Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00;00;00;06 - 00;00;03;05
Stacey
Candy.
00;00;03;07 - 00;00;07;20
Speaker 1
A podcast about cults, crimes and killers.
00;00;07;20 - 00;00;12;27
Unknown
Oh. They.
00;00;13;07 - 00;00;29;27
Stacey/Dori
Hey, everybody. It's, Candy. Okay, that was a solo. We have two people today as our special guests, as an addendum to our Ed Gein episode from last week. We have the creator, director, producer. And
00;00;29;27 - 00;00;37;11
Stacey/Dori
My brother Alex. Master on today to answer questions about Ed Gein.
00;00;37;11 - 00;00;49;26
Stacey/Dori
He's an expert, and we have the famous author Adam Rakoff, who wrote horror books. He wrote a horror book based on Ed Gein. Am I correct about that, Adam? Based on the person again.
00;00;49;26 - 00;00;59;02
Adam
But I wrote a book about slasher movies and a lot of these great slasher movies. They take a lot from both the Ed Gein case and the Ed Gein legend.
00;00;59;17 - 00;01;00;11
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. So.
00;01;00;11 - 00;01;19;27
Stacey/Dori
he can answer our questions about how Ed Gein got into the pop culture, as all these different characters that we had mentioned in the other episode. So without further ado, we've got we've got Dory. My partner in crime, and we've got Jack John Mega. I have to say it like that now. Dory. So we're ready.
00;01;21;09 - 00;01;27;02
Unknown
I'm outside my window. No.
00;01;27;04 - 00;01;32;15
Speaker 1
It's all Iranian.
00;01;32;17 - 00;01;39;15
Unknown
When the wind blows, I feel pain.
00;01;39;17 - 00;01;45;22
Speaker 1
I mean, I mean, no, doctor.
00;01;45;25 - 00;02;06;21
Unknown
But I'm not still. A Protestant like that. Oh. I mean, ever since,
00;02;08;04 - 00;02;08;15
Speaker 1
In the.
00;02;08;14 - 00;02;08;25
Speaker 1
In the.
00;02;08;25 - 00;02;15;20
Unknown
Oh, 00000.
00;02;15;20 - 00;02;35;04
Stacey/Dori
So, you know, kicking it off. Alex. Yeah. From the show, first of all, I want to hear a little bit about your experience working on the show, working on the Ed Gein case. If you met any, did you meet anybody who knew Ed? I believe you did. But did you meet, like, the people in the town?
00;02;35;04 - 00;02;39;09
Stacey/Dori
Like, how were you in court? Like, did you go to the town? Tell us about that experience.
00;02;39;12 - 00;02;41;15
Alex
Absolutely. Yeah. It was,
00;02;41;15 - 00;02;55;11
Alex
I was working at a company in Chicago, and I was, assigned the project. There was an episode of the A&E series biography. Was initially, they wanted me to do a show on John Gotti. The, you know, Teflon Don, but that fell apart.
00;02;55;11 - 00;03;23;19
Alex
I don't remember why. And then they gave me the the at game case. I didn't know who that was. I had no idea. So I looked it up and, you know, I found it fascinating. And the thing I found most fascinating about the game case wasn't really the crime. It was the, the legend, the, you know, the how he had just been, all these characters from these movies, that I had seen growing up, were, were based on him.
00;03;23;19 - 00;03;42;22
Alex
The three that we talk about in the show are psycho, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and Silence of the lambs. So I did my job, which is, you know, trying to find people out there that were involved in the case. And I produced this in early 2000, in the cases in 57. So I was certainly fortunate that there were still people that were alive.
00;03;42;24 - 00;04;15;10
Alex
And that was, I think, the thing that really sort of blew my mind. And what makes it such a special project, which is this guy is an inmate, is in many ways, and we talk about it in the show is is he there's like the myth of him. He's like the boogeyman in many ways. And to be able to meet people that actually spoke to the boogeyman that had him in his house, that worked with them, that had lunch with them, that some in the streets and interacted with him was just such a fascinating, and, rewarding experience.
00;04;15;10 - 00;04;33;27
Alex
The case took place in Plainfield, Wisconsin. I live in, I was living in Chicago at the time, so it's just a quick drive, across the border. So yeah, I was in Plainfield. I was there several times to small, tiny town. You wouldn't think anything of it. It is like a million tiny little towns in Wisconsin, barely a main street, barely anything really.
00;04;33;29 - 00;04;53;14
Alex
And, Yeah, it was it was a terrific experience. And, you know, like I said, it was these it was this pop culture connection. I think that really drew me into the game story. I mean, I, like my, my, my partner and good friend Adam. I, I don't like horror movies. I've seen a lot of them.
00;04;53;14 - 00;05;11;27
Alex
I it was growing up, you know, it was kind of a rite of passage, to have to watch all these fucking movies, like, you know, Nightmare on Elm Street and and, you know, Halloween and all these movies. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but I knew I had to watch them, because otherwise, you know, you're. I was, this was the 80s.
00;05;12;00 - 00;05;35;15
Alex
But The Texas Chainsaw Massacre in particular, obviously, it's a horrifying movie. And it's scary and it's well done and it's great and all the stuff. But there was one aspect of the movie that made it that just left an imprint on me, and that just scared the hell out of me. Unlike other horror movies. Adam, you commented it on in the show.
00;05;35;17 - 00;05;47;09
Alex
I think do you remember what it is? What is it about Texas Chainsaw Massacre that creep me out? That a certain fact that, you know, in the beginning of the film that creeped me out more than any other horror movie, what do you think it was?
00;05;47;09 - 00;05;53;14
Adam
I'm going to assume it's the, it's the title card that says it's a church. Based on a true story.
00;05;53;17 - 00;06;06;20
Alex
Exactly. Yeah. And that is the you know, when you see that and you're like, Holy shit, Leatherface walking around the giant chainsaw, how the hell is this story based on a true story? And then you start doing research
00;06;06;20 - 00;06;33;28
Alex
and there's psycho and there's Buffalo Bill. I mean, these are some, you know, some profound characters in the history of cinema, that, you know, I've left an imprint on and so many people's minds, and it's all attached to this, all linked back to this one little unassuming five foot six, you know, little man living in Plainfield, Wisconsin, nowhere, Wisconsin in 1957.
00;06;34;00 - 00;06;43;11
Alex
How the hell is that possible? And just being able to unpack that and talk to people that actually knew him and interacted with them, and especially those journalists, two that came to the town and,
00;06;43;11 - 00;06;47;17
Alex
it was an amazing, experience professionally and personally.
00;06;47;17 - 00;06;57;10
Unknown
You.
00;06;57;10 - 00;07;00;09
Speaker 1
and The Silence of the lambs.
00;07;00;11 - 00;07;06;28
Speaker 1
Each of these characters had its origins in the same true story, The Unspeakable Crimes of a Single Man.
00;07;08;20 - 00;07;14;06
Unknown
You.
00;07;14;06 - 00;07;41;16
Dr. John
I wanted to jump on the fact that, what both of you were saying, Adam and Alex, that in horror and in crime, the fact that this can happen is one of the most frightening things for people in, in society. You know, you can you can take a look at, you know, Bela Lugosi and Dracula and the Frankenstein monster, and they're, you know, they're scary movies.
00;07;41;16 - 00;08;06;14
Dr. John
But do they really scare you to the core, like the possibility of leather faced living next door or and being in your community? So, what we find in the research is that, that fact that you hit on is, is extremely frightening. And I think the most frightening movies have that element. Although I, I know Adam's probably going to,
00;08;06;16 - 00;08;25;10
Dr. John
Yeah, yell at me for this, but slasher movies don't do it. Do it for me. Don't thrill me all that much, because you know who's going to come at you with, you know, an ax or, a chainsaw, you know, out of the blue, whereas living next to a monster like, Ed Gein or, you know,
00;08;25;12 - 00;08;26;20
Stacey/Dori
The hammer.
00;08;26;22 - 00;08;30;27
Dr. John
Yeah. Dahmer. You know, that that's, pretty frightening.
00;08;30;27 - 00;08;35;05
Unknown
Oh. They.
00;08;35;05 - 00;08;48;24
Stacey/Dori
you know, I just found out recently that somebody I knew knew, John Wayne Gacy and actually had a painting of a clown hanging in their house. For all my years growing up, I saw this clown.
00;08;48;26 - 00;08;59;02
Stacey/Dori
And I remember thinking, gosh, that's an odd painting that they have in the middle of their living room. It was it was a John Wayne Gacy painting. I say that because I was going to ask Alex,
00;08;59;02 - 00;09;05;22
Stacey/Dori
is this is Ed Gein is are things based on again because he he was early, early on in the 50s?
00;09;05;28 - 00;09;14;17
Stacey/Dori
Or is it because that case was so unbelievable? People say it's so unbelievably awful for me. I know it's awful. Don't get me wrong, Gacy,
00;09;14;17 - 00;09;21;03
Stacey/Dori
Dahmer and, Ted Bundy to me are scarier. And explain why either of you
00;09;21;03 - 00;09;34;12
Adam
Gene was really the first. I mean, you have to remember when this case broke, in 57, we were a decade removed from World War two. So we knew about the horrors of war, the horrors of the Holocaust. But that was those were foreign horrors.
00;09;34;12 - 00;09;56;20
Adam
They weren't on our shores. They were over in Europe where terrible things happen. And also people were aware during this time that, you know, the big cities were dangerous places. Terrible things happened in the cities, of course, but Keene really sort of just blew open the door that there are monsters living in middle America and middle America, literally and figuratively.
00;09;56;20 - 00;10;14;28
Adam
I mean, Wisconsin is smack dab in the middle of the country, and that little town encapsulates, hundreds of thousands of other little towns everywhere. And I think people realized or maybe not realized, but thought and had the fear. If it could happen here in Plainfield, it could happen anywhere.
00;10;15;01 - 00;10;16;06
Dr. John
Yeah, I want to I want to,
00;10;16;06 - 00;10;36;27
Dr. John
piggyback on on that, because it's like the phenomenon of the The Exorcist, the movie The Exorcist, when that came out, you have to look at some of these horrific events in the context of the social milieu. At the time, there was nothing like The Exorcist when it came out.
00;10;36;27 - 00;10;55;11
Dr. John
Now, I, I've asked a couple of my young nephews, they said, you know, we will have a discussion. What's the scariest movie ever? And I'll go, it was The Exorcist. Well, I was a little kid when The Exorcist came out, and it would frighten me to the core, especially being a Catholic kid, with the church and the devil and all that stuff.
00;10;55;13 - 00;11;20;20
Dr. John
And you hit it on the head with, with again at the at the time when this broke, media was just, you know, becoming, you know, more widespread. We could hear about these things. You wouldn't in the, in the early 50s, 40s, you wouldn't necessarily hear about something in Wisconsin until you read it in, your local physical newspaper.
00;11;20;20 - 00;11;30;28
Dr. John
Two weeks later. But this broke. There was TV cameras all around. So, it's a phenomena that Adam hit right on the head, which was that. It was. It broke,
00;11;30;28 - 00;11;34;02
Dr. John
the iron curtain of, this kind of horror.
00;11;34;02 - 00;11;35;07
Alex
an answer your question, Stacey
00;11;35;07 - 00;11;45;24
Alex
about why why do cases like Dahmer and, Gacy? Why do they creep more than gain? I don't really have an answer for that. And I certainly don't want to minimize Gein's crimes.
00;11;45;26 - 00;11;46;25
Stacey/Dori
Right? No, I wasn't.
00;11;47;02 - 00;12;13;14
Alex
But I think there is, there's a difference between those cases. In this case, those were true serial killers who stopped their prey, who infiltrated, who were true sociopath paths. Some. Whatever. John, I don't I'm not going to bother trying to use, psychological terms. Could you could, but I mean, they were they stalked their prey. They they inflicted mental torture, you know, as they, you know, I'm their victims.
00;12;13;14 - 00;12;14;19
Alex
There was a whole,
00;12;14;19 - 00;12;34;21
Alex
process to the to to what they did. Gein's murders. And there were only two, you know, three if you include the brother. But that's still unclear. So, I mean, in the world of serial killers, it technically isn't even a serial killer. But, you know, his his were impulsive. He saw something in these.
00;12;34;21 - 00;12;48;26
Alex
In these women that were, You know, Adam and I were talking about this the other day, in terms of why he killed these women. Mary Hogan, who was the the bar owner, and then Bernice Ward. And who was the hardware store owner?
00;12;48;26 - 00;12;55;21
Alex
I think she saw them as the sort of antithesis of his mother, the type of person his mother preached against.
00;12;55;23 - 00;13;14;27
Alex
Mary Hogan was, you know, she swore she drank. She was boorish. All those things that her mother would say about, you know, about women. And then Bernice Worden was a self-possessed business owner. That also is not something that his mother would, you know, would, take pride in. So I think those were factors, not the other factor.
00;13;14;27 - 00;13;19;26
Alex
In, in picking these victims, I think might have been more practical.
00;13;19;26 - 00;13;33;24
Alex
You know, we know what he did with the bodies. These were large women. I don't know if you seen silence of the lambs. You kind of know where I'm going with this. So there might. That might have been a factor, too. But in terms of the murder, they were very impulsive, Mary Hogan.
00;13;33;24 - 00;13;45;22
Alex
I mean, there was blood on the floor. He shot her on site. There wasn't a process behind it. There wasn't this whole he wasn't trying to torture her. He was trying to. And John, I mean,
00;13;45;22 - 00;14;01;10
Alex
his crimes have always sort of made sense to me in a really weird way, in that if you take a guy who, had, you know, whether he's schizophrenic, I mean, clearly he was mentally ill, who had this mother who was the quintessential,
00;14;01;10 - 00;14;05;18
Alex
religious, you know, preaching, you know, psychologically damaging.
00;14;05;18 - 00;14;26;14
Alex
Mother think I think, you know, for the movie Carey or something like that, you know, I mean, I'll sort of traces back to Adkins mom. You took it in 1957. You taken in this farmhouse in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin. And then she dies, and he's just left alone, and he's looking for a way to reconnect with his mother and in his own twisted, weird, fucked up way.
00;14;26;14 - 00;14;43;25
Alex
Quite frankly, this is how he does it, you know, it's horrifying. But he, you know, makes these suits and wears the skin and, you know, and the body parts and the, you know, and I just always, it always sort of made sense to me. If you take all of these factors, you know,
00;14;43;25 - 00;14;51;04
Alex
middle of nowhere, his severely mentally ill, crazy ass mother, she dies, left alone to his own devices.
00;14;51;06 - 00;15;09;26
Alex
And he this he's missing this connection. You know, Norman Bates kept his mom up in the attic. What does that game do? How does Ed Gein reconnect? And that was. That was that was how he he chose to do it. It's crazy. It's fucked up. It's disgusting. And it spawned a gazillion different movies. But but it always sort of.
00;15;10;00 - 00;15;17;25
Alex
You know, just a twisted, bizarre, weird way. And I'm not sure what that says about me. It always sort of made sense to me. Again. What what he did,
00;15;17;25 - 00;15;19;16
Alex
I don't know, John. Am I crazy?
00;15;19;19 - 00;15;30;27
Dr. John
You. What you're describing, Alex, is, what we call a minefield, a linear analysis. You know, that? You know, a plus B equals C, you know, with with this
00;15;30;27 - 00;15;32;10
Alex
The pretty fucked up. See though.
00;15;32;14 - 00;15;40;25
Dr. John
Oh, yeah. Yeah, well I was we were talking about that in our, our episode on on ed our episode number two of bad Candy
00;15;40;25 - 00;15;55;00
Dr. John
we can't wrap our heads around the primitiveness and the animalistic ness of of what he did. But you're talking about linear causality, you know? Yeah, I can see where this led to, to what happened.
00;15;55;02 - 00;16;03;04
Dr. John
And a lot of times we're going to find out in maybe future episodes, there's going to be like, how can we explain it? How can we,
00;16;03;04 - 00;16;14;04
Dr. John
really understand it? One of the things that I've been noted for in my field is, consultant on these cases is. And it's been to me, it made, you know, it was logical.
00;16;14;04 - 00;16;22;03
Dr. John
But to law enforcement, it was like, wow, that's a breakthrough. And that's about getting into the criminals world view.
00;16;22;03 - 00;16;41;21
Dr. John
And you're kind of saying it, Alex said Ed had a worldview that made sense to him. You know, this is what I, I now, I made the point last episode about his mother dies. Now he has the freedom to exercise this worldview that, you know, these these fantasies and these urges that he had.
00;16;41;23 - 00;17;14;18
Dr. John
I think it went beyond recreating mommy, although there was elements of that. But, there was just a lot of obsession with women and what women are what are they're made of? So they're therefore I'm picking him apart and taking him apart, etc., because he was excluded from learning about women. Just think about his background. He had no real female contact except for maybe those some of those townspeople that probably kept them a little bit at arm's length because he was so weird.
00;17;15;01 - 00;17;26;16
Unknown
You. You wonder.
00;17;26;18 - 00;17;37;00
Unknown
You.
00;17;37;03 - 00;17;39;21
Unknown
You.
00;17;40;02 - 00;18;06;00
Stacey/Dori
That's why cults cults and crimes are very similar. Because it seems as if he was, you know, his mother was almost like a cult leader keeping him insulated in the house. And then all he knew. So he didn't know about women, just like some of these cults with these, you know, these very, very evangelical or very, very far, far right Christian groups, they do not know anything about women or men or any.
00;18;06;00 - 00;18;12;29
Stacey/Dori
And what to do or how it's done or anything have no education. And I feel that that causes these kinds of things.
00;18;12;29 - 00;18;13;24
Dr. John
And, and, and.
00;18;13;25 - 00;18;14;19
Stacey/Dori
Levels.
00;18;14;21 - 00;18;33;17
Dr. John
And Alex Laster in his documentary made a really good point about how concerned zooming and all consuming his mother was, you know, just kept him she was giving him the truth, right? You know, and he didn't know any firsthand experience about any of this stuff.
00;18;34;02 - 00;18;52;16
Unknown
Have.
00;18;52;18 - 00;18;53;29
Unknown
You.
00;18;56;02 - 00;19;12;16
Dr. John
So my point last episode was mom dies. He goes on this hunt almost to find out what women are about, to the point where putting their faces on and wearing them again doesn't make any sense to us.
00;19;12;18 - 00;19;32;12
Dr. John
But as Alex was pointing out, it has a linear progression. You know, this made sense to him. How do we find out about how do you find out about, you know, remember biology in high school? When will we open up a frog and, you know, see what they're made of? That was part of our biology class. Like it was kind of a kind of mystery being solved by that.
00;19;32;19 - 00;19;36;08
Dr. John
Well, Ed did the same thing with, with women. Interesting.
00;19;36;08 - 00;19;40;25
Unknown
Oh. They.
00;19;41;00 - 00;20;04;07
Stacey/Dori
So, Alex, a lot of people myself being number one, really want to know what happened with all the skin stuff, like where's the furniture? Alex, do you know, is there anything from the cutting room floor that we should know about that wasn't in that documentary?
00;20;04;07 - 00;20;08;10
Alex
I don't know if you remember the fire, the house burning down.
00;20;08;12 - 00;20;19;16
Alex
I mean, if that house hadn't burned down, I mean, I mean, even with it burning down, I mean, it attracted hundreds of people. The car found its way for for years and years and years at different,
00;20;19;22 - 00;20;20;23
Dr. John
Sideshows.
00;20;20;28 - 00;20;24;20
Alex
And shows. Adam, I see you moving back and forth. Do you know something?
00;20;25;05 - 00;20;41;09
Adam
I do know something. Or I'm just being twitchy, but I actually have a I actually have a very quick funny story about that that you might remember. So I go to a lot of horror movie conventions where, you know, I hang out with, you know, like minded horror fans. We watch movies, we talk, and there's some interesting characters there.
00;20;41;11 - 00;21;07;22
Adam
And the horror movie sort of, you know, industry has a lot of crossover with serial killer fanatics. And there's a lot of people who are just interested in serial killers, obviously. And one of them had a booth set up there and he was selling different items. He might have had some Gacy stuff, too, but one of the things he had was, a splinter, piece of wood from the post of Ed Jean's farm, and it was totally legit.
00;21;07;23 - 00;21;30;23
Adam
He you know how baseball cards have, like, you know, certificates of authenticity and they're graded and stuff. This guy literally had, you know, a splinter from the farm and it was, know, the the authorities had said, you know, this is legit. This is, authentic. And I remember texting Alex and I'm like, yo, I'm here with a guy who has a splinter from the, from the, fence.
00;21;30;27 - 00;21;47;26
Adam
Would you want it? And his one word response was no. So anyway, there's a there's a whole cottage industry, you know, of these people who collect and sell and trade and are interested with serial killer, memorabilia.
00;21;47;26 - 00;22;04;03
Stacey/Dori
we did see that, like, the chairs were being taken away and the the police obviously took out a lot of, you know, the heads, the hair in the in the bag. Where does all that shit go?
00;22;04;05 - 00;22;06;03
Alex
I mean, I mean, this is it.
00;22;06;03 - 00;22;29;02
Stacey/Dori
All at these conventions, like, and I, I think, I think what I think what I'm trying to get at is maybe I want a skin chair in my place, like, maybe. Yeah. What is wrong with it, Ashley? Furniture like a like who knows. But you know, I am trying to interested.
00;22;29;02 - 00;22;42;10
Stacey/Dori
Because I know in the documentary you guys make it known that people, you know, want to see the house that's now burned down or people would go and but there must be that curiosity like, oh, I'm in Plainfield.
00;22;42;10 - 00;22;48;09
Stacey/Dori
Like, let me check out, you know, because that's really what Plainfield is not. The Ed Gein.
00;22;48;09 - 00;22;49;23
Dr. John
Museum in Plainfield.
00;22;50;00 - 00;22;53;16
Stacey/Dori
Yes. Is coming is coming 2026.
00;22;53;16 - 00;22;55;17
Alex
the town certainly
00;22;55;17 - 00;23;07;22
Alex
was doing whatever it could to sort of pretend that never happened. I mean, they were gracious and nice to me, and for the most part, just kind of left me alone. Most of them probably had no idea who I was or what I was doing there, but,
00;23;07;22 - 00;23;15;08
Alex
it certainly wasn't something that they were proud of or were trying to make or we're trying to make money off of, they really weren't.
00;23;15;08 - 00;23;15;10
Alex
So,
00;23;15;10 - 00;23;36;25
Alex
in terms of the items. Yeah. I mean, obviously just like the basic stuff as chairs and not even skin ones, just like, as furniture and stuff. Then out in the barn that all burned down. There was stuff taken away by the Wisconsin crime lab. I'm assuming they held on to that stuff for a while, but even if it's the Wisconsin crime lab, it's 1957, I can't imagine.
00;23;36;25 - 00;23;40;09
Alex
I mean, I'm sure at some point they dispose of the stuff
00;23;40;11 - 00;23;49;04
Adam
don't know the answer is. I mean, I'm asking everybody when it when a case is closed, when it's been adjudicated and everybody's died, did they get rid of all the evidence or did they save it forever?
00;23;49;07 - 00;24;13;16
Dr. John
Not necessarily I get it I get involved in that end of cases. And here's the reason why not is because, there might be other victims that come up, you know, 20, 30 years from, a particular crime and then a case like Ed, which I believe I have a theory that he killed more than just the two people.
00;24;13;19 - 00;24;34;20
Dr. John
Three people with his brother. I'm convinced he killed his brother. But they do hold on to it for an indeterminate, length of time because, another victim may come up, a family may be missing somebody, and and you never know what they can find through some of the evidence that they have on file.
00;24;34;23 - 00;24;44;18
Dr. John
So it could very well be Dory that there's a there's a little warehouse in the Wisconsin criminal lab that has a bunch of boxes of, some.
00;24;44;19 - 00;24;50;08
Stacey/Dori
But he's getting a birthday gift doing summer. I mean, how does
00;24;50;10 - 00;24;59;23
Alex
it is possible, but I'm pretty sure I would have tried back then to find out. I mean, it's fucked up.
00;24;59;23 - 00;25;09;28
Stacey/Dori
Is that Alex is sitting in a chair right now. Everybody, we don't know for sure what that is not. It could be a crime lab.
00;25;10;00 - 00;25;10;26
Alex
Oh. And in
00;25;10;26 - 00;25;12;18
Alex
response to what you're saying, John,
00;25;12;18 - 00;25;28;14
Alex
I also agree that most likely killed his brother, I think, and the running theory was that his brother was kind of getting on Ed's case about, you know, his relationship with mommy, and he just wanted him out of the picture. I certainly think there's validity in that.
00;25;28;16 - 00;25;36;07
Alex
In terms of other victims, the only reason why I disagree about that is that,
00;25;36;07 - 00;25;50;05
Alex
Ed isn't the type of guy that was venturing that far, beyond Plainfield. I mean, he did have a car to drive, obviously, but he didn't strike me. He didn't. There wasn't really evidence that he ever traveled much farther to Plainfield.
00;25;50;05 - 00;25;58;27
Alex
And if people were disappearing in Plainfield, Wisconsin, it was only 700 people. Reports would have been made. Yeah. I you know, obviously, I don't know.
00;25;58;27 - 00;26;29;03
Dr. John
the way I say it. And this is important for our audience as well, you know, talk about work cases like this. There's usually a progression of violence. You know, the people probably know the stereotypic, you know, starting to kill and dissect animals and, you know, be cruel to animals and other forms of violence that just gets boundaries, get, you know, past and, do with these kind of people.
00;26;29;10 - 00;26;40;01
Dr. John
So that's why I'm thinking, how did he hurt somebody? Did he inflict violence on somebody else prior to, these murders we know about? You know?
00;26;40;06 - 00;26;41;22
Alex
Well, here's the question, though, John.
00;26;41;22 - 00;26;49;00
Alex
In Ed's mind, I don't know the answer to this, and that's mine. Was there actually any difference between killing these two women and robbing graves?
00;26;49;02 - 00;26;49;18
Dr. John
No.
00;26;49;20 - 00;26;56;14
Alex
Guilt is the same. So, I mean, he was robbing a lot of graves. So the progression was there. I mean, his mind.
00;26;56;14 - 00;27;06;14
Alex
I see a difference between and the type of killer he is and the classic serial killers that we know about, right? I mean, there is. Yes.
00;27;06;16 - 00;27;06;26
Dr. John
Yeah.
00;27;07;04 - 00;27;12;05
Alex
Right. The, the the urge to kill the, the right. I mean, it's.
00;27;12;05 - 00;27;40;23
Dr. John
Well, yeah. Alex, I talked about it in the episode, number two is that the difference is that. And there was it didn't seem like a lot of hate to. And I don't say he love these women, but that these weren't hate crimes necessarily. And that distinguishes him from a lot of these popular serial killers. You know, usually what we see is some anger, some hate, some disgust.
00;27;40;25 - 00;28;05;22
Dr. John
We don't we don't know because we never really got in-depth with studying Ed while he was alive. But, there's no evidence of of of hate or anger. You. So you're right. I don't think there's any difference between him and. And this was, not only, digging up bodies, but also like, killing an animal, you know, or.
00;28;05;25 - 00;28;22;14
Stacey/Dori
Yeah, I think it wasn't. It doesn't seem to me that it was necessarily personal was about his need. So however he could soothe his need, he would he would do that right. Like Dorie said in our last episode, which was really funny, but I actually agreed that he's sort of cute, you know, like you look at it more so is Ted Bundy.
00;28;22;14 - 00;28;37;26
Stacey/Dori
But, but but like, sort of meek and cute with good posture and seems really nice and sweet, you know? So to me, I think that's why somebody like Dahmer or Gacy or Bundy are more scary to me because there's like a sinister sort of.
00;28;37;28 - 00;28;38;26
Dr. John
Everyman that.
00;28;38;29 - 00;28;50;10
Stacey/Dori
This is. Yeah. Is Siri. Yeah. And the Siri and the killing, killing, killing it was for obviously all of it's for their need. But for Ed Gein, it was almost like feeding something like that. He was missing.
00;28;50;10 - 00;28;54;16
Unknown
Oh. They.
00;28;54;16 - 00;29;01;03
Stacey/Dori
how do you keep skin, in good shape with no preserved preservation? Like I was going to ask, I was back.
00;29;01;03 - 00;29;16;01
Stacey/Dori
I'm back on the skin with Dory. How do you keep the skin from rotting? And didn't it smell horrible? I mean, how do you keep these organs and stuff to them? You seem like somebody who would know the answer to this.
00;29;16;03 - 00;29;18;17
Adam
But I wish I could help you. But now I.
00;29;18;24 - 00;29;24;04
Dr. John
Just need to get some. I got a little bit in, you know, decoration on his wall there.
00;29;24;04 - 00;29;41;04
Adam
It looks like as you guys were talking, I was actually looking behind me because I was wondering if I had any kind of, you know, fun memorabilia from the movies that I could pull out, but I can't find anything. I do, I do have, Well, actually, once I stop talking, I'll look for it. I think I know where it is.
00;29;41;08 - 00;29;49;05
Adam
I do have a signed photo of, Leatherface. And he wrote Adam, you're next on it. So it's great you guys keep talking. I'll try to find it.
00;29;49;09 - 00;29;51;25
Stacey/Dori
I had another question for Adam.
00;29;51;25 - 00;29;53;07
Adam
I'm. I'm just.
00;29;53;09 - 00;30;16;05
Stacey/Dori
I'm curious. What do you think about, like, there are obviously these real stories that, you know, like, Stacy and I are so fascinated about. And then the movies that are done on these stories, what is what is your. He's showing us a photo of Dorothy the.
00;30;16;07 - 00;30;18;00
Alex
So what?
00;30;18;03 - 00;30;19;13
Stacey/Dori
It looks good on you.
00;30;19;13 - 00;30;20;06
Stacey/Dori
What
00;30;20;06 - 00;30;31;11
Stacey/Dori
your feeling about turning these, like, true crime stories into movies? How,
00;30;31;11 - 00;30;46;05
Stacey/Dori
much do you think that movies need to stay to the story line? Do you like, do you think movies are better about these disgusting crimes than the actual documentaries that go about them? Talk a little bit about that.
00;30;46;05 - 00;30;47;08
Stacey/Dori
For us.
00;30;47;11 - 00;30;52;28
Adam
It depends completely on the specific movie and the specific work of art.
00;30;52;28 - 00;31;13;08
Adam
One of the things about Queen that is so interesting is as awful as his crimes were, if you look at the movies, at least the big ones that were made right after, or because we were talking about it before, let's just say Texas Chainsaw and let's say sound of the lambs. The filmmakers made a conscious choice, obviously not to not to stay too close to the story.
00;31;13;11 - 00;31;24;19
Adam
And the reason I think for that is because it was more horrific and more interesting, to make the carriers more in the classic mold of serial killers, who actually went out and stalked their
00;31;24;19 - 00;31;38;15
Adam
prey and killed them. I mean, there's no doubt when you look at both, Leatherface and Texas Chainsaw Buffalo Bill and Silence the Lambs that these guys are far, far scarier than, old Ed Gein was sitting in his shack in Plainfield.
00;31;38;15 - 00;31;49;11
Alex
my personal opinion is nine times out of ten, I think. I mean, regardless of how true the movie stays to the actual story, most of the time a documentary is more horrifying.
00;31;49;11 - 00;31;55;05
Alex
the one movie that jumps out at me that I mean, it's also kind of even loosely based, but I think it's fascinating.
00;31;55;05 - 00;32;17;23
Alex
You know, Adam is a fan as well. You reference that the other day, at least the second one, Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer. That's a phenomenal movie. And I think it was based on Henry Lee Lucas, so. And it wasn't, you know, and it's not really. And I don't even know the Lucas case well enough. I mean, there's a lot of sort of kind of like in, I think, Lucas there's a lot of sort of question of, did he kill as many people as he claims kind of thing, but the movie is amazing.
00;32;17;23 - 00;32;35;02
Alex
I mean, it's horrifying. And it really gets into the psychosis of of the person for the most part. But like Chuck Perella with the guy in the in the documentary game who made that movie again, the movie's terrible. I hope he's not listening to this, but I mean, it's it's not a good movie. He was great because he researched the character and everything.
00;32;35;02 - 00;32;47;12
Alex
So, I mean, I really liked him, but it was a very good movie. And Adam was saying that the same director directed Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer, Part two, and apparently that wasn't a very good movie. I.
00;32;47;12 - 00;32;52;21
Alex
Know, but for the most part, I think a documentary is more horrifying,
00;32;52;21 - 00;33;10;07
Dr. John
is. Yeah, it goes back to that, this this really happened. This is reality rather than we know. That's one of the reasons. That's one of the ways in which people cope with horror movies, especially gruesome horror movies. You can distance yourself from it because you know, this, this is not going to happen.
00;33;10;07 - 00;33;36;02
Dr. John
It's it's Hollywood. They made it up. You know, it's exaggerated. So it's not real. But when you have a documentary like you made Alex master, you know, it it really brings us to wow, this is reality. And these people lived with it, which, by the way. And I'm dying to ask you this, since we started. So I'm going to slip it in here right now inappropriately.
00;33;36;04 - 00;33;39;24
Dr. John
Were you in the house? Were you in the house before it burned down?
00;33;39;27 - 00;33;41;26
Alex
No, it burned down in the 50s.
00;33;41;29 - 00;33;42;24
Dr. John
Okay.
00;33;42;27 - 00;33;48;26
Alex
So I was going to, No, we drove up there. We went to the farmer. It was. And it's just empty. It's just farmland.
00;33;48;28 - 00;33;52;24
Stacey/Dori
No, it's just barren. Like there's nobody living there even or,
00;33;52;26 - 00;34;16;21
Alex
There. There might have been, but it was. It was a giant farm. I mean, there wasn't really anything in that spot. I think the structure that was Mary Hogan's bar was still there. I seem to remember filming the the outside of that. But, but now, you know, there wasn't I mean, you know, the biggest coup, if you will, you know, in documentaries, you know, getting the archive, that kind of stuff is always really huge.
00;34;16;21 - 00;34;23;00
Alex
And being able to get like those old interviews of people on the scene back in the 50s, like, like residents,
00;34;23;00 - 00;34;26;09
Dr. John
And you did have pictures of the inside of the house in the in your diary.
00;34;26;11 - 00;34;44;07
Alex
We did have pictures. There was a lot I mean, the, the, the investigators really, took pictures of everything that I mean, we didn't really we did kind of a I have a, the editor who edited the documentary, a guy named RJ who's done some work for Adam and I as well, is just absolutely a phenomenal creative person.
00;34;44;09 - 00;35;02;05
Alex
I mean, we had the picture of Bernice Ward, and we couldn't really show a woman just hanging with their head cut off. So we basically just print out a picture and just ran a flashlight over it. So you just kind of get the idea of it. So, yeah. Yeah, it's so creative. Yeah. He's a very creative guy.
00;35;02;07 - 00;35;04;22
Alex
He edited the Melbourne documentary as well.
00;35;04;24 - 00;35;10;06
Stacey/Dori
Oh, okay. Well, what's Moe Berg has nothing to do with this. Sorry.
00;35;10;08 - 00;35;14;27
Alex
But. Yeah, so there was, I mean, I think there. Yeah, there was footage of inside the house as well back, you know, what was.
00;35;15;03 - 00;35;41;29
Dr. John
What what I was going to get out and, I don't know if anybody else. I don't think so. But having been on real cases and going into structures like that, I was going to ask you if you could feel the, the evil. Because when I go into these houses of killers and, and even in cells, when they're in maximum security, lock up and I'm with them in a, in, an interview room.
00;35;42;01 - 00;35;47;21
Dr. John
I don't know, maybe it's me, but I can just feel the evil, you know, I just feel, you know, the dread. Yeah.
00;35;48;04 - 00;36;10;21
Stacey/Dori
The energy is there. It's like sort of a heaviness. I have a question for Adam and Alex as a group. How are you know, Alex? You know, admittedly said the true things scare him the most. And now all he does is true crime stuff, with an exception about other things, obviously. And you, Adam, are more interested in horror movies that are not based in, are they?
00;36;10;23 - 00;36;26;13
Stacey/Dori
So my question is, how do you guys work together? And like what? Like how do you balance each other out when you're doing these things like for example, the the editing? I know Adam didn't work on the film, but then there's other things you guys have done together. Tell us about that.
00;36;26;15 - 00;36;53;18
Adam
Well, I think we have, both different skill sets, that, that we bring to the table. But I will say, and this has been borne out many times, we share a lot of the same artistic sensibilities. There have been tons of times when we're looking at a cut of a film, where we're sitting next to each other on a couch and I'm about to say something like, make a comment about it, and Alex will beat me to the punch and say something.
00;36;53;21 - 00;37;14;05
Adam
And I just nod my head because that's exactly what I was going to say. So I, you know, I don't want to be so dramatic and say, you know, it's like one mind we're working because it's certainly not because we both bring different things to bear. But we do share a lot of the same sensibilities. And, look, if we were going to start a project from day one, there's no question I would work more on the business end of it raising the money, dealing with the contracts all that.
00;37;14;09 - 00;37;30;08
Adam
Well, Alex would really conceive the, the entire creative look and the creative feel of the project. But we've both done things separately, and we both have the capabilities to do it ourselves as well. But we certainly also enjoy working together. It's a lot of fun.
00;37;30;11 - 00;37;31;13
Alex
Absolutely.
00;37;31;16 - 00;37;49;28
Stacey/Dori
Alex, before you answer, I have such when I hear people talking about you and I'm your sister, it makes me so proud that you left and you're so successful, you know? And you and I have worked on one project together, and now this is kind of the second one, but it's it's it's wonderful to have another creative person in your family.
00;37;49;28 - 00;38;06;13
Stacey/Dori
And then my mom is creative and my dad thinks he's creative, or maybe he is creative. But it's just nice to have this sort of balance with me and you. And how did that happen? That'll be saved for another podcast. Now, you put in your. But I'm very proud. Hopefully not a true crime. Right now.
00;38;06;15 - 00;38;11;20
Dr. John
But in our, our episodes, you know, the the plasters, you know. Yeah.
00;38;11;22 - 00;38;12;09
Stacey/Dori
We need some.
00;38;12;09 - 00;38;16;19
Dr. John
We'll need some, you know, Andy of Mayberry theme music or something.
00;38;16;21 - 00;38;19;19
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. Right. Exactly. It's all the family. Well, what are you going to say?
00;38;19;19 - 00;38;26;09
Alex
Well, I'm going to say, first of all, thank you for the compliments. I'm currently freelancer. If anyone listening inspiring you, call.
00;38;26;09 - 00;38;28;27
Alex
But, beyond that, I'm not. I mean, as far as Adam and I work,
00;38;28;27 - 00;38;36;09
Alex
you know, oftentimes when I describe our partnership, I describe it very simplistically. I say, Adam gets the work and I do the work.
00;38;36;12 - 00;38;46;18
Alex
But that is absolutely a simplistic. First off, it's much harder. He has a much harder job. It's a thousand times harder to get somebody to actually sign a contract and write a check that it's actually make a TV show.
00;38;46;18 - 00;38;56;13
Alex
but that's also being simplistic. Obviously, I've been involved in the development process and Adam has been involved, you know, deeply in the creative process, and on a variety of levels.
00;38;56;21 - 00;39;10;04
Alex
But, I mean, in terms of, like our working relationship, I mean, I've always viewed our relationship. The reason we've been successful is just because we're we are not afraid to be honest with each other. You know, we oftentimes will pitch ideas to each other.
00;39;10;04 - 00;39;13;14
Alex
And neither one of us is afraid to say that idea just sucks.
00;39;13;14 - 00;39;32;04
Alex
And sometimes, you know, sometimes, you know what Adam tells me? It's usually Adam telling me an idea sucks. Sometimes I get a little annoyed, but, you know, I move on. But it's also good. Is that even if he says an idea sucks if I press him on it, if he sees that I'm passionate, he'll look oftentimes a little reluctant, say, okay, we'll pitch.
00;39;32;06 - 00;39;50;08
Alex
So but I think just generally speaking, for anyone out there looking to, you know, you know, looking for a partnership, what makes a great partnership and all in all honesty, it is honesty. And that is like, I could not be clearer, just, you know, if someone has a shitty idea, just say it sucks and don't be there on the bus and just move on.
00;39;50;09 - 00;39;51;07
Dr. John
Here, here.
00;39;51;09 - 00;39;58;17
Stacey/Dori
All right. Stacy. Doctor. John. Pod. Candy. This sucks. That,
00;39;58;19 - 00;40;00;02
Dr. John
All right. Nice.
00;40;00;02 - 00;40;03;08
Stacey/Dori
Nice knowing you, Dory. Now. Yeah, yeah. No.
00;40;03;08 - 00;40;05;13
Dr. John
Nice having you on a couple episodes.
00;40;05;13 - 00;40;10;07
Unknown
Oh. They.
00;40;10;07 - 00;40;22;08
Stacey/Dori
Alex, is there any, is there any, like, killer or cult that you would want to do a documentary about that you haven't as of yet?
00;40;22;08 - 00;40;37;05
Alex
I honestly don't know. I mean, you know, obviously there's a lot of cases out there that have been done to death, you know, there. Oh, actually, I know you know, the one that I've always wanted to do. It's a very old one. Do you know what it is, Adam?
00;40;37;07 - 00;40;39;18
Alex
Very old, like 100 years old.
00;40;39;20 - 00;40;43;17
Adam
It was probably the same one I'm thinking of. Go ahead, Chad Holmes.
00;40;43;19 - 00;40;44;28
Alex
We have falling in love.
00;40;45;01 - 00;40;46;09
Adam
Oh, I've.
00;40;46;13 - 00;40;51;23
Alex
Always wanted to do Leopold Law. I absolutely am fascinated with that case. In the Chicago case,
00;40;51;23 - 00;40;56;12
Alex
the greatest true crime book I've ever, read, called compulsion,
00;40;56;12 - 00;41;01;17
Alex
It's just fascinating. It's a it's just and just the, the the psychology of these two guys.
00;41;01;17 - 00;41;04;14
Alex
Adam introduced me to,
00;41;04;14 - 00;41;12;23
Alex
what is now my favorite Alfred Hitchcock movie, which is based loosely on Leopold and Loeb rope. If you haven't seen rope, check out rope. It's fucking awesome. Oh,
00;41;12;23 - 00;41;15;03
Alex
but. Yeah. So. Yeah, that that that good.
00;41;15;05 - 00;41;21;19
Stacey/Dori
I didn't I don't know much about Leopold in law, but mom was really into it. Was there another book written about Leopold? Was there another book that.
00;41;21;19 - 00;41;25;14
Alex
Was good is compulsion man with our mother was she was actually the one who. Tell me about it.
00;41;25;21 - 00;41;26;00
Dr. John
Yeah.
00;41;26;07 - 00;41;28;05
Stacey/Dori
Oh, really? Okay.
00;41;28;07 - 00;41;31;16
Alex
I mean, and I'm putting it up there with, like, in cold blood and like that. Good.
00;41;31;19 - 00;41;32;19
Stacey/Dori
Yeah. Okay.
00;41;32;21 - 00;41;33;05
Dr. John
And I think.
00;41;33;06 - 00;41;33;19
Stacey/Dori
I read it.
00;41;33;21 - 00;41;35;17
Dr. John
I'm dying to hear. Adam's got.
00;41;35;17 - 00;41;36;18
Stacey/Dori
Adam.
00;41;36;20 - 00;41;41;23
Adam
Oh, you can't be dying to hear it because you said it. Go ahead. Take it away, John. Oh, what was I going to say?
00;41;41;25 - 00;41;42;27
Dr. John
HHC.
00;41;43;00 - 00;41;59;22
Adam
H.H. Holmes, we finally need the definitive and really one of the first big budget movies about H.H. Holmes. Leo Leonardo DiCaprio has been circling the project for years. It was going to come to fruition maybe ten years ago, and then it fell apart. But this is a guy and a lot of it is exaggerated.
00;41;59;22 - 00;42;00;28
Alex
House of horrors.
00;42;00;28 - 00;42;20;13
Adam
House of horrors. Right. That this serial killer who lived on the South Side of Chicago during the Columbian Exposition, that had a house of horrors with, you know, torture rooms, passages that led to nowhere. Thoughts that put people, you know, had them slide down to a vat of acid. And a lot of that has been exaggerated.
00;42;20;13 - 00;42;32;13
Adam
You know, true crime buffs will tell you, oh, he didn't really do this, he really do that. But the idea of it is just so unbelievably cinematic. It's shocking that they really haven't made, faithful adaptation of it. Yeah.
00;42;32;18 - 00;42;38;19
Stacey/Dori
I'm going to do a little research on this. I was actually just looking it up. I don't even I don't even know about H.H. Holmes.
00;42;38;25 - 00;42;43;12
Alex
Yeah, it's a fascinating story. Why am I blanking on the name for the book.
00;42;43;14 - 00;42;44;18
Stacey/Dori
Devil in the White City?
00;42;44;21 - 00;42;45;21
Alex
Oh, my city.
00;42;45;23 - 00;42;48;24
Stacey/Dori
Oh, that's devil in the White City. John and I talked about that about 15 or 20
00;42;48;24 - 00;42;58;17
Stacey/Dori
years ago. Yeah, I, I never read that. And I was going to say, oh, it's a great white city. Yeah. I don't know why I haven't read it. Is it girl or is.
00;42;58;20 - 00;43;03;20
Alex
One of the best books I've ever read? I mean, it's. Yeah. What's that? What's amazing about it is that so? It's obviously.
00;43;03;20 - 00;43;04;24
Stacey/Dori
About I'm writing this down.
00;43;04;29 - 00;43;06;21
Alex
But the world turned into. It's almost
00;43;06;21 - 00;43;25;21
Alex
every chapter switches off. So one chapter will be about the world's Fair and creating it, and the Ferris wheel and the White City and all that stuff, and high rises and elevators on the ship. And then the other than the other chapter will be about AJ Holmes. And I have to be honest, I'm probably in the minority, but I actually enjoyed the chapters about like, The White City and the Queen.
00;43;25;22 - 00;43;26;09
Alex
Well.
00;43;26;12 - 00;43;27;03
Stacey/Dori
I should say.
00;43;27;03 - 00;43;27;14
Dr. John
I know.
00;43;27;20 - 00;43;28;11
Stacey/Dori
I.
00;43;28;14 - 00;43;28;18
Alex
It.
00;43;28;18 - 00;43;29;05
Stacey/Dori
Was a.
00;43;29;09 - 00;43;30;03
Alex
Fascinating to me.
00;43;30;03 - 00;43;40;20
Stacey/Dori
It's fascinating. I actually directed, I don't know if anybody knows this. Oh, yeah. You do know I have a theater school, but I'm also a director and choreographer, and I directed a staged reading of
00;43;40;20 - 00;43;50;25
Stacey/Dori
a show called White City. It had nothing to do with H8 homes. It was only White City. And about that, and about a death that happened there and just it was a it was a really cool show.
00;43;50;25 - 00;44;04;07
Stacey/Dori
But I, I found those architects so fascinating. So I don't know about that aspect. I don't know about the h h so I will read that book. Thank you for suggesting it or I'll listen to it. I tell people I read, but I don't really read.
00;44;04;11 - 00;44;07;22
Dr. John
I listen as Adam pointed out, the story is on
00;44;07;22 - 00;44;31;18
Dr. John
an incredible, I will say, the devil in the White City. I agree with Alex. I like the parts. The parts that drew me were the creation of the, World's Fair and the development of the parks around Chicago. Burnham and Nolan, the the author. I don't think they also could have done a better job with the crime and the the horror of a judge.
00;44;31;18 - 00;44;36;10
Dr. John
Holmes, you know, was kind of, you know, you just kind of there.
00;44;36;19 - 00;44;59;28
Adam
You want to read if you want to read just about H.H. Holmes. And those crimes, there's an author who Alex interviewed in the documentary, Harold Schecter, who, who wrote a book about H.H. Holmes and his books are about serial killers, and they're all one word titles. So, like, deranged, demented, insane. And I forget what the H.H. Holmes one was, but that's how that's how I became aware of.
00;45;00;04 - 00;45;07;10
Adam
I read the book, and I honestly, I forget whether or not it's, you know, a good work of literature, but the story was just riveting. I've never been able to forget about it.
00;45;07;10 - 00;45;29;27
Alex
One, one. Just funny little tidbit about. So Harold Schecter lived in, he was living in Brooklyn, so that we did the interview in his home and he's talking about the most horrific stuff in the world. But the thing of it is, he lived next door to an elementary school, so he's talking about this horrible stuff, school that's out and always hear in the background and children laughing.
00;45;30;03 - 00;45;31;12
Stacey/Dori
So I got to.
00;45;31;18 - 00;45;34;07
Alex
Stop the interview for like an hour.
00;45;34;09 - 00;45;39;00
Stacey/Dori
Or two. It was weird and macabre, you know.
00;45;39;02 - 00;45;42;27
Alex
But that was actually, during a lot of the time, a little back story. That was one fun one.
00;45;42;27 - 00;45;47;23
Unknown
Oh. They.
00;45;47;23 - 00;46;08;00
Stacey/Dori
So is there anything else that, Like, I feel like Adam, like, is there anything you wanted to tell us about those three characters that you know that were based on again, and which one you might have thought was the most effective or the most scary, or the most? I mean, I think they're all scary, but I really thought Buffalo Bill was scary.
00;46;08;04 - 00;46;15;08
Stacey/Dori
But me and Alex agree that we think that psycho Norman Bates might have been the scariest.
00;46;15;29 - 00;46;45;03
Adam
As I'll say about your question real quickly, it is absolutely amazing to me and I really haven't thought of this before. Before I knew it sort of intrinsically, but it's not something I thought about that arguably three of the greatest horror movies ever made, certainly Psycho and Texas Chainsaw. You could. We can quibble if silence is really a horror movie or a thriller or whatever, but three of the greatest movies ever made take as its source material this one, you know, psychopath from Plainfield, Wisconsin.
00;46;45;03 - 00;47;06;05
Adam
I mean, that's just, you know, absolutely extraordinary. And the other extraordinary thing is, if you look at them, if you look at them as art, as pieces of art, each of them forget about the stories, forget about that. Just look at them as individual movies based on the same source. It's unbelievable how different they are. I mean, psycho was a black and white.
00;47;06;07 - 00;47;28;19
Adam
I don't want to call it a stage drama because there are bursts of extreme violence. It has arguably one of the most violent scenes ever in cinema, but it is in some parts a very slow, talky, methodical movie. No question about it. I mean, nothing really happens until midway through when Marion is killed in the shower, and then you have Texas Chainsaw, for which, although not a drop of blood is spilled.
00;47;28;19 - 00;47;53;08
Adam
Literally not a drop of blood throughout the whole film until the very, very end is shown on camera. People will say it's the most violent movie ever made because it's so wild and frenetic and just, you know, at and just absolutely out of control. So you couldn't find two more divergent artistic sensibilities than those two films. And then you throw in sound slams and that's different than both of them.
00;47;53;08 - 00;47;56;16
Adam
It's just sort of a very procedural.
00;47;56;19 - 00;47;57;24
Dr. John
Yeah.
00;47;57;27 - 00;48;04;27
Adam
There you go. Let me I will end with that. Yeah, absolutely. A great, brilliant procedural. Thriller.
00;48;05;03 - 00;48;05;21
Dr. John
Yeah.
00;48;06;07 - 00;48;12;11
Alex
Can I ask Adam a question? Are there any other movies, like on that caliber that are based on game that we didn't, that weren't talked about?
00;48;12;14 - 00;48;13;09
Adam
Yeah, there
00;48;13;09 - 00;48;31;27
Adam
are tons. There are movies like three on a meat hook and deranged, but none of them, even though they may be more faithful to the game story, none of them are as good as psycho, Texas Chainsaw and, silence. But what I do want to say, about cults, even though we haven't talked about cults at all, I know about, you know, your previous episodes.
00;48;32;04 - 00;48;49;04
Adam
If people are looking for a good cult film. One of my favorite all time horror movies. I mean, my favorite changes all the time. But if somebody says, what are your top five? This is always in the top five. It's from the 1970s called race with the devil. It is just with Peter Fonda and Warren Oates.
00;48;49;06 - 00;49;07;06
Adam
It is just an absolutely terrifying film about, about two married couples who go across Texas and stumble upon a cult and are chased by this cult. It's just, you know, it's blood chilling. And I don't say that about, you know, too many films.
00;49;07;12 - 00;49;10;05
Alex
What are the other what are the other four?
00;49;10;05 - 00;49;10;28
Alex
You said top.
00;49;10;28 - 00;49;27;22
Adam
Out. Oh, my favorite films. Usually if somebody puts me on the spot, it's not really not real interesting because, you know, they're all well known. But I'll always say probably Creepshow, Nightmare on Elm Street, Halloween, maybe Poltergeist. So, I mean, not exactly films that have flown under the radar, but they're my favorite.
00;49;27;22 - 00;49;29;06
Adam
I just
00;49;29;06 - 00;49;32;07
Adam
George too, but I don't really know if that's a horror film.
00;49;32;09 - 00;49;34;24
Stacey/Dori
Just one. Just kidding. I know you just.
00;49;34;26 - 00;49;35;27
Alex
Mentioned adventure is.
00;49;35;28 - 00;49;37;12
Dr. John
The finished my my yeah.
00;49;37;12 - 00;49;49;18
Stacey/Dori
The Exorcist. I know a known fact. I don't think I've seen it. I don't think I've seen the whole Exorcist. I think it was boring to me. I don't know why. And this is when I was younger. I should probably revisit that.
00;49;49;18 - 00;50;07;22
Dr. John
In the context of when it came out. And, and, and there's a I think there's a documentary on, the making of The Exorcist, which was, fascinating because they showed, footage of people standing in line, and also coming out of the theater, and people were passing out and throwing up.
00;50;07;22 - 00;50;10;18
Dr. John
Oh, wow. You know, it was quite a people.
00;50;10;18 - 00;50;13;19
Stacey/Dori
Are really sheltered. Yeah. Passing out probably.
00;50;13;21 - 00;50;37;03
Adam
You have to remember, Stacy. I mean, this is, And we can end on this. Maybe. But you really have to take into consideration, the culture of the time, because John's absolutely right. What are you saying about people fainting in The Exorcist? And you can sort of see that today. But what boggles my mind is when Frankenstein came out in 1931, people went to see that and were literally fainting in the streets.
00;50;37;05 - 00;50;55;07
Adam
You know, women had vapors. I mean, they were like, oh, I mean, when Frankenstein was shown for the first time and now our kids would look at that and they would be bored and laugh and just it's so hokey and silly. But at the time, it was something, you know, more horrific than than people had ever seen.
00;50;55;07 - 00;50;59;26
Unknown
Oh. They.
00;50;59;26 - 00;51;02;09
Stacey/Dori
I just want to say thank you to Alex and Adam.
00;51;02;11 - 00;51;11;19
Stacey/Dori
There's an endless amount of questions that I have a lot more, but we'll just have to do an addendum to this podcast and then do another addendum to that one, and then just keep doing addendums to one podcast.
00;51;11;26 - 00;51;16;09
Adam
That would be more fun. Alex and I were sitting together and we could do it, but we're both at our own house. It's unfortunate.
00;51;16;09 - 00;51;32;08
Stacey/Dori
That's okay. I just appreciate you. Thank you. John and Dory and, doctor and Dory, do you want to. Do you have any last minute closing thoughts? No, I, I really enjoyed speaking with, the two of you come back every time.
00;51;32;08 - 00;51;35;26
Stacey/Dori
Not just any time. I come back every time. Every time.
00;51;35;26 - 00;51;39;28
Stacey/Dori
but you can definitely, find us on our website
00;51;39;28 - 00;51;48;20
Stacey/Dori
And pop candy podcast.com. What else am I supposed to say? Are there other stories? We'll do another ending later.
00;51;48;20 - 00;51;57;23
Stacey/Dori
But Dory, can we try to harmonize pod candy right now? If I say 1 to 3 and then we do it. Okay. Ready? Yeah, yeah. One, two. Three.
00;51;57;29 - 00;52;01;00
Stacey
Candy.
00;52;01;02 - 00;52;10;12
Unknown
I.
00;52;10;14 - 00;52;23;29
Unknown
Wish.