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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Tracy: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:19] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative [00:00:25] approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to support, inspire and empower. Are those dedicated to nurturing the next generation? I'm your host, Tracy White, and today I'm chatting to Louise Shields. Louise is a school business manager at the Beacon of Light Alternative Provision School based in Sunderland in the Northeast.
[00:00:47] As part of her role, she has embraced, continued [00:00:50] to develop and embed a positive culture within her school workforce, focusing on mental health and wellbeing. Louisa's worked in education for. Almost 25 years in a varied settings ranging from kindergarten, SEMH, primary and mainstream secondary schools, and she uses her knowledge and understanding gathered from this experience to improve the ethos among staff in her [00:01:15] school.
[00:01:15] Louise is a still human wellbeing champion, along with being a senior mental health lead with place to bay lead law trusts, menopause ambassador. Mental Health First Data, mental health counselor and occupational therapist. She has a passion for looking after staff members and making sure that they have a safe space and voice, along with creating initiatives to lift [00:01:40] spirits and make sure that her team are a priority.
[00:01:47] Hello Louise and welcome to The Still Human Podcast. I'm so happy that you've agreed. To talk with us today, and I'm really excited to hear about your wellbeing journey.
[00:01:59] Louise: Hi, Tracy. Yeah, nice to interact with. Still human again. As you know, I'm probably [00:02:05] a still human, big biggest fan, so yeah, a bit massive.
[00:02:09] Absolute pleasure to be part of this.
[00:02:11] Tracy: Brilliant. Well, let's dive into the first question then, Louise. So tell our listeners what got you interested in staff wellbeing? Like was there a particular moment or experience that made you realize how important this actually is?
[00:02:27] Louise: I've worked in education now for [00:02:30] 25 years, and over the, over the years, I've seen lots of different, uh, I've worked in different types of education, comprehensive schools, primary.
[00:02:40] I've worked in a kindergarten, um, and send schools and, and you can see the change over the years, especially in. Staff motivation and their workload and everything. [00:02:55] So when I was in my previous job, I was, it was a send primary school. There wasn't a lot of give and take for some of the staff and, and I could say the difference in the way that the staff would respond to that.
[00:03:09] A high level of, of, um, sick leave sometimes and stress levels, things like that. Um, so when I joined the beacon of light school and I was in a completely different role, I was in the school [00:03:20] business manager role, uh, I went to the head teacher and said, do you have a staff wellbeing policy? And she says, well, yeah, yeah, we do.
[00:03:28] And I, she said, well, feel free, uh, revamp it and say, say whatever. What you can bring at the table. So I did that. Um, one of the things that I found was useful is I'm on a all year round contract now, so I get school holidays within. [00:03:45] School of term time, and the first time I, I take, I took a day off was after the Elton John concert, Sunland Stadium of Light.
[00:03:53] And it was just really nice to be able to have that day. And I realized that not many people get that opportunity in education because taking time out in. Term time is impossible. So having that one day gave me a little bit of a motivation [00:04:10] to see what we could offer as a school. So we introduced wellbeing days, so our staff get three wellbeing days, uh per year, one per term.
[00:04:21] And the difference that that alone. Brought really, really quickly was, was just phenomenal. It was, it was unbelievable. Um, and the appreciation that the staff gave back from that [00:04:35] was, was really rewarding. So that was the first thing I did when I first started three year ago at the Beacon. And I ran with it.
[00:04:44] I just sort of went, right, this is me, baby. I am all in. So yeah, that was, that was the start of it. And then
[00:04:52] I, um, won. Still Human Wellbeing Champion course. [00:05:00] And, and I went on, I went on that, it was at the Biscuit Factory in Newcastle, ran by the fantastic Julie, and it was just mind blowing. I, I loved it. I got so much from it and.
[00:05:15] I remember just taking it away and thinking, right, this is something that we're really going to develop hard in school. Um, and, and that's, and that's been [00:05:25] pretty much it for the last three years. And now I've got a team who helped develop the, the wellbeing within school. There's four of us now at what used to be just me and, and yeah.
[00:05:37] So that's pretty much my drive is just trying to alleviate the stress for. For the staff, basically.
[00:05:45] Tracy: Brilliant Louise. And, um, so good to hear that the, the Still [00:05:50] Human Wellbeing Champ course kind of give you that confidence and that knowledge that, you know, needed to help you to drive wellbeing for your school.
[00:06:00] That's really good. But, um, well, it all started with Elton John. We can say, can't we?
[00:06:05] Louise: It did. It did.
[00:06:07] Tracy: So you work in an alternative provision for the young people in Sunderland, um, and we know that that comes with its own [00:06:15] unique challenges, uh, for your staff. So what makes staff wellbeing such a big deal for your setting?
[00:06:22] Louise: With the kinds of students that we have, they are year nine, 10, and 11 with a high level of behavioral difficulties, uh, that can't make it in the mainstream schools and the mainstream schools commission places with us. The students already come to us with the challenges, [00:06:40] so. You're prepared for the behavior and we do see the like a decrease in the behavior over time of working with them and everything like that.
[00:06:50] But the staff take on so much. They absolutely work their socks off Ev every single member of the school. Just work so hard to provide the best that they can for these students to try and turn everything around for them so that they can [00:07:05] benefit from an education. And it goes across all levels. Goes from the top, from the, the principal, right the way through to the, um, the, the student support staff.
[00:07:16] And everyone has an impact on them, students, but the students have an impact on the staff. So it is really. Uh, important to try and give them as much support as they, as we [00:07:30] can. For them, it's trying to embed wellbeing into the daily routine, not being just a one off thing where it's an end of your night out or it's a
[00:07:41] Tracy: donuts and staff room.
[00:07:43] Louise: Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's, it's not, um, it's trying to make sure that we're giving the staff as well what they want or what they need. So staff voice is really important. And trying to listen to what [00:07:55] staff will actually benefit from for us within reason, obviously, and, and yet, so that is the challenge. Trying to support the staff as best as we can.
[00:08:05] Tracy: Absolutely. And I mean, with, with working in the alternative provision, that'll come with a lot of, um, emotional weight. I expect for your staff because they're dealing with behavior. As a [00:08:20] constant, it's something that is always gonna be at the front and foremost of their mind. And you know, when you're dealing, when you're managing that, you're on high alert, aren't you?
[00:08:30] And that's actually really exhausting for staff.
[00:08:33] Louise: Yeah. There's also a lot of safeguarding happens within school as well. And that alone is, you know, that's an, that takes a huge em emotional strain, especially when a lot of [00:08:45] students have outside issues. S you know, home life or personal problems and health, things like that.
[00:08:52] And they're com they're bringing it into school and through trust and, um, strong relationships that they have with the staff that do tend to open up to them and confide in them a lot. And that's our staff taken on that emotional sort of stress from the child as well. So [00:09:10] trying to give support back to them.
[00:09:14] Through what the wellbeing offer is, is really important.
[00:09:18] Tracy: Yeah, absolutely. And do you find your staff readily, uh, speak with each other about these pressures, you know, as a form of kind of releasing their burden of it? You know, 'cause having those strong connections are so important for our wellbeing.
[00:09:34] Having [00:09:35] that ability to talk to somebody else who understands. Pressures.
[00:09:40] Louise: Yes. We've got, um, a really strong safeguarding team, um, who talk to each other. Um, they take on the core of the safeguarding pressures. Um, they talk to each other. They have sort of an internal, um, supervision and we have an external supervision come, um, expert come in [00:10:00] to do some, you know, resilience and.
[00:10:03] Offloading to therefore, um, for their benefit really. So we have small team meetings regularly. We have staff briefing on a morning where every morning every member of staff comes into the staff room and discuss the previous day's you know, issues, problems, as positives as well. Do you [00:10:25] know, we, we talk about all of that in an open forum, so it's really.
[00:10:29] Useful to for, for the staff to feel like they can share with each other because. Anyone taking on all of that in one goal is, is is too much. So we do try to share it as a community within the school.
[00:10:44] Tracy: Yeah, that's so important, you know, that you're giving them lots of opportunities to connect with each other, [00:10:50] um, because that is one of the greatest sources of support, isn't it?
[00:10:53] Is, is each other, and great to hear that you're doing supervision for your safeguarding leads as well. I mean, that's, you know, we're hearing more and more leaders and. Staff in Send School are getting the opportunity for supervision. There's a lot of great research about around that to support wellbeing, uh, that ability to offload [00:11:15] and somebody just to listen, you know, without judgment, uh, without fear of any consequence of, of you seeing that you know, you if, if you're not coping or you're, you're feeling that it's a really tough time, you know, that whole supervision thing's a, a fantastic idea.
[00:11:31] So since you've been wellbeing champion then at say your school, what are the biggest barriers you've faced for improving staff [00:11:40] wellbeing and how have you managed to work around them?
[00:11:43] Louise: There hasn't been a, a huge amount of barrier, to be honest, because senior leadership team have. All the way governors before we were part of the Laid law schools Trust the trustees.
[00:11:54] And now that we're part of Laid Law, the laid law team, al also on board with our, our wellbeing package that we offer. And I think the only barriers that [00:12:05] we have had have possibly been with, um, certain members of staff, not. Spy in so to speak. And you know,
[00:12:14] I think the word wellbeing sometimes gets perceived as, oh, let's sit in a room, meditate when it's not.
[00:12:21] That's not the case. It's, it's all of the little things that we put in place to try and make your working day a little bit easier, a little bit [00:12:30] lighter, and just trying to inject and that little bit of fun as well. And. You know, I think sometimes some members of staff have previously not understood that, but the, we've just had a review of our staff, uh, well as a staff audit, so to speak, um, to see [00:12:55] how.
[00:12:55] staff are feeling. And one of the things that came out really high was staff wellbeing. How every member of staff almost I, I know, was really high. It was one of the highest things, was that staff had felt that the wellbeing in the school was really well run and, and. Really beneficial. So that sort of made me really happy, as I say, has been me, baby.
[00:13:17] It's not just my effort though, I've gotta say. It's, [00:13:20] it's a whole school team effort and, and everybody does get involved. So, so yeah, it's, it's, it's a good feeling to make. Make sure that those little obstacles that we do have are being over overcome.
[00:13:33] Tracy: Yeah. Louise, that's fantastic to hear that you've had that turnaround, you know, and that's absolutely down.
[00:13:39] I know you see it's a team effort and it always is a team effort, but you've absolutely been the driving [00:13:45] force, haven't you? You have, and you passion, you know, you've kind of got a fire burning in your belly for this.
[00:13:50] Louise: I am passionate about it and we'll say, all you've gotta do is come into the office and it's just wellbeing.
[00:13:55] Posters everywhere and how to look after your mental health and stuff like that. Of course. Um, over the last few years as well, I've undergone training as a mental health lead, um, a mental health counselor, and [00:14:10] also a occupational therapist. So I've been, I've been. Given the amazing opportunity to be able to develop myself in those roles.
[00:14:20] So I do have an open door policy for staff and it's really lovely and reassuring to see the amount of staff that do come and talk to me when they're having, if sometimes if there's. Just had a bad day. Sometimes if it's, they've got [00:14:35] stress, sometimes if it's, it's health problems, if it's personal problems, I have people coming in and having to, sometimes having to cry, sometimes just offload and sometimes having a massive rant and, and it's, it's lovely to, to be able to be that person, to be able to sort of.
[00:14:52] You know, be the shoulder sometimes.
[00:14:54] Tracy: With that in mind, how do you look after your own wellbeing then? Because you know that in [00:15:00] itself, being that shoulder, being, having that open door and working in such a, a heavy environment in which you do in, in this sense school, how do you actually protect your own wellbeing
[00:15:12] Louise: Personally?
[00:15:13] Um, I'm quite good at it. Uh, so I do my own sort of, um. Self meditation and the mindfulness. I do all of those little tricks [00:15:25] on the daily. And remember Julie, um, telling me how to do mindfulness in the shower by picking up the shampoo bottle and reading it, and it's, it sounds. Really crazy, but it's those little things that I've learned how to do and, and so yeah, there are times that I'll come home and I'll have a rant to me partner.
[00:15:47] Um, but he is used to that and he doesn't even [00:15:50] listen anyway, so it's great. So it's in one ear out the other. But yeah, I, I, I think through my own mindfulness, I do have really good support with the SLT. Um, so the principal, deputy principal and the director of Teaching and learning, they're always there.
[00:16:06] You know, they know if I've had a. Having a bad day or if it's been a stressful few days or a week or whatever, always there to sort of [00:16:15] support each other. So I think that's really important as well.
[00:16:17] Tracy: Brilliant. Yeah, I mean to to, you know, you said before that your SLT were really on board with the wellbeing journey and across the trust as well, you know, you central team at the trust.
[00:16:26] Well, since you've, um, converted, you know, they're really keen to raise the profile of staff wellbeing, which is. Always something that it's still human we see is really important. It's gotta be a top down thing, you know, for it [00:16:40] really to be embedded at every level. Um, but I just wanna go back a little bit to talking about those barriers.
[00:16:46] You said you had a couple, you know, one or two individuals that, that, that maybe thought wellbeing was a bit fluffy or the, you didn't actually have the buy-in and that's, that's actually turned around now and your last bit of data collection shows that it's actually being well received. Is there anything you think.
[00:17:03] That was a really [00:17:05] key turning point then for these particular people. Was it just your relentless drive and you won't, what, you know, you were never going to give up, or what do you think it was?
[00:17:15] Louise: You can't get away from it. Um, we, we do what we've, what we've, since we've built the team rather than it just being me, 'cause it was just me for a couple of years.
[00:17:27] And now the last within, well since September, [00:17:30] it's, it's been a team of four and the team are brilliant and it's, it. Eve is one of, uh, our administrators. Josh is a teacher, and um, Lindsay is a send student support. So it's from a different range of people within the school as well, and they have a great way of giving new ideas and coming up with different [00:17:55] things that other people who weren't quite buying in.
[00:17:58] May buy in with, if that makes any sense. So coming out with new, um, constantly developing and constantly changing our program. You know, there were, there were some elements that I think everyone bought in. Everyone buys in for the wellbeing days because why wouldn't you? It's three extra days off a year.
[00:18:19] But it was [00:18:20] the other little things that people didn't quite get on board with. And now that we've changed things and we're starting to have a half termly quiz. Pub quiz it's called, but it's not. It's in a classroom. It's at the end of the school day and the amount of staff that come and absolutely love that because it's just a bit of lighthearted fun at the end of the day and it's, it's nice to be able to switch off [00:18:45] for that half hour or 45 minutes or whatever, and we.
[00:18:48] We're constantly changing things. Sometimes there's things like we had the Joe wicks, um, movement hour walk, which was an hour af between three and four went. We all went for a walk down the riverside, which was really nice, and it's just having variation so that hopefully everyone or most people can [00:19:10] get on board with something because we know not everyone's going to.
[00:19:13] Come and do the mindful meditation. We understand that. And then not everybody wants to go on the social nights out. It's, it's about trying to get a good variation so that everyone can benefit in some way from something that we do offer.
[00:19:28] Tracy: And that's brilliant. You get that from having that wellbeing team, don't you?
[00:19:31] Like you say, everybody's coming in with new ideas and [00:19:35] having somebody in your team from different areas of the school or different roles in. Goal is so important so that everybody's kind of got that voice. Yeah. The how I say, uh, so good. It sounds like you're doing so many things, you know, like the, the supervision, the pub quiz, the regular meetings, these walk-ins, socials, it sounds like there's something there for everybody.
[00:19:58] So you've been on [00:20:00] this journey for. Three solid shares really haven't you, you said, and thinking about the impact, so if, if you were to look at the impact of what's been going on and what you know, the, the initiatives that you have put in place, how do you feel the team are now compared to when you first started?
[00:20:20] Can you see any visible differences?
[00:20:24] Louise: That's a difficult [00:20:25] one to answer to be honest.
[00:20:26] Tracy: Wellbeing's probably the hardest thing to measure.
[00:20:28] Louise: It is, and I think not only the fact that wellbeing has increased in school, the school has changed a little bit as well. We've got high level of. Students coming in. Uh, we've gone from a pan of 65 up to a pan of 80, so it's increasing pressure.
[00:20:46] So it's difficult to measure that because [00:20:50] things are getting tougher in school and, uh, we're, we're getting. The, the COVID slip of children coming through as well, where you, it's, it's noted that there are high levels of behavior with this cohort of children, so trying to balance that with, with the wellbeing initiatives, it's, it's quite difficult to see and definitely difficult to measure.
[00:21:12] I, I don't know if there's any difference from when I [00:21:15] started to now. I like to think that there is, but whether it's physically measurable is an, is another thing. Yeah.
[00:21:22] Tracy: But even if it's attitudinal, you know, like you say, you received your last per day data collection from the staff and they're all talking really positively about wellbeing now, you know.
[00:21:33] Kind of broken down those drains as we like to call them. You know, you've broken those down and you've got them on [00:21:40] board. I mean, that is impact, isn't it? Um, and I think if people are just more readily agreeable to, you know, coming to the pub quiz and accessing the supervision and coming on the walks, even that is, uh, a marked change, isn't it?
[00:21:55] I do believe you're trained in menopause awareness. And yeah. And, and menopause ambassador for, for your school. Do you wanna talk a little bit about [00:22:05] that?
[00:22:05] Louise: So, I've always, obviously I am a perimenopausal woman myself. So when I first started the school, we had a per, we, we had a menopause policy in, in place and it was due for review.
[00:22:18] So I had a look at that, changed a few things. Spoke with the principal who was bang on, on board, and, and we looked, we looked at that, um. Quite [00:22:30] intensely. So we had still human come in and do some menopause training with everyone, which I think was so interesting to see some of the, some of the lads sitting around squirming going, oh, what's this?
[00:22:42] The word menopause is enough to sort of make them squirm in the seat. But the, there was so many. The male members of staff took stuff away from it, which was really, really interesting, and I think that's what we needed to get across, [00:22:55] that menopause doesn't just affect women in the late forties onwards.
[00:22:59] It affects everyone. Affects, you know, it could be your mom, it could be your sister, it could be your wife, just. Be aware of it. Um, but the laid loss,
[00:23:10] the laid law trust have now got a wellbeing working group across the whole trust. So everyone, there's one member of staff from [00:23:20] every school is a wellbeing.
[00:23:22] Champion and um, they have termly meetings to discuss what can be put in place throughout the trust. So there's only been one meeting had, which was last term, the second meeting's gonna be happening this term to see. What, what changes can be made trust wide, which is fantastic because I've worked in previous [00:23:45] trust coach trust, which we would never have looked at that.
[00:23:48] Um, so this is, it's a real development and the team are absolutely fantastic and on board with that it, um, Sentel team, so. That's great.
[00:23:57] Tracy: That's brilliant to hear. That's so good. And it just shows that what you're doing, Louise, is having an impact outside of your own school, you know, spreading the word across the whole trust, so you know you're gonna have the whole trust are [00:24:10] gonna benefit from that.
[00:24:11] And having those termly meetings. You know, is it is just gonna keep it alive and keep the conversation going and making sure you can make those adjustments for the staff and you know, and just to support your staff. It's brilliant. So apart from the term meetings, what else is on the horizon for staff wellbeing?
[00:24:28] Have you got anything in the pipeline?
[00:24:31] Louise: We have not, not much anyway. [00:24:35] Um, we have our usual fortnightly pool and darts club. So there's a snow hall in Sunland and, um, a small group of people meet up. It's, you know, it's, it's a mix and it's really nice. So that happens every, um, two weeks. We've got the pub quiz, which is happening the week before Easter.
[00:24:56] Easter. We've got a York Day trip booked during the [00:25:00] halftime holidays, which is a few members of staff going on, on a trip down to York. And the end of your spectacular appreciation. Event that happens.
[00:25:11] Tracy: Tell us about that.
[00:25:13] Louise: We have our school leavers event at the stadium of light, and last year was the first year that we'd had it at the stadium and following the year 11 leavers event, which was really great, we [00:25:25] kept the stadium on for a couple of hours to do a staff appreciation awards.
[00:25:29] So I put out a. Survey to everyone and said, right, you need to give me positive comments about every member of staff. So we did that and then, um, I created a, a slideshow and put all of the positive comments, open some photos of the member of staff. Uh, [00:25:50] everyone got a little gift bag. With just bits of stuffing, you know, little appreciation things.
[00:25:56] And then we all had a silent disco at the end and had a real good laugh and, and it was really nice to just bond together for that little bit. But it's nice to, it's nice for the members of staff to hear what other people say about them. So it's not, [00:26:15] it's not senior leadership saying that it's not me going, oh yeah, you're great.
[00:26:19] It's coming from all of the team. So I think last year everyone had at least. Eight quotes about them, about something personal, about themself, which was, it's just inspiring. I print them all out so they've got the little certificates and everything and the, and yeah, just a little bit of motivation and a little bit of appreciate [00:26:40] appreciation.
[00:26:40] Tracy: I love that idea. You know, it's so. So impactful, isn't it?
[00:26:46] Louise: And, and it's so simple.
[00:26:47] Tracy: It's so simple, and it's free.
[00:26:49] Louise: Absolutely it is. We're having an appreciation wall now in our staff room, which we didn't have before. Um, and one of the members of the team created a, um, appreciation wall with, um, post-it notes.
[00:27:02] So you just write on something positive about [00:27:05] that person and stick it on the person's name. So. Certain members of staff got loads 'cause that's the way it is. But everyone gets a little post-it note. It was just something positive saying, I dunno, like you made a great slice of toast today. You know, it's just little things and, and it's all, well, we've got rules.
[00:27:22] It's gotta be kind, it's gotta be, uh, appropriate and it's gotta be. Full of love and humor. So [00:27:30]
[00:27:30] Tracy: wonderful. And you know, the research says that appreciation from our colleagues is just as impactful as appreciation from our leaders. You know, so just, it just brings the team together, doesn't it? Strengthening those relationships.
[00:27:44] So, Louise, if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing to improve staff wellbeing in an instant. What would it be?
[00:27:52] Louise: More funding. [00:27:55]
[00:27:56] Tracy: Isn't that the answer to all questions?
[00:27:58] Louise: More money? No, no, because I, I've said a lot of the things that we do don't really cost anything. It's, it's, it's the little bit I think it would be.
[00:28:08] I would love it to be wider spread. I know that we do it hard in our school, but that's because we, we're a small school. There's only 27 members of staff. [00:28:20] Um, but I would like to see rolled out in, uh, bigger schools because I, I've got friends in education who work in different comprehensive schools or primary schools who are bigger and, and they don't seem to get.
[00:28:33] The focus on wellbeing. And I would just love to be able to just, as I say, wave a magic wand and and spread the love.
[00:28:42] Tracy: Well, we're getting there. That's the whole point [00:28:45] is still human. We're trying to spread that word. You know, we're getting there. And just one final question, Louise, in the spirit of compassion, if you were to offer our listeners a suggestion of one kind thing they could do for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:29:02] Louise: I would say take 10 minutes for yourself. Just take 10 minutes, no phones, no [00:29:10] tv, just 10 minutes to just sit and reflect. Reflect on your day, reflect on the positive and things that were in your life, and be grateful a bit, gratitude, and just, yeah, think of all the good things because even when you've had a bad day, it's a bad day, not a bad life.
[00:29:29] Think of all the good things that you've got. Surrounding you at work, at home, [00:29:35] in your, you know, in your family. Just think of that,
[00:29:38] Tracy: Louise, there isn't a more perfect way to end our podcast with a little bit of gratitude and time for yourself. What a lovely way to end. I've really enjoyed listening to your story, hearing about the journey of staff wellbeing at the beacon of Light School in Sunderland.
[00:29:56] You are an inspiration. You are, you know, are. Champion of all [00:30:00] wellbeing champions. Louise, it's an absolute pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.
[00:30:06] Louise: Oh, it's my, the pleasure was mine. Tracy always.