The Primary Goal of Orthodox Parenting With Paul and Cindy Karos

As Orthodox Christian parents, we have one primary job and one goal: to help our children pursue a life of holiness. In this episode, Paul and Cindy Karos return to the podcast to discuss how we can help our children become Christlike—from actively participating in the life of the Church to making thoughtful choices in areas like extracurricular activities.They also explain the analogy of the path and the summit and share what it can teach us about living our daily lives in pursuit of holiness and union with God.

Episode Recap:

• Today we’re talking with Paul and Cindy Karos about the goal of Orthodox Christian parenting.
• Why is helping our children pursue holiness the most important thing?
• The journey of faith is a journey toward the summit, which is union with God. 
• The path of becoming Christlike is one we’re called to follow our entire life.
• How do we teach our children to follow the path? 
• Can you share some practical examples of following the path in the context of extracurricular activities?
• How do we help kids pursue their talents while also staying close to the life of the church?
• Look at where you’re spending time and money to understand what you value. 
• How can you introduce Orthodoxy to kids for the first time? 
• There’s no better path or summit than this one! 

Resources:

• Follow and rate the podcast on Apple, Spotify or YouTube
• Download this episode’s free Discussion Guide
• Explore the full library of Faithtree Resources
• Download The Encounter app
• “10 Things Every Orthodox Parent Should Know” 

What is Orthodox Christian Parenting?

Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.

Michelle Moujaes: 00:00

What goals do you have as a parent? Have you ever thought about that? Have you ever written them down? If you're like so many of us, parenting goals kind of just show up or kind of evolve over the years. So when our kids are young, maybe we just wanna keep them alive.

Michelle Moujaes: 00:14

As they enter the school years, perhaps we recognize that our role is kind of helping them maximize their opportunities or their potential. Maybe that looks like good grades or excellence in sports. And as they enter into young adulthood, mean, we obviously have goals and want our kids to do things like choose a wonderful spouse or secure a good job and stay close to their siblings once we're no longer around. All of these goals are good goals. But as it turns out, for Orthodox Christians, they are not the primary goal of parenting.

Michelle Moujaes: 00:47

For Orthodox Christians, we only have one goal. And on today's episode, we're gonna talk about what it is and how we'll get there. This is one episode I promise you won't wanna miss. Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Mujaias, and I'm so glad that you're here.

Michelle Moujaes: 01:10

Today, we are welcoming back two really great friends of mine, active leaders in family ministry across the Orthodox world, and the authors of an upcoming Orthodox parenting book that I've read, and I can promise you, you're going to love it. Paul and Cindy Caros from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Most importantly about Paul and Cindy is that they've raised three children, all adults now, who are passionate about their faith and who remain intimately engaged in parish life. My husband and I consider Paul and Cindy mentors to us in our parenting. And now I'm excited to bring them back to you so that you can learn from them too.

Michelle Moujaes: 01:48

Before I bring them, let me just remind you, don't forget to download your digital discussion guide so that you and a friend or a godparent or your spouse can go through what we talk about today and reflect on it more deeply. Hello, Cindy and Paul. Welcome back.

Paul Karos: 02:22

It's great to be here, Michelle.

Cindy Karos: 02:24

Thanks for having us, Michelle.

Michelle Moujaes: 02:26

Today, we're talking about the goal of Orthodox Christian parenting. And I know, we touched on this a little bit in our first season, but I wanna ask you guys, what is the goal? Because as parents, we have lots of what I would call, mini goals. Meaning we want our kids to do well in school. Obviously, that's a good thing.

Michelle Moujaes: 02:46

We want our kids to be healthy. We want our kids to, have good friends. We want them to have good jobs. But as Orthodox Christian parents, none of those things is our primary goal. So I know I've learned a lot and my husband has learned a lot, from both of you about the primary goal.

Michelle Moujaes: 03:04

So tell us what is the primary goal for Orthodox Christian parents?

Paul Karos: 03:07

Well, us, and us learning from you and Waleed Michelle too, by the way. So, you know, the the the the real goal would be it it would be this, that as parents, we help our children choose for themselves as they grow and as they leave our home, that they choose to pursue holiness holiness.

Michelle Moujaes: 03:29

Great.

Paul Karos: 03:29

Okay? To be Christ like. That's the real goal.

Michelle Moujaes: 03:33

The definite the definition of holiness, to be Christ like?

Paul Karos: 03:35

To be Christ like. And, you know, the the church uses lots of language for that. It's the same thing. Theosis, Christ likeness, holiness, salvation, all these the kingdom of heaven.

Cindy Karos: 03:47

The kingdom of heaven. These are of god.

Paul Karos: 03:49

Of god. These are all the same words for holiness, Christ likeness.

Michelle Moujaes: 03:54

Okay. I'm gonna just say that back to make sure we're all on the same page. So in the Orthodox Church, we understand the goal, I would say of everything for all of us, but certainly as parents is to help our kids be holy, which is the same thing as to help them be Christ like or to help them on the path to holiness or to help them seek the kingdom of heaven. That's all the same language about what the ultimate goal of our life is.

Paul Karos: 04:20

That's right. And we would just tweak that to say that they choose it for themselves freely by the time they leave our home.

Michelle Moujaes: 04:26

Great. Yeah. I love it. Okay. That's so good.

Michelle Moujaes: 04:29

I know I've heard you use this language and I I know that it's from the saints and the fathers of the church, but we often refer to that pursuit as the summit, going after the summit. Is that right?

Paul Karos: 04:40

That's correct. Yep. And it really Tell

Michelle Moujaes: 04:42

me what's a summit, Paul. Yes. Give me language Okay.

Paul Karos: 04:45

So that summit is those same things that you just said. It would be all those same words, holiness, union with God, theosis, kingdom of heaven, Christ likeness, transformation. All these are the summit. And what's really cool is Saint Simeon, the new theologian who died around October or so, he he did this analogy with his monks, and it's one that we can use with our children too. He had them imagine this climb, and on this climb was the summit that you're trying to go toward.

Michelle Moujaes: 05:15

Like up a mountain, you're talking

Paul Karos: 05:16

Like the top of the mountain. So you're at the base of the mountain.

Michelle Moujaes: 05:18

Okay. Okay.

Paul Karos: 05:19

And you got this lifelong climb. Exactly. And and so he talks to him about imagine what that climb is gonna look like. And he tells him to to think about that summit, which is this beautiful view with the fresh air, the all the stuff worth getting there for. That's the kingdom of heaven, salvation, holiness, all these things.

Paul Karos: 05:36

It's the same same words. And so it's really this this lifelong journey on the path. And then there's this path that leads to that summit. And he tells the monks, hey. There's a lot of other paths that are gonna tempt you to go away from the path.

Paul Karos: 05:52

And and that's that's really his analogy. And this is the analogy we love to use in workshops with with parents and and for their children.

Cindy Karos: 05:59

Well, it turns out that St. Simeon wasn't really talking to a group of parents, he was talking to his monks, which means he was talking to all of us, that that should be all of our goal. And you know, that's the important thing if we're leading our children, it's got to be our goal too.

Michelle Moujaes: 06:17

Yes, yes, yes. So okay, I'm going to just recap this again. So as parents or as Orthodox Christians, the goal if we imagine it to be climbing a path like up Mount Everest, right? Like we're climbing up Machu Picchu or Kilimanjaro. Right?

Michelle Moujaes: 06:34

And so the goal is to reach that summit or that peak where that's where all the good stuff is. It's clean air. That's the views. It's everything that's good and beneficial. Is that right?

Paul Karos: 06:45

That's right.

Michelle Moujaes: 06:46

Yeah. And so what Saint Simeon said is all of us are called to get on the path to walk towards that peak or that summit.

Paul Karos: 06:53

That's right.

Michelle Moujaes: 06:53

Okay. So what's the path? Tell us that.

Paul Karos: 06:59

Well, the path the path is the is the way of life. And and the path, by the way so let's use the same analogy where we have those different words for the summit. We can have these these different words the fathers use and the and the hymnology of the church. So when you're hearing these in church, they all sound the same. The the path of holiness, the path, the royal road, the narrow path.

Paul Karos: 07:20

All these are the same the same words that mean it's the it's the path of the commandments of Christ. The path of becoming Christ like, like, the virtues, which we can talk about. It's the life of the church. It's following the path of the saints. All of these are the same words that in essence, if we choose to to pursue and struggle on that path, it will take us toward the summit.

Paul Karos: 07:46

That's that's the idea.

Michelle Moujaes: 07:47

Great. That's really, really helpful. I think that's really helpful, especially when we're sitting in the liturgy or for to know that there's many ways to talk about the same thing, which is the summit is what we are invited to pursue and that there is a journey along a path to reach that summit. Okay, good. So I'm with you.

Michelle Moujaes: 08:08

Tell me about the virtues. You said virtues. Tell me about that. Is that the commandments? Is that what is that?

Paul Karos: 08:13

Yeah. So the the virtues we the the easiest way to start is just to start in the fruits of the holy spirit in Galatians. You know, where Saint Paul talks about and the fruits of the spirit are patience, kindness, self joy, and all these things. And these are things that every human being is implanted with as potential in Christ because we're made in the image of God. So therefore, our job is to cultivate these, virtues, these these fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Paul Karos: 08:43

God will grow them within us. That's the synergy between God and man. But it's literally that over time we reach our potential in Christ by becoming like Him.

Michelle Moujaes: 08:54

So you're saying every human being is born with the potential to be peaceful, to be gentle, to be kind, to be patient.

Paul Karos: 09:02

That's correct. Exactly. So

Michelle Moujaes: 09:03

our job is to cultivate those virtues, you know, like we see in Galatians or like we see, you know, the invitation in the commandments. Our job is to cultivate them in ourselves so that that's what makes us more and more like Christ. Am I right so far?

Cindy Karos: 09:20

That's what being on the path means is that we are really trying to cultivate those virtues in ourselves and then, of course, in our kids. It really doesn't matter about the summit as much as it does that we're staying on the path. In fact, we're told that we'll never reach the summit, which In this life.

Paul Karos: 09:41

That's right.

Cindy Karos: 09:41

In this life. As a mom who likes to be goal oriented, that's just a very confusing message, it's it's really helpful if you're a perfectionist because ultimately it's not about being perfect. In fact, we're gonna fall down, we're gonna get off that path a 100 of times, But our goal is to keep that focus and to do the things to help us be Christ like or help our children be Christ like. That's what being on the path means.

Paul Karos: 10:11

Remember Bishop Anthony came to our family camp and said, all you perfectionists, take a big take a big deep breath because you don't reach perfection in this life. He said, however, like the Lord said, be perfect as your heavenly father's perfect. So we strive for his perfection, but we don't actually get there in this life. We will be with him eternally and we'll keep growing forever. That's what the fathers teach us.

Cindy Karos: 10:32

And Michelle, when we talk about like a path to holiness or the narrow path, neither of those two things remind me about something I'm gonna do with my kids. I don't think about them as, Oh my gosh, I need to make them holy and I need to make sure I'm on this narrow path. But the fact of the matter is that they follow what we do. You know, where we climb, they climb. And if you can imagine a couple young children on a climb, you're taking them for a hike, and what do they do?

Cindy Karos: 11:07

They don't usually run off to the cliff, they kind of stay near you. They follow what you do. That's the same thing in life, that we need to be on that path, and our goal is to help them love that path so much that they're going to wanna be on it forever after we're gone.

Michelle Moujaes: 12:11

So what I'm hearing you say is that the first focus is for us to be journeying, and we will fall and we'll get back up and we'll fall and we'll get back up. But then also to help cultivate a love for that journey, which includes struggle for all of our children. Okay. So with that being true, then what does that look like in like practical everyday decision making or everyday behavior? What does that look like in our house?

Paul Karos: 12:39

So what's really cool about that question is that every part of family life and this is why family life is just simply so tremendous. Because every pursuit we have in family can ultimately be done in a way that is pursuing the path toward the summit, or it can be really looking somewhere else. So we can look at everyday things. I if wanna try to grab an example, Cindy, maybe, but there's you know, everything we do, no matter what activity, it can be looked at with this framework, and we can even use it to talk to our kids about, like, is this on the path? Is this not on the path?

Paul Karos: 13:12

And we gotta check ourselves. Are we pursuing the path? So

Cindy Karos: 13:16

Well, even, you know, working hard, that is something that's on the path. Or being kind when you don't feel like being kind. And using examples when your child comes home from school and is struggling with friend, and, you know, as parents, you kinda get angry. You're frustrated when your child is struggling, but helping your child see that it's really important that we forgive or we are kind. Those are the kinds of things that we're doing to try and teach our children to be Christ like.

Michelle Moujaes: 13:52

So so let's get practical for our audience. If we are trying to cultivate, the virtues and those things which keep us on the path as parents and for our children, give me something practical. What does that look like? Let's say with extracurriculars. Right?

Michelle Moujaes: 14:07

Everybody's pursuing extracurriculars For sure. In a really intense way these days. So what would it look like to compete well and to be involved, but at the same time, to stay on the path? Okay.

Cindy Karos: 14:19

Great. Alright. Well, so let's just say marching band. Right? And let's just say the kinds of things you need to do to be on the path would be to take a look at the virtues, that Christ would have.

Cindy Karos: 14:34

So hard work, working hard to learn your music, having excellence, really trying hard. Practicing. Practicing. Following your leader, he's asking you to be there on time and doing the kinds of things, being obedient, having teamwork, working well with your peers, not worrying if you didn't get the solo part, you are happy for the person who did. Maybe paying attention to the kids who are outside of the circle of cool kids, and you try and bring them in a little bit.

Cindy Karos: 15:08

Those are all things that would be on the path, right?

Michelle Moujaes: 15:13

Okay. In

Cindy Karos: 15:13

the end, that creates a person who is a leader. On the other hand, let's just say the person really wanted to be the drum major, and she told her parents, hey. I wanna be the drum major. And if you're a parent like me, I'd be strategizing. Well, here are the things you need to do to be the drum major.

Cindy Karos: 15:33

And That's right.

Paul Karos: 15:34

She did that with sales career, she was really good at it, by the way.

Cindy Karos: 15:36

Setting the outcome of what you want gets you off the path. Because now you are focused at competing maybe in a not so gracious way. Maybe you're you're gonna do whatever it takes to be the number one student. You're gonna make sure that your leader is watching you if you're doing good instead of just

Paul Karos: 15:58

doing It kinda leads to jealousy. And And it could lead to

Michelle Moujaes: 16:02

poor kid Anxiety. Yeah.

Cindy Karos: 16:04

This poor kid, if she doesn't become the drum major, she's gonna feel like she failed. Right?

Michelle Moujaes: 16:11

Got it.

Cindy Karos: 16:11

So being off the path is where you focus so much on an outcome, and being on the path would be just to do those virtues. And in the end, you end up, you may end up getting the goal that you hoped to go have.

Michelle Moujaes: 16:28

I I struggle with that, though. So let me go ahead and wrap myself out. This will be Michelle's confession. Yeah.

Paul Karos: 16:33

Good.

Michelle Moujaes: 16:33

But when you see your children pursuing an external goal, we'll call it. So they wanna be the drum major. They wanna be the valedictorian. They wanna make the team. They wanna whatever the thing is, are are we called then to shift them from that goal?

Michelle Moujaes: 16:50

Like, your goal is to try out for the team and to do everything you can to prepare for it, but whether or not you make the team not really our concern. Is that what that looks like? Or or what about valedictorian or what you know, any of those things. What does that look like?

Paul Karos: 17:04

If if maybe the visual you could use is there's a path and this path leads toward that summit of Christ likeness and holiness. Right? And so if you're just on there's trails. There's many little mini trails on that same path. Okay?

Cindy Karos: 17:18

Okay.

Paul Karos: 17:19

So it's okay to say, hey, I really would like to make this as a goal, but I'm doing it. And my real focus is I'm developing the virtue. And you do have to let let go because whether you make that goal or not isn't the definition of who you are. Are you practicing? Are you being a team player?

Paul Karos: 17:36

And what Syndicate, which think is really powerful, you're kinda making that goal in a off the pathway. You're you're making that its own summit at all costs. And when that happens, you're not gonna you're gonna find yourself not being focused on that daily interactions with the people around you of developing Christ likeness. And so it's it's okay to have those goals. Those are great as long as it's a trail on the path of holiness, not a whole different path to a whole different summit that's gonna cause you to be frustrated, jealous, you know, maybe irritable, anxious for sure.

Paul Karos: 18:10

All these things that that know? So I think that's a way to look at it. Does that help? I don't

Michelle Moujaes: 18:15

Yeah. That's

Cindy Karos: 18:16

good. Being competitive is not a bad thing. God gives us that ability to be competitive. It's just when you actually make the end result the thing instead of Yes. Using those gifts that he has given you in the right way.

Paul Karos: 18:33

Right. Saint Paul said, I fought the good fight. I finished the race. Right? He's competitive to defeat temptation, to defeat our our passions, these things.

Paul Karos: 18:40

The good's good. Competition is good.

Michelle Moujaes: 18:42

Okay. This is good. I'm gonna push you all to get even more granular because I can't be the only mom who has this question. So if you have a kid who is naturally gifted in a certain area, it's okay you're saying that to set certain goals. For example, I'm in Los Angeles.

Michelle Moujaes: 19:00

Everyone I know is in the junior Olympics. Okay. So if you have a kid who's gifted in a sport, we say, okay, it's rigorous. If you wanna be a part of the junior Olympics, you're gonna have to make some sacrifices and do some things. Now where do we know that we've strayed off the path?

Cindy Karos: 19:18

Well, I think it's important to know that being on the path is living the life of the church. So if your focus is taking you completely away from that, that's a concern.

Paul Karos: 19:31

That's a concern.

Michelle Moujaes: 19:32

Right? What's the life of the church, Cindy? Should name that for our audience.

Cindy Karos: 19:36

It would be, you know, attending church services, teaching your kids what prayer means, having a relationship with God, fasting, reading scriptures, understanding what God taught us, taking confession or having communion or living the life sacramentally of the church.

Michelle Moujaes: 19:56

Got

Cindy Karos: 19:57

it. Those things, if you completely ignore all of those things, you're off the path.

Paul Karos: 20:02

And and I think you can do that as a family. When you start to use this analogy with yourselves as parents and also with your kids, you actually start to have this language with each other. Okay, how do we pursue this extracurricular activity in a way that keeps us on the path so that this extracurricular activity is a trail on the path, not a different summit with a different path? And those discussions will will really guide you. So for instance, the language that you might use with your children is you're focusing them, hey, great practice.

Paul Karos: 20:35

Hey, good self discipline. Hey, I saw that you practice before you went out and played. Or I saw that you were happy for your teammate that had a great, game or effort or whatever. So you're you're through the way you're talking with your children, you are focusing on the virtues of that activity. That's on the path.

Paul Karos: 20:56

Okay. As opposed to, oh my gosh, did you did you win? Did you get the top score? You know, when you and and this is one way to think about it. When we get anxious about our kids' extracurricular activities, chances are we're starting to be tempted to a different summit in ourselves, as parents.

Paul Karos: 21:14

Really, that's where the action is.

Cindy Karos: 21:16

And can we just say we've been there a million times? Million times. And it takes one or the other of us to remind us? You know, it's so easy to do. And by no means do we want anyone to believe we didn't follow those wrong paths or have to step off or find our way back.

Paul Karos: 21:35

In Minnesota, we are the state of hockey, I mean, number 40% of big 10 sports come from Minnesota and hockey. And so, you know, when our son was making was trying out, oh, is it gonna be A, B or C? Oh my gosh. Oh my we were totally looking at a different summit instead of like, hey.

Michelle Moujaes: 21:52

He worked really hard.

Paul Karos: 21:53

He gave it his best. That that's good. Let's see what happens.

Michelle Moujaes: 21:55

That's good enough. Actually, I'm gonna read this to you. We got a question that came in from Stacy in British Columbia. So listen to this. I am a mother of two boys.

Michelle Moujaes: 22:04

One of my sons is an extraordinarily gifted hockey player. Our life as a family is very much centered around his schedule. Isn't it good stewardship to help him excel if God gave him this giftedness? It will enable scholarships and possibly a professional career and many things that could help our family. Why is that wrong?

Michelle Moujaes: 22:24

Wow. Anyway, you said it. So what's the answer, Paul?

Paul Karos: 22:27

What a great question. First of all, the fact that you're even struggling with it is huge. The fact that this parent is trying to look at it and say, hey, we want to nurture this. This kid's got natural talents. That's on the path, by the way.

Michelle Moujaes: 22:41

Right.

Paul Karos: 22:41

Right. So this is very good.

Michelle Moujaes: 22:42

That is on the path. Okay.

Cindy Karos: 22:44

That's good.

Paul Karos: 22:44

I think the way to think about would be sit down with your husband and wife and your son and say, hey, son, you know, in this language, would be how do we assure that hockey is a trail on the path toward Christ, that we're pursuing it in a way and where we find ourselves getting off, either because of our focus or anxiety or sacrificing things that are really good for our family's soul and bodies and time together, time in the church, building community at the church. How can we do this in a way that allows us to be on this trail and allow you to thrive in hockey, but not do it in a way that we make that our summit? And that becomes a different path, and that's going to hurt us, and it's gonna hurt people around you and your and yourself. See?

Cindy Karos: 23:33

I would I would also add, you know, in Stacy's case, her son might make the NHL. But most of us at one point or another thought Yeah. One of our kids had promised

Michelle Moujaes: 23:44

He's gonna be the next superstar.

Cindy Karos: 23:45

Well, even whether they were a superstar, they might make the varsity team in high school, which would help them get to maybe a scholarship or whatever. The reality is most of our children stop playing whatever sport we thought they were gonna be excelling in in, like, eighth grade. And That's right.

Paul Karos: 24:04

That's right.

Cindy Karos: 24:04

As a result, if for some reason you have pursued this sport in such a way that you have completely ruled out going to church, building relationships there, teaching your kids about prayer. You know, if you've done those things, then it's gonna be very it's gonna be much more difficult for you to jump back in. And I think that's the litmus test is can you pursue those things and at the same time stay on the path by helping your child really embrace the the Christ like virtues and, like, do the things at church. That's the important part.

Paul Karos: 24:45

I was just gonna say that one of the biggest things we have seen is when kids have sports go against them at some point, Usually, it's like junior year or something. Maybe they don't make a team. And now the family has looked and they've thought, you know what? My kids have no real friendships in the church community. They've had no you know?

Paul Karos: 25:03

And now we wanna try to get back because maybe our kids are really down or they're feeling like their friendship groups doing risk behavior. So and now to try to get back, it it can still happen. But the temptation of making a extracurricular activity, whether it's music or or a sport, making that its own summit, That's the danger. Make sure it's just a trail because your kids are going to switch trails. They're going to go from one trail hockey.

Paul Karos: 25:31

They might switch to another trail music. They might stick to another trail debate. They might know, that's fine. If we're still pursuing virtues of Christ to become holy, are we working on those things? That's that's the key.

Cindy Karos: 25:44

It takes a lot more work to do what we're saying. Yeah. But I guess we're saying the work is totally worth it. All of our kids were in competitive sports. I mean, they played golf, baseball, they danced, you know, a variety of different things.

Cindy Karos: 26:01

And it took really the two of us sitting down and saying, how are we gonna let that how are we gonna help them pursue those things and make sure they are a part of the church, that they understand what is really important in their lives? And it meant, you know, working extra hard by making sure we were at services when, you know, maybe we could have or should have been at some practice or event or, you know, we There's gonna be some sacrifices. We had to do a little bit of both. And I think that's what we're saying is important.

Michelle Moujaes: 27:40

One of the things Walid and I found very helpful as we were raising our kids, are still raising our kids, is, you know, that old adage that there are two really practical ways that you can know where your focus is. Start with your calendar and your pocketbook. So where are you spending your time? Where are you spending your money? And if there is no, real focus on the church or building relationships in the church or, you know, if everything is external, you're probably off the path.

Michelle Moujaes: 28:09

And so I'll just tell you what that looked like in our house. One of our children came and had all the things that they wanted to do. They wanted to be in school leadership. They wanna play basketball and volleyball. They were taking chanting lessons at church.

Michelle Moujaes: 28:21

They were doing all the things, but eventually we totaled it all up and it was a hundred and eighty six hours. And I remember saying to my kiddo, there's not that many hours in a week. So something's gotta give. And it really then allowed us to have a discussion on maybe we're not pursuing excellence in any one area, or maybe we're a little bit out of bounds or off the path to use your language. This is about something else.

Michelle Moujaes: 28:45

And so I think time and money are really, quick ways to help us know, like, are we on the path or are we not on

Paul Karos: 28:52

the path? Yeah. And, you know, I think that idea of of having the humility as parents to know that we will fall off the path ourselves and our kids will too.

Michelle Moujaes: 29:01

Sure.

Paul Karos: 29:02

And to be able to, you know, on an ongoing basis, talk to each other and say, you know, are we headed toward the summit here? Are we on the path? Are we somewhere else? And when we're off the path, it's okay. That's that's what repentance is about.

Paul Karos: 29:13

And that that's a whole lifelong journey of of repenting in turn. So we shouldn't be shocked when we find ourselves that our priorities are are off and maybe we're chasing some other summit. Right? So I think that's

Cindy Karos: 29:25

We always joke that if, liturgy cost what hockey costs, nobody would miss it. Know? Mean, if youth group was, you know, if we had to pay so much dollars to go to youth group, you'd be like, at youth group. But

Michelle Moujaes: 29:43

That's right. That's right. Well, I actually think that's a really good call out because I think sometimes in in this culture, we convince ourselves of things that maybe aren't true. For example, I have to do all this so that my kid can get a scholarship. Well, for a lot of us, if we saved as much money as we spend on extracurriculars, we could just pay for college.

Michelle Moujaes: 30:06

Like, don't need those scholarships. They just have four years of it.

Paul Karos: 30:10

Yeah. And I and I think just as parents to continually come back and say, you know, are we are we teaching the behaviors, stances, attitudes, heart of the virtues of Christ, the patience, the courage, the kindness, the forgiveness, the forgive 70 times 70, the commandments of Christ. If if we're teaching those things in the everyday events, including extracurricular activities, schoolwork, other things, then we're on this path. And good things are gonna happen for them. They're gonna grow to be who Christ wants them to be.

Paul Karos: 30:46

And and that will be, by the way, probably good from a worldly perspective, but that's not our goal. It'll happen. It'll happen just because Yes. Good people tend to have beautiful things open up to them. But then it becomes, okay, how do I use my success if we happen to become successful the way the world defines success?

Paul Karos: 31:04

Well then, okay, Lord, what's the best way for us to use that?

Michelle Moujaes: 31:07

I love that. You guys, I'm gonna have one more question for you, and then we will, thank you for your time and bless and I release could talk to you all day. Okay. This comes from Thomas in Northridge, California. That's right here.

Michelle Moujaes: 31:22

Thomas asked, I am new to Orthodoxy. My kids are not really excited about leaving their friends in the Protestant youth group that they grew up in. They don't even want to give Orthodoxy a chance. Do you have any suggestions? That's a good question.

Michelle Moujaes: 31:36

And Thomas, I know you're not alone.

Paul Karos: 31:38

Yeah.

Michelle Moujaes: 31:38

That's a great question.

Paul Karos: 31:39

Yeah. So this is very important because belonging is an important developmental thing for our children. Right? That they do want to belong. Sure.

Paul Karos: 31:48

And so I think, you know, first thing I would just validate for my children and say, hey. You know, I can see this could be very hard. So, you know, let's take it slow. Okay. Let's let's try to do a dual parallel track here, and let's try to start getting involved.

Paul Karos: 32:01

And they they may have to go back and forth a little bit just for a little while just to be to help the children and not have such a traumatic change. But let them see your excitement about the liturgy. Try to, you know, answer their questions. Hopefully, they'll start to experience the peace and the renewal that they'll see in the Orthodox Church. Go to some events, talk to the priest, maybe some families that you can invite over for dinner and get some relationships going potentially.

Paul Karos: 32:29

So it it will take some work and be patient. It doesn't have to happen overnight. That'd be the first thing I would say, and it will happen naturally, I think. So that would be one thing. I know you have any thoughts.

Cindy Karos: 32:38

I think really the key here is they're they're afraid they're gonna lose their friends. I mean, becoming Orthodox doesn't mean you can't have friends outside of the Orthodox church. I mean, we all

Michelle Moujaes: 32:49

do, So

Cindy Karos: 32:51

those relationships don't have to go away. It's just that they're adding new relationships and new experiences to their-

Michelle Moujaes: 32:58

That's right.

Paul Karos: 32:59

Yeah. So maybe they don't get to see those kids in youth group at the Protestant church, but that's a it's Cindy's point there. Maybe it's like, hey. Well, why don't we pick two or three of your favorite Protestant friends and let's have them over more often? Let's let's have them to our house.

Michelle Moujaes: 33:11

That's right. That's right. And you know what? I teach a high school Sunday school class at my parish. And one of the things that we have found has been really helpful is one, when parents are really highly communicative.

Michelle Moujaes: 33:25

So myself and my teaching partners aren't always gonna catch what the vibe is or what's underneath that vibe or if there's some resistance. So the more parents I would say to Thomas and his if he has a wife or if he's a single parent to those helping him, talk to the people in your parish. Keep connected with them so that they can support you intentionally. And then the other thing that I would say is we have seen great success in having people new to orthodoxy. You know, we get asked, can I bring a friend?

Michelle Moujaes: 33:57

Of course you can. Bring your friend to youth group. Let's make it as safe as possible. And also maybe identifying one or two of the leaders in our youth group to help embrace and walk with because it is scary. I remember what it was like to be new to a school when I was in sixth grade, it was horrible.

Michelle Moujaes: 34:12

I hated it. So, just that intentionality and high, high communication, I think is really helpful.

Paul Karos: 34:17

That's great. I think that's so true. Yeah.

Cindy Karos: 34:19

And getting them to a camp at some point is helpful because

Michelle Moujaes: 34:23

Yes. Camps, camps, camps.

Cindy Karos: 34:24

Bigger kind of group that maybe they're used to having a larger collection of people in one place, they'll see that that can happen here too.

Michelle Moujaes: 34:34

And you have a little bit more time than an hour on a Sunday. You can actually form those relationships. Oh, that's so good. All right. Anything else that we want to leave with our friends, Paul and Cindy?

Michelle Moujaes: 34:44

Anything else we should tell them about the path, the summit, the struggle to stay on the path?

Paul Karos: 34:49

I would just say, you know, we really believe that there's no better path to no better summit to with no bet with no better struggle than to grow into holiness our whole life long with good days and bad days, and that it's worth the climb, and it's worth the struggle.

Michelle Moujaes: 35:07

That's right.

Paul Karos: 35:08

And, just, encourage you that you won't be perfect. Nobody is. But working together, you can make great progress. And whatever the Lord wants to do with that is good enough.

Michelle Moujaes: 35:19

That's right. That's right. Cindy, any last words from you?

Cindy Karos: 35:22

There are a lot of ways to help stay on the path. Maybe we can come back another time and talk a little bit more about it because we've learned a lot from our mistakes. Trust me. And I think that just helping parents understand that there is no perfect way, you are gonna make a million mistakes, and that is okay. The goal is just that our kids will want this when they are out of your home.

Michelle Moujaes: 35:50

I love that. My husband always says to me when I try and pursue perfection, which is every day, he's like, you don't have to save anyone. Jesus already came. Like, take a second. Get your eye on the prize.

Michelle Moujaes: 36:02

It's not you being perfect. He already was.

Paul Karos: 36:04

Michelle, can I get one more just quick story? It it really ties

Cindy Karos: 36:08

into this.

Paul Karos: 36:09

It it comes from on on on those, and it it it's the idea that, okay, there were two people on the path. One person made great progress. It was way up the path of holiness getting toward the summit, and they were very holy. They they were a light to the world. Okay?

Paul Karos: 36:25

There was another person who was down at the bottom of the path and struggled mightily, but kept falling off and going down different dangerous, harmful paths, but they they turn around. So I gotta come back to the path. And the story goes that both died at the same time. And then the story goes, will the Lord not take both of them immediately to the summit, the one who had made much progress and the one who had made little progress but struggled mightily? And the answer is yes.

Paul Karos: 36:52

There it is.

Michelle Moujaes: 36:53

I love it. Yeah. I love it. I love it. You all, thank you for your time as always.

Michelle Moujaes: 36:58

It's such a blessing.

Paul Karos: 36:59

Thank you, Michelle.

Cindy Karos: 37:00

Thanks, Michelle. Thanks listening

Michelle Moujaes: 37:02

to this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting. Every week, we're here to help you raise children who know Christ, who love Him and God willing, who spend their whole lives trying to be like Him. And hey, listen, if you want to go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes or by going to faithtree.org/parenting. This guide is a free gift to you and a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we discussed today with your spouse, your friends, or even just others in your parish community. You'll definitely want to check it out.

Michelle Moujaes: 37:36

Thank you so much for joining us and God willing, we'll see you next time.