Speaking to the heart

In this episode of the 'to the heart' podcast, Helen Thorne-Allenson, Steve Midgley, and Andrew Collins explore the importance of heart-centered conversations within the church. They discuss the nature of the heart in biblical counselling, the appropriateness of depth in conversations, and how to respond to individuals sharing their struggles. The conversation emphasises the need for understanding, humility, and the role of Scripture in facilitating change. Practical applications are provided, particularly in addressing issues like envy, and the team discuss encouraging a culture of openness and honesty in church communities.

Takeaways:

• The heart is central to our relationship with God.
• Churches should foster environments for heart-centered conversations.
• Navigating social norms is crucial in deep conversations.
• Acknowledging someone's struggle takes courage and humility.
• Understanding is a collaborative process, not a one-sided analysis.
• The Holy Spirit plays a vital role in revealing truths.
• Change is a complex process involving both understanding and action.
• Scripture should be woven into conversations naturally.
• Building a culture of openness can transform church dynamics.
• Everyone can grow in their ability to engage deeply with others.

Real Change
The Real Change course is discussed towards the end of the episode.

Chapters:

00:00 -Introduction to Heart-Centered Conversations

00:56 -Understanding the Heart in Biblical Counseling

02:57 -Navigating Depth in Church Conversations

06:59 -Responding to Heartfelt Struggles

11:33 -Exploring Deeper Issues of the Heart

14:17 -The Role of Understanding in Heart Conversations

17:15 -The Process of Change and Scripture's Role

22:31 -Practical Applications: Envy and Heart Issues

32:59 -Building a Culture of Openness in the Church

Hosted by Helen Thorne-Allenson and produced by Andrew McKenna.
Find all episodes on your favourite podcast provider or at bcuk.org/podcast
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To support the work of BCUK visit bcuk.org/get-church-talking

Creators and Guests

Host

Helen Thorne-Allenson

Director of Training and Resources at BCUK

Guest

Andrew Collins

Director of Counselling Ministry at BCUK

Guest

Steve Midgley

Executive Director of BCUK

What is The BCUK Podcast?

Equipping churches for conversation and counsel

Helen (00:04)
Welcome to episode three of the To The Heart podcast from Biblical Counselling UK. Today we are going to be looking at the matter of speaking to the heart. I'm Helen Thorne-Allenson and with me today are Steve Midgley and Andrew Collins. Steve, Andrew, for those who maybe haven't heard previous episodes, would you like to introduce yourselves just briefly?

Steve (00:27)
Glad to Helen, it's lovely to be with you again this morning. I work as the Executive Director with BCUK and been a pastor before that for some 20 years.

Andrew (00:41)
Yeah, thanks, Helen. Again, likewise, great to be chatting to you folks. Yes, I'm the director of counseling ministry with BCUK and have been working with the certificate program for a couple of years just before this. And before that, I worked as a psychiatrist and also did some part time biblical counseling from home.

Helen (01:03)
Wonderful. Well, so far in our journey through to the heart, we've been looking at what the heart is, the importance of attending to the heart, how we encourage our churches to be places where the heart is listened to and discussed. But for those of us who maybe haven't heard the first couple of episodes or maybe heard them quite a long time ago, Andrew, can you give us a quick recap of the story so far?

Andrew (01:26)
I'll do my best, although quick recaps are usually not my strength, Helen, as you know, the heart in biblical counseling, we do think about it in maybe quite a specific way. We think about it as the part of us really that relates to God. So we think of it as our relationship with the Lord and that kind of center of us that relates to him ⁓ in faith. So, therefore, it's important to attend to it. ⁓ It refers to how we love God and serve God and

Trust God. So we want to give our attention ⁓ to that. It's the source of life and worship and growth and change. So it's a really ⁓ important area to be thinking about. And we want to encourage our churches to be thinking more about that, whether it's from ⁓ preaching that reaches the heart through to ⁓ conversations which reach the heart in terms of how we encourage one another, help one another.

And we want to be thinking about the culture of our churches, thinking more about the heart and attending more to it.

Helen (02:32)
Brilliant, thank you.

If we want our churches to be places that are wrestling with those kind of heart-centred conversations, maybe one really important question to start with is how deep is it actually appropriate to go in a church setting? I mean, do we just dive in to these really deep conversations with the people around us, or is there a better way of approaching it?

Steve (02:55)
guess ⁓ a desire to make spiritual progress with people doesn't mean that we can ⁓ clumsily sort of stampede past social norms. ⁓ There are ways in which, and it varies from culture to culture, and we need to be aware of that.

But each culture will have its expectations of the way that conversations work, the way that relationships work, the of the level of ⁓ speed with which ⁓ you can explore things with honesty. And actually an individual church as well, a bit of a culture around that as well. ⁓ And it would be weird and clumsy and odd to go sort of trampling over those social norms ⁓ in a way that

just feel peculiar. So there may be a desire to speak honestly ⁓ and to grow in ⁓ understanding and some measure of transparency within our friendships, but friendships grow over time and we need to make allowance for that.

Helen (04:13)
Yeah, the sort of wisdom things that we need to be aware of, ⁓ things like setting where we're having the conversation, anything spring to mind?

Andrew (04:24)
Yeah, I think think that is what Steve said there was really helpful about in a sense wanting it to be natural and not feel too kind of forced or staged. So for it to happen in a sort of a church foyer, kind of after after church or where we're seated with people around us, it feels natural. And I guess in those kind of settings, we're going to be careful about

in a sense, forcing people to speak more honestly or deeply about things in ways that might make them feel uncomfortable. might then decide to move the conversation or agree to meet at another time, perhaps. ⁓ So I think I think we do want to pay attention ⁓ to that. At the same time, it's lovely to see a culture grow where it can feel a bit more natural to speak honestly about things. We want to let that, I think, happen too.

Helen (05:20)
lovely isn't it after church where you do see people in little huddles maybe two or three people and they're clearly talking about something a little bit deeper and you can't hear what it is rightly so we don't want these things broadcast around but it is a joy but yeah you're absolutely right both of you it does take a while to grow towards that doesn't it ⁓ in our churches and indeed in our small groups as well.

Steve (05:46)
And I think making the connection, mean, Andrew made, helpfully observed earlier on that the heart is the part of us with which we connect with the Lord because it's the heart of us that makes allegiances. So part of those heart-centred conversations will be prayer. ⁓ And I think another thing really to foster in our churches is the ease with which people pray together. ⁓

I think that doesn't come easily if that's if rounding off a conversation by actually praying rather than as so often is the case, we say, I'll be praying for that. ⁓ But actually, all too often we don't. ⁓ And there is something more immediate and I think really good and healthy to bring it to the Lord in the moment.

Helen (06:37)
Absolutely. So we go slowly with growing this culture of talking about the heart. We are attentive to the social norms, but we don't run away from the fact that this can happen very normally, very naturally in the local church as we speak with one another and speak with the Lord. Well, maybe let's look a little bit about what that could look like in practice. ⁓

Let's think ⁓ maybe someone comes up to us. We've had a bit of a chit chat on a Sunday morning or midweek. We've done the small talk. We've done the how are you. We've done the what's going on at home or at work kind of conversation. And then there's a little bit of a pause. And someone says, you know, I am really struggling with my heart at the moment. I can see there's pride in there. I can see there's envy or maybe I can see there's discontent.

At that point the conversation is slightly shifting gear, isn't it? How do we respond when someone first brings up a topic like that?

Andrew (07:42)
Yeah, I mean, the first thing you think is, wow, isn't it wonderful that someone is willing to talk about level with me? And the one way to acknowledge that, I think, is good. Thank you so much for sharing this with me. And just to pause and to acknowledge that and to recognize that it has taken some courage, probably, for a person to share that with us.

⁓ I think a couple of other things maybe come to mind. One is just having a degree of humility, which kind of, ⁓ you know, recognizes, yes, we can all struggle with something like this. So it's a case of a, sometimes talk about it being a case of we and not you and me. ⁓ And that might be helpful. ⁓

And then guess just really beginning to open up the conversation, you tell me more. ⁓ What would be helpful to talk about? Tell me more about how you've been struggling about this, because clearly if the person has kind of opened up in that way, then there's something more that they want to begin to share about that struggle.

Steve (09:03)
And having said earlier, I think that's really helpful, Andrew, having said earlier that we need to be alert to kind of normal social rules of conversation. It just strikes me there is an element here where we may need to be alert to resist some of the kind of unspoken rules, because somebody tells you something

you the negative about themselves, you know, struggling with envy. And one of our social rules is you minimize, you normalize, you kind of reassure. ⁓ there's a nice and healthy instinct to that, but there's a real danger that actually we get in the way of somebody feeling able to describe something that, mean, if somebody said something like that, it really, it must matter to them.

I mean, that's a big thing for somebody to say. And as Andrew says, you want to say, gosh, thank you for sharing that. But then if you sort of close the conversation down by saying, yes, we can all be a bit envious sometimes, or, oh, I'm sure it's not so bad. You know, I think you're lovely. And you sort of, you you end up shutting the conversation down. And we may need to resist that instinct in us.

Helen (10:22)
really helpful. I see that in my own conversations. I'm very apt to say something like, ⁓ we're all human, which is true, but we're all fallen human and that fallenness needs addressing doesn't it? That old self needs taking off and the new self needs putting on.

Steve (10:40)
⁓ It's a bit like, it's one of the ways in which we indicate that we're not actually willing to talk about it. And when somebody is that honest with us, we need to work really hard to not appear to be overwhelmed. I can't cope. And so we are retreating from the conversation almost without realizing that's what we're doing.

Helen (11:10)
Thank you. Good to be alert to that. So let's make the assumption that this person has opened up to us a little bit about their heart. They've been honest about something that's going astray. ⁓ We have thanked them for that. We've managed not to minimise it or to run away. Or if we have, we've managed to circle back and say, I'd really would love to hear a little bit more about that. How do we progress a conversation in a way that is normal and natural?

not going beyond what our competencies might be and yet still being eager to serve the person in front of us.

Andrew (11:48)
Yeah, I think there are probably lots of different ways you can do that. It's going to be an important first thing to say. I don't I think we need to be careful that there isn't a kind of a script that we need to follow. ⁓ But to begin very openly, as I mentioned there, just about it with a kind of a tell me a bit more. You're wanting to know why it seemed important for them to to talk about it this time. ⁓

And I guess as they as they open up more, I'm always keen to kind of hear more about how this has been a struggle, maybe even get sort of some examples of how this particular struggle has been affecting the person, how it shows up in day to day life and begin to really kind of move from those sort of everyday examples that I can begin to really

If the person has had the courage to share this, then want to really, I'll honor that by really seeking to understand it well. I think I want to ask lots of questions and just hear more to allow them to share more about it.

Steve (13:02)
And part of that hearing more ⁓ helps us to overcome the tendency to assume that we understand without asking more. ⁓ It's easy to think that somebody else's description of a tendency towards envy is the same as our own awareness of that sometimes in our own lives, and it may not be.

make a quite difference. think your point Andrew about getting examples is key.

Andrew (13:34)
Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's helpful ⁓ in that it reminds us that I think one of the key characteristics we bring into these conversations is humility, not to make assumptions that I understand. And I think humility can deliver us from so many pitfalls in these conversations.

Helen (14:00)
Well, we humbly go through asking some questions, listening, getting some examples, those slices of life where we can really tease out maybe what's going on. And hopefully in that way, we can understand the person in front of us better. But I suppose another good question to be wrestling with is understanding our understanding and their understanding of themselves. Well, is that what we're shooting for? Is a better understanding of the situation our aim?

Or is that just a passing through point?

Andrew (14:33)
understanding is important, of course. But ultimately, if we come back to sort of where we've begun with the heart, what we're really wanting to understand more of is how the person is relating to the Lord in the midst of this struggle and then from there who the Lord is. And that begins to bring in his word.

So so I think it is it is, as you say, Helen, I think it's more than just kind of self understanding. It's it's getting right down to why is my heart relating to the Lord in the midst of this struggle? If it is something like pride or envy or something like that, what is it? What is it in the the midst of all of these different maybe examples you've shared or ways it pops up in your life underneath all of that? What is it?

⁓ What are the things I might be really wanting or fearing in the midst of?

Steve (15:34)
which I think it plays in helpfully to the necessity to tease things out in more detail because it can be very easy just to use a word or phrase, you know, I think I've got a struggle with envy. And actually, it's only as you begin to engage in conversation, get those examples that Andrew was talking about earlier, that it begins to emerge that actually it's more complicated than that, that there are other things happening.

actually as you and the person talk it through, they begin to discern that what really stirs them, what they really find difficult, isn't actually envy, it's sadness, ⁓ it's grief, ⁓ it's a sense of loss of things from the past. And that begins to emerge and then you've got a rather different heart issue.

to be engaging with. ⁓ And envy was kind of the surface presenting issue that the person was aware of. Because sometimes we can think that understanding is the person themselves understands. And then it's our job as the listener to understand what they already understand. But it's not like that. They don't understand. ⁓ And it's actually your questions ⁓ and your conversation together in a collaborative exercise.

that begins to draw things to the surface that were not clear to the person themselves until this conversation began. the relevance of that, as Andrew says, is that not to arrive at a point of analysis, I now have a kind of a framework of understanding, but that the understanding allows you then to know what it is that God would say to you.

Andrew (17:32)
So helpful. And a reminder, too, that in the midst of that process that Steve is describing there, we have the Holy Spirit working, moving, directing, leading, bringing light to our eyes, and covering the things that are deep and in darkness and bring them to light, which is just, you know, it's wondrous, really. ⁓ So, yeah, thank you. That was really helpful.

Steve (17:56)
And again, I keep coming back, I probably used it before on this podcast, I can't remember now, David Pallison's Velcro analogy, I find that so helpful that this bit of talking is like helping a person to understand their heart is a bit like uncovering the Velcro loops. So that then when you bring the word,

to a person, it is like the hooks just catch because they fit, you've understood enough to know which part of God's Word would seem most relevant and that, I'd say, different to the of the Teflon analogy of, you open up a bit of scripture and it just doesn't seem to penetrate, doesn't seem to catch, doesn't seem to be relevant to the person at all.

Helen (18:50)
really talking about here is how the process of change happens. We start with a presenting struggle, maybe something in the heart, we then ⁓ dig deeper to see what's under the surface there and find that it's actually far more complex.

than we had imagined. There may be far more things to repent of than we had imagined, but there might also be far more things that need comfort and compassion than we had imagined. And as those hooks, as you described them, or David Powlison first described them, get unearthed, we then have some really obvious places to go in Scripture. Is there more to the process of change than that? Before we look at maybe the specifics of Scripture, is there more to that process of change?

Andrew (19:37)
Yeah, ⁓ glad to hear what others think about this as well. But I just wonder. So at that, let's say in the conversation, we are beginning to hit on something where the person, where that hook is kind of happening. And I guess what we look for in the conversation then is a kind of a responsiveness from the person. Yes, yes, that's right. Yes, that makes sense. Yes, I hadn't thought about it that way before kind of thing.

And often sometimes that begins to reveal that that sort of connection has happened. And from there, I'm thinking, you know, if the Lord is sort of revealing that and his word is making a connection, we just want to encourage the person to respond to that, to the Lord, to by faith. We just want to encourage them to

talk it over with the Lord, pray whatever way we want to put it, but just have a real conversation with the Lord about what in a sense is now being uncovered, how he is speaking to it and seeking of grace. It's really one really saying is a response of faith, I guess. ⁓

Steve (20:55)
Yeah, well, the thing that occurs to me is that ⁓ these things don't happen in neat and tidy sequences, do they? It's not that I have this struggle, I uncover things that are going on in my heart. God's word speaks to that. I have a corrected heart and then I begin to ⁓

behave and speak in better ways, know, nice level. It's a funny mix of a muddle of that, isn't it? And I begin to grasp stuff that's going on. I hear something of what God would say to me and I begin to respond, I begin to do things. And the very doing of life differently then has a sort of, you know, bounces back onto the attitude and...

desires of my heart. So there's a sort of interplay between those, which is a sort of part of a longer ongoing process. I think the key thing that in a sense we're saying is how do we help the process of the word of God arriving in people's hearts? Because that's where it needs to get to. So often, you talked about the

The issue of change, Helen. So often, change happens at a surface level. ⁓ We change behavior ⁓ externally. ⁓ But Jesus is very clear that the place that the word needs to get to if it's gonna be free for us to heart, that's what he says in the parable of the sower. It's the good and noble heart that hears the word, receives it, and produces a crop.

Helen (22:49)
helpful. Thank you. There's so much in these conversations isn't there? I'm conscious that we might need to ground this. Let's give some examples, maybe some specific questions, some specific places in scripture, we might go some specific ways of praying. We've been talking about envy, let's stick with envy for a little bit of a scenario. Maybe someone comes up to us after church saying that they've noticed there's envy in their heart as they

look at other people in the congregation, they can see lives that they would want but they don't seem to have for themselves. You dig a little bit deeper in conversation about where that envy has come from, you discover that actually they've grown up in poverty, their childhood was very, very deprived. Take it from there, what kind of questions might you ask, what kind of places in scripture might you go, what kind of prayers might you pray, what other

topics would you want to explore?

Steve (23:51)
As you describe that scenario, Helen, I find myself jumping to ⁓ Mike Emlett's very helpful categories of ⁓ sufferer, ⁓ sinner and saint, ⁓ because it's clear that you could look at this person's past and present through any of those three categories. It's marvellous that they're bothered by this.

That's a sign of the spirit at work in them, God driving them towards a desire for his honour. so they're troubled by what they notice. They have known hardship and who knows what else was a part of their upbringing and their family life.

⁓ that involved a very considerable hardship beyond material limitations. And yet there is, and so that's the sufferer bit, but then also there is an expression of, in their relationships with others, that is ungodly, that is envious, ⁓ and that too.

they are right to be concerned about. So you've got any of those three, well, all of those three angles that you're going to want to engage with at some point. ⁓

there'll be a measure of wisdom about which you get to first.

Andrew (25:31)
Yeah, really helpful. As you were saying that, Steve, I'm thinking, you know, it kind of outlines what could be one or even more conversations that kind of, you know, thinking through those categories with a person. But I think that's really helpful to just sort of even to begin kind of early on to say, you know, I wonder, have you thought about the link between sort of your past and what you struggle with now?

they may not have made that kind of association. ⁓ But I think it's really important because it certainly adds mercy in terms of how then we help them to think about their heart, helps them to see that even to begin with them saying that have a father who pities his children, who understands, who has mercy. think of Psalm 103, their father pitting his children in their needs and indeed they have a savior who himself grew up in.

in deprivation and poverty, who knew what that was. So making that connection, I think, is really helpful. And yet, must say, I often find in conversations like this that people do want to talk about their heart. They do want to get to even beyond kind of the sufferer to the sinner. And I think from there, again, we could think.

Steve mentioned earlier about the link between sort of loss and. And that's that's kind of interesting to think about my mind was also going to sort of. There's sometimes a link between anxiety and envy, because, you know, envy in relation to material things can also be linked with fear about not having enough and.

the loss of those things and the deprivation of being deprived of those things. And Jesus makes that kind of link, I think, in the Sermon on the Mount where in talking about material things, he talks both about serving God and mammon and that kind of envy, but moves straight into talking about the kind of anxiety that we can face as well. And ⁓ again, you'll be led

won't you by really what seems to be sticking, seems to be making sense, where the penny seems to be dropping and where the light seems to be switching on, someone you'll be kind of guided and led by that, I think.

Steve (28:14)
And all the time, and Andrew, you've helped us think about that, hopefully with your examples there, you're trying to move from an essentially horizontal dimension. Envy is me looking at you, wishing I had what you have. And that's essentially horizontal. And you're trying to find ways

to introduce a vertical, to make connections with who God is to you, what sort of a father he is, how he has provided, ⁓ what really matters. And at some stage, again, depending on the detail of the person and the conversation, at some stage you might well end up in Psalm 73, which has a very clear and vivid picture of

of Asaph feeling envious of others who seem to be ⁓ strong and sleek and prosperous ⁓ and by implication ⁓ Asaph doesn't feel those things. And then you get this marvelous pivot in the middle of the psalm ⁓ when Asaph says that he entered the sanctuary.

⁓ understood and or remembered again the things of eternity and the things of God ⁓ and everything shifted for him at that point ⁓ and how a psalm like that might prove to be very valuable.

Andrew (29:59)
Yeah, ⁓ and I'm thinking too that as we offer these scriptures and these truths, sometimes we might read a Psalm like that with the person. Sometimes we don't don't quote scripture at all. You sometimes in a conversation, just it's shaped by these scriptures, ⁓ shaped by these truths, but we're not always necessarily quoting.

putting chapter and verse as we're as we're talking with someone, we may not even have a Bible with us, depending on where the conversation is. We've been quite remember references and things like that. And all of the time, I think we're checking in with the person, we're checking in with with how this is landing. How is this sounding? Is this making sense? Is this is this helpful? ⁓ And in that way, we're kind of.

We sometimes use the term kind of tracking with what the Lord is also doing in the person's heart. Why is he working? it helpful? Is the Lord using it?

Helen (31:04)
I think what you guys are both describing there is actually very different to how conversations sometimes go in local churches. Sometimes it's, well, you've already touched on the fact, Steve, that we can have a tendency to minimise when someone starts talking about their heart. We can have a tendency to run from the conversation, but we can also have a tendency sometimes at least to be a little simplistic. ⁓ We play what I sometimes call the equivalent of spiritual snap. We hear a kind of a buzzword.

and then we just find the most popular verse in the Bible that contains that buzzword. And we try and just match them together. And it's a bit like sort of sticking a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. Or I feel worried. Well, don't. I'm being impure. Well, don't. I am struggling to trust. Well, trust. And it doesn't go very deep. It's all very, very surface level. But I think what you're describing there is

You you go on an exploration with someone, you find out what's going on underneath. You then bring in who God is, what God is doing, not just a behavioural call. There is a nuance and a richness there. ⁓ You can go to the narratives to find a story. You can go to the Psalms to find an experience or an emotion that you can then talk about. And that's a very different thing to just finding a verse that says, this or do that.

Andrew (32:30)
a beautiful flexibility to that because the Lord uses his word in surprising ways. We can think that there's a kind of a the concordance approach. know, this verse can sticking onto this problem. And hey, the Lord, the Lord can sometimes use that, of course, you know, he can he can do as he will. But but as you say, Helen, there's this beautiful kind of sometimes surprising kind of

weaving and working of scripture into a person's life and their struggles in ways that are very beautiful but sometimes very unexpected to us and again not a kind of a script that we need to follow.

Helen (33:13)
We all do this. mean, parts of what we've been describing today feel very accessible. Others maybe feel a little bit more nuanced, a little bit more complex for someone to do in conversation. Is this something any of us can have a go at?

Steve (33:30)
Any of us can get better at it. ⁓ And to some extent, it's what's involved in being a good friend, being honest, being connected with people. ⁓ The notion that, what is a rich relationship? A rich relationship is sharing at the level of the heart, sharing our emotions with other people, ⁓ letting them know.

what's really going on ⁓ and another person being interested in knowing about what's really going on. And to the extent that all of us aspire to, all of us long for the experience of knowing and being known. It's where we're headed to, ⁓ knowing.

then I'll know fully as even as I'm fully known that that's the end point. So to the extent that all of us are drawn towards that, all of us will want to do it. Again, where the relationship is will determine what is appropriate and different people will be kind of more experienced at asking good questions, being interested, being a good

being a good companion in conversation. But wherever we're starting from, I think all of us can aspire to grow in this capacity.

Helen (35:08)
And of course, know, wisdom, as we've already said, will kick in. We don't push people to share. We don't try and drag people kicking and screaming into deep places in the middle of a coffee area if we can be ⁓ overheard. None of those things are good things to do. But conversation within friendship that is appropriate, that goes increasingly deep.

we are genuinely curious about one another and genuinely keen to help each other engage with the Lord. ⁓ that is indeed a beautiful thing. Final question, then. How does a church change? How is a church impacted if all of us go on this journey of wanting to speak wisely and well into each other's hearts, after of course having listened wisely and well to each other's hearts?

Andrew (35:56)
think, you know, for us as a church, it has happened in lots of different and sometimes very unexpected ways where a new member just comes into a group and begins to sort of talk freely and without sort of some of the inhibitions that those of us that have been in the group for longer have. And then I think

that sort of beginning, the one person sort of beginning to kind of share a little bit more openly does encourage others ⁓ to do that. And so you begin to just notice that sort of little infectious kind of change happening. ⁓ Certainly that's been been for us, I think one way that it has happened.

Steve (36:46)
Establishing an expectation and being clear what we are, what we're seeking to do as God's people together. I remember years ago, Helen, you wrote that really helpful real change course with Andrew Nicholls. And I remember years ago running it in our church with a group of people. And a woman in the group said, it's bizarre.

within two weeks in this group of people in doing this course, we are being more honest with one another than I am with the small group that I've been a part of for three years. And I thought it was a really helpful observation and it ties in with what you've just also been observing, Andrew, is that if we're not careful, we just lose the

the aspiration to openness ⁓ and all sorts of rules kick in, ⁓ which actually are more about self-protection ⁓ and politeness. ⁓ But where we create an anticipation, this is what we're here for. What we're here for is to engage with one and engage with the Lord ⁓ in honest ways as

brothers and sisters together in a family who have come to know grace and want to know more of it. And that involves remembering why we need grace, which is about honesty.

Helen (38:29)
Well Steve, as we bring things to a close, both of you thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, but Steve would you pray for us and our churches that we would be at places of increasing honesty and grace.

Steve (38:43)
Our Lord God, you pour out abundant grace to us. ⁓ But in a sense, to receive grace, first need to recognise our need for grace. The thoughts and attitudes of our hearts that are displeasing to you, that do need to change.

⁓ And as we become more aware of those, so we will run to you for mercy and plead with you for ⁓ growth that will enable us to become more and more like Christ. And as we do that together as a community, so we will be relationally rich and more glorifying to you.

So help us with exactly that we ask in Jesus name. Amen. ⁓