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"Listening with your ears and realizing that you have biased ears just as much as they have a biased mouth." - Tiffany Braxton
"We teach our kids according to the reality of this world, not according to what we want." - Tiffany Braxton
"I didn't say I wish you didn't feel that way. I said, actually, it's really good that you feel that way." - Tiffany Braxton
Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.
Welcome back to raising men.
Now, I there's something that happened recently that that I feel like I want to weigh in
on, but I'm actually scared to weigh in on it.
And that is the the situation that happened in Cornell.
And I have a lot of thoughts about it.
I've been thinking a lot about, you know, it's what it says about masculinity and the in
the in the masculinity crisis.
And that's something I have some knowledge about.
and I've been thinking a lot about how I would talk about it with my own boy if he were of
an age where that would make sense.
And the thought that occurred to me is that I I don't feel like I have the necessary
expertise.
It's outside of my lane, but I do have a connection with somebody whose lane it is fully
within, and that is Tiffany Braxton.
And so I brought Tiffany on.
to talk with me about how she's thinking about this and how she's been dealing with this
with her own children.
Tephanie, welcome back to Raising Men and thank you so much for
taking your time and energy to talk with me about this today.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
And honestly, as you were saying, being fearful about talking about it, I think I think
all of us are there.
because any of us that want to do some good, we are so just trying not to step on the
wrong toes that like actually need to hear this, you know?
And so I so I'm right there with you.
I feel like a lot
of the a lot of the discourse around this subject is has frankly been not productive.
~
I I mean I think it's it's productive if you're a conflict entrepreneur.
It's productive if you are, you know, trying to engage in the culture war, and it's
productive if you're trying to, I don't know, make profits in your social media company.
But it it's not productive from the standpoint of actually improving the situation on the
ground.
And
I thought, based on our last conversation and all that, I thought, well, we have at least
an opportunity to have a productive conversation about it.
And really
what I really want to understand is, how have you thought about this?
What is your sense of of of the the the the culture around this?
But particularly what is the what are the tactical moves that you're making in with your
own kids who
are of the right age, who are, you know, you have boys, you have a girl, like
Tell me about that.
That is really, really what I'm what I'm profoundly interested in.
Yeah, yeah.
And and this has obvious has obviously been on my mind.
This is literally what I do teaching consent.
and it's interesting because this is the first time that I've been out there with my book
and all of my work, and then a news story hits.
And sadly I know it's not gonna be the last time.
That's what's sad about this, right?
So
I'm right now in a time where everybody is rolling off the word consent you know, off of
their tongue, and it's something where I'm
I'm like, okay, everybody's everybody's talking about this thing I've been talking about.
Right.
~
They're using the term, but they're not necessarily talking about the actual thing.
Yeah.
And that's that that's
the nature of the unpredictability.
Exactly, exactly.
And the thing is, as much as I I say consent, I say a lot of other things because
obviously that's what consent is about, that respect, that equality.
and I always, always equate it to valuing human beings, you know, valuing yourself and
valuing other people.
You know, a lot of times if we are practicing that as our kind of utmost calling, then you
usually practice consent pretty naturally.
even if you don't
have all the scenarios and if, ands, and buts, you're like, hmm, I care about this person
and what and what they're doing.
and I certainly don't want to hurt them.
And so, you know, just kind of like what you were saying in terms of talking to my own
kids, I have to say that I've talked with my son about it.
I've talked a little bit, tiny bit with my daughter about it.
She's, you know, she knows all of the news.
She's 15.
And so if there's one thing that kids know at that age, it's like they know all the news
that hits, and they also know all of the psychological.
phrases in order to like use that against you and stuff like that.
And so that's like two things with my daughter right now.
And so you know with her, it's like I know that that's like that's on on her mind.
We haven't had a time to sit down and talk specifically about everything.
But just like what I'm gonna say with my son
I've had ongoing conversations with them about these things.
I feel like I would be a little bit of a hypocrite if I came up here and I was like, hey,
I, my job is saying, hey, parents, talk with your kids about these things.
obviously, I have a comic book, so I'm like, hey, use these stories and talk with your
kids.
And so when I approached my son about it, he did not know about this story.
And it had been out for I want to say for a couple weeks at that point.
and he still was kind of like in Lava Land.
I Hey, did you?
About Cornell, and I'm thinking, he's gonna say, yeah, mommy was like terrible, and he's
he's 12.
And so, just to give you that context, I feel like it's such a good age, to where you
know, I can talk a lot more about the specifics now.
and so you know, I told him you know what what happened with the story, and he had some
different clarifying questions, and overall, you know, he was just he was horrified.
He thought, like, my gosh, how could this how could this happen?
And you know, that's
That conversation I realized it was so easy to have with him because it was really just a
continuation of conversations we've already been having, on top of the fact that he's he's
read my book.
And so I know he kind of he knows like the in fact, this is kind of funny.
He I asked him, I said, Did you what did you learn about after he read my book?
And he literally said to me nothing.
And I was like, What do you mean nothing?
You know?
I'm like, what do you mean nothing?
a what both at the same time, what a beautiful thing to say, but also what an insult.
Like it's it's the
same there that I love that.
That is I love that response.
Yeah.
if your kids watch your podcast, what'd you think?
it's all right, right?
Like that's it's
like the typical kid answer.
But when he said that, I was like, Well, what do you mean?
And he said, Well, I'm a good boy, I I I know I know these things.
I I understand, what you do and stuff.
and I was like, okay.
But he said, We but there are some guy some boys that I know that could use this, you
know?
And I was like, That's great.
Now of course I know that he did
get the fact that there's specific scenarios.
And so I know w if he's ever in one of those situations, the comics are gonna kick in with
the stories and he's gonna remember some of the the tactics and the scripts and how you
should treat people.
But the thing is, with my son, we've worked so hard throughout the years of I've made sure
that he truly values women.
and and sees them, you know, sees them as beings to care about, you know.
And you know, I think that's partly like he's naturally ch naturally that.
But I mean we've you know myself, my my oldest daughters, you know, I have two older
adopted daughters, and he's seen like we've kind of taken opportunities to when something
happens in real life, whether it's one of his older sisters relationships and something
happens.
Yeah.
W I don't keep them in the dark.
Now, of course I keep it age appropriate, but if there's been, a bad relationship there
that he can learn something from in terms of how you treat someone and what that should
look like, I've made sure to do that.
And so when I when we're having these conversations like Cornell, it's really building off
of something that's been done.
To the fact where I love it.
He'll say, a lot of times I'll say my gosh, JJ, that boy is so sweet.
Cause he'll have he'll bring some some kid around.
And I'm like, the, the boy's being really sweet to me.
And my son will stop me and say, no, mom.
And I'm like, what do you mean, no?
He's like, you should see the way he treat girl treats girls.
And I'm
like, what?
You know, and so that that alone for my son is enough for him to say, like
no, that guy has some questionable be questionable behavior and it's enough for me to say
I don't want you to call him sweet because there are some things about him that are not
sweet, And so you know, with like a like going back to Cornell, I say all those things
because it's like the c the consent conversations have been had.
The valuing women, you know, has been had.
honestly, like
over the summer he brought around more girlfriends, you know, girls as friends than my
daughter did.
Because he just like he's like, okay, well these are these are great people to be around,
you know, and that's really I love it 'cause that's how he sees it, you know.
you know, and I'm not saying that there's not like some crushers mixed in there, but the
way that he treats people and specifically girls and women, you know, I've definitely made
it a point to to talk about that with him.
And, you know
And a lot of that stems from, like I said, his older sisters and seeing them go through
things and and knowing, what it looks like to even have unhealthy relationships.
but then also like the healthy relationships piece as well.
which, you know, honestly, I think part of that, like he, you know, he says, like, I
didn't get anything from, you know, your comics, but I'm like, he definitely got that.
~
you know, firsthand is get gets to see like what that looks like to truly respect, you
know, someone.
And so
So, that was the conversation with my son, very easy.
I almost like am dreading the one with my daughter a little bit more.
Because that one is like it's gonna have to just face the reality of, hey, we live in a
society where, you're not always gonna be safe.
and ideally you can do whatever you want, you can be as wild as you want, and there's
still safety there.
but it's kind of like the a few weeks ago, or actually it was just a week ago, she went
and hung out with her friends and they went to like an outdoor festival.
She ended up being like the last girl there, the last person there, really.
And she's 15, okay?
gosh.
And she she just got mixed up on the timing, and so I was not able to get out the door.
you know, she was calling me and saying everybody's leaving, you know, and not not, hey,
they're leaving in 10 minutes.
Can you get here?
And so
I you know, because of that, I told her, I'm like, okay, well, you're 15.
I need you to s stay on the phone with me.
I want you to stay on the phone with me.
And I'm dri I'm driving like as fast as I can, but also as safe as I can at the same time.
my gosh.
more.
Yeah.
but I had to give her all of those all of this wisdom that I learned as I got older.
You know, I kind of gave to my daughter in that moment.
So I was like, hey, I need you to make sure you're on a well-lit street, you know, stay
there.
Hey, I want you to make sure that street is full of people that you feel like are there
for a reason and not just kind of looking to see what they, you know, want to do, you
know, and and so I, you know, I stayed on the phone with her and thankfully when I drove
up.
She was there and she was like, and it was it was like the perfect situation, honestly.
As I drove there, I was like, my gosh, she, you know, she she did the wise decision of she
was there, and and not only were people there for a reason, there was like a restaurant
there.
And so people were sitting out eating, you know, and
I was like, Yes, she got it.
But the whole time she was on the phone and she was nervous, you know, and she even told
me, quote unquote, I just feel really vulnerable right now.
And I said, Well.
I didn't say I wish you didn't feel that way.
I said, actually, it's really good that you feel that way because I want you to feel that
way in situations like that.
I don't want you to feel like you can just be anywhere and you're gonna be okay.
I want you to feel like I want those alarm bells to be going off that say, hey, I need to
do XYZ to make sure I'm okay, you know, tonight.
and so yeah, there was there's kind of like that.
I am definitely, as I'm telling you that, I'm gonna tie that into the
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I I I I once was speaking to an animal rights activist who had a he was talking to me
about the idea of having game reserves where people could hunt exotic animals, even
endangered exotic
animals.
And he was from Africa, and
Obviously, they have a big poaching problem there.
And there's there's a there's a really serious, there are serious issues around that whole
thing.
And he says,
he says, we manage to save more of these animals by allowing people to hunt them and
creating a business around this than we
have, than than these other much more well-funded organizations have by creating
restrictions and parks and enforcing laws
and stuff.
Because
and and the important thing is to think about you you have to you have to make a
distinction between thinking about the specimen and thinking about the species.
And they're two separate conversations.
And actually, this is what you're talking about in reverse.
As a species, it would be nice if we lived in a culture and in a world where our where
your daughter didn't have to feel
Right.
she was at risk just because she was out after dark in public.
But as a specimen, the reality of the situation is that she was at risk.
And it again, it would be nice if she could live her life and never have to feel that fear
or those alarm bells or anything like that.
We should work
towards that.
Yes, exactly.
But the fact that she does feel those things are a safety mechanism, and we shouldn't
suppress that.
And
and so it's it's just you know, and and I'm coming from a place where I'm six foot five,
I'm white, I'm
I weigh two hundred and thirty pounds,
Mm-hmm.
I'm a lot safer than sh i in that circumstance than she would be.
Yes, yeah.
And and so
Again, I'm I'm coming from a place of of privilege there.
And so like I I'm
I'm I'm fully aware of that.
But you know, I mean like you have to deal with the reality of the situation on the
ground, I think, in that and ~
it's it's hard because I think that the there are conflict entrepreneurs who are just
totally resistant to you know, no, we shouldn't have to tell women to to you know to do
those things.
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Like
I think we're all in agreement.
It would be nice
if we d if we couldn't do that.
But then we're we're mixing up the conversation between the species and the specimen in
that circumstance.
yeah.
No, I I think that's I think that's a really good point.
I think, the other piece of it is like myself as a black woman, we are always and and
black parents, you know, we we teach our kids according to the reality of this world, not
according to what we want.
You know, not like what Martin Luther King Jr.
wanted even.
We still have that dream.
We still have that dream, but it's still a dream that we're working toward, you know.
Yes, exactly.
And so you know, what with even with
My son, right?
I have to teach him the reality of don't be in that kind of situation.
Don't you dare be in a room where you are, one of seven men, and there is one woman, and
and on top of that, she's inebriated.
Don't you dare, if you are like I would get so angry with him because I, I'm already,
honestly, I'm already talking to him about those risks of being in a situation where you
could end.
up in a lot of trouble.
and that the first wrong decision is being in that room.
Okay?
That that don't you dare go in there.
Obviously we you know if we're talking about the yes that's what I was gonna say.
That's the other aspect, right?
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent be the person that like that speaks up.
and you know, I think that's also, you know, when we're talking about the ages of what can
we talk about when it comes to this consent piece, I think that's actually what I think
any age can understand.
and that is one
the ability to be able to make a decision, you know, when I I'm actually gonna be having a
a nice little conversation with my seven year old grandson, you know, from my adopted
daughters.
And so, you know, from one of my adopted daughters, and I and I plan on really framing it
in the sense of, you know, pressure.
Like what does it look like to be making a decision where there's no pressure involved?
What does it make what does it look like to be making a decision, you know, when there is,
you know, and like the even
The amount of people in that room.
I would never want to, it's almost reminds me of when people are doing interviews and they
have a panel, and it's like they're asking you questions and there's seven people looking
at you for an answer, right?
Like even
then we know what that would feel like.
my gosh, I better make sure these words are specific.
But I am I'm thinking about that when it comes to, my seven-year-old grandson, but I'm
also thinking about a lot of times, we talk about, being drunk.
And and high and whatever.
But I always say to people, when you really value someone, you always want them to just
when you're asking them anything of them, you want them to be in the right headspace to
make that decision anyway, right?
So, if someone's stressed, that's not a great time to say, hey, can you just can you just
help me with this?
or or you know, if someone's sad, right?
If someone's emotionally distraught, even, you know, like I when I am when I am like over
it, you know, and I'm just like, my gosh, I have.
So many things going on, and I'm feeling overwhelmed or I'm feeling extremely sad, I'm not
good at making any decisions.
any important decisions, don't bring them to me right now there in that moment.
I'm trying to get some space for clarity.
And so I think, when it comes to these different ages, you can bring in aspects that
they'll understand, and instead of like we, you know, we don't have to talk about the
drinking yet.
Although some of these ages know about that already with movies, you know what I mean?
Like, you know, they
see people in movies stumbling and slurring right they know that that's not a good time to
make a decision but I think like when it comes to consent you know the choice like the
choice aspect and when it is you're asking to have asking someone to make a choice those
are the important pieces you know and that's kind of part of the building blocks with this
is you know when you're asking something of someone are they really able to answer in that
moment what does it look like when they're able to answer you know
And with my with my grandson, you know, I might even say like, you know, if three of your
friends are asking one of one of, you know, another friend, you know, to like play a game
they don't want to play, if all three of you are asking in that moment, how do you think
that person feels?
How would you feel?
You know, if you were that person, you know, so there's different things that, you know,
I've already been thinking about like, hmm, how can I how can I use this moment not only
for my older kids, but also for my, you know, even my seven-year-old grandson.
Yeah, and what that makes me think of is so w one of kind of my core sort of feelings
about the the
hallmarks of of of healthy masculinity is that there's there's a bias towards protection.
And I think what that means in more in practice or even along the lines that you're
talking about is that there's a bias.
You're trying to create the environment where people are are free to make decisions for
themselves
Right.
and with you know free of the kinds of free of influences that you know might
And and that they have all the information and all of those things.
And that that doesn't
just go for things like what happened in Cornell.
It goes for business decisions.
It goes for, you
know, deciding what major to have or in college and all
all sorts of things.
It's w one of the things that that we need to be doing that that a that a healthy man
needs to do in our culture is to create that environment.
And
we need to consider it our role to do that.
Yeah.
And because that's where humanity can thrive.
That's where our whole goal is to create a situation where people are able to reach their
potential.
And
you know, and they might and they might not.
Where it's it's not up to me to make sure my son reaches his potential.
It is up to me to make sure my son has the opportunity to reach his potential.
And the same is true
for.
My friends.
The same is true for my the the people that work under me or the my coworkers and all that
stuff.
And and that's what that's one of the hallmarks of of healthy masculinity.
And
and I I think that I think that that's the the place where the discourse is is become
unproductive is is has lost sight of.
Yeah, yeah.
No, and I I love the way you put that too because it it makes me think obviously of the
group text that everybody's talking about, right?
If
if just even one of stepped in and said, Hey, let me go first of all, check and see what's
going on.
And then secondly, like, my gosh, like, no, this isn't right, you know, and and stepped
in, that would be that would be you know, that would've I mean that would've made the
story so much so much different, you know.
there would have been a hero.
There would have been
hero there, ~
and hero in the sense of like, gosh, you know, you really practiced some, you know, basic
human decency, or at least what I would hope would be basic human decency there.
but unfortunately you instead we get this story where we look at the 50 and we just wonder
like what was going on for them not to say anything or do anything or even want to go and
see what the heck is going on.
Like this sounds wacky.
You know what I mean?
that I said with my daughter, the alarm bells.
I I want my son to have those kind of alarm bells, that say, my gosh, what is my friend
doing over there?
You know, that girl, like we could even just be at a party.
That girl is clearly like not with it.
What is my friend doing trying to lead her upstairs?
That's
not okay.
You know, that kind of thing is is really like what what we need to work toward as a
society, where you
know, peop it's not just her girlfriends that are trying to take care of her, but it's the
people around her.
and it's it's whoever might be taking advantage of that person.
Their friends too are like, hold up, that's not okay.
You know, that's not something that you do.
I have this thing that happened to me when I was about twenty six, I think.
I had a girlfriend.
We had this really tumultuous relationship, this girl and I.
And I ended up going so we're just like we were always fighting about stuff and and
it was just it it was it was a really tumultuous relationship.
And she she had she was friends with her ex boyfriend, and you know, they they kind of had
a a a weird like
it w that wasn't quite resolved totally either.
And I I was like
it was it was complex for for all those reasons.
And she had a party at her house.
And and the ex-boyfriend was there, I was there.
And my girlfriend got really drunk.
Hm.
and I was irritated with her.
I didn't drink at all at that time.
Yeah.
And I was annoyed that she got so drunk.
And I was annoyed that she was being a little bit furtacious with her ex boyfriend.
And I was annoyed about the whole thing.
I was just pissy.
And
The boyfriend ended up walking her and taking her into her bedroom.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was annoyed at that.
Like w what
is she doing going along with him and all that stuff?
And I was fully wallowing in my own kind of
feelings about this issue, this situation.
Yeah.
And her friend to me, her I was talking to a friend of hers, and her friend looked me in
the eye and said to me, She said, You need to do something.
Mm, my gosh.
Yeah.
And I went, my God, I need to do something.
Right, right.
And I thought about it for a second.
By the way, the the boyfriend was in the military.
He was in a special forces unit.
he had four of his friends with him.
Yeah, wow.
This I was by myself.
This was not like a the anyway, there's there's considerations there.
Yeah, yeah.
I stormed into the room and I grabbed her.
I said, Hey, we gotta get out of here.
And I picked her up and carried her out.
Carried her to my car and I got in the car.
And the thought that
occurred to me, so there was the way that it worked is she lived in an apartment building
that had a kind of a horseshoe exit.
And the place where her apartment was, there the there was an exit like a couple hundred
feet away
Mm-hmm.
to my left.
But I could drive around the building and get out a different exit if I went the long way.
And
the way that my car was situated and the way that her apartment was situated, my car, her
apartment was between my car and the exit.
And it occurred to me that this guy is gonna come out of there with his friends.
Right.
And so I had the presence of mind to drive the long way out and and get out.
And and sure enough, I saw I looked at her in my rearview mirror, and he and his buddies
were it was like in a it was in a movie or something.
His buddies come out and
and and the realization that I had at that moment is he thinks that she's that he's put
they're protecting her from me.
Right, wow.
And
And but but I was protecting her from them.
Right, right.
And but I almost didn't.
Hm.
I almost
I almost let it happen because
I was so in my own place.
Right.
And if that had been in modern days, it all would have been filmed and it all would have
been in text messages and it would have been in court depositions
and it could have been if it had gone the other way, if her friend hadn't had the presence
of mind to say to me, You need to do something.
And I hadn't
that hadn't shocked me out.
If she hadn't done that, I wouldn't have done something.
Yeah, yeah.
I I would have been complicit in this thing.
Mm-hmm.
And I think about that a lot, especially in the context of this thing.
Like like
is yeah.
I mean that's
It's easy to get you don't have the perspective.
You're in the moment.
You don't have the perspective.
Mm-hmm.
And so like the only way the other the other story that this makes me think of, and and
it's I I'll drive it home in a minute.
It won't seem like it's relevant, but I'll drive it home in a minute.
Is that I once so I I I I fly airplanes ~
as for fun.
Okay.
And I was taking some some training, some aerobatic training where I was learning how to
how to do stalls and spins and loops and and all this crazy stuff, flat spins, inverted
spins, others.
I was doing this really, really advanced spin training in this aerobatic aircraft.
And while I was one morning, it was like a week long course, and one morning I
went out there and and I was getting the airplane ready to to to go and an air an airplane
took off.
On the runway, right, right in front of me.
I just watched it take off.
It was a Piper Cherokee, I believe.
And and I'm, you know, kind of cleaning off and getting the airplane ready, and and some
guys run out of the building that I was next
to.
And they're like, Did you see that?
Did you see that?
And I didn't see it.
What had happened is that Piper Cherokee took off with a with a student and an instructor
in it.
And they got about 600 feet above the ground and the engine failed.
And
They the airplane stalled and spun and they crashed.
Wow.
And they both died in that crash.
And I I mean, I didn't quite witness it happen, but it felt like I witnessed it happen.
And here I am in the middle
of this like really crazy spin training.
Training that that instructor had to have in order to get, you know, not not quite the
extensive training that I went through, but he had to have spin
training in order to get his di to get his instructor rating.
And and what I realized from that moment is
There are situations that you have no idea how you'll respond to because the response
happens
in your limbic system.
It happens in what I the Conan brain, ~ in my terminology.
And you
think you know how you'll do it because you have intellectually experienced you, you have
trained your your your Sherlock Holmes brain to deal with
this situation, but your Conan brain has never dealt with it.
And
Most situations actually, until your Conan brain gets trained to do the thing, you won't
actually do it.
And that's what happened with this instructor.
He wasn't
and and the student and all of that.
I mean, this thing shouldn't have happened.
They should have been able to deal with this, this,
this situation without safely.
And instead, instead, they didn't.
And I it just blew me away because and these people, this instructor had way more
experience than I did.
Mm-hmm.
And
He this happened to him.
it could totally happen to me.
What's the difference?
And the and
the realization I had is that you you actually have to train your coding brain there.
And I
think that's true about this too.
Like I was
in that situation where I, you know, kind of was in my own stuff and I was feeling
aggrieved and all and all of that.
I I I
got into a situation where I would have been complicit in this really awful.
Yeah, yeah.
And it wasn't until until like I got shocked out of that.
My Sherlock Holmes brain got shocked out of this like like self-pity that
I actually ended up doing the right thing.
And so like you actually and I think that has to happen with I mean you're making it
happen with your with your son in just having this kind of constant communications about
yeah how how about this or
how would you deal with it?
And it has to happen slowly over time.
It's not like by the time
You get to college and you're on a 50-person text chain that contains that
kind of stuff, it's too late.
You better have
practiced that or you better have thought about it or you better have done and this is our
opportunity to do that.
Yes.
And I think we're squandering it culturally.
I think
I think we're allowing it as a culture, not individually.
And actually I I don't think I know any particular individual who would want this to
happen, but
It is happening anyway, which is that it's getting hijacked by by the culture wars and as
a result is becoming another one of these things that is a squandered opportunity to
really make progress.
And
and and anyway, I pr that it's why I appreciate the work that you do, because you're so
thoughtful
about how you approach it and you try to approach it in a way that's that's accessible to
everybody that isn't contributing to the cult to the culture war.
And that that is productive and and I mean I'll just go ahead and take this opportunity.
I have read your book and I I got a lot out of it.
It it it
opened my eyes in a number of ways and it's it's so supremely accessible and it's so such
a such a good in fact my only quibble with it, and you and I have talked about this is I
wish that there were stories.
I I wish there was a version of the book that I could share with my son, but the stories
aren't quite
ready for that.
Like he's needs to be older.
He's so he's only seven and the s and the stories are they're they're about sexual
activity mostly.
And and but but consent isn't just about that.
It's about a bunch of things.
And and there's there there's
there's a version of that book that may maybe maybe you'll make another version of the
book, you know, for for younger kids.
Yeah, yeah.
but that's my only quibble.
And but but yeah and and just
I know.
Thanks for doing that and and and thanks for educating me on on this subject and and being
a resource to me.
I I I really appreciate it and and I think the audience probably has gotten a lot out of
it.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I I hope so.
And I will say, definitely working on the younger version, actually, in the next couple
months here.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah.
think.
Yeah.
No, you know, for me it was like I wanted to focus on sexual consent first, you know.
obviously the news shows that we need it, unfortunately.
or that that's the shar the the the the sharp edge of of the of the discussion.
yes.
But the I think that taking the sexual part of it out of it makes the topic a lot more
accessible to people.
I think, you know, guys
like me, we've been sort of conditioned by
the culture, the way that the the discourse has evolved in the culture to
be pretty resistant to a lot of the discussion around that because
it tends to be rather accusatory.
Mm-hmm.
It tends to frame the entire dis discussion as like I'm a potenti a a potential assailant.
And and I I
mean I'm just not going to be receptive to that messaging because I don't feel like I am.
Even if it were true, I
wouldn't feel like I am.
And so that messaging, it's not, it's not designed to to to reach me.
Mm-hmm.
in fact to alienate me.
Whether or not that's what you're doing.
and I think that the people who do that are probably more savvy than than and the people
that do it for a living are are pretty savvy about it, I think.
And I
think that the people who contribute to the to the discussion in what I consider to be an
unproductive way.
I maybe they're not savvy enough to understand that that's what they're doing, but it is.
And they're they're they're they're they're they're engaging in the discussion in a way
that that
turns off the people that most need to need to hear the message.
And that that
that and you're squandering the opportunity to give them the tools to actually deal with
it.
Because literally there's not I mean I'd be surprised if anybody on that checks chain
feels good about their participation in that situation.
And even at the time maybe and I'd
just be surprised.
And may you know, I don't know.
There's been things that surprise me.
So that can happen.
But I I mean I've just
I've never known
Yeah, actually here's what I can say from my own personal experience is I literally have
never met somebody ever in my entire life or had a discussion with anybody who would feel
that way.
Mm-hmm.
And and so and so maybe they've hit it from me or maybe, you know, but but but who I
concluded would feel that way.
And so
I I mean
We need a more productive way to to talk about it and I don't know.
I I I I agree with that, you know, and that that was obviously one of my goals, you know,
to make sure that men, boys felt welcome.
And, you know, I obviously because we've been talking about Cornell, you know, I'm talking
with my son one way, but there are times when I'm talking with him the other way because I
want him to feel like he can have boundaries just as much as a woman can have boundaries.
~ and that they should
Mm-hmm.
what it means for a woman to have boundaries.
it's it it
applies equally everywhere.
Like it is
so let me ask you this question.
We've talked a lot about how you've dealt with the discussion with your son and and your
daughter and all of that specifically.
But what about the discourse around the conversation?
How I mean, how do you think about training your son?
To engage in the discourse around this in a productive way, around like when he's at
school or something like that.
I mean, you know, and
and maybe he's not old enough for this to be an issue, but if you were 17, it would be
they're talking about it around it in the lunchroom and stuff like that.
How how do
you think people should think about how they train their boys to have discussions around
this that don't turn unproductive?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's that's actually a really great question.
I think obviously one, it depends on your kid.
There are some kids who are just firecrackers and you you have to tone that down, you
know.
like my grandson, he's a firecracker.
He will he's I mean, I remember took him to the playground and he was telling everybody
how how not to play with certain, you know, toys on the playground.
You know, that's that's a soft for him.
I'd be like, You need to tone it down, everything's not
rule for my son you know he thankfully he's he's really thoughtful and I know he already
you know because he has a lot of female friends he sticks up a lot for them and so you
know I I think for for that kind of conversation I I would even ask him like what has been
your you know your approach before or your history and conversations where you felt like
you know the guys around were saying really
disrespectful or possibly hurtful things about women, you know, and have any of your
friends been talking about this?
What have those conversations been like?
And so I try to I first would try to feel you know feel out like what he's experienced you
know in terms of like what's already happened.
And then with you know moving forward, you know, take whatever he's given me.
And if he gives me zero then we will then we start from scratch of you know how do you
have a productive conversation you know like one you
know making sure you are regulating your feelings because I think when yeah I think there
are there's a time and a place to get emotional you know sure advocacy you know if you're
if you're speaking about even these laws and you have your own story you know I I probably
I I probably want to feel that you know but when it comes to like you know conversations
with people you know in the future in the workplace or whatever it might be I think it's
always really important to realize that everybody's coming from their
own experiences and their own lives and
No two people are you can you can really love someone and come from two completely
different angles on the same topic, right?
So I
I would just really encourage him to listen and then to not make a snap judgment about
someone just because they said one little thing, but to to ask.
Keep on asking questions.
Well you well, what makes you think that way?
Have you had any experiences like that?
You know, and then if it's obviously if it's something, you know, terrible like a group.
chat that's offering, you free whatever, there you can just shut that down, right?
So that that's not a discussion.
That's a this is terrible.
we need to stop this right now.
But I think the biggest thing is is the listening piece.
You know, listening with your ears and realizing that you have biased ears just as much as
they have a biased mouth.
Yeah, I I I think I would add one other component to that, which is that the vast majority
of people are engaging in good faith.
Not everybody is.
~
but the vast majority of people are.
And so, like, if two people are engaging in something in good faith, then then there is a
productive conversation to be had.
And so, like, seek that out.
Yes.
And and you know, and s find common ground, maybe I I you know, I don't
That's that that's good insight.
Yeah, yeah.
it's the our the whole world struggles with that, right?
You know how it is.
much worse.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, we're just
you know, I mean there are a lot of people who make a lot of money doing the opposite
thing.
And you th can make
you can make a lot of money as a controv conflict entrepreneur and you can make Facebook a
lot of money doing it too, or X
or whatever, you know, so that's engagement, that's clicks, that's all that's in the
attention economy.
Even bad attention is good.
And so, you know.
But I don't know, I I just have a hard time thinking that ten years from now, people who
had certain takes on this situation will be proud of what they've said.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, that's a that's a good point.
I think gosh, what'd you say?
That's kinda depressing, but is it's a reality, right?
It is the reality of what we are dealing with.
a lot of what we see is based upon an algorithm and not a based upon like what is actually
good for, you know, humanity, unfortunately.
yeah, yeah.
The algorithm the algorithm maximizes profits.
I mean, it's
not and and I mean it would be nice if that were aligned with
Mm-hmm.
with humanity.
That's that'd be great.
And to some extent it is slightly.
You know, it's to some degree.
I mean, there are
ways in which it can be, but in a lot of ways it's not.
And it's just important to keep that in mind and and use the tool,
you know, it's a tool for good, it's just as much as it is for.
Yeah, yeah.
Just like this Cornell situation, we can use it for good, that's for sure.
Yeah.
right.
And and yeah, we should try.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tiffany, thank you so much again.
I I I just can't tell you how much I appreciate your your thoughtfulness and your wisdom
and and just the way that you approach this.
I get so much smarter every time I talk to you and and I
just really, really appreciate it.
I I I appreciate that opportunity.
Yeah, thanks.
I think that's probably the best compliment.
Can you tell my partner to say the same thing to me?
I feel like
yeah,
give me a call and I'll I'll I'll ~ I'll I'll I'll give them some some some tidbits.
I I don't know.
I I I I don't know that I have any advice, but I definitely have words.
Well thanks again and and to everybody listening, thank
you.
definitely check out Tiffany's book.
It's called Consent Comics.
~ consentcomics.com.
The links are in the show notes.
I have a copy.
I will try to get it signed one of these days.
And
but it's it's just really, really, really good way.
both in terms of the content and also in terms of the the way that it approaches these
these really, really difficult topics is it's just so wise and and it's so so helpful.
So and remember,
you are a great parent.