where the
Chris:It's robots now, isn't it? It's gonna be robots.
Stewart:We're not robot daft. They're coming for us. I'd I'd I'd like a robot in the house.
Julie:I've got my robe I've got my robe a robot vacuum cleaner from
Stewart:a Okay.
Julie:From a wedding present. It's just
Chris:so of those companies in Boston. Yeah.
Julie:I don't know. IRobot was there. I thought is iRobot iRobot Yeah. They're not fast. Are they?
Julie:Oh, well Yeah. Tell you, they made good they create good robots because it's still going fifteen years later.
Stewart:Well, are. So if I got
Julie:Right. Getting any spare parts, so it breaks now, though, obviously.
Stewart:Well, happy up. I've got I've bit two months research on it. I got a cracker. Everybody's happy.
Chris:Christmas cracker. Right?
Stewart:I know.
Julie:Does it wash the floors as well?
Stewart:Yes. Yes. It does.
Julie:Oh, I see mine doesn't make sense.
Stewart:Does it? It's frustrating. Yeah. Frustrating.
Chris:Listen. Let's bring this to a close. Nice to see y'all.
Stewart:Alright. Thank you.
Chris:Bye bye. Bye.