Another Zelda Podcast

After weeks of adventuring through the seas and dungeons on the Nintendo DS, David and Kady finally sit down to review Phantom Hourglass! From its inventive touch controls to the unforgettable antics of Linebeck, they unpack what makes this Wind Waker sequel both unique and surprising. Was the Temple of the Ocean King a stroke of genius or just a slog? And which moments stood out the most in their playthrough?

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Creators and Guests

Host
David Geisler
KR
Host
Kady Roberts

What is Another Zelda Podcast?

It’s a secret to everybody. | Another Zelda Podcast is a show wherein we talk about all things regarding The Legend of Zelda series!

Kady Roberts:

Hello and welcome to another Zelda podcast. My name is Katie and I'm here with

David Geisler:

David. David. I got I got the eyes.

Kady Roberts:

David, how are you doing?

David Geisler:

I'm I'm well. I'm so good. I'm I'm I'm quite well. I'm so excited to after months of playing this game, I'm just so excited to do another proper review episode.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. We are doing Phantom Hourglass review. I am unbelievably excited for it. I think this is the first well, I played Ocarina of Time three d.

David Geisler:

Yeah. That was really our first we've done actually we've kind of done a number of review episodes this season. We usually we usually only do like two, maybe three a season, but this is our third already.

Kady Roberts:

No. Mean, like, I think this is the first d s the proper d s game that I reviewed.

David Geisler:

I see. I'm so sorry.

Kady Roberts:

No. You're

David Geisler:

good. Ocarina of Time three d was a three DS game.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, this is the first, like, DS Zelda that I've played and the first DS Zelda. Right?

David Geisler:

Yeah. A 100%. True true to both. Yeah. Absolutely.

David Geisler:

So

Kady Roberts:

it's exciting. I'm excited.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Phantom Hourglass came out at a time before the Wii existed, before Twilight Princess existed. I actually have a little bit of information about the development, IG Aonuma was working on Twilight Princess while he was producing this game. There was a different person who was a director. It was a real it was a bit of an experiment because the DS was the first system that could truly kind of actually draw polygons

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

And draw three d artwork. Its screen resolution was really, really low. It didn't actually have a lot of processing power when it came to drawing those polygons, certainly nothing like the 3DS. And so there were still a lot of concessions, but it was decided that the Wind Waker art style would be used for Phantom Hourglass. I think

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Because they didn't have to render any real light. Was these big blocky characters works well on a tinier screen with less pixels. Katie, for you, how much of a heads up did you have about this game before we started playing it for review?

Kady Roberts:

I knew nothing about it.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Really?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I I literally knew nothing. I kept getting it mixed up with Spirit Tracks even.

David Geisler:

Well, I mean, that tracks. That tracks. Yeah. Because we're gonna play Spirit Tracks too at some point because that's the sequel to this game.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I like that this is a nice little trilogy. It's fun.

David Geisler:

I mean, guess it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is.

David Geisler:

It's interesting. It's what? Wind Waker?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Wind Waker and then Phantom Hourglassland spirit tracks.

David Geisler:

I think it's the same link all the way through. No.

Kady Roberts:

It

David Geisler:

is. Well, I've heard the spirit tracks might be a different link in a different Zelda like a hundred years later, but I actually think well, we'll know when we play Spirit Tracks. It's one of the few games I I haven't played yet. But I've I'm I'm under the impression that it is the same Link and same Zelda Mhmm. Going into Spirit Tracks.

David Geisler:

Like, essentially, they have this game. They continue on and hit a continent and turn it into what's called new Hyrule in Spirit Tracks is what I understand. But Phantom Hourglass, yeah, absolutely. I've got a little bit of, before we, like, get into all of our thoughts oh, wait. We're jumping forward.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm. You wanna do listener feedback?

David Geisler:

I do. I do.

Kady Roberts:

Okay. Do you wanna start or you want me to start?

David Geisler:

We we have like three, but one of them is like a a bot a bot have five.

Kady Roberts:

We have five. But one of them is three on the same episode.

David Geisler:

Like episode or something? Yeah. Or something? Well, I don't know. Yeah.

David Geisler:

You know what? You went first last time. How about I go first this time? I guess it doesn't really matter too much. Here we go.

David Geisler:

So this is by Wim Wim Palkmans, Wim the Greenkeeper over on what looks like it's a direct message on perhaps Instagram. Yeah. Absolutely. So sorry. Pardon me.

David Geisler:

I mentioned in the preshow that I'm I've just gotten over a cold, and so I still have a little bit of that vibration in my in my throat, in my esophagus. Yeah. So, when Katie, this is a a comment to reply over on Instagram when you and I posted that picture of us working on the rest of season seven when we were over at West Town Bakery. And, in that post, it might have even been like a story technically. I asked.

David Geisler:

I said, hey. Any requests for episodes? And so we hear from whim underscore the underscore green keeper. Oh, okay. Well, whim is asking a weird one, rom hack and randomizer episode.

David Geisler:

This is not the first time we've had this request. We actually get this request a couple times a season.

Kady Roberts:

Uh-huh.

David Geisler:

And I I love it. I love the idea of exploring fandom culture that goes outside of the games.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

And there might be a time that we're able to speak to that, but right now, I don't we don't really have the resources, I'm definitely not the, I really don't have any, like, firsthand experience with playing randomizers or anything like that. But maybe if there's a guest that comes along our way or someone we meet where we could have that conversation, that's cool. As well, it's a little touchy because there's, like, kind of randomizers have to run on rom hacks and stuff like that. And I'm not fully against that if you also like paid for the game and also if the game is twenty years old, is it and it's not even available for resale. Is it part of history?

David Geisler:

Is it there's a whole conversation to be had there. But I do think that this kind of subculture or artistic expression expression of of randomizers randomizers and all these other ways to play with code in history is awesome. But also, Wim Pelkin Pelkmans says, I just listened to the Little Heroes episode. Great episode. Really liked it.

David Geisler:

I was waiting for my favorite kid, Erem, the Oracle Erem of the Oracle Games. Maybe in the Oracle Games? Maple the witch. 100%. Yeah.

David Geisler:

A shame she wasn't in the episode, but you made me replay Breath of the Wild because of the Hatno Kids. Thanks for the episode. Keep it up. Green heart times 100 emoji. Love it.

David Geisler:

That's that yeah. That's that's the best, Wim. Thank you so much. I love it. Instead of a 100 green hearts, it's a it was an emoji on top of an emoji.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, cute.

David Geisler:

Yeah. We talked about those had no kids and went went back in. That's so cool. That's awesome. I really enjoyed that conversation when you and I were talking about the little heroes of legend.

David Geisler:

Yeah. And let's see. Let's see. There was one other thing that they said there.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, about, the So

David Geisler:

Maple is a a daughter let's just say a child witch in the Oracle games. And she flies around and she flies around and wreaks some havoc on Link.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, okay.

David Geisler:

I know you haven't played those games yet, I don't wanna, like, put too much out there.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

But let's put it this way. You could just be walking around the overworld, and sometimes she'll choose to interact with Link, and maybe Link can use hey. Wait. You've played in in Phantom Hourglass, there are rats that bump into Link and try to steal his stuff?

Kady Roberts:

Oh, yeah. They have that in Wind Waker too.

David Geisler:

And in Wind Waker. Well, before Wind Waker, before Phantom Hourglass, a character named Maple did similar things in the Oracle games

Kady Roberts:

Okay.

David Geisler:

For Game Boy. Cute. Yeah. Cool. So, yeah, that's a great pick.

David Geisler:

Love it. Thank you so much, Wim.

Kady Roberts:

So this is a real fresh one. This is from our top 10 sorcerers and episode and this is over on YouTube.

David Geisler:

Holy moly.

Kady Roberts:

This is from Triforce Liz.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

I am so happy you two are reviewing Okami next. If you haven't played it yet, I'm positive you guys are going to love it. It's filled to the brim with charm and beauty. It's somehow so similar to three d Zelda while still feeling like it has its own distinct identity. The combat is so inventive and fun and the adventure factor is off the charts.

Kady Roberts:

The dog humor is also perfection. If you couldn't tell, it's my all time favorite game, though Zelda has always been my favorite special interest series. Katie was right on the money, my average playthrough is usually thirty five hours. Oh. Thank you guys for always cheering me up with your Zelda and video game enthusiasm.

Kady Roberts:

Three green hearts.

David Geisler:

Well, thank you so much. What was the screen name or the person's

Kady Roberts:

name again? This is Triforce Liz.

David Geisler:

Triforce Liz. We hear from Triforce Liz from time to time. I love it so much. Thank you so much for the, input. Yes.

David Geisler:

It's true. We've we are doing a review episode of Phantom Hourglass right now. And, once in a while, we like to do a review episode of what I would call a Zelda like game, a game that is clearly a different company other than Nintendo, very much clearly trying to make their version of what a Zelda game is. And whenever we review these kind of Zelda like games, it creates a conversation of what makes a Zelda game be a Zelda game and all the rest. But in my opinion, Okami, which I haven't played yet, you haven't played yet, this is gonna be new for both of us, is in line with, like, the classic Zelda style game.

David Geisler:

And Okami also came out around the same time that Twilight Princess did, which is interesting. So I can't wait to play Okami next. Yeah. I I actually booted it up the other day, and the intro is long. I think I've sat there for ten, fifteen minutes before I was able to actually do anything just reading text.

David Geisler:

But Mhmm. It's also kinda that was like what games were ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. You know what I mean? Like, where a cutscene was just like

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. See the list of my phone of Zelda like games, so hopefully, can do a lot of them.

David Geisler:

I love it. I love it. Maybe you want a season. It's been many seasons since we've done one. The last one we did, of course, was Beyond Good and Evil by Ubisoft, and, Kate Kate and I reviewed that many, many seasons ago.

David Geisler:

Alright. For our here's a comment on two comments on our top 10 items we wish we had in real life episode. Let's see. Over here, Eduardo Castle says, hello. I've been listening to this podcast forever now.

David Geisler:

You guys are my company during work. First of all, love it. I absolutely relate to David since I've been a fan of Zelda ever since I was born. At just two months old, my grandma put a SNES controller in my hands. My absolute favorite game is Twilight Princess.

David Geisler:

Cool. But I love everything Zelda. Minish Cap is also a favorite. I'm excited for you to play that. I've said that before.

David Geisler:

It has a a ton of charm. I absolutely love Katie too. She's amazing. Oh, okay. I would love to know what are your thoughts on the upcoming Zelda movie for green hearts and then for yellow hearts.

David Geisler:

Interesting. I wonder what that's all about. We've shared some of our thoughts on the Zelda movie already on some of our Patreon episodes.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

But I I would say and Katie, I'll certainly give you a chance as well. But I would say that my thoughts so far are you know the expression cautiously optimistic?

Kady Roberts:

I was gonna say the same thing. Yeah.

David Geisler:

But I think I'm leaning away from the cautiously. I think I'm leaning into, like, good vibes optimistic. Okay. There's there's certain signs and certain indicators of what this this film might be like. I think I'm very excited about the casting announcement.

David Geisler:

I think I'm very excited about the director, Wes Ball. I think his previous work actually is a is a nice portfolio for what a Zelda movie could be. Mhmm. And that's my thought. I don't know.

David Geisler:

Where are at with this whole thing?

Kady Roberts:

I'm really excited, especially after the casting announcements came out. And, yeah, I'm really curious. I'm very curious about what this is gonna be. If it's gonna be an original story or if it's gonna be based on the games and kind of what the different races they might put in are. Are we gonna see the Zora?

Kady Roberts:

Are we gonna see the Deku Scrubs? Like, what are we gonna see?

David Geisler:

100%.

Kady Roberts:

I'm excited.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. I am too. So for now, excited. I guess we'll see when that first trailer drops.

David Geisler:

I'm sure the first one would be very very teaser y and probably not too much. Maybe it'll just get us used to seeing what Link looks like or who knows what. But anyway, the other variable that I'll add in here, Eryfem, is that, oh, wait. No. I'm sorry.

David Geisler:

I'm sorry. That's another comment. Eduardo Castles is I think we should take note, and we spoke about this more in our Patreon episode. I think we should take note that the film is going to come out right around the same time that the alleged Ocarina of Time remake for Switch two would come out. And I personally feel that that may not be an accident and that's all I'll say about that.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Alright. On the same well, was a there's a whole bunch of comments Yes.

Kady Roberts:

A three

David Geisler:

comment one. Real life thing. Why don't you go to the next one? Think this was all over on Spotify or something like that.

Kady Roberts:

It looks like it. Yeah. So this is Eryphem on the same episode. Probably a lame pick but I'd take the triforce from any of the games where Link picks it up into his inventory, example Skyward Sword. It grants you a wish, any wish, so yeah.

Kady Roberts:

If not, I'd probably take the Ocarina of Time as well because I don't care about the consequences. Slowing down time or starting the day over is too good a deal for me. Great episode and love y'all with probably about 25 green hearts.

David Geisler:

Remember because we were saying like the Ocarina of Time would be dangerous?

Kady Roberts:

Oh, it'd be so dangerous. Are you kidding me?

David Geisler:

That broke that that broke my cough a little bit. Oh my gosh. Who cares? That would be too good. I love it.

David Geisler:

Yeah. That's great. That's great. Uncle your time as well. The Triforce as an item, I'm trying to think.

David Geisler:

Triforce, one of the games where Link picks it up into his inventory like Skyward Sword. Does does Link put the Triforce in his in yeah. I guess so.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I guess technically.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Love it.

David Geisler:

Thank you so much, Eryfem. And then last day on the same episode, Will over here said, hi. Been listening to the pod for two years and loving it. My number one item would be the tri rod. Yes.

David Geisler:

So I could swim straight up the top of a mountain. Thank you for the podcast. A whole bunch of green heart emojis. Awesome. Yes.

David Geisler:

Yes. Absolutely. That would be swim up a mountain. I think so. Yeah.

David Geisler:

I mean, like, we could get into it, like, with the water be splashing into your face like you're, like, being tugged from the back of a motorboat or something? Would it be too fast? But I don't think we need to

Kady Roberts:

get into those details. So, you were talking about some of the game developer stuff of Phantom Hourglass.

David Geisler:

For Phantom Hourglass?

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Sure.

Kady Roberts:

Let's just hop in.

David Geisler:

I love it. So I I went in and I did a little bit of research because I actually didn't know much about the development of this game. Mhmm. My introduction to Phantom Hourglass was the Minish Cap had come out. I was in college and actually, like in 2001 or something is when the Oracle games came off for Game Boy Color.

David Geisler:

I started playing them when I was in my first year or two of of college over at Columbia College.

Kady Roberts:

So my brother was born.

David Geisler:

Really? Well, remember what? Wait. What?

Kady Roberts:

My brother was born in 02/2001.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Cool.

David Geisler:

And I kinda remember walking literally walking around campus the way people might have their iPhones in their hands right now with, like, a Game Boy Color. It's around here somewhere. Game Boy Color oh, this one. In my hand

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

And you just kinda it was like an accessory, and, you know, you you play for a little bit, and then you'd stop playing. But a year or two later, Minish Cap came out, and I remember walking around with my Game Boy Advance. I had a white one. This is a red one. And kind of walking around campus my junior year, my sophomore year of college Mhmm.

David Geisler:

And playing it literally, like, in the sound building that you and I have been in. Like, in Yeah. Floor, like, hangout areas. The student center didn't exist back then, and I would just be, on campus playing Minish Cap. But the whole time that Minish Cap was happening, this is when kind of the Internet was getting into a place where you could like download or watch videos on the Internet.

David Geisler:

And, there was there was a trailer that got released for the Phantom Hourglass, which is an upcoming DS game. The DS had just been out for a little bit. Everybody was wondering what the new Zelda game could be like. And, in the trailer, they only showed what you and I would understand and all of our listeners would understand to be like the bottom screen of this game.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

So they only showed really like the action and Link running around. And everybody was like, oh my gosh. It's so cool. Look. They're actually rendering real three d because Minish Cap is still sprites.

David Geisler:

Yeah. You know? They're like, they're actually rendering real three d and it's the Wind Waker style. Isn't it cool that they're able to do this on a DS? And then I think it was IGN or maybe it was 1up.com noted, wait, the fairy's moving around kind of weird in that trailer.

David Geisler:

In all the gameplay footage, the fairy seemed to lead Link in a way. Mhmm. The fairy was always out in front of Link, and Link was following the fairy. And I think it was 1up.com back then. They're they're now defunct.

David Geisler:

But, who pitched the idea, they said, wait, we may not be seeing the whole picture here. This is a touch based interface game. Mhmm. Maybe you control Link by touching the screen. And this hadn't been released at all yet, and they made this pause, and it was all very exciting.

David Geisler:

And so that was my introduction to this game in real time back then in the day. And so just here's a couple stats real quick. Not stats, but some some info. The producer of the game is Eiji Aonuma.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Legendary Eiji Aonuma who was the producer and director for Wind Waker. Along with Majora's Mask, we kind of know the history here. Iji Aonuma is the Iji Aonuma of Zelda these days. This is kind of where he was getting his start. The director though is Daiki Iwamoda.

David Geisler:

I've never heard this name before, and it's honestly I might be kind of slaughtering the pronunciation, but it's d a I k I.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

And Daiki Iwamoto, started as a programmer at Nintendo and worked on some Mario and Zelda titles, but, he was the boss battle director for Four Swords Adventures, which came out before this

Kady Roberts:

game. Uh-huh.

David Geisler:

You know, that was the GameCube, four player game. And, he worked on he became the lead planner for different Zelda franchises, directing Phantom Hourglass. He also then went ahead and directed Spirit Tracks, which is, of course, the sequel. Mhmm. And kind of interestingly, we've already experienced Daiki's work because he also directed the Wind Waker HD remake.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, okay.

David Geisler:

Which is kinda cool. Insisting on other titles. In Skyward Sword, he was in charge of planning Skyloft and the sky. Oh. And also, sits on the board.

David Geisler:

This is actually quite interesting because there's a secondary company that works with Nintendo a lot when it comes to Zelda games.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

He sits on the board at Monolith Soft.

Kady Roberts:

Cool.

David Geisler:

Do you recall Monolith Soft? I don't mean to like test your quiz you right now.

Kady Roberts:

I remember the name. Are they not the people that did the Majora's Mask or is that something different?

David Geisler:

That is something different. That's that's the people that went on to do Echoes of Wisdom and stuff like that. I honestly, I can't remember the name right now even though I've said their name a 100 times in in in these episodes. But Monolith Soft, they're the company that does they they make they make another big game series, and I'm I I I'm not totally forgetting it. It's not in my notes.

David Geisler:

But what happens is, in Skyward Sword, Nintendo, they were making the Skyward Sword game, and they hired Monolith Soft to help make the areas that were between the dungeons. So all the areas that kinda like, the big thing with Skyward Sword, it was like, yes, there's dungeons, but even the overworld feels like a dungeon. Even the older overworld has puzzles to solve Yeah. And and all of that. And Monolith Soft helped a lot with that.

David Geisler:

They also helped with, you know, creating like the the tiered system of of upgrading things in Skyward Sword. If you're googling them right now, you're gonna get the name. It's it's it's a series of games. There's three of them out right now, and even some of them have been rereleased for

Kady Roberts:

Oh, Xenoblade Chronicles. Xenoblade Chronicles.

David Geisler:

I was remembering to see.

Kady Roberts:

That's why they're familiar

David Geisler:

So to Xenoblade Chronicles people. Well, anyways, it's cool because also Nintendo hires Monolith Soft to help them. They helped them with some of the Breath of the Wild world building.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

They hired them again for Tears of the Kingdom. And so so there's there's all these, like, connections here where with Daiki, Iwatamoto, you know, working in all these different capacities. As well, he was the cinema this is actually my favorite little piece of information. The director of Phantom Hourglass was the cinema scene worked on the cinema scene unit as the assistant director for the original Ocarina of Time.

Kady Roberts:

Nice.

David Geisler:

So in many ways, you know, he he worked on, creating the shots and the cut scenes and all of that, and there was a lot of praise for Ocarina of Time for it being very cinematic when it first came out. I'd like to jump back to Phantom Hourglass here. I feel that even with the limited hardware and the limited polygon count and the limited pixels, I feel like the cut scenes in Phantom Hourglass, many of them were quite cinematic.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. That's one of the things I've enjoyed the most about this game is I feel like I'm watching a movie most of the time. I feel like there's so many good small gags in the background from like there's a scene when Link is talking to Oshu and it's on Linebeck's ship and you just see them talking and then Linebeck is in the background leaning on Tetra and he knocks her over when she's stoned and has to like quickly try and get her back up and it doesn't get addressed. I know. It's like things like that were also like, we'll get into it, but when an Oshuu towards the end becomes the ocean king and he splashes the water and the water comes over, like Link, I think, grabbing on and like stays and then you just see Linebeck roll all the way to the other end of the screen because he got splashed through the water.

Kady Roberts:

I think it's so funny.

David Geisler:

I was I've I've only recently experienced the end of the game again since the first time I experienced it, like, very recently within the last week or two. And I was shocked by how much, like, some of the ending cinematic cut scenes and stuff, how well, frankly, how cinematic they were. Mhmm. And and and when I say cinematic, there's not a lot of power that the DS can pump out. It's not like there's, like, swooping shadows and camera moves, but well, maybe there are some actually There's couple of that are pretty cool.

David Geisler:

So even with the graphics being kind of simple Mhmm. There's a lot of smart choices being made cinematically. You know what I mean? So okay. So development started in May 2004.

David Geisler:

At this stage, the DS wasn't yet released, so they were designing a game for a system that wasn't fully done. You know, this is always how it works with with a system that's not out yet. And, when the when the early so a lot of the team that worked on Forced Sword Adventures worked on this game. And I often forget I often accidentally think that Capcom did Four Swords Adventures, but they didn't. That was a Nintendo project.

David Geisler:

Because there's a little bit of a spiritual success for successor of the Oracle games to Minish Cap, then it kinda feels like they moved towards four swords with that Game Boy Advance remake, but that was all Nintendo. And then the game then the four swords adventures was also apparently Nintendo, and so it's easy to I I I think I've even misspoken in the past. Anyways, a lot of the four swords adventure team, they were kinda tasked to make the DS Zelda game. Mhmm. And initially, most of what they were trying to do was, like a multiplayer game.

David Geisler:

They were considering because the DS had all this connectivity. They're like, well, what if it's four links running around? Right? Just kinda like we did with the Game Boy Advance and four swords adventures on the GameCube. And that's where a lot of the early prototypes actually started with this game.

David Geisler:

It took a while for them to actually shift down into this other kind of play style. Mhmm. Now real quick, I was gonna actually say this for later in the episode, but you and I did experience the multiplayer version of this game at the Zelda Dungeon marathon two years ago. Mhmm. That's really was all that that that remained when it came to a multiplayer situation is that it's think it's like three people controlling the the Phantoms and then one person controlling Link.

David Geisler:

Right?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. It was cool. I didn't realize until I played Phantom Hourglass that that's what that was because they just brought me down and were like, hey, play this game. I was like, okay. I had no clue what game it was.

Kady Roberts:

So then when I booted up on my DS Yeah. I was like, battle mode. Yeah. And then I played and I got to the temple and I'm like, these are the guys I was running from.

David Geisler:

Oh, when you played the the adventure mode or whatever. Right? The main game. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So, yeah. I I didn't realize until I started playing an actual playthrough of Phantom Hourglass that's what that was. But it's fun. I loved it.

David Geisler:

There's there's some, like, light connections to Pac Man versus and stuff like that. There's there's there's all these threads to to have happen. But, the only thing I'd like to point out is that, pretty quickly, there was once they learned that there was gonna be a lot of touch screen stuff happening with the DS, this is before the DS you know, it certainly was not a release title for the DS. The DS was out for a couple years by the time Phantom Hourglass came out. But, apparently, there was a heavy emphasis on having, if not all controls, controlled by the touch the touch screen, and IG and Pneuma apparently was really pushing for this according to my notes.

David Geisler:

I feel that this game expertly deals with touch controls and dual screen. Yeah. Like, every single boss is an an amazing reinterpretation of why it's important to have two screens.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

How did the touch screens I'm gonna look at my notes here in a second, but how did the touch screen interface and control affect you right off the bat?

Kady Roberts:

I was immediately intrigued. It did take me a while, not to because normally when I play, I have my one hand on the move buttons. I was playing on my 3DS, so it was, what, the c stick? The control, little circle control to move around.

David Geisler:

Are you talking about the control stick over on the left I side of the

Kady Roberts:

was gonna stop control stick and c stick. The control stick. One of

David Geisler:

most I ever seen.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So, normally, I have, you know, that to move around and then the other on the buttons. So took me a while when I was first playing because my instinct would be to try and move with the stick and I'm like, why am I not moving?

David Geisler:

It was probably just like queuing menus and maps up and down and stuff.

Kady Roberts:

So, I learned to just play with like, my hand behind the console so I didn't accidentally do anything. Yeah. But I loved the movement. I loved, the attacks. I thought was super fun and interesting.

David Geisler:

I mean, at the end of the day, you've touched two attack.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. No. I I thought all of the controls felt really good, really seamless. The only thing that was a little touchy was some of the drawing aspects in the game.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Because not all the time, but a lot of the time, you know, you would get the the slate where you could kind of fast travel and you would draw the little symbols and sometimes it'll just be like, you draw the symbol, draw the symbol, draw the symbol.

David Geisler:

The the halfway through the game, that triforce that you have to draw in the ocean so many times.

Kady Roberts:

That's what I mean. Like, some of the ones, it was really finicky, but once you got it, it was like, alright, perfect. But that being said, I love the fact that you're able to draw on your map and that there is like, there's this one island that is uncharted uncharted and and so so you you have have to to draw the island as you go around it and you find out it's the shape of a whale. Yep. I love that kind of stuff.

Kady Roberts:

Or you find a code and it'll be like, oh, better write this down and it'll pause and then you can write it down and they're like, did you get it? And it's like, yep. And then you can go and do it. It's it's cute. I love it.

David Geisler:

Well, and it's interesting because it's kind of like a full circle moment with video games because in the early days of, like, Nintendo games

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Even even the original Legend of Zelda, there wasn't you know, the overworld map was kind of in the instruction manual, but it was very common for people who played the original Metroid on Nintendo or the original Zelda to literally use graph paper and draw their own maps.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

It was like, as a kid, that's just what you did. And you would keep your own notes, your own paper notes. And then as video games matured over the years, let's say even fifteen, twenty years, the games started real like, games matured enough where there would be in game systems to keep track of those things. Mhmm. So if if a certain character told you, go to the go to the island east of whatever or go find the forest that that has the the weird smell to it or who knows what.

David Geisler:

You know, in in game, we had gotten to a point after two or three console generations, not just Nintendo games, but in video gaming in general, where you you in your head would go, okay. I kinda remember that. I guess it's like a little mini quest or whatever. And by the time your character got to the forest that smelled weird, this is all hypothetical, some other character would be like, oh, we've made it to the forest that smells weird. Let's let's do the thing that person told us about because because they were responding to games being so difficult in the early eighties Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Where you had to write all that stuff down yourself. Yeah. And so GameCube games, which which came out before Phantom Hourglass, GameCube games, Xbox games, PS two games, they were all kind of in that space. We might find this with Akamiya a little bit, where there was a lot of I dare I say, like, handholding, but the games, they didn't really force you to remember things or memorize things to take later. It was more like, oh, you I mean, let's face it.

David Geisler:

Even in Ocarina of Time, it was like, learned that song. Well, you didn't have to go and write it down somewhere. Like, you could still pull it up in your menu and look that it's like up Yeah. Down, left, up, down, left, up down left. You know what I mean?

David Geisler:

Mhmm. The coolest thing about Phantom Hourglass is that it's almost an accidental throwback to, no, you gotta write it down.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

Like, they're gonna give this some this character is gonna show you a spot on a map, or this character is gonna give you some hint, or you're gonna experience where a secret pit is in a dungeon, and if you don't literally draw it on the map that is conveniently part of the game

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

You will you're not gonna remember.

Kady Roberts:

Like Yeah. That's it. No. I I remember being so shocked when I learned. Obviously, you were like, okay, I'm drawing on the maps in the overworld, that you could draw it in the dungeons as well.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Because there's like one of the later Ocean Temple ones where you see one of the spirits walking, it looks like on air and you have to write down his path so you're able to follow him later on. It's just so it's smart. It's smart, it's cool and I feel like it's a great use of the touch pad.

David Geisler:

It was a it was it was I think it was a ton of fun. Obviously, the resolution's a little low, and I kind of had a few times where I felt like I was touching the pen in certain spots and it wasn't quite lining But you deal with what you gotta deal with. I will say that I also learned that in early development, the original like, the first concept when they were building the game was they had all the action on the upper screen, and the map was on the bottom screen. And you would touch the bottom screen and kind of steer Link around almost like you were using a control stick on the screen. Also, a few minutes ago, were talking about using the control stick on your 3DS.

David Geisler:

I'd like to remind you, I have it right here. The original DS It's did not have just a touch screen. It's just a touch screen and an up down left right, a Super Nintendo controller, essentially. So there wasn't even an idea of, like, oh, we're gonna move someone around in three d space with a control stick because it didn't exist. Mhmm.

David Geisler:

So on the original DS games like Super Mario 64, they would have you touch the screen and kinda drag your pen around, that would emulate a control stick. And that's how the team started working on Phantom Hourglass. Yeah. And they felt they decided, based on the things that I read, they decided that it felt too disconnected. Mhmm.

David Geisler:

And so they chose to swap it and actually put the map on the top screen, which is a little unconventional for the time Mhmm. For what games are doing with the DS, and actually put the main gameplay down on the bottom screen and have you touch the literal Mhmm. Gameplay screen.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I'm glad that they did that. I also was surprised that they put in I kind of forgot when I was playing that the DS and the three DS had the microphone. So, they used it sometimes in the game where they're like, oh, we need to like scare this person, we gotta figure out how to make a loud noise and I'm running around like, there's nothing to do, there's something to hit and then I'm like, there's a microphone, I forgot. Same with if you get to like different points with Beetle shopping, he will do the compliment card and he'll give him the card and he's like, alright, compliment me and he'll pause for you and you have to like say stuff.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And then he's like, oh, I love it. I love hearing it and whatever. It's it's fun. It's a cute little way to keep things going.

David Geisler:

I enjoyed that mechanic. It's a touch gimmicky but I enjoyed it. It was a little divisive at the time because there's nothing really in the game that would inform you, oh, I'm supposed to, in a meta way, blow at this thing or yell at this thing. Mhmm. You know what I mean?

David Geisler:

And so some people felt that it was maybe not fully conceived because it it did get a little meta. You are literally blowing a thing. And also I noticed this whole game gets a little meta Mhmm. Where it'll tell you, hey, save now, or, like, you know, it'll tell you it'll speak to your system. Make sure you push this button or something

Kady Roberts:

like that.

David Geisler:

But that's okay. I did I did enjoy that as well. And it's interesting. The DS had a had a microphone. The three DS had a microphone.

David Geisler:

The Wii U controller has a microphone.

Kady Roberts:

Really?

David Geisler:

The Wii U controller has a microphone.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, right. Because in, three d world or whatever, you blow it to, like, move platforms and stuff.

David Geisler:

Oh, yeah. You're right.

Kady Roberts:

You're right. That Mario game as a kid.

David Geisler:

Mario three d world. Yeah. Absolutely. I wonder how they do it on the DS or on the Switch remake for those blowing areas. Maybe they just hold r button or something.

Kady Roberts:

You know what mean?

David Geisler:

To, like, blow something. But anyway, so that also means that that you can you know, we've talked about how you can play Phantom Hourglass on the Wii U controller. You can still blow at it and all those things. But I digress. They decided to have the actual touch happen on the same gameplay screen, and I kinda wanna get move on from the history here a little bit.

David Geisler:

But I really would like to point out that when this game came out, you know, like, the iPhone seriously, the iPhone had just come out around the same time when the DS was announced. The idea that touch screens had existed since the eighties in different ways, but not really like the idea of a small screen you could touch. And certainly the idea that you could control a game just by touching the screen. These days, that's completely normal.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Our switches and our phones, and we can play our little puzzle games and touch a screen and move things around. We were touch we're touching screens to move through menus. But when Phantom Hourglass came out, the idea that you could control the game by touching the screen, and I'm not exaggerating this, was kind of revolutionary.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

The idea that you would touch touch the screen and drag it around and Link would follow it, and they contextualize it by you're really actually moving the fairy and Link is following the fairy. They had to put that in there because just the idea, like, if you were to just touch you know, how how many, like, I don't know, Mario style games do you play on your phone where you know you just, like, shove or you even play Fortnite on your phone. Just put your thumb on there, you shove left and right, you shove the other one up and down and we all kind of know that those are metaphors for analog controllers and stuff these days. But that stuff didn't exist when this game came out. So it was really truly revolutionary.

David Geisler:

They were really kind of thinking outside the box a little bit with that. Yeah. How did you feel about, and we'll get into the characters and levels and all of that, but how did you feel about queuing up the items, navigating the menus, navigating the map?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I didn't think it was bad. It just reminded me of like, you know, classic Zelda game where you only have one or two slots. So you just kind of swap things out. The only thing was it was a little difficult at times when you're in the middle of a boss fight and you kept having to switch back and forth and the action was still happening

David Geisler:

Yes.

Kady Roberts:

So you could still get hit. That's where I struggled. But I think it was really only one boss that was difficult for me when you're working with the Goron kid and having to swap back and forth and swap your items and everything still happening. That was difficult but other than that, it wasn't too bad.

David Geisler:

That was a lot. Now I know halfway through playing, you and I were I kinda queued you into the hotkey system of the left shoulder button.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, yeah. I completely forgot about it. Again. I never used it.

David Geisler:

So did you really truly did you really truly play this whole game just with your stylus? Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Okay. Stylus only.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. And and and honestly, I think I did 50% of the time. There was a lot of times where I'd be editing something here at this computer, and I would just lay my DS down on the table, the desk in front of me, and play like this.

Kady Roberts:

You know what mean?

David Geisler:

I would just set it down and look down. It's true that in the, original DS version, you could push left or right to queue up your item menu. So if you push left, your items would come over from the bottom and you could touch it, and it would go up into the little, you know, the special button in the upper right part of the screen. But if you hold l, it would automatically switch to that weapon. And then if you let go, it switches away back to sword.

David Geisler:

Oh, kind of like hold l and go bom bom bom and then go back and go sword, sword, sword, and stuff like that. And pushing up and down would swap your screens

Kady Roberts:

Okay.

David Geisler:

Real quick. Yeah. That does I the first time I played Phantom Hourglass, I used the hot buttons or whatever, hot keys constantly. It was the way I played it.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

You basically hold it like this, and you move you use this finger and these thumbs, and then you kinda hold the other hand and do the controls. Yeah. This time around, I did it, half and half. I did more just stylus only stuff, and I kinda wonder if that's because we as a culture are, like, fifteen years into this, like, you know, you can touch your screens idea and stuff like that.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Probably.

David Geisler:

But I do agree with you. I I also played the Dodongo boss without the you know, down on the desk without me really using the hot keys and it was a lot.

Kady Roberts:

It was a lot. Not bad, but a lot. Definitely not my favorite out of all the dungeons in this game, but there were so many good ones. I'm really excited to talk about it. But Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

We should probably go to break.

David Geisler:

What? You saw the timer here?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

You saw we're at thirty six minutes? It's okay to review episode. Go a little longer for these, but yeah, of course, we can. Let's let me ask one more thing and then we'll really get into the meat and potatoes on the other side of this break. General combat.

David Geisler:

This is not a trick How did you feel about it?

Kady Roberts:

I loved it. I really did. So I thought it was simple

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

In a way that I didn't have to think too much but I liked, you you can do like the spin attacks but it was smart because if you do three spin attacks, you're dizzy. You have to wait.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

You can do your classic slash but the one I always ended up using was just when you tap them and he jumps and hits. Yep. Classic, easy, loved it.

David Geisler:

A two year old could do

Kady Roberts:

it. Exactly. Mhmm. I liked it for the spirit bosses when you're finally able to kind of get rid of them, being able to sneak behind them because that was the thing too with the stylus. You can drag it as you normally do in Link's running along but then they introduce water later on Where if you're running through the water, they're gonna hear you and turn you around, so you have to slowly drag just a little bit in front of him to make him walk and then you can grab them.

Kady Roberts:

So there's a lot of smart mechanics that come into play. I also really love the way the different items are utilized and used. I think my favorite in this game was probably the hammer. The hammer?

David Geisler:

Yeah, wow. And you get it late.

Kady Roberts:

You get it this last item you get. Yeah. But I think the way they used it was a way that I haven't seen really used in the other Zelda games.

David Geisler:

That is fair.

Kady Roberts:

Like being able to launch yourself or seeing a button all the way on the other side of the screen that you're able to drag because Ciela's holding the hammer. So she can go over like the gaps and hit things things for you. So I thought that that was really cool.

David Geisler:

That is cool. The the what the reason I asked about how you felt about the combat before we go to break here is that, you know, we were coming from a world with Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, and even Wind Waker where, and I guess actually wait. Yes. And Wind Waker. Twilight Princess came out for GameCube, it hadn't come out yet because it was really it was kind of, you know, touted as the Wii game.

David Geisler:

And combat had gotten to a point in Zelda games where you're holding l to z you're holding z or l to z target, and then you're holding r to hold up your shield, and then you're picking an item, and then you're waiting for a counterattack, and then you you spam your b button to to sword, sword, sword, or you or you push forward in b for a a stab, and back in b for a dodge, and b you know, all these different things. Yeah. Combat was really getting, into a place that was, I think, really probably pretty interesting. But it was, from Nintendo's point of view, and IGNUMA expressed this in an interview, it was also getting to the point where it was kind of crossing a line where newcomers were thinking it was too complicated.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

And the d if if if anything about the DS and the Nintendo Wii, if anything about them, are the pinpoints of Nintendo's history, is that this is the time where Nintendo was recontextualizing what video games were and what they could be. And this is when Nintendo was really, really focused on accessibility and introducing people to video games who wouldn't normally have played video games three or four years before

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Because video games were becoming hold L, then push A and B, then R, and then switched for a back attack. And if you do down in B, then it's a different kind of attack. And it became, you know, for some people that was awesome, but for some people who were just getting introduced to video games, it was a little too much. So IJI Aonuma has expressed that for them, was a real balancing act. They really, really experimented with and talked a lot about how simple should the combat be and how complicated should the combat be.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I think it helped a lot too because, you know, you still have your shield mechanic but the way they do it is, you know, if you're on a platform and these arrows are shooting out at you, you just kinda turn away the arrows and move a little bit forward so it's like he's moving his shield up to knock him out. But then you can also find spirit gems and upgrade the different fairies and then they all give you different powers as well. Yeah. So, know, the red fairy is like a fire sword.

Kady Roberts:

I can't remember what the blue one is, I think it's like an extra shield. But I played a lot with Ciela because Ciela is If you do a slash, then it'll shoot like a wave out in front of you that can hit targets from afar.

David Geisler:

Yeah, absolutely.

Kady Roberts:

So they kind of added some aspects of it where you could kind of complicate it a little bit more if you wanted, and kind of do a little bit more with your attacks, but it's not a necessity, which is cool.

David Geisler:

Well, I think that is entirely by design. I'm so happy you just pointed that out because I think that's a great point to end on here. I think they designed it. They kind of that Nintendo magic of if you are a, let's just jokingly say, a two year old and you see the slime and you tap the slime and Link jumps forward and hits the slime, awesome. You can play the game.

David Geisler:

But if you want to get in there and really get complicated with the things you want to layer on it and play around, you want to do spin attacks and you want to do different things like that, you can have a little bit more combat. And the last thing I'll say there is I really think that the combat with the bosses and how it's expressed with the different views and the different items you use, that's where they like allowed it to get a little more complicated and interesting. So it wasn't about holding two different buttons and pushing a third and then pushing forward on a control stick to do one move, which is where things were. It was more about like, I'm only gonna have to push one or two things, but which things will I do? How will I do it?

David Geisler:

And all of that. So yeah, let's go to break and then we're gonna come back. We're gonna talk about some of our characters and we'll we'll push the dungeons. The dungeons slash bosses. I think I think of of of there are we always love talking about the bosses of the different Zelda games, but this game genuinely shined.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's amazing and impressive, and it justifies the dual screen experience in my opinion. I mean, I'll admit, I'm sure that they set out. They were like, oh gosh.

David Geisler:

What can we do? Know we're gonna break. I oh gosh. What can we do? We got these two screens.

David Geisler:

We gotta we have to validate that these two screens exist. We have to make a game that truly uses these two screens, but I genuinely genuinely believe that in the hypothetical post it note board that they had in their office at Nintendo Mhmm. Every single idea that you could use dual screen for, they thought of it and they implemented it in my opinion quite well.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

Alright. I'll see you on other side of the break.

Kady Roberts:

See you. And we are back. David, we are talking meat and potatoes, as you say,

David Geisler:

of That's that's a throwback from, like, the first season. My original cohost Katie or Kate would always say that. Uh-huh. She was very Milwaukee Midwest, and she would always whenever we got into the the big part of the conversation, she would always say, yes. We're in we're in the meat and potatoes.

David Geisler:

And so I just can't help but reference that a little bit.

Kady Roberts:

So we Oh, my phone. Sorry. Free to throw

David Geisler:

your phone down on the

Kady Roberts:

desk at

David Geisler:

any point.

Kady Roberts:

Phantom Hourglass obviously is coming straight from Wind Waker Link. Spent a lot of time in Wind Waker. Absolutely adore that game and I adore that Link because he's young, he's funny, he's lazy and what you pointed out to me that I didn't notice in Wind Waker but I certainly noticed in Phantom is the big eyes looking where he wants you to interact. Like I said, didn't notice it really in the Wind Waker game because most of the time, you're moving Link and he's kind of behind you.

David Geisler:

That's a good point.

Kady Roberts:

Whereas this game, you see Link from the front or the side more often than not.

David Geisler:

I guess half the time.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So, it was really cool actually getting to see that interaction. And I mentioned it before, but Tetra, I'm glad that she stayed Tetra in this game.

David Geisler:

She she kinda did. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I

David Geisler:

was I don't know. I I have complicated emotions over Zelda slash Tetra in this game, actually.

Kady Roberts:

Please share.

David Geisler:

I feel like, Tetra you and I have spoken about how in our Wind Waker HD episode about how Tetra's so cool. The second half of Wind Waker, she kinda does just become the princess lost. I gotta be honest, even though she is Tetra, she more than ever, I really felt the whole, like, just go save the princess vibes with Absolutely. This Like, she's literally just turned into stone or, you know, taken away. Then then you get her and she's turned into stone.

David Geisler:

You're just trying to rescue the princess I agree. The whole game.

Kady Roberts:

No. I agree. That was one of the one things that I was a little bummed out about this game Yeah. Is that Tetra wasn't really a character. I was glad that she stayed Tetra and that she wasn't turned into Princess Zelda and her personality wasn't changed.

David Geisler:

Oh, that's true.

Kady Roberts:

But, you really only got to see her character and her personality at the beginning and the very end of the game.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Which is a little bit sad but it was typical of that time of the Zelda games.

David Geisler:

I think so, but it felt like a step backwards for me because we had Tetra and Wind Waker. We had other Zeldas that were starting to be a little bit more, frankly, a part of the story. And so that was a little disappointing for me just a touch. Didn't ruin the game, but it was kinda like, oh, Tetra.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. I agree. I will say though, I loved the new characters they threw at us.

David Geisler:

Okay.

Kady Roberts:

For starters, Ciela, the new fairy, the new Na'vi, as you might say. Yeah. I enjoy her personally more than Na'vi because I feel like she has more character and she's not just your navigation system.

David Geisler:

I completely agree. Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

I I think that her and Linebeck's interactions were hilarious because they were constantly going at each other and butting heads. I'm like Linebeck, why are you fighting with this fairy that's literally like maybe a couple centimeters big?

David Geisler:

Well, a way, she's sassy and he's sassy. Oh, it's great. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. I love it. Do you have anything for Ciela?

David Geisler:

Yeah. I do. I do. I have some thoughts. I do have some thoughts.

David Geisler:

I also enjoyed Ciela more, especially this time around, and I especially tuned into it more since you mentioned it in our last episode. And I'm really grateful for that because, really, her her Anne Linebeck's story, they do kinda take their turn in the second half or the the almost the very end of this game, and I was almost I was kind of happy that you re woke you reawakened that observation for me. Mhmm. Because when I did start replaying, it was like, This is the fairy that I just you know, that is my is my stylist and blah blah blah blah blah. But you're absolutely right.

David Geisler:

I think I well, the one thing I did wanna say that I actually put in my notes even though they're off to the side right now, is Navi Ciela is more of a character and more realized.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Also think like Taddle is in Majora's Mask, I think there's a little bit of a progression here with the fairies, but but but we don't talk about that right now. I think that Navi in her utilitarianness kind of becomes there's a there's a there's a little bit of mystery to Navi these days, you know, thirty years after the game came out. Why did she go away at the end? Where did she come from? You know, there's not a lot going on there because I frankly, let's face it, there's not a lot going on there.

David Geisler:

So our head canons can go wild with all of that, and that's a lot of fun. But I don't think that's as strong as writing a character like Mhmm. The fairy here in Phantom Hourglass.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And they they give her a full backstory Mhmm. Too that you like, the whole point of playing through the game is you find out more about her where you first meet her and she's with Oshuu. Later on, you find out that he is the Ocean King and that she is one of the fairies that is around to kind of protect the Triforce and protect him but her memories and her powers have been lost due to the big boss of the game, Bellum. And as you go through the game, she slowly gains more memories and she can remember a little bit more, but she knows she's still missing something and she gains a little bit of powers as you get other fairies until the very end of the game where she can literally stop time for you.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. It's amazing. It's a great lead up. I also think that she's a great balance with Link as well because she's also kind of that kind of rude character in a way where she calls Oshu old man and all that kind of stuff. It's funny though because it's okay, this is kind of like your actual she calls him grandpa a lot too.

Kady Roberts:

This is you.

David Geisler:

Yeah. I took that literal as if he was almost kind of literally her grandpa.

Kady Roberts:

No, think so too. That's what I was going to say is I think that was cool because we got to see, even though we didn't learn too much about Oshu as a person

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

We kind of got to learn a little bit about him through his interactions with Ciela and how Ciela talked about him.

David Geisler:

I would agree.

Kady Roberts:

Being able to say, okay, so he is this caring guy and all this different stuff because of the way he interacts with Ciela and how she talks about him.

David Geisler:

But she finds out she's like the not the fairy of Courage, but is she the sage of Courage?

Kady Roberts:

What what Spirit is there like they of Courage.

David Geisler:

Spirit of Courage. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

No, I I love that. That's also why I wanted to play with her most of the time because I'm like, courage goes to Link. So I think that's also why

David Geisler:

That's cool.

Kady Roberts:

I think she's the last one that you find all the spirit gems for to fully awaken. And then also, in my personal opinion, I think she's the strongest out of all of them.

David Geisler:

The most Like her ability? Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

So, I enjoyed that

David Geisler:

a lot. I never even I I will confess, I never even bothered switching. Yeah. Never did. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

No. I switched through them, a couple different times. A completionist, so I went through and I got all 20 spirit gems for each of the different spirits.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Did all of the side quests. I did not beat the big bomb bag shooting mini game because it's impossible.

David Geisler:

It's pretty embarrassing

Kady Roberts:

It's impossible. But I love the way shooting is done in the game. I love the archery mechanics in the game

David Geisler:

a Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

So I did beat the archery game, like, to get the heart piece, which is very difficult, but it's very fun. So

David Geisler:

What is it about the shooting that you like? Because if you didn't use that r that l button hotkey, I think it's a very different experience.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. I I would, go on the screen and hold and try and, like, move and direct. And then that's where it became interesting and fun with the archery minigame because you're shooting from the bottom screen at stuff at the top screen that's moving and you want to hit in sequence because if you shoot and you miss, then you go all the way back down. But if you hit a girl, then you get minus like 20 points or something and the only way to beat the game is if you don't miss any of them.

Kady Roberts:

You have to hit every single target correctly in a row and that's where it becomes really fun.

David Geisler:

It's cool because it does feel like aiming because you can't that's one of the examples of where you can't just, like, tap the thing for aiming. And, you know, kind of when you use the arrows down on your game when you're playing just the normal game, you kinda can, like, you know, drag your arrow over. So for me, when I would put use the arrows, I would use the hotkey a lot of times. And so you'd select the arrow that goes up in the little circle in the top right or whatever. And you hold the l button, and he goes into shoot mode.

David Geisler:

And then you can kind of tap and drag wherever you want to shoot.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, yeah.

David Geisler:

And the l button kind of metaphorically felt like the pulling back of the string, you know, and then you would touch and release. And so that's what that experience was like for me. But yes, I I I thought that was that was super cool. I also noticed something while we were talking about this. I didn't even ever really consider this, but Link am I going insane?

David Geisler:

Link does not have a fairy in Wind Waker. Right?

Kady Roberts:

No. He doesn't.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Right. Because the the the because Navi in Ocarina of Time was supposed to be obviously the navigation component, but also she would go fly out to the baddies so that you would know, Oh, I'm highlighted on said baddie. In Wind Waker, one of the things that actually was a little jarring for me the first time I played it was that there would just be an arrow pointing over the bad guy. And I was like, oh, oh, we're not doing the fairy thing anymore.

David Geisler:

It's just an arrow now. And then that happens in Twilight. Now, think in like Breath and Tears, it's like a little triangle. They've kinda Mhmm. Worked muted it down a little bit.

David Geisler:

But this is the first time that Toon style Link gets a fairy.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And it's cute. CL is amazing, but the real highlight of this game for me was Linebeck.

David Geisler:

I knew that you were gonna love Linebeck. I knew it.

Kady Roberts:

Love him. I love him so much. I love those kind of Flynn Rider esque characters that they are so sarcastic and they're so full of themselves but also, you can tell they have a little bit of a soft spot here. I think that his introduction to Link was really good and his motivation was very fun because he he doesn't care. Bellwyn can take over the world.

Kady Roberts:

I don't care. Give me treasure. Mhmm. I'm a pirate. I'm a pirate.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. This is

Kady Roberts:

what I do. So, going through that journey with him, especially as he interacts with Ciela, because Ciela's all about the greater good and he's all about self serving himself.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Constantly butting heads there. But I also like that the Ocean King Oshu kind of accepts that and takes advantage of that with Linebeck a little bit.

David Geisler:

I guess you're right.

Kady Roberts:

Towards like the middle ish end of the game, it's revealed that Bellum is the big evil boss here it's like, Link, you have to go save Bellum. Link and Ciela, on board. Gotta save Tetra. Linebeck's like, why would I do this for this kid? I don't even know Tetra.

Kady Roberts:

I'm out. Like, I you're now you're telling me that there's no treasure. Like, why would I do this? And then the ocean king is like, well, once I get my powers back, I can grant you one wish.

David Geisler:

That's right.

Kady Roberts:

And I like because again, the cinematography here is amazing because it's like, slow mo back of like, lineback, and then he turns around and it's this epic music, and he's like, we gotta hurry, Link. We gotta save Tetra and and save the world. And it's like, this crazy music. Yeah. It's so good.

Kady Roberts:

Every single scene with Linebeck is amazing. From him getting splashed and just randomly background rolling across the screen, to in the background him like knocking Tetra over. When, his they kind of, allude to this, his ex girlfriend Joanne, who's a pirate, comes down and you have to fight her. He's hiding in the barrel and or the the box. Yeah.

David Geisler:

Barrel box. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

And the the last time you have to fight Joanne, it becomes clear that she knows that he's in there because she talks to Link and she's like, and you in the box over there? Like like, just whatever. And then she goes up and Link or, Linebug pops up and he's like, what's her problem? So I love him. It's great.

Kady Roberts:

I like that you can upgrade his ship with different parts too.

David Geisler:

The ship part thing is interesting. I'd like to point out too because because part of your experience as a Zelda fan is that you're playing the games, let's just say out of order Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

Not

David Geisler:

on purpose or not by design, but this game came out a good five, six, maybe even seven years before Skyward Sword ever came out. Mhmm. And I think Linebeck is like massive Groot, Groose vibes.

Kady Roberts:

Yes. Exactly. That's why I I really ended up loving Groose in Skyward Sword too. Yeah. I didn't like him at the beginning of the game, but at the end when I finally kind of understood his character, adored him.

David Geisler:

My hot take with Linebeck, I I appreciate Linebeck and I like Linebeck a lot. Think he's the standout character in this game. In fact, I think he probably is the one that has the most growth clearly.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

More than Link and Tetra. Tetra has zero growth, unfortunately, I'm sad to say. Link actually kind of doesn't have any growth either here. Yeah. The kind of standard, like, Link is the the, avatar for the player is very much in play here.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Link, with the exception of a couple like, what? Who asked? His whole growth happened in Wind Waker. You know what I mean?

David Geisler:

Like him becoming a hero. He's kind of a hero now or whatever. Mhmm. He's doing his thing. There's not a lot of growth there, that's okay, but it's what it is.

David Geisler:

Linebeck is the one with the growth. Yeah. Linebeck, the first time I played this, drove me insane. I couldn't stand him. I was like, get out of this story.

David Geisler:

Get out of this game. I don't need you. You're just some kind of weird device so that I can, like, pilot this ship around. I was really negative on Linebeck back when I was, don't know, 24 years old or whatever it was. And, this time around, I I did see it through a different lens, think, and perhaps the lens that you are seeing it through.

David Geisler:

The slapstick, I found charming, but it didn't affect me as much. I just don't think I was in the mood for it. But I did think it was very, you know, charming and then, like, fit into the cartooniness of the game.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

But I did appreciate by the end of the game, Linebeck, you know, when he gets his wish we you see it coming a mile away, but that's okay. Yeah. He doesn't pick treasure. My the part that really got me with Linebeck is when Ciela is basically saying goodbye to him and they kind of, like, insult each other a little bit Yeah. And she flies away, but he turns.

David Geisler:

I don't know. It was, one little shot. It's okay if you don't remember it.

Kady Roberts:

No. I remember.

David Geisler:

Yeah. And the expression on these, like, blocky choppy graphics was perfect. The animation of how he turned, like, for me, that was the moment of his character growth. That was I was like, alright. Everything else was kind of front layer.

David Geisler:

Like, we, you know, we we for me, it was kinda like, you're a really obnoxious narcissistic self indulgent character, selfish character even in the beginning. We know where this is going. We know you're probably going to take a turn. And he did, and that's cool, and I think that's a great story to tell. But where some of that was subverted just a touch and where some of the real emotion hit was like just in these small moments for me.

David Geisler:

Exactly. These subtle little animations. And those those spoke to me a little bit more than like even like all the crazy silliness. However, what were you gonna say?

Kady Roberts:

I was gonna say that's why this game is so good because of all of those cut scenes and stuff. It's not really the main I mean, you obviously are wanting to read and focus on the dialogue. It's a lot of the stuff in the background that you wanna focus on and it's just these subtlety moments, subtle dialogues things, subtle movements in the animations that makes you really understand the full story and the growth and that's where I realized Linebeck fully changed was towards the end when you finally beat everything and Linebeck forgot that the wish was even a thing.

David Geisler:

Yeah. That's a great point.

Kady Roberts:

The Ocean King has to remind him and he's like, oh, right. That's a thing.

David Geisler:

Well, you know what really hits, and this is obviously very end game, but he's when he's kind of like realizing that he was he didn't know that he was possessed by Bellum. This is, of course, end boss stuff, and

Kady Roberts:

maybe we'll

David Geisler:

get there. But what I think where it really, like, his world cracks in a know, in the most beautiful way possible is when he's you can almost see him processing. It's so weird with these chunky little graphics.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

You can almost see him processing that he could have literally hurt Link.

Kady Roberts:

I know. That's the thing. I love how much he grows to care about Link. Yeah. And it feels almost like a big brother or like an uncle situation for me.

David Geisler:

Oh, interesting.

Kady Roberts:

I was devastated at the end of the game when Bellum overtook Linebeck because at this point, I was I've I've watched too much anime. When a character gets a lot of growth real fast, that normally means they're about to die. And so, I When this happened and I had to fight Linebeck, I was like, oh my god, I do not wanna accidentally kill this guy. I really hope that he's okay.

David Geisler:

Oh my goodness.

Kady Roberts:

So, we do the fight and the fight's really fun and it's a really cool mechanic. Uh-huh. Which like, we'll get there but yeah, at the end when he's unpossessed and he's like, did I hurt you? Like, I'm so sorry.

David Geisler:

He's on his hands and knees?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah, he's devastated and then, you know, finally it moves on. I think that's the moment where he's like, I don't even remember this wish because why does the wish matter when I could have hurt this person? And he kind of has this full circle moment.

David Geisler:

I agree.

Kady Roberts:

But his wish at the end, I think is amazing.

David Geisler:

Was just to get his boat back

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

Which is perfect.

Kady Roberts:

He just wants his boat back.

David Geisler:

Because, you know, you could you could read into it a lot, the quick version is, you know, the the thing that he he realizes how much he loved his boat because I I would like to think that what he's really loving is the adventures that are available by having the boat. You know? Exactly. Maybe there's some ownership over the boat the way you might feel love and ownership over a pet or a horse or or even a car or something like that. And I think there's some of that going on, but I my interpretation, my the way I felt it at least, maybe I was reading into it, was after he had had the revelation with Link and decided to you know, the boat had sank and he decided to just wish for the boat back, it was almost him wishing just for those those times together on boat again, you know.

David Geisler:

And even if he knew like, okay, Link might go move on or whatever or and I guess maybe it's Spirit Tracks, Link does. I don't know. We'll find out. But he just he that was the important thing. That was the thing.

David Geisler:

It was it was the thing he loved, not the thing he thought he needed is what he wished for.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly. And that's I I think you nailed it on the head because if Weinbeck didn't care about those things, he could have asked for a bajillion dollars

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Buy this crazy cool new bow and a whole crew

David Geisler:

Oh my gosh.

Kady Roberts:

And go out and but that's not what he wanted.

David Geisler:

You're right. He could have just asked for money for a new boat. But he asked for

Kady Roberts:

his Or an even cooler boat or no. He he asked for his boat and even Ciela called him out of it being like, that's your wish? Like, why would you wish for that? Like, that's stupid. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

But, it wasn't because I just want a boat because we live in the middle of the ocean. It was, this is my boat, I've gone through so many things with it and I've realized I don't need anything else. Mhmm. The boat was there from the beginning, I don't need all these crazy things because I just need I just need to live by my means and I'm happy.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

So, I think that was a great evolution there and then the final cut scene of the game is shocking. It took me a second to process it because Oshu just Everything has happened but he sends them back in time.

David Geisler:

Right.

Kady Roberts:

Where it's ten minutes after Tetra and Link went onto the ghost ship and you sit for a minute and you're like, did this not actually happen? Because there's a great interaction with Tetra and her crew as they're fighting. Mhmm. And she's like, you idiots, obviously I was on this ship and this stuff was happening and they're going back and forth. And Link's listening and then he kinda like looks off and then you see Linebeck on his ship kind of sailing away.

David Geisler:

Very very Link's awakening there Mhmm. Actually in a way where it's like it happened but it didn't happen but it did.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And that's when you're like, okay, so this did happen but Oshu's the god of time and the of the of the ocean so he was able to send us back so we didn't miss

David Geisler:

all these things. Oshu's also the god of whale eyebrows. Those were bangers.

Kady Roberts:

Those were crazy. I

David Geisler:

loved it. Yeah. How do you feel about Oshu probably being one of the, Leviathans, you know, obviously one of the Leviathan skeletons in Breath of the Wild?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I was excited. I was like, I loved Oshu as a character. He wasn't as prevalent but whenever he did show up, it was like, very fun because he was a character that didn't take things too seriously, which I thought was cool to see because normally when you have these like, godly or like, very powerful characters, they're very stoic and they're like, you must go and do this. And he wasn't like that.

Kady Roberts:

He liked going back and forth. Again, I think it plays really well with Ciela's characters, seeing them interact because you realize he is this kind of charming old man that just likes having family, basically. Interacted great with Link and embraced who Linebeck was. He didn't actively even try to change Linebeck. He's like, you're a person.

Kady Roberts:

Alright.

David Geisler:

Actually, you're right.

Kady Roberts:

He didn't he didn't try to change him. He was just like, alright. Well, we need you to finish this, so I'll just give you a wish. And he's like, alright. Cool.

David Geisler:

And that's that's wisdom right there. That's It is.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Because I I feel like he probably had a good feeling about linebacker. He knew something and he's like, you'll learn as you go through this journey, but I'll here you go.

David Geisler:

Oh, there's a lot of layers there. A lot of layers that I wanna talk about, but I don't wanna get into a forty minute conversation. But it's about being a leader or being a parent or being a figure of not needing to tell someone to do something, but allowing them, giving them the tools they need to do their journey, you know, is is very I think that that's kind of where it's coming from a little bit.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And it it works great because with Linebeck and just people like Linebeck who are naturally kind of a little bit full of themselves, For them to have that growth and change, you can't tell them, you need to do this. They're not gonna want to listen to you. Give them a little bit of room for them to look in inside and kind of experiment and grow on their own because that's how it works best, I feel.

David Geisler:

Yeah. You know, the whole the whole Linebeck gets possessed and becomes a baddie, that also happens at the end of Twilight Princess. Mhmm. It's not really a spoiler. Think you kinda know it happens a little bit, and it's a little it's not to say it's a trope might be a little dramatic, but it happens a few times in Zelda games.

David Geisler:

And so when it happened in this game, I remember it happening the first time around, but when it happened this playthrough almost twenty years later, I did kind of at first have the emotion like, oh, we're doing this again. But I'm realizing it's it's one of the earlier times in the series in release order that it did happen. And I don't think it was just and what what I liked about it the most is everything we've just discussed in that I think that that instead of it just being like, oh, no. That character I like just got possessed. I guess I have to fight a different form because Bellum's this weird octopus slappy tentacle thing, and now I got to fight.

David Geisler:

Like, you can you can look at it another way where the game designers are like, well, we got this idea for a slappy tentacle bad guy, and then we got this other idea. This other half of team over here has this idea for a really cool mechanic for fighting a knight character. And they're like, oh, shoot. Well, how do we get the how do we get the the slappies the slappy squid guy into the into the knights costume? Well, I don't know.

David Geisler:

We got another character around? Could we could we possess something? Like, that's sometimes I'm very much joking right now. But like, from a game design point of view, sometimes you design it backwards on purpose. Yeah.

David Geisler:

You go, gotta get here. We like this mechanic. How can we justify it? And for me, it felt that way until they really did pay it off with the story, with Linebeck's reaction.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And I also like it because with Linebeck as a character, it could have been how he could have turned out as well. He could have become this evil baddie and used this wish to gain power and all this, but he goes to that character development and takes a different path, which is really sweet.

David Geisler:

And he did have the brevity to stab Bellum with that sword Yes. In the little tentacle. Even he was like scared of himself when he did it. I loved that moment. Yeah.

David Geisler:

And that's really what set the whole thing off, I think.

Kady Roberts:

Yes.

David Geisler:

Like, he had and really, actually, you know what? That's right. It's not so much that Bellem possessed him. Bellem chose to do that because because Linebeck triggered it by having a moment of brevity Mhmm. And stabbing.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Leinbeck finally like the the the lion from

David Geisler:

Oh, what you talking about?

Kady Roberts:

The lion with courage in, Wizard of Oz. Okay. He finally had his courage moment where Yeah. He broke free and actually put his life on the line and he was doing it for other people.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Not him trying to get things for his own means, not trying to constantly save himself and push a link to do stuff for him. He finally realized that they needed help and he stepped in.

David Geisler:

Yeah. I agree.

Kady Roberts:

So good.

David Geisler:

I imagine we're gonna get into these temples and stuff, but I just wanna ask real quick.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

How'd you feel about Bellum as a baddie in general?

Kady Roberts:

I thought it was interesting. Yeah? I was really pleased that it wasn't another Ganon story. Love Ganon, but

David Geisler:

This is one of the few.

Kady Roberts:

It was cool that it was a whole different character because we dealt with Ganon in Wind Waker. We kind of did his Oh my thing gosh. There. Who else is gonna come if Ganon is gone? And that's where Bellum comes in.

Kady Roberts:

Bellum has this really cool, opposition to Oshu. You find out that this is something that happened a little bit ago. He has this life force draining abilities, but I loved his possession powers where he was able to take over the ship, he was able to take over Linebeck. Yep. He's kind of this like parasite in a way

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

That's constantly trying to like possess different things so you can't really get to him until finally you're able to.

David Geisler:

Great. I love it. That's awesome. I genuinely was wondering what you felt. Mhmm.

David Geisler:

That's cool.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And then also, before we get into the dungeons, I wanted to speak to a little bit of some of the side characters.

David Geisler:

Oh, I'd love to.

Kady Roberts:

When you go and you see, the Red Lion's ship floating around the water, do you What? Have you not gotten have you not done this?

David Geisler:

The red the red The king of the red lions. King of the lions is in this game?

Kady Roberts:

Kind of. Okay. So Maybe it didn't travels traveling ship on one of the quarters and you go to it and it's the king of the red lions ship and you're like, excuse me?

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

You get on it, it's not actually the King of the Red Lion, someone made their ship look like that and it's a guy that's dressed as Link.

David Geisler:

What is

Kady Roberts:

And he's What is happening right Yeah. He he believes that he is the hero that did everything in Wind Waker and you have to like, interact with him and do different things with him and you find out his brother is one of the ones that has a another ship in a different quarter and he brings up his brother who believes he's this hero And, you have to like, you fight with him a couple different times and practice sword stuff to get different things. But this hero, end quotes guy, you go into a ship and he's like, oh, how great it is that you've dressed as me and are an ode to who I am. But you can get, there's like a little fetch quest at one point in the game where you go and do different things and you get these hero clothes. And supposedly, they're clothes that only honest people can see and you can't see them because Link is not an honest person in these games.

David Geisler:

You are blowing my mind right So,

Kady Roberts:

you go and you take them to one person and they can see them and they're like, no, but go to this person, they might need these. Go to them, no. And then finally, it ends up with the guy on the ship that thinks that he's like

David Geisler:

Can see them?

Kady Roberts:

Yes. And you give them to him because I guess he's technically an honest person. He's he's honest in the sense that he thinks he's honest. So you give it to him, but yeah, the whole thing is like you can't see these clothes and it's really confusing. I think it's hilarious.

Kady Roberts:

But yeah, that character is very funny.

David Geisler:

I have never I guess I've only played through the game twice now, the first time when first came out and then for this review, I've poked around and played it here and there. No idea this even existed in

Kady Roberts:

the game. Oh, yeah. Because all the traveling ships look the same on the overview overworld map Yeah. But all the different quarters, they're different ships.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Okay.

Kady Roberts:

Because there's also one of scientists that are, like, studying different things that you can go on to and then you can talk with them. And this is a part of that fetch quest where you, like, go and you go to the girl that's pretending to be a mermaid, Joanne or no, not Joanne.

David Geisler:

Did not experience this.

Kady Roberts:

What? What? Oh my gosh, David.

David Geisler:

I just kind of went dungeon dungeon dungeon.

Kady Roberts:

One of the first islands you can go to, you can go and talk to this guy and he's a fisherman guy.

David Geisler:

Oh, wait. Yeah. He's obsessed with the mermaid. I never found her.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. If you find her

David Geisler:

I even went to the island. So sorry. I went to the island where you kinda cut to the other side and I think you're supposed to see her and I kinda thought they were like doing a callback to Link's Awakening.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No.

David Geisler:

But it just kinda faded away

Kady Roberts:

in She my is on I believe she's like right by the bridge, like right outside his house. You find I think they changed it in this and it's like a mermaid necklace but in the original or no.

David Geisler:

This is the original.

Kady Roberts:

No. This is the original. I think yeah. Wait. Is it this one where?

David Geisler:

There's a lot of mermaids in a lot of Zelda games. Find the mermaid.

Kady Roberts:

I was gonna say one of them oh, I bet it's it was in Link's Awakening where it was originally her brawl that you find.

David Geisler:

Okay. No. No. Yeah. You're you yeah.

David Geisler:

You're absolutely right. There was the it was kind of. Yeah. Yeah. It was like in the original Game Boy game, it was like a top and then they changed it to a scale or a shell.

Kady Roberts:

Yes. But in this one, yeah, you find her, you bring her back into her little pool. You find out later on through letters that you're transferring through the mailboxes that one, she's Joanne's sister, the pirate girl Joanne.

David Geisler:

Well, remember I got that letter, yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm. And two, she's not a real mermaid, she's a girl pretending to be a mermaid. Okay. She likes to pretend but also because she's in love with the fishermen and so she just pretends to

David Geisler:

be a mermaid. He's got the pool ready which was a little creepy actually, but like, yeah. Or or it was him trying to care and serve you.

Kady Roberts:

So it's this fun back and forth where, the mermaid girl is like, is my sister still trying to pretend to be a pirate? And then Duran's like, is my sister still pretending to be a mermaid?

David Geisler:

That's funny.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, so it's this funny back and forth there.

David Geisler:

I remembered the letters, and then somewhere around after the Temple Of Courage, a lot of that stuff just faded away from my game playing.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Anyways But yeah. I like that you're I love actually, I love that you're a completionist because you're able to bring these little tidbits to these conversations. I didn't even know, like, some of this stuff existed.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. There's a lot of cool stuff. I loved talking to all the yuk. Or no, not the yuk.

Kady Roberts:

The the, the yuk are the The snooker. Right? Anoki.

David Geisler:

All the Anoki. Anoki. Yeah. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

I loved their introduction as a race.

David Geisler:

I kind of forgot about them. When I went into that island, was like, wait, who are these people?

Kady Roberts:

I think that it was interesting seeing their hatred of the yuk. Mhmm. They're constantly at odds. You go and you find I loved the little mission where you have to figure out which one of them is not an enuki.

David Geisler:

A classic logic puzzle, little detective work there. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Really fun. A great way to make use of your map by marking off who and what people say. But then when you do that final boss, you find out that the yuk were being controlled. And so you go back through where you fought all these yuk and they're standing there and you can talk to them and they're just like, yeah, we're sorry for all of this and blah blah blah blah, like, we didn't mean to do anything. And then it kind of makes me think too, is I'm like, well, did the Anukis just suddenly start hating the yuk or was this like a culture war that's been going on here for ages and now finally they have a real reason being like, okay, now they're evil evil and they are coming after us.

Kady Roberts:

Our our feelings towards them are justified, Oh, you yeah. So, that's where because the yuk do look very different, they look very scary but they're very soft spoken and very kind people when you them. Yeah. So, it's very interesting there, as well. It's kind of this whole world.

Kady Roberts:

It's interesting.

David Geisler:

Well, for me, it struck me as like it had been cultural for generations.

Kady Roberts:

That's what I was thinking

David Geisler:

too. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

And I think it it was that thing where they're like, we knew it. We knew you guys were evil all along.

David Geisler:

Dang.

Kady Roberts:

And it's like, no. This they literally had no choice in

David Geisler:

this matter. Mhmm. Check your books. Check your history. There you go.

David Geisler:

Yeah. A little bit.

Kady Roberts:

So the dungeons.

David Geisler:

Alright.

Kady Roberts:

Sure. If you're open to moving on to them.

David Geisler:

Mine are kind of like based on the items that you get and then the well, okay. Wait. I have to ask you this. This a question for the ages. It's the big question about this game.

David Geisler:

How did the Temple Of The Ocean King strike you?

Kady Roberts:

Right.

David Geisler:

This is this was this was the I'm so sorry. I'm kind of interrupting. This was the most divisive dungeon maybe in Zelda history, even over water dungeons or water temples. Mhmm. And it was the biggest thing in the reviews that split critics.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. That's completely fair. I completely understand that. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

The first time or two that I did it, loved it.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

Thought it was great.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

Then the next couple times that I did it where you weren't making any actual progress through it, you were just kind of reaching the same point, I kind of was getting bored with it, okay. But then, when you start making progress again, awesome. And then, as me as a completionist, you got these abilities to start getting more of the chests. You have to go through because they give you the option then where you can just jump back to where you were.

David Geisler:

With the little yellow flame thing? Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And you'll have the same time that you had and you can continue. As a completionist, I couldn't do that because, okay, I finally have this item. Oh. Now I have to start at

David Geisler:

top. My grappling hook will go get the thing in level one.

Kady Roberts:

Don't wanna skip it. Or the hammer. I have to start back at the top. Sure. Now I have the arrows.

Kady Roberts:

Have to start back at the top.

David Geisler:

Sure.

Kady Roberts:

So that's where it kind of got a bit sloggy for me. But that being said, they kind of accounted for that and that if you start back at the top, say you get the grappling hook, there's a couple parts now where you can connect it and fling yourself up higher and skip a couple floors.

David Geisler:

Oh, a couple floors?

Kady Roberts:

Or like skip a floor or two.

David Geisler:

Sure.

Kady Roberts:

Same with when you're able to finally Ciel is like fully formed, you can fight back against spirits. You destroy all the spirit, like the knights, now you get a chest. Go down to fight all the knights Yeah. Get a chest. So it was kind of slow moving a little bit, but like I said, beginning I really loved, the middle parts were kinda, then towards the end I really enjoyed it again.

David Geisler:

I think I had similar experiences. The I think it's supposed to be kind like, I feel like the Temple Of The Ocean King on paper Mhmm. Is awesome. It's like exactly what a Zelda thing is supposed to be. Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Where you go in and guess what? You know, the the most fun about a classic dungeon is that you experience half the dungeon and then you get some item halfway through and it recontextualizes the whole dungeon, even the first part that you were already in. And then you go back through the first part of the dungeon and everything means something different because you can blow something up or you can grab a higher item or you have arrows to trigger switches or something like that. And that's when Zelda games are really at their best.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

So like on paper, this this temple, this dungeon is almost like, hey, guess what? What if we do that with every layer, every aspect of this? Is every time you go back into it, it has a new context. And, yeah, the first time you're on Floor 12, or 3, you can see parts where you're like, I probably can bomb that later or these posts are weird. I bet you I can grappling hook.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. Or what is this little strange pattern? Or oh, look. Why is this mound of ground here until you get your shovel? Yeah.

David Geisler:

And all the different things. And it is fun initially, again, for me those first couple times being like, oh, cool. I don't have to do the whole really super tedious thing with the with the phantom walking around, and I can just bomb here and go here and go there. And and so, like, on paper that's perfect, for me, ultimately, it was really uninspired. For me, it was like, well, there's not really, like, there's no magic here.

David Geisler:

There's no magic in exploration, is what I was feeling. I was kinda more like, I think, like, it became it started feeling like homework a little bit, like, well, remember how you could now you can skip you don't have to do this. Well, okay. Wait. Wait.

David Geisler:

Let's let's express it this way. How did you feel about the timer?

Kady Roberts:

The timer was interesting. That's also why I was like, well, even if I wasn't a completionist, I'd want to go back because now I have more time in my timer and I have these abilities to go faster. So, towards the end it was really fun because I'd done it enough times by then that I remembered everything Yeah. And I was able to get down there really quickly. But, especially in that middle part when you haven't been to the Temple Of The Ocean King in a minute and you've kind of forgotten how to do things and then you made it to the bottom and you're like, okay, well now I only have two minutes in my timer but I I completely forgot how to do these things in the first place.

Kady Roberts:

It it that's where it's like, ah. But Yeah. Once you get towards the end and you've done it a couple times and you keep doing it kind of over and over again, that's when you remember everything, you remember how quick you can do things and you can kind of cut corners in a way where you can make it down really quick and it becomes really satisfying.

David Geisler:

I agree. And I think they wanted you to just scribble on your map like crazy. Mhmm. And I found myself doing that, just about everything. Every little pit, every little mark where there would be a a bomb hole or a whatever, I was marking all of that on my map.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. So then when I'd come back, you kinda I even started tracing my routes. Like, my new route, would trace it on the map. Nice. So when I got in, I'd like, yep.

David Geisler:

I know what to do. For a few times about that middle time that middle area for me, maybe it was maybe it was after you get Tetra back. And I had gone down and you're you're getting down to that, you know, where you have to start drawing the phantom hourglass or you draw the triforce or the whatever. Around that area where things start to change, you know, you've got the super powered phantoms and stuff like that. I I I hit a I had an impasse.

David Geisler:

I hit an impasse moment. It was maybe a month ago where I had gotten down there and I just didn't use my time very well.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

And I was at the point where to your point of like, okay, I haven't been here in a minute. I kinda don't remember. I only have two minutes left just like you said. But it wasn't enough to really accomplish to get to the next room or something like that. And I just kept cycle dying.

David Geisler:

I couldn't get past it. And eventually, I had to start the whole thing all over and of go through. That's where the fun was lost for

Kady Roberts:

me. Mhmm.

David Geisler:

But but I do feel like, again, on paper, this is exactly the kind of dungeon that I would love because I I do I do kind of like stealthy sneaky Mhmm. Figure out the puzzle move around elements in Zelda games. I love when you get an item and it recontextualizes an area. I think that's a ton of fun. I don't I don't know if I love the timer thing.

David Geisler:

Actually, I wonder if if there wasn't a timer at all, if I would feel a little bit better about this dungeon. I don't mind waiting for a phantom to walk around. You know what I mean? Mhmm. And every floor, you know, another thing would get a little harder or they would be like, okay.

David Geisler:

Well, you've already been on this floor, but now there's these little highballs that fly around

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

To make it a little bit harder. And I think for me, it just felt like the motivation for some of these things getting more difficult or getting easier didn't have that magic that was in, like, a a traditional Zelda dungeon for me. Maybe I'm trying to I'm coming up with this as I speak about it, but, like, let's just say, like, a water dungeon might be tedious and you're you're finding things, you're figuring things out, maybe you're cycling through it a few times, but when you finally realize like, oh, the water goes up and down and isn't that beautiful? The water changes and wait, so how does water work and how does that change how I go through that hallway? How does it change this entire space and what does it mean for this space?

David Geisler:

That's so sorry, magical in a play experience. This one felt to say that it felt like homework or a worksheet, it didn't have that magic for me and that I wasn't it was kinda like x to y to, you know, x to y to to z, switch out the variables. Now you can you can now it's now it's just go through this wall instead of that wall. And so there wasn't kind of that, like, awe for me as I was I don't know. This I'm kind of I'm kind of rambling and stumbling here.

David Geisler:

Am I making any sense?

Kady Roberts:

You are making sense. I think it's interesting though because I have a kind of a different take. Please. Because I actually feel like I felt the water dungeons in a lot of Zelda games were more tedious than the Ocean Temple for me because in say some of those classic Zelda dungeons, everything is constantly new and you have to go back and kind of switch things and remember, okay, where was this? Whereas the Ocean King Temple, to what you were saying, a lot of it was the same but that allowed, at least for me, from a completionist and almost like a speed running point of view, I remember this so I know I can when the knight turns this way, can quickly run and grab this thing and then I can run and go through the whole floor in like five seconds and then I can grab this and I can do that.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, no, I have the grappling hook so I can go over here and so I I did enjoy it from that aspect because I could remember I didn't really write on my map at all in this temple.

David Geisler:

Did you use a walkthrough? It's okay if you did.

Kady Roberts:

I did. I did do Yeah. A walkthrough the first time I went through any of the floors.

David Geisler:

I did not use a walkthrough for this game ever.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So that Which

David Geisler:

is probably why I missed a lot of this cool content Really? Honestly.

Kady Roberts:

Zelda dungeon, love you. Yeah. But to that end, that might be why I enjoyed it more, because I didn't have that tedious trying to figure things out as much. If I ever got stuck, I just looked it up. But for the most part, I didn't use it too much on the initial floors until I started getting items and I needed to know if I there was anything I missed on the floors that I needed to grab.

Kady Roberts:

But that was where it became fun for me was when I started learning how to kind of bob and weave and dodge and kind of go quickly through these floors because I kind of learned the patterns.

David Geisler:

Yeah. I think we're I think we're circling in on something really interesting here that I didn't plan to talk about at all. And this is something I really appreciate about both of us hosting this show because I think there's certain things we really love that are the same about Zelda games. I think there's some things different aspects of games that we love in different ways. I think I wonder if when this dungeon was being designed, it kind of satisfies that speedrunny feel.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Like, oh, I can really get I can really lock

Kady Roberts:

in Yeah. They have the timer

David Geisler:

this and this and this. And when I when I I enjoy a Zelda dungeon any Zelda dungeon the most is when it's not even about how I can do something. It's a lot of like the why. And and you're you're a big lore person too. I know you are.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. But a lot of times for me, it's more like I don't really need to know that I can hit five switches in five seconds. I kinda wanna know why those switches are there and and and why I'm doing these things and what's my emotions as I'm hitting these switches. Is it changing the culture of the blah blah blah or

Kady Roberts:

who knows?

David Geisler:

You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's the stuff where I get really excited. I have zero emotions. I get no excitement.

David Geisler:

Well, it's a little dramatic

Kady Roberts:

No.

David Geisler:

Yeah. About, like, just trying to execute the the track, I guess. Yeah. And that's okay. That's okay.

David Geisler:

And I actually really do completely appreciate

Kady Roberts:

Play styles.

David Geisler:

Play styles. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm I'm so happy about that because it kinda allows us to to convert to talk about this. And I wonder if in some ways you know, because I guess kind of if we look at it through that whole like Groundhog's Day cycle through it many times so you can get really perfect at it vibe, that's kind of the first time that a a a temple or a dungeon like that ever existed in a Zelda game.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. So for that, it really needs to be given some credit. And I wonder if the designers kind of had those similar instincts or or or, you know, I don't know, emotions or things that that you're like pinging to as well. Mhmm. See where I'm going with this a little bit?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I think that's where some of the fun came in too was when you get to those lower levels and there's like the little phantoms that go in between walls and you can hit them and get more time in your time in your hourglass with them and you can find little, you go through it enough times, you remember, okay, I can jump over here to skip this section and then grab this, pot that has more time in it and then I can go down here and hit the phantom and grab another thirty seconds and then I can come over here. So, learning those paths and keeping an eye on your time and how can I get more time and meet get this at the bottom as quick as possible?

Kady Roberts:

And that being said, I really liked that final moment when you reach the final level before going to Bellum and the knights appear in the triforce symbol, you have to beat the first three, the second three, then the final three, and then you get a chest from it. And then if you do it a second time, you get two chests from it and you get legendary ship parts.

David Geisler:

Okay.

Kady Roberts:

So a little fun fact there, but I enjoyed that.

David Geisler:

That's cool. And I think to then its credit to that's probably what the game was trying to probably, I I actually am realizing now even though like critics were divided when this game came out, and I was one who was I love to love things, but this one this dungeon didn't work for me. Mhmm. In fact And that's okay. Like it almost breaks my experience of the game when I had to thought to myself, like, oh god, I gotta go back there and do all this horrible all these horrible things.

David Geisler:

Yeah. And for no reason, you know, okay. The the the phantoms have showed up, but like, why are the phantoms there? A lot of that kind of stuff. But it's okay.

David Geisler:

I'm actually realizing, I'm actually admiring now that I think that dungeon is supposed to be that kind of dungeon. Yeah. The dungeon you're speaking about.

Kady Roberts:

No. It is supposed to be that way but also, it's okay if something's not your cup of tea, you know. Mhmm. I feel like that's what's great about Zelda games in general is they try and do something different with a lot of their different games and sometimes it's different in a way that it doesn't strike with you and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

Kady Roberts:

I'm saying literally the conversation we're having right now, you didn't really like this one part of the game but that's okay, didn't fully ruin your experience. I adored this part of the game. Yeah. That's completely fine. Just two different playthroughs.

David Geisler:

No. It's super cool.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

It's super cool. That's awesome. So okay. Cool. I wasn't sure which way that one was gonna go for you guys.

David Geisler:

As I was playing it, for me it's a bit of a okay. Now I'm getting dramatic. A bit of a dreck. But That's okay. But but I was as I was playing, was wondering, is this gonna turn Katie off?

David Geisler:

Is this is she gonna say, why am I back here again? But but I'm so happy to hear that you had this other experience with it and that's super cool and it also helps me admire it even more.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. It was great. So talking a little bit about some of the bosses.

David Geisler:

Let's do it.

Kady Roberts:

Oh my gosh. This game did such a good job utilizing the double screen. I was shocked. Yes. I've never played a game like this before that did such a good job using both screens.

David Geisler:

Revolutionary.

Kady Roberts:

Literally. Yep. And you can tell that from the immediately with the first boss, it was, Blaz, the three different ghosts.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

And this was the start of the game before you really realized that you should be paying attention to the top of the screen. So, you're running around and you have your boomerang and you're hitting the ghosts and you're like, why is nothing happening?

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

Until you look up and you see each of them has a different horn number. So, one of them that's floating around has one horn, another has two, another has three. And you realize that you can trace your boomerang in different shapes to hit them individually at different times until you hit them in the order that it wants you to. They become the big one, you fight it, they go back into the three and you keep having to repeat this process.

David Geisler:

If I remember correctly, when they're the three, you still kind of have the map view up above. You do. Right? So it's just like there's like icons floating Well,

Kady Roberts:

that's the thing. So when you're fighting them on the main screen, they don't have any horns.

David Geisler:

Right. Right.

Kady Roberts:

You're just they all look the same. You're like, why is this not working? It's not until you look up that you see on the map, it's telling you what order to hit them in. And that's when I realized I'm gonna have to pay attention to this and the boss fights in this game, the upper screen, and I thought that was so cool.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. They really went for they went for verticality where you couldn't normally in a game with some of these boss fights.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. I loved my one of the standout ones for me I mean, we can just go let's just go through the order, actually.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. Can keep going. Cyclocke I feel like Cyclocke was one of the ones that wasn't as innovative to me but I thought it was still fun because they made use of that verticality like you were saying.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

This the giant octopus that was flying in the air would cause different wind to blow. He would use his shovel to dig up and then throw the bombs in and it would fly up to the top of the screen to hit Cycloc. So you had to pay attention on the top of the screen where Cycloc was going so you could follow it and throw your bombs up.

David Geisler:

Well, thought it was great too. Thought that one was a standout one for me a little bit in that, it was a cool metaphor too or an analogy. I don't know. Because you can't touch the top screen in in real life. Cannot And so then what happens is you're running around on the bottom screen.

David Geisler:

Yes, can see the top and bottom. Yes, they're technically kind of a view of the same but in real life, you've got this massive, let's just say octopus floating over you, throwing bombs on your door with things like Link would think, I can't get up there. Yeah. What can I do? I can't get up there.

David Geisler:

And we as players in real life are like, we can't get up there. We can't even touch that screen. So you have to, a little bit like the Arrow game a little, you have to figure out how do I get things up there when I can't get up there, and I'm saying it that way on purpose. That was super cool. Also, I feel like each boss was really expertly crafted as far as increasing what it was asking of you for this dual screen experience.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. Actually, I agree. I I didn't even think about that from the perspective of I can't touch that, so how do I do that? I I love that.

Kady Roberts:

I love that take. And I think you're exactly right that they slowly start adding more and more and more and more as you go on.

David Geisler:

If memory serves, the third one is the one that's invisible sometimes. Is that right?

Kady Roberts:

Yes. This is my favorite boss.

David Geisler:

This thing kicks. I have included this boss in like top 10 boss fights blah blah blah in other episodes because this is so so inventive what they do. I'll let you set it up, I'm sorry.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So the boss is Craik, I think it's how you pronounce it, k or c r a y k, and it's a crab. Yep. Easy enough. Alright, cool.

Kady Roberts:

There's all their little crabs in the area. They don't really mess with you unless you get really close to them or you mess with them But the whole thing is, you get into this fight and then you're looking around, where is this thing? You look up at the top screen, why am I seeing myself?

David Geisler:

Yes, exactly. It's awesome.

Kady Roberts:

You're seeing yourself and then why is the camera getting closer? Ow, what just happened?

David Geisler:

Someone bumps into you.

Kady Roberts:

You realize you're seeing through Craig's eyes because you can't see Craig but Craig can see you.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

And this is where you have the arrows. So, I was blown away at this where you run around and you have to pull your arrow and you're moving around and you're moving around, you're watching that top screen. You're not even paying attention to the bottom screen mostly. Correct. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

And, you're just watching until you see yourself looking dead at the camera and you fire.

David Geisler:

Yep.

Kady Roberts:

Oh my gosh.

David Geisler:

So cool. Right?

Kady Roberts:

It's so cool.

David Geisler:

So cool. Eventually then it becomes visible again like then you attack, know, it's Mhmm. It's eye or it's butt or it's something.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. You you keep you keep on trying to shoot and stun him until finally you shatter the shell and then that mechanic's kinda over and then, you know, you just kind of run around and try and hit it with the shell. But I think that's one of the coolest, if not the coolest, bosses I've ever played in the game.

David Geisler:

In a Zelda game or maybe even any game because because it does it it perfectly reveals the clues you need to figure out what's going on Mhmm. Inside the action. Like, you might get hit once or twice, but it it even has, running action lines on the top screen when it starts to charge you and So stuff like action packed, so cool. You're absolutely right with it that that idea of, like, you're actually looking at yourself through the eyes of another thing and you're trying to line the arrow up to fire it and you only have a few few seconds. The if you didn't have dual screens I mean, like, how else do you show invisibility?

David Geisler:

This is just the coolest like, that that think tank when they were putting together these boss ideas and they were like, well, what about an invisible boss? But you can't see it, you can see what it sees and you have to deduce where it is. Mind blown.

Kady Roberts:

It's insane. Yeah. Because you're completely right. If you don't have this dual screen mechanic and you're trying to make an invisible character, it's impossible to make it fully invisible. You can make it Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

So like it's a little bit blurry in that spot. Okay.

David Geisler:

Where it is. Dust on the ground or something.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. But something that's truly invisible, you can move around this space, nothing is there, you can't run into anything until it starts coming at you and you can see it through your eye or through its eyes. It's very cool.

David Geisler:

The only part where this this is like 2% of an error.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Is that there's no in game logic as to why or how we could see

Kady Roberts:

Yes.

David Geisler:

That creature's POV. Whereas like later in the game, when Navi flies around behind Bellum, Navi's like, here, I'll tell you when I'm sorry. Say what? Flies behind Bellum to tell you when the eye is open. There's kind of a there's a there's a a con not a context, but a justification or something.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. This one, it's like there's no in not maybe it'd be heavy handed if they really needed it. Like, oh, you've got the special magical pad that lets you see the weird Yeah. We've we've we've tapped into the thing's brain. Like, we don't need that.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. We just keep moving, but that's the only light inconsistency. No.

Kady Roberts:

That's completely fair.

David Geisler:

But but who cares? It's so cool.

Kady Roberts:

It's so cool. And then after that is actually my second favorite boss of this game and that's the Cubist sisters on the ghost ship.

David Geisler:

Okay. Sure. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So the ghost ship, I feel like is probably my favorite dungeon in general. I thought it was really fun.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Kady Roberts:

It's the one I remember the most. So going through that, you know, linebacker's like, alright, have fun. See you later. Yeah. You go through, you run into one of the first girls and she's like, my sisters are trapped in all these different floors I need you to help them.

Kady Roberts:

You find out that they're afraid of spiders, you have to try and make sure you get the spiders gone along the way because they do respawn. Mhmm. And also kind of sneaking them around the different spirits and then you can still get trapped or caught by the spirits and then if she screams and she gets caught by like the spiders and you have to run and she's not following you so you have

David Geisler:

to go back scribble in.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly. So, it's constantly like this back and forth but you go down, you find one sister, you find the next sister. Finally, you get all four of them together, you reunite them, it's a sweet moment. You're like, oh, I did it. I reunited the family and what else am I supposed to do here?

Kady Roberts:

And then they start talking and they're like, thanks for getting us back together, Link, so we can end you. And then they turn into like these very evil, demonic, ghostly creatures.

David Geisler:

And for the sake of the graphics, pretty scary looking.

Kady Roberts:

They were terrifying. Yeah. And I loved that because I did not expect it at all, personally.

David Geisler:

Oh, really?

Kady Roberts:

I had no clue what was going on. So when they had this moment, I'm like, I just helped you. So you go and you do this final boss where they just bring in the classic orb

David Geisler:

Yes.

Kady Roberts:

Fight back and forth.

David Geisler:

Yes. Yeah. It is the volleyball thing and this is such a fun way of doing it. But I have to ask real quick. There's two things that that Yeah.

David Geisler:

That I've been been been itching to say. I guess I'll do it as a question first. It's a little hot takey. But was there ever any point while you were playing that dungeon where they felt suspicious to you?

Kady Roberts:

The only time that could have been is when you get one of the sisters and she tells you about the chests. There's two chests and she's like, one of them has like a really good thing in it. It's I don't remember the the actual direction. She's like, pick the left one, it's good. And if you go and you pick the left one, you like lose Yeah.

David Geisler:

She be advised.

Kady Roberts:

But when I played it, I just thought that she was kinda stupid.

David Geisler:

Okay.

Kady Roberts:

She just didn't realize and was like, oh you. And then we go back up. So, I really was completely blind in this.

David Geisler:

For me, from sister number one, I was like, no. No. No. No. No.

David Geisler:

No. No. This is not good. This feels wrong. It was something about how they spoke or something, but also I might have been, here's my second point, queued up to it a little bit because this whole it's four sisters, but this whole thing kind of homages a dungeon from A Link to the Past Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Where there's like you're saving someone and they're a little you know, you're not sure if you're saving the right thing or not or whatever. I don't wanna give too much away. But, that was that. And then but but but then to get back onto this volleyball point or this tennis thing that we talk about Mhmm. Such a fun way to take that classic move Yeah.

David Geisler:

That classic way of fighting and kind of bring it into the into the into the two screens but also having to be four players and

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. I it does another great job. This game does amazing with the boss fights in scale and also in height because you're able to see towards the end of the ship on the top screen and then them hovering up above. So, you can tell, okay, they're really high up in the air, there's four of them moving around, I have to keep moving and keep an eye on, okay, which one is going be shooting a laser, which one's shooting the ball.

Kady Roberts:

Okay, I got the ball, we go faster and faster we hit it around. I have to keep an eye because they're passing it between sisters to try and trick me and then, you know, you get the first one going, you get the second one gone, now it's getting even trickier. They're shooting out extra orbs where you can hit it but then they splinter into other orbs that can hurt you and you gotta try and dodge those as you keep running. Oh, missed it. Now, they're gonna try and fire really quickly at me.

Kady Roberts:

It's really fun and it just keeps going faster and faster but I've always been a fan of that volleyball mechanic and I think it's also a good ode. I know that he did it before Wind Waker but it's a good ode to Wind Waker with that Ganon fight constantly doing the volleyball, bringing it into this next game.

David Geisler:

Of course, Wind Waker was was doing an ode to Ocarina of Time.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly.

David Geisler:

And Ocarina of Time was doing it from A Link to the Past

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Which is where I think it got started, I think. Yeah. Love it. Love it. That was great.

David Geisler:

I do I do I did my heart was definitely pumping during that fight with the four for sure.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It was frustrating at times, but in a good way, where I was like, I missed it. Okay.

Kady Roberts:

Do do it again. Do it again. Do it again.

David Geisler:

Yeah. It is a little more action than it is puzzle, but it is puzzle in the action. You're absolutely right. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

No. I I loved it. It felt challenging to me in a way that I thought was enjoyable.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

It wasn't crazy, but it was like, alright, let's keep going. Let's do it again.

David Geisler:

Who is the next one the two dragons? I'm

Kady Roberts:

Dongorongo.

David Geisler:

Oh, it's this one. This one I struggled with for

Kady Roberts:

a while.

David Geisler:

I I did do this one a few times.

Kady Roberts:

I'm grateful when I did this one that I'm a completionist and I had so many hearts because I didn't have to do it over again. I just accepted accepted defeat defeat and and just just let myself keep getting hit and just worried about actually doing stuff. Yeah. And I didn't end up dying because I was like, I got like 15 hearts at this point, whatever. Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

But yeah.

David Geisler:

They I feel like I saw what they were going for. It was another one of these like, what can we do with two screens and maybe you control two characters. The thing is is like you can only really control the character that's on the bottom screen, so you're swapping screens and that's where the mechanic breaks down just a little bit.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

But, I don't know. It was cool. So yeah. Yeah. There's the Goron, the the little Goron.

Kady Roberts:

You The Goron is his name.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. Which we never actually mentioned some of these Gorons in our Goron episode from, like, five, six, seven years ago. We might have to do a like, an additional someday, especially now that Echoes of Wisdom is out and a few others. But, I don't know.

David Geisler:

What what what Going into it and also this one had a couple phases.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. This one I think had two or three phases. And my initial reaction was I was excited to switch between Gongoran because of the Wind Waker dynamics where you're able to use the spell to control your partners.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

I'm like, oh, this is kind of similar to that. That'll be cool. Where it became difficult was that constant screen switching and for me, I didn't use the hot keys to switch either. So, I was constantly having to move, click, move, click, move, click and you see, I'm Gongoron, I'm trying to hit this boss but these things are coming at Link but the the big Gongorongo or whatever is coming at me Mhmm. So what am I supposed to do here?

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

You're supposed to jump attack with the Gongor and stun him and then you switch to Link and he uses his bomb shoot and traces it to attack. Yep. But there's so much going on and all you can really use is your stylus where things get kind of difficult with the timing and complicated because you have to use your stylus to switch, use your stylus for Link to dodge the things, use your stylus for Gongoran to attack the Durango, and then also use your stylus while everything's happening to trace a path for the bomchu. Yes. So it becomes really complicated really quickly.

David Geisler:

I do feel like this is the one that kind of I saw they were going for and this is the one that for me kind of just scraped over that line of being a little cumbersome with all the clicking and tapping. And also like switching the screens, I don't know if there was some way they could have had it a little bit something, little bit more, let's just say clever kind of like our third boss where you're seeing from a point of view or something like that, but to just flat out switch. And and and I think the thing that I was really getting caught with the most is having the little guys attack Link. Yes. I'm like, I'm in the middle of trying to throw this guy.

David Geisler:

Also, was kind of fun because they were also referencing Dodongos liking to eat barbs and stuff like that Yeah. And you get into their mouths and then I think this thing actually you attack it from the back. There's all these different like Yeah. Fun tropes that they were playing with.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

But for me, the pieces just didn't quite come together.

Kady Roberts:

It was very clever. I think that the boss would be perfect if they just got rid of the things trying to attack Link. Yeah. Just got rid the things trying to attack Link. Okay.

Kady Roberts:

Fine. That's I don't gotta worry about Link as so so much as I'm learn so long I'm worrying about Gong Goron trying to do all the different things and then throwing the bomb too with Link, that's perfect.

David Geisler:

Or even if you wanted to like put some pressure on having to switch back to Link Mhmm. Maybe it's just like Link is like slowly sinking in some sand and there's a little meter instead of just like always kinda guessing until it goes or whatever like, you know, instead of being like, uh-oh, are there bad guys around me or where'd they come from? You

Kady Roberts:

know And what I if they Even if they just threw like one out occasionally, but instead they constantly had like three different ones always coming after you. They didn't have a chance to really not lose lives,

David Geisler:

I guess. I found I found myself in the in this this battle, instead of being able to execute on the strategy, a lot of times just swapping back and forth just to keep the two like alive.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly.

David Geisler:

I actually think that I usually perished by having the Goron get hit. He'd go out. I wouldn't control him correctly and then, you know, of course, Link, you then you have start the battle over. I think I think I had him be defeated, you know, almost like two, three times. I I played this one five or six times and I probably didn't have a ton of hearts.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. That being said, once it reaches the second round and Gongora is kind of out of the picture, it becomes a really fun fight and it's relatively Honestly,

David Geisler:

was kind of like, thank God.

Kady Roberts:

No, I was too. No, absolutely. It switches to being like, okay, now we're just fighting a Durango. Perfect.

David Geisler:

I know. I know. And is that such a weird emotion? We should be having the opposite of like, this is so genius and brilliant, but it is what it is.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So that boss is a little bit difficult, but that being said, I'm sure there's people out there that are like, this is revolutionary. This is amazing. More power to you, you have more strength and ability playing games than I do. This was just very difficult for me.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. I think the next one is the two dragons and I loved it. I loved it.

Kady Roberts:

Yes. The Gliak was very very intriguing. So there's the dragon, we all know the Gliaks, they even show up now in Tears of the Kingdom. That's where I first experienced them. Played this game, I was like, oh my god, there's the dragon thing.

Kady Roberts:

Double headed, both of them, one has fire, one has ice. It almost feels like a call to, maybe they came before this, but Ocarina of Time with Twinrova

David Geisler:

Twinrova, yeah.

Kady Roberts:

With the fire and the ice. And so if you play Ocarina, you kinda already know what to do here.

David Geisler:

I think this is the first time the Gliak was expressed to be elemental. Okay. To be elemental. Yeah. Like, Gliak was before in some other games, but it was just like a big green dragon or whatever.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Know?

Kady Roberts:

So, you get the grappling hook, you know that you fire at night, obviously you're gonna have to hit fire at one and ice at the other. Here's where I was a little stupid. Okay. When you go into this fight, you're on a platform and there's each corner of the thing a place you can attach your grappling hook.

David Geisler:

Yeah, there's like two pegs, yeah. Yeah. A peg on each side, yeah.

Kady Roberts:

You're supposed to, when the fire one shoots, say the fire one's on the right, you need to get it to the left, attach the top right corner to the left right corner or to the left bottom corner so it creates that slant to hit at the

David Geisler:

Yeah, like a little slingshot. They I did teach you that in the dungeon, like, they could create the slingshots, yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Well, I didn't process, like you said, in the dungeon. You originally create them to just go straight across to fling yourself up on things, so I just was thinking, okay, I have to bait the breath to a certain side of it to bounce it, and I'm like, why is this inconsistent? It worked a couple times, but I'm like, why is this so inconsistent? Until finally, I'm like, I can just do diagonals, and the fight instantly got way easier.

David Geisler:

And maybe that's the moment. I mean, because they definitely don't teach you the diagonals in the dungeon Yeah. And maybe that is the point you're supposed that is the one extra thing that gets added to the I boss will admit that I didn't immediately go to the diagonals myself. I think I was even trying to walk on the rope and I thought, oh, I need to get higher to hit these things back and stuff like that? Yeah.

David Geisler:

But yeah, super fun with the kind of shooting the elements back at the other dragons. But where I really had fun with was kinda like yanking yanking their heads in with a hook shot. Don't know why that was so satisfying.

Kady Roberts:

No. Absolutely. Finally hitting them and then yanking them in and hitting them and then it'll go to the spot where, the water rises up and it'll be ice coming down and you have to dodge the ice as you run around and then you go back to the initial fight.

David Geisler:

And you already And you know you can jump up on the pegs? Exactly. So when the wave comes, you jump on the pegs. Oh, so cool.

Kady Roberts:

So fun. Yeah. No, it's it's great. The timing can be a little bit tricky because you don't know which head's going at which time and then you have to react quickly but it adds a little bit of difficulty to the fight that would otherwise be kind of intuitive, which I enjoyed.

David Geisler:

Yeah. I also I think the way they kind of use the dual screen here is basically, maybe it's a little less mind blowing as like an invisible character, but I think the heads are always on the top screen and you're kind of pulling them down into your screen. Right?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. You have to use the grappling hook to shoot up and pull them down.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Kady Roberts:

After the Gleeok is one of the coolest ones and that's Eox.

David Geisler:

Is that the big robot?

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

The big stone monster.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

That is where they really use skill to their advantage

David Geisler:

Let's do it.

Kady Roberts:

With the second screen. Because you just This thing comes up and you're Link on the bottom screen and even then, Link is tiny

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

And he's leaning back and with the scale, it goes all the way up to the top screen. Even like touching the top screen of this huge creature. Yeah. Thankfully, if you've played Zelda games, you know that you got the hammer in this dungeon and he's got a lot of red buttons on him.

David Geisler:

Yeah. I'm surprised they weren't eyeballs, but anyway.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Exactly. So, finally get to use the hammer. You got to do what I loved, which was flinging yourself up with the hammer on different things around. And while you're in the air is when you finally reach he goes to the bottom screen because you're flying above him and you're able to quickly kind of, with Ciela, move the hammer around hitting as many as you can.

Kady Roberts:

You fall down, he throws stuff at you, you gotta hit those, run back to the other side of him before he like turns around so you can get his backside and you keep doing this until he starts falling apart falling apart until finally you defeat him. I think it's such a cool boss design and a really fun way to do a boss like this.

David Geisler:

Yeah. I liked it too. Then, you know, it was super obvious with the little footprints on the pads, but I think it needed to be. Yes. And then you realize you can slam that with your hammer and then use the inverse energy to shoot yourself up.

David Geisler:

That was kind of a fun realization. Kind of when you're up there, there was a little part I love this fight as well. Oh, yeah. That my one critique was that it was kinda like I was just clicking real hard on the red buttons with my stylus. Yeah.

David Geisler:

But because I think really that is like Ciela is where she's like taking the hammer and floating it over. Yeah. So there's less you kinda just fly up into the air and then tap on the red as much as you can. But it was very epic. It was really cool.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I think that's, where this game used cinematography to its advantage in a boss fight because the boss itself is very easy. It's very obvious what you're supposed to do and it's nothing crazy, but in the way that it's kind of, for the sake of this, I'm gonna say filmed Yeah. And the way the boss is designed, it makes it feel very epic even though it's not that crazy of a fight. I think I enjoyed that.

David Geisler:

I appreciate that. I think there's a there's a there's a fight. One of my favorite boss fights of all time is in Twilight Princess, and I think it has some similar things. When we play that game, maybe we'll be able to return to this moment where where at the end of the day, maybe what's exactly happening isn't that hard, but it's so freaking epic. Exactly.

David Geisler:

That's a ton of fun.

Kady Roberts:

And Eox is the last boss you fight before you reach Bellum, finally.

David Geisler:

Yes. Now I I wanna point one thing out. I don't we've already been talking for almost an hour and a half. We're, like, way deep into this episode, and I love it. We have completely, jumped over every single dungeon, but I think that's not exactly by accident.

Kady Roberts:

I

David Geisler:

don't think you and I really thought about this. But as we were talking about these bosses, I realized that I think another critique that I have of the dungeons in this game is that the graphic style, this kind of like looking straight down onto a you you never really see a ceiling. You never really see a wall you know, really a wall. You're kinda looking into like a a mouse maze a lot of times is what it feels like. I felt like none of the dungeons I found myself oftentimes not you know, kinda getting confused as to which dungeon was like, when I was remembering, they all kind of looked very, very similar.

David Geisler:

Obviously, there's different colors and there's ice and there's Mhmm. Things and you learn new mechanics. But at the end of the day, the graphic style for me wasn't different enough to really have the dungeon stand out that much other than kind of learning a slight new puzzle or two with the new item you got.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. That's also why I said the ghost ship is my favorite because it's only when I remember. So I'm like, okay. Clearly, was my favorite then because I only remember the ghost ship. But I think that also is the reason because I feel like a lot of them were very short as well.

Kady Roberts:

There weren't any really crazy long dungeons. It was mainly just here's the item, here's how you use it, go fight the boss.

David Geisler:

That's actually a really good point. I don't know if any of them and I did not use walkthroughs. Don't know if I ever played any one for like even an hour.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. They were all very very short for the most part. Even with the completionist stuff running around, I think I'd beat all of them within like maybe thirty minutes.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

And I don't think they really had any mini bosses within the dungeons. It was just straight to the big boss.

David Geisler:

And I think we should point out that these dungeons and this design and this aesthetic was a little bit of an experiment for Nintendo. This is really the first time that we had a three d engine rendering, homaging a two d play style.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

So all of the all of the two all of the two d games, let's say, the top down games before this, Minish Cap, Link to the Past, one of all the others, they really were just sprites. They really were truly two dimensional engines, game engines. Mhmm. This one was a three d game engine. It had polygons and all the things.

David Geisler:

That's how they got all the cool shots. And I think this was their first try, their first crack at how do you take like a a two and a half d game, a three d looking game, and make it feel like a two d game. And then that would be later on more realized, perhaps even better realized in A Link Between Worlds for the 3DS. Mhmm. And then, of course, later on, the Link's Awakening remake and stuff like that.

David Geisler:

And what we have now in Echoes of Wisdom, this is a there's an evolution of that style. Mhmm. And so if in some ways, this aesthetic and this style and even these mechanics of these dungeons felt a little basic or a little egg carton or a little copycat, and they didn't necessarily stand out that much, I I don't think that that's horrible. But I Oh, did feel that way a little bit.

Kady Roberts:

No. Absolutely. I I don't have much to say in the dungeons because I don't really remember them. They're all very short but that being said, this entire game was a little bit short. I would say, as a game, if you play it normally and you just kind of play your way through it, maybe fifteen, twenty hours.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. But that's not a bad thing. It didn't overstay its welcome.

David Geisler:

I wonder if they had the dungeons be a little shorter by design because, of course, this is also in a time in video game history where designers were learning how long and short should something be for a handheld system.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly.

David Geisler:

When when kids are cracking open the the clamshell and playing for five minutes and slamming it back shut, how long should a dungeon be?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I don't I don't think that it hindered the game at all because it just let you get kind of straight to the action and keep going and it didn't make me want for more. This game didn't make me want for more and it didn't make me feel like it was too long. I felt like a nice little sweet spot for just a short to the point Zelda game and I enjoyed that.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Cool. Awesome. I just wanted to address the dungeon thing because I was realizing it as we were talking about these bosses that really it was the bosses that shined Exactly. And the dungeons were serviceable, I'd say.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No, I agree. So the the final boss is Bellum. Crazy jellyfish tentacle boss. You have to defeat him to let Oshu become the ocean king again and get Tetra's life force back.

Kady Roberts:

There's this whole thing where you you do the first fight. This thing has like three different

David Geisler:

Kind of phases.

Kady Roberts:

Phases in a way.

David Geisler:

Almost literal layers and levels. Yeah. You're talking about the spiral staircase part, right?

Kady Roberts:

Well, just in just in general.

David Geisler:

Oh, okay. Okay.

Kady Roberts:

I would say the spiral staircase is the first phase.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Where you use your grappling hook to kind of grab the goo off of it, you fight it, you go up to the next part, you're shooting the eyes, you go back down, you go back up, kind of back and forth. You get into a rhythm with it.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

You learn very quickly where and when the little mini creatures are gonna drop when you're running up the stairs, you can quickly run up and hit them and keep going. But then is when Ciela gets her memories and powers back and you think, I beat it. Beautiful. They pull kind of the the Tears of the Kingdom or there's they do this Yeah. In a lot of Zelda games where you think you beat the boss it gets me every time.

Kady Roberts:

You're not yet dead. Yeah. I never learn. I'm like, oh, okay. I guess we're done.

Kady Roberts:

Sailing out your pirates back, everyone's like, yay. Tetra's back, everything's great. And, it comes back. You see it flying over to a ship and you're like, oh, great. Takes over the ship and this is where Linebeck kinda comes in where he's like, I'm gonna steer, you do your thing.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Cool. Awesome. There's a couple times in the game where you go to an island and you have to draw the path and then still fire and it's like, okay, gotta keep in track. They didn't want you to worry about that

David Geisler:

in this one.

Kady Roberts:

There's a lot you had to do. You gotta fire all the different eyeballs and you have to do it in like quick quick time and numerous times to try and get rid of them and then the thing is on top. It's a little bit difficult, especially because you're also trying to hit what it's shooting at you. Yeah. But I like that you learn earlier in the game with things similar to this that if you hit those things, you get some hearts back.

David Geisler:

And if they land in the water, they like beeline straight to you too.

Kady Roberts:

They do. But you can still hit them in the water. Absolutely. Which is what you learn with Joanna, the pirate ship when she takes you in the water. I also like that they let you Again, like you said, they kind of are meta in this game and they let you know, hey, we might wanna get our best ship together before we go out.

Kady Roberts:

So, I tried my darnedest to get all the ship parts and I couldn't do it.

David Geisler:

I got really close to getting all the demon parts.

Kady Roberts:

Me too.

David Geisler:

I think those are just the easiest ones to get and honestly, that's like not how I wanted my ship to look.

Kady Roberts:

Oh, I liked the demon ship.

David Geisler:

I kinda went with like I went with like the simple cannon. I like the rope sides. I think I wanted something a little more quaint, I guess.

Kady Roberts:

But No. That's fair. I ended up getting everything for the demon ship except for the horn in the back.

David Geisler:

The horn? Like the like the chimney thing?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Okay. So that's what I ran with. Cool. What what was your ship that you ran with in the final boss?

David Geisler:

Well, it was pieces. It was just disparate pieces. I was I was starting to build up to demon ship and I ended up just kind of having like I said, I think I I really liked the I had a couple cannons. I ended up going I had the castle on the back for a while Mhmm. But then I went back to like, just was like a real simple looking cabin.

David Geisler:

I can't even remember what it was, but I had gained it halfway through the game. It was a bit round, maybe a red top. I did get the the rupee anchors, which was tons of fun. I kept them out front. And then a simple a simple, I don't know, prow or hook thing in the front.

David Geisler:

And then I I liked the small cannon. And then I, somewhere along the line, got, like, literal rope edges. And Yeah. And that was it. And I think the chimney, made it as small as possible.

Kady Roberts:

So how many hearts did you end up going into this with? Because it sounds like you just got a lot of pieces together.

David Geisler:

Don't think I can even remember. Maybe six?

Kady Roberts:

Because six is the max you can get. Oh, maybe four. Three or four?

David Geisler:

Oh, oh, ship hearts? Yeah. I think maybe four because the that's the green hearts. Right?

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I went into this with six, I believe Yeah. Which I think it's the most you can get without having the entire set.

David Geisler:

I don't think I ever gained an extra heart of ship heart ever.

Kady Roberts:

Okay. So you have three.

David Geisler:

Maybe I gained one.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Maybe one more.

David Geisler:

I definitely had four at one point.

Kady Roberts:

Because I was gonna say if you paired, like, maybe two of the same parts, they'll give you an extra heart.

David Geisler:

Maybe that's what happened because also I never I never depleted those hearts in the whole game, and I never really found myself needing to care about the hearts. I'd lose one or two or maybe in a certain you know, when you're, you know, when you're, breaking down the ice, island and you're also fighting the pirates. That's I got the closest there where I got down to, like, one heart Yeah. And I was smoking or whatever. But that was the only time I I think that was actually weirdly a part I never really paid that much attention to in the game.

Kady Roberts:

No. That's fair. I was a little upset because it's so difficult to get the pieces in those games. Literally, the only way is you do the the sink hook

David Geisler:

or whatever Yeah yeah yeah.

Kady Roberts:

Which I like that mechanic a

David Geisler:

thought it was fun. A cool little mini game.

Kady Roberts:

But it's not like, oh, each one is a specific item, it's randomized every time

David Geisler:

so Oh, didn't know you

Kady Roberts:

can get like five of the same piece.

David Geisler:

Can you go back to the same spot? Mm-mm. Oh, weird.

Kady Roberts:

It's gone. So, then the only way you get pieces is from Beetle. But Beetle, it's also randomized and so you'll Wow. Go in, okay, this is the piece that he had yesterday, go exit the game entirely, set my time to the next day.

David Geisler:

In IRL? Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

It changes IRL and also

David Geisler:

Holy moly.

Kady Roberts:

They also tap into that because Beetle, it changes his time on the weekdays and then on the weekends, but at certain times, he becomes the disguised ship that he has in Wind Waker, where he has like the gladiator mask and everything and he has more expensive items there.

David Geisler:

Oh, wow. I saw I saw the mask one time. Didn't realize that was what was going

Kady Roberts:

on. It's all it's all time based.

David Geisler:

Dying.

Kady Roberts:

So, yeah, they tap into that. But, anyway, you go into the ship, fight the thing. Awesome. We beat it again. No, we didn't.

Kady Roberts:

Third round time. Yeah. And this is where the thing comes. It grabs Link

David Geisler:

I wanted to point out too, when we're chasing this when we're chasing the ship, it is the fire your cannons at the eyeballs. There's eyeballs all over the ship, fire your cannon at the eyeballs, and there's two final eyeballs, you hit all the eyeballs, and the ship goes down, and yeah, then we're here.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly. Yeah. So we have that moment that we talked about earlier. Tetra's back, but Tetra and Link are captured. Lineback hits the thing finally with the sword and the thing possesses Linebeck.

Kady Roberts:

Yep. He becomes this big, gross looking knight

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

And you're like, how do I fight this thing? Because you're trying to hit it and it just keeps hitting you back and knocking you away and you can't really block in this game, so what am I supposed to do here until you see Ciela points out on this back, there's an eyeball and she flies to the back. And I forgot to point out too, in the first phase of this, after you do, the back and forth up and down, it starts going away in circles really fast and the only way you can hit it is if you learn that Ciela can stop time.

David Geisler:

Right.

Kady Roberts:

And that's where you can hit it. So this comes back in this final boss.

David Geisler:

Am I going crazy? My memory is that I I froze time before the eyeball thing and then Ciela said something like, I don't get it, it's not working, you know, like I'm freezing time but there's he doesn't have a weak spot or something.

Kady Roberts:

No. You're absolutely correct. Okay. Yeah. She does it the first time.

Kady Roberts:

She's like, let's freeze time, which I think is also kind of fun because you have to like quickly whip out and like draw the triangle and I feel like the the way they've made it is that it's much more forgiving when you draw in this final final part.

David Geisler:

I'm sure.

Kady Roberts:

Because I didn't mess up at

David Geisler:

all Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

When I was drawing the hourglass.

David Geisler:

I also think I never got the like noise or whatever. Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So I think they were much more forgiving. So freeze time, you're hitting line back, nothing is happening. She flies back. Okay.

Kady Roberts:

There's an eye on the back. This has to be Bellum. And that's where, like you mentioned earlier, the top screen comes up and she's on where the eye is. So, you have to kind of bob and weave and dodge until it opens and then quickly draw and then go around.

David Geisler:

Yes. So yeah. So the top screen turns into, like, not exactly her view, but kind of actually. And and I think the the idea here is that in game, she's just hollering to Link like, okay. Now.

David Geisler:

But you get to see her view on that top screen. And did you notice that when time freezes and you run around, she's still watching on the top screen? You can see yourself.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. You can.

David Geisler:

You can see yourself like from a different point of view. It's very cool.

Kady Roberts:

It's very cool. So the engine's

David Geisler:

run I just realized the engine's running that math twice.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm. It just has different camera angles. Yeah. And I like the fight too because you have to stun him to kind of like get his eye opened sometimes and so you have to like hit hit hit and then I know after a certain amount of hits, he's gonna hit back so have to run around him and then freeze time so I can hit his back. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

It's a fun fight. He goes away, everything's safe, Linebeck's back, love him.

David Geisler:

Yeah. We have our big dramatic moment that we kind of already talked about almost an hour ago.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I think it's a great final boss though.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah. I remember well, also it kinda felt like Bellum kinda changed size a little bit. It felt like he was real big in the first phase and Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Kinda small by the third phase, but I don't think I that

Kady Roberts:

think also though that accounts to the fact that his powers are dwindling down.

David Geisler:

Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah. You take him down when you

Kady Roberts:

get him the first time and you have this like, Tetris back but Osu is like, well, my powers still aren't all back. Something's not right here. And then you see it come back, but it's a little bit smaller.

David Geisler:

You're right. You're right. That's a very good point. I didn't really think about that. I also would like to point out that the kind of like three very different phases of combat happening in this game are very similar to the three, maybe four very different phases of combat that happened in the final battle in Twilight Princess.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

And they're actually and these games are being developed at the same time with IG and Nume as a producer for both. It's kinda interesting. Pardon me. The in Twilight Princess, the first phase is kind of like battle the big beast.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

Second phase is it's not a spoiler, on horseback, and you're chasing things and fighting while you're chasing things. And then the third beat is a sword fight.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

This is like the same beats in this game. Mhmm. Anyways, I don't think it's a positive or negative. Just wanna point it out.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. It's cool.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

No. I I adored this game. I thought this was I'm very excited to to play spirit tracks.

David Geisler:

Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

I think this just kind of increased my interest in, DS in three DS Zelda games.

David Geisler:

And and now the three DS games, like A Link Between World and stuff, they go back to more of a classic control style, of course.

Kady Roberts:

Mhmm.

David Geisler:

But there are some touch there are some touch mechanics. Spirit Tracks, I have not experienced this, but Spirit Tracks, I understand, has a, let's say, an item that you execute it by literally blowing on the screen. It's like a it's like a wind amplifier. And I have heard tales from others that you you start to get hyper you start to hyperventilate because you're sitting there going Yeah. Blowing on your on your DS.

David Geisler:

But, you know, we'll we'll discover that in a year or so when we play that game. But, but, yes, I I also very much enjoyed this game when it first came out. Mhmm. Now that I've played some of the you know, I kinda made that point earlier about how the the two d, three d the the two and a half d style games vernacular have matured over the past, you know, fifteen years or so to the point where we're getting stuff like Echoes, what we have in Echoes of Wisdom now. But for a first crack and for taking a system that that could do three d but wasn't very powerful and was was really trying to look like a GameCube game as far as like using models that were almost it was certainly significantly less polygons but like basically taking the models from Wind Waker and and expressing them in this game where they couldn't actually render that much, I was in.

David Geisler:

I loved all of it.

Kady Roberts:

That's what I thought was cool when I played this is cause I played Wind Waker HD. I've never played the GameCube version. So when I played this, was like, oh, this is kind of what they would have looked like in the original.

David Geisler:

It's not too far off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I remember when it first came out, playing it on the DS, you could tell that there were less pixels on the screen, it but was kinda like if you squinted, it kinda looked like Wind Waker.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

No. That's funny. Do you have any, final thoughts?

David Geisler:

No. I think we've expressed them all at different points in this in this, in this episode. Thoughts about the dungeon, the art style, thoughts about the controls. I think maybe the one last thing, because I know we're this has turned into an epic episode, and I love that. But, we usually let the the review episodes be almost two hours long, by the way.

David Geisler:

The the one the the when we were talking about the the clawshot game or the the, you know, the the

Kady Roberts:

Yeah.

David Geisler:

Grabbing treasure from the ocean floor, I thought that was so fun because in Wind Waker, you really just had to find the spot and then Mhmm.

Kady Roberts:

It would

David Geisler:

go down and come back up. And I thought, oh, another clever use of touch of of the dual screen. Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

I was shocked when I did my first one. I'm like,

David Geisler:

oh, it's

Kady Roberts:

a mini game?

David Geisler:

Yeah. It's a mini game. I gotta work for this. But it was a fun little one, and sometimes it's frustrating. It's supposed to be.

David Geisler:

It's a little mini game. I thought that was cool. But to that point, there's a very sailing around is done very, very differently in this game. Mhmm. In Wind Waker, you strike your sail, you change the direction of the wind, and you're off, baby.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. And in this game, I I thought it was very smart that they clearly if you're designing in reverse, they're like, well, we wanna use the touch screen. What if you can draw your route? And I'm sure at first, it's like, well, that's not wind doesn't work that way. That's not very wind like.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. And I'm sure someone in development said, well, what if it's not a sailing ship? What if it's a steamboat and it can Yeah. Do its own route? And then someone says, yeah, that's fine.

David Geisler:

But if you're gonna draw the line, why don't we just have it steer? If you're the if you're the cat the pilot of the ship, the captain of the ship, why don't we just have them steer the boat around? And they thought, well, how do we how do we motivate that you have to draw a line? Got it. You have a secondary character.

David Geisler:

He's the captain of the ship. You chart the course, and he follows it. Like, you can just see them. You can just imagine them reverse engineering this thing. Yeah.

David Geisler:

And I think that they did it beautifully is is my kind of final takeaway there. I don't know.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. And with that, I appreciate that they made the ocean a little bit smaller. So, because they made it that you need to pay attention Mhmm. When you're charting your ship. Whereas, like you said, in Wind Waker, especially in the GameCube days, you kind of put the direction you're going and you'd set your controller aside to kind of go and do stuff and then you'll come back right where there finally.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Whereas in this, they wanted you to pay attention because there's creatures that can pop out of the water that you gotta fight and all that. So, how do we keep their attention but still not make it sound like it's forever moving? And, that's where they made the ocean a little bit smaller, so it's a little bit quicker to get places. And then, they also introduced the golden frogs where you can kind of fast travel as well.

Kady Roberts:

So, I feel like they did a really good job making it so sailing never felt super tedious in this game.

David Geisler:

I agree completely. And then, the final note about sailing I have is the one letdown, but I think it's completely justified and I totally get it, is that you don't they don't stream load the islands. You can't just pull up on an island. Exactly. They're kind of like abstract versions and they have to load the island.

David Geisler:

But that's clearly because of the limitations of the DS. Exactly. And I'm just happy they made the ocean in the first place. I think they did a great job.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I don't blame them at all for that. I think they did really good with what they could do at the time with the DS. Yeah. I think it was I'm playing it now on the DS.

Kady Roberts:

I was shocked at how much they were able to do with it.

David Geisler:

Oh, I just got a great idea. I think I just we maybe we should do this every time we review a Zelda game. Let's finish on this if you don't mind. For someone who's curious about this game, who's listening to our show, maybe they haven't played it yet. We have a lot of listeners that were introduced to Zelda with Breath of the Wild and stuff like that.

David Geisler:

Do you feel that there are any games that should be played before this one to get ready for this one?

Kady Roberts:

Honestly, the only one I would say is probably Wind Waker.

David Geisler:

Sure.

Kady Roberts:

Because I feel like with this being a direct sequel to Wind Waker, it would help you to get attached to the characters, especially attached to Tetra to give you a motivation for okay, why are we just going to save her? But other than that, obviously you could learn a little bit from some of the other three d s ports, but this one of the first d s games for Zelda in the first place, so they make it very intuitive. They Honestly, I don't think any of the other d s games are played this way, so it would honestly kind of be a hindrance to play some of the other ones where you're used to using your control.

David Geisler:

I don't want to push my glasses up my nose, oh, well, actually you, the the two DS games are played this way and then the three DS games are played the other way. That's a little bit of a technicality.

Kady Roberts:

No. That's completely fair. I've never had a two DS. So that's why.

David Geisler:

A two d s or d no, not even

Kady Roberts:

two d A regular d s.

David Geisler:

Even a two d s still had the better processor. This is just a d s.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. I've never had one.

David Geisler:

Yeah.

Kady Roberts:

So I only growing up, the first one I ever got was a three d s.

David Geisler:

Right. Right.

Kady Roberts:

Right. So that's completely fair. Thank you for telling me that. Yeah.

David Geisler:

Hang have

Kady Roberts:

no clue. So yeah, I would say just Wind Waker first, which if you don't have a Wii U, then good for you because there's a new GameCube port over on the Switch two. So there you go.

David Geisler:

Is there?

Kady Roberts:

There's a new Oh yeah. It's on

David Geisler:

the GameCube NSO.

Kady Roberts:

Uh-huh. Oh

David Geisler:

yes. That

Kady Roberts:

was that the Wind Waker's on there.

David Geisler:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Super cool. Yeah. Awesome.

David Geisler:

I love that. I think I agree. Wind Waker's probably the only thing you need to play or And you don't even need to. No. No.

David Geisler:

No. Yeah. But if you're if you're curious about this game and you're thinking about like, what order should I if I wanna go back into the Zelda library and the Zelda history, which games should I play? Yeah. Yeah.

David Geisler:

Maybe that's it. Maybe maybe lightly A Link to the Past or Link's Awakening, but that's only so that you can experience a two d top down game Mhmm. And have something to kind of reference off of, but there's no there aren't any story connections or anything like that or place even the play style is completely different.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. I like that. I like that question. That's good.

Kady Roberts:

I also think that this is a great game for a beginner Zelda player to play.

David Geisler:

I think it was designed to be.

Kady Roberts:

Exactly.

David Geisler:

Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Awesome.

Kady Roberts:

Awesome. David, if they wanna find you, where can they find you?

David Geisler:

If the audience wants to find me, they can find me on x and blue sky and all the things and in the Instagrams and the whatevers at raptor paint. Super easy. Raptor paint.

Kady Roberts:

Beautiful. You can find me at the letters k d stargazer over on Instagram and TikTok, mainly Instagram though. And you can find another Zelda podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're another Zelda pod on like everything, and also have a website called another Zelda podcast where you can check us out and also, there's a lot of other six flat Six Five shows that you can go check out. I know I've been hearing a lot of good things about, another Pokemon podcast.

David Geisler:

Another Pokemon podcast, they are killing it.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. So, if you're a Pokemon fan, go check them out as well. Mhmm. So, yeah. We Oh, also also, we have a Patreon.

Kady Roberts:

So go check us out on Patreon, become a magical sword person, you get some extra content.

David Geisler:

Yeah. It's great. We have three tiers, magical sword tier which has a lot of extra bonus content and videos of us. We're waving to our magical sword people right now. We've set up cameras in the studio and, and and record ourselves doing this and kinda hang out them a little bit extra.

David Geisler:

We have a we have a white sword tier, which is, episodes with a little extra content, and they come out a week early than they do for the public as well. We'll put throw bonus episodes on there. Some of the most recent bonus episodes Katie and I recorded were, ones about our reactions to the Zelda film casting. Mhmm. I think we did a few of it was you know, a lot of times we'll kinda do our slightly more newsworthy Yeah.

David Geisler:

Episodes there if there's like a release or trailer.

Kady Roberts:

Not as evergreen.

David Geisler:

Something that's not as evergreen that's part of like our normal show library. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely right. I think we can leave it there.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. No. That sounds great.

David Geisler:

We're working on another one. We got a new six five show coming out that's going to be very cool. It's gonna be a fictional narrative show that is probably probably won't see the public until 2026 a little bit, early twenty twenty six, but, can't wait to make that one. That's one that Katie and I are working on together as well.

Kady Roberts:

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you guys so much, and we'll check you out at the next one.

David Geisler:

Okay. Bye.