Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Anja: Welcome to the Honest Money
Show a big thanks to our sponsor.
Shop Bitcoin Australia for
making today's episode possible.
Hello.
So joining me today is Mike.
Mike is a Bitcoin educator, and he's
got a channel on YouTube called Bitcoin.
Straight up.
Welcome to Honest Money Show.
Mike.
Mike: Thanks for really good to be here.
Anja: I really wanted to share some
of the success of your channel, which
I'm really, really impressed with.
And I'll also share the backstory
of how I came across you with my
audience and with you as well.
So, um, Bitcoin straight up.
You started in June.
This year you already have over 4,500
subscribers and you've hit nearly
a, well, nearly 2000, um, views.
Essentially you're like around
at 184,000, which is just amazing
for such a short amount of time.
And how I came across your profile, I
was cooking dinner, I had a normie over
and um, they were very interested in
Bitcoin, so they were flicking through
YouTube and I was getting really nervous
that they were gonna come across.
Some scammy influencer and they put her
on your channel and I'm kind of cooking
and I'm listening, and I heard you say
something like, I'm gonna try to explain
everything about Bitcoin in two hours.
And I was like, oh, well done.
Like good luck with that challenge.
And I'm tuning in, I'm thinking this man
really knows what he's talking about.
And when you were talking like alluding
to the difficulty adjustment, I just kind
of knew straight away that you actually
knew Bitcoin and understood it quite well.
And I found your channel so
addictive and so fun to listen
to and so accurate as well.
So, um, yes, that's
kind of, that's awesome.
My intro.
I'd love to know what prompted
you to start your channel.
Mike: Yeah, sure.
Um, well I actually went to Prague,
I went to Bitcoin Prague, um, in,
it would've been around the time.
It was literally like, I think the day
I got back, I published my first video.
I'd already had some.
I had like those 10 videos in my head.
And to be, to be frank, like I
only did them because the amount
of friends and family that had
like, maybe asked questions.
And then I'd explained it, and
then I came away and been like,
oh, I've explained that so badly.
I was like, you know, and I was just
like, well, if I just spent some time
and put together what I wanted to say,
I feel like I could do it way better.
And so that's what I did.
Like, I just had those 10 videos where
I, I just hadn't seen them anywhere else.
And I was like, I've got these
things in my head that I've
tried to explain to people.
And so I was like, I'm just gonna,
I'm gonna just spend so much time that
they, they took ages, I'm not gonna lie.
Like they took so much time to come
up with the ideas and the concepts and
the script and putting them together.
Um, but that was, that was the only
reason why I started the channel was
just to like, then give them to my
friend and be like, watch this, please.
This is what I'm trying to say.
And it's condensed in a way
that isn't just rambling for.
Ages because there's tons of
podcasts, there's tons of, you know,
deep dives that you can go into.
But I, I personally found it was very hard
to send someone like a, a 10 minute video
or a 20 minute video, which summarized
most things that I wanted to say.
Um, so yeah, that two hour one
that you, you found is, um, or your
friend found is just a, it's the
compilation of those 10 videos.
And then I, but then what I started
to realize is so many people were
commenting on videos and saying,
oh, I've shared this with a friend.
And I was like, but that is just useless.
You can't send this sixth one of
the 10 part series to someone.
It, it won't make sense.
Like, it might peak their curiosity
and they'll be like, oh, that's nice.
And then they'll get on with their day
and they'll forget about it and they
won't, they won't do anything else.
Whereas you need to see, you need to
see the whole journey and the whole
process really, I thought anyway,
for, for it to actually actually work.
So that's why I just ended
up putting them all together.
And then it can be.
Here you go.
This is, this is everything in two hours.
It's obviously not everything.
You can't cover everything about
Bitcoin in two hours, but I think it
covers all of the basics as much as you
can if you, if you know what I mean.
Um, in my opinion anyway, it was
all, everything that I wanted to
say to my friends and family anyway.
Anja: Yeah.
And it takes real skill to distill so
much information and give people like
a bite-sized elevator pitch of Bitcoin.
I know that's always the hardest
thing to do because people, you
know, wanna know, okay, what's
the value proposition of Bitcoin?
It's like, well, it's not that simple.
There's so many different aspects
you can take it in and yeah,
it's just really, really hard.
So it takes real skill and I think
the numbers that you are achieving
speak for themselves, um, it
really is high signal channel.
I, I really, really like it.
Um, I'm curious to know
what is your background?
Mike: I'm a teacher, I'm a PE teacher.
So yeah, I think in the first couple
of videos that I did, I didn't include
them in the two hour compilation
just 'cause I knew they, they were
literally made for friends and family.
You know, it is like showing them
that I, I was a massive skeptic.
So it's not like I've got here by just
blindly being like, oh, one day I'm
just gonna go all in on Bitcoin, or, you
know, it is, that's not how it happened.
So those first two videos kind of showed a
bit of that background and just explained
like, how I got there, but I figured it
w it wouldn't have worked in that two
hour one because people just wanted,
you know, that that video was made more
like if some random person found it.
This is everything I want
to explain about Bitcoin.
So understanding my story
wouldn't have been useful.
But yeah, that's, I, I was a PE teacher.
We actually moved to Qatar in
the Middle East, so my wife and I
were there for like eight years.
Um.
And yeah, just while I was there, i,
I, I became obsessed with money, really
obsessed with like, the history of money.
And this was like maybe 20 14,
15 and that then I led, that
led me to like gold and silver.
So I was very much like gold is the
answer, but it's quite like black
pilley I found, you know, it is not
very, it was very, it make, it's
quite dark and it makes you feel
like, oh, the world is so messed up
and it was a little bit like this.
Even though I feel like gold is gonna
be okay and it's gonna help, it's,
it is still not gonna fix anything.
Like, because it's, it's already been
manipulated, it's already been controlled.
You can't just move back onto
a gold standard and expect
everything to go back to.
Like Austrian economics and everything.
It's just not, it's not realistically
going to work in this like digital age.
Um, so yeah, then I'm, I heard about
Bitcoin around that time, but I was
very much like, this is a massive scam.
I think bought it a little bit at
like 2017 when it was going crazy.
So I think I maybe bought it around
like $8,000 or something, but not
like hardly anything just because
I was like, something's happening
here and I need to figure it out.
I dunno about you, but I, I only learned
about things if I've got some sort
of skin in the game or some reason to
actually learn about it a bit more.
And then obviously 2018 happened and I
was like, yeah, this is definitely a scam.
I was right.
It was, it was definitely
not, not gonna work.
Kind of fell for all the obvious scams
that probably everyone goes through
and, well, not everyone, I suppose now
I think there's a bit more awareness of
it, but back then it was very much like,
oh, there's this digital money, which
is just making people rich and, and then
there's things that offering you 10%
return a month for forever or like 15%.
Well, I can't really remember what it
was, but I remember falling for one of
those, again, not putting much in it,
but like, oh yeah, well, that this seems
to be like a, a better way of buying
Bitcoin rather than just buying Bitcoin.
But um, yeah, that's kind of how
I sort of stumbled in into it all.
So it was really just a deep
research into how broken the
money was that that led me there.
Anja: That is so interesting because
yeah, for hearing you speak, um, about
your story, it seems obvious that you
knew very early on what the problem was.
But you, as you say, even in 2018, you
were convinced that Bitcoin is a scam
after that, after it crashed after 2017.
And I'm curious to know, 'cause
I also read that you, uh, called
Bitcoin digital tulips back in 2018.
Yeah.
I'm curious to know what finally was it
that kind of set you off to think that,
hey, there's something more to this.
Mike: Yeah, so I'm, I'm quite analytical,
so, um, what I ended up doing is just
putting, just, I made this massive
spreadsheet of all the ways that Bitcoin
could fail or it could be a scam, or
it could just be, you know, useless.
And so going through that and
then literally doing a deep dive
on each of my points, I was.
It was just like every time I was
like ticking 'em off and being like,
yeah, that's not actually a threat.
And, you know, that's
not actually a threat.
And so I, I did a, like, in, in that
two hour one, there is a, well, there's
one video on all the threats or the
ways that Bitcoin could fail really.
And I do still see there's like a
potential couple, I know a lot of
people in the Bitcoin space are very
much like, yeah, there's no threats.
But I think it's, um, for me anyway,
again, that's something that I've found
was lacking in the Bitcoin space is, you
know, like the Michael Saylor who just,
they just focus only on the positive.
And he's obviously done so
much for the Bitcoin space.
But me personally, personally
being like analytical, I
wanna know what the risks are.
Like I don't want someone
to just sidestep them.
I want you to tell me like what are the
actual risks and explain why they're
not actual risks, you know, so that's.
It was basically me doing that
myself, which arguably is better
than someone else explaining to you.
Um, that then eventually I
was just like, I don't see any
real massive risks to this.
Like, you know, or massive threats
that is gonna stop Bitcoin.
The, the, the kind of like I, I
mentioned before we hit record as well.
The, the only one that I still really see
is because obviously the, the, I mean,
I don't wanna get the conspiracy theory,
everything's so early, but it the, if
there is like this deep state or people
that are controlling the money supply,
which I think most people in the Bitcoin
space are aware of that there is, there's
some sort of control to the whole system.
Who it is what it is.
We don't necessarily know
exactly, but they're not just
gonna give up that control.
'cause obviously it's so
beneficial to them to.
Have this control, like to,
to have the money printer to
be able to be closer to it.
There's so much benefits,
which we don't need to go into.
But, um, again, I'm sure most listeners
already know what those are, but my
point was always that, well, they're
not just gonna hand over control,
so how are they going to break this?
Like, how, what are they
going to do to stop this?
Um, and I think it's like, you know,
the Simon Dixons and people of the,
in the Bitcoin space, I feel, I feel
like they're, that's the angle where
I can see what they're trying to do at
the minute with the ETFs and things.
I think they're just trying to
control as much of it and o get,
own as much of it as possible.
And then that's potentially
where the risks could come from.
But from being in the Bitcoin space
and, you know, going to more, more and
more meetups, going to more conferences
and things like that, it's, it's opened
my eyes to how many people already
understand this and it's only getting
more and more, you know, like, so even.
For myself, I've only started running
a node this year, and so that's another
person that's been added to the network.
And there's, there's multiple people
that I've met over these past few
months who have done exactly the same.
Only in this last year, they've started
running a node, and most people hold
it in self custody at these events, but
not, not everyone, you know, there's
still definitely people that hold it
in ETFs or in custody of some sort,
you know, or some sort of exchange.
So basically, as long as more and
more people keep running nodes,
keep self custody in it, it really
doesn't matter what, what they do.
The issue is, is if they can make it
so incentivized to put your, to sell
yourself custody Bitcoin, put it into
an ETF, then I could see that could
be potentially where the issue is.
But I feel like the cat's out the bag now.
Like I feel like there's too many
people that know this and that
I'm not just going to do that.
Yeah, I mean that, that's
kind of what convinced me.
It was like, I don't, I
don't see any real risks.
Anja: Yeah.
So that's interesting.
So do you essentially think
that decentralization is, sorry,
centralization is the biggest risk?
Um, or what would you say?
Like how would you summarize?
Mike: Yeah, it's pretty much all the
risks are centralization of some sort.
So, you know, Jeff Booth always
says the, the five rules of Bitcoin,
and if it stays those five rules,
then it is the global free market.
It will reprice everything.
And really when you peel back those five
things, so I, I remember them using dopes.
That's the, I just use the
acronym like, 'cause I've come
from that teaching background.
I always, 'cause I, I forgot.
I know two.
Yeah, well I, because that's the thing
is like, there's just five rules, but
it's like, what are those five rules?
Go on, let's see if you
can remember them all.
So secure
Anja: and decentralized.
That's.
So they're the two,
Mike: two big ones?
Yeah.
What would o be?
Anja: I don't know.
OI don't know.
Mike: Open.
So it's an open network?
Anja: Open?
Yeah.
Okay.
Mike: PP is a protocol.
So it's a protocol, which means
that there can only be one.
Uh, and, and that as well a
deep dive in the protocol.
I didn't really truly understand Bitcoin
until I understood what a protocol was.
So it's the same with the internet.
There, there's, there's only one internet.
We can't have like multiple internets,
uh, because you know, you actually
have to lay the physical cables.
And it's the same way with Bitcoin.
You have the physical infrastructure
of like the miners and the nodes, and
they don't, those miners can't just
switch to Casper or whatever other.
S coin, I dunno if you can swear on.
So, uh, you know, oh
Anja: we do.
Where This is an Australian podcast,
so swearing is very welcome.
Mike: Oh yeah.
So you can't have any other shit
coin that these miners just change
it onto, so it is, uh, that's, that's
the point of a protocol really, is
that it was the understanding that
infrastructure behind it is that, oh,
okay, this is what, this is why Bitcoin
is so secure and so decentralized.
And then e is energy bound.
So it is bounded by energy, so it's
actually tied to the physical real world.
So, I mean, you can't argue that it's
en energy bound it, that is just a fact.
It's proof of work.
The miners do do the work,
and that's what makes it run.
You know, that that's what, that's how
each new block is mined and everything.
Um.
You can't argue that it's a protocol,
it is a set of rules that can no, that
is, if you don't abide by those rules,
you are not on the Bitcoin network.
It's kind of like black and white and
there can't be another one because
of the infrastructure as well.
So that's, that was the bit that really
for me, it was like, oh yeah, that's,
that's another penny drop moment.
You can't argue that it's open, like
anyone can use it without permission.
Even in countries that have banned, it's
already been proven, you know, people do
use it and, and will continue to use it.
So there's not really anything that
governments or anyone can do about it.
And then, so it's really the big
two, like the, the two that you said,
decentralized, secure, and decentralized.
And really, as long as it stays
decentralized, it is going to be secure.
So it's, it's really all falls down to
the decentralized, as long as it stays
decentralized, which like I already said,
as long as people keep running a node, as
long as people keep self custody in it.
There is nothing that can break this.
And so that realization was like,
okay, you know, so why am I, why am
I still like not understanding this?
This literally is the first global
free market that's ever existed.
Like if you just peel it all back to
first principles, then from where I
stand anyway, as long as it has, if
something, if anything has those five
rules, that would be a global free market.
'cause
it would be, so that's, that's really
where, where I was like, yeah, it
just went full conviction mode.
Once I understood those five
rules, I was like, yeah, this is
actually a global free market.
And once you understand a global free
market, everything is going to get
cheaper within that global free market.
So if you live in a Bitcoin
standard, everything in your life
is just gonna get cheaper over time.
And it's pretty exciting.
It's like, you know,
compared to like the gold.
Sort of black pilling that I went through
before the orange pill is like, oh my God,
this is actually massive fu for humanity.
This is way bigger than
just me stacking SATs.
This is this, this is gonna help everyone
as long as it stays decentralized.
So,
Anja: yeah.
Absolutely.
And is that what motivates you to,
you know, do this sort of education?
Um, is that kind of like Yeah.
What's your motivation behind it?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, those,
those first 10 videos, I had no
expectations or anything for them.
And then as the people just started
sharing and some of the comments and
feedback I was getting, I was like,
oh, okay, this is actually helpful.
And I didn't realize it was actually
gonna be useful for lots of people.
And so when I got to the end
of those 10 videos, I was like,
I've actually quite enjoyed this.
It's been like quite fun to do so,
and I've got loads of other stuff
that I could talk about as well.
So there's, there's so
many other angles where.
I see that people haven't really touched
on, um, for example, like the global free
market thing, like Jeff Booth talks about
it quite a lot, but you don't really
see anyone coming at it from that angle.
Um, and so if you can prove that,
and so like that's actually within
the next couple of weeks, I will
have like, that's, that'll be my next
like two hour one will be Bitcoin
is the first global gimme two hours.
I'll prove that it is the
first global free market.
And I'll go through exactly
what kind of what I've just said
there, but more in detail and like
attacking each of those five things.
So rather than just being like, yeah,
it's decentralized, let's move on,
it's like, no, why is it decentralized?
What are the things that
make it decentralized?
And is there anything that can
make it not become decentralized?
So really it all boils down to that
one threat that I say like that I see,
which is institutions doing whatever
it is that they're doing at the
minute to try and accumulate as much.
Um, and that to be, to put that
in black and white as well.
The threat that I see from that is
that if they were, I, I dunno what the
percentage would be, but let's just say
they control the vast majority of Bitcoin.
So everyone just sells all their
self custody, holds it in BlackRock,
E BlackRock, ETF or whatever it is.
Um, when that is the case then if there
was some sort of fork, so a lot of
this debate around the whole knots core
thing and the bit 4, 4 4 and everything.
I dunno if much has come up in that.
And I know you said you were just at a,
a conference for the last few days, but I
dunno if that's much of a, there is always
Anja: a knots versus core debate.
Happen in the community and just
when we don't think it's, we're
not, we're gonna talk about it,
we do end up talking about it.
We just, usually the first day
of the, the three day event is
a bit devs and surprisingly it
did not get mentioned in there.
But then during the main
events, of course it did.
So there's, it's never gonna not come up.
And it's interesting because, um, we do
have some of the really, like, some of
the most strong Bitcoiners in Australia.
Um, and some are pro core, some are
pro knots, and there's people on both
sides of the debate that I, um, respect.
But I've never done the deep dive myself.
I actually just got a note, so
I'll have to, I'll have to do it.
Um, now that I kind of have some
skin in the game, um, as you say.
But yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Um, but I mean, like, just for example,
the, the whole bit 4, 4 4 proposal
is potentially gonna be like a soft
walk, which would actually change
the direction that Bitcoin goes.
And it changes the rules on the
consensus level, which is like
that they are the main rules.
So all this argument around core knots, it
doesn't to, from where I stand anyway, I
don't think it really matters whether you
run a core or knots node because that's
only on the, what's the other layer?
Pro the protocol?
No, not the protocol.
The, the other layer,
my mind's gone blank.
So there's the consensus layer and
then there's obviously this layer,
which you're not actually changing
it, it's not gonna change anything.
You, it, it, it will change
what you personally filter
in running through your node.
And so I totally appreciate why a lot of
people say, I'm going to run knots because
I don't want any of this other stuff.
Running through it.
However, just diving into it a little
bit more, I've realized like it, it
could have some other detrimental impact.
I don't, I don't fully understand all
the technicalities, and I've never, never
tried, never tried to pretend that I do.
Um, but I think there's, there's
more to it than just, oh, it,
I'm not gonna run it on my nodes.
So that, that solves everything because
it, it, well, it doesn't, and also,
um, it can have other implications
as well, like if there's not enough
people running the same thing because
it just means things get left in the
memo and it becomes messy or something.
But whether the core knots thing
is not the important thing.
The important thing here that though,
that I see is that whenever a soft
fork does come up, it just means that
whoever, BlackRock or the institutions
or whoever decides to run with, then
everyone that has their Bitcoin held
by that institution is automatically.
Being you, you are being
chosen, which way you go.
You have no voice in which way you go.
Whereas if you run your own
node, you can literally choose.
So that's, that's like the vote,
that's what keeps it decentralized.
Um, so that's really
where the threat happens.
And it might only be like a
small change initially and it
changes bitcoin a little bit.
And then I think this is what a lot of
people are worried about with the whole
core knots debate at the minute, is
people just like, just keep it the same,
you know, stop, stop messing with it.
Um, whereas I think from the
other side it's like, well, you
have to keep improving Bitcoin.
You can't just leave it because you know,
at some stage things like quantum will
be a threat and we need to be able to
make sure we can actually change it as a
community to make sure it stays quantum
resistant or whatever the next threat is.
So I think that's pretty much both sides
sum summarized as simply as possible.
But that's, that's kind
of what I mean though, on.
If it does get too decentralized, I see
that as the threat further down the road.
Anja: Yeah.
And would you like to just quickly explain
at a very high level what BIP 4 4, 4 is
Mike: Not really to the audience.
It's, it's very, it seems quite confus.
It is basically a BIP is a
Bitcoin improvement proposal.
So that's how new things are added to
Bitcoin's, like code and everything.
Um, I haven't gone too much into bit
4, 4, 4, but the people that I have
spoke to who are far more technical
than me, they have said like there's
not really any, like, it doesn't even
have the code that would be changed.
Um, so it's very, uh, philosophical,
like the proposed change.
And I think one of the big
concerns I have around it is that
it sounds like once something.
Enters Bitcoin.
So one of these, the worst case scenario,
you know, like CSAM or you know, some,
some illicit material enters Bitcoin.
When that enters, then they will go
back and do a soft walk off there,
which basically means, for me anyway, it
removes one of Bitcoin's main core things,
which is it, it's immutability where
you can't change what goes on Bitcoin.
So if something's immutable, it just
means it's gonna be there forever.
And that's one of the massive things
about Bitcoin and that's, that's
why a lot of this spam or whatever
it is that people wanna call it, is
entering it is because people know
that is gonna be there forever.
You can't change, can't change it.
Um, as soon as someone has a say in,
we can now go back and change the rules
because of something has entered that we
don't like then that massively changes.
A big part of Bitcoin.
So with the proposal at the
moment, it sounds like it's
Speaker 3: not a
Mike: good one, but if there was a
way that you could just prevent spam
and just leave it only as monetary
transactions, then that would be great.
But as far as I'm aware at the minute,
I don't think that really exists.
It's just there's too many ways,
there's too many workarounds and
ways that people can put whatever
they want on the blockchain.
I think really the bottom line is,
which has already happened, if you
look at things like NFTs on Ethereum
in 2021, most people now know that
they're just a scam and don't buy
them for millions of dollars because.
It's a scam.
Like people have realized that
there's just no point in this.
What's, what's the point in
holding a picture of a monkey
on my computer for you?
Remember like the celebrities buying
them for like millions in 2021 and stuff.
So eventually people just realize that
and then they, there is no demand for it.
And so the money dries up and it
just stops happening sort of thing.
Um, which again, is an overly simplified
one of the arguments from core side.
But I think really that is the more
that I've dug into it, because I,
I came at it very much from like,
you know, Bitcoin's money and stop
messing with it and, and everything.
And then it, it sort of made me,
as I've learned more about it, it
made me realize actually no, it is a
permissionless network that is immutable.
And if we start changing that,
you're changing one of the
main things of Bitcoin, which
then what else could change?
Um, and that's again, going back
to what I was saying about like.
Centralized thinking.
As soon as we get anything
that's centralized in Bitcoin,
that's where the real threats
are from, from my perspective.
Anyway.
Anja: Yeah, that's,
that's really interesting.
I don't have an opinion on it, so I
can't follow up, but I know that at
the bit devs just gone, this was one
of the main things that was talked
about and I missed that entire day.
I try to stay away from the more
technical topics 'cause I'm just
like, I don't feel I can contribute
as much to the, to the discussion,
but one day I'm still working my way
through the philosophical arguments.
Mike: Yeah, I mean that was
exactly the same as me as well.
It's like I didn't really want
to have anything to do with this.
'cause I'd seen so many like messy
arguments going on about it and I
was just like, well, it doesn't, I
dunno enough like, you know, and then.
It was just so many people were
asking in the comments on tho like,
those first like 10 videos of it.
Can you just explain like what's
going, because so many people just
didn't understand what was going on.
And then I knew some of it and I'd done
some research and I was like, I feel
like I could probably explain this better
than what has been out there so far.
And then, yeah, it just
opened a whole can of worms.
Then I, I got humbled.
I was like, oh my God, there's
so much I don't understand.
And then I had to learn way more.
And then, yeah, it's just, it is a
whole other rabbit hole in itself.
Um, but equally it's just like I'm, I've
got to a stage where I kind of feel like
it's not really a threat now personally,
and it's like I don't really want to
keep going round in circles because you
just keep having the same, it's just like
the same argument over and over again.
Reasoning.
Anja: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
And it's just, you just keep
going round and round in circles.
And I think that's what is
really hard about it is that.
I think both sides are coming
at it from a really good place.
They actually want the best for Bitcoin.
Um, and it just shows how many people
do really care about it as well.
So like, I think it's a, it has been
quite a good thing to see like how many
people are really passionate about it
and really want to keep Bitcoin secure.
Um,
but I think the big issue is, is that
to really understand this debate, it's
almost like you have to be like developer
level, you know, code, understand code
and understand so many techy aspects of it
to really be able to truly understand it.
And a lot of like the knot side, as
soon as you say that, the knot side
will be like, oh yeah, but that's just
people like, you know, putting the
plebs down and like, we we're smarter
than that and we can figure stuff out.
And it's like, I get, and I
get that thinking as well.
'cause like I say, I really did come at
it from the knot side originally, so.
That's exactly what I was thinking
as well, was like, well just
explain it to me, like someone just
explain it to me and then I can
understand it and then it'll be okay.
Sort of things.
Um, but yeah, it is, that
is is a massive rabbit hole.
It's, it's helped me learn a
ton about Bitcoin, to be fair.
You know, on the technical
side of things, again,
Speaker 3: that has been really useful.
I haven't got a book somewhere,
you know, um, what's his name?
Andreas Antonopoulos, his book
Anja: Mastering Bitcoin.
Speaker 3: That's the one that book I
Anja: know I have it too.
Yeah.
Mike: God.
But it is, it is, it's intense.
It really is.
But it's super helpful, just like
he does do things really help,
like, you know, makes like charts
and things and simplifies it.
Um, but yeah, I mean, just the
way that he writes it is complex,
you know, it's like mm-hmm.
It's not an easy read, but
it's, it's super helpful to.
If you are interested in that, but I think
this is the thing as well, is that most
people don't need to know any of this
stuff in the same way that you don't need
to know how your car engine works and
you don't need to know how a plane flies.
You can just go on a plane and use it.
You know?
It's the same thing is that most
people don't need to understand how
Bitcoin works for it to actually be
Anja: useful.
Mike: Useful, yeah.
And rolled out in like mass, mass
adoption and things, so, yeah.
Anja: Need a way to sign, verify
and secure your Bitcoin Australia's
one-stop shop for Bitcoiners.
Has you covered from signing
devices, nodes, and backup solutions?
To bid access day decor and
apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au.
Yeah.
So with your audience on YouTube, are
you by the way, on any other channels?
Mike: Is it mainly, I use Nasta a bit.
I dunno if you use nasta much, but
Anja: I do.
'cause that's where I, that's
where I reached out course for you.
Um, and again, funny experience for
the Normie that I was with, because we
wa we sat down and we watched the rest
of your, um, show and I was like, I
need to ask him to come on my podcast.
So I just, I was like, I was
trying to, what's his name?
Let me find him.
I was trying to find your Twitter,
but then I saw you, your N pub.
So I immediately went, found your
nosto, sent you a message, and
within two minutes you responded.
And then you went on my
profile and sent me some stats.
And I, like said, said to my friend,
I was like, oh, I just got, he sent me
some Bitcoin, my friend's, like, what?
Speaker 4: Like, yeah.
Anja: Reached out across to
someone across the world and
now they're sending you some.
I'm like, yeah, that's,
that's how we work.
Mike: It's amazing, isn't it?
It's just unreal.
Like, it doesn't make any
sense to a normie does it?
It's like that just what,
he's just sent you some money,
like, you know, but that's,
Anja: I know,
Mike: it's just a whole
level world, isn't it?
It is incredible.
And it, but that, that's
why I'm only on Gnostic.
I do have a Twitter, but I, I
mean, I haven't used it for years.
I, I probably like 20 20 20, 20 21, you
know, COVID time, that sort of stuff.
I really did a massive
detox on social media.
'cause I was just like, ah, it's
just, there's not much good that
comes from it is what I realized.
Um, and so I just haven't
really used it for years.
And then.
When I went to Prague, I then learned
more about Nasta and I was like,
oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get it.
But I've already found myself like,
you know, like you said, you reached
out to me and I replied really quickly.
I've already found myself ended up
becoming, like checking my phone and,
you know, that that dopamine hits
still exists, even if it's nasta, even
if it is a decentralized platform.
So it's, it's, I dunno, I dunno, I dunno
what the answer is to social media, but
um, yeah, that's really the, the only
place is YouTube and, and Nasta, I think
I've heard Jeff Booth say this as well
before, is like, I only want to put
my time into places where I can see it
being like beneficial and where I can
see like, the future that I wanna see.
And so that is literally, it is
like Bitcoin and no, there is, there
isn't really at the minute anywhere
else that I put my time, other than
I still have like a actual job.
So like, you know, which pays
the bills and everything.
So that's really where my,
my time goes at the minute.
Anja: Yeah.
And I was going to ask you for your
YouTube channel, would you say your
audience is mostly like Bitcoin curious
or Bitcoiners, or do you get like complete
nubs, um, interested in your channel?
Mike: Yeah, a bit, bit of both.
Um, I really like, I, I love it
when I get a new poster, a comment,
especially if they, they've
like, thought about something.
I'm like, yes, this is, like, this is
exactly what, and so I always try and
spend more time if someone actually
asks a question, even if it's say, even
if it seems stupid, or even if I've
already seen that question like 10 times.
It's like, because I remember
being in that position.
Like I remember how it feels to
sort of be like, yeah, but what
about this or what about that?
And I, I, so I, I really
love it when I see that.
But yeah, I mean obviously you
just end up attracting Bitcoiners.
And I think the other
thing as well is that.
I've heard before something like
every, for every comment that you
receive, you probably have like 50
or a hundred people thinking the same
thing that don't leave a comment.
I dunno how true that is.
I've just made that up.
But, um, that's what I've sort, sort
of found as well is that I found,
like from the Bitcoin space, you
get more comments from Bitcoins.
They're, they're like supportive
and they're like, oh, this is really
good and I want, sort of share this.
Whereas from Normies or Noobs, they, I
think a lot of them just will come watch
it and then leave because they're like,
I don't wanna be associated with this.
It's just, yeah.
You know, they're still figuring it out.
So, um, it's hard, it's hard to say
exactly, but yeah, most comments
do come from Bitcoiners or people
that already kind of understand it.
Uh, but it's definitely more, that's how
I think I want to position the channel
as well, as much more beginner focus.
'cause like I say, I feel like
there's a lot of podcasts, like in
depth stuff and there's a lot more.
Places for Bitcoin is to
get content these days.
Uh, whereas I still haven't seen, there's
actually one other channel, I dunno
if you've seen the exit manual, Julian
Anja: something.
Oh, I'm gonna write it down.
Um, I've
Mike: gotta watch his channel.
His, his is way better than mine, way
better or is, is incredible what he
is because he is an actual YouTuber.
Whereas I'm like just some guy who
is mish smashing stuff together
and, you know, watched some
held to YouTube videos before.
But I'm not, I haven't come from like
a YouTube background or anything.
Like I said, I'm a PE
teacher, you know, it is.
Uh, so that's, his stuff is really,
but like, that, that really excites me
is like he's actually getting so many
newbies coming into the space and like
there's so many creators now that are
actually educating people properly.
And it's like, I can see
like how this could be.
It would just help that snowball,
when people actually are given good
information in a concise way, they'll
be a lot more receptive to it.
Whereas I think, you know, even this time
four years ago, there was so little, like
there was even so few podcasts and stuff.
So I think even in these last, really
in this last ball run, there's just
been so many better co content creators
and stuff coming into the space.
So it, it can only help with the
education side of things really.
Anja: Yeah.
And I have heard people say, I can't
remember exactly who to attribute this
to, but um, people have said that adoption
from here on is not going to be price led.
It's going to be narrative led.
And the more storytellers and
and creative people that we have
in this space, the better it is.
Um, one of the issues that I had
studying my, um, podcast was I was
like, well, who would listen to me?
I don't have a traditional
finance background.
I'm just a girl.
I'm still learning myself,
um, who would listen to me.
But then I get people saying, I
love how you explain this, or,
I love how you explain that.
And, you know, I think it's nice
also to see like a female-led
voice, especially in Australia.
'cause we've only had one, um,
podcast through in Australia and
she's no longer doing it because
it just is very time consuming.
Um, especially when you have
guests on and you have to like, do
research on them, read their books,
and it, it takes a lot of time.
And, um.
I don't know what the future of my channel
is, but I've also had some, not many,
it's mostly Bitcoiners, but I have had
some, um, newbies interested in, again,
uh, even though it is somewhat beginner
friendly, I'm kind of having conversation
with people, um, with the assumption that
they have some basic understanding of it.
And a lot of people who are, you
know, new to Bitcoin, they need
to go right back to the beginning.
Um, so it still comes across
as very jargon, even though
that's not my intention.
Um, so I might need to yeah, create
like some sort of introductory series
myself that, you know, they can go
to and come back and listen to the
podcast if that's what's interest them.
Mike: Yeah, I guess what's so hard is
when you have guests on is obviously
you can't control what they say, and
so they will just speak in whatever
language comes across to them.
So.
Like you say, they will just use
jargon and they might not even
realize that they're using jargon.
And so again, this is something that
I've learned from doing a deep dive
into like the Knots core stuff, is that
once I then understood a lot of things,
um, from what core was trying to say,
as in literally like a week before,
I had no idea what this word meant.
And then I started like just flippantly
using this word, you know, such as
like BRC 20 or inscription and you
know, like all of these things where
if you're not from the bitcoin world's,
like what are you talking about?
You know?
And so literally within a week I sort
of went from not even knowing what these
things were to then just using them in
passing and then being like, hang on, no,
people don't understand what that means.
And then sort of having to
backtrack again and then explain
like, this thing is part of this.
And, you know, so it's, it is super hard.
It's super, super hard to, um.
To always keep it beginner friendly.
So I think there's like a bit of a
balancing act of trying to keep it so
that beginners can really understand,
but then people that are at that next
step, because really I'd even class
myself as a beginner, you know, like
there's still, I'm only scratching the
surface on what, what Bitcoin really
is and like all of the layers to it.
So it is, it's not like I see myself
as some expert or anything in, in the
area, it's just more I know how much
time and effort I've put in and I feel
like I could actually help people that
are starting from zero to get there
quicker, if you know what I mean.
So that's, and, and that would be the
same thing with your podcast as well,
and I think you're exactly right as well.
There's, there's so few females
in the space that it, it's just
so beneficial each time that.
Anyone comes into the space, it,
it's just always gonna be beneficial.
Even though I said there's loads of
Bitcoin podcasts, it's still, it's still
like not enough, if that makes sense.
You know, we still need way more because
everyone has their own person that they
will relate to or will be able to learn
something from in a different way.
That you could have a hundred people
say exactly the same thing about Bitcoin
and you might only relate to one or
two of them, or you might only take
it in from one or two, or they use
the analogy or whatever it is, or one
little story that makes something click.
Um, but yeah.
Anja: Yeah.
So true.
And I'd love to know the people in
your life, your wife, for example,
is she a Bitcoin or is she more like,
is this a crazy hobby of yours or
Mike: a bit of both?
Um, she, she gets.
I'm saying, uh, she, she won't even
watch my videos, but she, she'll,
she'll watch an occasional one.
I'll be like, you've gotta watch this one.
Just, just, you know, so
like, what, what is Bitcoin?
I've, I've made her watch that a couple
of times 'cause I'm like, I think probably
you have to understand this at least.
Um, but yeah, she's, she's very
much like, she's super supportive.
I think that's what is, she's always,
and always has been, you know, like
moving abroad was very much like my idea.
And then she came on board with
it and then, and then it was more
like she wanted to stay where I
was more like, oh, let's go back.
And she's like, no, I wanna stay now.
You know, so she's, she's always been
super, super supportive with anything
that, that I do, even though I'm seen
as crazy to most of my friends now.
But, um, she, she's very understanding.
Uh, and she, she definitely gets the
idea, but she, yeah, she's not like.
Probably like me or you
in, in Bitcoin sense.
Like she wouldn't, she wouldn't have like
that much of a, a deep care about it.
It's like, yeah, Bitcoin, Bitcoin's cool.
Bitcoin makes sense, but that's it.
You know?
So
Anja: yeah, my parents think I'm
absolutely like, they're like, why
do you care about this so much?
Especially my mom, my dad's
more, more supportive 'cause
he's like, I love this for you.
You found your passion.
And my mom's like, why are you burning
out trying to teach people or, yeah.
It's
Mike: just, I love it.
Yeah.
Well I haven't even told my parents.
So that's, that's how supportive they are.
Well, there's this just 'cause I've,
I've multiple times dropped Bitcoin, you
know, and tried to explain bits to my
dad and he's not receptive of it at all.
What I'm actually thinking of doing
is sitting down with them and I'm
gonna see if I can record it as well.
'cause I think this would be amazing.
Like if I can actually sit
down with him and show them
that two hour video and like.
Pause it, let them have conversation
around it and stuff, just because
I think it's that important.
But the time is not right just yet.
Like, I, I just need to,
when when the time's Right.
You know, because like I say, I haven't
even told them that I, I have this
channel, a big part of why I did it was
for them, but it needs to be like, I
can't just WhatsApp that, that to them.
They will literally be
like, you are crazy.
What are you doing?
Like, you know, why are you doing this?
They, they won't even
really like take it in.
I need to actually sit down with
them and, and show it to them.
Um, I think I have sent it to like my, my
sisters and some other close, but again,
haven't really had any questions for my
sisters, so I've never pushed anything.
I've just been like, I'd really
appreciate if you watched this one video.
It's like 10 minutes.
That's it, you know, just to see if it
peaks the curiosity and then I'll allow
people to come back to me and then.
We can have a chat if they want to, like,
because there's nothing worse than trying
to, it's almost like a religion, isn't it?
Fine, you know, people, people see it
as you're in like this cult or something
that they're trying to get them in.
And most people are like,
are you in a Ponzi scheme?
Like, are you just, you
know, doing some sort
Speaker 4: of pyramid?
Are you in a MLM trying to sell me?
Like, what are they called?
Arbon or whatever the MLM things are.
I'm like, oh man, no, no I'm not.
But uh, yeah,
Anja: so it's so funny.
But in where you live now in your local
community, are, are you involved in any
like local meetups or things like that?
You do have other Bitcoin is,
you're not all alone like,
Mike: yeah, finally, but I, again,
really only since starting the channel,
I dunno why, like, I've just been putting
it off because I was like, oh, there's
gonna be just like, it's gonna be five
weirdos and I'm just gonna have to speak.
But then I just.
I put my big poy pants and
eventually went to one.
So yeah, there's one that's
like an hour away that I go to.
Um, I really should, like, I, I'm like
an hour away from like four or five.
I should go to others as well, but I just
haven't again got wrapped, you know, it
is time and stuff isn't there, you know,
family life and all that sort of stuff.
So, um, but yeah, I've
been going to conferences.
There was one in Manchester like
last weekend, so I went to that.
That was really cool.
There was another one in another
place in England where I went to,
so I've gone to way more in-person
things and it has helped massively.
And actually, um, I do a, a podcast with
TC who does like the road to one Bitcoin.
He's got a really good channel actually.
Um, and I. We are, we are going to
speak to some farmers like next month.
That's amazing.
'cause they're interested.
And so yeah, it's things like that
where I'm really excited about.
I'm like super excited.
You know, if you can actually get,
just even from a purely selfish
point of view, like if I can buy
food using Bitcoin that's massive.
Like that is literally, you're
like 90% of the way there to
being in the circular economy.
Like that's really the only expense
that you need other than shelter
each month that the only thing
that you really need is food.
So if I can find someone to buy
food from using vehicle Bitcoin,
and then that would be huge.
So, yeah, I'm excited about that.
Anja: We have a butcher in, in Northern
Rivers here that accepts Bitcoin.
Um, but as I told you before you joined
the call, we're planning an event next
year and we wanna get more producers in
the region to start accepting Bitcoin.
Um, but I love that you're doing something
for the farmers because, um, the talk
that I did at the Bush Bash just gone,
uh, was about Bitcoin adoption, and
I kind of focused on three key areas.
The first one is user experience.
The second one is reaching into,
like tapping into subcultures.
And you know, things like I
use some case studies from, um,
Bitcoin based in New Zealand.
They have put together, um,
curated bitcoin educational
sessions just for farmers.
So again, it's taking their unique
situation, needs, desires into
context and applying Bitcoin to that.
A lot of farmers are obviously very like
weather dependent or seasoned dependent.
You know, so kind of understanding hard
money principles really benefits them.
Um, and then the third topic was more
about like, how can we start, um,
engaging with the crypto community
because they're already halfway converted.
They're just.
Haven't heard an opposing view.
A lot of them would be very open.
Some are so deep in, in, in trying to
sell their tokens that they obviously
would be the less, um, open-minded ones.
But there's heaps that are kind of
like, I've had friends that are, you
know, ex shit coins and they're like,
lost a lot of money, shit coining.
And they said, if I just knew
what I know now about Bitcoin, I
could have had so much more money.
And unfortunately, that is the true,
like that is the case for 90% of people.
Um, unless you're some sort of an insider,
which most people aren't, you're probably
gonna, you burn through a lot of money.
Um, but I'm also curious to know
from your YouTube channel, what are
some of the most common, like myths
that you need to bust with nubes?
Like what, what is, what are some of the
persistent things that keep coming up?
Mike: It's a really good question.
I, I, I honestly haven't
found like a common thread.
It has been really, really diverse,
which in some ways is quite good to
see, um, because it's not like, but also
it's not, because if there was a really
obvious one, then I could just make
a video on it and like, there you go.
That one's done.
But, um, yeah, I, I think probably some of
the main things are, um, well, yeah, a lot
of people do come from like, shit corny,
so they just think, well, why, you know,
Casper, I've heard Casper numerous times.
I'm like, oh my God.
And so I did kind of do a video, which
it, it really was more around like why
Bitcoin is a protocol and really digging
into that, like doing deep dive on that.
And really that's the only video that
I would ever send to a ship Coiner.
It's just like, if you watch this
and actually just try and come at it.
Try not to come in with biases, just try
and actually listen to what I'm saying
and then go and do your own research.
Like, I'll even give you links and
stuff to go and do your own research.
Then you can't really argue with it.
Like once you really understand what
the protocol is, then there really
is, everything else is just noise.
It really is.
Um, so yeah, you get, you get
a few people that say that.
A lot of people are just like, oh,
you know, Bitcoin's just a scam.
And like, it's a, you get the, the
standard, like it's a Ponzi scheme.
You can only buy and sell it to,
you can only sell it to someone
that's willing to pay more.
And so it's just kind of like
debunking some of those things.
Um, and a lot of people are so
they, they just still really
believe in the current system.
They, they do not see it as a problem.
They're like, yeah, but
it is you, you know?
So on, on the video, I think I
mentioned something like, how.
Like bank bailouts, you know, and so
Silicon Valley, it had a bailout and,
uh, the big ones in 2008 and you know,
Lehman Brothers and things like that.
And someone commented like, oh yeah,
but that was, you've, you've forgot
to say that was only for like two days
and, and no one actually lost any money.
And it's like, you're missing the point
that is not, you know, there's, there's,
I could list so many other countries where
they have lost their money and stuff.
I'm just kind of showing you the
facts that it is fragile and it
doesn't mean that it's, you're
not going to in the future.
It doesn't mean it is going
to be safe in the future.
I mean, and then a lot of people
are, oh yeah, it's backed by the
government and they can just print the
money and give the money back to you.
It's like, but do you not
understand that's the issue?
Like you are literally
devaluing everyone's money.
You know, when, when they do
that, there's actually a video
I just stumbled across recently.
I have no idea who it was, and he does
a really good job of explaining how.
Your money gets devalued when
things get priced and just sort of,
it, it was more of a small scale.
You know, imagine that you are
in one country and it's like a
hundred pounds circulating around.
If it goes up to 200 pounds, then if you
only had 10 pounds, you've just got like
half the purchasing power of what's,
you know, and just simplified like that.
And it was actually a really good one.
I thought that would've
been a good one for newbies.
Um, but yeah, there's, it, it
is all the gen general stuff,
Quantum's come up, you know, a a
lot of those kind of things come up.
What if the sun
Anja: explodes?
Mike: Oh yeah, internet.
What, what if the internet goes down or
whatever it is, you know, the, all of
that sort of stuff comes up, but there's
not, there's not one common thing.
I wouldn't say it's very, very
diverse, which, like I said, I, I
feel like it's quite a good thing.
'cause yeah, it shows that people
are actually thinking about it.
Anja: Diverse, but I would probably also
assume that nothing new under the sun.
Like are you getting any, any comments
that you're like, oh, I've never
heard or thought of this before?
It's mostly just on, yeah.
Yeah.
Mike: Again, and that's why my
conviction's just gone so high,
particularly these last few years because
I think it was like 2020 where I really
started understanding Bitcoin properly.
Um, but probably 2022 is when
I was totally orange peeled.
It was like, and just, it was just like
fully, like there is no second best.
And what, once you see it,
you just can't go back.
Then, you know, like there's no, and
this is the other thing that I was
saying to a friend the other day.
I was like, I've never met someone
who has gone down the Bitcoin rabbit
hole and then has just had nothing,
wanted, nothing to do with it.
Like once, once I've met someone
that really understands it.
They just want more
and more to do with it.
You know, like I've, I'm still
yet to meet someone that's
like, oh, I really get this now.
And like, Bitcoin's going to it.
It has the potential to do so much.
And then a year later be like,
actually no, it's broken.
I'm not, I'm not, I I'm still yet to
even hear of anyone that's done that.
I know there was people in like the
fork wars, you know, like Craig Wright
era and stuff, who believed that
Bitcoin cash was the real Bitcoin.
So there's obviously people that
have been sort of misled like that.
And actually, that's what I
really think is happening with
this whole core knots thing.
I do think there's gonna be people
that are misled and then maybe give
up on Bitcoin because whatever their
perception of Bitcoin is hasn't been met.
And so then they might remove themselves.
So that, that's, that's really the
threat that I see from this is,
is people getting so fixated on
this and so worked up about it.
Um, but.
Other than those kind of instances,
there's, there's no one that's really
like, fully understood Bitcoin that
has just stopped caring about it.
You know, people only care
more and more about it.
So yeah, I think that's, that's
the thing for me where it's just
like, well, surely this is worth
looking into when you see that.
Or if you can find someone that
doesn't believe in it or, you know,
shares content about this that doesn't
believe in it, please send it to me.
'cause I'd love to see it.
And, um, I have had a couple of people
that send me something, but then
one, one of them was like a BSB guy,
you know, Bitcoin, Satoshi vision.
So again, like just another fork.
And I was like, yeah, he, uh,
he's trying to sell you something.
He's not, it's not that he doesn't
believe in Bitcoin, it is that he
has his own agenda and he is trying
to, trying to sell you something.
But yeah, that's, that's kind
of what I've seen anyway.
It is, um.
It's very diverse.
Anja: Yeah.
I can't think of anyone, but yeah, if I do
come across someone, I will let you know.
Um, but before we wrap up, I'm also very
curious to know who were some of the
biggest, like most influential bitcoiners
or books or podcasts that you've listened
to in your journey that you'd recommend?
Mike: That's a good question.
There's so many, um, obviously like
Andreas Antonopoulos, if you have
the time or desire to go and listen
to Three Hour Joe Rogan podcast, I
would say there, they're so worth.
He didn't it like 20 14, 20 16, you know,
so I didn't listen to them then, but
I've listened to them recently or in more
recent times, and it's just like, oh my
God, this guy, like, he just, he knew it.
He just, he just knew.
He, he just saw it way
before other people really.
And he's, he's, he's pretty
good at explaining it.
I, I find, anyway, it took
me a while to sort of.
Get into his brain if
you, you know what I mean?
So like, I remember hearing
some of his stuff before.
I was just like, oh my God, this guy's
too technical and I can't listen to him.
So I think it helps if you've
already got a bit of an understanding
of Bitcoin to listen to him.
Jeff Booth is probably who I would point
any newbie to, just because I think he's
got such a good way of, that he, he does
focus on the global free market aspect.
And I think that is for, for me
anyway, like I think that's far more
important that people understand
what Bitcoin could be for humanity.
And I think that's what will do a lot of
the orange peel in, um, because I think
it's far bigger than just getting rich
and number go up or anything like that.
Jack Muller's?
Yeah,
Anja: Jack Muller's.
He's so young, but he's so convincing
and I love watching his keynote.
I,
Mike: I've sort of, I dunno, recently
with all his 21 stuff, I've, I'm a bit.
I'm a bit disappointed with what
he is, what he's doing there.
To be honest, I can't, can't blame it.
It is still massive like Bitcoin adoption.
But um, I saw him in Prague and
his speech in Prague was amazing.
He, he sort of talked about how
money has broken so much from
like 1971 and that was, yeah, his,
his talk was really, really good.
Actually.
I really like the Bitcoin way, so like
their whole philosophy and concept.
I saw Michael Jordan, the other, Michael
Jordan saw him in Prague as well.
His talk with there was really good
talking about spending Bitcoin rather
than just only saving and hodd in.
Um, 'cause I think there are the kind
of, are these two separate camps really?
There's the, the Michael sailors, the
institutions about making money number
go up, holding onto it and then there's
the sort of more cipher punk like spend
Bitcoin, make it circular economy, turn
it into this global free market, you
know, so there are kind of two and I don't
see any issue with that at the moment.
All good for Bitcoin
adoption sort of thing.
But yeah, I definitely sway more to
the, uh, global green market side.
Same.
Anja: I will not be satisfied if
Bitcoin is just a store of value.
I would like to see it as a
medium of exchange and I hope
to be around to see that happen.
Mike: Exactly, exactly.
Well, the best book I would
recommend for beginners is, um, the
British case for bi, uh, British
Case for Bitcoin, VJ Boyer, Patti.
That one was probably the book
for me that really clicked.
Um, but yeah, I mean I could literally
list like loads of other books, but those,
that's probably like the main place I
would start for, for beginners anyway.
Anja: Yep.
Sounds great.
I love it.
Um, any final thoughts before we wrap up?
Mike: No, not really.
Other than spend Bitcoin, that that
is literally, that's probably like
the main thing that I would love to.
See more of, and people, and it's
not even just spending it, just ask,
ask people if they accept Bitcoin.
Like I've just, so before our meetup last
month, we were, we, uh, me and a friend
were in a kebab shop, like just near it.
And I just ask, ask everywhere.
I'm like, do you accept Bitcoin?
And it's always a bit like tongue cheek.
I always know what
answer's gonna come back.
But this guy was actually the
owner and he was like, no, why?
Well, I, why should I accept?
And I was like, well you, it was
basically like free fees, like you, you
how I asked him like, how many, what
percent do you pay on your card reader?
And he was like, it's about 1.5%.
I was like, well if you accept
Bitcoin from me now there is no fees.
Just literally download the app,
download wallet of Satoshi on your phone
and I can send you Bitcoin right now.
And it was like, no way.
And he actually did it.
I was like, that, you
know, that's just so cool.
There's also an ice cream truck that
comes near us who has like start,
started taking Bitcoin from me.
And so it is just little
things like that where.
More so than that one person.
It's like the network effect.
And they might go and tell someone
else or be like, there's some guy who's
like paying me in Bitcoin, and you
know, and so it, it's like you just,
you just never know what it will do.
Um, but I, I see that as how it's gonna
reach, like mass adoption really is, is
that, um, spend Bitcoin ask people if
they accept Bitcoin, even if they say
no, it's just getting it in their head.
I think that's, that's a massive thing.
Anja: Yeah, that's one part that I like.
I like spending my Bitcoin, but I'm
so embarrassed to go up to businesses
that I know won't accept it to be
like, Hey, do you accept Bitcoin?
Just like, yeah, I need
to get over that fear.
Um, because I know people who do it.
Mike: I, yeah, I, I've started doing it
in like, Tescos is like a big supermarket
here where I know they're never gonna
say it, but it's not for Tesco's, it's
for that one person I'm interacting with.
It's like, do, do you
accept Bitcoin by a chance?
They're like, no, what's, what's Bitcoin?
I'm like, it opens up a
conversation if nothing else.
And so, um, yeah, but I, my wife is always
like, ah, can you please stop doing that?
Like,
Anja: yep.
I, um, one thing I do do that I like
doing is just wearing like t-shirts.
I was wearing a t-shirt called
Fix the Money, fix the World.
Um, ah, nice.
And I just go get my morning
coffee and every now and again I
will get a person who's like, can
I take a photo of your t-shirt?
Where did you get it from?
Or just a random dude coming up to me.
He's like, that's it,
you're right about that.
And then just walk away.
And I'm like, okay, is he a Bitcoin
or I don't know, but I'm like,
Speaker 3: yeah, that's so good.
Anja: Love it.
Well, thanks so much for your time
and thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 3: Thanks, Annie.
It's been great.
Anja: That's it for this week on
The Honest Money Show, a big shout
out again to shop bitcoin.com au
for making this episode possible.
Until next week, stay smart with
your money and stay decentralized.