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Welcome to Energy 101 with Julie McLelland and Jacob Stiller. Join us on our mission to help raise the world's energy IQ.
0:00 All right. Welcome back to Energy 101. Today, we have Bob Barbe, and we are going to talk about refracts, which is refracturing.
0:10 We already had a whole episode on fracking. So I guess they would help to watch that episode first as we get into like a more detailed industry. But we have the perfect man for the job. He's got so
0:25 much experience, almost 50 years of basically knowing what's in the ground and how to get it out. And I don't think there's any other better candidate than Bob. So thank you. You know, why don't
0:36 you kind of just talk about fracking in general, just kind of explain like I'm five years old, just a simple term. Everyone kind of understands drilling oil, gas, it's in the ground. But you
0:37 know,
0:50 and then we can go into refracking from there. Okay, sure. Sure. Yeah, fracking or hydraulic fracturing, this is a technical term for it, is basically
0:60 What you're doing is you're taking, most of the time, a relatively low permeability or low inflow reservoir that doesn't really produce much on its own, naturally. I mean, the days of drilling a
1:10 hole in the ground or jig clamping a bullet and having a gusher in his backyard, you know, those are long gone. You
1:17 have to stimulate it well, typically, when you do it now. And what happens is if you've got a very low flow inflow reservoir and you've got, say, a gas molecule that's 500 feet away from you,
1:29 that you
1:31 drill well and then you open it up and don't frack it. It might take three or four years for that gas molecule to get to the well bore. It's going to travel at a really slow rate and get there. But
1:43 what you do with the hydraulic fracture, what you're doing is put a conductive pathway out into the rock where the technical term is extending the well bore radius. But you're basically drilling a
1:53 very narrow horizontal well with this frack that's very narrow and very tall. and conductive. So it's basically the same as a horizontal well. It's the same concept as drilling a
2:04 very thin crack that goes out and then the gas molecules and all molecules can flow into that fracture and then come to the well bore. So now all they have to do is go travel that orders of feeder
2:14 yards or whatever to that crack and then they can be transported back to the reservoir in a higher conductivity. You've got very high permeability fractures in there that create that. So you're
2:25 basically reaching out and touching the hydrocarbons that would normally they would they would still come to the reservoir eventually to the well eventually but it just takes a long period of time.
2:34 Yeah. So organic shales like an organic shale it takes a hundred days for a gas molecule to move one meter in a hundred nano darcy rock. So that's that's how fast the hydrocarbons move in the shales
2:47 that are the most activity right now in the industry. So it's but with the hydraulic fracture though it doesn't have to move that far. You only want to move that one meter instead of
2:57 So it speeds up the process. I've never heard it explained in that way, like it was a very simple way, but just literally that it's right there in arms reach, but the fracking really helps you
3:08 touching it. Yeah, you're getting you reaching out and you're increasing the flowing surface area of the reservoir, basically, because it takes forever to produce out of just the normal well-born
3:17 at each well-born. When you extend that well-born radius out with fractures, it basically gets it easier for the hydrocarbons to reach the well-born. Perfect. Yeah So now we get into refracking.
3:28 And so I think from a layman's stance, you're like, Okay, we go on a whole, we drill oil, we get it all out, but we're not getting it all out, you know, hence why we can go back and refrack.
3:41 And you know, you can kind of introduce us into that. You know, back in December, we had you on, and we did an AMA on our platform, Collide. And there are a lot of people in there, and they
3:52 were excited to have you on and explain they asked a lot of technical questions. So if you're already up to par, you can watch that, but we're here to really learn from a beginner stance. But why
4:05 were all these people excited to hear you talk about refracking? Like, what is it? What, like, it doesn't sound that interesting. It's like, oh, I go back in there and I get more. It's like,
4:13 okay. Just do it again. Like, is this a new thing? Like, what is going on? Why are people lining up at the door to hear you talk about this stuff? Yo, in organic shells is where it really
4:21 started taking off as far as having capital investment from operators, you know, refracts have been around for a while or, well, actually there's two different types of what you might call a
4:31 refract. One is a true refractioning treatment where you have existing perforations, existing holes in the rock that you have been producing for a number of years and basically you pump back into
4:43 those perfs into the same reservoir. In fact, BKV is doing that in the Barnett. They've done almost 400 of them right so far.
4:53 refracts, or we call them pump and pray, or, you know, you're basically pumping a bunch of stuff down a hole without any really focus, it's just going in and you're plugging off purposes, you go
5:02 with little diverter balls or little, they've got these little, I call them cat toys, they're a little broke, broke, it's like twisted rope, you know, a lot of angry cats on the surface, these
5:12 jobs, you know, because their toys are being pumped down a little bit, little rope things will pump down to but they're trying to cut the flow off to the ones that have already taken fluid and
5:19 forced it into other ones like that. That is a refraction. That's a refraction treatment. You're actually redoing an initial frack job. Now, the other side of which most of the activity is not
5:29 really refracks. It's more re-completions. You're going back in and mechanically isolating with a steel casing or some kind of steel liner. You're running a brand new casing string into the well
5:40 bore cementing it in place, then going back in and shooting perforations where there was basically no perforations before. The initial wells in the Eagle for shale, for instance, had these take
5:52 points or call the corporation take points 130
5:56 feet apart. Okay, and they went down to maybe 100 and it wasn't it and they started doing this back in 2007 2008. By 2014 or so 15, they were down to like 40 or 50 feet on there. Well, Conoco
6:10 Phillips was kind of the pioneer in this. They went and did a one of their Eagleford Wells down in Duet County. They got the bright idea to take a 2014 completion. And then they twinned it with a
6:21 horizontal well with just a pressure monitor. And all they did was they went 70 feet away, paralleled the existing well bore and measured the reservoir pressure along this pressure away. And they
6:32 were on 50 foot cluster spacing, which was typical for 2014. What they found was that 85 of that rock in that cluster spacing interval was undrained. It was completely virgin pressure, brand new.
6:44 They were only draining 15 of that rock. And it's no coincidence that Shortly after that, people started going down below 40 feet, 30 feet, 20 feet. And there's also no coincidence that they're
6:55 the leading refract or recompletion operator in the Eagle foot right now. They got the secret sauce early on. They realized in 2016 that they were only draining a part of that reservoir. They were
7:05 not draining the entire reservoir. The whole industry had never done this. Nobody had ever done this before. Like I actually suggested it to Stadl when I was working on their project several years
7:14 earlier, they could all know it's too expensive to drill another well. You know, we're just going to keep drilling these six million dollar wells. And this is, why aren't you a little concerned
7:20 about what they're doing and what they're doing, oh, no, no, we do another work in their work. Because basically they were work, the wells were working better than the vertical wells. So the
7:28 initial point of reference for the horizontal wells where they were doing these fracks was vertical. So I mean, you might have a vertical bone springs well in New Mexico that comes in at, you know,
7:38 100 barrels a day or 150 barrels a day. They were doing these horizontal wells and getting 1, 000 barrels of that. You know, we had a home run, we had a home run. So the point of reference was
7:46 not they didn't raise the bar that high to start with So there really wasn't much attention given to what's actually going on out there. But Conoco got the, it gets credit for taking the initiative
7:57 to actually measure the pressure and they said, whoa, time out. This is, this is not, something's not right. So immediately after that, they went to seven and a half foot cluster spacing for a
8:06 few wells and they tried that and it really didn't, basically if you go from, even going from 15 to seven and a half, you got to double the number of clusters. Cause you, you only, what are,
8:15 what are clusters? What are clusters where you basically perforate a hole in the pipe and that's where the, that's where the fluid and prop and You don't want them to close cause then they're
8:24 getting the same hydrocarbons or right. That's a problem in the, in the, that's a problem now and on different level. But yeah, yeah, you, you, you typically 15 foot as a standard, is there
8:32 standard cluster spacing now in most of these new wells and then 25 to 30 on your. Is it on both sides, like force, is it on every side? Well, the ideal, the ideal, the best efficiency as far
8:44 as trying to make sure all of your clusters get treated, that the big thing about your engineering is you want to have high cluster efficiency. You want to have all of your clusters taking fluid.
8:53 Some of the early completions, even when you compound some of these early wells that had 100-foot cluster spacing, they weren't doing anything to try and ensure they had even flow. They would have
9:02 like three to five clusters, and they would not do any kind of special things to make sure they had good coverage. And so statistically, you're only getting about half your clusters open to start
9:12 with. So in order to have high cluster efficiency, what we found is the best perforation scheme for a horizontal well is maybe one hole or maybe two holes per cluster One is ideal, but two gives
9:23 you a little bit of profit distribution, but it's ideal, just one hole at the right top of the formation, top of the pipe. Okay. And then, but basically, and then go from there, but they found
9:34 that they could go to 15 feet, and most of your new wells have got 15 foot to 20 foot cluster spacing. And your refracts, you wanna go farther apart 'cause they have some other issues there we can
9:43 talk about later. So when you refract, you already have those,
9:51 clusters. And so you're refracking at a different spacing in between? No, you seal them off. You basically shut the entire production stream off. So one of the things that operators sometimes
9:56 have a problem with it, if you've got a relatively new well, it has a high producing value that you write those reserves off as soon as you run this, you set this job up. So you basically have to,
10:05 that's, it's a major problem in some areas, like the Marcella shale, where you've got a lot of what they call sorb gas. Some of the Marcella shale decline curves are almost a straight line I mean,
10:14 because over time the gas starts coming off the carriage and so you can have wells that were 12, 13 years old that have a present value of like2 million. You know, and, you know, let's, you know,
10:24 now they're refract candidates. You could probably make it worth4 or5 million, but you know, you're not taking that well offline. Those investors will have, but, you know, how do they, how do
10:34 they decide, like when to do it? Uh, in, in most areas, the areas that the Marcella is kind of an, is a exception. And South Texas, some of the gas there is, is similar to that where you have
10:44 water, what they call sorb gas. It makes your reserves. hard to make recap refracts hard, because they're so strong economically, every time that, you know, it's it's hard to justify taking a
10:54 million dollar right off, even you're going to get three or four million out of it. But so, but most of the time you're down, your recovery factors on these gas condensate wells should be about 65
11:06 with proper close cluster space and completion. And the average recovery factor from the pre 2017 wells is about 13. Well, a window, your average recovery factors are around four or five percent
11:20 typically from that vintage. Your total is going to be around 14 and you get done. So you're, you're basically capturing that delta and recovery factor between the current recovery and that 14.
11:29 Okay. So that's where the that's where the prize is the prizes and what's stranded there because people really on didn't realize what Conoco found out on that pilot was that you're not draining a lot.
11:39 Well, you know, I've always had a hard time with, you know, we've known for a long time that it takes 100 days for gas molecule, you know, that that rule of thumb was has been around since day
11:48 one. And yet people still put their costs 100 feet apart. You know, like, well, you know, we're gonna get a fracture going, you know? I mean, I was there, I was part of that initial deal. I
11:59 mean, I had a lot of questions. I kept asking Stattle management. You know, like, don't you guys want to know what these look like out in the far field? You know, it's maybe for a million
12:06 dollars or two million dollars, you can drill a well. And you're, they were spending like, you know, 50, 60 million dollars a month drilling these wells, you know, with a six million a pop.
12:13 And they were, had four or five, six rigs running They were just spend, spend, spend, and they were at 90 foot cluster spacing on these initial wells and then more sell us. So there's a lot of,
12:22 a lot of refract candidates up there now that I guess Chesapeake's got them now or, is it, is it risky, economically to refract? Oh, versus you pretty, or do you pretty much know, like, like
12:36 it's that, like you can tell, like, I'm going to get this much recovery if we do refract. Like it's risky if you don't do your homework. you go out there and just kind of hope for the best and
12:45 you know, just use rules of thumb on, you know, he adds an old well and wants to do it, you know. But if you give the proper characterization, which is kind of what we specialize in, you know,
12:54 shameless plug for what our stuff we do, go out and basically look at what was in the ground originally. The key part of a reef rack or recompletion is what was in the ground to start with. And the
13:05 only way you're going to get that's with petro physics and an integrated study where you're actually measuring the porosity, the poor volume in the rock, you're measuring the water saturation,
13:12 you're measuring the pathic thickness, doing some calculations to kind of turn that into what's the oil in place or gas in place. And if you know how much of that you've got out and then you know
13:21 how much you can get out with the proper recompletion treatment, then that delta is going to be your upside. If you know that delta, the risk of getting a poor candidate is very low. Now, there's
13:32 always mechanical risk. I mean, there's all you can always, you know, there's nothing is risk-free out there, but the risk profile for a
13:39 refraction or recompletion treatment. is really no different and probably even a little bit lower than a new well, 'cause you've already got the wall board there, a new well, you don't even know
13:47 if you can get it. You haven't got a TD yet, you know, it's not on the ground yet, you still gotta get it out there, put the pipe in it all right. There's some risk involved in that, granted,
13:55 you know, one in a thousand wells have problems, but still it's not zero, you know, so. Right. There is a risk profile, but it's really not any, it's not any more risk than you have on new
14:05 well. Now the difference in what now, there's actual risk and there's perceived risk I mean, if you're not really comfortable with the whole process of how the recompletions work and you don't
14:14 understand the physics, you don't understand a lot of the mechanics of it, you can perceive there's a lot more risk in that because people are doing a lot more new wells and they are refracts. So
14:22 it's, there's a perception of risk, but it's really not warranted by the actual statistics in the field that are out there. What is the process of like you figuring out what's down whole, like
14:34 what does that process look like of kind of, analyzing that well. Well, like an Eagleford, for instance, we've analyzed probably 600 open hole logs where we can measure. You have to have what's
14:45 called a triple combo. You have to have a density, neutron, and the gamma random resistivity logs. So your basic open hole logs. You don't need anything fancy then there's a lot of other options
14:53 to run for logs. That's usually the basic stuff. And you're estimating what the porosity is. You've got a lot of core data from before where you know what your volume is, what your gas volume or
15:04 volume is. You can estimate what's in the ground from the petro-physical analysis from the lower analysis. And then normally what I'll do is I'll do everyone that's unavailable and ideally you can
15:14 map that. If you want, I've done that with several operators where you map the numbers. Or if you've got four wells around your reef rack well and you know, they all are ex-barrels in place, well,
15:24 it's probably ex-divided by whatever for you. You bracket the wells, that's ideal, you know, where you see that you've got it covered. 'Cause it does change, it does change Yeah. So you got all
15:35 the information from - the last leaseholders or whatever, right? Like they did seismic, they did wire line, coring, whatever, then they went down here and they got everything they wanted. You
15:46 get all of that information from them or you're purchasing it from now? Well, we're just using mostly it's public data. Mostly you're using public open-hole log data that's acquired, that's most
15:54 of it. Seismic's really not too, not too, I mean, it's important to know where your faults are and all that and be good to have that. But if you don't have that, it's still not gonna, you know,
16:04 the seismic is mostly for trying to determine what's your sub-compartment. You see one well that's making, it's gonna make 100, 000 barrels and you got one next to it's a 50, 000 barrels. You
16:11 know there's probably a fault there in between there. So be good to know where that fault is when you're designing your job. But other than that, you really don't need anything but the petrophysics
16:19 and the reservoir properties. You have to know, there's formulas for how much is in the ground versus how much is coming out. It's called volume factors. You have to know those and those are
16:29 constantly changing. You go for, you go for, you go from dry gas all the way up to heavy oil. So it's got a huge spectrum and it changes mile by mile. So you have to measure that, estimate that
16:39 volume factor pretty much almost on a well-by-well basis. It changes so rapidly, but. Yeah, there's like, I feel like there's some kind of paradox where you, the newer the wells are that you're
16:51 refracking, the more information you have. But if you go to older wells, there's like, there's a good chance they didn't get as much hydrocarbons out as they could have because of technology and
17:03 maybe it wasn't even fracked originally. So like, what is like the sweet spot? Like, what years literally are you like aiming for? Like, if a well is like too old or like that's too risky, it's
17:13 too new, it's not worth it. It's more of a, more of a too recent, the more recent the well is, the harder it is to recomplete it. The, for two reasons, one is for the original, we were
17:23 talking about the current value of the well. And more recent wells typically have, you know, a much higher present value. They're much harder to take offline without causing angst among the
17:33 investors and working with your donors. We did one in West Texas. We had a study. I was involved. One of the other operators out there was involved where Conoco had drilled a well in 2018, and it
17:45 was right on the lease line. They were going to put six wells in the section right next to it. What we've seen is if you don't re-complete that old well, even if it's 2018, but it's depleted way
17:58 down, as long as if it's below original reservoir pressure, what happens is you cause a lot of mechanical problems on the closer wells in that pad. You can actually have your frack be asymmetric
18:07 where you have an entire your entire frack job can go towards that completed well and the distal side is completely undrained. So they they were stuck because they couldn't refrack it. Well, not
18:18 just because Conoco was the operator, they weren't the operator, they were independent out of middle. But the one of the big problems was that your clusters were about 15 to 20 feet apart. And
18:29 when you do a re-completion treatment or any even a new completion treatment. I hope it is not getting too much in the weeds, but you basically will have your fracture initiates longitudinally along
18:39 the wellboard. It's not really well understood. No matter where your holes are, your fracture initiates on the top of the wellboard, and it basically initiates this way. And then once it gets out
18:48 past the near wellboard flips and goes in whatever direction the maximum stress is. You know, Eagle Fords, it's more the northwest, southeast, depending on where you are, it kind of follows the
18:57 coast, perpendicular to the coastline. So, but basically that, those, those longitudinal fractures are about 10 feet long. So, if you have a 15-foot cluster spacing on a horse on a recompletion
19:09 well on a recom,
19:11 you don't have isolation. You're actually in the old perforation, but even though you're cemented and you've got, you've got your, you know, you've got isolation in around the wellboard that
19:21 longitudinal fractures can, and we're seeing a lot of that now where people have kind of overshot. The original problem with reef racks was 130 to 100 foot spacing back in 2009 and 10 and 11 like
19:31 that and that kind of ratcheted it down and 2016, there was a step change. It was almost like the bat signal went out. I mean, because Conoco did the one research, and I don't even think they
19:40 published it then, but they started changing their stuff right away. And I guess everybody was looking at Conoco and saying, Well, let's do what Conoco's doing. Whatever reason around July of '16,
19:50 which is about the time they came up with their study, all of a sudden everybody went from 50-foot cost of spacing down to 30-foot cost of spacing, like the entire industry everywhere. It was the
19:59 weirdest thing I've ever seen because most of the time it takes forever for stuff like that to change. It was like boom. So if you say July of '16, anything before that's probably 45-50 feet or
20:08 more, after that it's probably much tighter than that. Would you consider that the refrack resolution?
20:17 That was the eye opening. Yeah, that was the moment of awareness. There's like the show revolution was like 2008 or whatever, 2009. And then it sounds like you reference 2016, 2017 era a lot.
20:27 So it seems to be like that kind of turning point. That's when the 2017 was the first, where the first, actually there was a paper published in 2009 on vertical well refracts. I'm very familiar
20:38 with this as I wrote it, but basically I've done a lot of work with the mechanical, I've done a lot of work with rock mechanics and fracturing. What I was seeing in these vertical wells was you
20:49 would see three and four zones in a vertical well that were completed altogether Operators tended to take shortcuts with fracks then either. Like ideally you want to have a separate frack on a
20:59 vertical well in each sand, each zone. Well, they were putting three and four zones together and we started doing a lot of diagnostics on those wells and found out that only one of those three or
21:07 four sands were producing. The rest of them had just basically just been lightly stimulated. So what we recommended back then was running mechanical liners in there, casing behind there and doing a
21:17 brand new completion was in 2009.
21:21 Now, they didn't start doing it in the shales until 2017. Halberd was involved with the Chesapeake, I think on some of there's a wild horse on some of their work. They did QEP, some of the other
21:31 operators in the Haynesville, they started doing this mechanical isolation with submitting 3 12 for forage flush joint casing inside, they were doing mechanical isolation. That happened about the
21:43 same time, 'cause before then, people were doing primarily bullheads, which are pumping praise and a typical bullhead treatment on an organic shale. Occasionally, I had an article on oil and gas
21:52 investor a couple of years ago where we had a case study on this where basically they had a well that was gonna make about 95, 000 barrels over in the Eagleford in 2014.
22:02 Well, this was 2016. They went in and did a bullhead treatment on it where they basically did a pumping pray and they increased the EUR, estimated all the recovery of the well to about 130, 000
22:12 barrels. So the recovery factor went from about 25 to
22:18 34. Okay, with that bullhead. two years later in 2018, and did a winer refract. They did a mechanical isolation, and they increased the total recovery to about 460, 000 barrels, and the
22:30 recovery factor to 14. So that's the difference between mechanical isolation and that's what the process of that, like you have mechanical isolation. You have to go in and make sure the well-bores
22:42 cleaned out. You don't want any junk in there, 'cause you're gonna be sticking a pipe in there with a very tight clearance in there. Your new pipe goes in there You can either do what they call an
22:50 expandable liner, which is probably the most efficient way, where it goes in, you run this pipe in there hole and, then you pull a mandrel through there, and it actually expands it out, like a
22:59 python, small, and a pig. You can see it - Colin used to do that. He used to run that. Okay, yeah. Running, he was gonna expand, expendable casing. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, exactly.
23:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah, expandable pipe. That's the way to do it now. Unfortunately, most people don't use that. There's a lot of reasons we'll get into, But it's good, mostly goofy, mostly this,
23:18 you know, mostly the. Fofu factor. Is it really expensive? Not really. Not so much. It is. It is. It isn't. It isn't. It costs to put a mechanically isolated, say you've got a 5200 foot
23:33 liner, which is your average median length or median length for you horizontal refract in the eagle from shale, you know, because most of your new wells now are 10, 000, 15, 000 feet there.
23:43 Back then before 2017, about 5, 000 5, 000 foot lateral, basically with a cemented liner, which you'll put four inch flush joint, which basically means you don't have any, any collars on here.
23:54 So just a smooth outside, four inches of diameter. You slide that inside the 48 inch, whatever ID of the five and a half inch, slide that in there, then you cement that. Well, the expandable
24:04 liner goes in there and it comes out and it expands internally on that. But the four inch flush joint would be about350,
24:12 000 for that and then the expandable is about half a million. But you also, with the expandable though, you can have more clusters 'cause you can pump a higher rates and rate, more rate means you
24:23 can have more clusters. You have so many barrels a minute per cluster that you have to pump like six to eight usually, little in your minimum. So if you add another 10 barrels a minute or 15
24:31 barrels a minute of that pump rate with the expandable, you can actually add two more clusters. So you cut your stage count down by a quarter with the expandable. So it costs more upfront, but you
24:41 know, it's a pay me now, pay me a little bit. So it's, you know, you pick your poison. It actually, you actually make, you're actually come out ahead with the expandable financially. It's
24:50 cheaper to frack a well with an expandable than this one cemented with the all-in cost at the end of the day. But, you know, it's, people don't want to try it. They get the po-poof factor.
24:59 Poof-poof. Fear of fouling up, I think. Yeah.
25:06 Let me give, let me get back on like just starting level. So how, what percent of like hydrocarbons are we getting out of a well? Like, it's not a hundred percent.
25:34 before to refract a typical oil. Well, saying the Eagle for her Permian with wide cluster spacing early on early in the play as typically 3 to 5 of your of the oil in place is recoverable. And then
25:34 with a properly executed recompletion treatment, it can be as high as 14 to 15 and 14 in your shells and 15 like in your bone springs and your Joe. If it has matrix permeability, which, you know,
25:41 again, these these organic shells are about 100 nano darsies. And but yeah, whereas a say a wolf camp well in West Texas or a wolf camp, you know, I say, well, it's a bone springs, a bone
25:52 springs well is like 20, 000 nano darsies. It's 002 millidarsies, but it's 20, 000 nano darsies. So you're 20, 000 nano darsies rock is going to actually drain part of the rock outside of the
26:02 fracture, whereas your organic shells are only going to drain about 10 feet at the most, plus or minus, whereas you're draining a lot wider. Some of these, or some of these, well, like the bone
26:11 springs into Mexico and Jill Mill and things like that, we're actually being drilled on 20 to 40 acre spacing vertically, economically. So it does it can get the oil and gas in the ground without
26:20 having to have a lot of stages. So that one, you can probably get 15 with
26:27 a refrack, whereas you only get about 14, 'cause you can't get your clusters close enough together to get that full 15. You still got gaps, even with the really tight cluster spacing now. So 15
26:38 is like a great number, right? Pretty cool, yeah. From someone who doesn't understand anything, you're like, well, why is it 100? Like, can you explain to me, why don't you suck 100 of the
26:48 hydrocarbons out of the ground? Well, it mostly capillary forces and you know, the force of binding the fluids to the rock and why it's the same everywhere. I've always wondered about this. It
26:59 seems like no matter where I go in the world, if it's a solution gas drive reservoir, you know, it's basically, which is the most common type of reservoir out there. You're looking at about a 15
27:08 recovery factor and that doesn't really change that much. It's weird, you think that high and low-perm would have different, I haven't seen that much difference. Theoretically, you're higher
27:17 perimeters with can have higher numbers, but that's kind of the thing. And then you can increase that with, I say, a water flood, or if you have what's called a water drive, or you have water
27:27 below, you're just actually driving your hydrocarbons, those are about 30. Oh, wow. And if you do something like EOR with a CO2 or something like that, or some kind of miscible gas top, you can
27:38 get it up to higher than that. So that there is, you can improve it And the most efficient, so I got what they call a fire flood, we actually combust down hole and you can get close to 100 there,
27:50 but you're probably looking at maybe a maximum of 50 to 60 with enhanced oil recovery and all that, but you gotta do something other than just producing the well. You have to start ultra, you have
28:00 to start actually changing the drive mechanism or changing the fluids in situ to be able to get more than that. Yeah, it's obviously more nuanced than that, but just thinking from a layman's term,
28:12 we're all just picturing like a balloon underground and you suck it out like a straw and it's like literally nothing's, it's not like that at all. But yeah, I mean, is there a future of like
28:22 getting a higher percentage with refracking or is this kind of like your peak? I would feel like that's always the goals. Well, the big, the big 800 pound gorilla now in terms of going forward to
28:33 these walls like that Conoco well talked about in the Delaware Basin. You know, where you've got after 2017, the good news is that your clusters are closer together and you're getting higher
28:41 recovery factors. Well, the bad news is your clusters are closer together and they're hard to fraction. So really the only way you're gonna be able to stimulate those wells, like if going back,
28:50 if we could redo that the deal with the Conoco well and the offset operator, ideally that's a perfect candidate for enhanced oil recovery top stuff where you know pumping miscible gas down there or
28:60 even CO2 or something. 'Cause you need something to pressurize that well board. And if you use something
29:06 like a miscible gas or CO2, You can actually improve your production on that well work. because pressure is pressure. Doesn't really matter where the pressure comes from. Traditionally, you want
29:15 to refract that with a fluid-based frack and just put it in the zipper pattern. You've got five wells, you know, you've got six wells. You just add that well to your zipper and do it sequentially.
29:23 You're probably familiar with zippers. You know, basically you do one at a time in the stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four. So that idea, but I think you're gonna have a lot of
29:31 opportunities where a lot of these wells, in fact, some of the best refract candidates we've seen are these newer wells that have poor completions We did a big study in one field over on the
29:42 Eagleford where we had brand new wells that had 15 to 18 foot cluster spacing in the well bore that basically used diverter pods alone. They didn't try to do what they call extreme limited entry.
29:57 There's this, your extreme limited entry is when you have a lot higher pressure in the well bore that you do in the formation, usually 2, 000 to 2, 500 pounds. If you
30:05 generate about a 2, 500 pound pressure drop between the wallboard and the.
30:10 formation, again, by limiting the number of holes and increasing the rate, it's a function of rate and number of holes, you can get 100 of your clusters open. Well, if you don't do that, these
30:19 guys only did 200 pounds instead of 2, 000 pounds. They had only half their perps open. Their recovery factor was 75 on a brand new wells. Now the offset, we had five refracts in that field,
30:31 they averaged 135 because what happens is when you draw your reservoir pressure down on a reservoir, your frack will propagate in the maximum stress direction because you've got a maximum minimum
30:40 stress direction at all times, you know, one's higher than the other and the ego for it is a very low contrast because it's all normal faults that are moving away from each other. What you get is
30:50 when you start draining that maximum stress direction where the frack went to start with, you know, it's kind of hard to get your arms around because usually things don't go to the path of highest
30:59 resistance, path of least resistance. When you initiate a fracture with fluid, you pump fluid into the rock, it opens to the
31:06 and the maximum stress direction just happens to be 90 degrees to that. That's the only reason. It doesn't go into the, it's not, you're not fighting uphill, you know, the stuff rolls downhill
31:15 out, you know, rule of thumb works there too, you know. But so basically what you, but the upshot of that is you've now depleted that along that fracture. So that is now lower. And you only
31:26 have to lower your reservoir pressure by, I say, 1, 000 pounds or so. And all of a sudden your maximum in those stress directions slip. So you can actually get, instead of a planar fracture,
31:35 which is what you're getting on a new well, you get more of a shotgun. Like in the Barnett, when they first started doing microsizemic of the Barnett early on, Barnett is basically isotropic.
31:44 It's, it's, the stresses are balanced. There really is no preferred direction. When they would do the slick water jobs, they would see 2, 000 foot wide fracks who have worked well. They're
31:53 going out 2, 000 feet. You know, just this huge pattern. I think that's what you're seeing in the Eagleford when you have this pressure depletion. But the new wells that in this comparison, they
32:02 were only getting 7 12 of the oil on the ground
32:07 they didn't use proper diversion techniques, so. Yeah, speaking of candidates and these basins, like it's not, you're saying, it sounds like the Marcellus and the Eagleford are the best basins
32:15 to refract in. Pretty much anywhere, anywhere where you've got straight and hydrocarbons is really good. Bockens big, the
32:21 Permian is the 800 pound gorilla. People would ask me people are why, years for not refracting the Permian? Are they not? Well, not of any kind of scale. It's kind of hit or miss. And the
32:31 reason they're not doing this 'cause they're not doing it That's the focus. How do you talk to people from there? And they just, yeah, they're just like, I'm trying, but they, I can't. I've
32:40 had more people in my refract schools from the Permian than anywhere else. Everybody keeps talking about it. But like that one particular case study we talked about with that operator, that not
32:51 being able to frack that conical well costs the operator a million barrels of hydrocarbons. Just from the mechanical aspects is what happened was you had six wells on the slots, six little
33:02 well We're gonna use 880 spacing. There were six wells on that section and the conical well was right on the lease line in the next section over. They decided instead of putting a well right next to
33:12 the conical, they would skip a location. So they moved a path. They only put five wells in there instead of six, okay? Well, these are 70 barrels per lateral foot estimated all to recover wells.
33:21 So a 10, 000 foot lateral is gonna make 700, 000 barrels of boil. They just subtracted 700, 000 barrels from their recoverable hydrocarbons by doing that, by not drawing that well, okay? So the
33:33 next thing was what the next offset that which would have been the second order offset and said the first order now was the first order was the closest one to the conical well. It lost 30 barrels a
33:43 foot because of the asymmetric fracture that went to the conical depletion. So basically not being able to refract that well in the Delaware Basin, which isn't a Permian where they don't refract,
33:53 not being able to refract that well cost them almost a million barrels of production. So it's just for that alone, even if the refract made zero You have actually about 40 to 50 higher oil in place
34:06 per well in the Permian than to do an Eagleford on the average. It's got a much bigger target. So it's just a matter of time before people finally figure it out. Yeah, it's so interesting because
34:16 I feel like everyone's talking about refracking. I didn't know that they weren't doing that. Not wholesale. I mean, Permian probably maybe a couple dozen at the most and I've really never kept up
34:27 with those. That's so crazy. Bock is pretty busy The Bockin's busy, Eagleford's busy, Barnette's huge right now. That's all, there's no new activity in the Barnette. BKV is doing all refracts.
34:37 They bought the Devon and the Exammo or
34:41 XTO
34:43 property. That's in Oklahoma. One, four worth basis. Okay. Yeah, DFW. Yeah, I mean, what do you know about the same trend, but like internationally or maybe off shore? Is that a refracking
34:51 popular there? Can you refrack offshore? Usually when you're fracking a well offshore, you're doing it primarily always high permeability. You want to refract. to basically, when you have
35:04 unconsolidated sands and you typically would do what they call a gravel pack where you run in a screen assembly and then you pump, you just pump, propping around the outside of it to try and keep
35:13 the formation collapsing because unconsolidated formation is basically, if you don't have some kind of sand control on there, they will collapse on you and just ruin the well. So what they found
35:22 back in the early '90s is you could go in and do actually do a fracture treatments on those two, then other real high concentration, you know, really, I mean, you might go 10, 12, 14 pounds per
35:31 gallon and you know, just, you put a really short fat frack on those wells. They tend to produce a lot longer. You have fewer sand production problems. They, you know, it's a lot of times
35:41 you're in the, in offshore, you'll have these. I did one offshore production log where I had a Darcy permeability on the top where we tested it in half a Darcy permeability in the next zone down.
35:51 We ran a production log past that. We did a natural completion, no frack. All the flow was coming out of the Darcy rock. Half the reservoir wasn't producing. Oh, wow. The higher permeability of
35:60 producing. Well, if you did a frack there, you would connect the entire day, you establish vertical permeability. So it's mostly mechanical reasons that you do it off shore. You're not really
36:07 trying to reach out and touch the hydrocarbons and you don't, you know, your cluster spacing and all that stuff doesn't really, you know, figure into it. It's a different deal because those wells
36:16 will flow without a frack, but so it's probably not really. Interesting. But land pretty much anywhere. Any formation that's got horizontal wells or even vertical wells is a good refract candidate
36:27 If everyone in a Permian isn't too eager to jump on refracking, then it kind of helps
36:33 the debate of if we're hitting peak oil or not. We're going back in the ground and refracking existing wells. It's like, Oh, no, there must be running out of room and hydrocarbons and stuff.
36:44 What is your take on that? Are we refracking to?
36:49 like get all the juice out or is it because there's no other options? Like what's really happening? It's a huge low hanging fruit in the industry right now. Like the numbers I did a study in South
36:57 Texas about 150 some wells and looked at, looked at the refract potential in the Eagleford and there's about 15, 000 total active wells that are refract candidates and we're now looking at inactive
37:08 wells. Because we just recently, I was involved with the lobbying organization, Texas Intermittent Producers Royalty Association. We helped sponsor a bill at the state legislature to get an
37:17 exemption in severance tax for refracts up to a certain period of time, if the wells are inactive. So there's an incentive for going back to inactive wells now. We're now looking at a large number
37:26 of inactive wells, so there's probably maybe 18, 000 total wells in that. I took the ones that were out of that group out of the 15, 000 and pulled out the ones that had the best candidates, so
37:37 the ones that have wider well spacings, you know, stacked on top of each other. And out of that third, I ran the numbers on what would happen if you went ahead and develop these pads and came out
37:46 to about43 billion in incremental revenue. that's right now, sitting in the ground, that's not gonna come out. I mean - It's crazy. You're one inventory, I mean, everybody's buying, the whole
37:57 thing, reflux versus buying other companies for inventory, I never understood that, 'cause you're basically just changing pockets with the money, you're not adding any value by buying a company,
38:06 you're adding inventory, but you're not adding any inventory to industry, you're adding it to your personal company, you're not really increasing the reserve base, whereas if you put that money
38:14 into recompletions, it makes a lot more sense, you're actually creating wealth instead of just redistributing it, you know, so. Yeah, we're just scratching the surface. And nobody is really
38:23 doing it. What we're pushing now is trying to raise money to do these all legacy well pads. 'Cause right now nobody's doing that. Everybody's going in and they'll do a parent well with child wells
38:35 around it. That's 99 of the refracts are for that purpose. And it's a good reason, it's economic. But none of the operators are out there trying to actively exploit these all legacy wells. SM
38:47 made a presentation in their comp a couple of weeks ago, and they're showing all this Austin chalk activity. And you look at their map and it's like completely covered with Eagleford wells. There's
38:56 no Eagleford wells are in there in their plans because they've drilled every location they have. And so they're going up to the chalk and go, you know, what are you doing that for? Why did you
39:06 just refract the way you got, you know, because you only get that particular area was in our study. And they're averaging about 13 recovery factor out of 65. So there's a huge amount of gas and
39:16 oil in the ground. So when you refract, how long does it keep producing? Like, huh, as long as you're, well, you're, you're, you're basically about, well, you got the, one thing that's
39:25 interesting along those lines is if you, we have this, your decline curves have a certain coefficient called a beef factor, which it tells you, and if it's the same reservoir pressure, same
39:33 hydrocarbons and that your, your, your, your beef factor from the original completion should be the same on the refract. It's almost always the same. Okay. So you're getting an original decline
39:41 because you're fracking brand new rock. You're fracking, you're fracking the same rock that that you got before was just missed. Right. So if your new wells are producing for 30 years, which is a
39:50 good number, then your refracts will produce for 30 years more. So you start with a brand new reservoir, basically. So it's starting to clock over. You know, a 20 year old well that gets
39:58 refracked is gonna produce for another 30, yeah. A couple vocabulary words came up that, you know, I'm the guy who edits all the stuff here So. we've had you on a few times and watch your other
40:10 interviews you've done. And I don't think we've covered this, just basic vocabulary There's legacy wells and then there's parent child wells. So can you kind of like sum that up real quick and then
40:20 maybe what does it have to do with refracting? Sure, a legacy well, to me is just an old well. I mean, really, and really ideally, as far as refract candidates go, it's an old well prior to
40:29 2017. It's probably a good cut off. So any well drill before 2017, I would call a legacy well. And then your most of your activity now is, in fact, something like the county, Webb County, for
40:40 instance, down in South Texas where they almost completely drilled up everything, that's where SMs properties are. There are very few refracts. There's only about two or three refracts in that
40:50 entire county because there's no parent child. When you put in a new pad of all new wells or all child wells, then you have to protect the child well with a refract on the parent well that's nearby.
41:01 So, but if you don't have any new wells going in which they don't have spaces for, they don't have, now, Carn's County, do what county between those two? There's probably 300 refracts. But then
41:10 you go just down to the web and Dimit County down here, almost no refracts at all because nobody's doing parent wells. Almost all the activity now is on the new well pad, offset wells, not your
41:24 legacy wells. But like really explain the parent child thing. Like, 'cause I'm picturing, I don't even understand what that is. It's like, is a parent well like the first well and the child
41:32 wells are the ones around it or? Parent well is really, I mean, it's kind of a, I mean, it's, I guess there's different terms they throw around for it, you know? Basically, a pair of wells,
41:41 the original wells, say for instance, they went out there and when the originally first developing the Eagle Ford or any of these reservoirs, you would drill one well to hold the lease. And then
41:49 basically you have to establish production on that lease and whatever that lease was, one section, two sections, whatever, you would hold that lease by production. And then, so basically almost
41:57 all the activity prior to, I mean, I don't know when they started doing pad dealing probably the average number of wells on a pad now from prior to 2017 is three. So it's between two and four most
42:08 of the time of the P-50s around three wells per pad. Now the average is more like six or seven. You almost all new wells are fully developing those pads. So, you know, but you would originally go
42:19 out and you establish production in an area, hold the lease, then you come back in later and do the child wells around it. And that's when you have to refract the parent well when you have the
42:28 child wells nearby because that's how they lost that million barrels in the dole, for example. Why do you have to refract it so they don't run into each other or what? Well, if you have a, and
42:36 say basically you have a pressure sink over here. and you have a frack here. Well, you've got your reservoir that you're fracking is that wide, but if you have a precious sink over here and you
42:47 frack it, you lose half that reservoir. You lose 40 of your recovery on that well. But the first order well loses statistically about 40 of the EUR. And then the second order, it loses about 20.
42:58 We've got a couple studies that show that. So you're, you know, in that one there, they moved the first order was now the second order was now the first order when they pulled that well out of the
43:06 slot and that one actually lost, looks like 35, 30 or so It is so wild to me how technical this industry is, like the engineering that goes, like I find it fascinating and you're making me wanna
43:21 like go to school and be a petroleum engineer 'cause I find it just fascinating what's going on underground, but. That reminded me the whole parent child thing we were just talking about. It's like,
43:31 you know, it's all in one pad, right? And you ever go to a site, it's like, they're really wide, there's room for the little like, camps and the site and then the storage, whatever. But on
43:42 that same pad, they had drilled like just like 100 feet that way. What I learned is that the drilling pads, they have their own hydraulics that can lift up and walk on the pad, right? And I mean,
43:54 that's crazy. Yeah. Like they can lift up like whatever, like a million tons of metal and I saw a video of that recently. It was really cool. The robotics are insane. Yeah, speed it up It's a
44:07 very slow walking process. Yeah, it's amazing. Some of these, they'll drill, I mean, I don't know what the record is, but they can drill any number of wells off the same pad. They're going,
44:15 well, you said it went from like three to like seven. And I'm assuming that technology helped it do that, right? Probably. Oh, yeah. I mean, the advances in technology on drilling side are
44:24 phenomenal. I mean, the rate of time it takes to drill a little now is like just a fraction of what it used to. I mean, it's wrapping up with one more question about refracking. You brought up
44:34 tapping into inactive wells And I was kind of wondering, like - is refracking kind of reviving inactive wells? Because what we're ultimately trying to do is make money, make profit, and not lose
44:47 money. So is it risky to go into inactive wells, and are you literally reviving them? Well, you have to run the economics on it, pretty much. 'Cause what happens is on the oil resin where you've
44:58 got about 660 spacing, you get about 330 foot of drainage on either side. So if you have all wells that are 660 spaced in a field, they're all refract candidates mechanically. And depending on
45:07 where they got enough oil in place or not, but the problem is what the average well spacing can say, Dewitt County right now is 347 feet, not 660. So a lot of these shell wells are stacked on top
45:20 of each other drainage-wise. So sometimes if you've got your wells too close together, no matter how old they are, no matter how much holes in the ground, you've already drained a lot of those
45:27 reservoir. You've already drained a lot of that. So a lot of these older wells that are not refract candidates because they're too close together. But assuming they're wide enough apart, Longer
45:35 laterals make better refract candidates 'cause it's all about oil in place per acre, times the number of acres and more acres with more length. And then basically the spacing, the well spacing,
45:45 the oil in place and then the length, all three of those go together. And what you do is you combine that and run an economic model on it and see what the present value operator I'm working with
45:54 right now. We just got funding to do a bunch of refracts and they're shooting for like three, three and a half to one return on that. But a lot of the wells I've looked at, all weekend I looked at
46:02 about 100 of them and probably 80 of them didn't make that mainly because their wells are too close together. They're looking at the sweet spot in the carnage to the wet area. They've already, the
46:12 oil and places so high that they've got their wells too close together. Now it's economic on a pad level 'cause the optimum number of wells for a pad is what's maximizes in that present value or the
46:22 value of that pad. That's not the net present value and maximization of each well. You're probably only getting 60 of the maximum NPV on each well. But by having more wells, you actually increase
46:32 the NPV of the pad. It's just not, it's not dumb to go in with more wells in there, but it makes it hard to refract. So with that caveat though, virtually every inactive well is worthy of being
46:44 looked at for a refract. Technically it's a candidate, but it may not be economic. You may have already recovered the, if your spacing is too close and all that, you know, because it costs about,
46:54 my formula is about a million and a half dollars fixed cost, plus about500 a foot for your refract cost. That typically gets you pretty close to the FEs. So you have to tack that on there and it's
47:03 got to pay that out, you know, typically about two and a half, three to ones each other than anyone. So that's the only restrictions he's got on it. That was a very technical episode we just had
47:13 just now. My mind is blown. Yeah, I mean, we have a whole episode on fracturing. Of course, the dedicated refract episode is going to go even more into weeds. But I mean, at least I understand
47:26 it. I don't think I could show grandma this to be like, Hey, grandma, this is what refracting is
47:32 That was great, I really enjoyed that. And getting the translated version of what you did with John in December, 'cause that was just a bunch of jargon to me.
47:41 Yeah, that's all your questions. It is very detailed. So I'm gonna show a clip here just to kind of wrap things up. And I just wanna get into more of the like state and interest public like of
47:53 fracking, energy, yada yada, you know, I always think that's funny. Maybe get farmed some good clips out of this So actually I shared this video over the weekend. I knew you were gonna do this.
48:03 My girlfriend sent me this. And so it's a DJ who's like doing a DJ set and they're just playing fracking in the background. And you know, it's probably like, oh, you know, anti-establishment,
48:19 you know, oh, they're polluting the planet, whatever. And you know, that's good. They can do whatever cause they want. But the funny thing about this video is that,
48:29 What kind of fracking would you call this, Bob?
48:33 Blowing up the ground on the surface.
48:37 Got me. Are you gonna want a wheel fracking like that? They used to do nitro fracks back in the 30s and 40s, yeah, but, but. It's not black and white, it's colored. Gonna say, yeah. So, you
48:50 know, it's a glaring reminder that like, people still do not understand what the hell we're doing, what's turning on our lights, you know, we've heard this whole spiel What is your spiel with the
49:02 society's energy IQ, and what do they think of - Their view of fracking. They hate fracking so much. What's gonna happen when I hear about refracking and all this? What do you think is the public
49:12 perception of all this? Not that, you know, you're putting my tin foil hat on and the helicopters are coming, but - Please do. The first
49:20 article that was written about fracking being dangerous was in 2008. And it was written by Gazprom, the Russian gas company The second article was similar. They took their name off. It was a
49:33 source provided this. They really the gas problem realized after they made that first note that they were exposing their hand So they are actively involving during Vietnam the the Soviets spent I
49:45 mean a billion dollars on propaganda to try it under minor society with the race relations and the whole nine yards and all this stuff That was and and they their budgets even though it's now FSB not
49:55 KGB Today 1984 that one of the one of the Yuri abesman off the brush and colonel Defected and says we have a program in place here now. We're not going to beat you militarily We're going to beat you
50:07 on the social front. We're going to be we're going to undermine your society with all this stuff And they're clearly one undermine our own gas business because it's direct threat to theirs I mean,
50:14 it's they we are head-to-head competitors for them So they they they you initially sponsored openly the first anti-fracking Nobody didn't even written bad stories about fracking at all. There were no
50:25 articles before that about fracking first article was written by them All the other articles If they didn't write them, they should have. If I was over there writing checks for their company, I'd
50:34 be doing it. I mean, it's in their best interest to put our business out of business. And even the movie Gasland, I mean, there's a lot of speculation on where the funding came from that. I mean,
50:42 there's a lot of forces out there in the world that are against our industry. And that's really where the root cause of all this came from. There was nothing in the press or nothing in the media
50:51 prior to that. And it's strangely coincidental that they're spending money on undermining our society. We know that for a fact The best way to document that, that's a fact. But if they're not
51:02 spending it on this, they're stupid, they should be doing it. I mean, if I would do that, if I were them, I would definitely be undermining our business. And that's the best way to do it.
51:11 Cause none of this makes any sense. There's no, I mean, when I worked on the Chesapeake project with Statol, we had a meeting up there in Oklahoma City and they said, yeah, we got a suit from
51:22 one of the offset operators, three miles away that from our location that their faucets on fire. And so they blame fracking for that, you know. I was like, well, you know, three miles away,
51:31 you know. And then, and also that they've been drilling through these shallow, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of shallow gas up there. COVID methane stuff that they've been producing gas in their
51:40 water for years. I mean, yeah, it's been a problem forever. But they somehow got that attributed to the, the chest peak was trying to be getting sued by an operator that was miles away from their
51:50 nearest well that they had on that. None of it makes any sense because it's not none of it's been documented. Yeah, it's documented to cause any harm And I would argue that we care about the safety
52:01 of the environment in our working space more than anyone else claims. Like we want our people safe. We don't want to pollute the air. Like I just think it's crazy. A lot of the oil gas produced
52:14 around the world is produced under horrible environmental conditions and no respect for the environment. I mean,
52:20 China's putting the coal plant out every week now. You know, and yet we're trying to. We'll find an operator if one MCF a day comes out of his wellhead, you know, he's going to have a heavy fine
52:31 from the government, you know, yeah, they're putting stuff in the air willy-nilly and right
52:37 and we're going to need oil. I mean, every conference I've been to has the same number. 80 of the world's energy needs are going to be met by hydrocarbons forever. I mean, your demand is going to
52:46 increase, your solar is going to increase when all these other things are going to increase But right now, about 80 is going to be from the oil and gas. Do you think we'll ever run out of oil and
52:55 gas? Well, I mean, it's,
52:60 I think there's economic, there's economics involved. I mean, we have a, we have a, probably a 300 year supply of natural gas in North America. Now, to produce that last few MCF, you might
53:10 have to spend20 an MCF, but I mean, right now it's, you know, most of it's economically So it's a matter of economics. It's there. It's in the ground.
53:19 Gas more than oil. I think we've got, we've got, we have a huge supply of natural gas here in North America Yeah. Yeah. Is there a way that we can even know how much oil we still have to produce?
53:32 Oh yeah, yeah, the stuff I do for refractory volume metrics. If you know the porosity of the poor volume of the rock, you know, the saturation, the thickness and all that, you
53:40 know, volume metric estimates of it. Okay. Yeah, they always do it for the headlines. I mean, I did the whole video on the beat-a-loo in Australia. They're saying there's 300 years of natural
53:49 gas there, just in the beat-a-loo alone. And in that video, I used a clip of Obama saying that we have 100 years of natural gas. And I was back in like 2010 or something during a shell revolution.
54:00 So they love whipping out those numbers, saying like, oh, we've got centuries of gas and oil, and it's all we need. Well, even right now, there are very few rigs running in South Texas in the
54:12 Eagle for gas window. There's almost zero rigs running in West Texas in the Wolf camp gas. The whole western half of Colberson County is all gas. And there's no rigs running there in West Texas in
54:22 the Delaware a prolific basin with all multiple stackpays. a lot of the gas windows out there, there are very few rigs, there are zero rigs running in the barnette. I mean, I might be one, but I
54:31 mean, the BKV isn't doing all refracts. So I mean, it's like, you got a lot of these areas that don't even have gas rigs running right now. Most of the gas coming out of Permian is coming out of
54:40 associated gas. That's what's filling up the pipelines there. It's not, there are very few dedicated gas wells in the Permian that don't have a significant oil component to it. But yet you're
54:49 filling up a pipeline every, every year, they're just putting, they're adding five and a half BCF of takeaway cap capability in the Permian right now, come online next year. Since we operate some
54:59 wells out there on the Wauhaus system, we're very pleased to see that because right now we can't sell our gas. But it's, you know, we're not even trying half the time on the gas. We actually put
55:10 an effort into it, we could really get a home run there. And then Marcellus has got a huge supply as well. But it's all takeaway constraint because they can't get pipelines in the ground.
55:19 Save that for another episode. All right, Bob, thanks for coming on. Yeah, thank you so much. This is so fun.