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Sean Sidders, Founder of Mallard Agency, sits down with other Founders & CEOs from across Dallas-Fort Worth to discuss the ups and downs of business leadership. These honest, authentic, and practical discussions will leave you with tangible insights that will leave you feeling inspired, equipped, and encouraged.
CL Founders In Flight_Dave Korinek.txt
English (US)
00:00:00.040 — 00:00:40.320
Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Founders in Flight. Today I have Dave Cornick. He is a friend just five minutes from our studio down the street. But he started an agency that I really respect and admire called Magnetic Creative. 20 years ago. He is just an amazing thought leader, just an amazing strategist and just an incredible entrepreneurial story.
For those creatives out there who are really considering taking the leap. We talked about everything from really just strategy that we're agency model is really going long term, and some advice for people who may be early on in their journey. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
00:00:53.080 — 00:19:07.210
Dave, so excited to have you in the studio today. And just I mean, it's been a minute since we've had a chance to catch up And you're always somebody that I enjoy chatting with and you have an amazing story. So excited to dive into it. And thanks for taking the time, dude. Happy to be here. I love that you're doing this.
And you know, again, we've always had a good connection from the day we met. Uh, so I love that you're kind of getting together with founders and just talking founder stories 100%. Um. And you are the perfect fit. Uh, whenever you had reached out and you and I connected, it was like, this might be a really good opportunity for us to chat it up.
I was like, this is I'm so excited that we're actually going to get this on camera because, you know, I think we've had this discussion a couple of times, but we'll probably learn even new things about each other today. Exactly. Can you tell us a little bit about your, um, your origin story? Kind of, um, uh, give us the background of who is Dave?
Yeah. What is Dave passionate about? What have you built and what are you in the process of now? Sure. Well, I think, you know, at the heart of everything, I'm a maker and a creator. That's where my my ethos comes from. I'm. I started I went to design school, so that's where I began. And then I worked for agencies and I worked in corporate, and I did all that stuff.
And at some point, um, I got this sort of lightning bolt from God that said, hey, you know, I think you should start your own business. And I was like, what? Like, uh, I have just had my fourth kid. We just bought a new house. Like, I don't think this is the right time. And of course, you know, God's timing is never like our timing.
And I said, okay, well, I went back and talked to my wife, and she says she goes, well, if God told you to do something, you probably should do it. And I was like, that's not what I was expecting you to say. But okay, so, so mag was born. I left that company and started my own gig, and before I knew it, I was pretty bustling with work from clients.
Um. And, uh, it was exciting. I, you know, it's it was wild to get into. I mean, I'd focus really more on the creative side first. So we were delivering just, you know, really great design and creative for for businesses. And then shortly after doing that for, you know, a few years, I started adding people and I kept I wanted to keep it.
I'll put it this way. I worked for so many agencies in the past. I was like, I don't want to build the same agency I worked for, because reality is a lot of people hated it. You know, and I was like, how do I keep people to want to be in the business? And so I said, Mag's going to be like something that, hey, we care about our people.
We're going to keep them accountable, but they're also going to be in charge of themselves like they've got to do their job. But so there's accountability but a lot of flexibility. Yeah, I want people to feel like, you know, I always felt people were the greatest asset in any agency. And so I said, let's make the people the most important thing.
We'll always do great work and we'll give them autonomy to make that happen. And if you don't do your job well, that's on you, right? And we want to guide and direct people. So that was kind of the I started with contracting everybody. Right. So I was we're meeting at coffee shops. You know, I was like, you know, we were in Temecula at the time in California, and we were meeting up with coffee shops and production meetings, and everybody go off and do their thing and come back.
And then at some point we got to be, you know, a couple of years in, we were like ten, 12 people and it was getting a little harder. And you know, better when you're together to work on stuff. So we got an office down there for the first time. I was like, oh, I was really I didn't want to do this. I didn't want overhead.
I didn't want employees. HR. All these things are because all the companies I'd worked for just seemed like headaches. And it is. It is headaches. And it's definitely I've learned that too. But but it is the point where you reach a certain mass of people that you kind of need to do it. And and so we did we found that.
And so it was founded in 2006. So we're coming up. This is our 20 year anniversary. I cannot believe that. It's so awesome. Amazing. Really hard to be an agency for 20 years, 100% you. I look back on the days of the beginning and what we are now and it's like, whoa, we've changed so much. Like every, you know, you just keep moving and shaking.
Industries change, technology changes like everything's moving. So we've kind of just continued to find our groove in what we do best. And then kind of a sort of adapt to what being what's being added, whether it's technology or or themes or AI or whatever it may be into the world. But but yeah, so when we started out, it was mostly creative and then I just a couple, I don't know, I want to say it was about five years in.
We had done a lot of great projects and they were like, we would do great work. And then it didn't maybe perform like with that. We thought it would, and then I would just go back to the briefs and go like, what was the brief? Like, why did they why did this not work so well? And I realized that the briefs were bad and that the strategy was bad and they didn't really know.
And I was like, oh my gosh, they're missing this entire like it's like garbage in, garbage out. And I'm like, I hate like as a creative. It's like, I want to know all the information so I can do really great work and it works. So so we started doing a lot of strategy. So we started building in this intelligence layer into the business.
So I said, look cool. We're going to figure all this out. We're going to tell them we're going to be the experts at this. And we wanted to be kind of like that, you know, McKinsey or that Accenture of like the agency world in our world to tell them what they needed to do and help them guide them along and then build out all the creative assets.
And then we were doing that for a while and I realized, oh my gosh, social media opened up. So did the world of like basically content creation. And we said, let's build in a studio. So we started out in video and we started out in photography and doing all the stuff, and that was sort of phase three. And then the last one was really growth marketing.
So we realized after all the stuff is going, if they don't run the right media, run the right ads, or put the things in the right place, do the right relationships or brand co-ops, it's not going to go anywhere, right? So we wanted to help control the process, and that's how we built our entire ecosystem of brand intelligence meets creative and meets growth marketing, kind of all in one.
So that's where we are 20 years later. But it just was learning along the way and seeing the gaps and wanting to do great work for people. And I'm a problem solver. I've always been that. So I want people when they work with us or we saw I want it to work. I mean, you pay me. My job is to fix something and make it work.
So. So when things weren't working, it was frustrating. And I think out of those frustrations just became, you know, the things that we were missing, we fixed and we added. And it's been really cool to watch that change over the years. That's so cool. Well, I even since I, I think you and I first connected maybe I want to say about two years ago this probably feels about right.
Yeah. And I personally, I think learned a lot about strategy for small to midsize businesses from you. You did? You did some kind of independent consulting work for Mallard, which was like, honestly, really kind of, you know, you operate in a silo and you're kind of blinded by your, you know, your own repetition.
And I thought that that exercise was not just clarifying for me in my business, but also was clarifying for how we go about that with our clients, too. So I really see you as a true leader in the area of strategy and taking complex ideas and making them simple. Finding your true north. Is that what you guys call it?
Well, that's. Yeah, that's our the why when we for companies you got to find your true north then your longitude and latitude your how and your what. You know. So. Yeah. Totally. Well, your frameworks are really, really helpful. Uh, practically speaking, what's your role in the, uh, in the business today?
And how has that shifted over time? Yeah, definitely has shifted. I mean, as a founder sitting here in the founder chair. Right. It's such a weird thing. I mean, listen, I started the business because I love what I do. You know, I didn't start out and you're like, oh, I'm going to be a CEO and run a company. And so, you know, we got to this point where we were getting so big.
I mean, our we're at 60, 65 people. And, you know, I was not doing what I liked anymore. I really wasn't I was doing new business. I mean, I know you loved new business. I was just like, I love talking to people about what we do. Yeah. And if that turns into business, great. You know, I like to solve problems, but I was missing.
I was getting disconnected from the stuff that I loved. So we met as a sort of leadership team. You know, we have a couple of other partners I brought in, uh, along the way. And I said, we just said, hey, look, how do we solve this? We need good operations. We need to be profitable. We need to do all this stuff.
That's not what I love to do. And so we ended up moving one of our, our guys, one of my business partners in South Africa, into the CEO role. And I kind of slid into this role that was kind of autonomous, which was kind of interesting, you know, as the founder doing what I really love to do, but helping kind of going out and serving and help brands individually.
So I think there's this, this gap. Also, the reason we did this was saw this gap between big companies and the smaller medium sized companies. right? And a lot of times, like it's hard for them to hire an agent or they're in between like they're not ready to go. Big agency. What I mean by a big agency is spending upwards of 75,000 more a month, right?
Like it can get costly. And that's, you know, when you get into a company like M&G and as big as we've become, you have to have a certain budget, like a threshold to get into a company like that. But there's people that need help to get there. And so I found this spot where I was like, hey, look, I can help people, you know, get through that strategic phase and into positioning themselves and even get the creative visualization going.
And then they're ready to go into an agency and spend that ongoing, you know, because that is the starting point ultimately. Right. Again, the strategy and the creative and all, that's great. But then what do you do with it? And I think that's really what I saw myself was like, I could go do this and help people individually.
And I started working with a bunch of different companies. And, and so it was a little bit of a new journey for me. But at the same time, you know, as a founder, I'm looking at the value of the business. And I had realized I'd got to a spot where I'd built that around me, at the company that I didn't need to do at all for the company.
Right. So it's great. I've taught and mentored a bunch of people, you know, from creative all the way through strategy and to how we handle customers. And it's like, I have to let that kind of go a bit, which is a weird position to be in. Um, and, you know, because eventually it would be a nice point to exit as a founder, you know, and say, hey, I did that, and it was great.
Um, but it was cool. It was really fulfilling to kind of go back into a growth sort of position again where I'm like, hey, I want to go back to what I love to do. And I didn't know that at the time. You know, we had first talk. I think I was right in the beginning phases of that. I was like, let me help you with this because I just want to do more.
What I used to do a lot more. And I started doing it and making and creating. And before I knew it, I was just like I was having fun again, you know? And I think that's what sometimes you get into these roles as a founder, you know, where you start to bring people and it's like, ah, like, where do I fit in? Or what am I really good at?
And I would encourage people is always be what you're good. You always do what you're good at. Because when you start to try to fill roles that you're like, oh, that's, that's not why I was put on this earth, You know, I was here to do this. Um, if you want to do it, that's great. But if you're not loving it, you got to, like, stay true to yourself.
Because in any part of your whether you're a designer or a creator or a or whatever, you'd be running a construction company. It doesn't matter if you don't love doing what you're doing, it's just going to show. And so I really felt like that was what I was on a journey of self-discovery again, on back was my role now.
And and I don't know, you get into this material like a little bit of like, oh my gosh. Like, it's been like two years since I've been really in the weeds with this. I still got it. Can I still do it? And, uh, no, I and I and I, it was fun. I just really tapped back and was like riding the bike, getting back into that role instead of just being like on the outside, consulting with the team and not doing the work.
I was actually getting in to the work and consulting the clients directly, which is what I really like to do 100%. And you're so good at it. Um, so you're kind of stepping into a new chapter a little bit, or you have over the last couple of years, can you kind of like, almost like backtrack. And if you had to like, bucket different chapters of your journey like that you think may be valuable for a founder to hear, you know, what was the the first chapter and then what happened for you to switch to chapter two and what happened for you to switch to chapter three, and maybe you're on chapter four or chapter seven right now, I'm not sure, but but what are what are those big, you know, bits of your journey that you look back and kind of observe?
Good question. Yeah. I mean, I kind of I kind of covered a little bit earlier how we sort of evolved the business. Those were definitely chapters where like we started out like, hey, let's just create. That's what I do. We're design team create. You know, again, I would say we're a boutique creative studio doing great work, but just so happened that we were launching Vizio TVs into the market with our first big client was like, so it wasn't like the smallest shop.
We were doing great work and that company went ballistic and we were working our tails off. I think, as I think we had just learned the chapter, chapter one, was that just creating right and doing work for clients and then it shifted. Chapter two was creating and not getting the results, but wanting to get results.
So it was really more like the refinement of the creative process into how do we show the intelligence body. Because I'm really I think it's really important that creators create with intent. You know, and again, you're purpose driven all the time. Well, that's what it means is like, hey, how do we do this with purpose so that it actually yields a result?
And and that was something I was like, you know, great. We were getting paid to do a service, but I'm like, I want to be more than just a service company. I want to go deeper. And so that was phase two. Phase three was, as you know, as some of these things opened up, like any business, you're like, oh, new tech or new things.
The industry is changing. Like when, uh, when like video and it became such a like streaming or capabilities became anybody could shoot with cameras versus hiring big studios to do commercials and brand work or brand videos. That was a big one. I was like, wow, that was a big like, we're opening a production studio inside.
So that was like phase three. Like you're literally like creating other areas in your business to, to create great revenue. So that was again looking for ways to grow the business, to also just continue to adapt to what was happening around us. I think that was phase three. And then then phase four was again kind of bringing in, I think the growth marketing side.
So that's like the early journeys of the formation of what we've been doing now for a long time. So at the end of that, I would say that's like, okay, we established the businesses there. We've got something that I think the ecosystem and as a business has been running and doing what it's supposed to do, it's getting results for clients.
Then let's step into I'll call it stage. You know, it's the next level is. Yeah. Yeah okay. Where does this go. And I hear growing the business, the struggles of putting the right team members in place. You know, you have these. How do we make the how do we how do we separate these layers so that everything functions properly?
How do we build the structures. So that design team and studio works well with accounts and with growth marketing. Like how does that all work together? And then for us, I would say in that phase we also started. That's when I built the relationship with our South African company. Right. So I wanted to grow the business.
And so I said, oh, man. Like, I met a buddy of mine, Paul, and he was talking to me about, like, what do you want to do with a company? I was like, well, I mean, look, we're doing great. We're like, you know, revenue is just kind of like steady, but up and down every year. But I really want to grow. Like, I want to get past this mark of, you know, I think we were keep hitting, kind of bumping into that 2 million a year or something, you know, between 1.5 and 2 million.
It was great. It's a good lifestyle business. And I just said, I want to grow something that can last longer and has more, you know, has more structure to it that could grow and maybe someday be purchased or bought out. So I brought that my my South African team. And we basically came together and we made a deal.
I was like, yeah, look, look, we'll give you shares in the whole company and you give us all of your company. So we had like 35 people down there at the time, all of us clients and revenue. And our goal was so now we're going to integrate that team into the US team. Man, if I thought that was going to be easier then than I did, what, ten years later?
Right. It it took a while to get us fully Integrated. Um, you know, we were operating on two different, you know, margins, like he had his his margins in the South Africa. We were in the US and we were both running different, you know, NLS and at some point, literally like three years ago while we were doing all this, we merged that together, said, hey, we're one company, let's stop running two different things and let's work together.
Ideally, the goal was we helped to drive us business through, manage the quality layer and have our team there that are I mean, South Africans, Elon Musk, you know, they're extremely intelligent, well-spoken. And we we love we've created great friendships with all and but it's not like outsourcing right.
It's really different. So when we when we bought them or sort of bought into them and brought them into the team and HCM became a partner with me, um, it was like, oh cool. We, we established a multi location multi global company. And uh, but we were having to work with time zones and figure oh that was just it's crazy.
But it was a good idea. We thought if we could work with better margins you know getting us work and also using our Essar team to offset those costs a bit. That was a good margin game for us. So it was a little tricky. And I think we we learned a lot over the years, and I think we're really just sort of hitting the stride with it because there's a lot of things that are missing there too, that context, relevance, US market.
You know, it's hard to get that understanding that you have in the US. So I think we've found what works best for us there. But here we are. That's sort of the next season I will call it where we're in now, where we're really, I think, hitting the ground running with that and and finding what makes sense for all of us.
But yeah, I mean, I guess that's the story, you know, but it's a constant evolving story. Right? And each chapter sort of writes itself as you go. And one thing I've learned as a founder is you have to learn how to adapt, you know, stay true to who you are and what the business is. But how do you adapt your business and your role, even in the company, as it changes around you?
And you see that today? I mean, you work with a lot of companies where technology is like, it's just totally disrupting them. And I've been hearing the word digital transformation for like, you know, how many years. But it's true, right? There are companies totally evolving not to spreadsheets, but like to autonomous AI agents workflows in their businesses and their construction companies.
And it's like, whoa, like, how does that work? These don't seem like, well, it does. And that's where again, whatever foundry you are and whatever industry you're in, I think you really have to look at what's around you and evaluate everything at all times. And how does that apply to my business. Right.
So yeah. So I think the stories are written, some of them are our chapters are written, some of them by our own means and others by like, you know, like it's a typical story, right? Challenge. Like there's a story like something I've been like, you know, this warrior's wife and son were killed, and now he must go face a battle.
Those things happen, right? So these little things in your life happen, and you got to go deal with it. And there becomes chapter, a new chapter. So yeah, totally. So you talked about one of the things that was interesting to me is that kind of, um, you've achieved the point of viability in the business. You've achieved some stability, a great lifestyle business, as you put it, I think.
Um, you know, we spend a lot of time especially like, even just on this podcast with the people I've been talking to. We talk about the very early stages and then we talk once you're past ten, $20 million in revenue. But there's this there's this other stage that I think a lot of people where it's like, you may not be in this hypergrowth mode already, and you may be past the point of achieving some sort of viability, but you're in this, I'm going to call it like this moment of being a little bit stuck.
Um,
00:19:08.250 — 00:39:55.770
what would you say to somebody who's in that season, and what type of advice would you give them beyond, uh, partnership or beyond, like practical advice that you would have for somebody to, to take the next step if they want to grow? Of course. Yeah. For sure. And I would say we had to do that too, because yes, we were in a lifestyle sort of business.
But as we started to add people and do this part, it changed, right? We started looking at EBITDA, we started looking at all these things. How do we be profitable? It's all the great stuff you want to have in your business, but I would honestly say that wasn't what my focus was in the beginning was do great work, do do more stuff, solve more problems.
So people that are in that space, I think, you know, you have to be aware of your surroundings and I'll say it that way is like, you know, just because you started one way. I mean, think about we've been in business for 20 years. Just because I started one way doesn't mean I'm going to end that way. Right? And so this is that point where you have to decide, um, am I analyzing strategy, something that's ongoing.
And I think that's inside the business for your clients. So but if you take a look and evaluate everything every year and just say, okay, you know, look, what were our KPIs this year? Did we hit them? What were we trying to accomplish here? What we were trying to accomplish? Is there any outliers or things that are affecting our industry?
Um, what can we do to change that? Is there anything we can do to change that or do we need to adapt and evolve? So I would say, you know, to a founder that is in those the throes of it is don't think that just the way you started is the way you're going to finish, you know, that, uh, be open to change. I mean, change is like.
Change management is part of life. And especially as you as a founder and in running a business. And I think you just have to have to adapt and look at things for what they are. And it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to overthink it either, but you need to look at what the problems are. Like, what's our problem?
You know? Think of all the clients you work for and we work for it. Challenge solution results. Look at those challenges. Are they positives or negatives? Are they business breakers or business makers? Um, just because it is hurting your business now, it could be the thing that elevates you to the next level.
If you if you can evolve with the business to do that. So I look at those things as exciting little road, little things that pop up on the road that you have to deal with. But um, yeah, I would just encourage to always don't just set it into, um, you know, sort of self-drive mode and expect it to continue to do what it needs to do.
Right? Um, you always want to be evaluating. Yeah, yeah. For somebody who, um, let's say that they're not averse to change their maybe even pursue it more. Yeah. Uh, they're a little bit distracted. Dangerous. Um, but but for somebody who doesn't really struggle with that, and they're sitting in the founder's seat, but instead their challenge is, is how do I get my team to embrace change as a good thing?
Sure. Um, you were, uh, managing a team back whenever you kind of were in that in that phase, and you continue to be heavily involved in that. But what would you say to somebody who is struggling with getting a team to not think that you're being distracted and or, you know, squirrel, uh, but um, but instead, like really having them see the value in pursuing betterment like that.
Well, it's probably the same way I would, you know, position like my wife that I need a new, larger TV is, you know, do some research. I'm going to like, position it, you know, but I think it really is about, you know, you want to get people to feel and with clients to you want them to feel like they were part of the decision.
And so a lot of times, what I do and what we've done in the past is like we ask a lot of questions to the team like, hey, AI is a good example, right? We've been dealing with the AI in search, you know, just how do you insert this into your business? There's so many tools you could like, you know, we could use a tool for this, or we could use a tool for that.
It's like, okay, let's like, let's calm down. Let's what what are the tools that can make the most impact? How can they create efficiencies in the business for copy or for creative or whatever that may be operations. And like sort of one set up. So you want to like slow it down a little bit. But usually what I do is I we've tried to get the people involved.
We have not only do we have our executive team, we have our leadership team. That leadership team is responsible for running the a lot of the different teams below, but we ask them to be a part of the decisions we make, right? So it's like, hey, we're talking about this. What what's your input? What's your input?
Because you want it to feel like we all made this decision together. And in the end, you know, the exact team and the leadership team is going to say, hey, look, we we've heard everything and here's our suggestions and here's how we do it. But but I think at that point then they feel like they've been heard.
Because that's the thing I challenge, I think with people not wanting to do something, it's usually because they don't. Maybe they don't like change, but maybe they don't feel like you're hearing them. Why do they not want to change? Is the core question right? So you don't want to change that? Why don't you want to change it?
Well, my job is going to be harder. Their mindset is like, how is this going to affect my world? And yet if you show them like, well, this change might take a little bit of work in the beginning, but it's going to make your job easier in the end. Oh, like it's conversations. I think like that, that are really critical in whatever business you're in.
Again, I've worked with a lot of companies where I've gone in to do their brand strategy, and I've found a ton of infrastructure problems. I'm like, oh my gosh, you guys like, you're not even marketing? Yeah. You know, that's what we're looking at your brand. I mean, like this is like the ethos of a consulting thing is you go in and you see like, wow, did you know that your engineering team doesn't speak to these people?
Yeah. And did you know that the operations is not talking to tech like you guys are all over the place? There's fractures. Until you fix these fractures, you're still going to have these problems all over your company. And so I think it's communication, man. That's that's at the core of it just talking through things.
Um, not forcing it upon people. I think it's harder and harder as you get bigger and bigger. I mean, you're talking companies that are, you know, $300 million in revenue. That's a lot harder to do that. But I think you can still have people that represent those people speaking on their behalf and saying what's important.
I think it's really good to do that, though. Totally. I feel like change is one of those things where, um, like, I always think about my journey and whenever I, um, originally started, I wanted to have my team be really heavily involved in every decision because I'm an empathetic person and I, you know, value people and all these things.
Um, yet I'm also highly dynamic and very scattered and all the things. And so what I did was, is I would include them and then I would almost I found myself I didn't realize that at the time, but almost trying to, um, take their, their feedback and implement all of it as opposed to using my intuition and playing my role, which I really feel is curation of good feedback and then, um, selling back to them the benefit of how I've curated that feedback into actually rolling it out in the business.
I think that takes, um, it takes somebody, uh, a little bit of practice to get there. I think that, you know, you have to be able to listen. And then I think the key thing here is to be able to discern and then, uh, and to really kind of, um, not feel like you're letting somebody down by not implementing everything that they said.
Yeah. I agree, that's a good I mean, it's great to be self-aware like that too, that you, you know, learn those things. I think it's really important for every founder to learn how to be self-aware in that way, or people that are running a company. Um, you know, the other thing also that really helps is just camaraderie and like, culture.
Yeah, totally. If you have a good culture and I know you guys do have Mallard here and same thing with magnetic. It's been the thing we hang our hat on is like people stay at our company. They they've been there for ten plus years. And you know, some of the guys 20 years, like when I started the company. And it comes down to like we trust each other and like we're going to make decisions that are best for each other.
I mean, a great example that's like Covid. I mean, there's a lot of people that just lopped off of their company, their employees and got rid of everybody because Covid, we couldn't really do as much as we. And but PGP dollars came out and we're like, well, this isn't the best great way to put our business in debt.
But like, let's get some of this money to help keep the company around. And, you know, I look back and people really appreciated that. You know, like I did get fired during Covid, which is such a heartless thing to do. But um, but yeah, it was it was a really tricky time for the business, but we had to make a decision what was best for the company and what was best for our people.
And I think that that's just you earned that over time, right? And those kinds of things are huge. But just being able to have honest conversations, we've opened now we talk a lot about what's going on with the business, with the company. Right. We do all hands meetings and we share like here's where our financials are.
Like, here's how we did this year. We started doing a sharing program. So like if, you know, at the end of the year, we're profitable, we take a percentage of that, put it on the side, and then it's based off of a calculation of their years with the business. And you know what their role is. And they get a bonus every year.
Like everybody loves that. So now we're all in it together. And so it's not about oh, I just want to do this because I think it's cool. It's also going to help us make money like it's it's a business. And that's a big one I think from a creative side of things. Right. You look at, you know, a design side like, oh, you know like let's just do, let's just do cool stuff.
But in the end it's like it's got to be it's commercial design. We're designing for clients, so it's got to work. It's got to do what it's got to do. It's still got to be cool. You know? That's the that's the baseline. But how do we do it within their business so that it makes the right thing for them. So but I think bringing people into the picture, making them part of it.
Like you said, I think it's and having the discernment as the leadership team or the, the founder to make the right decision and maybe, you know, don't do everything all at once, you know, like, let's start here. You know, phase it out. Yeah. That's why. And that way you don't have to do it. Because again, change is good, but it can also kill you if you do too much of it at the same time.
So totally foundationally. Take the right steps, build upon it. And it's also the way you can get poise. Employees on board and teams on board is show them one thing and let them build on that. Show that it's working, and then keep moving. So adoption becomes much easier at that point. It's good. Let's talk about, um, creative entrepreneurs, uh, because you and I both fall into that category.
Um, you know, I talked to a lot of artists who want to become business owners, or I talked to technicians who want to become business owners, or maybe even business people who want to become creative. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But, you know, I, I noticed that there is a lot of things for those people, me included, probably you included early on in your journey that are potential, um, potential pitfalls.
Um, you know, running a creative business is not easy. I mean, the product that we sell is highly subjective in a lot of cases. I mean, strategy creates a lot of hard conversations because it's really, you know, change management and you're almost causing change without maybe some of you even asking for it in certain cases.
I change my logo and change all my boards. Now my all my building. Yeah, totally. Yeah, exactly. There's implications for that. And, um, and so what are some things that you would say to somebody who is a creative entrepreneur? Maybe they are somebody who's freelance for a hot minute and they're like, wow, I'm doing a lot.
And I could really use some help. Maybe I'm a maybe I'm a DP and all of a sudden my, like calendar is filling up with tons of edits on top of that. And maybe I should build a production company or, you know, a designer who's like, you know, branding a bunch of companies this year and they're like, I wonder if I could scale this?
Yeah. What are some pieces of advice you would give them, especially for a creative entrepreneur? Um, I mean, I think you and I both know how hard it is to, uh, you know, run a business where you're making sure there's enough work for everybody, right? And there's a lot of risk involved when you hire employees and you start paying benefits and you have all these things.
And so, um, you know, like, I, I feel your position and I'm sure you feel mine when you, when you look at this is it's hard. I mean, I'm not going to lie. Right. And and I also take it very seriously or I would take it very seriously because it's people's lives, you know, that you're dealing with here and, you know, it's their livelihoods.
So if you're a creative entrepreneur and you're doing well, you know, I would say stay lean and mean and like, I mean, the the reason you I mean, if a business is going to grow, let it grow around you. Right. Um, I think one of the things we started doing as we kind of got going. Like I said, I started with a certain amount of people, core group, we were all contractors and then sort of like, oh my gosh, I've got, you know, 12 people and we're doing X amount of dollars in revenue.
Like, it kind of makes sense for us to have a building and a, you know, location now and like actually hire everybody as employees. And so I would just say take it slow. There's no rush. Right? And, um, it's also. How's it affecting you? Right. There's only a certain amount of work you can do. And I know that's what I found was I was doing a lot of the work, and then I started bringing people into me, like, cool, if you can do the work that I don't, and I don't need to do it, then great.
Then it'll I can grow the business, I can do more. And so I think if you find yourself as a creative entrepreneur, stay entrepreneurial like don't, don't. And everybody wants to be own their own business. But you're owning your own business by being an entrepreneur. And there's nobody better to run your own than you.
Write like and make it. Make it something you enjoy, especially as a creative. I think there's a huge, you know, there's a mental state you want to be in. Uh, you don't want to be like you're in a job shop. It's not just about making money. It's about fulfilling this creative need that you have and fulfilling that for your clients and customers and people.
Um, so I guess my yeah, mine would be take it slow, don't rush it when when the revenue and the volume sort of makes sense to maybe have a small team or bring people in because you also if you deal with contractors you they might not be available. Yeah. So in some way you're like I need to lock these people in. But um, but the other part is, is like, if you ever start hiring people.
I did that in the beginning. I mean, I knew people that I was bringing in from other previous places I had worked and, and so and they were friends. And I was like, man, you know, like my two of my best friends are my ECD now and my chief of digital. So like they've been with the company and again, I right out of the gate, I was like, I want these guys.
So you want to build people like the right kind. It's like you're building a team, right? And you want this like you want a dynasty team, or, you know, then you want the right people standing by you. Yeah. And so, uh, I looked at a lot like that, a collaborative partnership in the ways even in the beginning, even though I was running the stuff, it was like that was just because I happened to be in a spot where I started getting the work, and I started this thing, but, um.
But yeah, I think the biggest thing for a creative entrepreneur is don't rush it. Take your time again, focus on your craft and do what's. Because if you focus on your craft and you're getting busy, it means you're doing something right. Yeah, right. And then I would encourage them to not keep charging what they're charging, but slightly raise their prices.
So you're doing less work and making more money. And then at some point, if that gets to a point of scale, then you can start, you know, bringing more people in. But I mean, hey, why ruin a good thing when you got, you know, good stuff happening? But if it's if it's really your desire, you kind of have the two, right?
You have people that want to start a company and they start with, I mean, you you kind of said, I'm going to start an agency and like started it. Right. That wild man that's so wild. That's impressive. Impressive. I was more on the side of like, ah, I mean, I do this stuff. Why don't I just start doing things and then I'll grow.
I think those are the two paths. Yeah, it's kind of like you probably are in the majority, and I'm probably this, like, you know, psychopathic minority. But, um, you know, I, uh, I definitely, I think, like about my journey and I think about the things that I would like, the couple of things I would recommend to somebody like that as you're talking, I'm thinking.
And the first one that comes to mind is identify the people you want to be like when you grow up, and then ask them if you can pay them $250 an hour to consult you twice a month. Yeah. That's like honestly been probably the I mean, if you want to become somebody, you have to surround yourself with them. And for people who you want to become, they usually they usually have a problem not with money but with time.
And so people like that, usually they'll either do it for free if you ask them or they'll, um, see that you respect their time enough to pay them a substantial hourly rate. And so that'd be the first thing I would say is, who do you want to be like? That person can help you not just with the practical stuff, but they could also help you to discern, do I actually want to do this or not?
Um, you know, if you're at the point to where you're making, let's call it, um, $10,000 a month and you want to grow to $50,000 a month, just practically speaking, that is going to be a really hard road, and you're probably going to need to be surrounded by some really smart people And those people, not only should they be smart.
They should also be able to emotionally sustain you and help guide you in those moments where you're about to quit because that will happen, happens too. I mean, almost everybody I talk to who's in this bucket. So that's the first thing I would say. And then the second thing I would say is that whenever I the main pitfall I see is people who are currently charging a day rate and they're trying to switch to charging a project rate.
Got it. And that to me, I feel like is a big switch because people have historically seen you as, okay, well, I'm going to pay you either a very small rate for a project or I'm going to pay you for a day's worth of work or an hourly rate or whatever it might be. And switching that. And I think the main thing that's been helpful for us has been, how am I packaging my product to be a solution to a really big problem that people feel?
So it's not I'm going to go and shoot a video and edit it for X amount. It is. I am going to solve the problem that your current your current candidate pool doesn't know what it's like to work for your company, and that is a huge problem. And then applying the exact same solution, but at a much elevated cost. I think that that's been transformational for me really early on in my journey was product ization and packaging of services.
Sure. Have you seen that? Yeah, I think I would add on to that where um, I'm also a big fan of like value based billing. Like, what is the value? Sure. Totally. Um, because I, I'm a I have this challenge that we face or so you face to, um, of being a commodity. And I think where that comes from, we actually had one of our, one of our developers about 15 years ago or ten years ago, his wife was going through like her master's program, and she was like evaluating companies.
And she's like, hey, can I get to evaluate your company as part of my program? And she did all this interviews and she did all this really cool stuff and came back and she was like, she goes, I want to give you some really good feedback that I want to give you. I was like, great, what is it? She goes, You will always fight a commodity battle when you're just facing creative execution.
As you're as you're as your main thing. Yeah, but if you keep honing in on the strategy side of things, she's like, people will always pay for big ideas. They'll always pay for that because they can't. They don't have them. That's what they need from you. But if you just, you know, focus on execution, you're going to get driven down, just like, you know, the TV market, you know, and I can buy TV for 200 bucks, right?
It's become a commodity. But if you create something that you know isn't a that is like this is what differentiates us that that really is what's the value of that. Right. Right. So my my thing has been that is really how do we create value for companies. What is that value in the market to companies. And how do I sell that.
So yes it is packaged in like things. But I also want to get that point across that I try not to, to to look at it as, uh, just just dollars and cents. It's not about time. It's not even about project. Like even right now. Like what I'm doing right now. I'm a fractional. I call myself a fractional chief brand assassin, right?
So it's my job. Come in. I'm your. I'm one part chief creative officer. I'm one part. Chief brand officer. Chief strategy. Chief marketing. I do all those things. So when I go in, it's like you're basically renting my time, like a percentage of my time. So, you know, I do X amount of dollars or X amount of percentage.
I have 100% of my time. Well, let's call it 80%. I'm going to rent out 80% of my time this month. What is the value. And I have and I do have packages based on percentage of time, but there's no hours in there. It's just like this is a percentage of my mindshare that I'm working on your stuff for you. But what you're getting is like a fractional three headed monster of sorts as an executive in your business that can handle all of these problems for you.
So these headaches now become opportunities for you. And so, yeah, I think it's just how you position it. Gosh, it's such a big difference. I agree with you. Like, you know, I hate the I hate the hourly game because like totally. So example would be um. Oh well how long did that take you I mean, well Chris, do you know Chris do.
Chris Christie does a great job talking about this, but it's this idea that doesn't matter how long it took. Yeah. Did you get this logo or this thing at the end of the day that was going to change your business worth more to you if it took me four times as long? Okay. Yeah. So it took me 80 hours. Great. It only took me four, but it doesn't matter.
Yeah, it's still the same value. So that to me is a critical piece there. And I think, you know, Mercedes is a Mercedes. You don't, you know, you can't get it for less than it is. It's what it costs. And so I look at it like that is. Yes. Like let's create packages. But the packages need to be aligned with the value of what it is.
Totally. It's basically, I think that one thing that you really, um, live out well, that I've tried to emulate is, um. And maybe this is not. Maybe this is not how you think of yourself, but, you know, it's. I'll tell you, I love it,
00:39:56.930 — 00:43:13.090
but like, I think of, um, you know, if I package my services and put a price against that value creation, um, of X amount of dollars, and somebody says there is, uh, there's just no way that I'm going to be able to afford that. That's totally fine. Can I give you some free ideas that might be able to help you? Um, and still, like, I think that you do that really well, and I think that we've truly tried to emulate that of, um, at the end of the day, I really, I really actually do care about adding value for you, regardless of if you're paying me dollars and cents and you're actually completing my QuickBooks invoice.
Like, the truth of the matter is, is that, like, I don't know that life is long enough for me to be that gatekeeping of my talents. Yeah. And, um, anyways, I think you do that really well. And, uh, I'm not trying to tell everybody that you'll work for free, uh, but because you definitely shouldn't. Because the value you create is so, so vast.
Um, and so, so, so helpful. And I think that that's something that I, I really, I think most businesses need. That leads to my next question, which is, do you think that the future of small to mid-size business relationship with agency is more Call it fractional brand assassin or fractional CMO or, you know, fractional revenue.
Uh, you know, um, person, whatever it might be. Do you think that that's the nature of relationships moving forward, or do you think that traditional agency model will remain intact, given what we're facing? I would say traditional agency model, not so much, but some kind of hybridization of that. Yeah.
Um, I think no matter who you are in the agency world today, whether you are a fractional, you know, again, what what I think is happen is the big, big agencies are having to cut margins, you know, get margins back in their business. So they're cutting really talented people. Those talented people are starting fractional businesses and running the trickle down of basically going out and working for these companies and with AI toolsets and whatnot.
I mean, just in the last few years I've done this, I've realized, wow, like, I actually can tenax myself based on what is available to me. I mean, I can like recording a podcast like I do these, I'll record a podcast. I edit social cuts, or I have somebody, you know, but they're all done. I don't need an entire team to do this stuff.
So the capability is there, and especially if you're a maker or a creator and you're able to do those things. Um, but I will say, I think that just the expectation from an agency is going to get higher. Yeah. It's not that I think the marginal agencies will fall by the wayside, and it'll be the ones that stand out that really are truly solving business problems for companies.
Um, I think that's the biggest thing I see is, you know, we've built relationships with brands that have been we've been down with for ten years or plus ten years, and they stay with us. Not, you know, the works great, but they stay with us because of the relationship. We've built a knowledge base with them.
We are constantly thinking on their behalf. We're, you know, kind of an extension of them. But you're the thinkers for them right there in the day to day grinding things out. And our jobs try to figure out how to do more of the good things and get rid of the bad things and sort that out. So that partnership level is so different.
I think I've always I'll just put it. I've always not loved the concept of being a
00:43:14.170 — 00:56:49.480
provider to someone or like, you know, oh, this is our vendor. Oh, I hate that word. Yeah, I hate them. And me to a vendor. What do I sell? Popcorn. Yeah. What am I doing here? Yeah, yeah. Brands. You know, you know, whatever DNA here for you like I am. I really like the idea of being a partnership because it's so you invest so much time into companies that I think you need to have that connection point.
So I think it's about relationship. Um, I think it's about trust that you build, buy, buy action, right? You can't get trust without earning it. So I think you have to get into those companies, show the value. Same thing. Let's let's create value. This isn't about dollars and cents or checking off a box or, you know, buy this thing and get that back in return.
This is a deeply embedded kind of thing. We're focused on outcomes. So not not that not every agency is right. Some people are like, I just want to create the next cool campaign. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that kind of thing is going to start to slide away a little bit. It's going to lead into the crater, you know, sort of, I don't know, a sort of creative economy creator economy where all these people can just create great stuff.
There's directors and creators out there that can do those projects, and they're not going to be able to compete price wise with agencies aren't going to able to compete with them. Um, or, you know, you have talented individuals that are out there that are able to do this work at a fraction of the cost, but for them, it's not, you know, like I looked at last year doing what I was and my margins were great.
Yeah. I don't know my, my employee to uh, to cost ratio was pretty good. It was just me really for the most part. Um, but but in the end, I think, yeah, it's finding the you really need to establish that value together with the business. And it also comes with, you know, we talked about this a little bit of like doing reviews along the way, like with the client.
Like talking about, you know, hey, like what else can we do better. Where else you need our help because sometimes they don't tell you. And I'm like, I need that friendship and relationship where if something's not working, you talk to us about it or talk to me about it. And I see that now when I'm integrated and it's like I'm the I'm solving all these problems for the business.
I'm working like an operator in a company where I'm taking all the problems away. If you slide that between you have this agency wall, now you've got this like, you know, you have an account person and you've got a strategist and you've got your design team in the studio. And oh, and then the CEO sometimes talk to each other.
There's sort of this weird wall, you know, it's like the what's the Game of Thrones wall? The white wall is just there. But, um, this connection point is so critical. And I think the more connection points you make with the business and the ones that I think we see the most, the best results in the longer term, relationships are like we just create this bond that they trust us so deeply.
You know, when they get an idea in the middle of the night, they're texting it to us or they're just, hey, I need to think about this. Can you help me solve it? Not what am I going to do to solve this? And I think if you're that go to in those areas, um, it's something we always talk about at magnetic. But I would say it to everybody out there in this world is about this is make yourself like in.
Like so valuable that the company can't live without you. Whether it's working for a business or working with businesses. I think that's the thing is, you have to make something that like you're in disposable, and if you are going to be careful, that's where you got to check yourself and realize that somebody else could do this, you know?
And I think you get in the habit of we've got there too, where clients, maybe they lower their budget or something. They're like, oh, well, we just need to execute this year. And then you start executing and then in the year they're like, well, you guys didn't do much strategy this year. I'm like, well, you guys gave us an execution budget to execute, but you're not.
So get back to the all right. So don't ever take the thinking out of it. Because again I just that was exact reason like, oh commodity to uh, invaluable. So that's the big that's the big difference. I think that agencies will see the change in is the no longer can you get away with just being you know, well run your we'll run your ad, you know, budget and you know I think that's big, big, big companies are starting to see it too.
You don't think, uh, companies themselves are using AI tool sets. You don't think they're trying to write their own copy. And so I think the brains behind it. If you as the agency or as the company working with the companies, the brands, if you can find that way to say like, hey, like you need us, we can articulate and orchestrate better than anybody on your behalf.
And yeah, we can do it better and we're going to be more efficient on our end. We'll tighten up our margins to do the work. But I think you have to create that relationship where it's disposable. Totally. So good. I feel like, um, one of the things that I would encourage people to do is to vet your clients just as much as they're vetting you.
Oh, boy. Um, really thinking about, you know, like, are they really looking? Ask yourself the question, are they looking for a partner or are they looking for hands and feet to do the work? And I think that if they're looking for hands and feet, then your, um, I can, um, I mean, not guarantee, but I can I can be pretty certain that that's probably not a long term relationship that you're about to establish, and you should probably just guard your expectations because it probably sometimes I think it can morph into that.
But I think that if it's not starting there, then they probably haven't developed their thoughts enough about what the solution is that they really need at the end of the day. Um, the thing, the thing that I'm seeing is just the the true value is in strategists and tastemakers being the, the mixture of what is really needed.
So like just strategy without creative taste, I think doesn't allow for us to take creative problem solving and put it on top of great strategy and use that as a problem solving mechanism. Um, the execution of that creative, I think is up for interpretation of how that happens long term. Um, but I think that being a if you, if you want to protect yourself, if and you're a creative entrepreneur, I would surround yourself with great strategists and learn from them and practice it often.
Um, uh, do it for free. Get your reps, whatever you need to do. Uh, and then the second thing is either become or surround yourself with people who are really great at curating great creative ideas and have amazing taste that is going to be able to align with the strategy that you or someone else works on. Those two roles feel irreplaceable to me in a lot of ways, and feel really at a there's a high demand for them right now.
I 100% agree, and I think you said it earlier and it's kind of funny. You know, we came from two sides of this when we started our agencies. And I think one of the things you start to learn as a founder is to recognize your weaknesses. Okay. And it's like, okay, like, uh, you're not a creative. You're a money guy.
You I mean, you are creative. I'm sorry. I'm not saying you're not creative. No, no, no, it's okay, but you're more of a money guy. You call me a money guy. You like spreadsheets, I do not. And so, like, here we are, two different sides of the table. So I recognize that early. But I think if I recognize it even earlier, we would have been more successful on the profitability and the money side because I didn't do that stuff.
I just I was like, I don't know how to. I'm just getting more work in the door, paying the people. I mean, just that was how we did it. That was the lifestyle business of it. But if I'd have earlier said, I need a I need a Sean in my life, right? What if I could connect with him? And you do that? You're running the new business.
I'm doing the work like that is the key component is. So know your weaknesses and be aware of them and fill those gaps. Sometimes that's partnerships, sometimes that's just bringing in key employees. But you're spot on with that idea of like, you know, again, whether you're looking for those things in your with strategists, tastemakers, people that can actually operate the business, like all of those things are critical because if one of them fails, you know, you're in trouble.
But yeah. So good. Okay, so I always wrap every conversation with this question, or at least I try to anyway. Sometimes I ask at mid-cycle because I can't wait. But, um, tell me if there was if there was a third member of our conversation today and that person was this, uh, basically in the same seat that you were in back 20 years ago as you were, um, starting magnetic, uh, just somebody who's early on, somebody who's just starting their business and, um, and really is trying to to make it grow, create viability.
Like just trying to get it off the ground. What's one piece of encouragement, one piece of advice that you would give them? Um, so I think it's really important to truly understand what your offering and value is like. What do you want? Like anything. Right. If I'm going to if I'm going back to business school or I'm going to go, I talk to a lot of college kids about this that are in, you know, their master's programs.
And I have a master's in doing business, not, you know, MBA or anything like actually in life. Um, but, you know, they'll sit down and be like, okay, so if you were to do this as a founder or starting a new company, like, you know, you have to know, like, have I done my research right? And the same thing we do with companies, a lot of times they get going and they start and then they have to do research again.
And as the business has changed. So I would say do your research and homework around, you know, what are you bringing to the market and how is it different. Because how you tell your story is really critical. If you tell the wrong story, you might get the right, the wrong kind of work, the wrong kind of clients.
Um, I love what you said about, um, I think over the years I made just bad decisions with clients that I worked for, and they just took away so much time and energy from the work. Other clients that were great. And, like, I just kept going because, like, well, it's money. It's we're getting it in the door. And I would say so be selective about, especially in the beginning, who you work with.
You want people that value what you bring to them and you want them to value. You know, you want a mutually valuable relationship together. Um, so I go back to the beginning like we're starting kind of it's like, what's minimum viable product look like, you know, how do I sell this to someone, and is it valuable?
And then scale it from there? Right. But you use it as a testing phase. Um, I have this saying that we've been using for a long time, and it's like, let's start a lot of little fires and see what burns brightest and then run like hell to the one that that's got burning the brightest. Right? Because that's where you put all the all the energy into.
And so I think I would have started more fires early on instead of saying like, you know, like we're in this, you know, we're doing this, you know, I would have think I would have explored a little bit more and tried to see, you know, what, again, did my did what we do. Was there a certain industry I should focus on?
I think sometimes people get so like, well, we're agnostic, we can work for anybody. And we've gotten into that too, where we've done a lot of different work and a lot of industries, and then we've like. But then you focus and you're like, well, there's less revenue here in this area if we just focus on CPG or something.
And so, um, so I think it's really just making sure you're doing that due diligence in the beginning. And, and just remember to start out and constantly reevaluate the things that you're doing. It's not that, you know, you might have a great idea, but you got to like pressure test it, you know, and, you know, talk.
Like you said. I think it's great advice to bring people in, whether it's mentors or businesses and say like, hey, I kind of I've done this now with a few people, even what I'm doing now, or I'm like, hey, look like if you need help with this, like, you know, great, like I can help you. I can do this in I, I don't I don't need any help with this.
A great. Why don't you go off and do your version of AI, and I'll come back with my version of AI or my version of this, and, like, let's see who's got better ideas, you know, so you kind of prove it out to them. And it's like they come back and it's like just exactly what you would expect out of like an entry point here.
And then more strategic, you know, thought leader led or like strategically led AI integration as well. And come back. Here's the two different sets of ideas that I've modified a bunch. And look which one do you think is better. So I think it's you want to prove it, but steps slowly, like go through the process with your business to kind of prove it out.
Make sure you're going to know at some point where it's like it's clicking, you know, everything's and then you'll find the spots that it's not. And and so I said I would just say be aware that, you know, every idea isn't always perfect. And every business idea is not always perfect. But and if you haven't run a business where you're going to run into a lot of hurdles and so be prepared to jump some hurdles and kind of adapt and and not expect there to be no change throughout the process.
And yeah, seek others help. Talk to people that have been doing it. Uh, you know, I think that you and I both, we're I'm a very much a like. Let's connect. I don't care, you know, competitors or not. It doesn't matter. I love this community that we're in. And I want to share as much as I can because it's a, you know, I want to pass that on.
You know, that's that's part of my mentor vibe. I, I like that. I like to make people feel like they take something away and then they go do it. And it's great. So I would get with mentors. Especially especially if you're starting something new and they'll give you more than you think, like, out of it. And I think that if you respect them and buy them lunch, talk to them like go out and say, hey, would you be willing to have these conversations?
I think that goes a long way. And um, and start small burn that burns some small fires and see what burns brightest. And then when the one burns, you dump some gasoline on that. That's my that's my whole take. So totally couldn't agree more. Um, loved, loved the time, uh, and really just enjoyed the conversation.
Um, I know that you would say this, so I'll just say it to anybody who's listening that, um, you know, if, uh, myself or Dave can be, uh, a resource for any of you out there, feel free to reach out. Um, I mean, at the end of the day, like, we're not just in this for money. Uh, we're in this for, um, really making a tangible difference for real human beings who are maybe struggling.
Um, and you don't have to actually do it alone. There are plenty of people out there. Uh, know that there's people like Dave and I. There's hundreds, if not thousands of people that are probably within within arm's reach. That would especially with, uh, you know, LinkedIn or social media. So feel free to reach out.
Um, really appreciate the time. Always have looked up to you. Um, and, uh, funny story is that Dave, uh, you went to my dad's church, and I did, I did back in the day, and we found that out, uh, which is such a funny connection point because we are not in California right now. No. And you live five minutes from my studio, which is just the craziest thing ever.
So I love how the Lord works, and I'm excited to be in relationship with you. Thanks for the time.