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Welcome to The HR Misfits — the podcast for people who care about work, leadership, and humans… but are tired of the corporate script. This is where HR, leadership, and workplace culture get real. Every episode dives into the messy, meaningful, and often unspoken side of work — from people leaders and founders to operators, creatives, and career rebels who don’t fit neatly in a box.
We talk about the moments that shape leaders, the systems that need rethinking, and the stories behind policies, power, burnout, belonging, and growth. No buzzwords. No performative culture talk. Just honest conversations about what it actually takes to build workplaces that work for people.
If you’ve ever felt like you didn’t belong in the “professional” version of work — welcome to the misfits. You’re one of us.
New episodes weekly!
It’s not about the destination; it’s about the story. Through honest conversations, we’ll uncover the moments that define careers, the challenges overcome, and the lessons learned along the way. These are real stories from real people, celebrating the diversity of work and the individuality of the people behind it.
Join us as we break down stereotypes, embrace the unexpected, and shine a light on the human side of work.
[00:00:00] LaToya Davis: HR is not just demonstrating the behaviors of the policies, the processes, and the practices that we promote for the culture that we are accountable to set, then that sets the tone for the rest of the organization. Now, leadership has the same accountability, right? Like it's not HR'sjob to, to make people do it, but you do need to model the behavior.
[00:00:19] Ami Graves: Welcome to The HR Misfits, the podcast about leadership decisions. Most organizations get wrong. Told from the HR seat that actually sees the fallout. We're business-minded, human-centered, and just bold enough to challenge the people systems that no longer work where polished playbooks end and real leadership begins.
[00:00:38] Ami Graves: We are the HR leaders who've been in the room when things get messy political or uncomfortable leading with heart grit, and a little bit of sass. If you believe HR should be a catalyst. Not corporate theater and leadership should actually work for humans. You're in the right place. Let's get into it.
[00:00:55] Ami Graves: What's up, misfits? We're back for another episode. Me, Marci. LaToya. We're gonna dig in today. This is all about HR Gone Wild. Marci's gonna. Kick us off tonight. It's a Thursday night. I'm chilling in my Amsterdam sweatshirt. LaToya just got off work. Marci apparently is trying to make us look bad, and she worked out.
[00:01:14] Ami Graves: I don't know what's going on with her, but that's okay. I mean,
[00:01:17] LaToya Davis: this is her casual athleisure wear this isle wear,
[00:01:20] Ami Graves: you know what I mean? It's like, but it's like, you know, nowadays, like once you get to a certain age, it's like, is she going to the food store or is she working out? We don't know exactly. Right.
[00:01:27] Ami Graves: You'll never know. You'll never know.
[00:01:29] LaToya Davis: Versatility.
[00:01:30] Ami Graves: That's versatility, right? So yeah, HR gone wild. I, I'm sure all of our HR friends listening to this show have heard about, you know what, tongue in cheek like we're HR misfits, but we're gonna talk about some serious HR misfits, the kind that are not loud in this club, guys.
[00:01:46] Ami Graves: Okay? There's a lot happening in the media. We'll get to the Coldplay stuff. I can't help but wanna talk about not HR, but. The Michigan coach. There's so many things happening there. There's a lot. They're just,
[00:01:59] LaToya Davis: yeah.
[00:01:59] Ami Graves: People related that are just. Cringey.
[00:02:02] LaToya Davis: We wanted to get famous, but not like this.
[00:02:04] Ami Graves: Not like this.
[00:02:05] Ami Graves: No.
[00:02:05] Marci Coppola: I used to, so it's so funny you say that. 'cause I literally have joked and said the same thing. I'm like, you know, we used to joke and say that we're the forgotten about the time in HR. I was like, but guys, you did it wrong. Yeah, we put ourselves on the map in all the wrong ways. All the wrong, you know, last year.
[00:02:18] Marci Coppola: It's like, come on. So yeah. So I, I, I agree. I feel like there's a lot we can dive into and I know we wanted to talk about. The SHRM case.
[00:02:26] Ami Graves: Yeah, let's do it. Marci. Tell, you know, give us the over, give us the overview, man. I'm sure everybody on the planet has heard of this, especially in HR, but for those who haven't or just need a, an overview, take us down the, take us down the path.
[00:02:37] Ami Graves: What happened?
[00:02:38] Marci Coppola: Yep. So for those who don't know, so SHRM, mighty Powerhouse, right? SHRM is the Society of Human Resources and the largest HR authority in the world. So I just wanna, just wanna preface that we're talking about the largest authority.
[00:02:54] Ami Graves: Little detail.
[00:02:55] Marci Coppola: Just a small detail. Mother mothership of
[00:02:58] LaToya Davis: HR.
[00:02:59] Marci Coppola: Yes.
[00:02:59] Ami Graves: The mothership of HR.
[00:03:00] Marci Coppola: Mothership of HR. I love that. Was found violating basic and I, I love the saying basic 'cause it's true. Basic employment law principles that it teaches others. I think that is. Where the irony sets in for me is that this is somebody that's, you know, we're, we're seeing them right as the authority and they were found it was 11 and a half million lawsuit.
[00:03:25] Marci Coppola: So basically they were brought up on the discrimination around the plaintiff's name. Uh, last name Mohammed. Uh, first name is Rehab. She was an instructional designer. And she basically was, you know, stating that during her time of employment she had a supervisor treat her less favorably than her colleagues and
[00:03:48] Ami Graves: she Than her, than her white counterparts.
[00:03:50] Marci Coppola: Correct. And she was being excluded from meetings. She was being subjected to stricter scrutiny and she brought, as any employee should, brought this concern up. And then she faced retaliation. So. It's an interesting situation because when I read through the details I was like, okay, so we're no stranger to escalations.
[00:04:12] Marci Coppola: We're no strangers in HR to policies. Then, you know, obviously coming under scrutiny or situations where people violate policies, but in this case, I'm reading through it and I don't know if the two I, I was, I felt like I was face palming the whole time. I was like, well. How do you have an internal investigation being done when the complaints' being raised and the termination paperwork is being prepped in the same process of like, what?
[00:04:38] Marci Coppola: Like what are we doing? You know? And then I'm reading that the investigator was like, they only did like maybe one investigation prior to this one
[00:04:47] Ami Graves: In one training. In one training, one, one single training.
[00:04:50] Marci Coppola: And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, we're not talking about, this is not a small, this isn't a small trade group.
[00:04:56] Marci Coppola: This is a powerhouse nonprofit. Hundreds of millions in yearly revenue. Yeah. And over 300 million in assets. So I just wanna set that because we're talking just in assets and then roughly serving 340,000 HR professionals globally. So if anything, you're talking about an organization that should probably be setting the standard.
[00:05:24] Marci Coppola: As it relates to policies, procedures, compliance, investigations. We're over here in HR trying to learn from y'all, right? Yeah. And
[00:05:32] LaToya Davis: Marci, I just wanna have this down.
[00:05:34] Ami Graves: Yes, exactly. And, and yeah, exactly. LaToya, we thought y'all had this down. And not only did we think you had it down, and the reason we thought that is because I'm sure we're all signed up for the the SHRM emails that come our way.
[00:05:45] Ami Graves: I don't know about you guys. Every single year I get tons of emails around how to handle discrimination cases. Join this webinar for how to make sure you're not retaliating. I think I read a stat, um, that 50% of the, the. Cases filed with the EEOC are around retaliation. I'm sure I heard that stat from SHRM.
[00:06:05] LaToya Davis: Yeah.
[00:06:06] Ami Graves: You know, so it's like SHRM, if you know 50% of the EEOC cases are retaliation, do you know this is an
[00:06:12] LaToya Davis: issue.
[00:06:13] Ami Graves: Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:14] Marci Coppola: Exactly. And I think without having to, to go down. The rabbit hole of every detail in the case, because I know this is something where, you know, everybody's gonna have an opinion, you know?
[00:06:24] Marci Coppola: And I know SHRM is coming forward and trying to defend, but I think it creates a bigger conversation around policy. And I know the two of you probably have tons of examples around this, where I have often said to my leaders, it's like, you know, policy. Doesn't create the safety. It's a piece of paper that you have words on.
[00:06:41] Marci Coppola: Behavior does absolutely and values don't build trust if you're just saying them out loud as words without consistent action. You have to have consistent action behind the things that you're saying. You have to actually put into practice around the policies that you're stating. Otherwise, policy only protects you if your behavior matches it otherwise.
[00:07:03] Marci Coppola: Guess what happens, ladies and gentlemen? It literally could indict you. It literally could be words used against you in court, and I think that's exactly what they're facing right now, and it's caused a big discussion around this, which,
[00:07:16] Ami Graves: yeah.
[00:07:17] Marci Coppola: Can't say rightfully so. Right, right, right. Yeah.
[00:07:19] LaToya Davis: As as it should,
[00:07:20] Marci Coppola: as it should, as it
[00:07:21] LaToya Davis: should.
[00:07:21] LaToya Davis: I mean, you cannot, you can't proclaim to be the kind of the authority on HR practices and policies and how to do things. Right. And then don't practice what you preach, to your point. Like you don't, you don't, and, and to take it a step further, sham isn't just. Giving us light suggestions. They're not just consultants.
[00:07:41] LaToya Davis: I mean they actually certify HR professionalism require, you know, some of these webinars are not optional. You need to stay re-certified to get this, you know, kind of accredited credential. Like you have to take these things. So you're teaching these things and yet you're internal practices were inconsistent with the things that you are requiring people.
[00:08:01] LaToya Davis: There is, I mean, look it many moons ago. Lots of perimenopause brain cells. Ago I took the SHRM certification and it was an entire section around employment law. I'm pretty confident there is a section on investigations and escalation and things like that, and so again, it's not like they can rest on. We didn't really know what we should do here.
[00:08:24] LaToya Davis: Like, and again, in parallel, like doesn't explicitly say that, but running a planning for a termination while investigating.
[00:08:33] Ami Graves: That's cool. That's wild.
[00:08:34] LaToya Davis: Behavior in parallel is a huge red flag.
[00:08:37] Ami Graves: Yeah, and I, I can't believe that that's the part, right, that you're right. That is the part that's like to talk about face palm.
[00:08:44] Ami Graves: Like, oh, and you know what not. Like, come on. Not just for them, but like for all of us HR practitioners. For all of us.
[00:08:50] Marci Coppola: Yeah.
[00:08:50] Ami Graves: Because we're, we're all tied to H RM in some, in some way. Right? Or or at least even if we're not maybe certified, you know?
[00:08:59] Marci Coppola: Yeah. Not anymore.
[00:09:00] Ami Graves: Yeah. I mean, right, right. Okay. Okay. Well, can I play devil's advocate for a second though?
[00:09:06] Ami Graves: We're
[00:09:06] LaToya Davis: asking, we're we're asking for an annulment.
[00:09:08] Ami Graves: Yeah. Right, right. Can money back please? Can I get all those dollars back? I spent, um, okay, so devil's advocate, like, do we think that we would've felt a little differently about this whole situation if somebody from SHRM would've stepped forward and said, oh my gosh.
[00:09:30] Ami Graves: My bad Mia Culpa. We had an employee that we didn't train, right? We did the wrong thing. We own it. And instead of saying, please don't put into the record here in court that we're the expert on that, like we don't want anybody to know that in this case. So it's like, I just feel like how they handled it really hurt them even more than the allegations, or at least as much as the allegations, right.
[00:09:56] Marci Coppola: Yeah. And I think with that, what stood out for me too is, is one exactly. That is just, you would think that, like I said, a powerhouse organization would have everything buttoned up around the investigation process and think, you know, perhaps we shouldn't allow somebody who doesn't have much experience to do that, to do that junior version.
[00:10:13] Marci Coppola: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But the, but the fact that there were, they were also trying to stop, you know, rehab Mohammed from presenting evidence about. The status as being sort of like the leader in best HR practices and the, and I was laughing 'cause I was like, so are we bringing a handbook to the court? Because the court is not here to look at your handbook.
[00:10:34] Marci Coppola: They're, they're here to, to listen to the behaviors and the actions. And that is ultimately what got them in trouble is because we're talking about. The standard for workplace practices and you violated those things and it doesn't matter. Again, like you can put this beautiful handbook together and I, I know I have examples of this.
[00:10:54] Marci Coppola: I have very cringe-worthy stories that will have to probably take with me when I pass on, but Oh no,
[00:11:00] Ami Graves: we're getting into those in this show.
[00:11:02] Marci Coppola: Yeah,
[00:11:02] Ami Graves: they're coming out. Marci,
[00:11:04] Marci Coppola: there's so many where I've seen that and I actually was. A leader, an HR leader at one point where if with part of an organization where they were doing that, they basically had this mentality of, well, this is a problem employee, and this employee has caused some issues.
[00:11:21] Marci Coppola: And, and when I started to pull the thread of like all these behind the scenes conversations, I said, hold on a second, this looks like retaliation. You. You literally, I said, if I were the employee, that would feel like retaliation to me. And I said, so what was your thought process around the actions that you're taking?
[00:11:41] Marci Coppola: Like what ultimately were you thinking? Because the knee jerk reaction to We have a problem, we have an issue, we need to solve it. And it's like we just have to get rid of it and make it go away. And ultimately, if you're sitting in the court and you're listening to this case, that is what I thought I was like, they probably felt this is an issue that we need to make.
[00:11:58] Marci Coppola: Go away.
[00:11:59] Ami Graves: Yep. Well, don't make it go away during the investigation because clearly there's no proper investigation happening.
[00:12:07] LaToya Davis: That's also, I think it's the call and response thing, and this has happened. To your point, Marci, like this is where I always caution leaders, especially like, for example, one of my telltale signs, and I would say, and I'm, I have a few of these red flags,
[00:12:22] Marci Coppola: is.
[00:12:24] LaToya Davis: You know, as my secondary favorite topic, we were in performance management. So since we're gonna keep doing that and so we don't, we get into performance. I haven't heard anything about Jane Doe all year, but somehow this person's a does not meet or question, they just really haven't shown up. Interesting.
[00:12:38] LaToya Davis: You should say that you haven't brought this up before. How do we get here? Well, it's just been a lot of issues. Here's the thing about stuff like this, organizations, whether this was the behind the scenes or that it, they're saying, oh, it's a problem now and now I wanna move to this, this action. Here's the thing.
[00:12:56] LaToya Davis: At the first sign, you see something, you need to start taking action. And so when leaders come to me, no, the time to take action is not now the act. Well it is, but the action you need to do is, let's start with. How do we try to address the performance issue? Not well, like this is just a big problem and I just need to get rid of it.
[00:13:14] LaToya Davis: That's a unique problem that actually says more about your leadership than it does about the situation at hand. Because if you have not been given this person feedback, you certainly haven't asked for any coaching on the feedback, but now you think magically they should have known that you're gonna use this performance to tell them the feedback and then say, yeah, in like 30 days, I'd like them to be gone.
[00:13:32] LaToya Davis: That's a hard no. And it should be for the rest of us as HR leaders. So like that's not the direction to go in. And then yes, you, these are the types of cases that turn well, these are types of actions that turn into cases like this because. It feels like it's a response AK retaliation to something else.
[00:13:50] LaToya Davis: And maybe that wasn't your thought process. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but the way that the actions played out, it's a real easy correlation and they say is in a case, retaliation is a go-to thing. It the reason there's a 50% or so of those cases because it's, it happens so often that. Companies don't take the time to document properly and they move in lockstep and say, now you're a problem.
[00:14:13] LaToya Davis: I'm gonna get rid of you. You think like I had leaders who talk to me all the time, it's at will employment. That's not what it
[00:14:19] Ami Graves: means. Oh my gosh.
[00:14:20] LaToya Davis: That's
[00:14:20] Ami Graves: not
[00:14:20] Marci Coppola: what
[00:14:21] means,
[00:14:22] Ami Graves: honey
[00:14:22] LaToya Davis: tell story. Tell
[00:14:22] Ami Graves: no what? That's that is hilarious because that is so true. People say that all the time. I don't know, I'm, I'll be in some Facebook.
[00:14:33] Ami Graves: I'll be down that rabbit hole and then I'll have all the, I'll hear all these, see all these random people saying, oh, it's at will employment. Like, ugh. I talk about a face plan. I'm like, no, that's not, Ugh, whatever I, but I wanna say LaToya, I dunno what I wanted to say. I had so many thoughts while you were, but then I just was like, that was like so profound.
[00:14:50] Ami Graves: Yes. So I don't, I dunno what
[00:14:51] Marci Coppola: it's true though. I mean, how many times have we seen that where, you know, it's like if you had just addressed. The root cause of your problems. We wouldn't have to be here. Now we're sitting in court and now you're paying an 11 and a half million dollars settlement. Right? It's like expensive, expensive, expensive.
[00:15:11] Marci Coppola: Right? And it comes back to, again, it's like, well, perhaps these, watching these trainings and just sitting through them. And not retaining that information clearly didn't help you. So again, it comes back to how can we think through the best course of conversation of exactly. To your point, LaToya, because performance reviews are, are clearly not going anywhere.
[00:15:34] Marci Coppola: At least we've talked about it to death where we thought they were gonna go away and they keep coming back. So then the question remains, it's just like, well, so. But then the evidence in this case is like she was actually promoted, like there wasn't anything to stay. It's to state that this was an employee that had a quote performance issue.
[00:15:52] Marci Coppola: So that right then and there, it's like, well, hold on. If you did that thorough of an investigation, that should have been one of the biggest red flags to say, okay, we're terminating this employee who didn't necessarily have a track record of underperformance. But we have seen that quite often in HR where it gets to a point where leaders.
[00:16:11] Marci Coppola: And then they almost freeze because they're afraid of what to say. They get so afraid of the lawsuit that they're afraid of what to say. So then what happens, LaToya to your point too, is they, it's like they, we, they sit on those things. So then inaction then becomes that, you know, method of like, well, I don't know what to say or how to say it.
[00:16:29] Marci Coppola: I'm paralyzed by what to say because I'm afraid of being held liable. So I need HR in the conversation to help me keep it up. Yes. Right?
[00:16:38] Ami Graves: Yeah. Why do they, why do managers all the time wanna hand that, but that manager baton to HR happens a lot. So it happens all the time. It's like, yes, can you, can you, or if they don't like physically hand us the baton, like they actually want us to be the ones to have the conversation with their employee, they definitely will say, well, HR said.
[00:16:58] Ami Graves: HR is hide behind us. Yes. Oh my gosh. It's such a pain in the ass. That was okay. My a DH ADHD was all over the place. But I thought about what I was gonna say. This is just, you know, welcome to my world. Um, but what I was gonna say was I get so aggravated. Annoyed. I think. Yeah. I mean, I've just been in, maybe it's time for me to retire.
[00:17:18] Ami Graves: I'm not there yet, but like I just feel myself getting more annoyed the older I get with things like this. But I may, I'm not, no, not there yet, but a manager will talk about putting somebody on a performance improvement plan and the same conversation where they talk about terming them, drives me bonkers.
[00:17:34] Ami Graves: Just call it an exit plan. Don't call it a perform. Yes, because the performance improve. Yes. Be be honest about it and be honest about it. A performance improvement plan is exactly. A plan to help their performance, I would've thought. Right. Um, and, and honestly, because that happens. Employees, they're like, don't like blow smoke up my ass.
[00:17:55] Ami Graves: You're trying to get rid of me when you put me up. Yes. And so I'm like, it's really frustrating when that happens. I think that's one of the things that I really like, wanna, I try to coach managers on and, and thank goodness, like we've got some pretty good habits created where I'm at right now because.
[00:18:10] Ami Graves: If we're putting you on a performance improvement plan, I actually don't have to have too many of those conversations with managers. It's more employees. I'm on a performance improvement plan. Are they, are they trying to get rid of me? No, we're trying to get, get you from A to B. You know, we're trying to really, truly, and I've seen a lot of.
[00:18:25] Ami Graves: Performance improve when somebody's on a performance improvement plan.
[00:18:28] Marci Coppola: I was gonna ask you that. Have you seen that? Because I think
[00:18:30] Ami Graves: I have.
[00:18:31] Marci Coppola: I think employees feel that there's no way out of that. Sometimes they feel one that performance improvement plan's coming to their
[00:18:38] Ami Graves: attention. Well, that could be right.
[00:18:40] Ami Graves: Depending on their manager, depending on, that's it. Depending on their leader. That could be true. You know? So it's our job, right? To equip our managers.
[00:18:50] LaToya Davis: Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. It depends on the leaders, right? Like you, and this is where we play a big role because to your point, Amy, if the conversation we're having about initiating a performance proven plan is already intertwined with termination, besides just you, you're allowed to ask questions, leaders if you're listening.
[00:19:07] LaToya Davis: But if your question is how, well, like for example, I've heard these words verbatim, how long until we can terminate them again, another red flag. So this is the type of thing that you should be able to watch out for, because what I think happens in that is that if you are already going into it with a predetermined mindset of what the outcome is gonna be, how good of a coach in the performance improvement plan are you going to be, and so I can coach you and try to redirect your thought process on this.
[00:19:35] LaToya Davis: But I'm also, again, not going to be able to do that for you. So if the, if the leader is not committed to actually improving performance and it's just like, Hey, I just gotta check the boxes and go through the time that it takes. Side note, I've also had people, can we speed this process up? Can we cut this?
[00:19:51] LaToya Davis: Yeah. Again, another red flag. But all of those things are indicators of that. And then they say things to employees, and again, I don't know everything that was said here to this. This woman, but things like that is where you are. You are fueling the lawsuit pipeline at this point because all of those are very valid reasons to believe that your intentions were not on the positive side of this.
[00:20:16] LaToya Davis: And then, you know, in this case, it is not just retaliation, but also discrimination to, my reason to believe is that all of this has happened as a result of someone's bias or, you know, discrimination. The burden of is on the employer, and if your actions have aligned to the things that we saw in this.
[00:20:40] LaToya Davis: Whether that was your intent, the impact is there.
[00:20:43] Marci Coppola: I ex Well, that's the thing, and again, at the end of the day, I always say this too, is people, people judge us by our actions, not our intentions. Your intentions can be pure, right? But your actions are what people observe. That's the observable takeaway that people have is the way you show up, how you act, the things that you say.
[00:21:00] Marci Coppola: And it's okay if at times, you know, Hey, this was my intention. It didn't come out appropriately. And sometimes with the leaders, I'm like, well, what? How about stop running from the conversation and actually just be honest and just say, you know what, I probably fumbled this a little bit. I could have done better in this conversation.
[00:21:18] Marci Coppola: Talk to me about how I made you feel in that moment. And I promised to do better. And as somebody who has had the privilege and the honor of being a people leader. Of multiple, when I say multiple different levels, different backgrounds, different race, generations, experiences, sexuality, gender, literally all of it.
[00:21:41] Marci Coppola: Like I've had such a, a privilege of, of doing that. And one of the first things that I do is I sit down and I have zero assumptions. I won't even listen. To what somebody else has to say about the person. I get the feedback. I'll get like historical context after I have the initial conversation because I wanna understand from their point of view what it is as their leader I could be doing differently or how do they like to be managed or has there been times where they maybe felt left out?
[00:22:10] Marci Coppola: And I will tell you, I had a woman. Who similar background to this plaintiff, and that was one of my first questions because I was like, I'm not gonna sit here and assume I know everything about how life has been for you or how the workforce shows up for you. So talk to me, tell me. And we ended up developing an amazing relationship, and all I had to do was just be vulnerable because I wasn't going to be.
[00:22:37] Marci Coppola: The expert on everything and know Exactly, you know. 'cause I also say like, I hate when people say like, oh, I know exactly what you're going through. No you don't. No, no you don't. Right. You can say you understand, you can understand where somebody's coming from, but you don't know 'cause you're not walking in their shoes.
[00:22:53] Marci Coppola: And that would be one of the first things that I would admit and say. And I remember saying to her, I said, if I ever fumble the ball or I ever say something, or I said just, I said, I wanna be called out. I wanna be called out because I'm trying to be better as a leader there. And I remember I was a first time people leader when I had this conversation, and so I knew, and I think people get so afraid to say things and be honest, and be open and be vulnerable because they're afraid of judgment or they're afraid they're gonna say the wrong thing and they, I think the world views this as we live in a culture where lawsuits can happen in any minute, but.
[00:23:32] Marci Coppola: Come on. Like, yeah.
[00:23:34] Ami Graves: Yeah. You,
[00:23:35] Marci Coppola: you have to really fumble the ball to get to that point, honestly, where there's a lawsuit.
[00:23:39] Ami Graves: Yeah, absolutely. 'cause I think that's, that's exa Another thing I keep thinking about is, and I'll kind of in introduce kind of this Coldplay situation, right? I know it's, it's kind of, you know, old news these days since, ever since SHRM decided to, you know, take us down this path.
[00:23:52] Ami Graves: But that whole scenario, like I, I, I don't love it clearly. They both should have been let go as they were or resigned, whatever you wanna call it. But, you know, I understand organizations are made up of people and people make mistakes and they make the wrong turn sometime. But it's just really, really tough when it happens to an HR person.
[00:24:15] Ami Graves: And let's be clear, like we're probably gonna fuck it up tomorrow. Who knows? Like I, we're messy ever. We're human. We, we, nobody's perfect. But the SRM thing is like. Dude, really like, it's so extreme and, and this Coldplay thing, like even that is shocking. It's like, I can't even imagine. Like, I, I just can't understand it.
[00:24:37] Ami Graves: Know you're in public
[00:24:38] Marci Coppola: setting. You're literally in a public setting.
[00:24:40] Ami Graves: You, at
[00:24:42] LaToya Davis: the time it's 2025. It's not like everywhere. Like my kids say when we grew up, when, you
[00:24:48] Ami Graves: know,
[00:24:48] LaToya Davis: like before the store, make it out. You know, they said that. I'm like, that's true, but why does it sound so bad? Like, it's crazy. But it's like, like back in our day, golden Girls, um, you know, you'd had to take that picture of Walgreens, get it developed, pass it to your friends, like it would've taken a long time in that story.
[00:25:12] LaToya Davis: But you know, like, again, this is why many of us are in the positions that we're, because of what? There wasn't real documentation. But you see this every day. The interconnection between social media and corporate America is strong, and the people that are still in denial about that use this as a reminder.
[00:25:29] LaToya Davis: That liter, I don't even think those people had left the concert before. It was on social media, like everyone's talking about it. So it's like at some point there's just basic judgment, like, yes, can you have a team, team building, you know? Exercise or outing with your colleagues? Yes. Is there inappropriate behavior that could happen and said things, and you should be mindful of that.
[00:25:56] LaToya Davis: 'cause it wasn't even like they were just alone. They had other people in the company. That's wild, literal. That was my big thing there. It's like, there's,
[00:26:03] Ami Graves: there's so many layers of issue there.
[00:26:05] Marci Coppola: That was, that one was wild.
[00:26:07] LaToya Davis: That what I was, people that are running the company, the policies, you're setting the po, the, the company strategy and the culture and you think that it's appropriate to have this type of interaction, whatever that was.
[00:26:19] Ami Graves: Yeah.
[00:26:19] LaToya Davis: And then you also think it's totally fine for other people to see that because again, like we run the company and we're exempt from that.
[00:26:27] Ami Graves: Totally. Couldn't, couldn't have found somebody like, I don't know, the VP of sales, the, like somebody's
[00:26:34] Marci Coppola: on the road a lot.
[00:26:35] Ami Graves: Like somebody who, somebody who's not the CEO O you
[00:26:38] LaToya Davis: report
[00:26:38] Ami Graves: to,
[00:26:39] LaToya Davis: there's men probably like.
[00:26:41] LaToya Davis: I know the dating world is rough. Let's try not to date your boss.
[00:26:46] Marci Coppola: Like forget it, like we get it. We know it's rough out there, but at the same time it's just like, come on, man. Discretion. Like a little bit of discretion. That's why I joked in the beginning and I said, true. It's just like I. I say that all the time.
[00:26:57] Marci Coppola: I'm like, words can just be hot air without any actions or actual accountability behind them. It's just, that's why the words values, you know, don't build the trust. It's like if, sure, I could put all the values that are important to me, but it's like if you're not consistent with your actions and your behaviors, they're just words.
[00:27:12] Marci Coppola: They're just words on paper, and that's, it's just. Come on guys, like we gotta do better. And that's why I said I, you know, HR put themselves on the map in all the wrong ways in these situations. We did just, you know, oh man, we're human beings. We absolutely are imperfect. Like I gave my example about being a first time people leader for a reason.
[00:27:29] Marci Coppola: Because listen, I was scared shitless. There was times where I was like, oh, I just hope I get this right. And I was so in my head, and I remember in that moment just thinking. Just have a conversation with people, Marci, like just talk to people. And that's what I did and I was just so grateful that, you know, we got to that point where, you know, people literally said, you know what, Marci, there's been times where I felt like this or I was left out of a meeting.
[00:27:50] Marci Coppola: Or the biggest thing I heard, the biggest thing I heard is I had a very intelligent young black female who said to me, I would come up with ideas in the meeting and somebody else would take credit. My manager would take credit and, and so I, that stayed with me. I will never forget that. So it's like, I remember going outta my way to make sure, I was like, how can I give her the visit?
[00:28:11] Marci Coppola: Because first of all, I'm a people leader. If she looks good, that, like, that's what I should want. Like I would want, I should want that, I should want her to shine. And so of course, you know, but people, it's just, it gets competitive and people get threatened and you know, you see that, right? You, you see that for sure.
[00:28:29] Marci Coppola: But then don't be a people leader. Like if your ego can't get past the, the notion that you might have people on your team smarter than you, then you shouldn't be a people leader. Because frankly speaking, I'll hire people more intelligent than me all day long.
[00:28:41] Ami Graves: All
[00:28:41] Marci Coppola: day works for me.
[00:28:43] LaToya Davis: Yeah. And this is again, like HR, like in that case, I know in the, there's a lot of, when it was happening, I was like, of course I had people reaching out to record me.
[00:28:51] LaToya Davis: Like,
[00:28:52] Ami Graves: what is your specific opinion on this? It was like, oh, I got lots of opinions. Yeah.
[00:28:55] LaToya Davis: But. Similar to what you said, A lot of people, oh, well HR, like instead of saying what I was thinking, I would tell you my initial reaction was not, oh, well they're cheating her differently because she's a woman. And maybe that's true 'cause there are biases.
[00:29:11] LaToya Davis: But my initial thought is like, to some degree, as an HR leader myself, I do think that, I think they had shared accountability. Let me be clear. But however. People start coming off that're saying that there was cultural issues in this company. There was a lot of issues going on. And yes, if you are looking up at the top, and this is why tying it back, Tom like.
[00:29:30] LaToya Davis: If the mothership, whether it's in the department, in the company, in the governing body of the function is getting off center, it does erode a little bit of the culture. So again, it's more than just the words. And so I. People do hold a lot of thing. If HR is not just demonstrating the behaviors of the policies, the processes, and the practices that we promote for the culture that we are accountable to set, then that sets the tone for the rest of the organization.
[00:29:58] LaToya Davis: Now, leadership has the same accountability, right? Like it's not HR'sjob to, to make people do it, but you do need to model the behavior. So I said. My first reaction as an HR leader was, how dare you do this to the function? Now people are gonna be looking to me side Exactly like HR people.
[00:30:13] Ami Graves: Exactly,
[00:30:14] LaToya Davis: yes. And follow their own process.
[00:30:16] Marci Coppola: Like we, it's like, man, you're making us look bad, especially so bad. That piece where I was like, oh my gosh. She literally was trying to push. For the evidence to be shared that this is the standard, like they're the gold standard like this, this status as, as SHRM being the best in HR practices and SHRM was literally trying to say, you know, no, that shouldn't be entered as evidence.
[00:30:36] Marci Coppola: I'm like, right,
[00:30:37] LaToya Davis: you're the
[00:30:37] Ami Graves: authority. Yeah. Why would that not be entered?
[00:30:42] Marci Coppola: It's
[00:30:42] Ami Graves: like the most key piece of evidence.
[00:30:44] Marci Coppola: Yeah. And that, so that's why I was just like, come on, like come on. Like you're just, it just, it made it cringe to read some of the takeaways. And again, like, you know, we're talking about something that, look, we weren't all there and saw every single detail.
[00:30:57] Marci Coppola: So I know SHRM is basically saying that they're going to appeal. They feel very strongly that they have evidence to show that. For them. I
[00:31:06] Ami Graves: look forward to hearing all about that
[00:31:07] Marci Coppola: and, and
[00:31:08] Ami Graves: we'll be eating our words, guys. We don't
[00:31:09] Marci Coppola: know. And that, and here's the thing, thing, I don't think so. Think, go for it.
[00:31:12] Marci Coppola: Like that's what, you know, we all have the right to do that, right? We have the right to appeal. We have the right to, you know, and if they make their case, okay, but it doesn't look good for me. What doesn't look good is, is again, the investigation process itself. Like that is where, so regardless if there's other evidence that comes forward or whatever, it's just.
[00:31:30] Marci Coppola: But to, to then sit and put paper termination paperwork together while you're just, it's like, then you're immediately, like we going back to earlier what we said, it's just, you know, I have a problem and the problem isn't me. The problem is them, and I need them to go away.
[00:31:45] LaToya Davis: Make this goal. Hold on. Being in full circle to your, to your point, Amy, your question around like, would it felt different?
[00:31:51] LaToya Davis: I still would've been very disappointed in the Of course, fact that they didn't have a better process, right? Like Yeah. And they could have just read their own handbook. But also,
[00:32:00] Ami Graves: yeah,
[00:32:01] LaToya Davis: it does change things. If you take accountability early on, like, it's okay, is it going to make this all going? No, but it's certainly not gonna exacerbate that.
[00:32:11] LaToya Davis: So there are times where I'm just like. We have investigations come across where it's just like, okay, for all intents and purposes, if this. Employee X is saying, I feel like I'm being discriminated against. The investigation plays out and then the outcome. I'm like, yeah, or the investigator says, it does appear that there were discriminatory behaviors as a company, as an organization.
[00:32:33] LaToya Davis: Instead of trying to sweep that under the rug and say, okay, well maybe we just offer that person a package and then they'll go away. That is not usually gonna pay out. Again, we're in a time where information travels real fast. People are very savvy because information is available to them. You think they could take your, your.
[00:32:50] LaToya Davis: Offer and then immediately go talk to a lawyer and then still come back with a, with something that would allow them to turn this into something like that versus a company saying, Hey, while we are accountable to train our leaders to be better. We are also coming to hold them to a code of conduct standard.
[00:33:08] LaToya Davis: And if you violate that, we will hold you accountable. So if something goes wrong, acknowledge it. Don't try to hide it. And this is an important role for HR to say, like, if the investigation, let's not encourage the behavior that says, okay, now let, now that we know that we gotta figure out how to, this doesn't look bad on us because there is a little bit of a overlap between PR and HR.
[00:33:29] LaToya Davis: Like, don't get into this, this cycle with, with the company. Integrity within HR is really important. Like you've gotta be the one, sometimes you gotta be the one to say, I don't agree with that. Like I don't believe that the right thing to do here is to try to get rid of the problem.
[00:33:43] Ami Graves: Right.
[00:33:43] LaToya Davis: Slope. And it's a
[00:33:44] Ami Graves: still slope.
[00:33:44] LaToya Davis: We address issue and if the issue is that leader,
[00:33:46] Ami Graves: mm-hmm. Yeah, I was just gonna say, LaToya, it's a slippery slope too, because then let's just say that you give that package and they go away quietly, and you got lucky this time. What you've done is condone a behavior and guess what? It's gonna happen again and again in you, in your company, and happen here.
[00:34:05] Ami Graves: And again. Yeah. And so all you've done is kicked the bucket down the road for the next time it happens, which could be worse or more expensive or whatever.
[00:34:14] Marci Coppola: 11.5 million, $5
[00:34:17] LaToya Davis: million. And if think gets Mario, find out the other people that they allegedly believe may have, uh, may have had this situation. Oh my gosh.
[00:34:24] LaToya Davis: Now you have a class action lawsuit book. I was just
[00:34:26] Marci Coppola: gonna say that
[00:34:27] LaToya Davis: in this chapter, it's like, what happens when this happens? Over and over again because this isn't just a, this isn't just an isolated situation. It's a behavior. And that can impact people that are even still in the company. Because again, to your point, Amy, if you're allowing the behavior, then it becomes an acceptable practice.
[00:34:44] LaToya Davis: And again, people, they go out and find other people where there's smoke, there's fire. And I have said that in many meetings to and related to topics like this, this is likely not an isolated event. If that leader has done this, they've probably done it before. In fact, I don't even think the investigation should be over at this point because we need to figure out what else is going on in this organization.
[00:35:05] LaToya Davis: And if you don't, they might find their friends and a lawyer and then turn this into a class action lawsuit, which also happens a lot.
[00:35:12] Ami Graves: Yep, yep, that's right. Why don't we guys think about the, I know a little bit kind of side sidestepping, so SRM Coldplay, and by the way, like I just wanna say too. Listen, we're being, we're being hard as we should on SHRM, this governing body and this whole Coldplay thing.
[00:35:29] Ami Graves: But the truth is, I would not want anybody shining a light on me when I was in my twenties. Can I just tell you my, in my first HR job, I was in Kansas City. I came home to Indianapolis. I was. A young 21 fresh. Just fresh 21. I wanted to stay home and party with my friends, so I called in sick and my boss was like, he, I didn't go back to Kansas till Tuesday when I went back.
[00:35:56] Ami Graves: I will never forget him saying to me, Amy, your team really wa was counting on you. They, we really in a, they needed you. And I was crushed. You know how you, when your dad is like, I'm disappointed, disappointed in you, and you're like, oh,
[00:36:08] LaToya Davis: I'm
[00:36:09] Ami Graves: disa disappointed
[00:36:09] LaToya Davis: in you.
[00:36:10] Ami Graves: Yeah. I was like, just, I'd rather just gimme a spanking instead of telling me you're disappointed.
[00:36:15] Ami Graves: That's how I felt in that moment because I respected him so much. He was such a great leader and a mentor to me and like. I owed a lot to him and the fact that I disappointed him and disappointed myself, you know, I'm like, did I really just do that? I wanna tell you that I never did that again because, but I, we've all done dumb shit and made mistakes and had bad behavior, but
[00:36:37] Marci Coppola: made mistakes.
[00:36:37] Ami Graves: You are the executive HR leader and you are, you know, canoodling at the Coldplay concert with your CEO. That is a problem. Okay. So anyways, but I did wanna ask a question of you. I wanna switch gears to this University of Michigan situation, which by the way, there's like so many elements here. I, I don't wanna, I know that we, we don't have a ton of time to get into it, but I am like curious about your thoughts on this because first I wanna just say I hope he's okay.
[00:37:03] Ami Graves: I, I mean mental health is a big deal and when you get like some serious, when you get fired from your job and you're kind of knocked off that pedestal there, there is a lot I think of feelings that come with that. Yes, he created this bed himself, no question about it. And then did all the wrong things.
[00:37:19] Ami Graves: But I'm more interested in talking about like this power play. Like again, you've got this high level coach, right? And this, you know, assistant. I'm just, I'm surprised that we are still surprised that this stuff happens and what the outcomes can be. Why do people. This coach, these people at the Coldplay concert think that they are invincible and untouchable and it'll, especially to LaToya, to your point in this day and age.
[00:37:46] Ami Graves: Right. Why is this happening? Just the flesh gets ahold of us. Is that what
[00:37:51] LaToya Davis: this is exactly? I don't really Coming outta that. The University Quin thing. Yeah. The type of stuff that I was hearing from people, again, not necessarily HR practitioners, um, who had the SHRM certification, people that were saying things like, but it was consensual.
[00:38:04] LaToya Davis: They're adults. Like what he does in his private life doesn't matter. X. X. X. All incorrect, incorrect answer. Here's the thing, when you get to a certain point in your career, your personal life does matter. And if you don't like that, then accept that. I tell people all the time, I, when I used to do onboarding and stuff, I give people all these documents and I have to remind leaders all the time.
[00:38:25] LaToya Davis: You sign things like. A code of conduct, uh uh, agreement, non-disclosure, lots of things, and they're just like, oh, yes, thank you for the Alfred. It's so awesome. I can't wait to join you. And then when stuff like this comes up, yes, okay, you can say that. Here's the thing, at paragraph six, page four, you said you understood that the policy was you cannot have an.
[00:38:44] LaToya Davis: Any type of relationship with people that are less senior than you, or in your organi, you signed all of this. But we tend to forget that. And I think that's where I was trying to say like, I'm like, Hey people. As your HR friend, let me just remind you, most of these things are, it's a policy. Now, every company doesn't have nepotism policies or code of conduct.
[00:39:05] LaToya Davis: If you don't, you should. But also in this case, that is what they, that is the reason for I. Now, this one I dug deep in. Because I was like, no, they called out his reason for termination 'cause he violated that policy specifically. He signed an agreement to that. Clearly stated, you cannot have any type of relationship outside of the work relationship with someone that was a subordinate of you, which is good practice to have because in a position to make decisions that can impact people's pay, their org, their talent, and he
[00:39:38] Ami Graves: did impact her pay.
[00:39:39] Ami Graves: He
[00:39:39] LaToya Davis: did. That is why they do this. And he did all of those things.
[00:39:46] Ami Graves: I mean, allegedly, I don't know. No.
[00:39:48] LaToya Davis: The side note where he's married and all these other things, I don't. I care on the personal dad because I'm just like, that's not cool. Right? Yeah. But on an HR note, I was like, yeah, you, and very clear policy. And then all the things that can go wrong in these types of scenarios you did that you deserve to be fired.
[00:40:04] Ami Graves: Yeah. Went wrong. Yep. Consequences. Hard. Consequences. Hard lesson to learn. Consequences. Yeah. Hard lesson to learn, man. Yes.
[00:40:11] LaToya Davis: No, I was just saying, you were like, well, why didn't she get fired too? Number one, she reported him and she didn't sign the same agreement that which is a, which is actually a a fact.
[00:40:19] LaToya Davis: She was not the one who had to uphold. Agreement because, you know, she actually reported it, but she also was not the one who was the held accountable because he was the more senior person. And again, that part is a choice, but it, that was one of the reasons why she didn't have the same re, the same recourse from the, the situation.
[00:40:40] Ami Graves: I think that makes sense. Yeah.
[00:40:42] Marci Coppola: Oh man.
[00:40:44] Ami Graves: I wanna ask, have, have either of you ever been named. A suit or maybe not a suit. I've not been named in a lawsuit, but I have been named in an EEOC claim. And lemme just tell you,
[00:40:55] Marci Coppola: oh,
[00:40:56] Ami Graves: not fun. No, not fun. And I clearly, I'm still bitter about it, you know, I am still bitter about it.
[00:41:04] Ami Graves: I am frustrated. I think I had, I had, this has happened. It's happened a couple of times. Thankfully. You know, this is just the joy of being in HR, but. At one time I had to let someone go on my team and they filed a suit that I was discriminating them against them because they were a woman over 40. I also was a woman over 40, so I was like, okay.
[00:41:33] Ami Graves: I mean, which doesn't mean you can't discriminate against somebody over 40. If you're over 40, that can happen, but it did not happen. Very disheartening and so hard. I think that's one of the other things about HR that's just so tough. We're people too, we have feelings too, to be accused of something that you have.
[00:41:50] Ami Graves: Absolutely not done. Thank God. We had so much documentation and proof and that went absolutely nowhere. You know? Of course. 'cause you
[00:41:57] Marci Coppola: had documentation. '
[00:41:57] Ami Graves: cause I know what I was doing and I
[00:41:59] Marci Coppola: did. You dog and you had action to back it up.
[00:42:02] Ami Graves: Yes, absolutely. Of course. There
[00:42:04] Marci Coppola: you go.
[00:42:04] Ami Graves: But still hurtful like it is.
[00:42:07] Ami Graves: It's so hurtful.
[00:42:09] Marci Coppola: It's not personal. The person, yeah. The person in that moment is feeling an emotional response. They're in a bad place. Right. Potentially mentally, emotionally, there's a lot of things that trigger that, and it's not personal against you. It's they feel in their heart that in an injustice has been done and they feel that they wanna pursue an action, which would.
[00:42:30] Marci Coppola: Show in their favor, but ultimately, when you act with integrity and you have the actions to back up those policies, like you stated, it all works out right and nobody's perfect. And there's absolutely things that we've all done where we're like, damn, I wish I, but that's how you learn. But when you blatantly and openly discriminate, when you blatantly and openly decide.
[00:42:52] Marci Coppola: I know I signed this policy, but I want to go dittle my coworker. Like, come on. Like there's, it's just like there's, and then
[00:42:59] Ami Graves: give her a $40,000 raise. That sounds great.
[00:43:02] Marci Coppola: Exactly. It's just like, those are things that, I'm sorry, those are the consequences of your actions. Like Exactly. You actually can't get away with that.
[00:43:08] Marci Coppola: If you wanted to do your thing and have an affair, if those, you know, the CEO and the HR leader wanted to go do their thing, it's like. We can't ultimately follow you around and watch your behavior on a personal level, but when you decide you're going to put it out there in a public setting, or when you decide that you're gonna act in a way that you feel you're untouchable and you're invincible, those are the consequences that end up catching up to your actions because you're not untouchable and you're not invincible if you don't want things like that to happen to you, you have two choices.
[00:43:40] Marci Coppola: One, don't put yourself in that position and make better choices. Or two, don't. Put yourself in a position to climb the corporate ladder and be in a highly visible role
[00:43:49] LaToya Davis: that's,
[00:43:49] Marci Coppola: you
[00:43:50] LaToya Davis: wanna do what you wanna do, like it's pretty
[00:43:52] Marci Coppola: simple.
[00:43:53] LaToya Davis: Took another path. Mm-hmm. And yeah, it's really not that hard. And I, and I agree.
[00:43:58] LaToya Davis: I think that Amy, I've definitely been on the other side of that, where it was like. If I hold myself in higher integrity, and I know that I've done the right things still, that in initial gut punch when your name is indicated or legal, has to call you and be like, okay, just so you know,
[00:44:12] Ami Graves: your
[00:44:12] LaToya Davis: name is also, and like, like, like a personal attack type.
[00:44:17] LaToya Davis: I said all the things, right? Like I called it all the Redex, like, um, and, and it does feel like that. But, but mercy, I can't agree with you more. You, you have to take a step back and say like, I know that I did the right thing, and again, been in the game for a long time. I got receipts upon receipts like so.
[00:44:33] LaToya Davis: No, we are gonna get through that. But it is painful. And again, like I said earlier, even with the sh the, the, the burden of proof is on the company, right? They come in with whatever it is that their perception of what reality is. And most of the time it is not intent. They're not being deceitful, they're telling their truth.
[00:44:50] LaToya Davis: This is what I experienced, which we're not then, and that's not how you felt, but our documentation, our evidence should support the fact that that's not actually. What happened and when your evidence does not support that is when you find yourself in a, a situation where you have to pay out millions of dollars because you did not do that.
[00:45:08] LaToya Davis: And again, it could also be. You're not just named anymore. And also it's, this is why we talk about the importance of like a document. And this is why people love HR so much in some cases because we're just like document documenting. So they're the person where you're like, I got you. 'cause we got 16 folders with all the things that I told you to do and send and it's been protected and it's in a legal hold.
[00:45:26] LaToya Davis: So we're all good. But it is, it is still a lot of work and it takes a lot of time. Even just to prove that what you did, what, you know, you did all the right things. You still sometimes have to show that. But it is so important to do those things and that's why like for our HR family, like if you are hearing, like if leaders are trying to coach you, like let's beat this up.
[00:45:47] LaToya Davis: You're like, I don't wanna have to go through all that. Oh, that just seems like a lot. Listen, you have to, sometimes you have to remind them this could go very differently. Like,
[00:45:56] Ami Graves: that's right.
[00:45:57] LaToya Davis: You don't, it's gonna take a whole lot more time for us to be in, like I've been in like an eight hour. Like arbitration where you're going back and forth like you don't want, do you, this, this is gonna take a whole lot less time than what it could be if this doesn't, if we don't document and do the right things the right way and give it is due process,
[00:46:16] Marci Coppola: that's right on.
[00:46:17] Marci Coppola: And it's less expe, it's less expensive. Guys like do it. We won't be honestly in court. She out millions of dollars. So with your
[00:46:24] Ami Graves: name on a, your name on a headline somewhere, nobody wants that.
[00:46:28] Marci Coppola: No. You know, nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. Hundred percent. Agree with that, LaToya, and, and it brings up, I think, you know, we can go down a rabbit hole with this one, but it brings up a broader conversation around people, leadership and the responsibility that you take when you decide that you are going to lead teams.
[00:46:44] Marci Coppola: And, you know, there's such a thing as leading from the front and then leading from behind. And you have to know when those moments are and know when. You know you have to trust your team to make decisions when you can't be micromanaging everything. But you also made the decision that you wanted to lead people and be responsible for people or other people, right?
[00:47:03] Marci Coppola: And for other people. And that means like it or not, you are responsible for how you're making your team feel every day. That emotional intelligence. Is part of the equation. And if you have somebody on your team who's showing up to work, who feels excluded from meetings, who's looking around at, at other colleagues, and they're going, okay, like what?
[00:47:22] Marci Coppola: Like what's wrong with me? Like, why? Like why am I not being given the chances? Why do I feel this way? I feel like crap showing up to work every day. You, you need to be able to have that conversation with the employee and they need to feel heard. If you would just let that person feel heard in that moment and say.
[00:47:38] Marci Coppola: Oh shit, I, this was not my intention and wow, I really messed this up. And like, how can I make this better and fix it in that moment? Oh my God, you could have saved how much money and, and
[00:47:49] Ami Graves: so much stress.
[00:47:50] Marci Coppola: So much stress, you know much, so much stress, so much. It sometimes it's as simple as that. It's just like have the conversation regardless if it's uncomfortable.
[00:47:58] Marci Coppola: I've never, and, and the two of you, please, like, let me know if you've experienced this. I've never had an employee come up to me and say, Marci is my HR leader. I need to complain to you. 'cause my people leader was very honest with me.
[00:48:11] Ami Graves: Right. Never,
[00:48:13] Marci Coppola: never happened.
[00:48:15] Ami Graves: No.
[00:48:15] Marci Coppola: They, they may say they were very honest with me.
[00:48:18] Marci Coppola: It was a little, and I didn't like what they
[00:48:20] Ami Graves: said.
[00:48:20] Marci Coppola: I didn't like what they said, but they were honest with me. Mm-hmm. They actually told me something that I haven't heard. Yeah, and I needed to hear that.
[00:48:29] Ami Graves: Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen. I, uh, I think we should put a disclaimer out here. Everybody. Marci, use your elevator voice.
[00:48:38] Ami Graves: I'm gonna say it, but you're gonna say it so much better. All of the people we've talked about today and the organizations are innocent until proven guilty. Right? Um, these are, these are just allegations.
[00:48:49] Marci Coppola: We're not exactly, we're not the judge, the jury, the executioner here. We're just having an honest conversation about what we feel went wrong.
[00:48:56] Marci Coppola: Yeah, that's right. And in this case, that's evidence was provided, a decision was made. But we are not here to say that, you know, we know every single fact about the case. So if SHR RM decides to come back and they have appeal and something happens. Okay, fine. We're only speaking on behalf of what we've experienced in the workforce, how these things can go wrong.
[00:49:16] Marci Coppola: You know, LaToya gave some really great examples. You gave some great examples, Amy, where you've been a part of that personally. And I think that's the whole point, is that we can see how these things can go off the rails and what could happen when we're not careful with. Buttoning up our policies and actually showing what we mean by the policies.
[00:49:35] Marci Coppola: Because again, you might as well light that paper on fire. Those policies don't mean anything if you're not actually enacting them and you're, and you're showcasing them, you know, to your employees. So that's ultimately what we're saying is that, you know, man, this really went wrong. And so many ways for HR.
[00:49:50] Ami Graves: That's right.
[00:49:50] LaToya Davis: Totally. That, that's right. Like again, and I think that me, the thing that I want people to really take away, like I think we, if you take anything away from this. Besides the fact that these are opinions and that they are not related to anything else we're associated with, I add that into the elevator pitch.
[00:50:06] LaToya Davis: Um,
[00:50:07] Ami Graves: that's right. That's right.
[00:50:08] LaToya Davis: They're our personal opinions. Mm-hmm. But also it's like. Again, to build on what Marci said, policies are paper at the end of the day. It's not about that, the, the truth and the true litmus test and, and to really drive your culture. It's about how you enforce those policies, how you hold people accountable, how you hold leaders accountable to the role that they have in organizations as leaders, and also us as HR leaders.
[00:50:31] LaToya Davis: We play a huge role in how we show up, how we act. Obviously, we have to practice what we preach because without that. All of these policies are just pieces of paper. They mean nothing. Right? Until you can back it up with the right action. And you've gotta be willing to be the person to say what needs to be said, even if it's uncomfortable.
[00:50:51] LaToya Davis: Like if, even if what that, what is being asked to be, regardless of what the hierarchy is. X the title. Do what you know is right. That's right. Even if it's uncomfortable and if nobody wants to listen to you, you are not exempt from escalating outside of the organization. Everybody has a boss. There's a governing authority over every authority.
[00:51:09] LaToya Davis: If the mothership of HR can go down mm-hmm. Anybody can go down.
[00:51:13] Ami Graves: Sure. Amen. I feel like I could like pick this up and drop it. Mic drop from LaToya.
[00:51:18] Marci Coppola: The mic
[00:51:18] Ami Graves: has been
[00:51:19] LaToya Davis: drop
[00:51:20] Ami Graves: the mic. Mic has been dropped. Drop the mic. Thank you. Thank you HR Misfits for joining us for this. Super fun episode. These girls are awesome.
[00:51:28] Ami Graves: We're having a great time. We will see you again really soon. Thanks for listening to HR Misfits, where people leadership gets real. If this conversation resonated with you, follow the show and subscribe wherever you watch or listen. And if you're a leader navigating complex, high stakes people decisions, we're also building The HR Misfits Collective.
[00:51:48] Ami Graves: A place for real counsel, not HR theater. You can find us online. At www.thehrmisfits.com.