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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
So who am I joined
by today? Nobody supported and
nobody trained me, and nobody
told me you have to read books
to become better.
Mark Ackers: My guest has had a
long and successful career, and
since 2018 they have ran their
own sales training business.
They are also a transformational
speaker, an author multiple
times over with their books
available on Amazon, Salesforce
awarded them the top sales
influencer to follow, and
LinkedIn has awarded them the
official top voice in sales
badge. My guest is Niraj Kapur,
did you used to be crap at
sales?
Niraj Kapur: I used to be
horrendous at sales. I was given
a script. I was given one hour
to learn it. I had to sell this
magazine down the phone. Now
bear in mind, this magazine was
about guns and weapons, and I
had a strong Irish accent in the
early 90s in London, it did not
go down well. Then you have
about 15% of people. They're the
ones who hit target year after
year after year, and they're the
ones who invest in themselves.
They're the ones who ask
questions. They're the ones who
will hire coaches. They're the
ones who go to Sales
conferences. You work very hard,
you don't gossip, and you make
me money. You keep doing like
you'll do well. Now a great boss
is somebody, when you do a good
deal, gets out of their desk,
comes over to you and goes, well
Mark Ackers: done. What have you
done to turn it around and make
2025? The best year. It's been
okay. So
hello and welcome to another
episode of The I used to be crap
at sales podcast. I'm your host,
Mark Akers, co founder and Head
of Sales here at my sales coach,
we called the podcast that
because it's true and all of our
guests say the same. So who am I
joined by today? Some may say
those who can't teach but that's
not true here. My guest is
Niraj. Kapur, Niraj, welcome to
the podcast. I feel like it's
been a long time coming. I know
we've known of each other for
many years now, but delighted to
have you here. How are you
today? I am doing absolutely
fine. Actually, I've gotten your
office in the city now in
Belfast, and I had my first
podcast yesterday, and because
you have these little pods, it's
so echoey. So I was in the
office today, and I rushed back
home so I can get a decent sound
to do this podcast. Thank you
for making the effort whilst
you're looking to get a decent
sound on your side. Irony is
someone that's like drilling in
the floor below ours, so
hopefully that won't come across
too loud, but great to have you
here. Let's Let's kick off with
the question we always start
with neuralgia. Yes, no
question, did you used to be
crap at sales? I used to be
horrendous at sales. I did
because nobody supported and
nobody trained me, and nobody
told me you have to read books
to become better. And on a scale
of one to 10, one being the
absolute worst. 10 being elite.
How would you rank yourself when
you started off in sales? When I
started, I'd probably say two or
three. I was given a script. I
was given one hour to learn it.
I had to sell this magazine down
the phone. Bear in mind, this
magazine was about guns and
weapons, and I had a strong
Irish accent in the early 90s in
London,
Niraj Kapur: it did not go down
well. It really didn't. And
anytime somebody give me an
objection, I would just kind of
stumble and not know what to
say. I'd have to wave to my
bossing. And back in those days,
they had those double phones,
the boss could listen in and
then say, say this, say this.
But it's not how you train
people. And that was my first
experience in sales. It wasn't a
very pleasant one.
Mark Ackers: I can imagine the
reference may be lost with you
being from Northern Ireland,
talking about guns in the 90s on
some of our listeners, but I can
understand why that might have
been difficult for you. Let's
talk about how you ended up in
sales then. So yeah, your first
sales role was in 1994 according
to LinkedIn, the sales executive
you were there for 10 years,
launching products, winning big
deals, really starting at the
bottom and climbing your way to
the very top, where you actually
got nominated for salesman of
the year as well. Let's get into
that. But I suppose the first
question is, how did you end up
in sales?
Niraj Kapur: I ended up in sales
the way so many people do end up
in sales. Either not sure what
you want to do in life, or you
just think, you know what I'd
like to earn more money. And
back in those days, for
everybody listening or watching,
you know, if you want to get a
job in sales, you would go to
the back of the Evening
Standard, I think, was a
Wednesday or Friday evening, and
I would say, you know, our top
salesperson earned 2000 pound
this week in commission. And I'm
like, Oh, I like the sound of
that. And that was it. You know,
most people get into sales for
the wrong reasons, and then they
thankfully leave very quickly,
or they stay and become
mediocre, or they stay in after
a while. Realise this is
actually a fantastic profession
and a fantastic way to help and
serve people. But at the
beginning, I did get in just I
had rent to pay, I had
overheads. I'm obsessed with 80s
rock music and early 90s rock me
tonight, I will buy every CD,
every special edition, every
Japanese edition that exists,
you know, for all the rock bands
that I love. So that was what my
expenses and overheads were. And
the only thing that could fund
that living in a big city like
London, and a very expensive
city like London was selling and
Mark Ackers: just picking up on
what you said there about
people. Getting sales for the
wrong reasons. Then you talk
about people that leave quite
quickly, then people that stay,
that are mediocre, and then some
people realise what fantastic
opportunity is. What kind of
percentage would you put on
those different
Niraj Kapur: outcomes? I would
say about 90% of people get into
sales for the money initially,
or because they have no idea
what to do with their life, or,
sadly, because they've watched
the bull for Wall Street too
often.
You know, these things happen in
terms of mediocre a lot of young
people will do sales jobs for a
few years and go, this is
horrible, and just leave and get
something else. There's a lot of
people I've trained,
unfortunately, in the last year
to 18 months, who have been
stuck in jobs for 20 years, and
they're in their 40s and they
don't like LinkedIn, they don't
use social media, they don't
like the state of the world, and
they say, This is who I am. I
will never change. And there's a
lot of people like that now,
probably as much as 20 to 25% I
would say, who are just
mediocre, shouldn't really be
doing their job and shouldn't be
in their job, but they're stuck
there because sometimes
companies find it hard to get
rid of staff. Sometimes
companies generally believe
staff will change with the best
of intentions, even though they
never will. And these are what I
would call the mediocre, let's
say 20, 25% mediocre. Then you
have about the 50% who are kind
of hot and cold, average, hot
and cold average, kind of zip
lining up and down, up and down,
and then you have about 15% of
people in companies that I would
call are great sales people.
They're not often natural.
They're people who have maybe
spent years learning their craft
to become very good, and they're
the ones who hit target year
after year after year, and
they're the ones who invest in
themselves. They're the ones who
ask questions, they're the ones
who will hire coaches. They're
the ones who go to Sales
conferences, and the top 15% is
what everybody should be aiming
for. 50% hot and cold, 15%
great, 25% mediocre. You
obviously got to the point where
you're in the top 15% I can see,
I can see that in you, and you
did that the first 10 years,
right? So in your intro, I was
saying how you really carried a
bag and led and built teams for
like, just over 23 years. And
this is why I'm excited for this
podcast. Like you've really
lived this life, and now you're
training people how to have the
success that you've had. And I
can see say you were there for
10 years, which, which actually
is a long time to stay in a
sales company, in a sales reps,
a very long time. But if you're
successful, and you're at a
place where you're earning money
and they're investing in you,
and you feel like you're
growing, perhaps not. But I see
that as I say, you went from
entry level to being nominated
for salesman of the year, which
would get you, I mean, really,
probably in the top 5% but
what's the big differences? You
talk about investing themselves
and coaching and going to
conferences, but it's obviously
a lot more than that. What were
you doing differently to others
when you were at the very top of
your game in those early years?
In the early years, you know, I
became a father very young, and
I got married very young, and I
had a mortgage that will make
you work really hard. So that
was it. I would come into the
office. I was the first person
there. You know, back in those
days, you know, you started a
half nine, you finished at half
five. You spent one hour the pub
for lunch. That was sales.
Nobody worked in the evenings.
There was no mobile phones,
there was no emails. You went
home at half five. And so what I
did was I come into the office
most mornings about quarter past
half eight, so one hour earlier,
and I would read all competitive
press. Who's advertising? Hmm,
they're not advertising with us.
Well, they should be. And I
would spend time doing that, and
then shortly after, my
publisher, who was a boss, would
come into the office, and she
would see me all the time,
working, working, working. What
had happened was the publisher
was amazed. She was a woman
working in publishing who was a
boss in an office, and there
weren't many female bosses
there, and a lot of people found
her very cold and very distant,
but she was always very nice to
me, and I'll get teased in the
office.
Oh, look, look who's arrived.
It's Annie. Look. Now, Johnny,
your boss is here, because she's
always really nice to me. And
one day I just knocked her door.
Said, Annie, I'm really sorry to
bother you. Can we have a wee
chat? And she goes, Sure. I
said, Look, I don't want to
cause any trouble. Please don't
get upset with me. But why are
you nice to me for because I was
just a kid in my 20s. I'd been
in London for a few years. I
came from a small town in
Northern Ireland. I wasn't the
life and soul of the party. I
wasn't really that interesting a
person. I didn't understand why
she was being nice to me. It
made no sense. And I said, Can I
ask why? And she goes, Sure. She
goes, you work very hard. You
don't gossip, and you make me
money. You keep doing that,
you'll do well in life. And that
was it, just really simple
advice, work really hard, don't
gossip and make money. And
bosses love members of staff and
sales who make money. And so
there's no doubt that you need a
bit of luck in anything you do
as well. And having a great boss
does make a huge difference to
your career. And there's no
saying. I'm sure it's all over
the internet. You can find it.
He wouldn't work for a boss for
a day. Don't work with him for a
year. Okay, just don't. And she
just kept promoting me and
promoting me and saying, Okay,
you're doing really well in the
magazine. How do you fancy
selling our awards? I'm like,
Okay, you're doing really well
in our awards. Why don't you
sell our conferences? Okay, it's
more money. I'll do. It because
it was exciting. It was
thrilling. The boss liked me,
and I kept getting paid more
money, which meant I could get a
mortgage in my 20s in London. It
was only a little two bedroom
house, but it gave me a life,
and it gave me a career, and it
gave me a way of supporting my
family.
Mark Ackers: So I get it when a
boss is nice to you, that's
great. What else was she doing
beyond being nice to you. That
made her a great boss. Like you
talk about great bosses make all
the difference. What does make
for a great boss?
Niraj Kapur: A great boss is
somebody, when you do a good
deal, gets out of their desk,
comes over to you and goes, well
done. That was brilliant. You
can email somebody, which is
okay. But one thing I learned
when I became a manager was, you
know, you go over to somebody,
you shake their hand in front of
their colleagues, go, that was a
brilliant deal. Well done. You
know, no matter what industry
you work in, sales are non
sales, but especially sales
people, whose egos are a bit
more fragile, let's be
realistic, they want to be
appreciated. They want to be
respected. They want to be
admired. Yes, sales people love
the Commission. They love the
money. Of course, they love all
those extras. But ultimately, as
human beings, we want to be
respected. We want to be
appreciated by others. I don't
mean loved by everybody, but
definitely want your boss to
respect, admire you and
appreciate the good work you're
doing.
Mark Ackers: And it's
interesting, like you use the
language when you do a good
deal. Do you feel like bosses
should only really do that level
of praise when you go above and
beyond? Like you talk about
working harder an hour earlier
every day doing good deals. Do
you feel like bosses should only
give that level of praise when
you go above and
Niraj Kapur: beyond? No, because
as a coach, if I'm speaking to
somebody, and they've spent
maybe two months trying to get a
meeting with somebody, and it
hasn't worked on email, and I'm
saying, Okay, well, let's try
multi platform approaches that's
much more successful. So we'll
try email, we'll do a LinkedIn
DM, and then we'll try a phone
call a week later. Let's do
that, and they have success just
literally getting a meeting.
That's not a business deal,
that's not revenue, but as far
as I'm concerned, that's worthy
of saying well done to somebody.
So I don't think you should just
congratulate sales people when
they make money for you. I think
you congratulate them when they
support a colleague, when
someone's on holiday and they
pick up the extra work, when
they get a deal with somebody
who's just been quiet for
months, or when they get a
meeting with a client who said,
I will never do business with
this company again. I have to
work with those clients because
had bad experiences with
somebody else, which wasn't my
fault. It's really important to
appreciate people for that.
Don't just appreciate them for
making money, appreciate them
for good work that they do.
Mark Ackers: I suppose that
that's kind of my point, right
again, it's some of the examples
you gave there, like picking up
the slack when someone's on
holiday. It's about not just
praising when they go above and
beyond. It's about recognising
daily habits and behaviours and
reinforcing that not not just
you've done something that I
wouldn't expect you to do well
done. You've closed a deal
better or bigger than I'd expect
you to do well done. It's about
looking for micro opportunities
to say well done and reinforce
positive behaviour. Is kind of
what I'm picking up from
Niraj Kapur: what you're saying
absolutely. You know, even the
teams I coach now it's now what,
August, 2025 and no doubt this
will still happen in q4 2025
it'll still happen in 2026 the
number of sales leaders I speak
to, and sometimes commercial
directors. Not again, CEOs don't
speak to CEOs as much, but sales
directors and commercial
directors and HR directors, a
lot of the time. They complain
the staff just don't care
sometimes. And then around a
recent stat, Salesforce
initially said it was 72% of
people will not hit their target
in 2024 and they estimated it
would be 75% of people will not
hit their sales target in 2025
that number is actually now
closer to 80% which is
shockingly high. So there's
clearly a disconnect going on
here. Now there's a whole lot of
variable factors. Of course,
there's things like, you know,
sales leaders making targets
very high. Quality of leads, not
very good. The company's not
investing enough. And you
there's all kinds of variables,
of course you have to take into
consideration. But the fact that
80% of people are not hitting
their target is a major problem
in sales. It really and truly
is, and I truly believe, just
from the observations I see all
the time, learning to appreciate
people on a deeper level,
learning to invest in people on
a deeper level, and teaching
people to really look after
their colleagues and to pick up
the slack. It's often the small
things in business that make a
big difference. You and I both
know everybody is desperate for
giant golden nuggets, rather
desperate for oh, if you invest
50,000 this technology will be
saved. Oh, invest 30,000
LinkedIn Sales Navigator, come
on. If you do that, we'll hit
our targets. No, sometimes it's
just the small things, which
often don't cost money, which
really do have the biggest
impact in sales. And a lot of
people just don't see this. I
see it all the time because I
see I'm with teams, I'm in
offices all the time. But quite
often it's the simple things
that make a big difference, not
the big, expensive investments.
Mark Ackers: It's interesting
because you talk about the
percentage of people not hitting
target, and that aligns quite
nicely, not perfectly, but quite
nicely, to your observation of
15% being the great salespeople
that hit their target, 50% being
hot and cold and 25% being
mediocre. And aligns quite
nicely to what Salesforce are
predicting or predicted for last
year and for this year. I. Are
you saying that when a sales
team doesn't hit target, or a
sales team isn't performing,
it's often down to the sales
leader because they're not doing
the right things on a daily
basis. To get that from the team
or picking up what you spoke
about earlier. Is it the
individual? Because what you
really summarise with the top
performers is they invest
themselves, they hire a coach,
they go to competencies, which
actually is more habits for the
salesperson. So where is it
going wrong? Is it the sales
leader or is it the sales
people?
Niraj Kapur: Oh, it's both. You
both have to anytime a team
comes to me and they're
struggling, they're never
struggling because everybody is
self aware. They're never
struggling as a sales leader or
invest heavily in them with
regular coaching. They just it's
not it's often because at least
one of those functions isn't
working. And when you work in
sales teams, even the teams I've
been working with very recently,
they're struggling. The first
thing I'll ask them is, okay, so
what books have you read
recently? And I'll say to
younger people, what YouTube
videos have you watched
recently, or what podcasts have
you listened to? And often
there's complete silence. They
listen to Steve Bartlett, which
is okay now and again, but they
don't listen to sales specific
podcasts. I say, okay, so you're
not listening to sales podcasts
improve. But you know, sales
isn't just about sales. It's
about psychology. It's about
emotional intelligence. It's
about understanding copywriting,
when it comes to email and
LinkedIn DMS, I was also
understanding LinkedIn and how
to leverage it. What have you
done to learn about these
things, complete silence, the
amount of lack of self awareness
that occurs in sales. In 2025
and beyond, we have the most
amazing technology available in
so many areas. There have been
so many advancements in this
world, but yet people in sales
are not advancing. They're not
getting better. There's just
zero self awareness of the need
to really invest themselves
properly. And when they do
invest themselves, they will say
to the bosses, Look, can you
spend 5000 pound a Tony Robbins
event? Or can you spend several
1000 pound getting us some
LinkedIn Sales navigators? We
can reach more people. And those
are not solutions are going to
build for you long term they're
okay on a short term level, but
in a long term level, it's not
going to get you your annual
target. So salespeople need to
be much more self aware of where
they are, how they come across,
and to invest themselves. And
sales leaders have to stop being
so critical of their staff and
spend more time investing in
them. And bear in mind, most
sales leaders aren't very good
coaches or managers. They're not
they often became a sales leader
because they were very good at
sales, and they wanted a pay
rise, and the boss said, Okay,
I'll make you a sales manager or
a sales director. But that
doesn't justify you to coach
other people. A lot of sales
leaders coach badly and say,
Look, just follow me, or they
don't coach at all. And so you
have to really blame both
parties. It's not it's quite
rare. It's one person. Quite
often. There's two or more
things
Mark Ackers: I've said and
written very similar many times
in my career around and it's
interesting, because anyone
listening to this podcast is
already ahead of what you're
talking about, right? They do.
They're listening to podcasts.
They're here. So I kind of want
to be respectful of the audience
and not kind of lay into that
because that they are listening
to podcasts, I suppose it's what
else can they be doing to invest
in their own development? Yeah,
like, a very small percentage of
sales people pay for their own
sales coaching, for example. Why
do you think that is a lot
Niraj Kapur: of sales people I
speak to will say, Well, I'll
work with an erage. If the boss
says, Yes, I'm like, well, the
boss says, No, what are you
going to do? You're not hitting
your target. Why don't you
invest in it yourself? And they
start making excuses. Oh, let me
think about it. Or I'll speak to
my partner about it. My Come on.
You want a sales career or not?
You know, it's just what I hear
are excuses all the time. And so
people, when sales people work
with me, it always tends to come
through the boss. But anytime a
sales person had the initiative
to invest in me themselves,
they've gone on to have much
more success because they've
taken the initiative to spend
their own money. When your
company spends the money you
might invest, you might learn,
you might not. It depends on
your attitude, but if you spend
your own money, believe you me,
you will work really hard to
make sure you get that money
back times five or times 10 you
will, because it's your money.
There's more at stake. And a lot
of people default to saying,
Well, we'll see what the boss
says. We'll see what HR says,
But HR, you shouldn't be asking
HR about your career. You have
to take responsibility for your
career. You look at all the
people that we know, that we
respect and that we admire.
Okay, whether it's the Daniel
Disneys, the Benjamin Dennehy,
our colleagues in America, you
know, the John Barrows, the
Marcus chan the Lindsay Boggs,
Amy volases, all these people. I
know them all, and I've met most
of them. They invest very
heavily in themselves and going
to conferences. They invest very
heavily in coaches. They go to
conferences. They some of them
read. Others will listen to
podcasts. But they invest
heavily in themselves, not when
times are difficult, but when
times are good as well. So right
now, in 2025 I'm having the best
year of my career. 2024 was
tough for me. I made one or two
wrong decisions with people I
invested in, but 2025 has been
outstanding for me, and despite
the fact I'm having the best
year of my career, I'm currently
investing more in myself than I
ever have to better myself, and
I really want everybody
listening and. Watching to think
about that. I'm not waiting
until times get tough. I'm
investing now while times are
outstanding, because that's what
successful people do.
Mark Ackers: The other thing
that is just important to touch
upon is you're right. Again, I
talk about this a lot good sales
people get promoted into
managers, but it doesn't make
them good coaches, and what they
rely on, typically is, well, do
what I did, because that worked
for me, but it's a whole
different skillset. I would say
on this podcast, we probably
covered that quite a lot, in
that difficult dilemma of you
become a manager, and it's a
whole new job now, and you don't
get the support in learning
that, I think what I found
interesting is I still don't
feel like I got a detailed
answer from you as to what makes
a good boss. You spoke about
praise. You spoke about
recognising hard work. You spoke
about being nice. But if you
were building like the perfect
boss to lead a sales team, what
other attributes are in there?
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Niraj Kapur: Oh, very simple.
And I learned this only when I
became a boss. Unfortunately, I
looked at other bosses in the
company who were way more
experienced than me, way, way
more experienced, way better,
way more successful at the time.
Luckily, I was working at
Informa, and I got a coach at
inform I thought, You know what,
I really should be investing
myself. So I got a coach, stay
ahead. And my coach said to me,
spend every Monday morning with
every member of your team doing
one to one coaching. I said, he
crazy. That will take up my
entire Monday. He goes, now,
Raj, you want our team to
succeed, this is what you have
to do. I'm like, Oh, for God's
sake, it's gonna take out my
pro. I'm gonna lose prospecting
time. I'm going to lose
everything if I do this. And I
did it begrudgingly. And after a
month, I started to see the team
move the needle a bit, because
when you sit down, you spend 30
minutes with a member of staff
on a Monday morning, and the
first few minutes you're asking
about, how are you? And you just
listen, you let them talk, and
then you say, Okay, what was the
highlight of your week last
week? Okay, brilliant. What did
you learn? Okay, and where are
you in your pipeline this week?
And what do you think you're
going to close and close and
what do you think you're in
danger of losing and how to be
protected? And you ask just five
or six really important
questions in a one to one, you
will learn so much about your
memory. You will learn so much
about your team, and your team
will improve very quickly. Or
unfortunately, you realise,
yeah, this person is not working
out here, and you make sure your
team come prepared to these
meetings fully on a Monday
morning. They don't just wing
it. If you ask somebody their
target, they don't go, let me
look it up in the CRM. No, no.
They will know their target off
by heart, because that's what
great salespeople do. The
amateurs will go, Oh, God, I
don't know. Let me look it up
and I'll come back to you, a
professional knows exactly where
they are. They know what they
have to hit, they know what they
have to get, so they come in
fully prepared for those
meetings. And that is absolutely
gold, and it's one of the
smartest things you can do as a
manager.
Mark Ackers: So you started with
saying you got to do one to one
coaching at the start of every
Monday. What you described to me
there felt more like pipeline
reviews. And that's fine, that's
an important part of a manager,
but I'm just curious how you see
that differently to maybe how
I've interpreted that.
Niraj Kapur: Yeah, it's a
pipeline review. I call it I
call it coaching, because it's
very intimate, and it's one on
one. And if somebody's
struggling their pipeline and
they're saying, Yeah, this
person might close with a few
objections, like, okay, so what
objections are you having? Okay,
and what can we do to overcome
those objections? So for me,
that's really coaching. Yes,
it's a pipeline review, of
course, technically, but there's
a lot of one to one coaching
involved in that. Okay? And so
this person's been stuck at 30%
now for a while. What are we
gonna do to get it to 40% Well,
I'm sending an email. Okay, so
show me the quality of the email
you're sending. Oh, okay, I see
what the problem is. Okay. So
what can you to make this email
better? And then, quite often,
you're just the email in half.
You write better buzz words. You
get everything the first two
sentences. You know, to me,
that's one to one coaching. It's
more than a pipeline review.
Pipeline reviews are kind of
cold and clinical and kind of
dull, but there's always one to
one coaching in that. So on a
Monday, that is key for
individual members of a team.
And then on a Wednesday morning,
the whole team get together and
you have proper sales training.
You choose a topic, whether it
is closing a deal, whether it is
sales process, whether it is
overcoming objections, which is
huge right now, whether it's
overcoming ghosting, which is
probably the I would say
ghosting and client indecision
are the two biggest problems we
have right now. And you talk
about it, and then you do a role
play on it. You don't just train
people on it. You have to do
role plays. You have to get
member of the team and actually
do a live role play so people
can see it. Because teaching
something is one thing, but
doing it is a completely other
thing, and that's what I do in
my coaching and training
sessions. We don't just learn.
We take action. So you got the
Monday pipeline review forward
slash one to one coaching, and
then on Wednesday, you have the
team training as
Mark Ackers: well. So I'm
pleased I pushed because the way
in which you described your
pipeline reviews slash coaching,
the key for me was you were not
giving the answers. You were
asking the questions and getting
them to think and present back
Niraj Kapur: to you. Don't give
answers to people ever. They
don't learn that way. You have
to ask questions and as much as
possible get them to, I mean,
this is coaching, of course, but
and get them to give the answers
as much as possible. If they're
stuck, by all means, help them,
but you want the answers to come
from them. Because what I found
is if the answers come from the
other person, they're much more
likely as hic action. But if you
tell somebody what to do, it's
gonna be a bigger struggle.
Mark Ackers: I agree. I always
use the analogy of inception,
the movie. I know you've seen
it, but it's where you have to
make them feel like the ideas
originated in their head, so
it's more believable, rather
than give them the idea. I love
how you described going from the
Monday to the Wednesday. I
picked up on you using the word
training and coaching, and
sometimes you were using them
interchangeably. Other times, it
felt like you were very specific
with that's coaching, that's
training. And I just want to
really get from you, what do you
see as a difference between
training and coaching? In your
own
Niraj Kapur: words, this may not
be the difference, but it's how
I perceive it. So for me,
coaching is it's very intimate.
It has to be more one on one
based it's a much slower
process, and it's more about
focusing on the individual,
whereas training, for me is more
about having a group of people
together, like a team together,
and working with the team as a
whole. That for me, rightly or
wrongly, is how I see the
difference between coaching and
training.
Mark Ackers: That's your take.
I'm not too dissimilar to how
you say it. In fairness, I want
to get into the biggest things
that you're seeing with ghosting
and client indecision, I
suppose, before that, trying to
keep in some sort of
chronological order to what
you've shared, because there's
lots of gold here. You made
loads of wrong decisions last
year. What did you What did you
get wrong? The two biggest
Niraj Kapur: wrong
decisions I made last year was,
I want to go really big last
year, so I invested very heavily
in a YouTube channel. And the
second thing I did was, at the
same time, I invested heavily in
SEO and the YouTube channel. I
look back on it thinking, at
least I learned a lot about it,
but I made nothing from it.
After 12 months investment, it
cost me a fortune. It was my
money. And the first person I
hired was a very nice guy, and I
have to fire him, which I hated
doing, but he wasn't good
enough. And firing anybody is a
it's never a pleasant
experience, ever, especially
that person's a friend, and
we're not friends anymore,
because that happens when you
fire people, sometimes they
don't like it, even when they
make mistakes, they don't like
it. And the second person I got
was better, but still it didn't
work the way I wanted it to. And
the SEOs, because I wanted
anybody, anytime that people put
in sales training, or, you know,
sales coaching, one to one
coaching, I wanted my name to be
there, and they were driving
traffic to my website. They were
putting news articles my
website. Because apparently we
put news articles on the
website, it drives traffic from
Google towards it. And that was
a catastrophic failure. And so
I've lost all my business
savings that I spent years
accumulating in one year was a
it was just, it really hurt, and
it was a very painful lesson.
And unfortunately, when you when
you feel anything in life, you
do lose a bit of confidence, and
you do start to question your
abilities. And that's dangerous,
because you need confidence in
sales. You can't be going to
sales thinking, you know, you
have to have some kind of good
confidence. And I did, in
November, December last year,
lose a lot of confidence and
question myself far too much,
Mark Ackers: and you've only
given me the headlines there
when you've hired somebody.
Because unless you're going to
tell me otherwise, I'm going to
assume you're not an SEO expert
or YouTube expert, hence hiring
someone, I'm
Niraj Kapur: just going to
delegate to you, because I
assume you're the expert, and
therefore I expect you to get on
Mark Ackers: with it. Yeah,
exactly. That's exactly how I
thought you'd answer it. So if
you've hired people in those
roles and they failed, why has
that affected your confidence?
Niraj Kapur: Because all the
money I worked so hard for as a
LinkedIn trainer and as a
LinkedIn all the savings.
Because bear in mind, when I
when I earn money, it doesn't
just go towards bills. You know,
I'm not my 50s. My father is my
81 so it goes towards private
health care, which you need, and
it goes towards having a good
life. Because in your 50s, you
know, health care is important,
living a good life is important.
And all of a sudden, if all the
savings is gone at my age, it's
dangerous to have no backup. You
got to have at least a few
months salary in your bank
account. People are 20s. May not
agree with me, but trust me,
when you get to my age, having a
few months salary is a blessing.
Having six months salary is
ideal, and it means that when
situations occur regarding
healthcare or regarding a nicer
holiday, or my stepdaughter has
just graduated from law school,
and I decided to live with us
for the next six months, you
know, you have all these things
happening. Money helps you, on
so many levels, make decisions,
and when I spent all that
savings, it's like, what do I do
now? What have I spent? 2025
making the wrong decisions
again, and that was my fear. I
see
Mark Ackers: you wait. Your
confidence is around making a
decision to rectify it and go
big in 2025 given you've spoke
about investing in yourself and
investing with. Good Times are
going well, and we're two sales
people that will be comfortable
talking about money. I have to
ask, how much did you invest
into this last year, an SEO on
YouTube channel, almost 20,000
pounds, right? Okay, and that
sounds like that was a huge bet
for you, and it didn't work out.
What? But the good news is, what
I'm hearing is you're having the
best year ever in 2025 and I
want to know what you've
changed, but I did ask you that,
because when I reached out to
you on LinkedIn, I said, What?
What's changed for it to go
really well, and I just loved
your answer. You said,
prospecting. And I just think
that that is the cure for for
most Gremlins, building big
healthy pipeline and lots of
sounds reps don't do that. The
older, more mature, more
experienced they get, the less
they prospect. But that's just
the headline you gave me. Tell
me, what have you done? What
have you done to turn it around
and make 2025 the best year it's
Niraj Kapur: been okay. So I
spend a lot of time reading and
personal development and
studying and in stoicism, one of
the things they teach you to do
is detach from the outcome. Of
course, you always want the
outcome, but quite often you'll
have control over the outcome.
And before, when a client
rejected me, you know it upsets
you, because you're a human
being, and sometimes it affect
me for days, thinking that was a
big deal. Why did I lose that?
What's wrong? And now it's like,
you know what? The client's gone
is there any lesson I can learn
from this? Yes, brilliant. Let's
not make that mistake again, or
just don't get hung up on a
deal. You have to detach from
the outcome that's really
important. I don't see a lot of
people. I see a lot of people
getting very depressed when they
lose deals and slowing down a
bit, and they often cut back on
prospecting instead of
accelerating it. So I would call
that. You can call it stoicism,
you can call it emotional
intelligence, but let's call it
what it is, detaching from the
outcome and not letting
rejection lead to self
rejection. Okay, so that's the
first thing. The second thing in
terms of prospecting. You know,
I don't know a single person
Mark who's ever said to me. You
know what? I really wish I had
more emails. Nobody says that.
Nobody wants more emails, and so
I tend to prospect two ways. I
send videos through LinkedIn,
DMS, because most people just
don't do that. And just to be
clear everybody, I don't have
fancy software. I use my phone.
That is it. I use my phone, my
mobile phone, which I'm holding
up to those of you listening.
And the second thing I do, which
again, hardly anybody does, is I
write letters in the post. And
the reason I write letters on
good quality paper, which you
then sign in beautiful ink and
put in a very nice envelope and
lovely quality headed paper, is
because none of my competition
I'm aware of do this. Nobody
gets anything useful set in the
post. It helps you stand out.
And also, you can make letters a
bit longer than emails as well,
and I have found tremendous
success sending letters in the
post. And I tend to break into
two groups of people. One are
people who have never spoken to
me, and the second group of
prospects are people who work
with me in 2023 in 2022 in 2021
and I don't just say hey, I'm a
LinkedIn trainer. I'm a LinkedIn
top voice. I've written three
books. I'm a TEDx speaker, I'm
an award winning sales coach,
and all the nonsense so many
people talk about, what I'll do
is I'll say, do you know that
90% of business takes place in
the follow up? And I guarantee
your sales team are not
following up properly. They
might be sending multiple
emails, saying thoughts, but
that's not really how to follow
up. And here's three suggestions
I have and how you can follow up
better. And I'll give my three
suggestions, and I'll say, if
that's been helpful to you, I'm
happy to share more information.
Here are my details. So what
I've done is I've shared a
problem that a business owner or
a sales leader is currently
having, I have given a partial
solution to that problem, and
I've said, if that has been
helpful, I am happy to share
more insights with you, and that
is a very effective way to get a
response from people, because
you're not talking about
yourself. You're not saying, can
I get 15 minutes of your time?
You're not saying, Here's my
county link. You're standing out
head and shoulders above anybody
else in your industry. And that
has been a blessing for me. And
one of the people who hired me
is director of the Royal College
of Nursing, who I worked with 15
years ago, and I just messaged,
and I just sent that letter, and
it was gold. It was so useful.
Another person was somebody I
worked with two years ago who
said, That's right, they worked
with two years ago. Yeah, things
have been going great. I've
gotten on a member of staff,
actually on board, can you do
some training with them? And
just all these lovely things
opened up because I stood out,
and I was different, and I gave
value. So emotional detachment,
prospecting through LinkedIn
video and sending letters in the
Mark Ackers: post. What I love
about that is like you say you
you almost demonstrating that
you can do it, hence why you're
credible to teach it. You also
mentioned that you invest in
yourself now more so, like when
things are going well. So so
tell me what what do you
currently do to invest in
yourself?
Niraj Kapur: I do things. I try
and look what other sales people
are doing, and I try and do
stuff they're not doing. So, for
example, I attend at least three
marketing conferences a year,
and I spend time in rumours with
these are all paid for
conferences. I don't go to free
events. I prefer, if possible,
paid for events. You get
different kind of person who
attends. Pounds, and I'll pay in
Dublin, it's 200 euros. In the
UK, it's about 150 maybe 200
pounds. And I was sitting in a
room full of marketing directors
and marketing managers, and I
literally go there and ask
questions. So what book you're
currently reading right now
that's helping you? What are the
biggest challenges you're
facing? Do you think sales teams
right now? What are the biggest
demands sales teams? I just go
there with a notepad and a pen
and I ask questions like a
sponge, and that's just to the
people, by the way, who are
attending. That's not even to
the speakers. That is just to
the people who are attending.
And I network, and I always
share a lot of LinkedIn insight
with people, because, with great
respect to marketing people,
majority of them haven't a clue
how to use LinkedIn. They really
don't. So I will share a lot of
insight with them onto how to
use LinkedIn so they see me as a
person of value, and because I'm
asking questions, when you ask
good questions to people, they
kind of see as a person who's a
bit intelligent as well. And I
come armed with lots of
information when I go there. So
I attend marketing conferences,
which is vital, but also, you
know, I polish up in my skills,
what I call my non sales skills,
which are very important. So I
mentioned stoicism, I mentioned
copywriting. I read a lot of
books on copywriting, and also
I'm doing a six month business
course right now on scaling my
business, and that is teaching
me so much about growth, about
pricing, about lead magnets, and
I'm just getting better and
better and better. I'm going to
launch something very big, very
soon, which I can't talk about,
but I'm getting better and
better. So it's business skills.
With those business skills comes
a coaching programme. It's
attending marketing conferences.
And it's continued to be in a
position where, after 31 years
in sales, I'm still humble
enough to say, You know what? I
don't know it all, and I'm still
here to learn every
Mark Ackers: day. I love that.
So again, real examples of
putting yourself out there,
travelling to events, paying
paying for your ticket,
investing in coaching
programmes, looking to grow and
develop even 31 years later,
still having the mindset of
growth. I notice you ask a lot
of people what book you read in
the minute. Can't ask you, What
book are you reading at the
minute?
Niraj Kapur: You certainly can
actually there you go. Now
here's the thing. I bought this
because you wrote it. I bought
your first book problem
prospecting, which I loved. But
when I read a book that's really
good, what I tend to do is wait
for, like, two months, and I go
back and every day a second
time, and I'm holding up a
highlighter here, and I go
through with a highlighter and I
make notes, because, you know,
you read a book that's very
good, you're gonna forget half
it after two months. You just
will. So I always read good
books a second time, and I'll
make notes, or I'll highlight
the notes, and I make sure I
look back at that regularly,
just to remind myself what I've
learned from it, because there's
no point reading books if you're
going to forget about what
you've learned. You know, same
as sales training. You know,
most people I train, they forget
stuff the next day. So I always
say, Okay, after this training
tomorrow, I want you to send me
three things you're going to do
off the back of this training
that means they're not going to
forget as much. And then they
respond to me. Then I look at it
and I respond back. And then a
week later, what are you doing
right now? But also, what are
you having challenges with?
Because you have to keep people
accountable and you have to put
stuff into action. Otherwise,
reading and training is a
complete waste of time.
Mark Ackers: Cynics will think
that we plan that I did not know
that that was going to be the
book that you lifted up. I
appreciate people listening, not
watching or will not see me
blushing, but yeah, you So you
picked up deconstructing
discovery. I'll ask since, since
we're here, as I say, slightly
blushing being being British is
what we do. But what do you
think
Niraj Kapur: of it? It's a
terrific book. Here's the thing.
Here's why it's terrific. That's
more important. I literally had
this book here because you're
going to be here. And also, as a
fellow author, I know how
incredibly difficult it is to
write a book, but I also know
how incredibly difficult it is
to sell a book. You know, a lot
of people write books and go,
Hey, I'm a best selling author.
No, you're not. You got into the
Amazon top 100 for two hours.
Get over yourself. You know,
there's a big difference. But
selling a book is really hard,
and when you sell it, you only
get 30% Amazon take the rest,
and of that 30% you have to pay
taxes, you know. So it's like
people don't realise how hard
you have to work as an author.
And those authors who are really
big and sell 100,000 copies a
year, it's probably what point
not a 1% made. All the friends
who have had the written sales
books, not one of them sold
100,000 copies, I'll tell you.
But many of them are very, very
good books, and sales books,
certainly, at the moment, are
getting harder and harder to get
good information from, because
they're often regurgitating the
same thing. And what I liked
about your book is the way I
learn is I like simplicity. I
don't like complicated stuff. I
don't want to read books are
just packed with research and
data. That's just not how my
brain works. I like books like
Simon Sinek start with why,
which are just simple and
actionable and make sense to me,
because I'm really busy. I
haven't got time to try to
deconstruct a book. I want to
deconstruct something simply.
And what you did was you give
outlines of emails. You give
outlines of how conversation
should go. You give examples in
your book of how things should
be, and from my perspective,
that makes my life much easier.
Mark Ackers: Wow. Thank you for
as I say, for those listening,
it's deconstructing discovery.
That's the review right there.
What about podcasts? You. You
know, let's say this one,
because that would be just, I'd
be too embarrassing. What? Why
we
Niraj Kapur: started your
podcast three weeks ago, so I'm
not going to mention your
podcast. I'm taking my phone out
here. All right. So my podcasts
are a mixture, and I'll tell you
not only the podcast, but why I
chose them. So let me go to my
downloads. Okay, so the first is
Joel osting, which is about God,
and regardless of whether you
think this is an inappropriate
topic or not, is irrelevant. But
having faith is very important
in life. And the last five
years, you know, I lost
everything five years ago with
divorce and then lockdown, and I
had to rebuild my life again,
which, by the way, in early 40s.
I mean rebuilding your life's
never nice, just to be clear,
rebuilding your life in your
late 40s as a man who also
happens to be bold and Indian,
it's so difficult, I can't even
tell you. So I just found faith
really helped me in those
darkest moments. So I listened
to Joel Osteen book, and I find
faith and positivity just very
good in general. I listen to
sales gravy by Jeb blunt. Why?
Because it's podcast 10 minutes.
That's it. I can't do the whole
two hours. Steve Bartlett, three
hour. Andrew Huberman, I've
tried. I just have no patience.
I really don't good for them,
their success, it's not for me.
I like podcasts that are short
and snappy and to the point. So
sales gravy by Jeb blunt, and
sales influenced by Victor
Antonio. I also have, this is
the way which I'm really
enjoying a lot of good sales and
LinkedIn people on there. I
don't know those guys. It's just
something I picked up recently.
There's an American business
bond by guy called Bedros truly
on who's Craig Valentine's
partner. And I like him just
because he's loud and he's
actually Armenian, but he's loud
American, unfiltered, quite
different to the kind of thing I
would normally listen to, but I
like the fact that it's
balanced, because it's just a
bit more hardcore nice. I
couldn't
Mark Ackers: help but smile when
you said you didn't like big,
long podcasts. And I'm thinking,
Christ, I've had you here
already for sort of 40 to 50
minutes. Let's pick it up. Let's
pick up the speed. So one of the
things that I wrote down, and
then I've dropped my pen on the
floor, and I'm sort of strapped
in to this chair, not literally,
but if I get up, I'm going to
move the microphone. But you
said client and indecision are
two of the biggest things that
you're seeing right now. And I
was going to ask you, you know,
when you reach when people reach
out to you for help, what are
the most common problems? Here's
the thing. Let's take them
separately, ghosting and client
indecision. They're headlines.
What's the root cause of those
problems? And take them one at a
Niraj Kapur: time. Okay, so when
a client ghost you, they're
ghosting you for a variety of
reasons. Sometimes you just
haven't built the trust with
them or given them enough value,
and sometimes they just have
more important stuff going on
than you. That's it, and I
haven't actually my percentage
breakdown, but it's probably
close to 5050, I would imagine
they simply have more important
things. Buying from a
salesperson is not top of their
priority list. If you're running
a business, or if you're a sales
leader, you have so many things
going on. You got to deal with
staff, you got to deal with
targets. You got to layers with
marketing. You got to probably
hit your own target. If you're a
Selling Manager, which I was for
many years, you have so many
things to think about,
recruitment, getting rid of a
member of staff, maybe the last
thing in your mind is this
person is selling to me. So
please bear that in mind. A lot
of the time the other person is
simply busy, but the rest of the
time you simply haven't given
enough value or built enough
trust with that person for them
to want to go forward and do
business with
Mark Ackers: you. Let's talk
about building trust again.
That's a headline. If a sales
rep struggles to build trust,
that's a headline. There's lots
of reasons you might not be able
to do that, like, off the top of
my head, right? You might not
have the desire or motivation to
really be in sales. Maybe
haven't got the will to sell,
from a DNA point of view,
perhaps you've got a high need
for approval, and you struggle
to ask the right questions. And
like you said earlier, right
asking great questions can build
credibility and build trust and
build interest. And perhaps you
don't handle rejection very
well. It might be you've got
supportive buy cycles where you
accept people buying from you,
how you might buy yourself, or
limiting beliefs tactically. It
could be you don't qualify, you
don't reach actual decision
makers, you don't uncover
compelling reasons. Perhaps you
don't ask the right questions or
enough questions. There's lots
of things that link to trust.
But what do you think is, if
someone's listening to this and
they're thinking, Do you know
what? I think people might like
me, but they don't trust me as
much as they should, and
credibility is important. What
can they what can they work on
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Niraj Kapur: Today, I would
always recommend people to tap
into the language of the person
you're speaking to. So. So for
the first time in 2025 I'm
coaching not one, but two CEOs.
Now these CEOs are way more
successful than me, probably
earning at least 10 to 20 times
what I earn. Okay, I can't
really teach them anything, but
they trust me. They hired me
because they trust me. They've
hired big consulting companies
before who just took as much
money as they could, and they
hired me because they trusted
me. And how did I earn that
trust? Well, when I spoke to
them, I was recommended to them,
which always helps, of course,
but that only moves you forward
slightly. What I then did, I
didn't just say hi. I've been
recommended to by such and such.
I've written three books. I've
been in sales for 30 years. I'm
a TEDx speaker. I'm a LinkedIn
top voice, officially LinkedIn,
they don't care. What I would
say is, as a CEO, here's what I
imagine you're going through a
daily basis, dealing with market
share, dealing with legacy,
dealing with revenue growth
threats everywhere. So
immediately, in the first two to
three lines, I let them know I
understand their world. I also
know how you probably have very
little time available for
coaching. So rather than doing
60 minute sessions, a lot of
CEOs I've spoken to before
prefer 20 minutes or 30 minutes
a week instead of one hour. That
is how I build trust, because I
let them know I understand their
world and I tap into their
world. When you speak to a sales
leader, for example, you don't
talk about legacy, you just
don't or or revenue or, sorry,
not, or market share. What you
do talk about is ROI targets,
making the staff better. That's
the language I use with a sales
leader or a sales director, but
with a CEO, it's always revenue,
it's market share, it's legacy.
If I'm speaking to financial
director, I build trust by
talking about cutting costs,
because that's a lot of them get
bonuses on that when you're
speaking to an HR director,
because some HR directors sit on
boards as well. Mark, you speak
to them about staff well being
you'll speak to an HR director
about marketing. Roi, you know
you have to use the right
language. And when I observe
demos each week, and I listen to
phone calls every single week, I
rarely see sales people adapting
their language to the person
they're speaking to. I see them
speaking exactly the same way to
everybody, and that's not going
to help you. And you build
trust. When people think, oh,
this person gets me, not this
person's a genius, or this
person's got a 200 IQ, this
person gets me. He or she
understands what I'm going
through.
Mark Ackers: This way you hear
the phrase now you're speaking
my language. Here's the problem
with that, that I sympathise
with sellers, is they often,
they often sell to people that
are doing a job they've never
done you, as a CEO of your own
business, understand the CEO
world and just you're over older
generation. You've had more
experience, right? Like you, you
are more experienced than most
people that listen to this
podcast is in terms of length of
service to the role. But you've
experienced what a CEO thinks.
You've been a sales leader. You
know what a sales leader thinks,
why they get up, why they go to
work, what they moan about.
We've spoken heavily about the
money that you spend. You
understand money coming in,
money going out, right? You can
talk from a CFO point of view,
so you have that advantage, but,
but this is the missing piece. A
seller needs to learn how to
speak the language of the person
they're selling to, why they get
up, why they go to work, how
they describe their problems.
And actually not, you know, I've
said it a few times, not the
headlines, what the actual root
cause is, and what's the
language to use when they go
home of an evening and they moan
about their day. What language
do they use? Because if you can
talk that language, I absolutely
agree that's when you connect.
That's when you build
credibility and trust. And
actually, it doesn't even matter
if they like you or not. They
trust you, and people get it
wrong. They think they need to
be liked, and that can lead to
ghosting, that can lead to
client indecision and and I
agree with you, Indecision is a
huge problem right now. But
again, that's a headline. So
many things lead to indecision.
What do you see as the root
causes for indecision? There's a
lot
Niraj Kapur: of crossover
between indecision and ghosting.
Of course, you gotta acknowledge
that. So a lot of indecision is
just they have other stuff going
on, just like in ghosting. But
love Indecision is just
sometimes they have to wait back
to hear from other people, and
not everybody's a great
communicator. A lot of the time,
people just don't communicate to
other people look and when they
get back an answer from such and
such. I'll come back to you
shortly. And so it's indecision,
and it's a real problem people
have, but it's not the end of
the world, and too many sales
people treat it like it's the
end of the world. And my advice
to sales people everywhere is,
if you don't get a decision from
somebody, please, for the love
of God, do not send them an
email saying, I've not heard
back from you. What are your
thoughts? Which is, what the
most common thing they do is, or
they write it off too quickly.
You know the amount of effort
you have to make right now to do
business with people, you should
need a minimum of seven to 10
touch points. And of course,
bigger companies more touch
points, and yet, most people
give up after two or three
attempts. So what I do? Because
bear in mind, whatever sales
people go through I also have to
go through a lot of the time as
a business owner, because so
much of my work is out. Bound
and prospecting based. And so
therefore people ghost me, and
people still make indecisions
with me. And so what I do is I
still make sure I am giving them
value. And what does that mean?
The word value could be quite
abstract. I will make sure I
click the bell next to their
LinkedIn profile. So when they
do post on LinkedIn, I at least
see what they're talking about,
and I can either like and
comment on those posts or
message them and give my
thoughts on their posts. I will
make sure I sign up to their
company's blog or newsletter,
which you can do with most
companies. So at least I'm Kel
well, well informed of what the
company is doing, so I can drop
emails or LinkedIn DMS or send
videos saying I really like what
you've done here, or here's an
article I read. I had a client
ghost me recently. He was really
interested in me doing sales
presentations with his team, and
I couldn't get hold of him. I
thought, You know what, dear
James, it's mid July. I hope
you're having an amazing
holiday, which is fine, because
I get it. It's summertime. If
you're not on holiday and you're
you're very busy being a CEO, I
get it. Every CEO I work with is
super busy. Here's an article I
wrote on Salesforce about how to
do better sales presentations.
Your team will get so much value
from this. I just thought you'd
appreciate sharing it with them.
Best wishes, Mirage, that's it,
and I got a response within half
a day. Thank you so much. I've
been really busy. Shared it with
my team. I'll come back to you
soon. That's better, because I
gave value to that person. And
by the way, it doesn't have to
be an article you're written.
Can be an article somebody else
has written, but you're dealing
with their problems, you're
dealing with their challenges,
and you're being a person of
value. And when it comes to
clients being indecisive, giving
them tonnes of value can
sometimes help move the needle
in the right direction. And I
say can sometimes help, because
a lot of the time you don't hear
from people that
Mark Ackers: is part, part of
the course with sales, and it's
about being disconnected from
the outcome, which, which is so
hard because we're measured on
the outcome. But what I like is
you're sharing content with no
ask. It's trying to be helpful,
trying to trying to remain
connected and be diligent. And
actually it is rare that sales
trainers will proactively
prospect, right? They do rely on
referrals, which you've said is
always better, but it only gets
you one step close, but that's
what a lot of people rely on.
It's rare. And I spoke to a lot
of sales trainers when I was
working at refract. I was
responsible for selling to sales
writers. That's actually how you
and I met. I don't know how much
you remember, but I think it was
around 2020. We had a discovery
call where I was I was trying to
run a discovery call with you
for a fact and your sales
training business. But yeah,
it's, I've sort of lost my train
of thought slightly, but it was
really good. But you got my
attention when you called me. So
what do you Well, it's
interesting. You remember that?
What do you remember from that
five years?
Niraj Kapur: I remember most
cold calls I get are so bad,
right? I get good ones. I do
remember them because there's so
I get one or two good cold calls
a year. Now, obviously, since I
bought your book, since then, I
know of my sales coach, I'm a
bit more aware of who you are,
but you knew who I was. You'd
researched my business, and you
said something which isn't as
original now, but it was my
original five years ago. Can I
have 35 seconds here? Tell me,
whoa, 35 seconds. What's going
on here? Because nobody, nobody
ever said that to me. I'm like,
okay, I'd be 35 seconds. And
then I think you talked for a
minute. I stopped using Hey. You
said 35 seconds, which was a
dick move, I know, but you said
35 seconds, but I respected you
for calling me. It takes courage
to pick up the phone. You've
done your research on me and
used an opener that I hadn't
heard before. Even if I got a
cold call, I've only had, I
think, two cold calls this year
that were good. One person said
to me, hi, this is a cold call.
You want to hang up. And I know
it's an oldie, but it made me
laugh. You know what? You made a
cold call. I'll give you 60
seconds. I always give them 60
seconds, because I know how hard
it is, but I get one or two cold
calls a month. That's it. It's
not like my phone. My phone
number has been public for
years. I recently hit it just so
people can stop calling me. But
it's been public for years, but
still, people insist on
bombarding me by email, copy and
paste, emails, AI, emails which
are terrible, or sending me
terrible LinkedIn, DMS, which
all look and sound, copy and
paste. And if I read something
and it stinks of copy and paste,
I will delete it, or I'll
archive it on LinkedIn or on
email, I will delete it
immediately. And that's what
people think I'm hard to get
hold of. I just ignore most
stuff because I don't appreciate
copy and paste. You want me to
do business with you, you make
it personal, and if I sense it's
a mass email you've lost
Mark Ackers: already. I don't
disagree. I think again, people
listening to this podcast will
be of this mindset anyway,
because they're listening right?
They're an hour into this
podcast. But nothing you've said
there is groundbreaking. It
actually is just the basics that
people don't do the beginning.
Niraj Kapur: Exactly what I said
at the beginning. So much seals
the basic stuff.
Mark Ackers: It's about standing
out. And it's easy to stand out
in a sea of shit. It's easy. It
is about going just that, that
little bit further right, like
that, just putting an extra step
in, do something that's a little
bit harder, that takes a little
bit more time, a little bit more
effort, and you will stand out.
You know, people talk about cold
calling is dead, or emailing is
dead. Actually, it's only dead
if you shit it, if you just put
a little bit more effort in
email works, cold calling works
and voice notes, what that? It
all works, and that's what I
like about you. As I say, you're
still practising what you
preach. You're not just relying
on referrals and you've got your
own cadence for winning your own
business, and you've had
difficult year last year, a
difficult year five years ago,
when we first met, and you've
kept going. And what you're
doing now is leading the way for
many others by training and
coaching and developing them. I
love that about you know, you're
a very positive person that
brings a lot of good to the
world of sales. And there's a
reason, you know, Salesforce
have voted you the top sales
influencer to follow for five
years in a row. Why LinkedIn has
given you the top voice for
people to connect with. You do a
lot of good. And you know,
again, when I you say, What's
favourite book I've called you,
you produce a book straight
away, what podcast is that you
produce a podcast straightaway,
you really practice what you
preach and bring real profession
to it. And I think if you agree
with this, I'm sure you will,
but that's the mindset thing
that we haven't spoke about. The
difference, for me, in that 15%
are people that realise that
this is a skill, people that
have realised that sales isn't
just something you do because
you want to make a quick buck.
It's actually a profession. It's
a discipline, if you learn it
and dedicate yourself and go
above and beyond to read,
listen, watch, master your
craft, seek coaching. You can
get better at it and listen to
podcasts. This might be
someone's first step for someone
listening to this, but I think
this has been a great
conversation. I honestly have
about seven pages of questions
that I wanted to ask you, and I
think I've asked like five.
We've just had a great
conversation. I've really
enjoyed it. This tells me that
we should continue speaking, and
perhaps there's a sequel episode
out there, but I'm conscious of
your time as well and where
we're up to, so I think let's
wrap it there. Niraj, you've
written three books. I know of
all three, I've researched them.
I had questions on them, but I
won't get around to it. But tell
everybody a little bit more
about just who you are
connecting you on LinkedIn and
the books that you've written,
sure
Niraj Kapur: everybody works in
sales after seven years, is
still a book everybody buys
because it's only 160 pages.
It's easy to read and it's
storytelling. And by the way,
just a quick bonus point, there
not not. People still tourists
sell Tories, not not. People
still use stories and selling.
And when you tell stories and
presentations their goals. So
please bear that in mind. So
yeah, everybody works in sales.
Is a story of my sales career.
The second book was the easy
guide to sales for business
owners, because so many of my
clients at that time were
business owners. And the third
book was business growth lessons
learned from dating, divorce and
falling in love, because I went
viral and I became big on
LinkedIn by talking about my
personal life and my dating life
and relating it to sales. And I
thought, well, I became huge on
LinkedIn. This way, I picked up
like 20,000 followers, I went
viral several times. If I do
this in a book, the book will
become huge. No, it didn't. But
you know what? I spent two years
of my life in that bugger and it
was one of the best experiences
my life. And actually hired a
team of people, and it was a
wonderful experience. I didn't
get the outcome I wanted, but
it's the best book I've done,
and I'm very proud
Mark Ackers: of it, and so you
should be, and it's important
you're not attached to the
outcome. It's it's about the
journey, not just the
destination. Niraj, I do love
your content on LinkedIn. I've
got a feeling we're going to do
some work together with my sales
coach as well. And yeah, thank
you for coming on. You've been a
great guest, and we'll speak
soon. It's an
Niraj Kapur: absolute pleasure,
and I can't wait. Thank you so
much. Mark. You