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Join old friends and acclaimed artists, John Butler and Dingo Spender, for an intimate conversation delving into the creative process and narrative behind John's captivating new musical venture, 'Running River.' Settle in as they share anecdotes, inspirations, and the transformative journey that led to this ambient masterpiece. From the inception of melodies to the ethereal landscapes evoked through sound, explore the depths of artistic collaboration and musical exploration. Whether you're a long-time fan or a newcomer to Johns's work, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the heart and soul of his journey through new sonic territories.
John: Hello, dear friends, this is John Butler
John: and you're about to listen to a podcast
John: called Running the River.
John: This is a new podcast that I have put
John: together with my dear friend Dingo Spender.
John: He may recall helping with the last podcast
John: I made for my album Home.
John: Here again we deconstruct and get under the
John: skin and get our hands dirty in the
John: substrate soil what I was envisioning for
John: this latest ambient album.
John: This is an album I made for wellness
John: practitioners and practicers alike to
John: defrag and decompress in this very busy,
John: fast and quick world and we hope you enjoy
John: as we take you up down and across the river.
John: This is Running the River Go.
Dingo: Present.
John: John Present Present as much as possible so
John: let's just go quickly back a few years.
Dingo: Last time we sat down and made a podcast
Dingo: and exploration of your work it was um home,
Dingo: and that was five years ago, wow oh yeah,
Dingo: um so lots has happened in that five years,
Dingo: oh my god, lots has happened.
John: So much has happened for all of us for
John: everyone bloody world for the whole world.
Dingo: Um, john's got this new album, send me the
Dingo: link and it's an album, ambient album and I
Dingo: had no one because I'd seen you a couple of
Dingo: months ago when you were recording it, and
Dingo: so I was really curious, really excited to
Dingo: hear it.
Dingo: And so she sent me the link and um and I it
Dingo: took me a few days to get to it but I like
Dingo: ran myself a bath, lit some candles,
Dingo: because the context was like this is,
Dingo: john's made an ambient album, which is
Dingo: something that you've been wanting to do
Dingo: for a very long time.
Dingo: So I was just like, oh my God, finally here
Dingo: we go, exciting, ran a bath, lit the
Dingo: candles, got the speaker set up and I'm
Dingo: like lowered myself in the hot water.
John: you're probably the only person like in my
John: whole sphere of peers and team that
John: actually went to that level, so thank you
John: well you know I've, I'd really appreciate
John: it.
Dingo: I mean, and I think maybe we share the same
Dingo: thing, like in my life now, like I'm
Dingo: listening to so much less busy music, like
Dingo: I need long quiet notes.
Dingo: Well, I was listening.
John: I listened to a couple of your ambient
John: tracks, yeah, about six months ago as well.
John: Yeah, like, yeah, this seems to be a
John: zeitgeist.
John: Um, yeah it's like one of those, like guys.
John: I think for you and I at least I know it's
John: probably something we thought about for the
John: last 10 years yeah, you know yes, um, every
John: time we got on a acupuncture kinesiology
John: massage table, we're listening to some
John: music on.
John: I reckon I could.
John: You know, the music is like this is cool,
John: yeah, yeah, some of it's like it's sick and
John: other places like yeah, I would have done
John: this completely to relate.
Dingo: At the end of a yoga class, lying in the
Dingo: and just hearing like a really reverb
Dingo: sounding dolphin and just going I wouldn't
Dingo: use that reverb on that dolphin on that
Dingo: particular species of dolphin yeah, I think
Dingo: the bottlenose dolphin needs more like a
Dingo: whole reverb.
John: Yeah than a plate echo.
Dingo: Anyway, we're going nerdy already we are.
John: So, before we go any more nerdy and start
John: going real deep, uh, I'd like to
John: acknowledge that we're on wajak buja and
John: bibbulman nation, which is, uh, southwest
John: western australia.
John: Um and uh, yeah, just acknowledge all the
John: old ones that have come before us for a
John: millennia literally the oldest, longest
John: surviving continuous culture on the planet
John: and we're here in Biddleman Nation,
John: southwest strong Buddha.
John: So, yeah, now let's nerd out.
John: Thank you so much for doing that as well,
John: Beautifully done.
Dingo: Anyway, I'll cut out all the dolphins and
Dingo: the river bits, but yeah, in the bath?
John: Oh, no, no, keep the dolphin and the reverb
John: bits.
John: But yeah, in the bath, no, no, keep the
John: dolphin and the reverb bits please.
Dingo: I was in the bath and I just was like
Dingo: grinning and melting and just like, yes,
Dingo: like this is so what's needed for me and
Dingo: therefore, if it's needed for me, then I'm
Dingo: sure there's someone else that is needing
Dingo: to just slow down, relax and to not be any
Dingo: more complex, like no more added complexity
Dingo: to music, to situations, to my life, like
Dingo: can we just say less with more?
Dingo: And so, from there, I would love to learn
Dingo: more about, like what it was like for you
Dingo: making this, what led you to and what's
Dingo: what's around it for you oh, there's a lot
Dingo: surrounded.
John: So I was thinking about last night, like
John: how do I answer all the questions without
John: speaking for two hours straight?
John: You know, and I'll kind of just leapfrog
John: off what you said about, um, just listening
John: to lots of ambient music lately needing
John: less.
John: Um, you know I started there's a couple,
John: you know I mean ambient music lately
John: needing less.
John: I've been lucky and privileged enough to be
John: able to look after myself with different
John: modalities and get help and treatment and
John: healing for a long time, so I was always
John: introduced to that style of music that sits
John: in those places of wellness and sits in
John: those places of wellness and sits in those
John: places of healing and recuperation and
John: intention for one looking after themselves,
John: and so I've always been kind of surrounded
John: by that music in one way or another.
John: I heard it, but something kind of happened
John: around when I started, you know, starting a
John: more regular meditation practice on the
John: road and what I found was the generators,
John: the sound checking.
John: You know, we're living in a bus, the 12 of
John: us in a bus, the generators going in the
John: bus, the generators going backstage there,
John: the generator is going backstage.
John: There's sound checking, there's sirens,
John: there's just like.
John: And then I go and play on stage for two and
John: a half hours and for me that's a state of
John: um, extreme, uh, what's the word?
John: Attention, intention, focus, and it's also,
John: for my body, exhilarating and a little bit
John: fight or flight, if not a lot fight or
John: flight, like when I see photos of myself
John: playing, I'm like you could easily just
John: stick a uh, you know, a spear in my hand
John: right now or a gun, and like I look like
John: I'm fighting, like okay, are you all right,
John: you know, and uh, so that being the
John: backdrop, you know, and getting some decent
John: headphones and and just finding some
John: ambient music to kind of block out the
John: noise yeah, just actually block out the
John: noise so I could do my practice, my 20
John: minute practice of meditation or breathing
John: or yoga, and just get, because what I was
John: finding and what I've found is more I've
John: become, I guess, aware of my physiology and
John: more sensitive I get as I get older, it
John: seems, and sometimes I'm like am I getting
John: fragile or am I becoming more aware?
John: who knows?
John: but is um so my nervous system is fried a
John: little fried and I, you know, I definitely
John: have adrenal fatigue and I've talked to a
John: lot of people in the industry and other
John: industries like performance industries,
John: whether it's be sport or or acting or
John: otherwise and, yeah, this is adrenal
John: fatigue and this fried nervous system.
John: So that's why I started using it to block
John: out.
John: You know those things and I started I
John: started with sleep stream was one of them
John: and you know and then I started getting
John: different breathing modalities of late that
John: they had old playlists on streaming
John: services, like massive playlists, and you
John: know I listened to those and once again
John: have those ideas like, oh it's, you know,
John: this is cool, I, I want to do.
John: That's why I wanted to do something like
John: this.
John: Maybe you know there's a time for that.
John: Um, but in general, like before I get to
John: why or how, it's like I feel if I was to be
John: so bold you know I can speak for myself in
John: that and I have.
John: But I think in the West in particular, with
John: the amount of, like the dissociated village
John: that we live in, the inundation of
John: information, the noise, the actual
John: industrial noise that we're surrounded by,
John: and just the whether it's the social,
John: political, environmental, spiritual kind of
John: dis-ease that surround us, I look around
John: and I don't know if it's just the lens I
John: have and the narrative I have and I'm
John: totally aware that that's probably a huge
John: part of it but I feel like I'm hearing the
John: same stories.
John: I just actually listen to a whole lot of
John: ambient music when I'm by myself.
John: A lot of musicians that write songs,
John: whether it's rock or folk.
John: It's like, yeah, I listen to a lot of
John: ambient music when I'm not doing anything
John: else.
John: I just find it helps.
Dingo: And.
John: I feel like we're all low-fried, is what
John: I'm saying.
John: I feel like we're all low-fried, we're all
John: scrolling way too much, we're all inundated
John: by these kind of existential kind of
John: challenges within ourselves and around us,
John: and I find a lot of us are turning to
John: soothing sonics you know, to literally bomb
John: frayed and fried nervous systems yeah which
John: I, you know, I for one have yeah, yeah,
John: it's almost like, um, you know, when I
John: sometimes, when I'm listening to ambient
John: music, it sort of feels like it's going
John: back into the sound of what it would be
John: like in utero.
Dingo: Yeah right, because it's like it's that,
Dingo: you know, everything's kind of a bit
Dingo: muffled and it's like you're hearing sounds
Dingo: through like a layer of protective layer of
Dingo: you know skin and fluid that just creates
Dingo: this kind of more washy.
Dingo: Sound so funny.
John: You should say that because it's like I had
John: this.
John: You know, I was thinking about this
John: interview and I was like I want to tell
John: people to put earplugs in and put noise
John: cancelling headphones or some headphones on
John: and then listen to it.
John: I'm like spent all this money getting good
John: sounds with Dave and James and you know,
John: mixed and mastered, and I'm like now put
John: some earplugs in Something really nice
John: about having that oh yeah, that soothing,
John: not staccato coming at you, you know.
Dingo: No hissing snakes.
John: No hissing snakes, no, staccato hissing
John: snakes.
John: No, no, no yeah.
Dingo: We want dolphins just soaked in reverb
Dingo: through like ancient oceans.
Dingo: Just so tell us.
Dingo: You just mentioned Dave.
Dingo: Yeah, I'm really curious.
Dingo: So one of the things I mean you've shared
Dingo: with me already that, like you've, you've
Dingo: kind of been teetering around the edges
Dingo: already, because often in your songs you're
Dingo: doing these beautiful textural ambient
Dingo: build-ups and backgrounds with, like your
Dingo: loop pedal and harmonics and creating like
Dingo: this shimmery soundscape.
Dingo: So then you layer on top of it and then
Dingo: like the big beat comes in or the riff
Dingo: comes over, so band starts so I guess it
Dingo: you know.
Dingo: Tell us about the process of of that
Dingo: actually now being the foundation that you
Dingo: know that creates the whole puny music,
Dingo: rather than just the first step that leads
Dingo: into the band kicking in yeah, well, I mean,
Dingo: I, I mean I think that's where the the idea
Dingo: was really birthed, you know, years ago was
Dingo: like all those intros that are very much
Dingo: like.
John: They're, um, really inspired by eastern
John: music.
John: Lots of different.
John: Folk music will always start with like a
John: preamble, that's literally no time to it,
John: and meandering and improvised um, a lot of
John: different.
John: You know a lot of different modalities of
John: music.
John: Use it and you know indian is probably
John: indian.
John: Classical music is probably one of the, you
John: know, the most well-known versions where
John: you know before raga will start and then
John: that raga could be, you know, you know 20
John: long, but the beginning is like a setting
John: and it's really important.
John: It's something I've always done, like
John: before I started playing the piece, when I
John: was busking something would start that way,
John: or when I do ballet or Treat your Mama, all
John: those kind of things, and so I already
John: heard what I could do just in those things.
John: I'm like it'd be cool just to have a whole
John: album of this mellow shit before we go into
John: a fighter flight and um.
John: And so I knew, when I was in those centers
John: of those treatment places and I was hearing
John: what was going on there whether it be an
John: acupuncture place or a Chinese medicine
John: place that had beautiful folk instruments
John: playing I was like, yeah, I can do
John: something like that in my own way, and I
John: think I know the foundation was going to
John: launch from.
John: And then, you know, once I decided to do it,
John: I like all things.
John: I think it's a real phenomenon.
John: I've talked about this with a few friends
John: the minute you decide to do something, it's
John: amazing how your body follows.
Dingo: Yes.
John: And I'll go into that a bit later.
John: But once I decided to do it, you know I had
John: no real material and I just sat down with
John: my loop pedal in the living room next to
John: the fireplace and just played for three
John: hours and just had my phone on voice record
John: and pretty much wrote the album in a couple
John: hours, just sitting there going.
John: Yeah, it doesn't have to be like elaborate
John: intros, clever changes, cool middle lights,
John: bridges for solos, and this is just like I
John: could play one chord in one plucking
John: pattern for 10 minutes yeah and then just
John: create a small harmonic bed underneath it
John: and then just play some and try to play
John: less which was the challenge and found that
John: I would just.
John: You know, I don't understand the science of
John: a lot of these things, but whatever, beta,
John: zeta, theta mode, my body went into you
John: know alpha, beta, delta mode.
John: Oh, whatever, you know part of the Greek
John: alphabet I was going into felt good.
John: And I was like oh, this is working for me
John: and so that's kind of where it started.
John: I mean, I think the next part is like, uh,
John: it's kind of like the.
John: The journey to this album, yes, feels to me
John: really important because, yeah, I had, I
John: had this idea of making this ambient album,
John: you know, for a decade, and there's a whole
John: series of events that kind of led to this
John: and why it was essential to do it.
John: Thank you, no-transcript.