Marketing and business strategy podcast for executives and marketing leaders who want to improve outcomes from marketing.
Marketing veterans Devin Bramhall (Animalz, Help Scout) & Margaret Kelsey (InVision, OpenView) use their combined 20+ years of experience to increase the business impact of marketing by creating shared understanding of its purpose and outcomes among marketing leaders, founders/CEOs & others in the C-suite.
Created in partnership with Share Your Genius
An award-winning B2B podcast production company: https://www.shareyourgenius.com/
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:00]:
You find your theme sometimes while you're podcasting, and then you're like, oh, this is what it's about. Like, oh, it's about the fact that we all kind of cross talk and we don't say what we mean or we're saying things that don't make any sense. That's why we hate the word content, because it doesn't mean anything. Right. Everyone's just saying stuff that doesn't mean anything. What do we actually mean?
Devin Bramhall [00:00:22]:
It's a strategy now for people to gate their newsletter, either part of it or all of it, behind an actual paywall. People build businesses off of that. And so I'm like, why are we still talking about gating content? I think it's so random.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:39]:
I'm Margaret Kelsey.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:40]:
And I'm Devin Bramhall.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:42]:
And this is Don't Say Content.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:44]:
A show created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:48]:
Okay, there's like sand on my computer.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:51]:
Um, anyway, you are a tropical vision.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:56]:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm on a workation in Palm Springs, California.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:02]:
Yeah, different than Florida.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:03]:
Different. It's gorgeous. I don't ever want to leave, but there was one thing I wanted to ask you about because I swear to God I'm not jealous. But I was scanning through LinkedIn the other day and I saw that you launched a podcast with your company, Kodaris.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:24]:
Yeah, yeah, Kodaris Community Show. And listen, if you were able to have thoughtful discussions about innovation and distribution, I would absolutely have you as co host. I know nothing. I'm still learning and it's really fun. We decided Kodaris is really built on this idea of brand and community, like having our community be our champions. And so we're going to have folks from distribution, both our customers, but also the broader community on to talk about technology and innovation and where the industry is moving and all that good stuff.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:59]:
That's cool. Have you noticed anything different about asking them to be on a podcast or like, them being on a podcast? Like, is there anything different there?
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:09]:
Yeah, I would say. This is funny. I feel like the beginning of my content marketing career was within vision and I was just so used to, like, having an audience be very design forward. Like these folks, their offices are in warehouses and so it's one of those I'll do a little extra reminder of, like, good lighting and sound quality and stuff like that. Whereas, like, if I was having a product designer, we weren't doing podcasts at that point back then at InVision. But, like, you know, their desks were beautiful, their setups were beautiful. And then you think about, okay, well, the folks watching the video podcasts of this thing are also going to realize that, like, those are their people. Right.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:49]:
It doesn't have to always be aesthetically beautiful.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:51]:
They're going to recognize that background. They'll feel at home looking at it. They're like, yep, that's right.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:56]:
Yeah. I would say the other really funny thing, just like a side note is we had a customer community event, I don't even a couple months ago, and I sent an email for the dinner. Like, this is the dinner that we're going to go to. This is when you show up. This is whatever. I didn't get a lot of responses. And so I was like, oh, I hope people show up to this thing. Everyone was on time, punctual came.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:22]:
It was one of these things where I'm like, they're so operation focused because you think that they're like, supplies are coming into the warehouse or, like, products are coming in and they're going out, and they're like, it's all very, like, time and order and operations that everyone was just like, didn't need the fuss. Like, nobody was, like, had food allergies and everyone arrived on time. I was like, wow. To wrangle this with anybody else that I would have ever marketed to before would have been like, lots of emails back and forth and lots of confusion and people being late. I was actually a little bit late to show up, and everyone was like, already there.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:57]:
I'm like, oh, wait. So I have two questions. One about the podcast.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:04]:
Yep.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:04]:
One related to the event. This is going to sound a little bitchy when I say it, but, like, I'm genuinely asking it. Okay. For, like, an informative reason. You didn't follow up with them, like, you didn't call them, or like, you literally just still had the event without anyone RSVP-ing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:23]:
No, it was like, we knew who was gonna be there at our, like, community conference. So it was like a dinner the night before the community conference. Right. So I knew who was attending that conference.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:36]:
You reserved the table for with a bunch of people who didn't RSVP and you still went forward with it?
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:43]:
Yeah, yeah, we did. I mean, I, I. If there had been concern from the internal team, I would have, but it seemed like this was just kind of the normal course of business as a customer and community base. So I was like, okay, well, if it's three of us that show up, we'll have a great meal.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:01]:
I love that so much. Also, it makes me think of the time when I was working for a small business like connection, community platform and working with small businesses in small towns all over the country, and the amount of times I needed to get on the telephone to reach them, they didn't respond to emails. But if you called them on the phone, they answered every time. And it was wild. Is it? You made me think of that same thing. I'm like, oh yeah, like there's still cohorts of people who don't need email to run their lives and their businesses that much. It's not their go to place for regular communication. Whereas, like, we take for granted that it is because of the industry we grew up in.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:52]:
Which is a very good reminder about knowing your buyers and your community. Because like, yes, I'm clearly still guilty of making assumptions, right? Like, it gets so ingrained in me that I forget to even ask the question.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:09]:
Well, even if you think about like folks in distribution, their field sales is true. Like going to their customer's office. And so you think about like, oh well, you can just have an AI assistant join your call. It's like not if that field salesperson is having an in person conversation. Right? Like it's actually any kind of technology is breaking from that in person experience. And so you have to be really thoughtful about introducing technology that those field sales reps are actually going to use because it's not just like an AI chat bot. Join the call, right? And it's so funny.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:44]:
Did I bring my tape recorder?
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:47]:
Right.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:47]:
Going back to the podcast, like, what's the strategy? Like, why did you launch it from like a strategic standpoint?
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:52]:
We're definitely in this. If it's don't broke, don't fix it. Marketing strategy of our customers have always been the majority of our source of leads. It's just happy customers talking to prospects. And even one time it was a prospect that sent us another prospect. And so we really understand that, especially with this audience and customer base. They're already very community-driven, which is Infor, the ERP has a user conference that is called TUG every year. Tony, the CEO like not warmed me, but gave me a heads up of like folks have been going to this conference and have known each other for like decades.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:36]:
So it's like a family when you walk in. And I was obviously the odd one out that had never been there and never met anyone or whatnot. And it was so true. It's people come to that conference and they're catching up with their how's your kid doing? And are they in, you know, college yet and it's like that kind of like yearly catch up with the people that they've known for decades, which. And then it's funny because they'll, you know, kind of like go around to. There'll be like hires, like people will go to different companies but still go to that conference.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:06]:
When you started that, I heard you say Infor, the ERP. And I was like, what?
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:15]:
I thought I heard you wrong. I was like, this is big enterprises actually have this thing called an ERP that they run their business off of.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:22]:
So Infor is a company.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:25]:
Yeah, Infor Infor. It's an ERP company.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:29]:
And what's an ERP?
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:32]:
Enterprise Resource Planning. It's a software system that helps organizations like SAP, Oracle, NetSuite, those are all ERPs. So enterprise resource Planning, it's pretty much like the data brain of the business where it like logs all transactions and all. So for distribution, you imagine you have all of the purchasing transactions from manufacturers and other distributors and then you have all the selling transactions, you have all the pricing in there if the pricing needs to change.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:00]:
Once you mention Oracle and SAP, I was like, I got you.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:04]:
Yeah. So strategy of the podcast is really like, how do we find and create community through everything that could be traditionally a quote unquote marketing channel? It's like, how do we just use those things as ways to connect our customers and the broader distribution community together in a way that is helpful, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:25]:
And I think even like our business model is a little bit different than a traditional software platform company where we've always additionally sold engineering services to our customers and they can use those services to build different features and products in the platform that they need. And then we give that and roll that free out to every customer and we release every seven days. And so the idea too is like, it's a community driven, customer driven, even product development process. And so there's all these places where now if we can get the community to talk to each other, maybe a bunch of distributors actually need the same kind of product or feature, but it might be too expensive for one of them to fund to build themselves. So can we actually connect a whole bunch of them together to be able to then build that product or feature or service, knowing that then everyone else on the platform will get that for free, which is super cool. So this idea of like, can even the podcast be a place of community conversation around different things that are happening in the industry and then people hopefully listen to it and number one, feel less alone if they're experiencing that problem too? But number two, maybe get some, like, insightful ways that they can be solving it internally.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:40]:
Does your community listen to podcasts? Like, is that a place?
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:44]:
We're going to find out.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:46]:
Wow, this is great. I love this give no fucks version of Margaret where she's like, listen, I'm gonna.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:53]:
I'm a type B marketer.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:55]:
Yeah. You're like, I'm gonna hold a dinner and I'm not gonna worry if anyone comes or not. And I'm also gonna come late, and then, like, I'm gonna start a podcast, and I have no clue if anyone even knows what a podcast is, but, like, let alone listens to one. But, like, I'm doing it anyway.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:20]:
Yeah. Because I think before we started recording and we were starting to talk a little bit about this, it's like, I know that they watch YouTube videos because our product videos on YouTube are very well watched. And so it's like, well, maybe they'll watch it there. Right. Who's to say that it has to be on a podcasting platform?
Devin Bramhall [00:11:37]:
Watch it on YouTube. That's actually really smart.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:39]:
We are. Yeah. Yeah, we have. The first two episodes are live on the podcasting platforms, and then we're going to get the YouTube playlist set up for the two that we have the videos of. We just haven't put them on YouTube.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:51]:
You already know that they're on YouTube. Like, you could really even be this down even more by just saying we're only going to do it on YouTube and let the demand require additional work, you know, and it's not that it's that much work to just put on other platforms these days, because the.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:07]:
Oh, my gosh. Transistor.fm, shout out.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:10]:
Yeah, they just do it for you. But still, that's. There's, like, a whole strategy to YouTube itself in terms of the way that I just, like, got a deep dive in from Finn McKenty. Thank you, Finn. I was like, oh, wow. Like, this is just his own strategy ecosystem, and it's, like, very specific to YouTube. So I was like, oh, you can just optimize for the one. And, like, if that's where your people are, it's like, why do you even have to bother with anything else? Right.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:36]:
Yeah. So how. I've been thinking about it too, and I know that you're like, this is very, like, lackadaisical Margaret over here. But I think what it is, Coderas built products for 10 years without really having any marketing at all. And we're very much doing, like a V1 of a marketing strategy.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:55]:
Right.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:55]:
And the V1 of a marketing strategy is like, let's try some stuff and see what sticks, right? Like based on the data points of what we have, knowing our customer base and thankfully I will say they built for 10 years with a specific customer in mind and built for them and with them. And so I don't have to deal with that thing that a lot of marketers do right now, especially in like VC-backed tech companies of like marketers find us our market, right? Bring us around and find who we can sell this to. Like, thankfully I know that we're not changing outside of distribution and maybe getting into manufacture, like adding to it maybe to get into manufacturing.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:40]:
That makes your strategy even more random because you're like, I know we have the same customer for years. I have everything, I need to know everything about them. And you're like, I'm just going to do these random things and see if people show up.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:52]:
It's not super random, right? Like people got to eat. I know more and more people listen to podcasts every day and.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:01]:
I mean the dinner, right, like that's kind of obvious. Mine is the part where you're like, I didn't verify of anywhere that we're gonna go.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:08]:
Nobody was, you know, everyone was just like, okay, I got an email that that's the dinner before, night before. Like the community event is so like that's what I'm gonna do.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:17]:
You are a very lucky person. That is what that is. That is sheer luck.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:21]:
Yeah, it might be.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:23]:
You know what you're reminding me of is the olden days of podcasting where when like you just used to launch a podcast and there were benefits to that, but there were also like non benefits that like you can't really do that anymore. Right? Which is why folks like share your genius are so important. Because like our show could have just gone into the ether, you know, it's not enough to make a show and consistently post. I know several people who have launched shows who've have like hundreds of episodes and not that many listeners. Like eventually you need a strategy for the most part to launch a show. Unless like you're already famous, you're coderist, like whatever. Like there's definitely exceptions to that rule. But I remember like with animals, Jimmy just like launched a podcast one day and then there was no planning, we would just get on and record, really.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:15]:
And then when I took it over when I became CEO and he started Superpath, it was similar. Like Ryan and I would just like record shows and put it out there. And I think what's really interesting about that is we got positive signals from that, from the people in the marketing community. Not all of them buyers, but, like, people who we might like our potential POCs at a company. Right. Other marketers who really liked it. Really qualitative data, but, like, consistent.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:46]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:47]:
And, like, a couple months before I decided to leave, I reached out. I was looking for a company to help me. Like, we were like, okay, the signals are there. Like, we need to do something with this. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. And so my friend Lindsay, who was the CEO of Casted, and so I reached out to her, and I was like, you must know someone who makes podcasts. And she introduced me to Rachel, and I was going to hire Rachel to put the actual, like, strategy and production on our show. I started that process.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:22]:
We were doing it locked in, and then I had to ghost her, because you can't, like, once you. The decision, you gotta, like, you can't tell anyone. So I had to, like, ghost her for, like, many weeks. And then you were there for this story. And probably everyone's heard us tell this a million times, but that's actually how, like, it was doing it. That the way that you're doing a podcast right now, which is like, we just, like, did a show, we tested it out, and when we got a positive signal, that's when we were like, hey, Rachel, help us. Nowadays, knowing what I know, I would do the opposite. I would be like, rachel, help me soft launch a show.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:59]:
I think there's a piece of it, too, where it's like, even we had our name, we had kind of our vision, but we also were like, oh, we're gonna have, like, these different types of segments in the episode, and we're gonna do blah, blah, blah. And then we realized, no, we kind of just want to, like, get on and talk about stuff, Right? And so I think there's a piece of it, too. You find your theme sometimes while you're podcasting, and then you're like, oh, this is what it's about, right? Like, oh, it's about the fact that we all kind of cross talk and we don't say what we mean or we're saying things that don't make any sense, and everyone's beating their chest and, like, acting so important. And, like, that's why we hate the word content, because it doesn't mean anything, right? Everyone's just saying stuff that doesn't mean anything. What do we actually mean? But I don't. I know that we had that name, but I don't know if we really understood that that was the theme of it until we really had a bunch of episodes, and we're like, oh, like, that's what we're talking about now.
Devin Bramhall [00:17:59]:
We had many docs in the beginning where we were brainstorming around, like, what this was about. It wasn't like, we just picked the name and went with it. Like, we did think it through, and we did, in our own way, have a process for thinking it through that day. Like, we were intentional about it, because the whole thing that was mattered to both of us was there were a lot of marketing podcasts out there already.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:23]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:24]:
And we wanted to offer something net new. And I think that's almost what instigated you thinking of that name. Right. Like, we're doing that exercise, and you were like, some exercise. And you were like, don't say content. Like, went with a thing that we already had in our brain, which was like, we don't want to just talk about tactics. We don't like most things that are said and done in marketing. And so I think it kind of came together, and I think the exercise that we did together helped bring those two things together, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:02]:
Yeah, well. And we had a very. Yeah, we had a very clear per. Like, type of person that we wanted to talk to, which was Jay Akonzo. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:13]:
We were like, because I remember.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:16]:
We're making a podcast for Jaya Kunzo.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:18]:
Yeah. But that also came out of that. That brainstorm set of exercises, because we were, like, trying to figure out who we were talking to. And the more we described that person, we were like, first you said, it's us. You were like, it's us. And I was like, yeah, but we can't talk to ourselves. Like, you know what I mean? It's a weird way to like, go.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:37]:
I do all the time. Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:39]:
I know. I'm like, I've got that covered. But then once we were like, well, who are we? And then we were like, oh, yeah. We're like, it's Jay Kunzel. It's Jay. And then we could describe. Exactly. We're like, jay has had it too. Like, Jay is like, stop, all of you.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:54]:
Fiercely creative and has a lot of, like, desire to have good storytelling and understands, like, craft and, you know.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:05]:
Way. Right? Like, he isn't just anti. He's pro something else fundamentally.
Margaret Kelsey [00:20:09]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:10]:
Right? And behind the scenes, right. When we talk to Jay, like, obviously, it goes back and forth between I hate this and this is what. But he's fundamentally pro something which makes him anti these other things or Just like, not pro those other things. And I think that there's a point in your career where like that stance, right, like your stance on what you're pro and what you're not is a little more like sophisticated and a little more complex and interesting because you've had all these experiences and you kind of like, understand the system a little better. And so it's not like, oh, you're not like, oh my God, nobody should gate content. You're like, oh, I fundamentally believe that taking a community approach to growing companies works for all these nuanced ways. And here's how, like, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:20:58]:
And so, and if you want to gate content, you have to think about these pros and these cons and then the alternative is true. So you just have to make the wisest decision. But like having like a big anti splashy statement just to be like, I.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:13]:
Actually like never cared about this argument because I think it's irrelevant. Yeah, it's completely irrelevant because it's too broad.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:20]:
Because also, what content?
Devin Bramhall [00:21:22]:
Yeah, like I recently, while I was researching for my book, one of those like actual research sites, not like a fake one. Like, I submitted multiple forms. I was like, I don't care. I want this asset. And I don't have thousands of dollars a month to pay for a subscription to get this. And so I'm like, thank you. I will hand over information about YI that you definitely already have. Like, the Internet has made sure that you know everything about me already.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:53]:
You have clear bet. Yes. You know everything about me. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:57]:
Like, this is redundant on so many levels, but I'm like, have it right. And also on the flip side, thinking about this, like newsletters, for example, I'm like, it's a strategy now for people to gate their newsletter, either part of it or all of it, behind an actual paywall. And like, people build businesses off of that. Right. And so I'm like, why are we still talking about gating content? I think it's so random. Also, I've seen how it works and nobody minds.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:30]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:31]:
Like Cisco did that. I think we ran like this whole campaign and everything went back to this like, landing page. Everything was fine. Like, nobody was harmed in the execution of this campaign and there was real genuine value on the other side. And same with me. I'm like, thank you, Gardner. I needed that stat to cite in my book.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:51]:
You want to know the silliest thing that always still gets me though? Yes. When marketers will email their email list and that email takes the person to a page where there's an email gate where they have to put in their email. It happens all the time. I can't tell you how many times, like reviewed a campaign and be like, why aren't you just emailing them the asset? You have their email.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:25]:
Oh, so you've already submitted information to get this asset?
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:29]:
Yeah, it's like, oh, we have this like gated asset that we're going to promote. Let's make an email for it. And then the email goes to the landing page where then they have to submit their email address. You know what I mean? I'm like, first of all, if you're using any sort of marketing CRM and sending emails, you can see if the person opened it. So like, you'll know if they actually, like cared enough to look at the asset they are sending.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:52]:
They could run a mini campaign for people who requested to download it, got the email with the asset in it and like, didn't open it. Right. You could be like, oh, hey, here it is again. Or here's an excerpt from it in the email or whatever it is. Think about it. Leading them back to a page is that it's problematic too, because if there isn't like a thingy on that page that knows they already submitted their email, which now is more likely because people can decide they're like crummy footprint or whatever cookies. Okay, there we go. Thank you.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:32]:
Crummy footprint. I love it. I love it.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:37]:
The page might not be like, they may not be able to detect it, in which case their, their fundamental flaw was the approach in the first place. Right. It's like you have to make sure that you should never drive a person. First of all, there's so many dumb mistakes in there. I like, now that I. I'm like, the more I think about, I'm like, this is dumb.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:54]:
People are like, a marketing campaign has emails in it. So let's just email our email list. It's like one of those circular logic things where you're just like, what are we doing? Why are we doing this?
Devin Bramhall [00:25:04]:
One thing that we used to do at Help Scout when we were doing webinars, it was actually kind of cool because it was like I led the top of funnel team and we had a mid funnel and a bottom funnel team, which was sales. And even though I hate funnels, this worked like a first, this and that kind of thing. And so like the three stages work together to create this webinar plan overall. And what we would do is like, for the top of funnel side, it was like we were working with a PR company and we would have our CEO who everybody was like, oh my God, Nick Francis with like a. Another well known person in the customer service space. So it's like celebrity. Celebrity, right. And richness of conversation because Nick was a really good like interviewer speaker.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:50]:
Like that man did not speak unless he had something meaningful to say and it was great. So I was like, here, just go do whatever the fuck you want, I don't care. And so like for me this is a bring the people here opportunity. With the fact that Nick was on it, celebrity was on it, there was a lot I could do both before and after in terms of like using those marketing assets. And so we were able to bring the people there and then the mid funnel team, we worked with them to figure out like what should the follow up sequences be and to who. So like people who attended the webinar live and listened, they got I think like a recording of it. Afterwards we divvied up like what the people got. But then we were like, we put on the landing page for people because we didn't care if they came to the webinar or not.
Devin Bramhall [00:26:38]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:38]:
The webinar was just topical to get them there. Right. And the right people. So we were like, even if you can't attend, like give us your email and afterwards we'll send you this PDF or whatever with some kind of like instruction, step by step, blah blah, blah, like true value thing. And so then based on that, if they opened that asset or something, we had all perfectly orchestrated that then Tim, who was running sales, he had a follow up point for different, you know what I mean? And like we'd really mapped it out and honest to God wasn't that complicated. Like there weren't many branches of the tree here. Like if you were to zoom out, you'd look at me like line, break, break. And it was so well structured, you know, we did it in HubSpot or whatever that it felt really automated.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:22]:
It just worked really well where like everyone had a job to do at a logical time that made sense to all of them and the customer. And it was like, I don't know, it was, it was like elegant, I guess. And I feel like sometimes that we talk about a customer journey now. It gets so complicated and there's so many branches. And it was this way at Cisco too. They were like. I remember the woman who hired me, who was the head of the department at the time, she was kind of saying the same thing. She's like, we need to make this like simpler.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:52]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:53]:
Right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:53]:
So yeah, you don't need so much logic branching and so many different things. It's like pop out. Yeah. Like some kind of mid funnel thing that like, is the true problem that your product solves for. And if they engage with that, they're probably likely experiencing the problem. And so you can probably reach out and help.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:13]:
Yeah. And also, like, depending on your buyer, maybe sales doesn't even make sense. Like, maybe this is the start of relationship building where you're like, it doesn't even go that far down to sales. Like that made sense for us back then. But like, you know, I keep thinking about this LinkedIn post that I shared like two weeks ago. And it was about getting buy in for your marketing strategy. And it was a typical like, Devin rant. But I got a bunch of people messaging me in LinkedIn being like, oh my gosh, like, this is my exact problem.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:50]:
Do you have more advice on this? And if I was a brand, like, trying to have a business purpose about this. Right. It's like two weeks later. I didn't even post this week because I don't have time. I still got like two messages yesterday from people who are like, oh, OMG. And like, do you have more advice? And all I did was like rant about something. I mean, I didn't react. It was meaningful and intentional and all that.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:16]:
But the conversation itself is valuable because these people, even if they had wanted to talk to me before, like, this has happened to me where I'm like, I want to reach out to this person. I don't know what I like, what to ask them besides, like, hi, I want to know you as a person. Right. And so sometimes that activity alone just gives them a reason, reason to reach out, which I think is cool.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:40]:
Yeah. And again, going back to like, that's when community becomes so helpful as a practice that also then can be used if you want or need it to. As marketing is this idea of like, if you hit a pain point that everyone else is experiencing and people can share in that feeling of like, oh, I feel that way too. Like, that's powerful. Right? Like, I just keep coming back to that. I think that most companies should consider community as a business strategy because I think there's just so much there.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:15]:
This is literally like researching my book has been fascinating because I was like, I've been doing the same thing my entire career, even starting from a point where I didn't actually know marketing. I just got myself a job.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:30]:
Did not take any business class. I mean, I was a PR major, but that Was in the school of communications.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:35]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:36]:
Didn't take any business classes.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:37]:
I did not know how to use the Facebook business portal or whatever back then. And I think part of it has to do with the fact that two things. One, I worked in customer service first, and that's all about like deep conversations with people. There used to be this platform called Get Satisfaction, stuff like that still exists today, but it's basically like a forum so that other users can answer questions for you and then you moderate it. And then the second thing is, before I even did customer support, I did this job called community management, which back then was like kind of ad hoc and like, you know, having conversations on Twitter and making friends there, like on behalf of the brand. Right. This is when brands still interacted. And I look at it now and I'm like, okay, wait, if you, like, you're even the amount you spend on.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:27]:
Cause I still believe in like, including. I still think it's logical in a lot of cases to include paid tactics in various stages of your marketing plan and not as the blunt force instrument that people say. But I'm not going to talk about that because actually I figured that out by talking to Kim Parker and Kristen Young, who are experts in this area. And they taught me this. And so until I fully have put this together, I don't want to say. But like, they were, they were talking to me about like using it for Audi, like messaging, message testing and audience research and all this stuff that I just didn't think about because I wasn't, I didn't grow up in that area. And I'm like, imagine if you're building relationships with people, like actual relationships, you're talking to humans, most of your marketing strategy and then running those campaigns or whatever, right? It's like you could feature a user in your campaign with their permission and be like, will you be part of this with me? And make the, everything you do feel more community forward instead of the brand just shouting at people. Right? Like, why are we leading with solutions? Why aren't we leading with people?
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:40]:
Yeah. And people that have problems that make other people feel seen and heard and valid that other people exist. I think that's a big human thing of like any problem that we're dealing with, whether it's personal, professional, whatever, we have this fear of like, oh God, I'm the only person dealing with this problem. And it's like, the more that you can share those, those things, the more people are like, oh, yeah, okay. And then that gives them the confidence to actually look for A solution or start talking about different ways to solve it. I'm thinking about even, like, personally how many times that I'm like, don't even realize that I need a solution until I start talking about my problem. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I need to probably figure that out.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:19]:
Yeah. And you want to know what happens? It's the person who helps you find the solution that you remember, not the tool.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:27]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:27]:
Like, Christine Orchard was like, you should use Phantom Buster in this specific way for this specific purpose.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:35]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:36]:
And it's like, I remember her. She's the one who I recommend to people if they need any kind of, like, LinkedIn content, strategy or writing. I'm like, go to Christine Orchard. She knows what the F she's doing, Right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:46]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:47]:
And it's not the tool. And I think that's even more so today. Like, back in the day, you used to care about the software brands. Right. But now that software, so part of our society. It's a utility, which means that I don't care what brand of tool I'm using. I care about finding a solution to my problem and having that solution be affordable and something I know how to use.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:09]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:09]:
And that usually requires someone else to help.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:11]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:12]:
And I'm like, that's where I feel indebted to. I feel indebted to the person who helped me find it, so.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:18]:
Like, ice, ice, baby. What if you got a problem?
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:22]:
Oh, yeah. You know, that's really funny that I just had, like, that little, like, brain break for a moment. Because actually one of the first jobs that I had was at this out of after college was at this tutoring company. We did, like, tutoring for college students. You would do, like, cram sessions for your, like, large classes of, like, you know, organic chemistry or whatever. Like those big ones that you would all sit in the hall. We would, like, do tutoring sessions. So you could, like, only do the tutoring session and still hopefully ace the test.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:53]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:54]:
And it was like, physical buildings off campus that people would come to these actual sessions. And then back to your Facebook thing. We were right around that time starting to, like, build a web app so you could virtually watch your cram session. Cool. Anyways, that's how old I am. But anyways, we had a physical location, and I made all the front desk staff T shirts that said that on it. It was like, if you got a problem, yo, I'll solve it on the t-shirts.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:24]:
So I did kind of slip it in there.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:27]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:28]:
I'm like. You're like, ice, ice. Like, I'm like. I'm on the rap train today, I guess.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:34]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:35]:
Infor to the ERP yeah. We did great today. I'm proud of us.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:40]:
We did great.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:42]:
Okay, y'all, that's a wrap. Thank you, as always, for listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:46]:
We'll be back next week. And just remember, you're doing great. You're doing great.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:52]:
30% of you are doing great. The rest, you gotta get your shit together. Come on.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:57]:
You know. You know which side you're on this week.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:00]:
You know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:01]:
You know. See you next week.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:03]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:04]:
Bye. Well, I'm gonna go finish that bowl of cereal that's probably mush now, but. Oh, no, it's okay. I kind of like mushy cereal sometimes.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:16]:
Ew. That's one of those things that, like, grosses me out, even though I know it's not gross.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:22]:
It's like cereal milk.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:23]:
Yeah.