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On this episode of The Lead On Podcast, Jeff Iorg, president of the SBC Executive Committee, discusses how organizational culture can support or hinder God-directed vision. He shares practical ways leaders can address cultural barriers and help their organizations faithfully pursue the mission and vision God has given them.
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Welcome to the Lead On Podcast. This is Jeff Iorg, the president of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, talking with you once again about practical issues related to ministry leadership. That's what we do on this podcast. It's not so much a preaching podcast or a teaching podcast in that sense of Bible instruction as it is a discussion about the practical side of leading ministry organizations and churches. Last week on the podcast, I talked about casting vision.
Jeff Iorg:Today, I wanna continue that theme and talk about not only casting vision, but the biblical foundation for vision and why it's important in our lives. And then shift gears a bit and talk about why vision is so difficult when it encounters culture that is contrary to the vision. Now, when I say culture in just a moment, I'm not meaning the world we live in, the evil systems around us. I'm talking about the culture of your church, all right, or the culture of your ministry organization. So let's start out by talking about why vision really matters and what we can learn about it from a biblical perspective, and then shift gears to talking about why it's so difficult to cast vision and to engender the fulfillment of vision when culture seems often to oppose that happening.
Jeff Iorg:You know, in the Bible, the most famous verse about vision is Proverbs 2nine 18, depending on your translation, but it says something like this, where there is no vision, the people perish. I'd like another translation that says, where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained, or they're not held back, or they're not prohibited from doing things that damage themselves and lead to that perishing word. Vision provides limits. Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained. Where there is vision, the people are restrained.
Jeff Iorg:Now we talked last week on the podcast about mission being that reason we exist and vision being the expression of what that mission looks like in a context or community. So I moved to the Pacific Northwest many years ago to plant a new church driven by mission, the great commission in the spirit of the great commandment. And I moved to the Northwest with a reputation for being an evangelistic pastor. I had reached people and baptized them in sufficient numbers to establish my credibility as an evangelistic pastor. When I arrived in the Northwest, some other pastors in our area met me and were welcomed to me and were enthusiastic about my arrival.
Jeff Iorg:They invited me to lunch and they said, we've got an idea that we want to discuss with you. We want to do a major evangelistic outreach in our community. I said, man, that sounds good to me. What are you planning? They said, we're going to get a big tent and we're gonna bring in a Southern gospel quartet that we really like.
Jeff Iorg:And we've got a pastor from a southern state that we've really enjoyed over the years and we're going to bring that all together and have a good old fashioned revival in the tent with great singing and great preaching. We're even gonna have some hay bales around if people wanna sit on them, that kind of thing. And I sat there thinking, I'm sitting in a suburb of Portland, Oregon. I'm in one of the more secular cities. I'm in a city that's a long way from the South.
Jeff Iorg:I'm not sure people here have ever seen a hay bale, and I've already been teased a little bit in the community about my southern accent. And so I tried to do it as nicely as I could, but I said to those other three pastors, guys, I really appreciate what you're trying to do,
Jeff Iorg:but we're not going to help you with that. Our church plant isn't going to participate. And
Jeff Iorg:they were both surprised and, a little bit offended. I tried to explain. Listen, guys, I came here with a vision for reaching Northwesterners with the gospel, using approaches and language and methods that they will understand and will interface with them at their points of need. I simply don't see a southern tent revival as accomplishing that goal. That's not the vision that we have because our vision has limits on it.
Jeff Iorg:It tells us what we can do,
Jeff Iorg:but it also tells us what we can't do.
Jeff Iorg:Now, I'm not sure whatever happened with that event, if it occurred or not. It didn't make enough of an impact for me to ever notice if it did, but I left that luncheon that day a little bit sad, quite frankly, because I don't like disappointing people, and I certainly don't like telling other pastors that I don't want to embrace their idea, and I certainly don't want to do anything that discourages anyone about evangelism. Your brothers and sisters, if you have a clearly articulated mission and that mission then expresses itself in a vision for what that mission will look like if fulfilled in community, then you need to only do things that will contribute to the fulfillment of that vision, not just doing what's comfortable from your past or not just doing what you feel good about because of past experiences, but doing what is strategically, possibly effective at reaching and fulfilling the vision that you have in your particular context. So vision provides limits. A second thing that vision does is it it keeps people moving forward.
Jeff Iorg:Philippians three twelve to 14 is a great passage on this. Go back and take a look at it. Paul said, this one thing I do. He said, pressing on, pressing on. That's what he did.
Jeff Iorg:He moved forward because he saw the high calling of God in Christ Jesus as he describes it, and he wanted to press on toward that. Vision keeps us moving forward. When I was a father of younger children and we would be on vacation together, the children would often ask me this question, daddy, what's next? And if I had an answer like, well, the next thing we're going to do is stop up here for ice cream or if the next thing we're to do is we're going to stop and see the world's largest, waterfall or the next thing we're going to do is we're going to stop and see, this friend of mine that I met back in school. We want to spend a few minutes with their family.
Jeff Iorg:As long as there was a what's next, my children seemed to stay focused. But if I said, I don't really know where we're going. I don't really have a plan. Chaos would usually break out in our backseat. You know, that's the way churches and ministry organizations are as well.
Jeff Iorg:When the people ask the leader, what's next? And the leader says, I don't know. Chaos is likely to break out because everyone suddenly starts wanting to go their own way. But when you have vision, you say this is what we're trying to become. This is what we envision being when our mission is fulfilled.
Jeff Iorg:And someone says, what's next? Well, then you say, well, what's next is this next step we need to take to get there. That's what's next. And vision makes sure there's always an answer to the question, what's next? And that keeps people focused and moving forward.
Jeff Iorg:Another thing vision does for us from, what we learn in the Bible is that vision keeps problems in perspective. Now, a larger a larger section of scripture is Acts chapter three through chapter eight. This is the story of the progression of the church and of the gospel after Pentecost and leading up to, the breakthroughs at Antioch. You know, there's always problems, and this section of acts shows how the church overcame problem after problem after problem as it kept the vision of God and the expansion of the kingdom ever before them. Vision keeps problems in perspective.
Jeff Iorg:Do you know there has never been a moment in a ministry in a ministry organization that there haven't been problems? There are always problems. There are people problems. There are money problems. There are space problems.
Jeff Iorg:There are program problems. There's leadership problems. There are always problems. But vision keeps those problems in perspective. Now, see if you can do this.
Jeff Iorg:If you're driving, please don't, but the rest of you, try this. Hold out your thumb at arm's length and stare intently at your thumbnail. Move that around and you'll be amazed at what you can block out. Close one eye. Just focus in on that thumbnail, and you can use your thumb to block out lots of things out on the horizon.
Jeff Iorg:But now open both eyes and look just over the top of your thumb. Your thumb will probably turn into a little blur, or maybe there'll even be two of
Jeff Iorg:them there. But what do
Jeff Iorg:you see? You don't see the problem of the thumb anymore. You see everything else so much more clearly. You know, leaders have to focus either on the vision that they're trying to accomplish or the problems that are staring them in the face. Good leaders learn how to glance at problems and stay fixated on the vision.
Jeff Iorg:Good leaders keep the horizon in view, and yes, acknowledge there are things right before them that have to be dealt with, but those things never become the ultimate focus or objective. So vision keeps problems in perspective. It helps you to acknowledge there's some problems in the foreground, but they don't eclipse or cloud out or block out the vision I have for the grander work that we're trying to do together. Another thing that vision does is vision produces unity. Now there's a great example of this in Joshua chapter one verses 10 and verses sixteen and seventeen, where Joshua describes the people coming together in remarkable unity because of the vision they had of conquering the land that Joshua was going to lead them to take.
Jeff Iorg:What is it that produces unity? Nothing produces unity like vision, where people come together and say, this is our mission and this is the vision we have for accomplishing it, and we're going to do this together and we're going to stand together no matter what because this is what we see coming and this is what we want to accomplish. You know, when I planted the church in Oregon, I think the first 13 families or households that joined our church came from 11 different church backgrounds, including no church. I think I've got those numbers right still after all these years. After we'd been going for about a year, year and a half, one day I just happened to, in the parking lot of a Baptist meeting, connect with the then state executive director of the Northwest Baptist Convention, his name was Cecil Sims.
Jeff Iorg:And Cecil said, well, you cost me a dollar. And I said, I did? He said, well, you did. He said, I bet And he named a friend of his, he said, I bet him a dollar that you couldn't hold that new church together for a first year. And I said, really?
Jeff Iorg:Now I knew he was joking with me and just trying to make a point. So I said, really? I'm sorry it cost you a dollar. What did I do that cost you that buck? And he said, well, then he got really serious.
Jeff Iorg:He said, well, Jeff, when you started, you attracted so many people from so many different backgrounds, including so many that weren't even Christians that I wondered, how could you hold that together so clearly and grow to the point you have just in the short time you've been working here? And I said, well, Cecil, that is a great question. And the only thing I can tell you is that our mission is clear and I've tried to cast a vision that's compelling and people have just simply bought into that. And what holds us together is the vision. That is what holds us together.
Jeff Iorg:We have a clear mission from God and a vision to fulfill it. And we come together in a church or an organization and we say, we're gonna band together to get this done because we really see this is what we can become as God works through us to fulfill this mission in this place. God produces unity. Then the last thing is that vision implies a commitment to change, and I'm gonna talk more about that now in the rest of the podcast. But vision says we're going somewhere, which means we're gonna leave somewhere to get somewhere else.
Jeff Iorg:Vision implies a commitment to change. You can also see that in Philippians three twelve in those same words I've already quoted earlier in the podcast. You know, some people say the seven last words of a dying Christian are we've never done it this way before, But the nine last words of a dying pastor are, we did it this way in my last church. It's so important to not be too enamored with what we've done, with how well it's worked, and with how tightly we want to cling to it. Instead, vision implies a commitment to change.
Jeff Iorg:It says, we see something that doesn't yet exist and we wanna get there and whatever we have to change along the way, we're willing to do so we can achieve that which God has laid before us. Well, that's five reasons why vision is important coming out of some different Bible verses and different Bible passages. Now, we've talked so far on last week and this week about what vision is, what it looks like when you cast it, some biblical emphases about why it's important, and then we run headlong into the reality. People resist change that vision mandates and have a difficult time really committing themselves to living out what's been articulated. Why is that?
Jeff Iorg:Well, several people have said this different ways. I know John Maxwell has been credited with it, and I'll credit him with it on the called on the podcast today. He said, Culture trumps vision every time. Culture eats vision for lunch. Man, that is so true.
Jeff Iorg:Culture can be so deeply ingrained, culture meaning the relational connections we have, the habitual practices we've adopted, the the, mores, if you will, that define organizational life, culture. Culture can be so entrenched that no matter how clearly you articulate the mission and how compelling you communicate the vision, it runs into a brick wall of a culture resistant to change and resistant to fulfilling the mission and vision that you've adopted. So is there a way to shift culture so that it embraces vision
Jeff Iorg:more appropriately? I think there is.
Jeff Iorg:There's a book that came out a few years ago about the Culture Code, it's called. It's not a Christian book, but its concepts outline what it takes to shift culture to embrace vision. I've thought a lot about the steps that are outlined in that book and how they might be adapted, if you will, to ministry organization, and so I want to do that today on the podcast. Four different approaches or strategies, if you will, four things to do to help culture shift so that it becomes more embracing of vision. First, articulate the aspiration.
Jeff Iorg:Articulate what you dream of becoming, what you hope to achieve, what you think can happen. Articulate the aspiration. That's one way of putting it. I'd say it this way, communicate the vision. Articulate, communicate the vision.
Jeff Iorg:And not just one time, but put it out there time after time after time after time in different ways with different methods, with different approaches, but supersaturate your ministry environment with the vision. Mission, yes. Vision, communicate it. Articulate the aspiration. This is who we are and this is what we want to become.
Jeff Iorg:And every opportunity you have to underscore, and this is an example of how we've lived out who we are and how we're becoming what we dream of being. Every time you have a way to connect the progress that you're making, even though it may be very small some days, to the larger mission and vision that you're trying
Jeff Iorg:to inculcate, do it.
Jeff Iorg:Articulate the aspiration, communicate the mission and vision, and do it over and over and over and over again in different ways and in different contexts, in different settings, tying everything you can that contributes to that being fulfilled to that presentation. Second, select or in some cases develop leaders who model the target culture, who model the culture you're trying to create. Now, this is a bit of a slow play. You are not likely to be able to suddenly change all your leaders, but when you have the opportunity, make sure that you change the ones that you do in ways that produce the kind of cultural shift you're looking for. And then don't be surprised if their example of modeling what it means to live out a particular culture isn't copied by some other leaders who just needed a model or a motivator for change.
Jeff Iorg:In other words, you don't have to replace every leader to have a leadership change. Now, you may have to replace some, and when you do that, you must be very careful to select people who model the culture that you want so that then the vision can be embraced in ways that are productive and transformational. So articulate the art aspiration, communicate this is our mission and vision, and communicate it over and over and over again. And then when you have opportunity, select or develop leaders who model the culture that will embrace the kind of vision that you have and will move your organization toward it. And then don't feel like you have to necessarily replace every leader, but allow that effect of picking people who fit a different culture to have a influencing effect and maybe see some leaders change their perspective and the culture starts shifting because of that.
Jeff Iorg:Now, here's the third thing, and that is use organizational conversations about culture to facilitate a change. Now this is risky for some, hard to do. You say,
Jeff Iorg:oh, I don't know if
Jeff Iorg:I wanna talk about the culture of our church or the culture of our organization because if I do, it's probably gonna be some conflict in there. There's gonna be some difference of opinion. There's gonna be some debate. We're not all gonna agree. Yes.
Jeff Iorg:Yes. Yes. And yes. But the only way productive change happens among people in relationship to culture is if you address the issues, highlight the areas of needed change, and risk the conflict that's part of it. Give you an example of something I lived through at the seminary, which unfortunately is not one of my brighter leadership moments.
Jeff Iorg:We went through a phase of planning at the seminary and we're working on some of these issues. We were restating our mission and articulating our vision and doing that in a fresh way. And we were definitely, focused on making sure that our leadership was where it needed to be and the right people were in the right room, the in right places on the bus to make the right decisions about all of this. You get the idea. And then we got down to this part.
Jeff Iorg:Well, what are the cultural barriers that are keeping us from fulfilling our mission and our vision more effectively? And through surveying and focus grouping, I mean, was a major project we were working on that we were asking this question only as a part of the larger project, this answer came back. We have too many silos and we do not have enough collaboration. Man, that steamed me. I mean, when I read that, I thought that is not true.
Jeff Iorg:That is a few disgruntled employees or a few people who were upset that day about some something who are skewing the results of what is not true. And in the planning group that was working on this, I made my case pretty strongly. I said, I see the data that we don't have enough collaboration, too many silos. I see the data and I don't believe it. I work here every day.
Jeff Iorg:I've been working here every day for fifteen years. I don't see it. I think this is a few disgruntled people. I think this is a few people that had a bad day. I just don't agree this.
Jeff Iorg:And one of the leaders on the task force that was working with me very quietly but very directly said, mister president, you don't see this because you're the president and everyone collaborates with you.
Jeff Iorg:Man, that was hard to hear. But I took
Jeff Iorg:a step back and thought, well, maybe they're right. So we talked about them. Ultimately, we actually came out with a document that said one of the main areas that we needed to work on was enhancing collaboration. I still didn't believe it until we raised the issue as one of the findings and asked people to interface about that idea and how we could improve it. And the ideas were many, frequently shared, and frankly, pretty easy to implement.
Jeff Iorg:We did have a problem. Too many silos. I did overestimate the collaboration that was going on. We worked on fixing it. We shifted the culture.
Jeff Iorg:We shifted the culture of relationships and processes, procedures, even some rules, to make our organization more collaborative. But we were only able to do that when we had some organizational conversations about culture and what was keeping us from being able to fulfill our mission and vision because of who we are and how we worked and what was built into our systems. And quite honestly, if it had been left up to me, we would not have addressed that issue because I didn't see it. And frankly, having to admit it was a little bit of an indictment of my leadership and hard to hear, but I'm so glad that that guy had the courage to say what he said to me that day in the meeting, reinforcing desired changes through organizational changes. In other words, in this case example that I've just given you, we wanted to shift the culture of collaboration and by doing that, enhance the fulfillment of our mission and vision to become who we dreamed of being.
Jeff Iorg:And so we had to say, this is a change we want to make. How do we need to change the organization's design or the organization's function to make that happen? And that involves changing some workspace. It involves changing some scheduling and involve changing some training and involve changing some meeting times. It involved changing some of the ways that we did our work and we reinforced the change we wanted to make by designing change into the organization.
Jeff Iorg:Meaning we changed training practices and structures and systems and processes, even schedules, so that we could enhance more working together instead of working in these silos. Well, last two weeks of the podcast, we've talked about vision
Jeff Iorg:casting, what it is,
Jeff Iorg:how to do it, and then today, some biblical perspective on why it matters, and then solving that problem of culture eating vision for lunch. How do you shift culture to be more supportive of fulfilling vision? Clearly articulate the aspiration, communicate the vision over and over and over and over. Then select or develop leaders who align with the vision and allow their influence to change other leaders to start shifting culture in the right direction. And then third, use organizational conversations about culture to make cultural change.
Jeff Iorg:Those are hard because they reveal things about organizations that may be unseemly or difficult, or maybe things we don't even see, but they unearth perhaps some conflict or some unmet expectations that need to be resolved. And then finally, reinforce cultural changes by actually making organizational design changes so that you actually change things to reinforce the new culture that you're trying to create. Well, we've spent two weeks on vision casting. It's an important part of your role as a leader. Identify your mission, cast vision of what it will look like when that mission is fulfilled.
Jeff Iorg:Help people understand what good vision really is. See the biblical components of it and how it strengthens our work. And then take steps to shape your culture of your church organization to be more embracing of and supporting of pursuing the vision you have before you. This is a part of our work, Casting Vision. Put it into practice as you lead on.