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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky moves-So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello, everyone. It's Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we're talking with Rob Spira. Rob Spira is a veteran director with an expansive career across film, television, and theater, known for the cult classic Leprechaun in the Hood.
and acclaimed TV credits including Criminal Minds and Supernatural. He served as resident director at the Tony Award-winning Actors' Theatre of Louisville where he directed over 75 productions. Rob is currently head of directing at Ride Back Rise, which is a fellowship program for people of color filmmakers. His published works include The Film and TV Directors Field Manual, Actors Write for Actors, Encore and The Field. He's also writing a follow-up book for filmmakers focusing on finding your
purpose in your work. was lots of fun getting to chat with Rob. I actually didn't realize he directed Leprechaun and the Hood had I known, I think I would have probably spent too much time talking about that film. But yeah, we got to talk about a lot specifically building a life around creative longevity, the discipline of daily artistic practice and why making your own work without waiting for permission might be the most sustainable path forward.
We also chatted about five-year plans, learning through B-movies and how joy can be your compass. So lots to dig in and really enjoy and listen to there. You can check out his website at RobSpera.com. His Instagram is at RobSperaOfficial. And I'll also add a link to his book, which you can buy. And I definitely recommend it. So here it is, a lovely conversation with Rob Spera. Hope you enjoy.
Rob Spera (02:00)
I was looking back at some journals recently of mine back to when I was like 22. And I was stunned to see that. And what I've written down is that the most important thing, as I of went off on this, launched off on this mission to become a filmmaker, that the most important thing I ever had to do was to make sure that I never lost my passion or joy.
Rob Spera (02:50.926)
for the war and that my pilot light would always stay lit because once that light goes out, I think we become useless. So my joy over the years has only intensified and my passion, you know, and there are lots of things about our business that can get you down. Not, no bad guys, just the process of trying to make a living and still stay in touch with yourself and your expression and your art. That can be a challenge. So without that passion growing, can get really...
lonely and dark.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to hear it. like you've kind of finding and maintaining that thread of optimism. So is this a recent practice of like reflecting, looking back at journals or is it this kind of a sense of continuity of self? Like what might've inspired you to look back at some of your writings in the past?
Always, you know, always trying to go back and, and, and because I what I work from regularly, are five year business plans that I started doing right way back when I was 22, just trying to find some way to navigate the industry, right? Because there's no real hierarchy, right? And there are no standards in that there are, you know, you, it's all subjective. someone could love my film, and they're right, and someone could hate it, and they're right as well.
So I wondered back at 22, how do you navigate a business like that, where there's no right or wrong and no hierarchy and you're only as good as your next film in many cases, as I've heard said. So I go back and the five-year plans for me are ways of keeping myself accountable for what my goals are and then expanding one.
Mishu Hilmy (04:31.662)
Awesome. Yeah. It seems like a kind of consistent practice. do think, yeah, I relate to the sense of like creating order out of constraints and structure. So it seems like five years is like a approach there. Do like, how do you, when you say plan, like what's that look like a five year plan? that intrinsic goals or these inputs or these outputs? Like what are you sort of, how do you indicate or mark like what five years looks like for you every five years?
I think it's important to first identify what your overall purpose is. So we can lose track of that. We know we've got to make a living. We know we've got to get jobs. But understanding what the point is. Why are we bothering to attempt to invite all of these finances that we need and all of these physical elements and people? And what are we doing? Why are we bothering to bring all these people together?
to tell a story for what purpose. So keeping yourself clear on what the purpose is so that you know that movies are a message machine, that we're trying to share our beliefs about the world and we're hoping to raise it up even one degree if we can. And so keeping my hand on the purpose is important. So that takes some introspection as well as then identifying the product that I'm gonna need in order to do that. So it's really.
product based that comes off of the, you know, being informed by my purpose. And then I designed product and then have deadlines and it all at the end of the day, it's not a wish list, right? I've got to actually make those products. So I've got to have the resources and or design them so they can be shot and put into the market in whatever way. And in the beginning, that was very small, right? You're working with what you have in your bank account.
or just what resources you have with your friends. And then over time, I just start to more traction. But I think if you're product oriented, you're always in demand. If you're looking for a job. So I essentially quit the business when I was 21 and said, you know what? I don't want to look for work anymore. think the only real transaction should be me generating work. So if I'm generating work, then I will always be in demand.
Rob Spera (06:52.91)
because you're generating work for your friends or for other people and you're learning at the same time. And I think we get too fixated on trying to get some kind of validation from the industry or the people who are there already. And what we need to be doing is putting out products.
I think I relate to that model where it's, it's just kind of like do what you can with what you have and just like keep, you know, the process of that output through that.
Yeah, yeah. And staying in control of that and making sure that you're always, I think of all the other arts, like I think of painters and I think of painting all the time. we're saddled with the problem of having to, even a small movie, a short film, cost you 10 to 15 thousand dollars if you allow it. Right. So there are those limitations, but we've got to find ways to work around that. And the
That's one of the reasons in my book I put these exercises built to their essence so that you can do them every day. They're kernels of the work that we do. We don't need to generate a feature or a short film in the meantime to get the education we need. So we're sharpening our eye, our choices, our tastes, our sensibilities, right, quickly on a daily basis, you know, with your iPhone.
Yeah, I like this again.
Mishu Hilmy (08:14.83)
Totally. Yeah. mean, that's, I like that exercise number one, cause it reminds me of kind of like, how do I do filmmaking on paper? But even that, like, if you need an actor, you can always frame yourself as an actor, just like design a frame, like practice that once a week, every other day, just like find a corner in your apartment. How can you make a subtext?
That's right. I how do you, how do you create that frame that is going to be that simple and yet so complex with basic resources. So I don't think, you know, we all kind of wait to make that big feature or get our first feature underway. And I think we've got to be looking at how do we sharpen our eyes on a daily basis so that we do get that, opportunity we're ready for.
Even kind of speaking to painting, like master painters, they might do hundreds or thousands of sketches before they put oil on canvas, you know, and it's like that spirit of how can you do that on the filmmaking side without, I'm sure you've seen it way more than me, but I still see people who like they've written one script and they're like, yeah, I'm just looking for two, $3 million. It's like,
Yeah. Good luck with that. Yeah, exactly. It's there's so many, because we got to master so many moving parts, right? Right. We have to have our hand in all of the elements of art. And then we are allowed to deal with the weather, you know, and physical limitations and personalities and ties. Now the painter, it's the brush, the paint, the can, and they still paint, you know, so much more than we shoot. that's why I was trying to do it.
I'm very young, I just put myself in as many opportunities as possible and created those. So while my friends were out looking for work, I was doing the work. I thought that was more important because over time my skill set has kept developing.
Mishu Hilmy (09:59.958)
Yeah, I really, in your sort of the film and TV director's field manual, I think you did speak to it rather discreetly, like the spirit of experimentation and even, know, anonymously or with a pseudonym. And I think the AFI still does it where it's like, there's works that you make are not meant for public consumption. And just like getting in that attitude of like no one, but maybe your cohort or your colleagues will see this, but to have that spirit of like, this is just to sharpen the saw.
And to really be able and willing to make a lot of big mistakes. And if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning. if we're waiting to do that big feature and then we start to make mistakes, we can collapse under that pressure. But if we're just kind of learning quietly and moving forward one day at a time and then developing that skill set in a very conscious way. I mentioned in the book that
that period of being movies that I did, those were, I was at my film school after film school, in which I was just able to take on those projects and I'd set a very specific course for the curriculum at every project. What I was working on, whether it was color, lenses, light, shadow, all those things. And then you can, and then you assess and then you learn from that.
How do you approach your sense of desiring challenge and desiring growth given that there are gatekeepers within the industry and you're not necessarily looking for work, but you want to make work. So how do you navigate your own desire for larger challenges for yourself that aren't just, well, you know, have friends who are actors and I have a camera and I have a crew and I can just shoot this in 12 minutes given that you've done probably hundreds of shorts at this point. how are you navigating growth in the resources that come with?
seeking challenges that almost look like you're still needing some degree of gatekeeping.
Rob Spera (11:48.558)
But I think at the end of the day, I think we've all got to acknowledge something important. And that is that we have the right. We have the absolute right as human beings to express ourselves as artists. We don't have the right to make a fantastic living at it. So we've got to decide somewhere in there who are we within that process, because we can, if we choose, we could just...
build a career out of, right? We have a job during the We shoot with our friends, right? Is that the filmmaker you want to be? Is that the artist you want to be? And then, you you start to figure out how much of this is vanity? How much of this is just pine-a-sky dreaming? And how much you actually wanted to direct or write. Now, clearly we all want a larger audience without a doubt. That's something you want to shoot for. If you're going to send a message out, want to reach as many people as possible. And I think that comes
with showing up at what my equation was, and it worked in my case, was that I never wanted to be on a movie set, and what I couldn't say to myself, and I would credibly, this is going to the Academy Awards. And I knew it wasn't. Those scripts I worked on had very low ceilings of expectations, but I showed up with an attitude and a mentality that attracted the best.
I have talent around. So you could tell the spike, if I was shooting a hundred thousand dollar erotic thriller, as they call them, I was, I was taking that the distance, right? And I did it, I did it knowing I wasn't, but bringing that kind of mentality to the work is what attracts better people, you know? And I think that's what I relied on is the substance and quality of my character on set.
right, is what I was on, is what was what worked. So, and I think you're trying to build that, that network of people and that stable of supporters that are going to do that. So if you're generating product, you're doing it at the highest possible level with the idea that you can still make mistakes, you're going to attract attention. Right. And, and that was the equation that that worked for me. I did, I don't put my, put my focus on, I've never made a decision in this year about money.
Rob Spera (14:15.852)
I never had decision about will this make me famous or successful. goal, and I set, as I designed my five-year plan, my goal was to do what my dad did. My dad got up out of bed every day, got in the train, and he went to work. When the bell went off, he came home and he spent the night with his family. And for me, I wanted that kind of, I wanted the same thing, but I wanted to be an artist during the day.
Right. Um, and so I think we've all going to make that decision for ourselves. We want to be famous. We need to be able to work at the studios. We're going to call our moms and say, I'm working at this studio or I'm making X amount of dollars, or are we trying to express ourselves? then we can build, that's why the five-year plan is important. Build a life that can support our, our, addiction to art, addiction to expressing ourselves. And if we, um, and the five-year plan is not just the
to wish this, like I said, is about identifying with clarity, who are you? What do you really want? And what are you hoping to give back? within that, you start to shape a life that, like I said, don't have the right to make a living at it, but we have the right to express ourselves and find where you fit into that process. it's really critical. can still be an artist and do something else and have a career.
It's, I'm not saying you shouldn't aspire to greatness, to Academy Awards, to world fame, working with the best people in the talent pools. I'm just saying be honest with yourself and figure out what you want.
you know, whether it's vanity or validation, those things are really out of your control. They're also extrinsic motivators. it's like, you know, most, most science does show that extrinsic motivation can do some short-term, you know, boost in energy, but in general, it'll just like burn you out and slowly like, you know, put out the flame of your plant life and create a poisonous resentment.
Rob Spera (16:20.398)
That's a great point. Yeah, well said.
So I'm curious for you, you know, there's a certain degree of like a point of view and ethics and even integrity with how you approach your work. What are some of the challenges internally that you find with the commitment to these sort of five-year plans? Like I imagine they're not without like self-doubt. So what's, what's been that, you know, kind of process like committing or doubling down on what you're sort of looking to focus on?
Yeah, self-doubt just comes with it. it's there all the time. It's never gone away, right? It's just part of the package. so for me, the thing that keeps me clean and on point is knowing what my purpose is. And knowing that in the book, there's an exercise, a couple of exercises I use. The one in the book I spend time with is the Fisher King Wound.
Because for years, as I'm trying to develop, hear teachers tell me, you got to find your voice, you got to find your voice, find your voice. I thought, okay, great. And so I set about, because most, as you read the book, you're probably seeing that a lot of what I do, it becomes mathematical almost. I want it to be accessible. I want it be simple, curable, small, but with mighty returns. I kept searching and came up with the, looked at the Fisher King.
which is the character from 11th century literature and the primary principle that has been kept in that character over the decades and hundreds of years is that he suffers from a non-lethal flesh wound, right? So he never stops bleeding. And for me, that's sounded a lot like art. And that, you know, we have issues as artists that we never resolve. Events have taken place in our lifetimes that have informed these
Rob Spera (18:13.506)
wounds and it could be very tiny, very minor. I'm not talking about anything traumatic necessarily. It can be, but these little wounds that have shaped us and we have never resolved them and we come to our work in an attempt to continually resolve and or purge those wounds. So the Fischer King wound, the first place I start to look in the beginning and then found an area and targeted it. And then that Fischer King wound actually
You can distill into a belief system that you have. For me, that belief system is love conquers all. And that didn't come from a positive place. came from a very dark place for me as a kid. Right. I experienced some things that made me believe at five years old that my family and my friends would not be there forever. Yeah. Simple little event. I'm at it. I'm at the dining room table with my family. All 15 of us ate together every night. Cousin, uncles, everybody.
And my dad was having a problem at work with a bunch of the other workers and they were all threatening to quit and they weren't being paid enough or something. at five years old, heard my dad said that one of the workers said, okay, we're threatening to leave. We're threatening to quit because this place will collapse without us. He said, how long will it take us, take this place, take our plant, our firm here to collapse, right? Before they found someone to replace us. Right. And the answer was stick your hand in a bucket of water and take your hand out.
The time it takes for the water to fill in where your hand was, that's how long it will take to replace you. And at five years old, everybody at the table laughed in knowledge like you are. for me, it meant, my God, that there's no true love. That's how I heard it. There's no, people won't remember you, you're gone, and that's it. But for me, I spent a good deal of my life looking at the world as if there was no true love. You couldn't rely on people, you couldn't depend.
to be there for you. And once I identified that, I could turn that into what helps me, right? I feel good about making movies about love conquers all. They can be very dark and twisted, but they're not hallmark hard by any stretch of imagination. But I get to prove whenever I work, whenever I have the opportunity to work, that love conquers all. And that helps me to resolve it in the moment. Has it ever gone away? No, I still want to make more and more. So when I compete for jobs,
Rob Spera (20:41.514)
in the industry. That's what I'm, what I'm selling that idea, love conquers all. It's hard to beat me in the room. Right. Very passionate place. I have to prove that in order to justify my existence. Right. And I think that's, that's how it all you're looking for. What I believe your voice comes down to. hear it all the time. What's your voice? My voice for me are my beliefs. What do I believe? So I know when I go to see.
big spike in the family, go to see his movies, you know what he believes, right? You get there and you know what you're going for, you know what arena he's going to be playing in. And so you learn a lot about that each time. And I think that's what it becomes most important in that respect.
sounds like having a clarity of what sort of your artistic principles are, what motivates you and what drives you in terms of how you want to express or communicate that can at least alleviate whatever sort of concerns. Now look, when I'm in a meeting, I don't need to that self doubt because I know this is how I'd approach the work, whether I'm the best match for this gig or this script or this project, this is how I would approach it. I'm pretty confident in how I would approach it and using say like the Fisher King.
as a technique or a tool to help clarify what are the themes or motifs that you tend to gravitate toward. Or if you're not even aware, you gravitate toward it. It's a really strong, mean, I was on the plane when I was reading the book and I was like, all right, I got to sit down and do this exercise when I get home. But I think it's a strong tool to help clarify. And I'm curious what your thoughts are because I'm big on, I have gripes with the phrasing of finding your voice. I do think you hear in every sort of class and
You know, at Q and A, students asking questions. I think it's like a passive kind of dictum or commandment versus I think in the spirit of experimentation and even a bit of anarchy of like, forget about finding your voice, making your voice. And I still think the Fisher King exercise helps you make your voice. If you know, these are the themes I'm drawn toward, then why don't I write 10 short films that are boom, boom, boom, rather than, I don't know, I just gotta find it and hope.
Mishu Hilmy (22:44.902)
I stumble on it a bush passively. It's like, no, you can manufacture, can make your voice, whether it's contrived or not, doesn't quite matter. You're at least playing.
Yeah, it's a cute phrase, know, find your voice, but it doesn't, it's not instructive. It's, you're shooting in the dark. Right. And I wanted to have an equation that would bring me to a point and a practice and a technique. And then that's probably going to evolve over time in some ways as well. You know, it's proactive though.
Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. I think, that's the risk and that's why, you know, your exercise is instructive and finding other ways to play with that rather than the hopes of like, honestly like imitation is a form of discovery, but it's, still leans more toward passive replication rather than the courage to like, just make some choices and play with it.
Yeah.
Rob Spera (23:34.702)
That's right. And take the riff.
Do you have a favorite Maxim currently from your manual or I imagine they probably float in and float out.
I think, know, there are a lot of, you know, have a lot of favorite ones that helped me a good deal. I mean, they're all still, they're what I think of as, I mentioned a book that, know, the, here's my students have asked me to recommend books to them. I always, I always come up short because I have all those textbooks, they're all on my shelves and they are largely unread because I get a chapter or chapter and half into it.
And I just, they're so dense and so unbeatable that the ideas don't make their way into the work. And I wanted to be able to distill them to their essence so they're...
practical applications. you then can have bigger results down the road with them. And it should be, it's a field manual in your back pocket. Right. Just like the DPs. I was always jealous of the DPs. have their little field manual that they refer to. And I want to have something in my back pocket that you can keep there and refer to it. But the one that I took, some of the technical ones, I think they are all my favorites, but the one that I think is the most important is the very first one.
Rob Spera (24:48.896)
And that's why I put it there. Be kind. Yeah. We are, that's, we're supposed to be telling stories about the fragile human experience. We're supposed to be telling, and to capture that, you know, fragile essence of what it means to be a human being on this planet takes a lot. And you've got to be treating the people next to you. Yeah.
with great kindness and with great humanity and it starts there. And if it starts there, it's what ends up on the screen and helps. really have a, I've also, what's kind of shifted in terms of my goals over the year is that I really look at my work now. Every time I do work, there's an opportunity to just work with a lot of other informed.
human beings, the results, I can't control them. I want to just do my absolute best. But I'm mostly there to treat these human beings the way I want to be treated and create a little community that comes up right together with what you're about to watch. And it's a great way to spend your life. It's a great way to be inspired, you know, because you open the door to communication when you're treating people with respect.
They start taking risks in their work. They start to come to you with ideas that are sometimes off the wall and fucking perfect. Right. But when you work out of fear, people are not going to take risks around them. They're not going bring you that crazy idea they had in a dream and for fear of being silly, fear of being seen as silly or not serious, but being kind, we start there. Right. And then everything human flows.
from it. And I just don't want to be putting out, I want people to come to work and want to be there and everyone should feel like they are part of the process.
Mishu Hilmy (26:42.604)
Yeah, I mean, those are, think, lovely sentiments and very, you know, this level of integrity. Because just because, you know, folks are telling stories about, you know, human empathy and kindness doesn't always mean the set's going to be that way. think Maureen Ryan's book, Burn It Down, is a great expose in like all the different, you know, toxic sets. So I think, yeah, that's the number one spirit. And yeah, it's like, this is an exciting and very difficult medium. So why not?
create a safe space, a safe set so people can feel courageous to take those risks. I think I directed some work with, you know, 10 or 15, you know, teenagers and kids, you know, nine to 12 or nine to 14. And the big thing was like, look, if you're on a playground and there's broken glass all over, you're not going to be running around. You're not going to be playing. You're not going to be having a fun time. like using that metaphor as the same goes for when you're acting. Like if the set isn't safe, you're just, you're just going to stand there.
You're gonna move in one direction or the other. It's so true. Yeah, that's a great analogy. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, yeah, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. And then like how, like, how do you deal with, you know, the dry spells of the industry, right? You might be a little, you have some key, have some projects, just wrapping, et cetera, et cetera. And then, it's three years. it's one year. it's five years. Like how do you navigate the kind of the natural droughts and dry spells of, of working in the media, these mediums or this industry?
think that's a great point and a great question because we all have them. I don't care who you are, we go through cycles which we are. We're working for three years and then we're not working for two. Or we're working for four years and we're not working for three. And it all comes down to partly the quality of your work, but in large part too, you had a rush of new clients, new network contacts or studio contacts or producer contacts.
Rob Spera (28:32.702)
And that generated a bunch of work based on a project you did. then, you know, three years of work comes from that. And then those people have moved on and things have changed and the times have changed. So you're having to reinvent yourself. I think that's one reason the five-year plan helps us navigate that. But what gets me through those down periods is the work that I have, I'm doing for myself. The projects I'm going to definitely shoot and,
They may be a short film, they may be a documentary. There's some way for me to get up every day and call myself a director. And those projects, in some cases, are the most fulfilling because it's you and two or three of your friends in the backyard, right? Discussing the work, shooting, arguing, shooting it two different ways. You're actually playing at it. And those opportunities are great. And that's what the work is what saves me through those dark periods.
They can become dark because you can easily begin to doubt yourself. You don't have it anymore or things changing and I shouldn't, I don't see a future, but I think the real key is to continue to do the work and remind yourself that you do this, that you're good at it, right? That you have a future, that you have a possibility and stop relying on external forces or external stimulation to inform you about your value.
You've got to convince yourself through the work itself. And that's how you improve and that's how you stay fresh and better. And then things turn, you know, that product that you're putting together or putting out there is going to generate new contacts, right? But it's not, I'm not taking any of that personally and just, and also being very, very honest with yourself. You know, that's why the five-year plan is great because it, you know, I teach, I teach the five-year plan to my students and then.
It's for me also a way to maintain, you can be honest with yourself and you can check in and say, I have these goals for three years. I haven't achieved any of them. What happened? Right. And then you can kind of look back and you'll get, here's what I did. Here's what I didn't do. How can I make this better? How can I move forward? Because there is not a business person on the planet that would invest a nickel in a business for a minute without
Rob Spera (30:57.55)
and yet we continually as artists, we throw, we give the art our best years. We sacrifice family, we sacrifice finances, and we never demand a return. Now that return can just be education, it can be satisfaction, it could be money, but it's got to be, we've got to identify, what am I getting from this?
And how am I going to get that? if we don't approach it from that point of view, we all here, it's show business. get it. But we really got to come down to the nitty gritty of building a plan and then executing, adjusting, fixing, moving forward. There's nothing so complex about it that we can't fix it and learn and move forward.
I think it sounds like it's a way to really just set intentions. And even within the five-year plans, you say there's within it adjusting and fixing it too. So while you're riding the ride, you can go, actually, I might need to shift focus, but it really seems like an exercise in setting intention versus I imagine you might've been there. I've definitely been there in the theater world of just like compulsively doing the same behavior of like, I'm just going out for auditions. I'm just auditioning. And then there's no real vision. There's no real vision behind it.
Yeah, yeah, it can be really limiting, right? Without that plan and a way to value or judge, are you making progress or not? And what can I do differently if it's not working in that way? And I know talented, talented people who continue to approach it in the same way, not be successful and expect some kind of different return from it. they've got to be honest with themselves. Okay.
I think even if you are marginally talented, I think if you approach it, right, in terms of generating work and improving, getting better over the years, you have the possibility of building a career, right? And increase your skill set. And I don't think it's that when we apply all the right tech.
Mishu Hilmy (33:08.076)
Yeah, totally. It's like, it's creating that space for doing work with a goal in mind rather than just, whether it's passive or unintentional, just hoping the thing you want to happen happens rather than like, if you have something that you're set on. Also, I believe defining it somewhat broadly and doing it more based on input. You want to make a movie, well, you need to write every day or you need to find someone who writes great scripts. But if you're not looking for that, you're just like,
Well, just want to make a movie, without a daily or even intermediate steps, you're going to be kind of lost.
Yeah, yeah. That, know, and I believe too that, you know, if you're not many careers, I've seen, I work with a lot of students at Film Institute and outside. see a lot of students who consider themselves writer directors. Right. And, and they're waiting to write that grade script in many cases, and they're not writing. They don't write regularly. They don't write pleasurably. And it's years before they generate a product. I say, listen, I understand you fancy yourself a writer.
But right now, you're not demonstrating those behaviors. why don't we, you keep writing, you keep learning and growing, you keep getting better at it, but in the meantime, you've got to build a stable the writers to work with. Because you can't do it alone all the time. And if you're not generating the product, I know you fancy this idea of what a writer director is in the cache that comes from that. it's not necessarily, if you're not generating products,
The real writers that I know can't wait to get to their laptops. Yeah. And for me, that's a crazy thought, right? I'm not, I'm not a writer naturally. have to, I have to forge my way through it, but there are people who do it and they do it regularly to do it out of joy. And I think we can all get there at some point, right? I'm not saying stop writing. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm saying keep writing, but if it's going slowly in the meantime, get some other product from some other writers because
Rob Spera (35:12.526)
If you want to generate work, you're going to have multiple projects that you're juggling all the time to actually increase your chances.
even like for you, so writing could be a challenge. Like where did your field manual fit within your five year plan and how did you go about writing it? Cause it seems like not quite filmmaking, but within the world of it. what, where did that fit within the sort of annual plan and what was your process for writing?
I wanted to, know, especially because my students kept asking, you know, and I thought I wanted to able to provide them with something that I'd say, yes, this will change your work. This will change your filmmaking. so that was something I'd wanted to do for a while. The way the business has been moving in the past, you know, five years or more, and my own five-year plan needed to do a shift, right? I've taught since I was like,
22 or 23, I think, and I always get joy from it. I wanted to do that more. And as the business had been shifting, I decided to shift from doing scripted material to doing documentary. Because the documentary, so the shift I made basically on paper is to focus on my teaching. I want my ideas to be out there in the general public. And I also wanted to do documentary work because, like we were just saying earlier,
We can't ignore the shift in the industry. I don't know where it's going. I don't have that kind of skill, but I do know that it's getting harder and harder and harder to make movies and television work. So doing a documentary where you're really relying on the IP and the, the intellectual property and the, the self, the ideas that are self promotional. the book is all part of that right loop. So I focus more on my, my teaching and, and, and the.
Rob Spera (37:05.518)
and the subject matter that really interests me or excites me. I also recently took on a job with Rideback Rise. Rideback is a production company, big one, and Dan Lin, who now at Netflix founded this fellowship program for young, not even young, people of color who are mid-career as writers. And they basically, in this fellowship, they come in pitching a project that they want to make, 15 are chosen.
those 15 are developed over the course of the year and then introduced to the industry in a really comprehensive way. is only its second year in existence and I think 50 % of the projects last year are being made. Right. It was features, TV series. So the success rate is really high. And the, me, it's the first place I've been where I really believe the people running the program.
have the best interest of the students involved. And I went there, I was invited in to visit and with the thought of perhaps working with them and within a few hours I said, okay, I get it, I'm here. I want to be a part of this, I believe in what you're doing. And these fellows bring in 15, they each get about $40,000 to help them pay their bills over the course of the year. And in addition is,
there are funds to make short films, there's a concept. I don't mind contributing to that. I don't care what you pay me, I just want to be here, I believe in this. That's kind of the other direction. I want to spend my time working with filmmakers who are really truly dedicated and do that in my classes, are also more kind of mid-career professionals as well. And that's all part of the next sweep, my own plan.
That always reminds me of maybe like the sort of campbellion Joseph Campbell hero journey element of like, can either become a tyrant or a teacher and it's like choosing, you know, to use your knowledge to be of service of people. So like, how do you balance your own sort of general creative aspirations with the teaching career and maybe also the service career? Like, because do you have the daily directing practice? Like what's your daily practice look like given there might be other intrusions with say teaching at AFI or other kind of.
Mishu Hilmy (39:34.008)
service gigs.
Yeah, it's the because I'm basically immersed in the ideas every day. Yeah. At least there's at least five, six days a week in which at least three or four hours of the day are about the work. Yeah. The technical aspects of it, right? The creative aspects of it. I'm developing something and so
Great joy comes from that and that can be whether I'm in a meeting, right, trying to sell a project, I'm developing a project, if I'm teaching. So that's what keeps my pilot life lit. And I never look to specific jobs or money to like that pilot life. That's really, that's a dead end. It just doesn't really give you.
what you need, right? Enjoy the work that does it. And so that is investing in doing the work every day. And then there's, you know, I get a lot from my students as well, right? As I'm always really open to how they, because the industry changes every 20 minutes and their sensibilities, their tastes are informing me. It's a great way to stay passionate.
excited. Wonderful. And I'm curious, you given the years of teaching, have there been like surprises or changes or is it pretty consistent when you do see youth culture? what, yeah, I'm trying to ask like what has been surprising or not surprising every cohort or every, you know, five, 10 years when it comes to new students, is there consistency or is there something that fundamentally evolves over time?
Rob Spera (41:15.736)
Yeah, think, you know, I think it's always changing. And I think it's, it's, it's, it's really a mistake not to acknowledge it. Yeah. Try to understand it and then make it work because whatever those students are coming in with, they believe it, they feel it. Right. It's my job to try to get a sense of that and then deliver my curriculum in a way that's going to lay in. So I
I have always, from the very beginning, about the first 45 minutes or hour of my class is spent taking attendance. And in that period, I'm talking to them. I'm asking them questions, right? And at first they giggle and laugh, but, and even some of them are adults. say, when's last time you talked to your mother? When's the last time talked to your dad? You have family, do you, where they live? When you get that sweater, that you buy it for yourself. So that, what I'm hoping they...
begin to feel is that I see them. They're not going to learn from me. They're not going to take me seriously. They're not going to take it to heart until they know that I see them. And sometimes I just use, they come in with a cup of coffee from Starbucks. say, how much is that coffee? You know how much that costs over the course of a year. And it's fun. It's a thing you can do, but I'm really trying to kind of pierce the veil about that kind of rigidity, especially around.
If you're talking about generating creative, human, vulnerable, fragile work, you've got to get your people there with you. If you're not helping to break that down, I don't care if you spend 10 hours with them discussing all of the techniques you want, it's not going to land in their hearts where it needs to land. So I've got to figure out a way to touch the human being first. And then the education begins.
Right. Until then it's really tricky. I think the, the, despite all the changes, right. And you hear, you hear lots of things, you know, this and that over time, but I think the, if you look back all the generations, right. Prior had the same complaints about the generation before. Right. And it's all, they're all the same rumors and good shade. Yeah. And some things are legitimately different each time, but we have to acknowledge it.
Rob Spera (43:40.928)
and work with it. So that's where that period before I start teaching each day, each time is really helpful in breaking down the walls and getting to the truth, which is what we're all trying to do.
So yeah, I think that's really sort of like the strong approach to like being there for your students, right? To like see them versus just to, know, brute force shape them. So like, I just get a sense of like really cultivating curiosity, which I think is kind of, it's uncommon. like, is this just an ethos or just how have you developed that sense of curiosity over time? Cause it does seem like you could easily be at a position of like having dictums and really.
You know, well, I've been in the biz and I know how it's done, but it sounds like you're not quite of that school of thought. like, where does this kind of curiosity come from or how do you nurture it?
I mean, I think I was partly always curious. but, you know, over time you begin to realize that you are not the smartest person in the room, at least me. Right. I have proof, right? I know I'm not the smartest person in the room in most cases. And I like that. no longer, I try to be the smartest person in the room. And I realized that there are, you know, I've seen a lot and done a lot and traveled a lot, but
I still only barely own a small fraction of what it means to be a human being. And I know from my point of view, I grew up, I'm a white male Italian, grew up in New York. That's what I saw. And so I'm sure I'm filled with all those filters and I know I don't know it all. I know that if I want to learn and get better, I've got to listen. So listening becomes really important.
Rob Spera (45:26.126)
I'm going to improve or see things. So I really make a point of nurturing that, listening to people and understanding that there's so many ways to do it, so many different points of view. You can just keep the door open. So that's why when I'm shooting, one of the maxims is to listen to your film because we all show up, we've prepped, we believe we know what the movie's about.
And then when we show up, though, that's when everything comes together. And that's when you have to listen because the movie will start talking to you. The movie will tell you, no, I'm not that, I'm really this. And we have to adjust. And if we don't adjust, right, that's where all of it's coming together immediately. We want it to kind of capture in a bottle and exploit because that's what will play on the screen. And if you're not, if you're trying to just force your way in, you're trying to make something
happen that's not there, nor what is happening, it'll never reach. So it takes a great deal of patience. And it's just a lot like, you know, raising kids, not your kids. What you want, right? But you're the one to set some kind of clear values at heart. And then they've got to take it from there, you know? So I really put a lot of hope in process and leaving the door open to
can talk to.
Rob Spera (46:52.878)
to the artists working around me. It doesn't mean I'm prepared within an inch of my life. think I point out in the book, I have always show up with three to five versions of a scene. And the most I ever did was 16 because I was showing up to my first television gig. Yeah, I was on an airplane, first television gig, right? And first morning, first day, first scene, it's a scene in a plane with, I don't know, six and a half, seven pages of dialogue and nine characters.
And the showrunner told me, careful because the star of the show has a, he likes to put directors through the ring. So I made a point of, I came up with 16 versions of the scene because there's 16 seats on the plane. And I did that because I needed to be prepared for, so preparation and he challenged me, of course, and I was able to solve the problem immediately. So preparation is key, but once you pay it,
then you have the great freedom to improvise. And then you're able to absorb all the ideas and you know how they work and you can manage them and put them into play. So you're really a conductor at that point and you're listening and adjusting as it all happens. And I think that's really where my desire to listen and to be curious has developed because I think you get the best work out
Similar to preparation, like, you know, it's important to be able to listen and improvise and be present in the moment on set. But when it comes to preparation, how do you set, how do you go about setting expectations with your crew, with your cast before you're even on set of like what the story is, what the goal is? Like, how do you like to go about setting expectations? So when people are there, they're at least aligned on what.
what the story is telling versus someone thinks it's a farce. The other person thinks it's a drama. Like what's, what's been successful for you when it comes to that pre-work or that.
Rob Spera (48:47.822)
Yeah, I think there are some situations in which you need to attempt to communicate the world of the show. think the best way you can do it is on the page because all those, as you move from comedy and drama have the same basic building blocks. The extent to which someone will go to achieve an objective mostly dictates whether it's comedy or drama. Right. In a comedy, man might
put on a dress to get a job because they're only hiring women. And that's what makes it a comedy. Same thing, we move from naturalistic comedy to broad comedy to farce. And what's happening as we cross all those thresholds, we're really seeing the objectives and the obstacles, the level of pursuit. So farce is where it goes furthest.
And so I think if you're able to capture that, at least on the page or in your shooting script, and then write in the actions of your characters, you can inform a great deal. The danger is, once we start talking comedy or drama, we start to have preconceived ideas as to what comedy is. So people start playing for laughs. And what you want them to do is play the scene. Play the objectives and obstacles. Play the scene. Play the drama.
And in many dramas, there'll be comedy as well, by necessity. So you play the moments and let the comedy find itself. If you don't, you're going to your audience on set and it won't make it past the lens. That's really tricky. And you kind of want to give information to the actor, but I like to give room for them. Like I said, really well prepared. I might go into a rehearsal and I'll give them the script to read.
obviously, I'll try not to answer too many questions because I want them to bring themselves to the work. So I might, if they're talking about specific scene and the emotions in the scene, I'm going to paraphrase what they say. So they say, I think I'm angry at this guy in the scene. And they say, so you think you're angry. And they get to say, well, you know, not, I'm really angry, but you know, he he did cheat on me. I see you. So he cheated on you. That's right. That's a good point. Let them.
Rob Spera (51:13.39)
find their way to it and then you give them the blocking on set so that the blocking is going to inform the beats physically. So you're talking very little about the absolute quality of the moments. Let the actions and the blocking inform, right? We're not directing actors. We are informing them about where this is going and let them, because most film scenes are two minutes long or three minutes long, right? They're not four hours of King Lear.
It's two minutes. They get it. Right. Yeah. See interrogation. They've seen a lot of these things. They've done it a lot in life. They don't need your help. Right. Given the blocking to inform what you believe is happening here and those that blocking is going to inform the moments, the beats, right. And, then the actor fills in the blanks. Right. Yeah.
Yeah, I was thinking director is a bit of a misnomer. kind of wish it was a more on the French side. Realizatour, you know, we realize a vision, a dream.
Yeah, I agree. We agree. Yeah, we got to allow it to happen.
Yeah, by the way.
Mishu Hilmy (52:18.892)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's like the joy of it. Cause I think I had much to grin around the, like being obsessed with a medium that is very difficult to do. It's not like we can, you know, paint a painting or write a novel. Those are just you alone with your instruments, but this is a medium that requires collaboration and for whatever reason, upbringing experiences, we're drawn to it, which is, Hey, I love what I love. like what I like. But I think, yeah, to
to make it less about what is the sort of the capital D directing. I should be yelling at people and talking for 20 minutes. Like I don't, I don't agree with that. But again, it goes back to like ego validation or vanity of like what it looks like to be on set versus what is probably more conducive. I liked in your book, it's like, yeah, two or three takes like that. Just try to do it like two or three takes and move on.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, you know, students or young directors read the newspapers and they see that, you know, this director's shot a hundred takes and that was shot 40, but that's much less to do about how you make a movie and more to do with the excesses of our industry at the highest level. Yeah. And if you try to do 40 takes on your first movie, you're going home. Yeah.
That'd be mutiny, true mutiny. Yeah. I have two questions. The first one is like, how do you actively inject subversion or risk taking within your work, whether it's within the content or your approach or your point of view? Like what level of intentionality conscious or unconscious do you actively seek, you know, risk or subversion?
think it's a process, right? That's one of the reasons I do three to five versions of every scene. Three or five looks at the entire movie because you're most likely that first time is something that's really safe or something you've seen in somebody else's movie and you love it because you saw it and you know it works. And then because you don't even remember, you just know that it works. So giving yourself the room to go from those very
Rob Spera (54:18.968)
kind of traditional approaches to the scene and then keep working through till you have a better understanding of what's at the heart of the scene and you keep digging until you find something that feels more fresh and what you are. Then you have to get to the point where you find a version that is actually entertaining and then you have to do one that's never been seen before. so for me, I'm only successful when I do it right.
with that kind of a process because I'm doing the work. It's in front of me. I can't sit back and say, wow, what would be completely different and what would be subversive, right? Or what kind of risk can I take? Then you're doing it out of context and you're just trying to be subversive without understanding, right? All the structure behind this that works and how can I reinvent or subvert what's on the page.
right, or in the entire film. So it's got to come through the actual, you know, nitty gritty digging through the piece itself on a granular level and on a macro level as well. So we're always digging, but that process has always been the most successful for me. And you know, I think you're lucky if you get to the point where it's simply just entertaining, right? And answering all the questions and it does what it's supposed to do. And it's fun and entertaining.
But then the next step is gotta be okay now, that's good. But what takes this to a whole other level, right? And I think that's really important.
I think that's a great approach. Like the many passes, whether it's through your prep work, your shot listing, or your revising of like how many passes, whether it's the entertainment pass, the punch up pass, the subversion pass. But I think the spirit of like, I am not doing this out of invention. I am doing it through the organic context of this piece in it of itself. And I think that's a really good sort of frame because yeah, invention is just manufacturing and then it becomes wanton, right? Like.
Mishu Hilmy (56:23.916)
Why do we have this move? Where did this scene come from? You know, it is cheeky, it is subversive, but it's sort of wanted and manufactured. I well put in terms of the approach. And then the last question is just, you know, given how uncertain the industry is or just creating in general or life in general, like how have you been staying motivated either with your work, the industry, the biz, or just being a human in the 21st century?
Mishu Hilmy (59:07.084)
Lovely. Well, Rob, thank you so much for sharing and getting to talk. This is really fun. Lots of fun getting to meet and talk.
Mishu Hilmy (59:23.502)
Yeah, beats it, beats it
Mishu Hilmy (59:30.84)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. All right. Creative prompt. Here we go. This one is about doing some micro reps, I don't know, once a week.
Do a 10 second scene on your phone where your only goal is to evoke a specific emotion using framing and movement. No need to share it. Just assess what worked. Give it a shot. Create a mood. Just 10 seconds. I don't know. Move some lights around. Create a tableau. Maybe put it on a tripod and be an actor. No pressure. Just 10 second little scene on your phone. Give it a shot. I'll also give you another one inspired by what Rob and I were talking about. One of his prompts and exercises from his book.
Frame it so just pick a random corner in your home and design a one-shot Frame it light it and try and tell a visual story using objects and space no dialogue. No performance Just create a frame so there it is two little prompts for those who like directing or image making and give it a shot All right. Thanks for listening this far and Yeah, try a buying Rob's book. It's an easy read 70 wonderful maxims that I'll I keep it on my desk and I've been rereading them throughout
the week. Alrighty, have a good one.