Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Hosted by Toby Cryns and Kurt von Ahnen, the Agency Action Podcast (Part of the WP Minute Podcast Network) dives into the real-world ups and downs of running a WordPress agency. Each week, Toby and Kurt share open, honest conversations about the challenges and victories that come with building client relationships, pricing projects, finding the right tools, and growing a sustainable business.
Whether you’re just launching your agency or refining your systems, you’ll get practical insights from two agency owners who live it every day—along with stories that remind you you’re not alone in this wild WordPress world of global teams, AI disruption, and constant change.
Follow the show and explore more at TheWPMinute.com/podcasts
Toby Cryns (00:00)
Welcome to another episode of Agency Action starring Kurt Von Ahnen and myself, Toby Cryns Kurt, I wanted to ask you a question. Got a client recently ⁓ hire another agency to replace me. hypothetically, that actually it happens every now and then, but hypothetically, when that happens, how do you handle that?
Kurt Von Ahnen (00:18)
boy, I think I am starting to change my methodologies on handling this. You know, as our agency's grown over time, we've become experts in certain spaces, right? And then people ask us, you know, we're we we're we're frequently the expert, rarely the paycheck anymore, right? Like everybody wants ideas from us or concepts, and then they look at the budget and they go, well, I think I could find, you know, my nephews, aunts, cousins, sister that would do it cheaper, right?
But here's my problem, Toby, is people go that route. You know, they say, I'm just gonna hire someone that's more budget-friendly. And then that budget-friendly person doesn't have the same expertise. And so then the client comes back and says, they're having problems executing on the platform, or they're having issues, you know, with ⁓ FTP access or or whatever. And it's like, well, at what level do you think I'm gonna teach them? That's so that's where my that's where my thing is. And so
I used to be really flexible. I used to be really gracious. I used to say, Hey, you know, I understand, you know, you're still our client. Let's let's go ahead and let's get, you know, all parties on a Zoom call and let's problem solve this together. But I don't do that anymore. N now I say things more like, Well, if you're if your other team needs training, we are available for training. We we can help train them and get them up to speed if that's what you require.
Toby Cryns (01:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's really good to set boundaries once someone's leaving, just in general, like like they no longer are paying for the access that they used to have. And I think like as a developer or agency owner, you want to wanna maintain the integrity of your business and yourself and the projects that are paid for. there's also this weird like transitional period where like you want to be helpful and so that boundary is can be
It's kind of unique maybe for each client based on the relationship. I had one project a decade or so ago where I should note, when it comes to like WordPress stuff, I'm really good. I'm really experienced and they hired some agency, I don't even know if it was an agency, but it was some guy and and he clearly didn't know what he was doing because they were trying to migrate the site to another server. And I told them, I go
Kurt Von Ahnen (02:14)
Some guy.
Toby Cryns (02:21)
We were hosted on ⁓ a major hosting provider that we're all aware of that has unique server things happening. And they in they install must-use plugins in WordPress that do stuff on their server. They have specific object caching that they add files. And I knew from experience that if you try to migrate all the files and the database to like some other host, it's gonna break. It's it's just not gonna work. It's not that it will break, it's just like you need to clean it up a little bit.
And I know this from experience. I actually told them, I go, look, you're gonna have trouble migrating this for these reasons. They tried it anyway, and then they were telling the you know, the person that hired them, they're like, this guy ruined the install. Like he did not, you know, he like intentionally sabotage us. And I'm just like, people, like I'm trying to help you.
Kurt Von Ahnen (03:07)
Yeah.
Yeah. I don't have the time to s intentionally sabotage your efforts. ⁓ it it's it's and I think in this age of AI and so much like false confidence now that people seem to be exhibiting, you know, they're all like, Well, I'll just ask Claude, Claude'll tell me. It's like, ⁓ well, I still think you don't know what you're doing. And these things keep coming up and it and it's it's getting more and more frequent now.
Toby Cryns (03:12)
Right.
Kurt Von Ahnen (03:32)
And so I I find it like really, really interesting. ⁓ a great example is like this Lifter LMS world that I'm in. You know, Lifter is a ⁓ respected learning management system software, right? And you add that to your WordPress site and you can do courses and but it does a ton of things. I do a lot with Lifter. I I work directly for Lifter and then people want to hire me as the expert for Lifter, which makes total sense. And then we scope out a project and I give them the quote and they go, Ooh, okay, well, I'm gonna try so and so. Okay, great. Ha you know.
My blessings. Have a nice day. And then they come back to me and they go, well, you know, events isn't working, or we couldn't get Zoom to connect, or we could I'm okay. Well, that was included with the package that I quoted you. Yeah, but we th that that that okay, yeah, but that was included with the package that I quoted you. What do you think I'm gonna do for you now? It it's a very weird space to be in.
Toby Cryns (04:15)
I think
well and i i i this what's possible happened, I'm sure you've experienced in that case, maybe maybe, maybe not, but like a lot of times people will use your proposal as leverage, or the other you know, they'll share it with the other person and they'll like undercut you. And this is the sort of thing that happens and there's a great episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where
JB Smoob is he they they there's like a leak in the house. They hire a repairman to come and and the guy's like, It'll cost you ten thousand dollars to repair your roof. And th they bring it, they pay JV JB Smoob to come in and be Come on, seriously ten grand? And the guy's Well I could fix it for two hundred and they're like, Okay, yeah, great. So like everybody's patting him on the the the crux of the story at the end is all the stuff you know, the leak ⁓ causes the whole house to be destroyed and like
Because they didn't pay the the right amount you know, the the amount that's needed.
Kurt Von Ahnen (05:05)
Yeah. It it's so unique. And it and it we're we're I think we're in a very weird spot now. And and it's not just a WordPress thing, it's an everything thing where we have leveraged so much flexibility and and so many options into these packages. Like, like I think of like I love simple. I love simple, right? So someone will I need to run some courses on the internet. Okay, great. Boom, we can do that. Bob's your uncle, man. So load that up and let's go.
But then they always come back and go, ⁓ well, I wanted this to do this, and I want this to automatically do that. And I want this message to get sent when this thing gets clicked, and you're like, okay, well, now you are every sentence you speak adds complexity. You know, that this is not what you said. You said you wanted to host a course. The course is done. Now you want, you know, all kinds of things. And I think, especially in this age of AI and this this again, I say false confidence, people are assuming everything's easy.
Or that everything just works with everything. Like like people will try to ⁓ use uncanny automator or WP fusion or something to make some magic happen between two things that realistically shouldn't work together. Like you and I would look at that and go, why do you even want that to do that? That does whatever. You know, and then and they try to do something and you're sitting there going, I don't even understand what they're trying to do. And then it doesn't work and they're angry about it.
Toby Cryns (06:21)
Yeah. I think a lot of times like those complex things and I w I worked with a nonprofit here who had a extreme has, continues to have a an extremely complex workflow. And we rebuilt that workflow in WordPress because it existed in a antiquated PHP environment, but the whole time I'm like
Why? Why are we do like let's just simplify it. Yes, it'll be change, it'll be you know, add a little overhead here and reduce overhead there, but like I'm just like there's an easier way to do this and you know.
Kurt Von Ahnen (06:52)
Yeah.
Well, and it's always some some lady in the office, you know, some stakeholder that's like, I always have this go to this spreadsheet or this CSV file or goes into this shared drive, or you know, this data goes into this payment system for tax reasons. And you're like, Well, why are you still using that tax software? It hasn't been supported in 18 years. well, it's just what Marge likes. It's like because Marge likes it, we have to walk our technology back twenty years.
Toby Cryns (07:01)
Yeah, that's mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kurt Von Ahnen (07:20)
⁓ it it is some we we're in some weird spaces right now, man, and there's just been a a lot of ⁓ a lot of angst.
Toby Cryns (07:27)
Yeah. There's also a thing like when a when a client leaves, you wanna be very professional. And so there's some balance between like providing a boundary that's professional and respects the integrity of the project. And I think maybe the line that we're drawing in terms of this conversation, like where do we draw that conversation? It's probably sharing expertise, like specific learnings and expertise, because that's what the provider
you know, the eight other agencies should be providing. ⁓ so I always like the trick is like to understand those you know, as the per you know, as a provider that's they're leaving, like be really c I think it's okay to be really firm about the boundary and say, hey, I'm willing to provide backups, let's say, or like, you know, provide access to the server that you're paying for, but beyond that, I'm drawing a line and happy to help. It's gonna cost X amount per month and, you know, or per per hour, however we want to do it.
Kurt Von Ahnen (07:53)
Yeah.
Well d so okay, it's one thing if someone's leaving, but sometimes there's reasons why they why reasons why they're leaving or or other things. Like sometimes I call that flaking, right? Like how quickly do you think you're able to adjust if somebody flakes or acts stupid? So on one hand, we could say the customer flakes and just does something weird. They think they're gonna do a a blue host deal for five ninety-five a month, and you're like, well, I I'm not gonna compete on that, have a nice day, right?
⁓ or it could be one of those other things we described, but it could be like flaking in your own staff. Like someone promised to get have something done by Tuesday, it's Thursday, and you still don't have Tuesday's work. And when you call them or email them, they act like, no big deal, I'll have it to you next Friday, right? how how quickly can you adjust? Yeah, and this is like a personal question, like I'm asking you, like how quickly do you find yourself being able to adjust.
When like what you have planned doesn't work out. Like people flake, customer or staff, and and you gotta circle the wagons.
Toby Cryns (09:15)
It's a real headache, ⁓ 'cause it it adds a burden to the day. Like now I need to like unwind this project, figure out where we're at, where we're going. Whatever the plan was has now exploded. And I don't know that like they're gonna be back tomorrow. Like let's say they they flake maybe it flaking could be they're sick, had an emergency. My dad is in the hospital, I need to go help my dad. maybe they had a car crash, maybe who knows? It could be the dog ne
swallowed a piece of chocolate, you know, and like they're like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. And then but that blows up the plan. It's not like you just shift it by one day sometimes. Sometimes you're like, I don't know when they're gonna be back. So now I'm adding overhead to my day to communicate all this to the client, but also say, we don't know when it's gonna get done now. It was gonna be done today. Now we don't know. And I'll I'll get in touch tomorrow. And the answer might be I still don't know. Or maybe it'll be it'll be done tomorrow. And like
But now you've we've now added overhead to today, so I need to communicate, and I added overhead to at least tomorrow to now like re communicate the plan. And maybe the next day, because now we've maybe scheduled the work for the next day, or you know, like it's it's it's a pretty big disproportionate burden when someone flakes. And we use flake as like a a catch all term for like what was planned is now not is blown up because someone can't do it today.
Kurt Von Ahnen (10:23)
Yeah.
Sometimes and I went live a lot during the pandemic saying weird things like you have to find the opportunities within the obstacles, right? sometimes somebody flakes. I'm almost relieved. I'm like, okay, well that frees up some space. I can get some other things done, or I could catch up on a couple of loose ends, or, you know, especially like if a customer flakes. Like, let's say I'm supposed to meet somebody at two, assign in.
Poof, they're not there, right? 215, I'm sending them the link in their email. Like, the zoom window's been open for 15 minutes. Where ya at? And then they're like, I'm sorry, I forgot, or whatever. Like, how quickly can I adjust when someone flakes in that regard? Well, I can adjust real quick. Open up a tab and start going to work, you know? and sometimes it's a gift. Sometimes it's an absolute gift when that happens. But then there's the other thing like you described, you know, it's like someone's hard drive locks up.
someone sick, someone whatever, and the work you expected to give to a client is not ready on time. That I really struggle with. From a project management standpoint, I try to build in lots of padding. So rarely does it affect me that negatively. I can usually soak it up somehow. you know, pick up the pace on the next task or whatever. Like, like we we haven't missed a deadline since we started Mañana No Mas we we're we're pretty realistic with what we promise. But
You're right, man. It it's that really adds a burden when someone else on the team can't supply in a timely way. It can really muddle the day.
Toby Cryns (11:57)
There's a whole nother aspect to this, which is sometimes I flake. Like I here's an example. Like there was a client that I onboarded. I sent an email and I said ⁓ with an invoice. I said, pay this invoice and we'll schedule the work. they paid the invoice, but I didn't see it as paid anywhere. And and so there was a tech glitch somewhere in the system. they had replied to the email and like
But now we're nine days later and I email and said, Hey, when are you gonna pay this invoice? They're like, we paid it nine days ago. And I said, ⁓ crap, you did. I see it now. Not with that extra context, I found it. And and so I messed up in that case. I flaked on them. There was another time recently where a person scheduled a coffee with me via Calendly or whatever, and they were on the West Coast when they scheduled it. And so they thought it was at 10 a.m. when it was at noon. And so I'm sitting there doing my thing and they message like, where are you? I'm at the coffee shop. And so
Kurt Von Ahnen (12:27)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (12:47)
Technically I flaked there, even though it was no fault of my own. On my calendar it's at noon and and they're like, yeah, we were traveling. And but like they're like, What do you want to do? So in terms of how I reacted in both those cases, first of all I approached it like, Wow, I'm sorry. Whether or not it's my fault, I'm sorry 'cause this sucks for everyone. and and in the taste of the coffee, she's like, Do you want to meet up? I'm like, Yeah, I'll be there in ten minutes. And you know, like so I dropped everything, I ran out in that case.
Kurt Von Ahnen (12:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (13:12)
met up with that person. The other time with the the previous case with the invoice paid, I urgently scheduled that work and I said, like, hey, we're gonna get this done for you as soon as possible. We screwed this up. Sorry. ⁓
Kurt Von Ahnen (13:23)
Yeah. Yeah, almost like I'm gonna put this on the VIP list now, you know, and and we're gonna we're gonna fast track this because I screwed up. So that's that's that's that's pretty cool actually when you think about it in terms like your the flexibility to do that. And what I like, what I'm hearing from you is ownership. You you from a leadership perspective, you took ownership of the issue regard like time zone deal, right? You could you could have been
Toby Cryns (13:26)
Yeah.
Kurt Von Ahnen (13:45)
well, you scheduled that while you were in California? Well, look, while you were enjoying the beach, I was here working, right? Like, like ⁓ I'll see you at noon, right? You could have just been a jerk. but no, you took ownership of it and you're like, hey, let's just make this right and and make something happen. I think the communication and the the the humility and the hat in hand, I I think it's very possible to execute professionalism and expertise while maintaining a sense of humility. And I think I think.
Toby Cryns (13:49)
Yeah.
Kurt Von Ahnen (14:10)
Quite honestly, that's the energy that keeps our agency going. If if I were to allow myself to get all pompous and arrogant about stuff, I don't think people would put up with it very long.
Toby Cryns (14:18)
Yeah, I mean that's the SNL skit with ⁓ the IT person, you know, like the opposite of what we're talking about is like, you idiot. Right. let's keep going here. We we were conversing earlier before the recording about ⁓ or I guess we didn't converse much, so let's get into it. Paying it forward in your community. we we have this as a topic and ⁓ we've talked over number of podcasts
Kurt Von Ahnen (14:26)
You idiot. Turn it off and turn it back on again.
Toby Cryns (14:43)
you know, ways to pay it forward. Let's just start with why. What just let's talk about what is paying it forward? Why would we want to? Because we're in America. It's this you know, the there's this concept of selfish capitalism and it's generally like how our economy works is through this lens of selfish capitalism. But let's talk about paying it forward. why should we consider paying it forward and what does that mean?
Kurt Von Ahnen (15:05)
I do I do stuff. I I I speak at schools. ⁓ and just this morning I spoke at a youth detention center. And, you know, this kind of came up. So, like, what in the world am I doing there? Right? Like, I own an agency, I work, right? Capitalism, right? But I had the morning off, I had it scheduled with them to to talk to these kids. And there is such a reward in
Paying it forward and adding value to other people. I don't know if it's the John Maxwell training. I don't know where that, because they have a saying that says, ⁓ you know, our our job every day is to add value to others, right? So whatever you do in life, you're adding value to others. And so sometimes when I'm adding value to others, it involves getting paid. And other times it doesn't. But the fulfillment is almost immeasurable. And
Put this in the terms that I it's hard to it's it's hard to say like with accuracy, like what's the return on investment for that? but as I get older, all of these puzzle pieces, all of these things that I do, they start to fit together and make a really cool picture. And it's I don't know that I would have seen it 20 years ago. And so I'm always trying to encourage people, like, there's there there's an avenue to success, fulfillment, you know, personal fulfillment. ⁓
When you do these things, I just don't think it's always immediately evident. It's like, so in the WordPress space, when people go to contributor day. So you've been to WordCamps and they have contributor day. like I run a WordPress meetup, but I am not a developer. Like I know you like to develop things, but I'm not a developer. I'm an implementer. so when when contribution day happens, I'm usually not a part of that. It's like and I see people that love it. I mean, hundreds of people, you know, crowd in to go to contribution day.
⁓ contributor day. and you have to ask, well, why would they do that? Why would they log eight, ten hours or whatever of free development work for WordPress? And it's ⁓ you know, in the end, we all get to use this open source project and it grows and it does the things that it does a lot based on those contributions.
Toby Cryns (16:55)
I think too, like our the whole thing works. The whole system of culture and society works through contributions. Like like capitalism is one aspect of our world, and it's a big aspect, but it's not the only thing that we need.
Kurt Von Ahnen (17:07)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (17:11)
There's also on the flip side of that, like there are times and we've talked about some times on this podcast already, where we're not sharing as much as we'd like for capitalistic reasons.
Kurt Von Ahnen (17:22)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (17:23)
And maybe personal, you know, like s someone you g someone steals your client or you they they hire you know, you're basically pushed out and then that person's like, Hey, can you help us with this now that you have pushed you out? and they're you know, f I don't know if that's personal or capitalistic, probably a little bit of both, where I'm like, I don't really wanna help you, I'm gonna set a boundary and you pay for this service, that's what you pay for. There's also another sorry.
Kurt Von Ahnen (17:45)
Yeah. Well, it's
well so I was talking to ⁓ I'm gonna speak at the school system next month. And so I was meeting with the superintendent and she doesn't know who I am, you know, and so so I was trying to give her some background and and and I was trying to not brag. I was trying to be somewhat humble in the room, but she would say, you know, what about this? And I go, well that you I'm a coach on the mountain bike team, or what about this? Well, that's because I volunteer with those kids at the church, because she was like, You seem to know a lot of the kids from the
Know from the college. And I go, Well, I know them because I volunteer at church with the college age group. And then she's all like, you and she's like, You do a lot of stuff. And when I sit back and look at it, ⁓ being self-employed allows the freedom to do those things. Like if I had a if I was still working at Suzuki from eight to five Monday through Friday, I wouldn't be speaking at the high school, speaking at the college, you know, doing these things that I do. but I wouldn't be working on customer work at two o'clock in the morning either. Right. So just to be clear that that's you know, it's just the flexibility.
of where that time gets spent. But it it makes me think, like Toby, what if what if everyone that had an agency was involved in paying it forward somehow, donating time, a an apprenticeship program or something? Like w where do you think there's gaps in our community where agency owners could help fill?
Toby Cryns (18:53)
That's great question. I think about this a lot in the context of the current tech billionaires and trillionaires, and I'm just like, you could do so much good with that type of money. I mean, a billion dollars could remake an entire city like like Minneap the size of Minneapolis. Like you could remake the city with a billion dollars. Yeah, exactly. And
Kurt Von Ahnen (19:14)
Well, you could just fly four models to space and back.
Toby Cryns (19:18)
There's that, like
that's I'm all that's the easy one to picture. Like, you got or let's say s he Elon Musk purchased Twitter for over sixty billion dollars or forty billion. With forty billion you could build I mean, the sky you could literally do anything. It you could rebuild Chicago or LA. Like, but but let's think smaller here.
Kurt Von Ahnen (19:37)
You could work on the
planning for a high speed rail in California with that kind of money.
Toby Cryns (19:40)
Yeah.
Let's think smaller though, because clearly I don't have a tr anywhere near that amount of ⁓ money or time. But I know people who coach little league, and that's something and there's some self interest there, sure, but like it's still a pretty good investment. I serve on our local neighborhood board and it's a pretty big time commitment. It's probably like twenty hours a month and we have a budget that's funded through the the city and everything and
I I I think like this is what I would say. I so I've been raising kids now for fifteen years and about a year or two ago I I was like, okay, I'm gonna I'm I have enough space in my head and in my life where I can like go do some community volunteering. And so here I am at you know, forty something years old and I'm like, okay, I'm ready now to contribute to the community. Not to say I wasn't contributing
in different ways. Because I very much was even throughout that, but I I I I was contributing primarily to the tech communities in Minneapolis, whereas now I I've kind of expanded that to just community organizing and stuff. And I think so the question you asked was great. Like what should you do? And and I think like the first thing is ask ask that. What should I do and and go
Find it. In your case, somehow you found that school to talk to. Go find it. You know, like I don't this is kind of the the classic dumb thing that entrepreneurs say to other people, like, I want to start a business, but I don't know if it's gonna be profitable. And the what I always say is, okay, go see. Go try to sell it. And I think like that's the first step is like go see what you can participate in. Maybe you don't have a kid in Little League.
Kurt Von Ahnen (21:07)
Go see.
Toby Cryns (21:14)
So you wanna do something else. you don't maybe you do wanna coach little league, but you don't have kids. Go try, see if you can become an assistant or something.
Kurt Von Ahnen (21:22)
Yeah, I f I find it so interesting because it's like, so what are the gaps in community that agency owners can fill? Like and I start thinking about that. I immediately go to speaking, training, like those kinds of things. Cause I think like there's STEM programs at the high school or something, right? And no one from the real world ever shows up at these schools. So you have teachers, right? Those who can do and those who can't teach, right? Like the you hear that all the time. And it's not necessarily true, right? But there's certain truths about that.
Like these kids, they get out of school and they might understand like how a keyboard works, how a how a screen works, like they might understand some of the basics ⁓ of of working with a computer because they had some classes. But I have found in my experience that these kids get out of school and have zero, zero information on how to generate revenue. Like they just don't it hasn't even occurred to them yet. Like, like I have a skill now, but now I have to generate revenue.
And a lot of them think, well, I'm gonna go get a job. And I'm like, well, if you went to school for IT stuff and you're looking for a job, where are you gonna get a job in today's market? Like where did you think that job's gonna be? And what's the cost of living in the urban area that you're gonna go move to? It's it's like if if you don't know how to create revenue, what are you gonna do with these skills?
Toby Cryns (22:34)
I think I I wanna push back on and and this isn't I'm very familiar with the phrase about those that can do or those that can't teach. I do wanna like say that a lot of my giving back is teaching. and a lot of what you're describing is teaching. So I I think that there's something fundamentally flawed in that very common. and also like I think you're also
Kurt Von Ahnen (22:49)
Yeah.
The saying is is flawed, yeah.
Toby Cryns (22:58)
very much wrong on on people getting out of high school without skills and whatnot. Like the the things that the teachers are teaching probably aren't the things that you're looking at in that moment.
I I think teaching is probably if you're looking for something to do with your to community to to give back, teaching is probably the best place to start or a one of the best places to start. I have so much respect for teachers of all ⁓ flavors. Like there are people in our WordPress community, for example, who teach WordPress. Eric Karkovack from WP Minute does tons of teaching on the WP Minute blog.
there are other members of our community who teach on those, you know, e-learning courses and whatnot. I also have tons of respect for our commu public school teachers and private school teachers who you know, I just think like it's a very under well, first of all, we c probably can agree that even based on what you said earlier, teaching as a concept is undervalued in our culture. Like very undervalued because th I mean that
Kurt Von Ahnen (23:53)
I think it is. And I and I think that the difference is I think that some of the teachers are really committed, do a great job. I think the curriculum that they're taught to teach or that is is missing elements. Like I speak at the automotive STEM program, right? 'Cause I've 20 years of automotive experience. And it's there's there's a similar thing there, Toby, that the the when you speak to the kids themselves.
They're learning about cars and they're learning how to fix dents and they're learning but they have no idea what the job looks like or how to source a job or how to create revenue once they get out of school.
Toby Cryns (24:28)
I think so I I have taught tech curriculums at colleges locally here. there have been classes, and this is probably the norm. Twenty people in the class, two people get it. Those two people are gonna keep going. The other eighteen are just like, I'm just here to get a certificate, thank you. I taught a social media curriculum once and at a local college here and I would say
Kurt Von Ahnen (24:39)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (24:51)
A third of the class really got it. Two thirds of the class is just gonna walk away with nothing. And the ones that get it will carry it way further than I ended. The ones that don't get it, you know, that's just one seed of knowledge that'll probably never germinate for them. So I don't I don't really agree with what you're saying. I think like there's probably people in those classes, but it's very small percentage that are gonna take that seed and germinate it and run and grow a tree out of it.
Kurt Von Ahnen (25:13)
Take it and go.
So you see it more like a student issue than a than an instruction issue?
Toby Cryns (25:18)
I think so. I mean, look at Michael Jordan. Like, you can't take any normal kid and turn him into Michael Jordan, like or you know, like he's gotta have first of all, he's gotta be super lucky just wherever they were born to land in that spot, but also be ready to learn and and also you get there and you don't have these things that derail you. So Jordan, you can for all his great qualities and LeBron and they never got injured.
Kobe never, you know, never got seriously injured. You take a guy, there's tons of stories, I mean, unlimited, a pile of stories a mile high of amazing number one draft picks that got injured and their career's over, you know, or former MVPs that got injured the next year, they're done. And the this is things can deal derail your life. It can derail any of our lives at any time through no fault of our own. And and I just I think like that's a reality too.
Kurt Von Ahnen (26:07)
All right, it's all fair. What do you feel about the podcast? You and I, like this is a volunteer thing for us. I think this is a great way to to fill a gap in the community and have a conversation. Especially when we can disagree on something and not hate each other for it.
Toby Cryns (26:20)
Yeah. I think I so it's been a a year, as you're aware. We've done a around fifty of these, five zeros, something like that. I don't actually know how many, but something like that. And I was thinking the other day, 'cause as we hit that milestone there were some posts about it and I was like no, the question I was asking was why am I doing this? And
Kurt Von Ahnen (26:34)
You were thinking, I'm done with this.
Toby Cryns (26:40)
What's clear that I know it's clear why I'm not doing it, because it's not profitable from a financial standpoint for us. ⁓ you know, my goal you know, it's it's not leading to jobs for me. It's not, you know, doing it's not a commercial venture for me at all. It's not even good for marketing for me. It's I mean, I wouldn't say it's bad, but it's it's it's not leading to work. We'll say that for me. It's not leading to more money. but it's still I'm like, why okay, that's all true for me.
Why am I continuing to show up? And I I think like one, I enjoy teaching. I I think that like it's the greatest compliment I can receive to say for someone to say, Hey, I wanna hear what you think about this thing that you have experience in. And so it's an ego boost one, but also like I I think I'm probably a decent teacher, based on feedback I've received and maybe I'm not, I don't know. And it again, like it depends on the student too. Like
I've had students that say you suck at teaching, I have students say you're the most amazing teacher and I literally had a student once, he's at the end of the course, he raises his hand in front of everyone, he's just like, I learned nothing here and I blame you. Like, Okay. Thanks for letting me know.
Kurt Von Ahnen (27:41)
Take some more Molly, kid.
Toby Cryns (27:43)
Yeah.
why why do you show up week after week for this podcast, Kurt?
Kurt Von Ahnen (27:48)
I enjoy podcasting. I do. I enjoy the conversations. I enjoy the interactions. I really feel like I've gotten to know you over the last year, which is kind of cool because you're a really kind of a special person, but ⁓ in a good way. But ⁓ I enjoy it. And to your point, I can't point to a single client that has come to me and said, I'm so happy I get to work with you. I've watched every episode of the agency action show. Like that just has not happened. but
I'm involved in a couple of other shows and I think the combination of shows rounds me out to be kind of an expert in the space and I think it makes a nice it's a nice framework, you know? I'm getting older. I'm not gonna do this agency stuff forever and ever and ever, right? So I see me going more into running an apprentice program, doing more teaching, doing more, which is totally ironic because I'm the one who repeated the the phrase. But ⁓
Because I don't really believe it. Like I said, sometimes it's applicable and sometimes it's not, right? It's I really believe boots on the ground, experience, the stories of all the customers, the clients, the hiring, the firing, that's gonna lend itself to some really good training and mentorship downstream. And and that's why I keep it up. I think the more exposure the better for me, at least in that situation.
Toby Cryns (28:59)
Yeah, you know, and I maybe we can transition to one final topic here based on that. And this is like this marketing topic of like you could one could argue that all marketing's good marketing, all get in your face out there, but there's certainly efforts that would generate more returns than others. And so
Kurt Von Ahnen (29:15)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (29:16)
There's this idea of giving back and doing things you enjoy and that lift you up for whatever you being the general listener here. And do those things that that help you lead a more full life. So those are like could be a podcast, could be coaching, whatever it is.
And then there's like the work part of it, like and I it's part of my equation where I i i it's part of the scale. It's on one side of the scale. Like this is not necessarily part of my marketing plan, but I do enjoy the conversations and hopefully it makes me a more well-rounded human in the world learning from you every week, Kurt. Like that's a great part of this is that I come away hopefully a little ⁓ stronger, a little more, you know, anti-fragile, you know.
Kurt Von Ahnen (29:53)
Yeah.
Anti-fragile. I like that one. Well, you're right. There's some exposure's not good exposure, you know. the gun range opened up in Hutchinson, where I live. And I was very excited because it's one of the first things I signed up for when I moved here. You know, having escaped California, I was like, ooh, you can shoot guns in Kansas, and they and they opened up this new range. And I love the range, the range is fantastic. It's modern, it's awesome. But
I went on opening day and I posted on social, you know, that I was at the gun range having a great time and I had a picture of like not my collection, but there was a fair amount of of armament on the table in front of me at the range. And I actually got a couple of crappy comments about it. Like, you know, you Americans and your guns and and this th you know, it was a little bit more negative. And I thought, I'm just having a good time shooting at the range. It's not like I'm I'm not out like hunting people, right? I'm at the r I'm at the range shooting guns. And ⁓
To your point, there's there's some exposure that doesn't get taken well, right? And ⁓ but that's still a part of your life too, right? And so you gotta think like, well, how much stuff do I really share? How much stuff do I not share? And I've always been a really transparent person. But if we're making this as a message for people, agencies that haven't stuck their foot out yet, right? Agencies that haven't joined in the community yet, like people that are like, that is cool. I probably how should I get started? It's like.
Really take a moment and think it through. Like think through the the positive exposure and the possible negative exposure and maybe maybe go with a little more cautiously. Cause I sound super enthusiastic when I'm talking about stuff, but I want to make sure that I also say, hey, you know, be careful about how you sh show yourself publicly.
Toby Cryns (31:32)
That's great thought. ⁓ so picture coach, you can p everyone can picture the little league coach. I used to do umpiring for little league, worst job in the history of my life. And I've had a lot of everybody hated me, and they made it clear every second of the job. ⁓ and you can imagine the coach, same thing, like you go into this thing, and one thing to consider is you're doing it, can you handle the negative stuff that's in inevitably gonna come at you as a leader, if you're gonna be a leader.
Kurt Von Ahnen (31:41)
Everybody hated you.
Toby Cryns (31:58)
Now, I was also thinking like if you don't like that negative, still go out there. Just volunteer to be the foot soldier. You know, like the ⁓ so there are people who lead. ⁓ we have a big nonprofit that does a lot of tech events, and there's leaders of that. And I'm sure they catch heat and flack and good and bad. And there's hundreds of people who just show up and move the tables and do the chairs. And they don't do any of that. And I'm part of like the the community council here that I was describing earlier, and like
Kurt Von Ahnen (32:18)
The minions.
Toby Cryns (32:25)
There we're wading into all sorts of we're non-political, but like you can imagine there's politics around and as the leader, I'm the president, I have to like navigate that. And so sometimes I I try to be fully aware of that. But this is the thing. If you don't like that politics, like being the center of the you know, again, we're non-political, but there's politics, believe it or not. And you know, there's a role. You can be a on our specific thing, you can be a board member.
Kurt Von Ahnen (32:47)
Yeah, yeah.
Toby Cryns (32:52)
You don't have to be the president, vice president, secretary. You can just be a board member. You could just show up at meetings and just talk all you want at the meetings.
Kurt Von Ahnen (32:57)
Mm-hmm.
Well, amen to that. I th my role at the church on the the group that I volunteer with, I am very specifically not a leader. Like everyone assumes, like I've published a book and that, you know, I talk on leadership and all the everyone just assumes, ⁓ Kurt is he's gonna he's gonna be the pastor. I know I am not the youth pastor. I'm not the I am just a dude that shows up Monday nights, hangs around, puts chairs away, and talks to anyone that wants to talk to me.
Like if someone wants to talk to me, I'm there. And if and if and there's nights I go and I get completely ignored and people wave at me or high-five me. And that's fine too. I am a really good, like, not even a number two there. I'm like a number three. You know what I mean? There, there's the guy running the show, there's a bunch of number twos, and I'm actually like strategically a number three or four on the list. And I am I am so happy in that space, Toby. Like my whole life I've been catapulted to this.
You know what you're doing, you should run it. And I'm like, I don't wanna run. I don't want to run these things. I just wanna, I wanna help. I wanna be around if you need me. But that, I do barbecue for them. Like they're coming over this Sunday. I'm bar I'm gonna have 25 college kids at my house. I got a brisket on the I got a brisket on the smoker right now for them. But ⁓ and that's the stuff I love to do. So like that's what my message today, our message was like, what are the gaps in the community that agency owners could fill? And I think the important thing there is if you were to fill a gap.
Is it something you would love to do?
Toby Cryns (34:22)
Yeah. And I think about this podcast. Matt runs the podcast. You and I are not in charge. Yeah. I mean at best we're number two in the but there've been times and I appreciate that. Like I like having Matt as a buffer to all the things and he produces the show and I like being I mean, yeah, we're probably number three 'cause there's Matt, then Eric, then us, or something like that, like whoever's editing the videos and stuff. and there've been times, as you know, like
Kurt Von Ahnen (34:26)
yeah. We're number threes and fours.
Toby Cryns (34:48)
I w we have escalated political concerns like, hey, I said this dumb thing on the show, Matt. Here it is. I don't care what you do, but here's what I said, you might want to delete it. You know, and like it's nice being able to just like be like, Your problem, I'm not president here.
Kurt Von Ahnen (34:53)
Ha ha.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. You you take care of it. And it it i it's like Christmas when a new episode gets released. Like, hey, they put up another one today.
Toby Cryns (35:09)
Right.
Kurt Von Ahnen (35:10)
All right. Well, I think this is a great time to end, man. I've really enjoyed our time today, Toby. I think this was a fun discussion. And ⁓ let's just get to it, man. How can people reach you?
Toby Cryns (35:18)
You can find me on LinkedIn, Toby Crines, T-O-B-Y-C-R-Y-N S, or you can go to themightymo.com. That's T-H-E-M-I-G-H-T-Y-M-O.com, where we provide WordPress development, WordPress design, SEO. How about you, Kurt? Where can people reach you?
Kurt Von Ahnen (35:35)
Mañana No Mas is the agency name. We focus largely on e learning and membership at our agency. And ⁓ yeah, I'm on LinkedIn too. I'm the only Kurt Van Ahnan there. I'm easy to find.
Toby Cryns (35:45)
All right. Thanks everybody. This has been another episode of Agency Action with Toby and Kurt. Please make sure to send us questions on all the social things, leave comments and let us know if you have ideas that we can tackle on the next show. Thanks everybody.