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Domenico and Derek talk about resolving the core conflict.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to the Essential Dynamics podcast. I'm your host, Derek Hudson. Essential Dynamics is a framework I've been developing that helps us think through tricky situations. And in this podcast, we test the concepts of essential dynamics through deep conversations with interesting people. In this season, season three, we're focusing on helping leaders of organizations, really to help them get unstuck to get them clear on what their challenges and opportunities are, and how to proceed so they can move forward on their quest.
Derek:I'm, excited today to welcome back, Domenico Lapore to the podcast. Domenico is a deep thinker on these things. I've learned a tremendous amount from him already in conversations, including the last podcast that we had. And I'm excited to have you back. I didn't, I didn't bore you in the last in the last podcast, Dominico.
Domenico:No, it was a pleasure.
Derek:So so if if I I think we should jump right in because there's still lots to talk about. And Dominico shared some of his views about how clarity and language, helps us help us think through the challenges that we have and when we're and when we're not clear and when we're limited, we get stuck. And so I was asking him about how you get unstuck. And, Domenico and his partners in his organization have helped all kinds of companies do this to the point where they've documented a process that works. And, Dominico, you were talking about it always starts with, the with the critical the core conflict.
Domenico:That's right. Core conflict.
Derek:Okay. And I'm going to talk about that. But, I'm just gonna throw in my essential dynamics to sort of validate, you know, where I see that fitting. So, the way I think about the quest is there's people on a journey to accomplish a very specific purpose. That's the epic quest.
Derek:And in each of those, elements, they face opposition. In fact, there's no story if there's no opposition. And, and the hero of a quest, typically if it's a story that's any kind of interesting, it's not just good versus evil. You have choices to make, hard choices to make. And, so the way I've characterized that is, is that for purpose x, there's a purpose y.
Derek:And, I think that's the same basis as the core flick. I need to this. I also need to do that. I can't see how I can do them both, or I can't do them both at the same time. And there are a number of authors, including Goldratt, who've written about, you know, maybe what the fundamental nature of, of that conflict is.
Derek:I know your partner, Angela Montgomery has some words that she uses. I've seen some from some psychologists. And so I think there's something very fundamental to the fact that we get into a core conflict. And you've got a way of thinking that helps you resolve the core conflict or deal with it. So so maybe you could give us an example of an organization's core conflict Mhmm.
Derek:And then start from there on how how this all works.
Domenico:Okay. The raw material to build the core conflict, is provided by the myriad of undesirable effects that any organization experience. So, if we wanna be, extremely practical, the way it works is to sit, the decision maker of an organization around the table and, ask them, to enlist to list, all the elements of their reality, that they would like to do without. These elements are all connected with one another, and it's always possible within hours to make people see, around the table how all these elements can be summarized in one statement. This statement represents the generalization of the current reality of the organization.
Domenico:This, current reality, which is the synthesis of everything that is not right, is in conflict with the we we could call in a sort of colorful way the Garden of Eden. So what we would actually like to have instead. And these two positions, are blatantly in conflict because they build that way. Now once you have created that tension between what is not working in your reality versus, what you would like to have in your reality, then the next question is to ask yourself, on one side, why you're continuing to cope, why you accept, why you deal, why you comply with this state of reality you don't like on one side? And on the other side, what is the fundamental need that you're trying to address in desiring this Garden of Eden?
Domenico:So these two, the separation between what you perceive being your reality in conflict with the reality you wouldn't that you would want, is separated by the needs that originated these conflicting positions. And both of them, are necessary, to pursue any actually, they define any realistic goal that the organization, want or can achieve. So unlike many many practices that recommend companies to start with the goal, in TOC, the goal is derived by ascertaining what are the deeply rooted needs that the company is trying to satisfy. And in order to satisfy these needs, the company fall into what we call at this stage a core conflict. Now a core conflict exists because we view these two conflicting positions as unavoidable because we make a set of assumptions.
Domenico:So let me be clear. Both the reality that we're experiencing formulated as a synthesis of undesirable effects And the Garden of Eden that we'd like to be in, their perceptions their perceptions of reality. K? Reality, the way we experience, reality, the way we would like to experience. So there is no obstacles there to start uttering, to start listening, to start pronouncing all the mental models that make us believe that we cannot escape that situation.
Derek:Can I stop you there and and maybe try one Mhmm? That you can, you know, dismiss or or work from or propose a better one. So, let's say you're in an organization that, that, that might be a little tired. And so let's say it's a professional organization, you know, maybe it's people like my colleagues, it's an accounting firm. And they, over time, have lost sight of the fact that the people that work there, aren't just, you know, resources to use in a production system are actually people.
Derek:And, and they're, they're they've underpaid and not treated the people that well. And therefore, the people don't perform very well. And so the organization isn't reaching its potential, which isn't doesn't make it a fun place to work. And so you have disengaged people producing a poor product. And so that's a that's a self reinforcing reality.
Derek:And you have to get yourself out of that reality and into a place where engaged people are producing a great product. But if you ask the people, how can you how to do that? They are they're stuck. And they and they can't see how they could, for example, treat people better and pay people better on a business model that's not producing any profit. Is that is that, is that relevant, or can you top that?
Domenico:I mean, you you are listed you you are, you are listing a series of undesirable effects that people experience, as a result of being mistreated, as a result of being underpaid, as a result to being overworked. So we could summarize all these undesirable effects as, our work environment is not conducive to, our work environment. It is not gratifying. It's not conducive to more thinking, it's not conducive. We we can easily summarize in one's these undesirable effects.
Domenico:But you're talking about, an environment which has been severely damaged spiritually and behaviorally. Okay? So, all these predicaments in a work environment, and I'm trying to be as practical as possible here. They're all the result, that of, a very misunderstood, concept on how you generate profit in a company. So if we if we look at the needs that, protect are protected by the two conflicting position, one always deals with the fears, with control, with the cost, with the individual performance, with inwardness.
Domenico:And the other one always deals with the performance, deals with vision, deals with expansion. Okay? A philosopher would say that one deals with the, imminence, and the other one deals with transcendence.
Derek:Right.
Domenico:These two fundamental means constantly lead to conflicting positions. That in the case of the company that you're mentioning, they've got to do with poor, management of people. This is clearly in conflict with people that are happy and productive. And, what keeps this situation, stuck? You know, the the the reason why the situation is stuck is because there are a series of mental models which are connected with how this organization could pursue its goal that keep the the the the company stuck, to keep the situation stuck.
Domenico:And frankly, you know, if I'd seen less than 300 times a situation like this, I could be hesitant, but I'm not anymore. So, when a situation is deteriorated so much at spiritual and psychological level, it's because there is a fundamental lack of clarity on what we're trying to pursue and what are, the ways to pursue it. In such a damaged situation, the leader, before embarking into a process like this, should first take a hard look at what you're really trying to accomplish in life, before embarking into a process with an organization that has to be ready to, pour their art out in order to address the issue. Because, when something like this happens, it's lack of leadership. And lack of leadership always stem from lack of vision and lack of theory on how to lead your company to success.
Derek:There's there's a lot there. If I if I was to simplify, one of the things you said, because I've seen it this way written probably by Goldratt himself. The core conflict is between stability and growth.
Domenico:But Both are the two needs.
Derek:Yes. In this case, stability, is also risk aversion, cost control, and and things which you make can make an assumption saying, well, if we spend this money, then we won't make profit. But that assumption could be incorrect, because if you don't spend the money, you won't make profit, because you'll have a bad product, because your product depends on your people's engagement. So, there's that. And then the other thing, I just I just Yeah.
Derek:I think I've got time to to kind of share this. When I was, developing essential dynamics, and essential dynamics was, how does Derek think about business problems? Because I've been thinking about business problems, big and small, for my whole career. I seem to have a consistent approach. I just didn't know what it was.
Derek:And I start documenting it, and I put in the purpose, path, and the people. I said at one point, well, they're each of these three needs a goal. And, I know that the goal for the path size, for the process, is flow. That seems to make sense to me. Like you don't eliminate the constraint, but you need flow.
Derek:And you sometimes you talk about synchronization, but things have to throughput has to move through the system. On the purpose side, I thought that there needs to be some kind of integration of purpose between purpose X and purpose Y. But I got to the people side, and, my initial reaction was, well, I think that it's just love. And I wrote up, sketched this out, and I sent it to my panel of advisors, who are my, my children and their spouses, who are accomplished in various professions. And they came back to me, a couple of them came back and said, I, you know, that love thing, like, I think I got it, but I don't know if that's gonna fly in the business world.
Derek:So I kind of took it off, but I keep seeing it. It keeps coming. It keeps showing up again. And you talked about, like a spiritual deficit. And, and then, you know, maybe there's a leadership problem.
Derek:Would you agree then that if you really wanna engage people, you've gotta get to their hearts?
Domenico:Then there has been a recent publication called HyperScanning, conducted by group of neurologists that sampled two groups, of leaders in the way they communicate with their subordinates. On one side, you had the participative leadership, engaging, leaders that would constantly ask for input from base subordinates. On the others, you add conventional, hierarchical, command and control kind of guys. And, indeed, the scanning of what happens in the brain and what synapses are activated in the two cases, and they clearly noticed how the former environment would show a much wider, much brighter, much more intense in neuronal activity than the other one. We are our synopsis with the good piece of any shrink.
Domenico:We are our synopsis. So if we don't nurture, and use our synopsis, we lose them. And what this experiment help proving is that the more we are command and control, the more we are unloving, unparticipative, un, un. Okay? The the least are, synapses that are activated will shut down.
Domenico:And with shutting down, we lose any ability to conceive anything, beyond the conventional pattern that we follow every day. So a long, long, convoluted answer Yeah. To your question is that, you know, as my wife, who's British, would say, love is all we need, and all we need is love, you know, quoting The Beatles.
Derek:The Beatles. Yeah. Right. That that's awesome. So, let me go back.
Derek:We'll try and finish this, this thought off here. So you reveal the core conflict, and now we're challenging assumptions. And, I suspect that your model of challenging assumptions, like you said, you've done this so many times, you can, in conversation, hear someone say something and say, wait. There's an implicit assumption behind what you just said. What is it?
Derek:And then you start to reveal them. Is that right?
Domenico:Right. I mean, it is the it it's, it's a very structured conversation. So once the conflicting positions have been highlighted with the needs and the goal, then the question becomes, why do we see perceived reality, and desired reality in conflict? And there are a whole bunch of assumptions that emerge naturally from that. Okay?
Domenico:These assumptions, they fall into mainly three categories, which are, policy and measurements, behaviors, and measurement system. So, the reason why we are stuck, it's because we make a series of obsolete assumptions on how we should measure our people, how should we behave in the company, how should we measure our performances. These are the three fundamental categories of assumptions that we make. Once you spell them out, for every individual company, no matter what they say, they all go back to these three main categories.
Derek:Mhmm.
Domenico:The three main categories can be injected by solutions, which are obviously tailor made on the organization, but they all belong to the realm of reducing variation, increase synchronization, increase people's involvement, generate value through your offer, and institute a PDCA cycle. What I'm trying to say is that, while, this process, it's life enhancing and, drags you onto a territory of discovery of your thought patterns, which is beneficial in and of itself. The end result is guaranteed because the solution is already there, and, all you need to do is just to embrace it. So which said in a different way, what we've been doing, especially in the last ten years, is to create the synaptic, situation to make people see why they should be doing things in a certain way.
Derek:So it's, it's still hard. And, it's it's hard because the changing those patterns of thinking and those assumptions is is hard.
Domenico:But you can see the end in sight.
Derek:Right.
Domenico:So it's not is we're we're not asking anybody to get on a journey where the destination is not clear. Our job 90% of our job is to make sure that people feel comfortable emotionally on this path. And that's why we use we talked about the cloud, but the thinking processes are there are several thinking processes that support the development, not just of the solution, but also of how the solution will generate desired results. So it's a very, comprehensive, you know, very all encompassing, kind of approach where, all the elements that I seem to understand from essential dynamics, are brought together, in a with a an epistemological rigor that is the result of, many, many decades of, of study and, I would say, many thousands of years of consolidated wisdom.
Derek:Sure. Sure. Standing on the shoulders of giants as Goldratt says.
Domenico:Exactly. Exactly. So, so, guiding people through the adoption of, elements of knowledge that will immediately change the way they compete. It's defeat. It's the, the the task.
Domenico:It's the, emotionally draining exercise that, in the last thirty years, with my partners, we have engaged the companies with. And it's, it's a a sort of a huddle, you know, emotional huddle that we make in order to move them out of the ditch, that more often than not, they are in and in which they keep digging.
Derek:And Can can you tell me what it feels like when the light goes on for someone?
Domenico:Oh, it's exhilarating. It's, for the vast majority is exhilarating, but we we witness constantly for many others, you know, the fear of, of of stepping out of themselves. So I don't know whether you've seen the film Moneyball, you know, the the film with Brad Pitt about the the one ace. Yeah.
Derek:Baseball statistics?
Domenico:The statistics. When when, at the the last scene of the movie, when Brad Pitt goes to meet the, CEO of the Red Sox, is he says, people resist change not because they don't understand the need for it, but it's because what is in play there is their livelihood, is who they are, is what they feel, represents them, in the world, what they stand for. So any major change that jeopardizes that status that they feel they have, it's it's something that they're gonna reject. So, and that's the challenge of any entrepreneur. And that's why we only deal with entrepreneur because if in a company, the boss is sold and everybody else is not, we can achieve results.
Domenico:If everybody else is sold, but not the CEO, we don't move one step.
Derek:That that is that's one aspect of what you call the human constraint.
Domenico:Human constraint. That's right. Exactly. So it's, it's a very, very, I know it sounds terrible, but it's a very top down exercise. With top down, I don't mean hierarchical.
Domenico:Right. Means in a company, the number of people who are responsible for the results of the company, they're very few. Doctor Deming is adamant about it. 96% of the problems in a company are generated in the boardroom. Mhmm.
Domenico:Are generated right at the top. So if the people at the top don't accept a different way of looking at reality for whatever reason, there's gonna be no change. That's why I've always been incredibly, skeptical about all these agile exercise, this six sigma exercise, of this, you know, lean exercise, which try to bring to the shop floor problems that should be addressed in the boardroom.
Derek:Yes. I I under I understand that. So, my, vast base of listeners is is fairly broad. One of the one of the things I'm doing in season three is focusing more on organizations and businesses, but I think there are principles that people can apply in their own lives and in the situations that they're in. Mhmm.
Derek:And so I'm gonna give it some thought. You have a specific kind of client that you work with because you know that that's where you can be effective. And so maybe the advice to people who aren't aren't the, the top leader in organization is, get your boss to listen to this podcast and and meet with, Dominico or Derek and have start having a conversation.
Domenico:Yes. I mean, I would recommend to anybody who is not at the top of an organization to take a hard look at their own core conflict and understand why they keep staying in an organ because as you mentioned before, Goldratt identified two fundamental needs, for every human being in every organization. One is, connected with stability, and the other one is connected with satisfaction. And sometimes these two needs are, addressed asymmetrically. So people seem to be happy to sacrifice on the shrine of stability any shred of satisfaction they might have from their work.
Domenico:And if they keep doing that, in time, they will wither as humans. So, my recommendation to anybody who pays attention to your podcast is take a hard look. What are your drivers in life? What is the shape that stability has to take in your life? And what is the shape, that satisfaction should take?
Domenico:And then take a look at what you do and if and how what you do addresses both. If it doesn't, it's time to change.
Derek:Let's change something, and we can talk about how to how to do that. You've got a model for that. So, Domenico, thank you very much, And thanks for pulling that down to the level of individual at the end, because I I think that these true principles apply all over human endeavor. So and that and that's why we talk about the quest. So thanks very much for coming on.
Derek:I I need to digest this and, and hope we can talk again in the future because this has been fantastic. So I I think you told me people can find you at your website. Yeah. Intelligent
Domenico:They can find they can find me through you. I mean Yeah.
Derek:Intelligentmanagement.ws for you, getunconstrained.com for me. We're both on LinkedIn as well. Right. And we look forward to hearing comments about what we're what we're doing here. Brand, thanks very much for, keeping us on the air.
Derek:And until next time, I'm Derek Hudson, and please consider your quest.