Hospitable is a podcast that discusses how to make hospitality MORE human through technology.
Hospitable focuses on discussing the leading challenges facing the hospitality industry and to explore the latest trends, technologies, and best practices that are shaping the industry. Each episode features interviews with hoteliers, restaurateurs, chefs, industry analysts, and other experts who share their insights and experiences on topics such as customer experience, sustainability, innovation, staffing, and more.
Hosted by Rob Napoli
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:27:15
Ernest Lee
If you see a CitizenM room, you know you're in a citizen room, right? You can't say the same for many of the other big brands, because they all start to look alike and they all blur together, and the design is not very distinguished. We know who we are for and we know how to scale this on a global basis.
00:00:27:17 - 00:00:38:01
Rob Napoli
Hi, all Rob Napoli, host of hospitable. We are here today at the CitizenM offices in midtown Manhattan. garment district, if I'm not mistaken.
00:00:38:03 - 00:00:40:03
Ernest Lee
Right. Yeah, we call it Nomad.
00:00:40:03 - 00:00:59:06
Rob Napoli
Nomad. Okay. This is, you know, I never like, especially in that area. It's all kind of, like, congealed and, I don't know, like, down south got it. So. No, like, whatever. Nomad always since the trip me up. Although a couple of hotels that are over here that I've been to like the bars and stuff because my wife redid it we were in this area, which is super nice.
00:00:59:06 - 00:01:17:16
Rob Napoli
The Nomad over here, she just redid that. so yeah, we're here at CitizenM. I'm excited to be here. Really vibey office. if you ever stayed at a CitizenM hotel, you know the vibe. You know the look in the feel. And today we're sitting down with the chief commercial officer Ernest Lee. Ernest thank you so much for hosting us today. I appreciate you.
00:01:17:17 - 00:01:18:14
Ernest Lee
Thanks for having me.
00:01:18:16 - 00:01:36:09
Rob Napoli
Of course. So I really you know, we've been talk about do this for a while and then a million and a half things happened in between trying to record from like travel plans to me being on jury duty to whatever. So I'm excited we finally get to be here. And I kind of want to start with, I love like, the CitizenM mentality.
00:01:36:13 - 00:01:50:05
Rob Napoli
And if you go in CitizenM hotel it's super vibey. It's got a very eclectic feel. So tell us, what is it about CitizenM and what's the mission? You know, why does it bring this like vibe so much?
00:01:50:06 - 00:02:14:07
Ernest Lee
Yeah. So, number one, I'm proud that you perform your civic duty, jury duty is a very important responsibility. but with respect to CitizenM we have a very clear cut mission, which is we want to provide, affordable luxury for the people, which means essentially taking 90% of a luxury experience and offering at 60% of the price.
00:02:14:13 - 00:02:44:12
Ernest Lee
And we want to do that over and over again in the markets that we find, best represent our target audience, which are typically young people and young companies. And so for us that gravitated us towards the big gateway cities, starting in Amsterdam, then to Paris, to London, and here in the US, where we're, represented in New York, Boston, all the way to the West Coast in San Francisco, LA and Seattle.
00:02:44:16 - 00:03:23:07
Ernest Lee
Yeah. And, what we want to do is we essentially want to provide as much of the right offering as possible for this specific niche, because what we found over the years, as you study any brands, is the moment that you try to be for everybody. You're actually end up being for nobody. And so being very distinct, very disciplined and very careful in not diluting ourselves and being as much of, complete sort of representation of our original brand for this target audience and not straying too far.
00:03:23:09 - 00:03:30:11
Rob Napoli
I love that, and if I that my second, I'll just open up a new location in Austin recently. Right. And Rome, if I'm not mistaken. Right?
00:03:30:13 - 00:03:31:05
Ernest Lee
Yep.
00:03:31:06 - 00:03:43:07
Rob Napoli
I freaking love roam like I cannot wait to go to Rome and I have to check that out. I've checked out Boston, both New York locations. That's the only three of the two so far.
00:03:43:09 - 00:03:44:07
Ernest Lee
You have a lot to go.
00:03:44:09 - 00:04:01:08
Rob Napoli
Do I know our founder Kees has been to, I think, 12 of them already. so, and I love the app. The personalized app, like, you know, welcome, citizen. You have all the things you can do. Everything on the app or the iPad in the room. I think that it's it really hits in the target audience.
00:04:01:08 - 00:04:10:22
Rob Napoli
And I love the mission. And as the chief financial officer, you've been here for a little while. You've kind of grown into this role. You know what attracted you to CitizenM, when you started?
00:04:11:00 - 00:04:41:05
Ernest Lee
Yeah. So I've always been in the hospitality business and, when you're in the hospitality business, especially, most of my career being in the 2000 plus, what you notice is, that the business for a lot of reasons, attracted a lot of sophistication, over time and a lot of, I would say with sophistication, a lot of dominating financial interests.
00:04:41:05 - 00:05:10:09
Ernest Lee
And what that typically led to was a very fragmented business model, meaning that, when I was growing up, what you had was, and still have is, brands on one side, owners on another, and then sometimes developers and third party management companies, all with separate and sometimes competing interests. Yeah. And who typically is left holding the bag, our customers and sometimes employees.
00:05:10:11 - 00:05:45:16
Ernest Lee
So what I really liked and attracted to me about CitizenM was the purity in its business model, its true vertical integration. We design, we develop, we own, we brand and we operate. And having that complete control over the entire customer experience is something that I felt was very, unique and distinguished and something that really attracted to me, which is somebody that's really oriented towards building very unique customer experiences.
00:05:45:18 - 00:06:03:14
Rob Napoli
I love that. And so and it's kind of funny, right? Customer experience is a hot topic right now. And so when we think about the customer experience, what do you think really stands out? And when we get into the customer journey, from moment you walk into a hotel, what do you think really stands out about CitizenM that you feel like you all do better than anybody else?
00:06:03:16 - 00:06:26:19
Ernest Lee
Well, as I mentioned before, we are a true owner operator. And one thing that the main primary benefit is control. And so the first, element that we, really focus on is consistency. If you see a CitizenM room, you know, you're in a CitizenM room. Yeah, right. You can't say the same for many of the other big brands.
00:06:26:19 - 00:06:49:05
Ernest Lee
Yeah. Because they all start to look alike and they all blur together. And the design is not very distinguished. We know who we are for. And we know how to scale this on a global basis. And the same can be said about our public areas as well, where once you, enter our doors, sometimes you don't even have to look and open your eyes.
00:06:49:05 - 00:07:05:02
Ernest Lee
You can smell that you're in a CitizenM lobby. And so having that consistency and that clear differentiation, in the marketplace and for good reason. Right. Because people like it. it's something that I think CitizenM really stands apart from other hotels.
00:07:05:04 - 00:07:28:09
Rob Napoli
Yeah. No, I agree, and I really like the consistency. And you, you hit the nail on the head when you walk into a CitizenM whether you're in the lobby or the room, you know, you're in a CitizenM through the artwork, through the smells, the sounds. And I do love that. Like CitizenM is always a great hotel where if you want to grab a beer and vibe or if you actually want to get work done, like, I guess someone like you who travels a lot for work when you go to a hotel and there's not a place to work, you hate working.
00:07:28:12 - 00:07:44:01
Rob Napoli
At least I hate working in my hotel room. Right? It's like I need a good lobby to work out of. If you don't, it's like the it's the worst experience. So I love that CitizenM does that. And it's such a fun piece to it. and it brings to that table that customer experience. And I also love the app.
00:07:44:01 - 00:07:55:22
Rob Napoli
Like, well, my favorite thing is that you can use an iPad, an app to control everything. Like you're just taking my life and making it ten times easier, which, I think is super exciting.
00:07:56:01 - 00:08:22:13
Ernest Lee
Yeah. And I think, it's important to distinguish that we are we are not a technology company, right? We are. What we do is we try to provide all of these things to enable a better customer experience because we are an in-person company. Right. The main benefit of, being a hotel brand and a hotel company is that you're ultimately put in a position where you can make a human connection with your guest and all these other things.
00:08:22:13 - 00:08:29:23
Ernest Lee
What we're trying to do is just eliminate one piece of noise or inconvenience that travelers typically, experience. Yeah.
00:08:30:01 - 00:08:56:03
Rob Napoli
I think that's really important. Right? Because, hospitality is HGH human to human, right? It's very much a human centric business, and technology is great. And the thesis of this podcast is, how do you make hospitality more human through technology? The idea being technology plays its role, but it's not the key driver. Right. As you said, we're not a technology company, but you have technology to make the human experience of being and a citizen and that much more effective, more personal.
00:08:56:05 - 00:09:18:15
Rob Napoli
and you feel it. You could feel it in the way you interact, and you can interact as much or as little as you want and still feel taken care of. I think that's really important. So when you think about CitizenM innovation, the things that you're doing, what excites you about your job every day, what gets you up and get you going?
00:09:18:17 - 00:09:44:22
Ernest Lee
Yeah. So, it's funny, I just talked about this this morning. coincidentally, you know, for me, I feel that, you know, happiness. Somebody explained to me once, I think they probably rip it off from somewhere else. But happiness, in a personal or professional context. And oftentimes the combined is when reality minus expectation and whatever that calculus is, right?
00:09:45:00 - 00:10:15:00
Ernest Lee
And for me, like, I feel pretty content with my life. And so I there's always that something else. Right. In terms of what else might you be doing in order to lift the level of expectation, and especially for me personally, is the desire to build. Right. I mentioned before that for me, like there are motivations in life, whether it's financial rewards or ego or whatever, or like I think everybody has some iteration of that.
00:10:15:00 - 00:10:37:03
Ernest Lee
But for me, there's an innate desire to build. And CitizenM really allows for that. We, not only build literally buildings, it could be a dirty car park one day or a vacant building, and all of a sudden it's a brand new, glitzy hotel, or you're building teams or you're building products from scratch and putting it into existence.
00:10:37:03 - 00:10:41:14
Ernest Lee
Something that wasn't there before is highly motivating and highly energetic.
00:10:41:16 - 00:11:04:18
Rob Napoli
That's amazing. And I love that you brought up kind of like building something, right? And really cool because you have a really cool team, right? So you've you managing the sales, marketing and revenue teams or branding teams across the, the globe. So how do you go about managing a team that sits in different time zones, and what's the most exciting or fulfilling part of having team members around the globe currently?
00:11:04:20 - 00:11:27:10
Ernest Lee
Yeah, so having a distributed team, I mean, is not easy, right? And so technology has in a lot of ways helped, democratize that. Yeah. but there's still a lot of struggle in making it work perfectly. And so you try to find the right mix between when you want to get the teams together in person versus do things digitally.
00:11:27:15 - 00:11:52:15
Ernest Lee
But at the end of the day, trying to drive an organization, that's not just distributed, but also just volume wise, right? The number of members in that team and getting any collective to do something requires a heavy amount of discipline. Yeah, and a heavy amount of simplification. so I think what's the most difficult is getting people to work in one direction.
00:11:52:20 - 00:12:15:14
Ernest Lee
Yeah. And that often means that you have to have, very clear vision of where that direction is headed, a very clear framework on the do's and don'ts. Yeah. And then a heavy amount of trust that the teams and the individuals that you hired are able to get that job done. Yeah. And oftentimes people will go off course a little bit.
00:12:15:14 - 00:12:36:23
Ernest Lee
And you have to sort of put them back into the framework that you're trying to, steer towards. Yeah. But ultimately what you want to be is, very disciplined in getting the momentum towards that vision, and a little bit more flexible on how you get there. Yeah.
00:12:37:01 - 00:13:03:15
Rob Napoli
That's interesting because having a distributed team, I think that everything you said is amazing and it's something that I, it's in theory, great. But also with a six hour time difference and sometimes those different things, it makes it really hard to kind of manage your schedule. So for you, how does your schedule look? Do you get up early to handle stuff in Europe and like what is your kind of day to day look like, or how do you kind of manage those different expectations with time zones right now?
00:13:03:17 - 00:13:40:00
Ernest Lee
Yeah. So most of our teams are still based in the Netherlands. so dealing with the six hour time difference for most of the year, except for four weeks where daylight savings runs it. but, my day personally starts very early, where I try to minimize the amount of lost hours between New York and Amsterdam. in addition to that, we try to document as much as possible so that there is some sort of, continuation of the workday and that that way it's not like stop start, stop, start.
00:13:40:02 - 00:14:08:21
Ernest Lee
And the way that we do that is varied. I mean, it's everything from slack to email to, you know, share Google Docs. Yeah. but having that combination of meetings and agenda items that you want to discuss in a synchronized way, combined with, more task oriented things that you could do asynchronously, is really the only way that we know how to make it work.
00:14:08:23 - 00:14:28:04
Rob Napoli
Yeah. No, I love that. And that's kind of what we do, too, right? I, I many days start early, except for kind of Tuesdays. Thursdays like my gym mornings, which everybody knows, like from T till 8:30 they don't work with me. but it's very much cadence there on that. We have our standing meetings. We have a lot of asynchronous task planning and utilizing tools.
00:14:28:04 - 00:14:48:11
Rob Napoli
I think with a right distribution is, yeah, that's doesn't there's something about being in a room with somebody does like drive all those things forward. But if you have the right set up, the distributed team, you can really do a lot of damage and really create good cadences. And I like how you say being disciplined. I think that is something that most humans we talk about discipline struggle with, especially when you have a team of sellers.
00:14:48:13 - 00:15:10:06
Rob Napoli
Right. sometimes that could be tough. So it's really cool to see how. And oh, that was kind of we bought it over that. Talking about the different culture differences in how I manage teams and what our hours look like. And, I think that's really cool, though, because there's something rewarding about building a brand. Right? Like being here in New York, having a small local team, but also a wider distributed team.
00:15:10:11 - 00:15:34:17
Rob Napoli
You know, for me in the Netherlands, I also have a couple people at right now in pack, which is a unique time zone to work with. We have a number of clients out there and how you manage that really makes it quite fun. Sometimes. many times very crazy, but for the most part, kind of fun to kind of be able to ebb and flow that and have those kind of conversations. To be honest, it's kind of cool.
00:15:34:19 - 00:16:10:23
Ernest Lee
Yeah. And I think it sort of stresses the importance of, finding colleagues to, to join you that really, are passionate about what they do because especially when you to enter into a global time zone. your day’s get very blurred. Right? And you have to be able to mix between, inconsistent schedules, work early mornings, maybe stop, take a break in the afternoon and then pick back up late for a different time zone.
00:16:11:05 - 00:16:27:23
Ernest Lee
But what it does require is not just discipline, but people who have the heart to be able to commit to that type of inconsistency. Yeah. Because people who just want to check the box and clock and clock out are probably not up for that task.
00:16:28:04 - 00:16:44:17
Rob Napoli
Yeah. It's very, when you work for a global company and a kind of a maneuverable company like citizen M is big, but it's double maneuvering and it's very, I like to think of citizen as vibe, gritty, kind of rebel a little bit like it takes a certain type of person to want to work in that space.
00:16:44:17 - 00:16:59:20
Rob Napoli
I mean, I always tell people and Omniboost, when they're looking to Omniboost here, it's a bit of a crazy train in a good way, right? Like we're all in the same direction. We're doing a lot of things, but you have to be able to move and shake a little bit. Like if you are looking for step one, do this.
00:16:59:20 - 00:17:26:07
Rob Napoli
Step two, do this. Step three, do this and you're done. You got to be creative, solutions oriented, be a problem solver. And also those are the type of people that you want like that that could think outside the box. So very interesting. and finding as you kind of manage your teams, how do you go about like do you struggle at all with building the team and talent attraction or how do you go about like evaluating talent and what does it mean to be a citizen?
00:17:26:09 - 00:17:33:05
Ernest Lee
Yeah. So I'd say that,
00:17:33:07 - 00:18:06:18
Ernest Lee
The main characteristic that we look for in, anyone that joins our company, whether, that means starting, at the property or, working in our support office, which is our central office, is just a basic human sort of, trait of being kind. Right. we feel that, yes, you could hire very, very smart people, but the moment that they're an asshole, it messes up everything, right?
00:18:06:20 - 00:18:27:19
Ernest Lee
because this, at the end of the day, is a team game, right? it will be different if we're playing basketball, where you can have a few stars carrying your weight. But this is very much, as you can appreciate, this is like American football. And this this requires, certain specialisms, but a lot of coordination, and a lot of, synchronization.
00:18:27:19 - 00:18:48:08
Ernest Lee
And in order to do that, there has to be like a level of empathy, trust, and a lot of times that's rooted in in just kindness. Right? People who are genuinely caring for other people and care what they do and care to wish, how that person can work with, themselves, I'd say from a more like intellectual level.
00:18:48:08 - 00:19:11:10
Ernest Lee
Something that I personally really look for is because of our size and where we are in our growth. I wouldn't say that we're a startup anymore. scary, right? Yeah. I always say that we're a teenager, right? We're kind of going through puberty a little bit. We're not a big company.
00:19:11:10 - 00:19:12:11
Rob Napoli
Great example. Yeah, we're.
00:19:12:11 - 00:19:28:20
Ernest Lee
Not a big company, but we're not mom and pop. What we're trying to do is, get the best of both worlds, keep the entrepreneurial and, risk tolerant type of mindset. but some of the best practices that the blue chip companies have.
00:19:28:22 - 00:19:50:02
Rob Napoli
That is a challenge, right? Where you go through, you want to keep what makes you dynamic and that little bit of like Wild West shoot from the hip, but also putting in like a bit of process of big companies and like that is a tough dynamic of going from like we do everything to like creating process that we can kind of control the chaos that all of that.
00:19:50:04 - 00:19:54:11
Rob Napoli
And that's a really unique, part of that, the company journey that you're going through.
00:19:54:15 - 00:20:14:15
Ernest Lee
Exactly. So this is where the curation of the type of people is really important. Right? And for me, some of the one of the biggest things that I look for is, it's hard to describe in one word, but what I sort of call knowing what to do when you don't know what to do, right? People who have like a flexible mental model.
00:20:14:18 - 00:20:37:03
Ernest Lee
Yeah. Very inquisitive, typically asking a ton of questions and they're able to, adapt to different environments. Right? Yeah. they may have subject matter expertise in one area, but you could throw them into something else and they'll figure a way out. And that's typically what's needed when you're going through these growth periods. Because oftentimes it's a very volatile world.
00:20:37:03 - 00:20:49:03
Ernest Lee
It's a very volatile, working environment. And oftentimes ambiguity can be, a big challenge towards people who are very one dimensional.
00:20:49:05 - 00:21:07:10
Rob Napoli
I love how you said, I love people that know what to do, and they don't know what to do. Right? That is a skill that is so hard to also figure out. Like, until you get it, you throw somebody in this situation, you don't find that out. the that other thing that I always like to look for is somebody is not afraid to say, I don't know.
00:21:07:11 - 00:21:26:19
Rob Napoli
Let me go figure it out. I'll get back to you. That is one skill that I always try to tease out of people is are you willing to say I don't know to me and get back to me and then follow up, because I think it's really easy to at times want to bullshit your way through versus like being okay with saying you know what?
00:21:26:21 - 00:21:43:21
Rob Napoli
And it sounds a great question, I'm going to get back to you because I'm gonna go make sure I find the right answer and bring some solutions to the table. So give me 24 hours and then follow up on that. Right. It's also kind of going back to not knowing what to do and knowing what to do when you don't know what to do, find a solution, come up with a way to find a next step or whatever.
00:21:43:23 - 00:21:56:08
Rob Napoli
And that's something that I resonate with and like fun, hard, crazy, exciting, exhausting all at the same time. As you manage that team and go through finding and building.
00:21:56:10 - 00:22:16:18
Ernest Lee
Yeah. And it's funny you say that. right. Because you know what I find, related to that of, finding people who can, have the intellectual honesty to say, hey, like, I don't know how to do this, right? Like, I don't know what to do, is you need a very, psychologically safe environment to do that, right?
00:22:16:18 - 00:22:54:20
Ernest Lee
I mean, you're running a global team, and the moment that they, are, nontransparent with you about an issue or performance or a struggle, that's the dangerous part, right? Because you don't have visibility to that. Yeah. And you can't help and so maintaining a culture where people feel like they can make a mistake. Yeah. And, be vulnerable enough as a team contributor or as a manager or leader of saying, hey, I also don't know, let's figure it out together.
00:22:54:22 - 00:23:01:02
Ernest Lee
is a very critical part of running what I see as a high performing team.
00:23:01:04 - 00:23:25:02
Rob Napoli
Yeah. No, I, I love that you share that. And it's something that resonates with me heavily. I would rather people make mistakes because they tried something and failed versus make mistakes by not doing right. Inaction is not acceptable. Like I'd rather you make a mistake doing some sort of action and figuring it out together. And it's something that resonates very heavily, with me, as I've got a global team right going through that.
00:23:25:02 - 00:23:47:15
Rob Napoli
And you have to have high level of transparency, trust and open communication for that to happen, which can be hard sometimes with time zone difference and whatever. Right. And so making sure to have those good conversations when you can and making sure to be, as you said, kind of emotionally intelligent and transparent with with each other, both from a leadership perspective, down, but also from the bottom up.
00:23:47:17 - 00:24:05:19
Rob Napoli
which is super cool. Yeah. So y'all opened in Austin? Yeah. Y'all opened in Rome. What's next for 2024? We're in Q2. What are some of the big things that you and your team are doing, or the companies that this is doing? for Q2 and what are you most excited for?
00:24:05:20 - 00:24:31:20
Ernest Lee
Yeah, so we're opening up, two more hotels this year. so this comes on the heels of a whirlwind end of 23, beginning of 24, where we opened up, Rome, Hotel of Menlo Park and, Austin, this summer will be opening up a hotel in South Beach, which will be our third in Miami and, our second in Boston in the back Bay neighborhood.
00:24:31:22 - 00:24:32:10
Rob Napoli
Nice.
00:24:32:12 - 00:24:36:03
Ernest Lee
Yeah. And that one will be our largest hotel in our entire portfolio.
00:24:36:08 - 00:24:36:21
Rob Napoli
Really?
00:24:37:01 - 00:25:02:02
Ernest Lee
Yeah. So that one is a big boy. And, the teams are very focused on making it successful and opening out of the gates strongly. in addition to that let's say an area that we're very focused on right now is, making sure that, we're leaned in heavily towards the business travel recovery. so business travel, continues to lag, pre-pandemic levels.
00:25:02:07 - 00:25:30:23
Ernest Lee
But, for a lot of reasons specifically the strength and sort of resurgence of corporate performance and corporate earnings, we're seeing a better recovery in 24 and making sure that we're getting our appropriate market share and continue to grow in that area, as well as scaling our membership program. we have a paid membership model, that we've grown to about 30,000 members.
00:25:31:01 - 00:25:50:15
Ernest Lee
we really geared towards, making, highly valuable experience for our members to make sure that they're not just getting travel benefits, but also social benefits and work benefits, and then ultimately figuring out a way to go from not just a B2C sort of option, but also a B2B offering.
00:25:50:17 - 00:26:11:03
Rob Napoli
That's exciting. It's a lot of stuff this year. and again, I love that you're coming back to all that. And I think there's technology enhancing it, but it's coming back to the customer experience. Right? Whether you're traveling for business pleasure or both, having a consistent customer experience with I mean, rewards is one of the hugest things, right?
00:26:11:05 - 00:26:44:13
Rob Napoli
we were talking pretty show about flying. so the Netherlands back and forth many times as we do, which airline points and whatnot. And, I think for hotel is like for me, very similar. I love my reward points. I love being able to lean into that and utilize that. And also the experience that comes with being a member, having a tier, working to those things, having that social benefits, the work benefits, the travel benefits, all the things like those matter, especially when you are traveling, let’s be honest as much as you and I do both for business and pleasure.
00:26:44:15 - 00:27:01:11
Rob Napoli
so that's really cool to hear that you're continuing to come in on the business travel side of things, where I think Citizen M, hotels are just meant for that. With the way the cafes are set up with the co-working spaces and whatnot. it's such a unique set up that I think opens a lot of doors, so that's cool.
00:27:01:13 - 00:27:21:05
Rob Napoli
So the last thing I want to kind of bring up as we're kind of coming close to time is I've really, love some of the marketing you've been posting and doing, and I know that you've been doing some brand activations with my friend Andrew Young, who, is absolutely amazing. But I'll say I've been using a lot of memes lately, from the internet to really kind of highlight your mission and your message.
00:27:21:05 - 00:27:38:00
Rob Napoli
And I and I absolutely love it. Tell me, where did the idea for leveraging kind of these social memes into the Citizen M and brand really came about? And talk to me a little about how it's going for you, because I think it's just absolutely hilarious. Like, I love some of the stuff you posted on LinkedIn. Little memes absolutely kill me every time.
00:27:38:02 - 00:28:00:05
Ernest Lee
Yeah. I mean, for me, I'm just goofing around, just to be honest. But I would say like B2B marketing on LinkedIn should not be too differentiated from B2C marketing, which is, if you look at like the pure foundation of like social media, why does it exist? Right? It's escapism. Right? It's a form of entertainment.
00:28:00:07 - 00:28:28:06
Ernest Lee
And the moment that people take it too seriously on LinkedIn or whatever, is where I say it's a very noisy space where people tune out and, I think if you apply it like some of the best principles from TikTok or Instagram, where you can focus on, the entertainment value of a post, then it might, I won't say guarantee, but it might lead to much more engagement and much more attention.
00:28:28:10 - 00:28:29:02
Ernest Lee
Yeah.
00:28:29:04 - 00:28:46:14
Rob Napoli
And also kind of, in my opinion, makes you resonate with the brand a little bit. Right? Like the Citizen M brand, the mentality being a citizen, being a global citizen. Right. And then a little bit of that aesthetic, the vibe there. I like to think of Citizen M a little rebellious in its own way, like the artwork and whatnot.
00:28:46:14 - 00:29:02:13
Rob Napoli
And so, like having those memes. I think, really also tie to the brand in a way that makes me feel more connected, not only to you, but the brand itself. So I really like how you do that from an activation standpoint, I agree. I mean, as somebody who was a brand consultant and wrote two books on.
00:29:02:15 - 00:29:07:14
Ernest Lee
Yeah, it definitely requires you not to take yourself too seriously.
00:29:07:16 - 00:29:33:00
Rob Napoli
That is very true. Very true. I absolutely love it. I work in hospitality. Work in this space. We travel a lot. So what is, I’ll let you choose? What is your best travel memory? What is the worst travel memory? Travel is so sentient, you remember those things. So I'll let you decide if you want to share your best or your worst travel story.
00:29:33:02 - 00:29:56:14
Ernest Lee
it's hard to say having very bad, travel memories, because I feel that if you have the opportunity to travel, it's always good, right? You're experiencing something new, even if you're something bad. Yeah, I'd say the best memories for me. I mean, I'm a hotel geek, so I have vivid memories of, a very distinctive hotel experiences.
00:29:56:16 - 00:30:21:11
Ernest Lee
and for me, one of my favorite hotels, that I've stayed at and also just led to a very memorable experience was, the Sofitel in Hanoi. Well, Vietnam obviously has this beautiful blend of not so nice, but French colonial culture with Asian and Eastern influences and the Sofitel there just really represents and resonates on all different levels.
00:30:21:13 - 00:30:45:09
Ernest Lee
between its distinct design, its service offering, its food, as well as just the overall vibe and ambiance, and it was just a very special, moment for me to spend, not just with my wife, but also with my parents and something that you really cherish. And then I'd say, Yeah, that, I don't know, it's always probably something around food. Bad food.
00:30:45:11 - 00:31:04:11
Rob Napoli
I resonate with that so much. I mean, I love that you shared that story. And such a cool story. Right. because travel is so special, to be able to share it with your wife and your parents and go do that trip. It's in a great hotel and have a great fusion of experiences and culture is something that I think is amazing and it's really easy.
00:31:04:12 - 00:31:21:05
Rob Napoli
And I with you, like when you're traveling like so much shit can go wrong from like I've missed flight connections and getting delayed. And at some point you're just like, you know what? Like it doesn't, it's not worth getting upset. You're still on this trip and you're still having an experience to a point where it's still frustrating.
00:31:21:06 - 00:31:35:13
Rob Napoli
Usually the things that I always get annoyed about is sometimes I have anxiety, I like to be places early, so like if things are late. And of course I lived in Italy for two years, so worst country to be on time.
00:31:35:13 - 00:31:36:01
Ernest Lee
Schedules? What schedules?
00:31:36:05 - 00:32:04:17
Rob Napoli
Exactly? Wait, coffee's at two. Yeah, it's 3:00. Yeah, I'm on my way in 15 minutes. Oh, okay. Or food like those are the two things that usually kind of got me the most, like, actual experiences. The thing is you're still somewhere doing something amazing and you have a story from it. And I think that is the most unique, kind of fun thing about travel, and it's why I love to do it so much, I mean, I love telling stories, so give me a, even if it's bad, right?
00:32:04:19 - 00:32:25:22
Rob Napoli
Like you want to hear. Okay. Funny story for you. So I was in Tunisia, right in the south part of the Netherlands, stayed at the City Hotel, and, I had a get in, get picked up for to go catch the train to Brussels to jump on my plane. And I was getting picked up at 530. Right. So I got up at 445 to take a shower.
00:32:26:00 - 00:32:48:09
Rob Napoli
And the way it was set up is the shower, the sliding door. And then there's like a back door open. And so I was taking a hot shower. I left the door open into the living room because at the back door open, and I just kind of like, yeah beautiful, like the wind blowing in and the cold, cool morning air with the hot shower felt amazing. Out of fucking nowhere, the fire alarm starts going off.
00:32:48:11 - 00:33:04:23
Rob Napoli
And so I'm like, what? So I was like, dry off really quick, put on my clothes run downstairs. Says I'm walking by all these rooms, to go like the fire exit out, mine is the only one that has like a light blinking on it. And only one of the two smoke alarms in my room are going off and I go downstairs. The guy's like, false alarm, false alarm.
00:33:04:23 - 00:33:28:02
Rob Napoli
So I went to go check out 20 minutes later, he's like, yeah, sometimes, like our fire alarms are different here. And so sometimes if you have a window open and you're running a hot shower, it can set it off. And I was like, so you're telling me I, I was the one that woke everybody up at 5 a.m. this morning, he is like, well, not saying, but yes, I was like, do not tell anybody.
00:33:28:04 - 00:33:40:06
Rob Napoli
So at breakfast usually starts at six. He had it open at 515. So everyone got to have breakfast early. So it's kind of a win win. But anyone in city Hotel, Tunisia a few weeks ago, I'm sorry for waking up at 5 a.m.. but that was my best.
00:33:40:08 - 00:33:43:04
Ernest Lee
What was that, a bad travel experience? Sounds like a good memory.
00:33:43:04 - 00:33:56:18
Rob Napoli
It was a fun memory. Like, I love it. And that's why I was kind of sharing, like it's something that people can get frustrated. It could be annoying, but at the same point, it's a good story to tell and I'll never forget that experience, or that kind of moment. And that's what I love so much about travel.
00:33:56:18 - 00:34:16:15
Rob Napoli
And that's where I think when hospitality center. Right. And you focus on the customer experience, any experience, good or bad, is memorable and you learn from it. And that's what's so cool about being in hospitality. So I love it. Ernest, where I can, if people want to get in touch with you, follow you for more, how do they get in touch with you?
00:34:16:17 - 00:34:25:13
Ernest Lee
Yeah. you could follow me on LinkedIn. You could shoot me an email. and, otherwise, ask Rob for my contact information, I love it.
00:34:25:13 - 00:34:48:15
Rob Napoli
Well, I will make sure to put your LinkedIn and the Citizen M hotel links in the show notes. If you want to connect us on LinkedIn, please do so. You want to connect with them, let me know. Ernest, I appreciate you hosting. Thanks for having us a really cool office here in Nomad. thanks for sharing the story, excited for what y'all have in 2024 and looking forward to, getting a few more badges on my, citizenship M map this year as I travel around.
00:34:48:15 - 00:34:50:07
Rob Napoli
So appreciate you my guy