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Bad Startup Advice is a parody of the ego-bloated founder-worshiping world of venture-backed tech startups.
Each episode begins with authoritatively phrased (but ironically bad) advice on difficult & nuanced issues every founder struggles with. After the jokes, we put our serious hats on and discuss the topic more honestly.
Your host is Paul Koullick, founder at Keeper. Guest appearances on every episode of other venture-backed tech founders.
All right.
Welcome back everybody.
This is everybody nobody listens to this.
No one has ever heard this show,
but we're gonna try something new.
If you have listened to the first
two episodes of Bad Startup Advice
just know that the format today
is gonna be totally different.
So if you liked it too bad, but
if you didn't, you're welcome.
I don't know why you're still
listening, but you are welcome.
With me today.
I have Eric.
Eric and I are buds from from college.
Hey everybody.
What's up?
Really excited to be here and
thanks for having me on the show.
Paul.
Super excited that you're doing this.
Yeah, me too.
I think Eric and I may may end up
creating a new format for this show.
Eric, I think correctly noted that.
This didactic style of like us focusing on
a topic and then pretending to be experts
on that topic might not be as fun as us
just being ourselves and talking about
things that are top of mind and hopefully
interesting to the, to you guys as well.
Yeah, it's a lot more work too, I feel.
Yeah.
Also, we're lazy.
That's the other, that's
the other piece of this.
We're incredibly lazy and so
we're gonna try something new.
What we're gonna do today is we each
brought a couple of topics that will
bring up in, in order and talk about them.
But it'll be pretty unstructured.
We'll start with with maybe introductions
or don't do the classic VC introduction.
, just give like a, give like
an authentic you're a guy at a
bar, introduction to yourself.
I'm a guy at a bar.
First of all, I almost never go to bars.
Yeah.
All right.
You're already unrelatable.
Tell us about how you're just an everyman.
Oh, man.
Yeah, no I'm Eric, I'm Paul's
friend, and I've been living in nsf.
Like eight years now.
Seven, eight years, and been in the
tech scene since we were outta college.
So it's really cool to
be doing this podcast.
I'm originally from around here.
I'm from Sonoma County,
an hour north of sf.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
So I've been here a while and
I like the Bay Area a lot.
Eric.
Yeah, Eric was, so we
went to college together.
We met through swim club.
Is that how we met swimming?
I think so.
Okay.
Yeah.
And I remember I don't know if I've
told you this directly, but I remember
you were that college acquaintance's
mind who was like, Just a little
bit better than me at everything.
I dunno about that.
That's how I felt.
I remember, that's how I felt.
I remember thinking like, okay,
Eric, you were, you're a better
swimmer than me, for sure.
So I remember there was this moment, okay,
so he's better than swimming than me.
Fine.
That's not really what I
care about though, right?
Because I, I was really into working and
I really wanted to like, have a fun job.
And but then Eric became a Google
apm, which is like for folks who.
I think everyone knows at this
point that's like the coolest job
that you could get out of college.
And then Eric started his
company before me and has reached
every milestone before me.
So I'm being facetious, but there
is that element where I think for a
long time I, we knew each other as
acquaintance and I thought of you as
the really cool guy that, that was
always doing the things I wanted to do.
And now we've become closer
friends over time and.
We hang out on.
That's good.
On weekends.
If you want to keep compare, man I
feel like you're better looking at me.
Oh, that's true.
And you're a little taller.
That's what I have to go off of.
I'm gonna take that one.
I'm gonna take the W there.
Yeah, you can't teach height.
Oh yeah.
No, but actually, no, this is actually a
good topic to maybe even start on Uhhuh.
Cause I actually, I was thinking
about this I feel like this like
idea of comparing a lot Yeah.
Is pretty.
At least I feel like I did
that a lot when I was younger.
And I don't think it's a
great way to live your life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially I think, we are a particularly
toxic subset of humanity that like,
that was forced into an environment like
Harvard that was extremely competitive.
It was hard not to feel that way when
everyone around you felt that way.
Yeah.
And so I think, yeah, I think we probably.
Had a crash land from that worldview?
I also think okay, I'll share a
funny story that I was yeah, just
thinking about basically I remember
this one day that I was like, I had
this day where I was just like, wow.
I'm like not as good
at anyone at anything.
It was weird.
Whoa.
Basically you, I basically, I remember
like going to work that day and
then just like reading about some.
Competitor who was just like killing
it like way better than this.
So this is more recent?
No.
This is like a few years ago.
Yeah.
I feel like lately my mentality's
changed a lot, so it's been better.
Yeah.
But I remember okay, just reading
out some competitor that's like
killing it and I'm like, okay.
Yeah, this guy who started this
company, he's like younger than me.
His company's more successful.
Yeah.
And it's okay, but that's fine.
I'm at least I go to the gym, I'm like,
I'm stronger than this guy, at least.
And then I remember going to the gym and
then I was lifting with my other friend
and he's just so much stronger than me.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
And I'm like, you know what?
That's fine.
At least like I'm better at Whatever,
playing Super Smash Bros or whatever,
and then he's better at that too.
Getting, I'm getting crushed at that too.
So it's I feel I feel like you have to
love yourself for who you are, which
is like more like the better mentality.
For sure.
For sure.
It's it's, it sounds almost cliche,
but it is a lesson that took many
and is taking many, so much time.
It's, so I think for me more recently,
I've been married for almost five years.
There's.
I, we both turned 30.
I think there's all these things
that start to happen and what I,
what my mind always goes to is
that we have 60 more years of life.
Yeah.
And the thing that's really gonna
matter in 30 years from now, Is
that, that my back is still good.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
That and it just doesn't, so these
things don't, everybody struggles.
You have a kid with
autism, you just, yeah.
Just like life is hard and complex and
everyone has difficulties and it's just
so much work to try to you can't compare.
It's not apples to apples.
Yeah.
Nothing is it's, everything's so
different and difficult and I don't yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like you're just, everybody
becomes very unique in their own way and
you have to discover that for yourself.
And I think another part of it for
me to unlearn was just like, I think
when I was growing up, it was a thing
that my parents did was like, compare
me to other Jimmy, other people.
Jimmy does this and he's
president of the debate club.
Yeah.
But also when you're younger, there's
more things that you could compare on.
Oh, you could compare your
grades or your s a T scores.
Yeah.
But then I feel in some sense,
as you get older, you become.
More of an a unique individual or you have
to at least discover them for yourself.
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
I think it's also really easy to
do with relationships, for example.
I think.
This is classic.
My wife and I talk about this all the
time where we'll meet a couple and
we're like, oh my God, they're perfect.
They must not have these
Friday night fights like we do.
And we and it like weighs on us.
We're like, oh, why do we keep
having these little TIFs over stupid
things, why can't we just be happy?
And it's who care, who knows?
Maybe it's true, maybe they don't have any
of those tips, but what does that matter?
Yeah.
It's like we just need to, we have
60 more years of life together.
Let's figure it out.
Let's figure out how to like Yeah.
Make the most of these weird, idiosyncrasy
idiosyncracies that the two of us have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And look at you getting
in insecure about it.
At least you're married.
I'm trying to where you were at.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny how that works.
It's a very empowering to feel that way
to re to not be comparing to anyone.
Yeah.
It's such a wonderful, incredible
place to, to get to, you have to
really retrain yourself though.
Yeah.
To get, I don't even think
I'm there, but of course.
And you're, and periodically
I'll slip back into it.
Yeah.
I'll, and I hopefully just over
time, I do that less often.
Yeah.
And I'm just a happier,
better person, yeah.
Yeah.
But that's a good, that was a good intro.
It's funny.
Yeah, I guess I've, this is my first time
in the show, so o other things about me.
Let's see.
I'm Asian.
I guess you can't really tell
that maybe from the podcast.
Or maybe you can let me know if you can.
That'd be crazy if you could
read my accent or something.
So that's a pretty cool
part of my identity.
Yeah.
That I do think, I think
about a lot at least.
Really?
Yeah.
Just what it means to be like
an Asian guy in the tech scene.
And it also just carries over to
just the things I like, the things I
like to do, the things I like to eat.
And you're part of this
affinity group, essentially.
So is that something, is that appreciation
for your background something that
has grown over time or has that
always been part of your personality
and your things that you care about?
I definitely think the awareness
of it has grown over time.
Yeah.
For me, yeah.
I can't speak for everybody, but at least
for me, I think when I was growing up, it
wasn't really something I thought about.
And now that I'm older, it's
yeah, hey, this is something
that is part of who I am.
And it reflects in my
friends, my own values.
Yeah.
And the way I approach things.
Yep.
And yeah, I think that's cool.
I think it's cool to have that.
Yeah.
I think it's cool to have
this other identity that, you.
It shapes you in a way.
Yeah.
You, did you go to a school
with where you were the only
Asian kid or were there a bunch?
I wouldn't say I was the only Asian kid.
Yeah.
There, there was a few, but it
was def it was in Sonoma County.
Yeah.
It was like a pretty, pretty white,
yeah, pretty white small town.
Yeah.
Our school is I'm white by the way.
I know you've all been able
with wondering With my race.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So small school with like mostly kind
of white vineyard kids or whatever?
Yeah.
No, it wasn't, it was, it's a, we
were, it was a very working class town.
Okay.
It was a pelvic school.
Okay, got it.
Yeah.
And no, but it was, I think it was,
it's funny cuz like when I was growing
up there, I never really thought
about the fact that I was Asian.
And it wasn't until, when
I was in college that I.
Met other people who were in
that kind of similar situation.
Yeah.
Is it a, so you used the word Asian
you, would it be more accurate
to say Asian American or you, or
really you do really mean Yeah.
Like how do you feel close to
just like people that you know,
went to college in Shanghai?
Oh no.
Yeah.
Asian.
Asian.
As an Asian American for sure.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
They should even change it.
They should call it American Asian.
Nice.
But hey I'm not the, I'm not the
decider on that kind of thing.
Yeah.
What are the and what are the things
that, what are some example, for example,
like what's something that later in
life you've been like, you know what
I'm gonna just like rice cookers.
Like rice cookers are awesome.
I'm sorry For the record.
Be casually racist on your own podcast.
Casually racist.
I dunno.
Are there things that like you
stepped into later in life that you
didn't necessarily think you would?
You gave me slippers when I came in today.
That's Asian, right?
Is that I've always
been told that's Asian.
So I grew up in a household with slippers.
Okay.
And, I, and that was because my, I was
born in Japan and there was this sense
of I didn't know you were born in Japan.
Yeah, just randomly.
But the, that was like, my parents
were like yeah, we just do some
things in the Japanese way.
And I was like, okay, cool.
Okay.
But yeah.
Anyway, I, maybe I have a,
I'm somewhat multicultural.
Maybe I have a tiny, whatever.
Don't be, don't bash me just yet.
Okay.
But yes.
Back to the question.
So what any examples of
how that's manifested.
I think.
Whether any Asian, most Asians,
whether you like it or not, you're
part of this affinity group.
So I feel like there's just this whole
subculture of what it means to be Asian.
Like whether it's on, niche
Facebook groups or whatever.
Not even niche, like just subtle
Asian traits, that kind of thing.
Or TikTok, or now you have all these.
Asian movie stars and celebrities and
it's just cool to see that representation
everywhere and be like, Hey, I'm
part of this like affinity group.
And on some level, yeah, that's right,
everybody's different, but on some level
maybe you could connect in some way.
Yeah, so I do think it's cool to be
part of that and just to see this
group build as a block over time.
Yeah.
Day to day, I guess I don't think
about it actively, but I think
there's moments where I'm like,
Hey, It's awesome that I am Asian.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's cool.
I, I've had a similar kind of coming
of age arc with, so I'm Russian.
Whatever.
I'm Ukrainian.
And back then it was all the same.
And I've also stepped
into that more and more.
I used to be like, who cares?
Yeah.
What does that mean?
Yeah.
And now I'm like, yeah, there are certain.
Cultural things that just, that I
do appreciate about that background.
And it's interesting how that happens.
Maybe that happens throughout your life,
maybe this is there's this coming of
thing that happens in your twenties Yeah.
In early thirties.
I don't know.
I wonder if, do you think it
would just get more and more
into being Asian over time?
It's hard to say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I started cooking borsch actually.
Yeah.
And I'm like reading all this.
I don't know.
So block literature these days
and just, yeah, I'm just way
more into it than I ever have.
If I think if you had pointed to
younger Paul and been like, yeah, you're
gonna get really into this Russian
stuff, you would've been like, what?
Why?
I don't know.
That's funny.
Yeah, we got a white guy and an
Asian guy doing a tech podcast.
Doing a tech podcast.
Yep.
There you go.
About his NSF cliche as it gets cool.
Shall we dive into our fishbowl?
I'm down.
Yeah, you go first.
All right, I'll go first.
There's been this recent wave of
there's been the, what, a whatever,
the PR wave, what is it called
when there's like a news wave?
Anyway, there's been that,
I'm gonna cut all this out.
Where Charlie from Javis or whatever
that the woman who started the spotlight.
Oh, yeah.
Charlie Chavis.
Yeah.
Charlie, yeah.
Okay.
Her name is Charlie Javis.
Her name is Charlie Javis.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
So she basically made up she sold,
she had this, Student loan company.
And she sold it Frank to JP Morgan.
Frank of course, of just
a single friendly name.
That's a classic.
She sold it for like a hundred, 200
mil, 200 million, one 50, I thought.
Yeah.
One 50.
Okay.
Yeah.
To JP Morgan.
And then they, and then basically
the users weren't real, allegedly.
That's freaking wild though, right?
Like how do you get into that
kind of mindset to pull that off?
It's a good question.
On one hand I agree that it's wild Uhhuh.
On the other hand, I think it,
it's to, it makes total sense.
To fake it until you make
a kind of way of thinking.
Yeah, I guess so.
Okay, so let's, what do we know?
What are the facts here?
Maybe before we dive into opinions,
what do we actually know She did.
She had generated.
Credentials for these users.
Yeah.
She had emails like, so she
randomly generated some email?
Email or she had asked someone else
to random, I think she, I asked, yeah.
She basically hired a data scientist.
Okay.
And asked them to create 10 or 20 million
fake users or something like a contractor.
I think it was like a data scientist
from NYU or something like that.
Okay.
We should verify.
Yeah.
Whatever.
We're not experts on the news that's okay.
But Okay.
That makes sense.
And.
Yeah, the thing I keep coming back
to is how do you sleep at night?
Yeah.
Do you think you could pull that off?
I can't even, so I've had moments in
my startup where I, early on we we
have two ways of calculating revenue.
And we don't quite know what the
last day of the month, we don't quite
know what our revenue's gonna be.
So we have this range of what we
could report and some, and I think
I remember, especially early on, I
was so obsessed with our monthly.
Growth number that I would just
be like, man, it would look
really nice if this number was,
was whatever, 12% instead of 10%.
And Okay.
Yeah, let me just be optimistic
and it just eats away at you.
Wow.
And I just feel so, and I'll, do
you know like when moments, like
when that has happened, you spend
the next month worrying about how
well next month at what point are we
gonna calibrate with the truth again?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it, and I, so I think I just
don't have the stomach for it.
Yeah.
I think I would.
Yeah, I've, I, a long time ago, made
peace with the fact that I just have
to always stick to my principles.
Yeah.
If I'm gonna survive I have to just
tell the truth and just be extremely
transparent and that's, my, my own
weakness as a founder in many ways.
I don't think that's a weakness at all.
I think it's hard to do it that way.
I would argue that there are times where
like one example of where you shouldn't
tell the truth is like when you're
raising money, you gotta be confident.
I think it's good to put
your best foot forward.
You shouldn't lay it all out there.
It's yeah, you don't want to go
on your first date being the worst
version of yourself kind of thing.
Yeah, yeah.
But at the same time, I don't think
it's, I think it's a fine line between
being, putting your best foot forward.
Yeah.
And being locked, like
straight up lying stuff.
Yeah.
There is certainly a line between.
Actually hiring someone to
generate fake email account.
Yeah.
Actively creating lies.
Yeah.
You have this like string
that ties you back to a high
integrity version of yourself.
And at all times you just want to
have that string pretty taught.
You wanna have, make sure that if
something happens and you have to explain
it, you have a very plausible oh yeah.
The numbers hadn't fully come
in, so we just said this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel, I get extremely anxious when
I get sense that string getting taught.
And I like, I really freak out.
How about you?
Can you imagine it?
You know what's interesting is I feel like
I've always been trying to be on the side
of Hey, keep it a hundred percent real.
Really always be honest with yourself.
Oh, good for you.
Yeah, and be transparent about it.
The interesting thing is I guess what
I could understand coming outta this
fraud stuff is like the hard part is
when you keep it that way, and then.
You realize that the people who
aren't playing the game that way Yeah.
Are getting ahead of you.
Oh, for sure.
Then you're like, wait, what's going on?
It's like, why is it working like this?
Yeah.
It's like other people are like,
either they're creating the hype
or whatever it is, they just better
dress, the window dressing part of it.
Yeah.
But then they're winning too.
Yeah.
So it's doesn't that hurt?
That hurts.
But I think for me it's like there's no.
Other way I could do it.
Going back to what you're saying about
sleeping at night, it's just like
you have to be honest with yourself.
Actually, so this ties back to this
question of does that make us worse
founders, because I think there is a
correlation between being a really good
visionary type fundraiser and leader.
And like believing your own.
Your own vision.
Yeah.
And sometimes that means like
your own vision or your own life.
Your own lie.
Yeah.
So you basically, I think there is
that element where like maybe the mo
the charitable interpretation here is
Charlie was like, this is the future.
We're building the
future of student loans.
And it just so happens that I
have this barrier in my way.
I need to raise money or I
need to sell and make, and have
the time to build this future.
But in order to do that, I
just need to do this one thing.
Generate whatever, 20 million fake emails,
and then that'll let me get there because
I have such a belief that I shouldn't let
this little silly thing get in my way.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And honestly, the craziest part
is probably like for every Charlie
story, there's like a dozen who did
that and then got away and got away.
Yeah, totally.
Which is like the scariest part.
Totally.
Yeah.
So certainly at this
stage I cannot imagine it.
I.
Can you imagine that party?
The, like the acquisition party, right?
So here she is, right?
Charlie Jamis, like her family
calls her, all her friends call her.
Congratulations.
I know.
It's been a crazy ride.
You deserve it.
Oh my God.
Can you imagine?
Yeah.
That'd be how you would feel.
Oh, I feel so, I just wouldn't, icky.
I, yeah.
Did she tell, did she have someone
close to her that she told, or did
she keep it all on her own shoulders?
The data scientist person definitely knew.
I get, she probably made 'em
sign a bunch of paperwork.
Or, that's crazy though.
But I'm just too weak.
I can't, could not carry that
kind of thing on my shoulders.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would buckle instantly.
I would have to tell someone.
I don't think it makes us worse, founders.
I just think it makes you
a certain type of founder.
You may not be able to
create the hype Yeah.
Necessarily that a really
good storyteller could.
Yeah.
But I wouldn't go as far to say great
story tells are always liars either.
I think there's a good way to do it.
Yeah.
And keep it real.
Yeah.
But, not cross that line.
Yeah.
Yeah, personally I think what she
did was pretty, pretty messed up.
I think she deserves the
jail time that's coming.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think if there's a spectrum of
integrity in founders, it sounds
like you are you're quite far on
the like, high integrity side.
I'm.
I'm, and Charlie, Janice
is on the other side.
I'm like, somewhere on that spectrum.
I have, look, I, I'm not proud to
say it, but I have been in situa
in pitching situations where I, my
adrenaline is high and someone asks
the question and I know the right
answer, and I know it's not quite
exactly the answer that's fully true,
but I just say the thing and I, and I.
No, I get that.
I get that.
I think, yeah, you have you don't
want to just lay out every single
weakness that you have, like as soon as
you're in one of those conversations,
that's just how these things work.
Yeah.
You have to play the
game to a certain extent.
Yeah.
But I hope I, I think my take is you
just, you don't wanna lie about anything.
Yeah.
I think it's okay to put your
best foot forward, but when
you're straight up lying, then.
Y I just feel like that's always gonna
come back to bite you gi give me the
most charitable I interpretation you
could possibly imagine for Charlie Javis.
Charlie Javis.
Great person.
Yeah.
Really just wanted to make
a difference in the world.
Give me that version.
Like the best of the best
to the best of your ability.
I just, I don't know.
I don't know how you get around
the making the fake data.
Okay.
Okay.
Wait, so imagine this, right?
I don't know exactly the
state of her company, but
maybe it was like on the rock.
Maybe it was difficult.
She had hired all these people.
She loves her team.
Yeah.
And she was late in, in
talks with JP Morgan.
Yeah.
She had the like strategy
and vision level alignments.
She like absolutely needs it to work.
Everything's in place.
Yeah.
Oh, but there's one more thing.
Yeah.
One more thing.
We would like to just, oh, can we
get access to to that user list?
I just wonder if it's like, How
could it have been iterative?
There's gotta be some way.
It was, if it must have felt iterative
at the time, and it was just, she was
so close and she just felt okay but I
feel like these things don't happen.
Overnight either.
I feel like it's probably
a series of, yeah.
Of lying to yourself or
something that kind of built up.
Maybe it was that in the first call they
were like, how many users do you have?
And she just choked and
was like, 25 million.
And then the rest of the conversation
was like, this does, this won't matter
because they're not actually gonna buy me.
And then the conversation
got more and more serious.
And then she was like
shit, either I'm a liar.
Yeah.
Or I just, just, yeah.
Do the thing I said.
Yeah.
And either way.
I think there's gonna be more and
more stories like this coming out.
There's the I r l founder guy.
Yeah.
And they're Sam.
Sam Beckman Fried.
They're Sam Bankman Fried.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's the Theranos girl.
Yeah.
I can't even remember her
name at the top of my head.
Yeah.
Whatever.
Holmes.
Oh yeah.
Elizabeth Holmes.
Yeah.
And I just feel now with the recession
and everything, these things are
like, everything's coming out.
Yeah.
It's gonna be bad.
I get it.
But it's gonna be bad, and
I feel bad for these people.
I you talked about them, you
think they deserve the jail time.
I get that sentiment, but at the
same time, I just feel bad for her.
I feel like she had some abusive
childhood where she was told she
wasn't good enough, and then she just
needed to this was her way of proving
something to herself for someone.
And I just, yeah, people should follow
the law and people like this should
go to jail, but I still feel bad.
Good for you.
You've seen the humanity in everybody.
Here's to our innovators, not
every experiment succeeds.
Yeah.
What do you think about, speaking of
experiments, what do you think about Bard?
I you tried it?
I tried to sign up.
Okay.
And was blocked.
Yeah.
I just had immediate
legitimate signup hurdles.
So you haven't tried it?
And I haven't, and I heard it was
bad, so I was like, okay, that's
all the information I need for now.
And I moved on.
How's it been?
I got on with my personal account.
I don't think If you do your personal
account, I think it, it'll work.
Okay.
Yeah.
But they just launched like coding.
It's interesting cuz I think Google
has, they're in a kind of a tough spot.
Yeah.
Cause they need to keep driving
traffic to their For sure.
Web webmasters.
Yep.
And so this Bard thing,
it shows you the links.
It tries to show you links from
where it got the information.
Yep.
Or it also has a link that's
search this topic with Google.
Yeah.
And I don't know, it's, I
don't know how well that works.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean they're gonna totally cannibalize.
There's no world in which
this doesn't cannibalize.
I, we are, we actually both run
businesses that have a substantial
part of our traffic coming from seo.
There's no world in which we're gonna
get the value that we're getting today if
the user never has to go to our website.
Yeah.
Which is scary to think about.
Super scary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially cuz it was like
trained on all these websites.
Or at least the AI stuff.
Totally.
And so we're just gonna have,
we're gonna have been the suckers.
We produced the work and
we got nothing in return.
Maybe.
Maybe.
Yeah.
That was a topic on my list too.
AI race it's, we both
live in San Francisco.
We're both in tech and
and fa and startups.
It has felt, I'm for me, it has felt like
the last month and a half has been this
mail storm of, of the future is here.
What are you doing?
And this is crazy.
Like everyone's trying to rush and
beat each other to, to whatever.
For us it was ai, accountants,
and there's just so much going on.
Every, all of our investors
were like, you guys.
Need to be the AI for tax company.
If you are not the AI for tax
company, someone else will be
like, get your shit in order.
It's just felt very intense.
How has it felt for you?
Yeah, it's been stuff like,
stuff just happens every week.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
I'm not even sure if I talk
about this in my intro.
I'm a co-founder at Kaun.
Yeah.
We make a video editing website.
It's uhhuh, I guess there's so much
happening in the world of content
generation, even like video generation.
And I think on one hand it's interesting
because it's still developing, it's
still new, so it's like hard to
know what exactly is gonna happen.
And on the other hand, it's
frightening because it's like,
You need to rush to adopt this or
figure out what to do about it.
Yeah.
Otherwise your competitors
are gonna do it.
Yeah.
Or it could just automate
away your entire company.
Totally.
Totally.
So you never know what it's gonna do in
the future, so you're scared about that.
Totally.
I felt both of those
things in equal parts.
The fear and the excitement.
Yeah.
At different times I felt fear, and then
at other times I felt excitement and it
was just, I would have these, I would
have investors of mine forwarding me.
Monthly investor update emails
from competitors of mine Oh, Jesus.
That were just like saying that they're
getting really into this AI thing, and
he was like, yep, make sure you don't,
make sure that you beat 'em to the punch.
Like stuff like that.
Yeah.
It is crazy though because it's,
it is a wave and there's stuff
that's happening, but also.
I'm not an AI person.
Yeah.
Myself, I'm not a researcher.
Yeah.
So I do feel a little
bit at the whim of Yeah.
The AI overlords who are
developing the actual technology.
Totally.
Because really I think of ourselves
as more just implementing it or Yeah.
Trying to make it useful.
Yeah.
But yeah, who knows what'll happen.
Maybe the overlords will just.
Build everything that we already have.
Yeah.
I certainly hope that's not the case.
This wave is incredibly easy to use.
I almost feel like that's
the opposite problem.
Where you don't need any skills.
Yeah.
To use it.
Yeah.
My concern is more that we, we
spent five years building a bunch of
deterministic rules-based software.
Yeah.
And someone else can now just
rebuild this business way faster
and catch up to where we are.
Like our big moat is in
some ways, Evaporating.
Whereas but we do, we will get to use
the software, the, the technology,
but it's, and that part is easy.
It's just but what?
I think it's how you look at it, right?
Yeah.
Because like maybe you can still be
the market leader of what you're doing.
Yeah.
And then you can use that to do
what you're doing even faster.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
I guess it's a race.
Startups have always been a race
between, the startup is trying to get
distribution before the big company
gets innovation, gets products, right?
Yeah.
And I'm worried just how like this
l m thing is really easy to use.
Yeah.
So I think that even Intuit and h and r
Block are gonna figure it out maybe before
we can reach their scale of distribution.
Oh, interesting.
You know what I mean?
I like when the internet came around or
whatever, it was like you had to have
skills, you had to understand packets.
Yeah.
And, yeah.
Domains and there's just no.
There's no barrier.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That part is weird.
Yeah.
It's the same for video editing too.
Like you could imagine like running
your video and instead of using software
to edit your video and controlling
it, you just tell the AI what you
want to happen into your video.
Yeah.
And it just does that.
Yeah.
Luckily, I feel like we're still a few
years away from that though and maybe
we could be the editor to do that.
Yeah.
So I think.
It depends how you look at it.
Totally.
I, so my nascent opinion on this
is that distribution is still king.
Yeah.
And that because of how easy it is
to adopt, it's more about like you
really, the fact that Caping has
built up, this massive, I don't know
how many millions of users you guys
have, but many millions of users.
Then you've built trust and matters a lot
more than, being the first to have this
particular version of LLM infused product.
Because you could just see if
someone builds a thing that's
cool, you can just build it.
Yeah.
You guys are capable of doing that.
And then you'll have the
distribution and the product.
Yeah.
It just doesn't seem like one of those
tech waves that's all that hard to
like the whatever, inter innovators,
the chasm, what is it called?
Crossing the chasm.
And the innovators line.
That doesn't seem that
powerful on this one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cuz you could add it to your product.
Yeah, exactly.
I would much rather be someone who
has the distribution right now.
Than someone who has
a couple of engineers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Distribution is just the
hardest part about anything.
Anything.
Yeah.
And it's such a saturated
market in almost every area.
Yeah.
That it's hard to really
get your message through.
Yeah.
Why don't we, So we did this really
quick context at the beginning Okay.
Where we just did you're at a
bar, introduce yourself at a bar.
Yeah.
So we did the super casual, like
you're meeting Eric and he's a bud.
And now let's do the,
Eric, introduce yourself.
How you would at a conference.
At a conference, or alright.
At a professional event.
Let's get the, let's get the,
you can brag a little bit.
Yeah.
Just work wise.
So I'm a co-founder at Kip Wing.
We make a video editing software
platform where you can create
videos with your whole team.
And our whole thing is to help you
create more content and less time.
Basically, we know that people
want to make videos at the
speed of light these days.
You gotta post it on TikTok,
on Instagram, on YouTube.
And so we want to have all the tools
available for creator to be able to
do that across all the platforms.
And yet prior to the startup,
I was at PM at Google.
And yet before that I hadn't.
I met Paul at Harvard.
Nice.
Still a very humble version of it.
You can imagine a version where Eric
talks about how his company has,
what, 3 million users or something.
How many users does Kipling have?
The company has, I think we have,
yeah, I think we have around
three or 4 million monthlies.
Oh yeah.
No big deal.
Three or 4 million monthly
active user spokes.
Great.
Yeah.
It's, but it's not at the scale of Google,
it still very much feels like a startup.
There's still a lot for us to figure out.
Yep.
But it's, it has been quite a journey
to build the business from day one.
Yeah.
From making our first product and tools
to making our first YouTube videos to now.
Growing it and focusing
on marketing teams.
Yeah.
Growing out an enterprise type offering
and just growing revenue over time.
Yeah.
So I think there's been so much
learning along that journey.
Yeah.
It's an interesting topic because
I, so as I watched you do that more
professional introduction, you didn't
brag nearly as much as you could.
And I just was just thinking about that.
As a phenomenon where I, I do
the same thing where I really, I
just like really hate bragging or
like when other people do that.
So I give this really low down version.
Whenever I talk to anyone, I usually
focus on stuff that's going wrong.
I usually I'll meet someone at
a party and I'll be like, Yeah.
I'm the founder and CEO of a tax company.
It's been tough, it's been, I'll go
into this and then they'll walk away
from that conversation and be like,
oh, this is a, some struggling founder
who has no idea what he's doing.
And I'm like, oh, wow.
That's what you took away.
I thought I was being just
authentic and likable.
Interesting.
Do you ever get that?
I think it's, I just feel like
the opposite is so annoying to me.
Like I've been to so many of these dinners
where people are just, Talk about Yeah.
Their companies and who they know
and how they're just crushing it
and I don't know, that kind of
thing just doesn't give me energy.
Yeah.
I think now that I've
been in it for a while.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I try to not I don't like
approaching it that way.
Yeah.
But I could see how you
need to in some situations.
Yeah.
I think there's some middle ground.
Yeah.
Where you're like, yeah.
We have, it's been good in many ways.
We are.
Are two extremely successful, series
A companies that, that have both
are like, cashflow positive or
getting close to it and whatever.
And that's like a lot to be proud of.
I like a lot of people would look at that
and say, oh my god, you've you made it.
Yeah.
But it feels so far fr from that.
Yeah.
It really does.
It feels so far from that.
Yeah.
And.
So I know that just for myself, like
I, if I do the super authentic version
with everyone, where if I'm at a party
and someone asks me what I do and I
give them the super authentic version,
it drain it, that actually drains me.
Because I find myself like,
look, this doesn't person, this
person doesn't need to know.
I'm not like, they're not
gonna be my best friend.
I don't need to, I don't need
to open up my soul to them.
Yeah.
That's not really the
purpose of that question.
They were just being polite.
Yeah.
So I've been working on a version of, yep.
We're, founder and CEO of
a tax software company.
It's been a hell of a ride.
Okay.
That's literally it.
That's it.
I just end there because they don't care.
I'm just like, they don't, if they
wanna know more, they can ask me more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's the way to do that.
But hell of a ride is like enough
to both not get me down and
force me to think about things.
Yeah.
But also is not saying that we're.
It's not being boastful, it just
says it's been a hell of a ride.
That's all.
It's Kip Wing has definitely
been a hell of a ride.
Yeah, there you go.
Hell of a ride.
I like it.
Maybe I'll start using it.
Yeah.
It's been a hell of a ride.
And and then they can filter out
if they actually want to have a
conversation, we can have a conversation.
If Yeah, they don't, that's fine too.
Yeah.
So interesting.
Thanks for sharing.
I think it's also a little different.
You are the founder and ceo and
I'm not the CEO of Cap Point.
And I think when you're the ceo,
you really do have to be that
evangelist, storyteller, and really
be selling like just to anyone.
Like I think you gotta sell to
investors, prospective customers, yeah.
People that you may wanna
recruit in the future.
And that is like a core part of your job.
Yeah.
And luckily I'm more on the
product and engineering side.
Yeah.
And I delegate a lot of
that to my co-founder.
Yep.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
It's exhausting to constantly
be selling and Yeah.
I It's every day.
It's every day.
Yeah.
Because you're selling it
to your own team too, right?
So you have to, the only trick is
just to, to have a thing you believe
in that's both authentic and Yeah.
And motivational.
That's startups though.
That's, you have to bring, you have
to put in that energy to bring that
thing in the world, otherwise Yeah.
It's just not gonna happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's true.
That's true.