Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
What makes Ridge Vineyards one of the most respected wineries in America?
In this episode, Wine Centric sits down with Ridge’s Head of Winemaking & COO, John Olney, and SVP of Global Sales, Michael Torino. Together, they reveal how Ridge built a global reputation while staying deeply rooted in craft, place, and principle.
We get into:
- What “non-interventional” winemaking really means
- The role of corporate ownership—without losing authenticity
- Why vineyard practices matter more than any tech
- How Ridge builds community through the Sommelier Symposium
- Lessons from decades of aging and legacy vintages
For decades, Ridge has defined what great American wine should be. Their consistency, integrity, and deep-rooted commitment to place helped put California on the global wine map.
Whether you're a sommelier, winemaker, or just a fan of iconic American wine, this episode offers an inside look at one of the most respected names in the industry
00:00 Jumping Right In: Tough Questions for Wine Experts
00:00 Jumping Right In: Tough Questions for Wine Experts
00:20 Introducing the Titans of Ridge Vineyards
01:43 Debating America's Top Wineries
04:37 The Legacy and Philosophy of Ridge Vineyards
05:24 Challenges and Variations in Winemaking
08:17 Sales and Production: A Harmonious Relationship
13:22 Corporate Ownership and Quality Commitment
16:58 Exploring Ridge's Signature Wines
24:10 The Influence of French Winemaking on Ridge
27:23 Exploring Natural Winemaking
27:54 Challenges and Techniques in Fermentation
29:06 Ridge's Unique Approach to Winemaking
33:33 The Santa Cruz Mountains Project
36:41 Malolactic Fermentation Explained
38:13 The Role of American Oak in Ridge Wines
41:33 Ridge's Tasting Trials and Team Dynamics
42:47 Building Relationships with Sommeliers
51:25 Memorable Moments with Paul Draper
54:20 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Creators and Guests
Host
Guest
Michael Torino
Michael Torino is Senior Vice President of Global Sales. In this position, Michael oversees our domestic and international distributor network and team of Regional Sales Managers. Michael joined Ridge Vineyards in 2008 as the Eastern Regional Sales Manager and added Export Sales Director, Eastern Canada & The Caribbean as well as National On-Premise Account Manager to his responsibilities during his time in the Eastern Regional role.
What is The Wine Centric Show?
🎙 Bringing wine stories, tips, and expert interviews to everyday wine lovers. 🍷
22 Wine Centric - John and Joseph
===
Matt Weiss: [00:00:00] I like to jump off the cliff right away, like rip the bandaid off. So I'm gonna throw the tough questions at you right away. It's I have a list here of the other four of the top first gross of America, I would like you guys to fill in your four behind ridge. Hello and welcome to the Wine Centric Show where we speak to the titans of the wine industry and oh yeah.
Have we got some titans up with me today? So one of my all time favorite wineries and I never mince words, so I'm just gonna say it. The number one most important winery in America Ridge Vineyards. I have with me the head of wine making and the COO Mr. John Olney. Welcome John.
John Olney: Thanks Matt. It's great to be here.
Matt Weiss: It is great to have you. And because this is a joint effort and goes to show you how Special [00:01:00] Ridge is, I also had to ask my longtime friend who is now the senior Vice President of Global Sales for Ridge Vineyards, Mr. Michael Torino. Welcome Michael.
Michael Torino: Matt. It's always, always good to see you, always good to spend some time, you know, together our relationship goes back almost 20 years and it's uh, it's been a fun ride.
Matt Weiss: It really has been, it's crazy, uh, the relationship that I've had with you and Ridge in general. Um, we are gonna get there, I like to jump off the cliff right away, like rip the bandaid off. So I'm gonna throw the tough questions at you right away. It's like, it's like opening with a fastball. So I hope you guys are ready. I set it in my opener. and there was, you know, you guys have claimed this before, so this is nothing like super controversial, but I would deem if they did, you know, a classification like they did for Bordeaux in 1855 of the first growths of America, like they did in Bordeaux, that ridge would be [00:02:00] number one. So we're just going to agree on that. We're just going to, so I'll take the work guesswork for you guys out of it. I have a list here of the other four of the top first gross of America, and I would like you guys to fill in your four behind ridge. You can choose if you want me to go first, or which one of you wants to go first.
John Olney: Cool.
Matt Weiss: Go ahead, John. You made the first laugh, so I'll call on you.
I, I want you to name who you would say. to Bordeaux's first growths would be the first f first five growths of the United States of America with Ridge.
John Olney: okay.
Matt Weiss: We all agree being number one.
John Olney: Um, I mean, I guess for me, um, you know, I, I think uh, I, I've always liked what Kathy Corson does. Um, you know, um, I think, um, [00:03:00] you know, everything that's being done up at, uh, spring Mountain has always been, um, in that area, you know, cane as well. Um, and, and probably Diamond Mountain, those would be my.
Those are the first ones that come to mind.
Matt Weiss: Okay. Fair. And listen, this might be controversial. You might get some emails, some hate mail, but
John Olney: Yeah. Yeah. I'm expecting it.
Matt Weiss: of your mind.
John Olney: Um.
Matt Weiss: Michael, would you like to go or you want me to go? Your choice.
Michael Torino: yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to go. I think, uh, you know, Risin would be right up there for me as well.
Matt Weiss: Okay.
Michael Torino: I
think Dominus has to make the list, uh, for me, no doubt.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Michael Torino: know, I, I'd probably include Peter Michael in there, you know, and then, uh, I mean the Isley Vineyard, I think, uh, I think that goes in.
Matt Weiss: Okay, fair. I got you. Well I had, if you guys wanted to know, so ridge number one, I had to put Height cellars there as [00:04:00] number two. stags Leap Wine Cellars as number three as far as importance in America. And then it was kind of hard for these next. organize the next three, but I had Opus and Dominus as well. And then I'm cheating here 'cause I had, I had like an honorable mention because nobody would ever put this or think about this, but you really can't talk about American wine making without Constantine Frank up in the Finger Lakes of New York. You know, they really kind of set the mold at least on the east coast and really helped it.
So, so there we go. All, we got that outta the way you guys feeling. All right. You feeling like you still want to go and go forward?
John Olney: We're.
Matt Weiss: you know, they, you guys, like I said, Montebello way back. By Perone was founded, in the mid 19th century.
And then the three engineers led by David Banyan kind of, um, made wine from there in 59. In 62, they incorporated or commercialized and made a winery. And the [00:05:00] story goes on from there as Paul Draper made the winery, made, made the wine since 1969, up until you took over John, uh, in 2021. I mean, you were still making wine there.
Well, 2016 I guess is when Paul stepped aside. My question there, in saying all that is Ridge Montebello specifically at this point is a known entity. You guys are famous for being non interventionalists, for really honoring the land, but how much does that get confusing you have this iconic wine. That people know what it tastes like. They know they have an idea of it, and then every vintage, it's kind of gotta taste like that. Do you know what I mean?
John Olney: Yeah, no, I think I know what you mean. Um, you know, obviously there's, you know, when you make a wine for as long as, as we have, and it kind of has the spotlight on it, like you say, there's sort of an expectation of a certain style. [00:06:00] Um, you know, and I think in that regard, one of the great things, and I I give, you know, I think we give Paul a lot of credit for this, is that, you know, the wine, you know, in the wine business, there's, there's, there's, there's tastes, there's fads that come and go.
I mean, I can remember, you know, going all the way back into the late eighties, early nineties, if we talk about Zinfandel, late Harvest was like, you know, it was a really big thing. And then we had the super ripe zinfandels. And, and really if you look at, you know, I mean, I, I'm, I'm. Getting off base a little bit in terms of Montebello, but same idea, if you look at guys that we, we've been making it in the same way.
Um, you know, it's, it's still, um, meant to be elegant, balanced, um, and made to live, um, you know, not super alcoholic. So I think, I think just by sticking to that certain, um, style of wine and not really chasing, you know, fads, that sort of thing, I think that's helped us a lot. [00:07:00] Um, but then to your point, and especially with Montebello, you know, we do have, being up here on the mountain, um, in a climate that sees probably a little bit more, um, you know, a, a little bit more variability than you do maybe down in the valley.
Um, and also the fact that in any given vintage, you know, we're tasting all of the individual blocks blind, and then we're picking out the ones that we think are gonna make the best wine. So you can see a variation. Um, for example, you know, um, in 2023, um, it was, it was a, a tough year for Merlot and we only had about eight or 9% of Merlott in the, in the Montebello.
This year, in 24 we've got 17%.
Matt Weiss: Hmm.
John Olney: Um, so, you know, you do see those, those kind of differences. But, um, you know, I think we, we have been, and, and certainly it's not our, our, our aim to really change the style. So I think anything that we do change, um, you know, if we're shifting, um, between [00:08:00] Coopers and that sort of thing, I think they're fairly subtle changes.
So there's nothing radical, um, that, you know, is gonna really make a major shift.
Matt Weiss: So if
John Olney: if.
Matt Weiss: kind of summarizing what you're saying, it's like you have a guideline, you have a benchmark, and you are in some ways trying to hit that. And I guess like. Even getting down to the nitty gritty, and Michael, you please weigh in here because I think it's important, the idea of sales and, and the reason, you know, might ask, oh, well you have the winemaker.
Why do you need the sales guy? Well, I think that's such an important part of Ridge's story and how long you've been there, et cetera. So I don't need to validate why you're here, but I, I just did. Uh, so my, my wife asked me, well, why do you have the sales guys on? Well, it's
John Olney: Hmm.
Matt Weiss: part of the story.
It's really important because you're also, intimately involved in a lot of choices, I assume. I think so. So I guess, um, well, I should start there, Michael. Are, do you get involved in the blending trials? Do you get invited up there?
Michael Torino: No. So sales has always been disconnected from that portion of it. Um, [00:09:00] production has always led ridge, which, which I think is the right way to do it. And then, you know, we take it that step further. We take it to the market. We kind of explain the differences from year to year on the variation and the nuances.
And, you know, as John was kind of talking about, um, the assemblage process, a core thing that Ridge has always done. And, and this was another thing that Paul brought in at the end of the assemblage process, you know, the team tastes that vintage blind versus the prior five vintages. So even though there's, you know, variation or like John said, we may use some different Coopers each year, there's nuances, you know, the line connects across those, those five vintages into that six vintage every year at the assemblage,
Matt Weiss: Yeah,
Michael Torino: that really keeps it on track, right?
Matt Weiss: yeah, yeah. And I guess that's kind of answers my question 'cause it's like I'm thinking if I'm tasting a wine blind, right? And I have no preconceived notion, I mean, obviously it's not completely blind. You know where the wine's coming from. You have an idea of the potential varietals. But in your head, and John, you can speak to this, you're thinking, I would [00:10:00] assume you're thinking, does, is this a great wine right now? does it my thought of what Montebello tastes like and often not. Hopefully, maybe they're one and the same.
John Olney: Yeah. And you know, I, I also, I also think that that's kind of one of the magics of when you're dealing with a a, a vineyard like Montebello is that. You know, it, it really is such a, a unique place to, to be growing the Bordeaux varietals that, you know, it, it tends to just bring itself out. In other words, I mean, we probably could do enough wine making things to, to disguise it, but since that's not our aim, I think Montebello kind of on its own, almost always tastes like Montebello.
If, if that
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
John Olney: sense.
Matt Weiss: No, that makes total sense. And I should clarify all this. And by the way, the conversation I think is probably the same for your other signature wines of being Litten Springs in Geyserville, which are, uh, we'll get to as [00:11:00] well. But I want to clarify for maybe if you're new to the game or you don't even know what Montebello is.
Montebello is this unbelievable high elevation vineyard that makes some of the best Cabernet Sauvignon in the world, certainly in California. And uh, to give you a reference point, it's kind of high top above Apple, right? Where, uh, apple is in Cupertino, right. You guys can almost look down on, uh,
John Olney: Yeah, we can look down. We do look down on it. It's a funny juxtaposition. You know, I mean we're, we're, we're up on this mountain, um, complete agricultural sort of environment and we're looking down on the Silicon Valley. So it's uh, it's interesting.
Matt Weiss: And you were founded by engineers. So there's kind of, there's
John Olney: There's that connection as well. Yeah.
Matt Weiss: harmony there. okay. So. you've been with Ridge since 2008, is that right? To 17 years. Really worked your way up through the ranks. Um, I have to imagine, like, was this [00:12:00] a, a dream job for you going out and be honest with us, like maybe it wasn't and maybe it has become that.
Michael Torino: Yeah, no, it, it, it definitely was. Um, you know, I was, I was in the wine business prior, uh, came to the restaurant side, was in the wine business through wholesale, and then I was working at Bonnie Dune Vineyard at the time.
Matt Weiss: That's right.
Michael Torino: yeah, so I was at Bonnie Dune and, and uh, Ridge kind of came calling as they needed somebody for the East coast initially.
And yeah, I mean, it was a dream job for me. I mean, Ridge was always a brand that I sold in wholesale, I sold in restaurants. So I admired and thought the world of, and when the opportunity came up, it was just perfect. It was, it was the right fit.
Matt Weiss: And you talk about the stability of Ridge versus the, let's say ever changing nature of Randall Graham and his, uh, famed pons, uh, of Bonnie Dune vineyards. I can imagine.
Michael Torino: That that's right. I mean, while I was there, I was there for about five years. You know, it was like three different companies over those five years. It was, you know, through the sale of Big House, through Pacific Rims splitting off [00:13:00] on its own and uh, you know, all that stuff.
Matt Weiss: That's crazy. Yeah. What a, what a life. Okay. to ridge. And, you know, you guys are one of the most transparent wineries there is out there. Everything that you goes into, your wine goes on your label. All, all your vineyards are certified organic as of 2022. All your estate vineyards. And I think one thing that, um, I don't know gets lost is that you guys are owned by a corporation and I think I. That's okay because it is what, what I come to know as your guys' story. It's an amazing fusion, right? And that's, I think, tells the narrative of why we have the winemaker and the salesperson here because you have taken the resources that a corporation give you, given you maintain the intentionality and the through point of a winemaker like Paul Draper and his predecessors. And, [00:14:00] and, and, and today just taken the best of grapefruit into the best of a corporate business structure, letting the passion shine through. I laid it out for you. How would you guys talk and speak to the success of what Ridge has become, John?
John Olney: sure. You know, I mean, um, you know, the, the, the, the story, sort of the evolution of, of Ridge, I mean, it was, you know, if you go back to the sixties and you read some of the, the, the old kind of anecdotes about Ridge, I mean, it, it was, you know, it was a shoestring operation. And, um, you know, when Paul came on, what he realized, um, and, and I think a, a big part of the vision of of Paul that that really keeps us going, um, these days, is that he, he understood that, you know, if you're gonna make great wine over a long time from great Vineyards, at some point you need to own those vineyards.
[00:15:00] Um, you know, how else are you gonna control the farming? Um, you know, and in any given year, if you're buying from a farmer, they can, they can just say, I'm selling to someone else. you know, it be it became pretty obvious that, you know, we needed, we just needed some more financial backing in order to be able to do that.
And, you know, Paul was approached by any number of corporations, um, that he passed on. And, um, you know, when we finally, you know, he finally formed the partnership with, uh, Otsuka Pharmaceutical. He was really forming that, you know, with, with the owner who was a ridge, um, you know, a, a ridge collector. And, uh, I recently had the, the opportunity actually go to Japan and visit, um, their, their headquarters.
And I was really, I was really taken just by the commitment to quality there. So I think it's actually, um, it's, it's just been a great, great partnership really for us.
Matt Weiss: Let the people who know wine run the winery.
John Olney: [00:16:00] Yeah. You know, I mean, they're, they're, you know, they want us to make the best wines possible and, and that's what, you know, Ridge has always wanted to do. So it's a mutual goal.
Matt Weiss: would you do you have the same sentiment or do you add anything to it?
Michael Torino: no, I, I definitely do. You know, it's, they're incredibly supportive. Um, they're very hands off in terms of the day-to-day management and, uh, how we operate. And, and as John said, you know, they really support the, the mission that we're on to make the best wines possible. Uh, but they're there when, when we need them.
When we've had the opportunities to purchase some of these vineyards, they've, they've been able to support us and help us through those processes. And, uh, you know, a big part of the, part of the marriage that works is they're not, you know, investing in any other wineries. They don't own other wineries. They're not doing this to try and build this kind of wine conglomerate that you see these other companies get into trouble with when they go down that road.
That's
Matt Weiss: Right.
Michael Torino: vision or the mission that they've ever had.
Matt Weiss: Right. Yeah. And I think it speaks to who you guys are today. let's talk about the wines. [00:17:00] Um, you know, right now behind me, I don't know if you can see, but I have, uh, the three valleys. I have the Paso Robles Inn, the East bench, and then I have two great vintages of the estate cab. My son's vintages, the 2016 and the 2019. Um, and I had some Montebello, but I didn't bring it out because, uh, I didn't wanna stand it up before I, I wanted to drink it, but I just wanted to show you that, uh, you know, I actually, like many people think that I'm a collector, but I'm actually not that big of a collector because I've been. gifted a lot of wines from back in the day of being coming up in the industry. But for those wines, I specifically, before I represented them in this area, went and sought them to start my son's collection because I want them to have a collection of their birth year or so. There we go. Um, Michael, I wanted to ask you as far as pushback we talked [00:18:00] about before we get into the wines, we talked about you know, that idea and there are some sommelier wine professionals who might like poo pooh that idea, like, oh, it's, you know, you're owned by a corporation. Um, shame on you. Do you get that in the market? And if not, what are some of like the negative things you get in the market or like the b the barriers for ridge wines?
Michael Torino: Yeah. You know, we don't get that. It's, um, it's really amazing. It, um, it's rare that people even know that we're owned by a corporation.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Michael Torino: you know, the vast majority of people still think Paul owns Ridge, you know, outright. Um, more often than not, when they do find out we're owned by a corporation, they're surprised.
And then, uh, they're almost more surprised by how we haven't changed and how we're not driven by corporate, um, and, and kind of respect that relationship. So that's kind of the bigger surprise that we see there. And then in terms of pushback from, from the market, um, you know, we don't get much pushback in general.
Um, you [00:19:00] know, Zinfandel's kind of had its day where it's been, you know, taken, taken to the map multiple times. So oftentimes we hear comments about Zen in general, that it's. Kind of a tough category maybe doesn't sell. But, uh, you know, when it comes to wines like Geyserville and Linton Springs, we come back to the wine and the vineyard, and it's really not, you know, it's a Zinfandel based wine, but they're much more complex than that.
There's a lot more going on between the vineyard, the, the blend that goes in it, the, uh, you know, varietals beyond Zinfandel. So more often than not, when, when something like that comes up, I just, you know, let's taste it. Let's, let's forget all that and taste it.
Matt Weiss: That really is an amazing thing that you guys have not only built that on, you know, cabernet, but Zinfandel based blends, which most people think. And, and the signature of your winery is balance and agility of your wines. And yet Zindel is thought of as this like really rich overripe grape. But I think, um, you know, it's, it speaks to who you [00:20:00] guys are.
And also John, I know you know this but the, but the field blends that you have out there, right? Is what. Really balances out that Zinfandel. Can you speak to those?
John Olney: to Mike's point, I mean I, you know, I, I see it out in the market and you know, I get a lot of people say, you know, how do you guys sell Zinfandel? I mean, my gosh, we can't. So, you know, one of the things I say is we don't really sell Findel. You know, we sell Geyserville, we sell Litten Springs, and you know, so I think just the fact that, um, you know, I think Ridge kind of got a headstart in this findel world having, you know, made, started making single vineyards in Geyserville in 1966, PA Robles in 1967.
So, you know, um, you know, Paul and, and, and the team really had, had an opportunity to really hand select some of the very, very best vineyards. So that's what we get to work with. And, um, probably most of those are field blends, which, um, you know, I think it's a critical part of what makes a great Zinfandel vineyard.
[00:21:00] Um, you know, the, it's, it's, um, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty uncanny just the way those, those various grape varietals compliment each other. You know, you've got, you've got all that real ripe raspberry fruit from the Zinfandel. And yet the Caron brings that zingy fruit that you really need, um, you know, due to the ripeness of the Zi.
And then you, you have the petit SRA in the background, which is giving you that color, that tannin. Um, and Petit SRA is such a, it's an interesting grape. I think it's such an amazing blending grape because it's, it's, it's not like Syrah, which kind of wants to take over, you know, it's much more of a dominant, very varietal.
So it comes in, it gives the color, it gives the tannin, and yet it doesn't really try to, you know, change the overall, uh, flavor profile of the wine
Matt Weiss: I, I never really define that, what the difference is. I mean, Petit Rah and Rah, I mean, we know Shiraz and their history of it from, I think ancient Persia. But where, what's [00:22:00] the origins of Petit Rah and were they ever linked?
John Olney: Yeah. So Petite Sera is actually a, a cross between Syrah and, um. Um, what's called, uh, Pean, which is a basically forgotten grape from, uh, the south of France. Um, and then Sara is actually its own, you know, original grape if you will.
Matt Weiss: Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. And you guys are also, we're making a a hundred percent petite zarah. we still making that wine?
John Olney: Yeah, we still do make a hundred percent Petra from, uh, from Litton Springs. And you know, of course we used to make the York Creek.
Matt Weiss: Yeah. And by the way, John, we didn't really, uh, honor your background, but the, uh, resume is pretty impressive. I want to say, I'm gonna get there in a moment, but before, I'm just gonna take a little break because you guys look a little tired and I wanted to send some coffee your way. So this is a cool thing I did with a local roastery. We made the Taste Maker series. [00:23:00] I think, I feel like you guys would be very akin or synergistic with this coffee. It's a single origin blend of coffee and, um. It's made with this Pacamara, uh, which is kind of like a varietal. And they, they do this really interesting, uh, roasting process where it's still in the cherry, which is the natural process, which is very difficult. Anyway, uh, this is the Carbo Coffee roasters, this really roastery out there near me in Carbo, North Carolina. And, uh, I'm gonna send you guys some of this, so
John Olney: Cool.
Matt Weiss: your coffee and wake up a little bit.
John Olney: Looking forward to it.
Michael Torino: you're, you're speaking our language. I
John Olney: Yeah.
Michael Torino: I mean, I'm a nerd about coffee.
Matt Weiss: Are you
Michael Torino: up to me all day long. I mean, he's got a Ferrari coffee maker at home like he is.
John Olney: Yeah. No, no, we're, we're, we'll put it to use. Look forward to it.
Matt Weiss: maker? Uh, John
John Olney: It is, uh, marza.
Matt Weiss: Omar Zko. Okay. I don't even know what that is.
John Olney: It's basically [00:24:00] the coffee machine every time you go into uh you know, a high-end coffee shop. It's that one with a nice little curve and everything on it.
Matt Weiss: Okay. Gotcha. We'll have to, uh, show it in the show notes. Um, so John, you know, you're making, you're making California fruit from Old Vines, but you're training goes back to some of the top names in France, you worked with Alberta, Elaine, it doesn't get any bigger than that domain De La Romani Conti, although I think you worked at his boozer on spot, that still qualifies. you worked with S Shave, which is one of the best Northern Row producers, if not the best. And then you worked with Tempier, which is the top band, Al Producer. how does that influence, I mean, how did that set you up to work with California Fruit?
John Olney: Well, I think if you, you know, if you take it back maybe one step, um, you know, and, and, and talking a little bit about what we, what we started with, you know, my first job, I, I met Car Lynch, um, when I was in France, um, down in Provence. And that was, that was [00:25:00] where I, you know, that was the first job. He offered me a job, and that's how I first came to California.
So I started working in the import business. So I, I, I, you know, my first, um, experience in wine was, was through sales, which, you know, these days, I think, you know, I, I, I, I realize how valuable that actually was, um, just to have that experience on the front end. Um, but of course, you know, Kermit, you know, being, you know, specializing.
In, you know, just French wines that, you know, really gave me a, a focused, um, insight on, on those types of wines. And my uncle was a, um, a food and wine writer, um, as well. And he lived in Provence. And, um, you know, I, I just by tasting wines out of his cellar, I just had this amazing exposure to really many of the great wines of the world.
So that was sort of the, the background that had been laid. But then, you know, in terms of, I think what we talk about in terms of, you know, at Ridge, you know, [00:26:00] sort of traditional wine making and which, you know, in simple words, I think is based on, you know, just like in cooking, if you get the right ingredients, then you, you know, then traditional more hands-off wine making works because you don't have to do as much to the, to the fruit.
You don't have to manipulate it. 'cause it's kind of, you know, it's all right there. And, you know, so that's, that's really what I learned, but got to learn it in sort of different, different contexts, right? So you're starting with sort of a mix based on more Vera, then you're moving up to pure Syrah, and then of course Pinot being a whole different, uh, whole different animal.
So it was an amazing experience. Um, you know, and then, and, and when I was done with that and I came back to the States, you know, kind of looking around, um, and I'd met Paul before, you know, Ridge was just kind of the natural choice, um, in terms of, you know, the approach that they were taking to, to wine making.
Um, you know, and it's, it's, it's a great place to work too. So, sure. [00:27:00] It was kind of a natural, I love.
Matt Weiss: explanation. I was watching a video of him where he said the reason that he took the natural wine making approach. I mean, yes, that's what he believed in, but also it was the winemakers at uc Davis and thought, thinking about going to knowledge school meant that he had to learn a lot of science.
And he is like, oh, I didn't like science and I wasn't good at
John Olney: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Matt Weiss: but I could look back at the, at the natural wine making process. However, you know, ancestors did it and do that. that's classic Paul story. Um, what, when you guys say this non-interventionist, non-intervention wine making so is it all natural yeasts in every bottling?
John Olney: Yeah. So it's, it's all natural yeas. Um, it's,
Matt Weiss: a yeast and then pitch it or you just let it run naturally?
John Olney: we just let it run naturally. Obviously, if we have, you know, once harvest gets started, if we have a. [00:28:00] Um, you know, a fermentation that comes in and it's sluggish getting started. We can take some, you know, we can pitch it from another tank. Um, you know, we don't add malolactic bacteria, so malolactic, just ba basically happens on its own.
which in some cases, especially with the chardonnay, is a good thing because that leaves some CO2 in the, in the wine while it's going through malolactic and barrel. we really haven't seen the need, you might say, to use things like enzymes to extract color, we get, we get all the color we need, um, you know, from our grapes. just the basics of SO two tarter acid when it's needed. Usually in Zinfandel, um, you know, with Montebello. We we're fortunate to have such great acidity, um, here up at the mountain that we actually have to deacidify it sometimes,
Matt Weiss: That's amazing. Is that a common practice if you have too high acid, or would other people add sugar, capitalize?
John Olney: I think if it's just a question of really low p pH and high acid, then, then deac acidifying, whether it's with potassium or [00:29:00] calcium, is, is, is what you would do. Um, you know, capitalization is much more question of if you don't have enough sugar,
Matt Weiss: You know, I have to say, I think that one of the microcosms and the keys to ridge's success because like all this thing where I'm thinking about, oh, what am I gonna ask these guys and how am I gonna, what's the narrative? And I'm thinking about like, it's just amazing how. And I've used this word before, how iconic you've become.
But when you think about that, you think about the and interventionalist, winemaking. You think about that versus what was popular in the Napa Valley, the fact that you're not Napa Valley with Santa Cruz and Sonoma, and you know, all the things that go into those.
What was, you know, big in the 1990s, and I'll say the word was Parkerized wines, big alcohol, big color, voluptuous fruit. And you guys are the antithesis of that, even through the popularity of those times. And I have to ask, I mean, Michael, you weren't around them, but like, [00:30:00] you probably have heard the stories of the salespeople knocking on the doors and being like, guys, we gotta put more alcohol on this line.
We gotta use some mega purple, we gotta do this. Like, do those conversations ever creep in?
Michael Torino: Yeah. No, they, they certainly do. I mean, we get asked all the time how we, we didn't take those trends and, you know, as much as cabs and ization. It was also, you know, times when Zen producers were pushing 18% alcohol and, you know, bragging about it. We, we never did that either. We stayed, you know, balanced and steady and stayed the course.
And now, you know, you see producers are returning to that.
Matt Weiss: I also think about, and John, I wonder if this keeps you up at night, but like. The natural fermentation route, non pitching yeast just leads to so many variables. You know, just to take this back and like give this some context, you know, I always say, um, the winery, the wineries that I like, the wines that I like to drink are about farming, meaning that you grow the best possible fruit, the best possible [00:31:00] grapes you can because wine is an agricultural product and you, you pick the grapes, you crush it into juice, and naturally voila, it turns into wine, right?
Like, that's, that's the ideal if we can do that. But it doesn't always happen that way. And there's so many variables, especially with California weather these days. Like how do you, how do you remain calm when all of these variables are happening on a daily basis on your wines?
John Olney: it's not the easiest route, um, you know, um, to, to take, um, because. You know, really what, what, to me, what it's really, what it's all about is we're giving up a certain amount of control over the process. You know, that's, that's, you know, sometimes I call it like faith-based wine making, or you're just kind of believing in the process.
Um, so yeah, you are, you are taking some chances in terms of, you know, coming out of fermentation with higher VAs, possibility of bries, you know, creeping in. So there's a lot more to, to watch, you know, that's why both of our wineries [00:32:00] have pretty sophisticated labs, so, you know, so that we're really able to monitor, um, you know, regularly in real time, um, and, and intervene where we need to.
So it's, it's, it's more difficult. Yeah. But, um, it's something we've been doing, you know, I think long enough that, that, that, you know, you kind of get, get into the rhythm, so to speak.
Matt Weiss: And you kind of have workarounds that are more natural rather than intervention
John Olney: Exactly. Yeah. And, and we've also, you know, Ridge Ridge, I think one of the things that Paul brought to, to Ridge was, was the whole notion of, of declassification. In other words, you know, it's a foregone conclusion, whether it's Litten Springs, Geyserville, Montebello, that we don't expect to use every single vineyard parcel in the blend.
There's always gonna be some that, whatever. Maybe the weather wasn't quite ready great over in that corner of the vineyard. Maybe the, maybe the fermentation went a little sideways. It's not bad, but it's [00:33:00] not, you know, it's just, it's, it's, we don't wanna put that in the Geyserville, you know, and those are things that we then sort of blend.
And that's, you know, that's where three Valleys comes from.
Matt Weiss: right? Yeah. So essentially it's like, it's like the Bordeaux model. Where you have a first wine, first growth, and then kind of whatever doesn't make it into that goes into your second bottling. Um, which is not a bad thing. It's still that second bottling is great wine, but it's just Yeah, it's right. It's a exactly,
of the top wines.
John Olney: still a great bottle and you know, better price point and it allows us to make our single vineyards that much better.
Matt Weiss: Which, uh, reminds me of something you guys are coming out with a new project. Um, I know, I know you've talked about it, so I'm not like breaking news, but you're going back actually to the future in an old label, which you guys used to call the Santa Cruz Mountains and, and you used to call the chardonnay, that as well if memory serves, uh, with a, so a third tier Cabernet.
So you have the Montebello, you have the estate cabernet, like I've got back there, and now you're gonna be releasing a Santa Cruz. What was [00:34:00] the thoughts behind that?
John Olney: Mike, you want to want to start with it and I can kind of fill in.
Michael Torino: sure. I'd love to. Um, you know, so Montebello and Estate Cab, first and foremost are so successful and they're so small production, they sell, they sell out, you know, are on allocation every year. And, um, you know, Montebello is only so big, there's only so much fruit we can grow there and only so much, you know, wine we can produce from that vineyard.
So we, we've kind of internally talked about this for years. finally, uh, you know, in 2023, the opportunity came up where we said, you know, we, we can go out and. Source some fruit from neighbors on the mountain, from a few other vineyards in the Santa Cruz mountains and make an Appalachian based wine and kind of resurrect that Santa Cruz mountains label.
Um, but make it a true Appalachian wine. 'cause in the past that was all of our own estate fruit. It was what the estate cabernet has become today. Uh, we never sourced open for that, but uh, in, in this scenario, we're able to source, create this incredible wine, um, helps us kind of put a [00:35:00] flag on the Santa Cruz mountains, which we've always, you know, kind of fought to, uh, to do. And, you know, comes in at a lower price point than a state cab and gives us three, you know, separate Cabernet price points to hit with three escalating qualities of wine. And kind of a bigger story to tell. Uh, we just see the success of, of the estate cabin, how quick it sells out. So the ability to do something else in Cabernet made a lot of sense for us.
Matt Weiss: So essentially to break that down, you always had Montebello and then the Cabernet that didn't make go into Montebello. to go into a Santa Cruz Appalachian, which was Allstate, that bottling then became the Cab Estate Cabernet, and now you're sourcing other fruit in the, in the Santa Cruz area to make this Cabernet Santa Cruz Cabernet. will the same thing happen with Chardonnay? I.
John Olney: I think that's less likely. You know, I mean, there's just less of it. Um, you know, and I think also, you know, in, in the, in the [00:36:00] chardonnay. Arena, um, you know, we've been planting some more Chardonnay, so I think that we're able to generate, I think, uh, more on our own. Um, but you know, there's a conversation there still probably.
Matt Weiss: Okay, because I know in my day job, a lot of people are bothering me asking why they didn't get any chardonnay this year because the 2023 just got came out and Jeb Dunnick gave it a hundred, or Virginia from Jeb Dunnick gave it a hundred points. So and I know that you guys have planted more.
There's, I think, what another four and a half acres or something coming online for the Chardonnay.
John Olney: Yep, yep. Exactly.
Matt Weiss: Okay, good. Well I, for 1:00 AM looking forward to that. And so John, just explain that to me because, first of all, the, the fermentation. For those of you who are listening and don't know what malolactic fermentation is, it's uh, essentially the creaminess that comes outta wine.
All red wines, for the most part go through it and some white wines go through it. I like to, [00:37:00] um, we talked about coffee earlier. My best analogy for that is if people like and it starts out as black coffee, well, malolactic is like adding the creamer. that's kind of what malal, but it's a secondary fermentation, and so that happens naturally as well with the, with the Chardonnay, you don't, you guys don't do anything for that.
John Olney: Correct. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so basically, you know, it, it, it's, it's the, you know, natural conversion of malic acid, which is the acid of the apple into lactic acid, which is more the acid of milk. So that's where you get that softening that you mentioned. And again, you know, we're, we're fortunate to have, you know, enough natural acidity so that when our chardonnays go through that, uh, mal fermentation and it drops the acid down, we still have enough, you know, firm acidity to have a balanced wine.
But yeah, it, it, it, it happens naturally and, uh, you know, we're keeping the chardonnay usually at a cooler temperature, which slows down the malolactic fermentation. So, you know, our malolactic could happen anywhere, you know, November [00:38:00] after harvest, um, through April or or May. So,
Matt Weiss: And does it go through 100%? did
John Olney: yeah.
Matt Weiss: go through?
John Olney: Um, yeah. All, all of our wines, um, always go through ally.
Matt Weiss: Go through a hundred percent. Okay. The other thing that's unique about your winery is always. For the most part, steadfastly, American Oak. Um, real quick for those listening again, because I wanna keep this approachable to everybody. So the difference is, uh, a lot of wineries would use French Oak. Very general level gives you much more of baking spices. Think vanilla, think butter, scotch and caramel. Um, kind of, for those of you who like bourbon, you know, it always has to go in a chardo barrel. Bourbon does versus American Oak gives you more savory spices, dill, herbs, things like that. I know because Michael, we're gonna get into this, but I was at the first ever Ridge Symposium.
Thank you very much. One of the best wine trips in my [00:39:00] entire life. Um, what that you guys have done lots of trials. You, uh, have gone Slovenia and Oak. You've tried French Oak, and it just always comes back to the American Oak. Why do you guys think that is?
John Olney: you know, I, I think the, the origins of of of, you know, sort of our, our, our commitment to American Oak, you know, goes back to if you have to go back to, you know, say the late 1960s and, and seventies, and at that time. Um, you know, in California we were just sort of discovering the idea of small cooperage, right?
I mean, for years and years and years, uh, most American or California wine had been, you know, blended in, in big redwood uprights. So, um, most of, of California was sort of leaning towards French oak and, you know, and at that time, you know, you had Napa who was starting to, you know, try to put Cabernet on the world map.
And, [00:40:00] and you know, Paul sort of looked at all the possibilities out there and he said, you know, we're not really out here trying to make Montebello taste like a Bordeaux. You know, we want it to just taste like Montebello, and we think we can get the quality. We think Montebello can handle the American Oak, so let's just source it local and let's just work with the Coopers we have here.
And that's kind of how it started. Um, and you know, when you, when you kind of, when you start. Talking a little bit about, you know, where we started in terms of the style of the wine. It really is, you know, it really does become part of the whole flavor profile of that wine. It's one of the things that I think, you know, helps you recognize, you know, Montebello for being what it is.
Um, you know, so, you know, we, we, we've been really happy with it. I mean, we always throw in a, a handful of French Coopers that we taste blind, you know, just to, in some ways just to kind of reconfirm, um, where we are in, in, in American Oak. [00:41:00] But, you know, if anything, I think the, the, the quality of the Cooperage has just, you know, gotten better and better in the United States so that the differences, I think that, that once were there, you know, in, in terms of maybe American Oak being, being criticized for being a bit more crude, um, or harsh, I think was much more related to, um, you know, just the, the, the, the cooperage that had not quite matured to the point where it needed to be for making wine barrels.
Matt Weiss: Hmm.
John Olney: So the quality of the Cooperage
Matt Weiss: Is, is there ever a time in your tasting trials behind the scenes? Uh, and by the way, how does it work? Like so you have a wine maker at Montebello. You, you have a wine maker, Shauna, at, uh, Litton Springs, and then you, they kind of both, I guess, report into you for flow short speak. How many people are involved in the tasting trials and, and how that [00:42:00] works between the two separate wineries?
John Olney: so for Montebello, when we do the assemblers, Montebello is, is, is the most, um, the most involved of the tastings that we do. So when we get together and we do assembly stations for Montebello, um, we're usually about a group of eight. So the vineyard team joins us, um, and then everyone in production, um, Paul usually sits in on those.
Um, so it's, it is about, you know, roughly eight people.
Matt Weiss: Has there ever been a year where there was like. Serious contention about guys, the French oak barrels are really, really showing. Well, I think we need to look at them.
John Olney: I, I, I cannot remember that ever happening.
Matt Weiss: Okay. It's unanimous. Um, Michael, the other thing about Ridge, and we've talked about it, is the, the affinity by the, how they've been embraced by the wine community professionals and [00:43:00] consumers alike. You guys have a long history of reaching out to sommelier and wine professionals. How do you cultivate that and continue it forward?
Michael Torino: Yeah. Well, and you touched on it earlier, things like the Psalm Symposium. I mean, that's been one of our best ways to really get these deep relationships with, with soms and with the wine community. Um, and really our, our team of sales managers, you know, both Katie and the export world, overseeing international and the team domestically here, um, they're constant out in the market tasting with soms, you know, engaging at events and making sure, uh, you know, we're front and center and relevant with the SOM community and the wine community.
Matt Weiss: I have to wonder what does it, I'm asking for a friend. No. Um, and, and actually you just hired somebody that I used to work with, but like, what are some of the things that you look for when you're hiring somebody to rep represent Ridge in the market? Like what are some of the non, you know, thing, things that you would not, could not live [00:44:00] without?
Michael Torino: Yeah, I don't, I don't, I, I mean, I don't know if there's a, a certain checklist. It's really down to the individual and, and who they are. And, you know, Brian, who you're speaking of, you know, he was a perfect fit for us, right? He had experienced across multiple states, really understands fine line. I mean, I think that's probably one of the main criteria they have to understand wine and be passionate about it.
It's not just the sales job. It's really about loving, you know, the industry that we're in and, you know, the, the kind of lifestyle that it leads to. It's food, wine, it's. You know, a whole part of it. Um, and that ability to connect with people, make relationships, develop these deep relationships. I mean, you know, as soon as we hired him, he reached out to me and I, I got probably texts from, you know, 50 different people.
Wow. Great. Hire, like that's a perfect fit.
Matt Weiss: Yeah, that's good validation for sure. Um, the sommelier symposium not I, I don't know of any other American wineries that do this. Maybe they do some, but essentially. I think it was 20 2011 was the first one. Is that [00:45:00] right?
Michael Torino: That's
right.
Matt Weiss: So for now, uh, what's that? 14 years you guys have invited? Uh something like 10 sommelier from around the country.
10 prominent or up and coming sommelier from around the country And take us What, what happens on the Psalm symposium?
Michael Torino: Yeah, exactly. So we, we do, um, we're up to 14 now. We bring a couple people from export as well this year or, or every year now. So two people from the international world come. So we've had, uh, people as far as Tokyo come to
Matt Weiss: Oh, wow.
Michael Torino: um, several attendees from the uk, some Canada folks Norway. So great representation.
Um, you know, the international distribution piece is so big to us being in 60 countries and. Uh, it, it's always been an important thing, and Paul always said it, you know, if you want to have an international reputation, you have to have international distribution. So it's been, uh, front and and center for us for a long time.
Um, but at the som symposium, we bring this group, uh, they spend three days with us. We go, uh, spend a day at Montebello, spend time in the vineyards, [00:46:00] the sellers, uh, with the full production and vineyard team. We do library tastings, dinners, uh, Michelin Star restaurants, and then we go to Litton Springs and kind of do it all over again there between Geyserville and Litton Springs.
And it's, uh, it's a way for people really to, to kind of see everything. The curtains pulled back, they get full exposure to the entire team at Ridge. They can ask us any questions they want and really understand, uh, you know, the vineyards and just as importantly the people and what goes on behind the scenes at Ridge.
Uh, and they leave and they become lifelong friends.
Matt Weiss: I am an example of that. Um, it's amazing and, uh, if you're a wine professional out there, I don't know, how do you get on your radar to get in, get invited to that?
Michael Torino: Yeah, so the regional team, you know, as they're out there every year, they kind of run their short list as they meet people and, uh, you know, they kind of keep notes and they're like, oh, this would be a good candidate, this would be a good candidate. And, uh, once we get into the, the new year, we always kind of go through that list and really talk through and we try and spread it [00:47:00] out between the regions, you know, one person from New York, one Chicago, maybe a Texas, a Florida, and, and kind of really spread it out as we go.
Um, and it's, it's really no secret sauce. It's not a sales program. Uh, it's really people that we think we can connect with and can become, you know, lifelong ambassadors for Ridge.
Matt Weiss: Abso Well, I'll just say it. Hey guys, it's, um, for those of you listening be like, shit, how do I get on that? Um, I poured. Three valleys by the glass at a very prominent steakhouse in New York City. And I'm not saying that that was the reason, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have depletion. So here's a little tips and tricks. Um, the three, the, the three valleys comes in kegs. So that's 26 bottles every time you deplete a keg that'll get on somebody's national radar for depletions. Okay. Uh, I just helped you out there, Michael. You're welcome. You can
Michael Torino: I appreciate that. 'cause I will say we've never invited somebody who's never carried our wine.
Matt Weiss: yes,
Michael Torino: there is that.
Matt Weiss: you go. [00:48:00] Um, and you also answered my other question about the fact of your interest. I mean, like we said, you're the senior vice president of global sales, not sales. And I think we talked about this offline a couple weeks ago, but I think Ridge is the, is it the number one exported wine number one American exported wine?
Michael Torino: Um,
Matt Weiss: sales.
Michael Torino: you know, from a volume perspective, um, definitely not there. There'd be some, some bulk companies that go well beyond that.
Matt Weiss: Sure.
Michael Torino: placement perspective, uh, you know, we, we work with a few different services that track data globally on wine lists and, um, you know, we're always for, uh, California wineries we're either number one or number two depending on the country.
And it's usually us and Opus who are kind of right there at the top two for the most restaurant placements globally.
Matt Weiss: John? Michael what? John? Michael. Whoa. We just got John, Michael, and Matthew. I didn't realize that. Uh, biblical here.
John Olney: Yeah, we're, we're on the last supper here.
Matt Weiss: We, um. Hopefully there's a [00:49:00] bottle of Montebello. What is okay, you, you don't have to tell me the best 'cause that's cliche, but what are some of the oldest bottles of either Montebello, Geyserville, or Litten Springs that you have tasted in the last couple of years, or Actually, no. Ever. What's the, what's the oldest bottles you've tasted, Michael?
Michael Torino: The oldest bottles. I've had a couple back into the sixties. I think 68 might have been the oldest ridge that I've tasted. Or did we have a six? Did we have a 64 at one point, John,
John Olney: Yeah. Yeah. We had the 64 when we did the, when we did the, the anniversary taste.
Michael Torino: That's right, that's right. So 64, I think would be the oldest for me.
Matt Weiss: Okay, Was it, was it, how was it?
Michael Torino: It, you know, still alive. I mean, there was life left in it. I, I mean, you knew it was old and it, uh, certainly tasted like it, you know, had, had been around for a long time. But still, life still acidity and, and a little freshness to it.
Matt Weiss: Nice. Um, John, [00:50:00] before I get to you, I actually have a question 'cause I, I was, when I was looking at my my collection today, I have 89 Montebello and seven 50. And I heard you talk about 89 outta Magnum recently. That tasted really good. And I have a, an O2 half bottle.
what's your, uh, memory of the, uh, obviously you weren't around for 89, but it's, but I know you've tasted it. What, what, what can you tell me about what I should expect out of those wines?
John Olney: Yeah. So I mean, ki kind of, kind of. Different vintages. 89, you know, was a little bit like 91. So not the biggest wine, but perfect balance. I mean, it's, it's been elegant from the beginning. It's a beautiful bottle of wine and probably tasting outstanding right now. And I would say that O2 is a wine that really is, is just now at what, 20 years coming into its, you know, I, I have had that a couple years ago.
We poured it at the New York, New [00:51:00] York wine experience and it was, it was a beautiful bottle. It's, it's amazing how young it tastes, but that's gonna be a great wine.
Matt Weiss: What's the oldest vintage you've tasted?
John Olney: Same as Mike 64.
Matt Weiss: 64.
John Olney: yeah, I, I don't even think we have any 62 or 63 left. Um, I could be wrong about that.
Matt Weiss: well, if you do, please share. Um, okay. Can you guys, we've talked a lot about Paul Draper. Uh, I'll share a quick story. I shared this with you earlier, Michael, but um, you know, Ridge was part of the 1976 tasting of Paris. What put California wines on the map. And I was lucky enough when I was a sommelier in New York Ridge and Paul and like you said, Michael, we had a great relationship. Um, did a great dinner at Orle in New York and I think, 'cause we knew each other, Michael, he said, why don't you go sit next to Paul? And we had this, like, he was giving, you know, a [00:52:00] presentation and kind of holding court like he would. And at some point I was talking to him about the 76 tasting of Paris.
And he goes to me, he's like. Oh, do you think they want to hear about that? And I said, yes. Like, he was so humble. And, and even though he was holding cord and could talk about so many different things, you know, that was, that was the, had to put that in his ear that yes, people want to hear about that.
So I just think that's so cool. But he has so many great stories. Um, Michael, can you share a Paul story, a memorable moment that you've had with him?
Michael Torino: know, oh my goodness, I've had so many with him over the years. He really just, you know, he's, he's kind of one of the most welcoming, um, you know, kind of fun, humble people you'll ever meet and just. Always happy to talk wine, talk life talk, food, uh, travel, all of it. Uh, you know, there's kind of countless, just great stories with him.
And I remember that, that, uh, Orel and yeah, it's, I, that's exactly why I put you next to him. 'cause I knew he's gonna like [00:53:00] you, you're gonna like him. This is gonna look good for me.
Matt Weiss: Thank you, Michael. Uh, John, how about you, um, being, uh, being the predecessor, uh, of, of, of Paul? You must have some unbelievable stories. I.
John Olney: Yeah, no, no question about it. I mean, I, I, I, uh, you know, certainly, you know, a lot, a lot of the, um, our assemblage tastings for Montebello come to mind where, um, you know, I can remember some of the first years when I was, when I was around the table with Paul, and, you know, one of the first things I noticed is like Paul, Paul always has like a little bit of, of olive oil.
Um, but he doesn't have a spitting cup. And, um, I mean, he's, he's such a tireless taster. I mean, you know, we would sit down at like eight 30. And then break for 15 minutes for lunch. And I'm thinking we're over with. And then Paul comes back and he says, you know, he wants to reta this once you, you know, next thing you [00:54:00] know, it's three o'clock.
And I mean, I don't know how, you know, we're, we're tasting young Montebello too. Um, just his, ability to stay focused and taste so many wines. I mean, it says, I think it says a lot about, um, his passion for, for, for wine, but for Montebello.
Matt Weiss: indefatigable,
Um, gentlemen, appreciate your time and, uh, spending this time with me talking about Ridge and sharing your insights so much. I will tell all of you out there, make sure you get yourself some ridge wines and you will drink deliciously. Thank you gentlemen.
John Olney: Thanks Matt.