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Explore how the social construct of race and racial oppression operates at multiple levels with a rotating focus on different social systems. Connect with Austin-area justice movement organizers and everyday people with relevant lived experience to lay out historical context, current affairs, and creative possibilities for a liberated future.
Greetings, y'all. This is Stacey Fraser. Pronouns are she and they, and you are listening to racism on the levels, a monthly show in the Austin Cooperative Radio Hour Collective that explores how the human designed constructive race operates persistently at the internal, interpersonal, cultural, institutional, and systemic levels with a steadfast focus on creative possibilities for liberation both in this moment and beyond. The views expressed here are not necessarily those of the coop board of directors, staff, volunteers, or underwriters. I am a justice movement weaver, a nonviolence conflict reconciliation trainer, a racial healing facilitator.
Stacie Freasier:I'm mom to a 6 year old named Rumi, who is my navigational compass. My social location is white bodied, queer, disabled, midlife, midclass, graduate school educated, 5th gen Texan, and I am culturally Lutheran and Buddhist practicing, in these days in the tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh. This show's purpose is to hold space for conversational format, story sharing, information sharing, gathering, and weaving with Austin area folks who are shining their liberatory lights, be their healers, guides, storytellers, experimenters, artists, frontline responders, visionaries, builders, caregivers, disruptors. And I wanna give a shout out to Deepa Iyer for framing those roles within the social change map as you may find yourself in 1 or more of those roles in the movement, and that may shift over time. And but it takes all those roles to make this happen.
Stacie Freasier:We are broadcasting and recording on on land protected by indigenous people, and settler colonialism has attempted their erasure. So I give thanks to the sauna, the humanos, the Tonkawa, the Lipan Apache, the Comanche Crudo, and others who have faced inconceivable losses and are still here, and I thank them for their efforts stewarding this land. This show centers justice and historical truth when we face it can be really powerfully healing. I invite you to join me in reclamation efforts by visiting native hyphen land dotca. My guest on today's show is Marissa Rivera.
Stacie Freasier:Hi. Welcome.
Marissa Rivera:I love that intro. There was so much said and shared, and I love it. Thank you so much for inviting me and doing this work and creating space.
Stacie Freasier:Thank you, and I appreciate, our connections known and unknown to each other.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Yeah. Should we do a quick, like, meet cute on how we met? Yeah. That was that was
Stacie Freasier:remember how?
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. We were we were in a focus group, right, about equity in Austin, for the hotel occupant occupancy tax program. And we found ourselves in the same small group, and I think figured out we were both Yappers with very much the same, same interest and passions. So I'm really glad you reached out, and we could spend a little one on one time with you, me, and maybe a couple thousand of our friends listening.
Stacie Freasier:Exactly. And beyond because we're gonna record and share the archive. So you just never know who may stumble upon this at some point and be, informed and uplifted and motivated to use their voice too, which is what we're doing here Love it. Using our voice. So, before we move any further, what are your pronouns preferred pronouns?
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Marisa Rivera. Pronouns, she, her, ea. I'm a queer native Tejana, born in San Antonio. North side of San Antonio, right on the edge, like, way before it was suburbanized.
Marissa Rivera:It was mostly, like, goats and cows and chickens back when I was growing up. But then my my dad got a job with the state here, in Austin. And so that's when my family started transitioning to Austin. Spent the last couple of years here before then taking off for Houston. And I did my undergrad at Rice and very quickly realized my heartburned in Central Texas and Barton Springs.
Marissa Rivera:So came right back home, and started my professional journey after undergrad, and, yeah, I've just never left.
Stacie Freasier:Were you north of North Star Mall?
Marissa Rivera:Oh my gosh. Yeah. No. I was so the way I describe it growing up, so, I was, like, north of the medical center. So, basically, it was, like, the USAA campus and then Hebner Oaks before there was ever any buildings.
Marissa Rivera:And that's what I mean. It was like it was just land. There were no buildings, no development. So, yeah, it's really unique. You know, I did leave there when I was a teenager.
Marissa Rivera:So I really don't know much about San Antonio. I, of course, go back for Spurs games. But, you know, culturally, you know, my my heart definitely belongs a little bit there, but I feel like I've really grown into who I am here Mhmm. In Austin. South Austin in particular.
Stacie Freasier:Say that again?
Marissa Rivera:South Austin in particular. Yes.
Stacie Freasier:Yes. And when did you, so when did you come back to Austin? What year ground us into
Marissa Rivera:some light? 2007. So that's when I graduated from Rice. And I, I got a job, working within the foster care system at a group home, And I lived on that campus for half the week, for 4 days a week, in Milieu with the teens. I had a group of teens between the age of 14 to actually 21.
Marissa Rivera:So I was helping guide the young folks who were aging out of foster care, whether it was representing them on a clinical level or educational level at their school, and or just really helping them figure out who they are, helping them heal from past traumas, as they began to really define what adulthood was gonna look like for them. So really rewarding work.
Stacie Freasier:Is that organization or agent she's still around?
Marissa Rivera:Very much is. Yeah. The settlement home, up north, over off of Peyton Jen and and Olin in 183. So, yeah, they're very much still around. They're still doing that work.
Marissa Rivera:It's it's very hard work. So I think after 2 years of that, you know, I became pretty burnt out. And mind you, I was a fresh 21 year old right out of college. And so it it really taught me a lot. And, from there, let me know that my heart definitely belonged in the clinical world, professionally speaking.
Marissa Rivera:So that's when I, went back to grad school to go ahead and get my master's in psychology.
Stacie Freasier:Got it. During that, chapter, was were there, were the racist policies and societal structures apparent?
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Very much so. You know, I I myself, I think, had some understanding of that growing up, attending PWIs my whole life, you know, always being a scholarship kid.
Stacie Freasier:What's PWI for the listeners?
Marissa Rivera:Predominantly white institutions. And so I had my own personal understanding, but I think because of going to PWIs, I had been in a lot of merit based circles, and I happened to be academically gifted. So in some ways, I was shielded, from the truth of what a lot of people experience who look like me or share some of the same intersections. And so working within that specific sphere of counseling, did very much open my young eyes to to the ills of the foster care system and and beyond too. You know?
Marissa Rivera:Like, how people actually got to that point where their kids either needed to be in the foster care system, or it was a last resort. So it was it was very interesting, and I I learned a lot. I learned a lot for sure, but very hard work, especially for such a young person. Right. Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:Those case files and the wonderful folks that I got to work with there, who I'm sure are now in their thirties. Yeah.
Stacie Freasier:So upon that foundational experience out of undergrad, you went back to
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. And that yeah. That's when I went to St. Ed's. Shout out St.
Marissa Rivera:Ed's for offering graduate education at night, because your girl still had to work full time. And by that time, my sister had started having kids, so I was kind of helping her during the day and, you know, weekends and such. So it was a nontraditional program, and I enjoyed it. You know? I I felt extremely well prepared.
Marissa Rivera:So, fortunately, it was it was pretty easy for me to glide through that.
Stacie Freasier:So what'd you study there?
Marissa Rivera:Counseling psychology. Yeah. And I I initially went the dual track, what we call, licensed professional counseling and licensed marriage and family therapy. And that's great. So I took all the coursework for that, and then when I got to practicum, if I wanted to stay on those tracks, I would need to
Stacie Freasier:important. Happening already on those?
Marissa Rivera:My relationship with them. I grew up in cancer, and I stepped away from it for a while, you know, just for to for my own personal healing journey, I guess you could say. I was in ballet, and so that certainly in the late nineties was not a kind kind world to female bodies. So when I
Stacie Freasier:How about bodies of color?
Marissa Rivera:Is that
Stacie Freasier:it to keep us rooted in the
Marissa Rivera:And that. I mean, I was I was very lucky to dance with Lauren Anderson who at the time was with Houston Ballet. And she was one of the only dark skinned women of color that I had ever seen in that world. So, yeah, absolutely. It was it was an interesting place.
Marissa Rivera:So, you know, when I came back home from college, I still didn't really reconnect with dance. I was really trying to figure out my own relationship with that.
Stacie Freasier:But
Marissa Rivera:I had friends who were musicians or artists, creatives, and just started helping them, whether it was helping them load and unload at shows, work in the merch table, work in the door. Like, whatever it was that they needed, I jumped in. And so that's when I really kind of immersed myself in that very unique and special culture that we have here in Austin. And so that's been a through line across my career because for me, although counseling psychology very much has its place in healing for folks, it's not accessible to everyone, nor is it appropriate for everyone at every point in their lives. So, I've always been a strong believer that the arts is presents alternative healing paths for folks to explore their narratives, communities, histories, and really kind of process their own stories through mediums that they connect with.
Marissa Rivera:So that that has been a through line. So I guess through there, you then kind of get my organizing. I mean, I've always been very much politically active here, in Austin in official and unofficial capacities. So, yeah, I guess you could say grassroots. Is that is that what the kids call it?
Stacie Freasier:Grassroots, grasstops, all these terms. Right?
Marissa Rivera:So, yeah,
Stacie Freasier:I would say you're you probably live in both as I do at this point. I I do grasstops organizing, and I do grassroots organizing. It's just, you know, using whatever privilege of access one acquires and has to
Marissa Rivera:That's it. You know? And I I was talking to a to a friend last week who were both in, you know, leadership positions and high profile positions. Both Latino, you know, come from what I call the geriatric millennial generation.
Stacie Freasier:I'm 45. Does that put me there?
Marissa Rivera:Well yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're on the cusp. I think, like, 44 is kind of I think 40 to 44 is, what I define as, like, the geriatric end.
Marissa Rivera:But, yeah, we were talking about that as, like, being Latinos in leadership spaces, and especially having the experience of attending PWIs and knowing how to talk that talk, knowing how to code switch very fluidly has definitely given me access to spaces, and given me the opportunity to open doors for others, and to use my voice. And I would say particularly in the last 10 years, that has really intensified. And I think some of that is, you know, Austin finally making space, for quote, unquote younger voices. Some voices from our generation, I think, are finally being given that space to kind of challenge some of the status quo systems, and ideas that, you know, those of us from Austin have known and seen very far very well, very intimately over the last 20 plus years.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. You mentioned 20 plus. Oh, gosh. Actually, before I go there Yeah. Let's go back for a second because you I'm intrigued by, and I want you to unpack a little more tell me more about how therapy may not be appropriate Yeah.
Stacie Freasier:For some. Oh. What do you mean by that?
Marissa Rivera:Alright. Pull up a chair, everyone. Well, so I'm gonna come at this from a clinical perspective, and then I'm gonna come at this from an intersectional perspective. And I speak about this actually pretty much anytime I guess lecture at the university is here. For people to really be ready to do depth work, you know, and I work mostly with folks who have complex trauma.
Marissa Rivera:It has to be an a very intentional decision to do that kind of work and go into spaces within ourselves, that have not been explored, and to allow somebody else, I. E. A therapist, in on that journey. You know? And not everybody's ready for that, and that's okay.
Marissa Rivera:You know? I meet people where they're at. The intersectional answer to that is that what we call therapy now very much is grounded in indigenous healing practices. Right? In Mexica culture, you know, we had and where we were talking to elders.
Marissa Rivera:Right? Like, if there was an issue that was talked about within community 1 on 1, and that's what I'm doing with clients in the therapy room. And there's many other aspects of, I think, what are increasingly empirically informed healing modalities within the world of psychotherapy, like somatic therapy, EMDR, polyvagal theory, that when you really dismantle them and break them apart, they're giving, quote, unquote, scientific names to practices that have always been within indigenous cultures. And when I use the word indigenous, I mean, for cultures grounded in the place in which they are. You know?
Marissa Rivera:So here, we might say native American, but there could also be indigenous African, indigenous European, so forth. So I think it's really important that, you know, we acknowledge both the knowledge, that science has brought forth, and the names and the dots it's helped connect. And we're also acknowledging maybe people have already been doing this, but they just weren't calling it that. And it really feels like increasingly we're having more of a full circle moment within psychology, to to acknowledge that. You know?
Marissa Rivera:That, cool. We have fMRI data now, and I love reading
Stacie Freasier:that data. FMRI?
Marissa Rivera:Functional magnetic resonance imaging. My background at Rice, I studied neuroscience and cognitive science. So I nerd out on that stuff all live long day. I love it. And I teach my associates to very much learn about that stuff and to question, to challenge, to be curious where those healing main modalities may have also been found, in other cultures and spaces throughout history.
Stacie Freasier:If you're just tuning in, you are listening to Racism on the Levels. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser. I am sitting here in exhilarating conversation with Marissa Rivera, and thank you for tuning in. If you are catching us streaming at k0op.org. If you're here in our physical backyard, 91.7 FM.
Stacie Freasier:So there is, well, a statement and a question for you, Marissa. So the first one is, a statement, and that is you're speaking to, how racism is operating within mental health as, you know, these practices have existed before the system was able to be built to, monetize those practices. Yes. And, also, the credit has been given to historically, predominantly white men
Marissa Rivera:Yep.
Stacie Freasier:For many of these practices.
Marissa Rivera:Absolutely. Yeah. That's that's precisely it. And the other thing that I always acknowledge when I'm teaching associates or in Gastroenterology is psychology was also used at its birth to harm people, whether it's folks like myself in the LGBTQI community or it was people of color. Right?
Stacie Freasier:What's an example of that?
Marissa Rivera:So, for instance, you know, the most pop you know, in the DSM, the diagnostic statistical manual, I'm realizing how much jargon I use. But in the DSM, when that was created, I wanna say in 1952, homosexuality was pathologized. Right? And that was not removed from the DSM until 1976, I wanna say. So things like that or even just the way in which we're talking about diagnoses.
Marissa Rivera:So I just had a wonderful, lecture at the UT, Steve Hicks School of Social Work. There's a professor there, an associate professor, Megan Butler, who teaches a graduate social work class on grief and loss. And so she had me come in and hold some space for what I love to talk about. And and, you know, one of those things is really kind of understanding what grief practices used to look like, and how they've become medicalized, and how we've really started to pathologize grief. So according to the DSM, right, prolonged grief disorder is any I'm not gonna quote this right on, but the gist of it is is if you are still having a response to grief after 12 months as an adult or after 6 months as a child, it is then diagnosed as prolonged grief disorder.
Marissa Rivera:When
Stacie Freasier:Which then means what in the flowchart?
Marissa Rivera:Like, what
Stacie Freasier:is that what implication would that have to get a diagnosis?
Marissa Rivera:And it it's such one it's it's binary in terms of, like, okay. So either you're grieving and you're not when grief is a lifelong process.
Stacie Freasier:Right. Like, they put a impose a timeline on grieving, first of all.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, and in some cultures, like, if you don't carry that through line of grief forward throughout your life, you are not being a good ancestor. Right?
Marissa Rivera:And there are cultures in which, like, you do have to get through the grief process so that that person can move on in the afterlife. But I would say, by and large, around the world, most cultures, like, have some sort of practice or thought around grief and loss and death and dying that extends throughout the whole lifetime, not just 12 months or 6 months. So it it's things like that. You know? Like, what I I try to question, like, why are we pathologizing things, and what are the goals of it?
Marissa Rivera:And I think with prolonged grief disorder, it's an example of how, you know, as a society in the United States, like, there's such an emphasis on productivity. And if you're not through and over your grief in 12 months and back to being a, quote, unquote, productive member of society who never has to leave a meeting to go, like, process some feelings, it may have to come out.
Stacie Freasier:Bathroom. Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:Then, oh, guess what? You have prolonged grief disorder. And, you know, the DSM is written by folks that sit on insurance boards and psychiatrists and psychologists, which, yeah, you know, they have their place. But
Stacie Freasier:Follow the money.
Marissa Rivera:It's still
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. A good rule of thumb.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. And like you said, I'm speaking for myself. Not any of the many organizations I represent. But I think that is an important idea, you know, for us to always be curious about and to challenge of, like, why? Is this a true pathology?
Marissa Rivera:In some cases, it maybe is. Right? Some people might actually have prolonged grief disorder. But are we just blank blanketly, applying that label to folks if they don't fit into these discrete boxes. And that's where I, you know, I think psychology can continue to be problematic.
Stacie Freasier:Mhmm. My question is,
Marissa Rivera:and I Oh, was that the statement? Was I just right?
Stacie Freasier:Statement, and then you were just, yes, and let me take it and and run with it.
Marissa Rivera:I said we were yappers.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. I hope people are
Marissa Rivera:That's a good thing. I think being a yapper is a good thing.
Stacie Freasier:Well, I mean, if you're yapping knowledge, does that we're not gossiping.
Marissa Rivera:No. No. No. No. No.
Marissa Rivera:No. No. No.
Stacie Freasier:We have something to say.
Marissa Rivera:The question. Sorry.
Stacie Freasier:Yes. The question now becomes, I've been in decades of therapy. Mhmm. All I know all the acronyms because I've gone through different modalities. Mhmm.
Stacie Freasier:And and I do actually use this as an ism. Right? And I'm curious to know how you feel about this ism that I have in frequent rotation. And that is, for me, mental health therapy is taking a mental multivitamin. And I have encouraged many of my family members to get on that, like, frame of thinking.
Stacie Freasier:How do you feel about the statement mental health is or mental health therapy is taking a mental multivitamin?
Marissa Rivera:Oh, absolutely. And and I think mental health, I love that you use such a broad term because that could be therapy. It could be another healing practice that you're using to explore, a belief, you know, about yourself or about your place, in culture and society. And I think that's a lifelong process. I mean, I myself have been in therapy off and on, you know, since I was 19.
Marissa Rivera:You know? Whether it was exploring my sexual identity or, you know, fast forward, like, 20 odd years from now is, like, what does it mean to be in an interracial relationship, you know, in confronting some of those beliefs? So, yeah, I I think it's always good to check-in, right, and to have, like, a baseline practice or a baseline, route to exploration that you know works for you when it comes to processing. Those things that just haven't quite been digested yet and that you might need to marinate on.
Stacie Freasier:Marinade. I appreciate that. I used that word myself. So tell us about Ola. So then after your
Marissa Rivera:Grad school. Yeah. So after grad school, I well, in the middle of grad school, actually, I started working for Communities and Schools in Austin ISD. And in my work with, specifically, Austin ISD as a campus based therapist, really worked on helping bring to life social emotional learning. So not only, offering individual group and family counseling on campus for students, but also designing large scale mental health programs for the entire student body, and different programs where we would go into classrooms and teach certain things in 9th grade, and 10th grade, 11th grade, and so on.
Marissa Rivera:And that was really great. And, eventually, had the opportunity to write policy within Austin ISD, so I authored the communal grief policy for Austin ISD. So, essentially, like, what do social worker social workers and school counselors do when there is a loss, a death within their community? I wrote a policy to really help school professionals understand what to do in that moment, like, the day after, the day of, that a community experiences loss.
Stacie Freasier:How explicit could you be about mentioning the the the need to the differences between support needed for BIPOC kids and families versus white kids and families? Are you were you able to be overt and explicit in your policy writing?
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Well so, you know and for me, I think the basis for that is always starting with curiosity. So in terms of great freight, like, the that's where my conversation or policy was narrowed on. You know, one of the things that I taught folks and that I wrote into the policy is you have to ask students what their understanding of death is first. Make space for all sorts of beliefs, ideas, and relationships to loss and the afterlife.
Marissa Rivera:Because different cultures, different faith communities have different ideas, and some kiddos have never thought about it. Right? Or it's never even been a topic of conversation within their families and and communities. So I think if you're starting from a place of community, and, of course, being trauma conscious and trauma informed, which Austin ISD does a really great job of training their counseling staff in that way, you can then really make space to dive into those things and take into account the intersectionality of of kiddos' experiences as they're going through such an awful time in that moment.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. Before we move on and take a break at, in the midway point of our conversation, is there anything you'd like to to to put a bow on or a little extra glitter on of of what we've covered so far?
Marissa Rivera:Oh, I mean, I I think curiosity. You know? And not to be so Pollyanna about it, but, I I really do think and, you know, I try to challenge myself every day to remain curious whether that's about, you know, confronting racism, and like you said, in the interpersonal, the structural, the institutional senses. But also, like, how are we talking to each other, and how are we furthering the status quo? You know, whether that's in policy, in medicine, in behavioral health, in politics.
Marissa Rivera:Right? Have we really kind of taken time to step back and and think, is this still working for us? Is there maybe time to bring forward some other voices or get some other perspectives? So I I guess I'm offering that as my bow for the first half, and that's definitely gonna come up in the second half.
Stacie Freasier:Curiosity is tool to dismantle racism structures, beliefs.
Marissa Rivera:All the isms.
Stacie Freasier:We'll be right back. Welcome back. You are listening to racism on the levels on K00P91.791.7 FM in Austin, Texas and streaming online everywhere at k00p.org. I am your host, Stacey Fraser. I am sitting here with Marissa Rivera.
Stacie Freasier:And, who is this lovely canine companion? What is
Marissa Rivera:it? Yes.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. Tell us.
Marissa Rivera:This is this is Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne is a very soon to be, in less than 4 weeks, very soon to be 13 year old Italian greyhound mix. And he's a therapy dog. He I started training him when he was 6 months. And by the time he was 2, we started working with a lovely organization in town called Divine Canines, and we became a volunteer, therapy handler team.
Marissa Rivera:And so we would visit schools and nursing homes and community clinics, even UT Athletics. Like, we would sit with the football players, you know, during study breaks and stuff and really just offer folks space to slow down, connect, and maybe even remind them about a piece of home or a different part of their life, you know, through their connection with dogs. So Absolutely. He's technically retired right now, but he still comes to the office with me pretty much every day, and he's a professional cuddler. He's he's pretty empathic and intuitive.
Stacie Freasier:Well, I'm happy you're here, Bruce. So we were, first part of the show, we've been going through your story of your of your life and the timeline and your background in as a as a therapist, as a psychologist, your, your roots in San Antonio. I grew up in Corpus, by the way. Or Oh my gosh. Was going into town.
Marissa Rivera:My brother-in-law is from Corpus.
Stacie Freasier:You probably know him or definitely know someone he knows. Yes. Because it was a it was a small town. But yeah. I yeah.
Stacie Freasier:So that's for another time, but just to ground you in, you know, my place and and location. Saliniland.
Marissa Rivera:Yes. Pretty much. Yeah. Porvida.
Stacie Freasier:Porvida. Exactly. So let's now talk about let's turn to to the arts, which is something that you
Marissa Rivera:and I
Stacie Freasier:both share a passion for and and its role in the movement.
Marissa Rivera:And I you know, it it comes to life now. You know, I I'm one of those folks that's really annoying, when people ask the question, what do you do? You know, whether it's a cocktail party or whatever.
Stacie Freasier:Annoyed as I as most of what I do is unpaid labor.
Marissa Rivera:Right. Yes. Oh, preach. But, yeah, I I would the the the most simplified version of my answer to that question has become my work exists at the intersection of mental health and cultural arts. And so I accomplish that work either through my private practice, you know, where I'm also nurturing my associates, who are being trained under me, with my, of course, my work with my clients and my guest lecturing and all of that.
Marissa Rivera:But, also, largely through my work with the Sims Foundation, with a project that I have with my business partners, shout out Steven Hatchett and Rudy Devino, called OFC Creatives, as well as some of my work with Downtown Austin Alliance. So I'm I feel, very grounded in what I do here in Austin, and really happy to have so much variety on my plate, you know, especially as an ADHD or neurospicy individual. Yes.
Stacie Freasier:Neurospicy. I love that. Simms Foundation. So how did how did your relationship with Simms Foundation come about?
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. So for those who don't know, Sims Foundation provides mental health and recovery services to music industry professionals in Central Texas. So that's the 5 county Central Texas region. And when we say music industry professionals, we mean everybody from the door person at a music venue to the artist on stage. And, you know, all the sound engineers and production staff in between that make that all possible.
Marissa Rivera:I had always known since so, since it's turning 30 years old, this next year in 2025. And I had always known about Sims again, like having a lot of friends in the music industry, and kind of being adjacent to that pretty much my whole adult life. But I had a couple of friends also on the board. And my friend, Gina Whittington, owner of Witt Ross, she had been trying to get me to join the board for years. She's like, you need to get on here.
Marissa Rivera:You need to come here. We need you. And then in 2020, I finally broke. And so, yeah, it it was a very interesting time.
Stacie Freasier:2020 what month of 2020?
Marissa Rivera:So that would have been the summer, the summer of 2020.
Stacie Freasier:It was So pandemic really I was up in Boston when this when the pandemic hit, and that was March 2020. Yeah. So this is fully in.
Marissa Rivera:Full in
Stacie Freasier:Everything is closed. Closed.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Well
Stacie Freasier:Well, like, everything brick and mortar is closed.
Marissa Rivera:No? Not in Austin, really. So,
Stacie Freasier:Boston was
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Tickets. Yeah. Not in Austin. So, in in Austin, I wanna say it was, like, early May, mid May, venues and bars started to reopen, of course, with, like, pretty intensive measures in place.
Marissa Rivera:Like, you had to reserve a table. You couldn't just, like, walk into a bar, or there was, like, outdoor, or you had, like, timed, reservations where it was, like, spaced out. All of these mitigation measures, that at the time.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. We were living in very different geo places and cultures.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was an interesting summer for many, many reasons, but that's also when I started my work with the Sims Foundation. And that time in particular was really interesting because because Sims serves the music industry, we saw such a spike in need for our services because musicians and music industry professionals by and large could not work.
Marissa Rivera:Right? And as an artist, like, when you can't do your craft in the way that you're used to doing it, your mental health takes a hit. You know? And for some folks, that also meant, you know, struggling with recovery and substance use in a way that maybe they hadn't before or hadn't in a long time. So at the same time, we were also experiencing, a decrease in funding as a lot of health dollars, quote, unquote, were shifted to pandemic COVID 19 care, which, of course, very much needed.
Marissa Rivera:But, unfortunately, I don't think people realized how much folks' mental health
Stacie Freasier:Were they even the connection of
Marissa Rivera:Yeah.
Stacie Freasier:Of, the virus the pandemic to mental health?
Marissa Rivera:Absolutely.
Stacie Freasier:Because it had the had they, they would have preserved or maybe even doubled down on mental health dollars.
Marissa Rivera:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I I always try to think, like, things happen for a reason and just put, you know, a lot of faith in what the community do can do together, to bring us forward. And the community did step up.
Marissa Rivera:I would say to this day, we're still recovering from the pandemic and trying to figure out what this landscape is, because the music industry changed. The venues here in Austin changed in a way, in terms of people's expectations of their experiences at live shows. And mental health has continued to evolve. Right? Mhmm.
Stacie Freasier:So What were the, so Sims Foundation Mhmm. You joined the board in summer 2020.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. And then summer of 2023, became chair or president of the board, which if you know me, is not atypical for me to get involved in something and then quickly rise to leadership. So it's it's really it's really been interesting. And we're at a pretty crucial crossing point right now at SIEMs in that, we have spent the last year reevaluating our service model, the way things have been done for the last 29 years. Right?
Stacie Freasier:Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:And really kind of considering how the behavioral health system has changed in those 29 years. How's the music industry has changed in the last 29 years. How Austin has changed in the last 29 years, and yet our service model has remained the same. Right? So, we had some wonderful, nonprofit partners, or rather we are their nonprofit.
Marissa Rivera:We're a beneficiary, of Valkyrie AI. They are a company in town, a locally founded company, who helped us their data scientists help us really go through our service data, over the last decade plus to understand what it is that we do best, and what, services tend to be in use most at what times of year and so forth.
Stacie Freasier:So, to keep us on point and purpose of this show, what data did you collect or not collect on folks of color, BIPOC community members?
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Well, to be clear, everything was anonymized, to make sure that we protected folks' privacy.
Stacie Freasier:So Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:People were just, you know, assigned numbers, and then every all the data was anonymized. But what, you know, we have found, of course, is that musicians and particularly musicians of color are living in the outskirts of Austin. You know? And so there's increased stress, particularly economic stress, which, of course, leads to a lot of mental health stressors, when it comes to being able to do their craft. And you gotta think, like, sitting in traffic for 45 minutes to an hour and a half plus.
Stacie Freasier:That's if you have access to a car.
Marissa Rivera:That's if you have access to a car. Right? So, like, just that journey to either come into the city to do your gig and or maybe record or collaborate with other artists to be able to afford to live. So the it it comes up, right, like, at every single point, of our client service journey. Like, it becomes apparent that there's a lot of inequity being experienced in Austin, particularly by folks of color, and folks in creative industries.
Marissa Rivera:And for us, that's music industry professionals. So yeah. So we are in the middle of implementing a new service model. The, you know, the new service model, which we'll be unveiling, you know, in the next 90 days, takes all of that data into consideration. You know?
Marissa Rivera:And what it is that we do really well, and what is it that our clients over and over again come to us for. And doing it in a way that makes us sustainable, hopefully, for another 30 years to come. I mean, as a nonprofit to survive the Austin ecosystem for 29 years, that is impressive. Like, I wanna give all the props and kudos to all of the leaders within Sims who helped it get to this point. Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:But like I was talking about earlier, once I became chair, I really made a point of holding a lot of space for curiosity, you know, looking at patterns that kept happening within the organization, and really figuring out what is it that might need to change in order for us to be able to continue serving our community, and doing it in a way that put less stress on staff, on leadership, and, also, I think, eventually, is going to help us expand, services. So that's where we're at right
Stacie Freasier:now. Potentially provocative question. No. Go for it. I went to grad school for nonprofit, and I was deeply in the nonprofit industry.
Stacie Freasier:So Yeah. Have you asked
Marissa Rivera:about it.
Stacie Freasier:Are you asking yourself or have you asked yourselves, what do we do what do we need to do so that we don't have to exist in 30 years?
Marissa Rivera:I yeah. So, I think a big part of that is something again, I'm speaking for myself, not the organization as a whole. But we have not had the time or resources to do advocacy work to essentially take the grassroots boots on the ground knowledge that we have gathered, you know, for 29 years delivering these services in the music industry, and then using that information to inform, to help guide, to advocate on our community's behalf. Because right now, I think a lot of the folks writing policy just they don't have the experience of being boots on the ground. So I I would like to get to a place where we're able to spend more time doing that in addition to providing the same level of care that we've always been able to provide.
Marissa Rivera:Mhmm. But, yeah, I mean, I I think about that all the time, the industrial the nonprofit industrial complex. I would love. I mean, so to be honest, everything that I, quote, unquote, do for, like, money or leadership, I would love to eventually be phased out. Right?
Marissa Rivera:Even, like, as a therapist, like, as an industry, like, I've I I have complex feelings about that all the time, because a lot of what I see in the therapy room, I'd say 50% of it are oftentimes people's reactions to systemic ills that are manifesting as behavioral health issues. And I'm putting quotes around issues. They are having very normal reactions to the chaos in which we are all living right now.
Stacie Freasier:Right. So I say, if you are you are perfectly sane in the using the word sane, if you are not doing well in Yeah. Capitalism.
Marissa Rivera:Capitalism. Imperialism. Capitalism. Sexism. Racism.
Marissa Rivera:Right. Yeah.
Stacie Freasier:It's not the on the individual. In fact, that's exactly the manifestation of his, like, putting it on the person is that it's your fault or these are
Marissa Rivera:the negative people. If, you know, if you, you know, you asked this question in context of my work with Sims
Stacie Freasier:Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:Here's here's a great idea. Right? What if, you know, within the recording industry, you know, which does make a lot of money and does not compensate artists, What if they also put aside dollars for artists' health initiatives, for artist wellness, to use some of their 1,000,000,000 of dollars to advocate for, better treatment, you know, of musicians within the industry and venues. You know? I would love to see more, you know, locally owned venues be able to thrive.
Marissa Rivera:You know, the Red River Cultural District is doing a lot of that work here in Austin, to to keep the live music scene local, you know, locally informed. So Mhmm. Yeah. It'd be great if, like, at a there are a lot of things that change in the music industry at a structural level that made a lot of the trickle down ills obsolete. Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:And, therefore, there was no need for us to be pulling together dollars to help folks navigate not only that system, but the system that we have in the United States. Don't get me wrong. There are folks that very much, like, have, behavioral health, psychological, substance use issues, you know, that fall out of what you were saying are, like, sane reactions to quite quite complex societal ills. So that does exist. I'm not saying that it doesn't, but I think by and large, a lot of what we see these days are layered, complex reactions to a lack of support on a much larger level.
Marissa Rivera:I tell folks all the time in my therapy room, like, hey. We can talk about this. We can process this. We can resource you.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:At the end of the day, I cannot take away this stressor in your life. Yeah. You know? And neither can you. So how are we gonna work through that together?
Stacie Freasier:Right. I'm also in the moment in my life. This season is, I went through a burn it all down, and, sure, I have a part of that rebellious and evergreen spirit in me. However, I'm like, well, build something else.
Marissa Rivera:And I tell folks that about that. Like, tell my associates, everybody I volunteer with.
Stacie Freasier:It hopefully, before you burn it down. You Because it's it it I think it's a more useful framing to say, let's build it, to build the alternative.
Marissa Rivera:I I use it I think about it in terms of, like, allocation of energy resources. You know? You you gotta fight the fight. We gotta stay fighting the fight. But what are we fighting the fight for?
Marissa Rivera:What are we building? What are we celebrating? What are we nurturing? What are we holding? And that, you know, making that journey in between those two spaces, I think, happens within the individual, but I think it's also something to be mindful of in community.
Marissa Rivera:Because within one community, for instance, you know, there may be folks that at any given time have more resources to be in the fight, and then there still needs to be a celebration of the folks that are doing the work to build, to nurture, to celebrate. So it's it's both and. You know? And I think as, you know, somebody who does advocacy work, you get that's the recipe for burnout is when you stay in one mode or the other a 100% or a majority of the time. Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:And there's not that exploration of fluidity between the two states.
Stacie Freasier:And sometimes rest is you being in the fight. I Oh my gosh. Advise my friends that it's like, okay. So the best, healthiest, most constructive contribution you can make to the movement in this moment is to rest yourself because you will not sustain. And, also, a person who is just out, burnt out, can inflict more harm by their dysregulated actions.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. And and and I'm gonna be very transparent as, like, that's where my healing work for myself as an individual has been. You know? Like, just because I can do do do do do, should I? You know?
Marissa Rivera:And Yeah. So, you know, I'd I'd say within particularly the last, like, 3 years, I've really tried to reframe, for me, rest as opportunity to build legacy, to bring other people in to the work that I'm doing and to expand the work. I I don't think in at any point in my life, it was coming from an egotistical place, but just a very, like, roll up my sleeves. I'm gonna get shit done. Sorry.
Marissa Rivera:But I'm gonna I'm gonna get it done, you know, and, like, let's go. You know? And so I've had to really work on that and reframe that for myself, what rest means, what it looks like, and as of late, what ease means and the power that ease has in continuing the work.
Stacie Freasier:So, yes, all of that. So OFC creatives. Yeah. So then Sims in and you're still very now you are
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Holding a lot of space. A
Stacie Freasier:lot Yeah. Of space for Sims
Marissa Rivera:So in
Stacie Freasier:your life.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. I well, so I had I had known my friend Rudy before we started OFC Creatives, but he met, who is now our also our business partner, Steven Hatchett, shortly before the pandemic, and then they they're both creatives. Steven's a photographer. Rudy is a lyricist, a writer, and musician. And they were having that conversation on the side about what does it mean as black men who are creatives to be in community with other creatives of color.
Marissa Rivera:Where are the spaces in Austin for that? What does that look like? How do we find more resources for that? So they were having that conversation. They started building, what is now the nonprofit of color.
Marissa Rivera:And then in 2020 the very beginning of 2021, I actually came on board initially as a sponsor, as a funder, for the very first black art weekend. But, again, as here's a pattern. Right? Came in in in one regard and then saw the opportunity for some more work. Right?
Marissa Rivera:So black art weekend, the very first one in 2021, shout out to my brother, Chris Tobar Rodriguez. That was his brainchild that we all worked really hard together to bring to life. But that weekend of black art weekend in 2021, which was the first time Juneteenth was a federally recognized holiday, we kind of all looked at each other like, why don't we do this for brown folks too? You know? And so so then we we we did that, and then we just kept doing more and more and more.
Marissa Rivera:And so, you know, we eventually, like, filed for a 501c3. And in 2022, we knew that we needed to kind of diversify our approach to this. And as we eventually had fallen into the space of being event producers. Right? As well as, like, artistic curators.
Marissa Rivera:And one of the main challenges, in those spaces is finding space, physical space, to host events, to hold space for community, right, for conversations. And so in 2022, we were like, we need to get our own space. Like, we're spending 1,000 of dollars for 3 day pop ups, for one day pop ups. Just not sustainable. So in early in January of 2023, we found a space in downtown Austin, and we opened up our art gallery.
Marissa Rivera:And it's been such a beautiful journey. It's, of course, been at times stressful, but it's been so powerful to be able to, in that space, give artists of color of a variety of mediums, oftentimes their very first experience of showcasing in a gallery. And the gallery world within the fine art space, is a very exclusive space. Right? And it's hard for if you're an artist, you may not know the business side.
Marissa Rivera:That's not really something that they teach in art school. So we started having conversations with artists about, well, what does it mean to be in a gallery? How do you showcase yourself? How do you navigate gallery contracts? And so, essentially, almost using our our art gallery as like an incubator space.
Marissa Rivera:And, I'm very proud to say that a lot of artists who had shows for the first time in their career in our gallery space have gone on to show at bigger spaces, and more, you know, renowned spaces. So I've really enjoyed doing that work. And, again, I see that as healing work, because I'm creating a nurturing space for people to tell stories and carry on histories and to process ideas and beliefs through art in a space that is designed explicitly to hold bodies of color with respect and honor and gratitude.
Stacie Freasier:And dignity.
Marissa Rivera:Absolutely.
Stacie Freasier:Downtown Austin and the Lions. Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:Once we've done that, I think. About them. Yeah. So I'm on the active urbanism committee there, and Raisin McIntosh, who another local creative
Stacie Freasier:Shout out Raisin in the sun. My gosh. I I live off Bohm Street, and the Bohm Street mural, I see multiple times a day every day of my life, which is great.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. So she's a VP at Downtown Austin Alliance, and she's another one that she's like, I you gotta you gotta be in this space. Like, we need you. You gotta you know? And so
Stacie Freasier:Well, reason, I want you on the show too
Marissa Rivera:if you wanna hear this. Now now I'll bully her into something. Lovingly. Lovingly. Lovingly.
Marissa Rivera:But, yeah, I guess, like, a little over a year ago, I joined, the committee that she oversees, active urbanism, which has a really great variety of of leaders within development, environmental spaces, creative spaces, architect architectural spaces, all coming together to really think through what does it mean to make downtown Austin more accessible and equitable. And so the you know, one of the projects that I'm involved in because of my work on that committee is, DASA, the downtown Austin space activation program. So the DASA program, we, we take underutilized or unoccupied commercial spaces in downtown Austin and subsidize them, greatly subsidize them, for creatives, for entrepreneurs, for small businesses, so that they have an opportunity to do pop ups, you know, to build their business, to be seen, like, you were talking about with dignity, with respect, with honor in a space that often feels inaccessible to folks across Austin. Growing up, I did not have a connection with downtown Austin. Downtown Austin is, like, where you went on your, like, 7th grade field trip to go to the capital.
Marissa Rivera:You know? And, like, that's it. But the reality is is I think the the downtown Austin that downtown Austin Alliance is attempting to build that those of us in our community are attempting to build, is a place where people from all over Austin
Stacie Freasier:Bring the soccer low back. Like, it's Yeah. Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:Something. Yeah. In Republic Square Park. Exactly. Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Well, so Republic Square Park, that's another project that's informed by the work on the active urbanism committee. Shout out Alida Harrison at downtown Austin Alliance. She's one of the project managers there who has really worked really hard to transform that space and bring more, inclusive and diverse programming. So, again, right, like, unpaid labor, but it's labor that I'm so so passionate about and happy to offer my voice and expertise.
Marissa Rivera:And it's wild to be in those boardrooms and in those spaces and to, I feel, actually have my my voice valued. Because I have been in spaces where, like, sure. I'm allowed to talk, but it's very tokenized. And it's like, yeah. Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:But I see, like, the ideas that I'm offering, the initiatives, the, the criticism sometimes, you know, that I offer in those spaces, actually, there's action taken on
Stacie Freasier:them. Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:So that's been that's been really great. So, also help out with the mural program, you know, downtown when and where I can, and the artist in residency program, which we just announced our first cohort of artists in residents for downtown Austin Alliance. And it's it's been great to be on that selection committee, and my, my goal anytime on a on a selection people is to bring in folks who have never been in those spaces before. Mhmm. You know?
Marissa Rivera:And I'm especially passionate about, you know, celebrating the native voices of Austin Mhmm. And making sure they get their space. You know? I I consider my Austin my lifelong home. Mhmm.
Marissa Rivera:I I remember, and there are folks in this community who make sure I remember that I was not born here. So although I have dedicated my my life and career and,
Stacie Freasier:And keep going. Yeah. Because it sounds, you know, from
Marissa Rivera:all of this Austin is very much my home.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. Yeah.
Marissa Rivera:I at this point, I've spent more years here than I have in San Antonio. So
Stacie Freasier:That's right. And I, you know, I moved back here. I left Texas for 20 years and moved back to raise my son here. So I planted fruit trees. So
Marissa Rivera:I love being up to Hannah.
Stacie Freasier:Be just I love to be able to hang out with a bunch of theanas.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Well, and for me, you know, all of
Stacie Freasier:this invited guest and Yeah. May change the course of, you know, some of the history.
Marissa Rivera:Amen.
Stacie Freasier:Right? From
Marissa Rivera:you know, I I think, you know, even to maybe to put a bow on on all of this, for me, a lot of the work that I do and the the diversity of it all, for me, it's always made sense, the intersection of mental health and cultural arts. But I think 10 years ago, people were like, girl, stay in your lane. You are doing the most. But I think increasingly, it's making the more sense to people. But for me, you know, one of my biggest role models is actually my great aunt, my Tia Jovita Idar.
Marissa Rivera:And she was an activist. She was a journalist. She was a suffragist. She was a nurse, and she was an educator. And she did all of this, never had children of her own, which back then, you know, in the early 20th century was unheard of.
Marissa Rivera:But with that energy, really put a lot of nurturing out into the world and built community. And in that way, I feel like she mothered so many people, including including my grandmother. She did, pretty much raise my grandmother,
Stacie Freasier:after It sounds like you draw strength from her.
Marissa Rivera:Absolutely. And so, you know, I think that kind of strength is just in my blood. It's in my veins. You know? And if she could do that in 1912, 1917, 19 you know, in the twenties, in the thirties, in the forties, when folks like us had no rights, we had no civil rights as a woman, even less rights.
Marissa Rivera:Right? What's my excuse? You know? So I remind myself of that.
Stacie Freasier:Would be the alternative anyway?
Marissa Rivera:I I don't. Well, I don't I don't know. I just don't know that.
Stacie Freasier:We don't have reality.
Marissa Rivera:To know. Right? We have reality. So I think that informs, and that gives me a lot of energy and inspiration. I have that within my family, and I'm very honored to carry on my family's legacy.
Marissa Rivera:And I think that's also a reminder of, where I need to rest, where maybe I can take that legacy, and do it a little bit different, which increasingly means making more room for rest and ease.
Stacie Freasier:And softness and pleasure.
Marissa Rivera:Oh, amen. Alright,
Stacie Freasier:Marissa. Wow. You have so much to share, and I say that in the, like, most complimentary sense. So, perhaps we shall do this again 1 month and Absolutely. Expand and maybe check-in and see where everything, you know, is.
Stacie Freasier:And how do folks find you or if anything that they may have been picked to learn more about? What where do folks find you?
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. You can LinkedIn. You know? Search me there, on Instagram. You can follow my private practice at Ola Wellness ATX.
Marissa Rivera:There, you can learn more about my associates. You can find my website, my practice, and all of that.
Stacie Freasier:And that's o l a?
Marissa Rivera:W e l l n e s s a t x. Yeah. Cool. And there's a fun story behind that name, but we'll have to get that back. Next time.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. My personal Instagram is Texican Owl, which I've had for now decades, and it's so funny. Like, the
Stacie Freasier:owl as in hoot.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. Yeah. Well, because it's the it's a mascot for rice. Yeah. But then it it kinda became, like, a full circle thing because, you know, within, like, Mexican culture, owls are associated with death.
Marissa Rivera:Right? Yep. And I'm a grief therapist. So it's just like, you know what? You know?
Marissa Rivera:And Texan because obviously
Stacie Freasier:Perhaps an omen. Yeah. Well Randall.
Marissa Rivera:Yeah. So, yeah, so folks can follow me there, and there I post more of my kind of creative work and community work within the community and also just some of the fun art stuff I do just for fun. Yeah.
Stacie Freasier:Yeah. Well, thank you, and thank y'all for listening. You have been tuned in to Racism on the Levels. I've joined me every month, and next month will be the final month of the Gregorian calendar year, which will be December 19th. And I am going to be sitting in conversation with, Sarah Bentley.
Stacie Freasier:Sarah is a healer, musician, beautiful harmonium player, and, hopefully, we'll grace you with some some of Sarah's music in addition to conversation as I try to round off the year in a, more reflective art as healing way.
Marissa Rivera:There you go.
Stacie Freasier:You have been graced by the music of my friend Shoyinka Rahim from the 2016 album Bebo Love. And remember, in all things and always, love is the highest level. See y'all next month.