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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, we were going to talk about something that was evergreen that we could put in the bank and use whenever. And I still think it's a great topic and we'll get to it. However, I said, I don't know. We're recording this to be fully transparent the day before the 4th of July. So the July 3rd, it'll come out shortly after that. And I was like, I just, to me, I feel like what happened on the 1st with Supreme Court ruling about presidential immunity feels too big to not talk about, I guess.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, it would be weird if we didn't mention it. Mm -hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp: So it feels like it, right? Like, I feel like it's something that we should probably discuss and I have thoughts and I'm sure you do too.
Taina Brown: I do have thoughts. I came across somebody who posted something on Instagram, somebody that I follow this morning. It's a picture of Ben Affleck on his Duncan run or something. It's just when we needed him the most, pics of Ben Affleck struggling with the unbearable weight of being alive while on a Duncan run just dropped. He's wearing this shirt that says raw dog in life. And that's what I feel like. I feel like we're kind of raw dogging life right now.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and I don't know if you've had this feeling where like yesterday I was going to pick up my dropped him off a camp, picking him up a camp. And I'm just sitting there thinking like, so we're just all just going through the motions, right? Like we're still just all showing up and raw dog in life and just sort of like that thing happened that forever fundamentally changed our democracy. And we're all just kind of like, all right, so then what are we going to have for dinner? Like it's the weirdest experiences. It's not like this is the first. We've had many such experiences, right? I mean, even with Dobbs, it was like, I felt that, but this feels even more monumental in some ways. And it's so weird when there's just like all of these huge things happening around the world or in our own, like literally in the country that you and I live in. And it's like, we just, we just go about life like it's normal. I don't know. It's such a weird experience, isn't it?
Taina Brown: Yeah, it is. It feels like the entire country is disassociating and just kind of like, I'll get to that when I have the emotional capacity to. Right now I need to pick up my kid from camp. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp: And knowing that we'll never have the emotional capacity to because we are all so fully like done and spent like it is overwhelming. Well, I guess the first thing I want to talk about was the fear and the anxiety and the like, because I don't know about you, but I mean, when you hear people talking about this and I actually had to stop like some of the I listened to a few political podcasts, I listened to a few, sometimes I listen to the news, whatever. And I had to stop this last couple of days because when you listen to too many, especially commentators, not just people covering it as news, although there as well, but people who are helping to add context to the news and talking about the meaning of this and the impact of what it could mean, it is anxiety provoking. And I wonder how you're dealing with that because I had to stop listening. I had to stop listening and stuff because I could feel it in my body.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I'm not dealing with it. I'm disassociating. I'm disassociating. No, because it is. It's really fucking scary. Just thinking about like, I haven't even I mean, I stopped regularly watching news stuff and like engaging with like new stuff, especially political news like years ago, but because it was it was so anxiety inducing. But, you know, I
Becky Mollenkamp: There you go, you're disassociating too.
Taina Brown: I've seen where people have posted little snippets of Justice Sotomayor's dissent, where she gives specific examples of what actions that any future president could take that would be considered immune, as long as it's an official act. And so it's really freaking scary because it's like I mean, we've seen our rights being slowly stripped away from us, but this is, and I'm sure this is gonna sound totally cliche, and I'm sure people have said this about other things, but this kind of feels like a really big tipping point. And I'm sure people have said that about Roe versus Wade, and I'm sure people said it about the Chevron ruling, right? And so, part of me is just like, how many fucking tipping points, do we need to get to before? Like there's enough unrest or enough just challenge to what's happening. And so, like, France isn't perfect, but, like, the people will dump shit on your doorstep if they don't like the policies and the laws that you are, like, you know, that you're, you know, contributing to or writing up for the country. And so, like, but here it's like we march in the streets for peaceful protests and, like, undercover cops show up to start violent acts and other cops show up in riot gear when it's supposed to be a peaceful march and all of those things and do so much violence. So it's just like, what are we to do? It feels like there isn't much to do.
Becky Mollenkamp: No, it's so tough because I feel all of the anxiety around it. And then I'm like, OK, well, I can do it, you know, like dissociate or not even like just sort of ignore it. And there's a part of me. And I don't know if you feel the same way where I have this like the angel and devil on my shoulder in a way where I'm like part of me thinks that's what I need to do for my mental health. Right. I need to just not know about these things in a way like hear it. Know it sucks. But that's kind of it. But then there's this other part of me that's going, but that's what people do in also have done historically in all sorts of situations where later they think, how did this happen? And like, I feel like there's this other part of me that's like, I need to be educated. I need to be in the fight. I need to do more than just like sit back and maintain my mental health, because I can maintain my mental health while the world around me falls apart and then wake up one day and be like, what happened to the world around me? And maybe I could have done something to help it.
Taina Brown: Yeah, that's really good. I think finding that, I don't even want to call it balance, but finding a way to redirect that energy is going to be so important. Interestingly enough, I'm writing to my email list about the elements of adrienne maree brown's “Emergent Strategy.”
I just wrote a small piece about what it means to adapt intentionally, right? Not just to move with the ebbs and flows that are external, because if you just adapt to what's happening externally, like, there's no agency for you there, right? You're still responding to what's happening outside, but when you adapt intentionally, there's opportunity for you to restore some of your agency and your power to yourself. So what does that look like on a day -to -day basis? One of the metaphors that she uses in the book in the grounding section of this chapter is water, the way that water moves. If it encounters a boulder or a rock in the middle of the stream, it doesn't spend its energy trying to remove that obstacle. It redirects its energy around it and comes back to itself. So how do we then apply that metaphor to our daily living? And it's so interesting because I sent that out the day after this ruling, not even thinking about that ruling, really. And just as you were talking now, I was like, OK, it brought me back to that. And I was like, OK, how do we then, if we're talking about this now together, how do we redirect our energies within ourselves and within our communities to just like stay focused on I don't even know what but now I'm just kind of rambling.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right. That's just it. Like, what's the what? Well, no, because what's funny, you mentioned water, because as you were talking before you got to the rock and all of that metaphor, which I love, I was going to the frog in a pot. And I feel like that's sort of how I feel like we've been. And it's not like we haven't even noticed the water getting warm. And I think there have been many of us who've been calling out saying, hey, guys, they're going to turn this water is going to get to boiling. Like, do you do you see how it's getting warmer? Like, it's going to get to boiling. And here we are where I'm starting to feel the water. Like I'm feeling those, the bubbles coming up now. Like it's starting to boil and we've been sitting in it all this time. And it's like, how do you balance that? Where it's like you, you see it, but then also you're one frog in a giant pot of water with a whole lot of other frogs that don't seem to care about the water. I don't know. It's just so tough. It's like, how do you warn everyone? Or like, what's the, that agency piece? What, I guess it's just like, what do we do? Because I hear so many people talking about moving. I've talked about moving. Like, how do I get the hell out of this country? Right? Where do I go? What do I do? But then I also see people sharing, rightfully so, what a ridiculous amount of privilege to be talking that way. Right? Not everyone can do that. So then what? We just leave behind those who can't? Do we just say, well, too bad for you, but I have privilege, so I'm going to use it. That feels horrible. But then staying, I'm like, and then what's the fight? Vote. Great, I'll vote. What else? Like voting, what's that doing? Because the changes that are happening, I can't vote on Supreme Court. I can vote on the president who does that, but that's a lifetime appointment. The people that he's put in are so young. We're not talking about being able to change the Supreme Court anytime soon. I don't expect you to have the answers, Taina. I don't think any of us do, but that's the thing I'm wrestling with is like these feelings of helplessness.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah. I will be completely transparent. I've thought about moving several times and financially we're just we're not at that place. But also sometimes moving feels like stepping into the space where all these billionaires are trying to like colonize Mars, right? And they're trying to leave behind all the ugly dirty stuff. And so and I think also beyond that, like there's this reach of American Western imperialism that reaches far beyond the borders of the country. So even if you move, like, where are you going to go? Where it's not going to be something similar or something on the path to being similar to where we are right now in this country. So then what's the adequate response? What's the appropriate action to take? And I think that there's no one answer for everyone. I think you really just have to contend with like what do you need and what your community needs and those are not easy answers to figure out. Like I haven't figured that out. Like I'm still figuring that out. And it's hard to have the energy to figure that out when you're just so fucking tired of being gaslit by your country.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know I saw somebody who shared on Threads, like, hey, all of you talking about moving, it's really giving colonizer energy. And it did make me stop and think, and it is, right? Like, it's exactly what you're saying that's just like, well, this sucks here. Where else can I go and take over? And I don't want to be that either. And then also you're like, how do you stay and fight? And it's when it just keeps getting scarier and scarier. One other thing I wanted to say too about privilege, I feel like that feels like, my role needs to be as the person who's carrying the white privilege in this conversation or any of our conversations to try and shine the light on privilege whenever I can at least see it. And I also had, I saw somebody on threads posting something about all of you who are like, well, we had a good run at democracy. Like it was a great 200 and something years, right? That also feels very privileged of like, it hasn't been a great 200 and something years for everybody. Hey, we should probably acknowledge that as well. And so I just want to bring that into the conversation to say like, while we white people speaking from my perspective are like, my God, this is like the end of democracy as we've known it. And I feel that the day democracy died feels like July 1st now. Like I feel like they'll write a bye bye American democracy song about it or whatever. But also it feels really important as we're having those conversations as white people to recognize and always sort of check that piece of the privilege of like, yeah, it hasn't been a great 200 and something years for everyone. It's been not a great two hundreds of years. And yes, what's happening is awful. But then there's that piece of me that thinks, and I think you've talked about this. I don't remember here or outside of here. We've talked about this. That also maybe that boiling water is the thing that we need for us to jump the fuck out of the pot. Like maybe this is what this is the inevitable place that we go when we've built a country on the backs of humans and by stealing the land from other humans. Like everything about this country, its formation and history is so fucking wrong that it's like, is this the ultimate reckoning that we all have to kind of deal with? And that scares me because I don't want to talk civil war or anything like that. But like there, it does feel like we're
Becky Mollenkamp: Coming to this place of a bit of like, at a more rapid clip each year, like it just feels like it's accelerating, accelerating to this place of a real reckoning as a nation about what kind of nation do we want to be. That's scary. But also inside of that, there could be some hope. Like if you think back to the Civil War times, and again, fully recognizing my privilege inside of that. But I mean, it was a time of another reckoning of people having to say what kind of nation do we want to be? Do we want to be a nation that is like the South? Do we want to be a nation like the North? And clearly, even though we said we wanted to choose not to be a nation without slavery, we didn't do it well. But point being, there was another time of a real reckoning and having to say, what is this country fundamentally about? And I feel like we're hitting that place again. And that's scary, but also has some hope.
Taina Brown: I think that is, that's definitely something to consider. And I have said that before, like, if the whole thing just needs to collapse, like, let it collapse. And so, and I want anyone listening to understand that when I say that, I don't just say that as a black person, I say that as a queer, disabled, fat-bodied, non-white woman, right, who is, you know, has many hardships that I'm dealing with, right? I didn't grow up with wealth. I didn't grow up with a thin body. I didn't grow up with any kind of like what most people would call privilege, right? And so being able to like do things like go to college and, you know, co-host this podcast with you, like I consider those things privileges, right? But, but, and so when I say if it needs to just like collapse, let it collapse, I say that with an enormous amount of fear and trepidation for what that will actually look like. but I also say that with I wouldn't say an enormous amount of hope. I'm not quite there yet. But with some hope for the networks of community that are being built up or have been built up over the past decades or centuries among people who look and think and have life experiences similar to mine. And so when I think about where this country is headed, it feels like the waking up is happening to mostly white people right now. And I feel like non -white people or disabled people or queer people have kind of known this for a while. And again, and this isn't the Oppression Olympics. It's not about who's been more oppressed and who's known it longer or anything like that. But there is the truth, the bottom line, that having privilege shields you from being able to recognize oppression when it happens. And the more privilege that you have, the harder it is to see that because you don't personally experience it. And so as someone who has multiple identities that have experienced depression growing up, it's always been clear to me that there's something very wrong with how this country functions and how it treats its people. And so when I see people freaking out, there's, they're like, and rightly so, people should be freaking out. Again, not saying that people shouldn't be freaking out, but there is like the part of me that's like, well, what did you expect? Like, what did you think was gonna happen, right? When in 2016, I forgot what the numbers were, but of...
Becky Mollenkamp: 53 or 54 % of white women. I think it's 54. It's either 53 or 54. But yeah, exactly. And I think we as white women, it's really easy to say, well, I'm part of the 47 or the 46 or whatever percentage it is that didn't. And I am very happily to say that I would never and did not vote for Trump. But that doesn't shield me from the fact that the same privilege that allowed those women to vote for Trump protects me.
Taina Brown: Yeah, voted for Trump. Like, what did you think? What did you think was going to happen?
Becky Mollenkamp: And I think it's important to know that and acknowledge that and to not, because I think it's just so easy and I've been here and I can still feel it in my bones because it is the conditioning I have to feel that immediate tension of defensiveness, of needing to say, but I'm not them and I'm different and to separate yourself from the privilege that still shields you. And it's really important to not do that to not say they, them, but we. Like as white, I have to say as white women, we caused this, right? White people caused this and white women even more specifically. And people will often say, yeah, but what about the much higher percentage of white men that voted? Yeah, but they sit at the very top of that pyramid of privilege. And of course they did, right? But white women hold the unique positionality of having a marginalization of being women. And still being able to, that 54 % showcases exactly how we fall back on the privilege that we do have, the proximity to our positionality there to be able to say, well, yes, I'm a woman and there is that oppression, not getting in the Oppression Olympics, but there is truth to the fact that being a white woman does not even come close to winning the Oppression Olympics. Right? Like if we were gonna have them, we don't win, we're coming in last place. And we often want to think that we are at the head of that race. Like, there's this foot race in the Oppression Olympics. I'm right up there because I'm a woman. But if you are white, and even if you are, like, I'm queer, but I present, and this is such a stupid way to say, you know, to talk about these things. But no one looks at me and immediately says, you're bisexual, pansexual, because I'm in a heterosexual relationship. And I am not, there's no other way of knowing, right? So like I am straight passing. And so even if I have these other privileges, if they're not, or these other oppressions, if they are not, and you know, I'm fat, but I'm not morbidly fat or what I don't know, large fat, big, whatever, there's so many different words for fat. I'm mid -fat, small fat, I don't know what the words are these days, but so just enough that yes, that can cause some amount of marginalization, but it's certainly not enough to supersede the whiteness that I carry. That trumps all of them. I hate using the word Trump anymore for anything. But that trumps all of them. Anyway, I do think it's so important. And it brings me to a thing that I just thought about because I'm wearing the shirt that says I've got 99 problems and white heteronormative patriarchy is basically all of them. And I went today to go pick up a rug that I bought on Facebook Marketplace as I was driving. I realized, holy shit, this is way out in Trump country. Like it was a part of rural St. Louis County that's, I would imagine voted 85% Trump and I'm wearing this shirt. So I posted about it on Threads saying, I'm kind of proud that I'm wearing the shirt out in this part of the world. And a black woman said, well, that's, that's brave. And I had to quickly check myself and say like, I need to, I should acknowledge also that it's not that brave because my whiteness carries a privilege that supersedes all of the other privileges, right? That will protect me, that's going to keep me safe. I can show up in those communities and would I potentially be heckled, laughed at, whatever, perhaps. But am I likely to face harm? No. Now, if I were a black woman wearing the shirt, if I were more overtly queer in my presentation, if I were very clearly large fat, if I were you know, walking with a cane or in a wheelchair, like all of those things would change it. So anyway, this was very long winded to say that it is so important for us to acknowledge these privileges as we sit here as white people talking about these issues of like, my God, everybody, the sky is falling. Can you believe it? Because like you said, there are so many people who are like, bitch, the sky's been falling for since this country started.
Taina Brown: Yeah, like what sky? There isn't any left. So I think it's also important to note, you know, that like you mentioned, you know, you're part of like the 47 % who did not vote for Trump, which I genuinely appreciate. And but also because of the way that our social networks function, usually in this country, even if you and not when I say you, I don't mean specifically I'm talking general you here, even if you are a part of
Becky Mollenkamp: Hey, I can't be telling people not to be defensive if I'm gonna get defensive. So do not do that thing where you feel like you have to protect me in this conversation.
Taina Brown: I'm just clarifying where I'm going with this, but even if you are part of the 47%, so this is for you, Becky, and for anyone listening who did not vote for Trump in 2016, you probably know more than one white woman who's part of the 53 % who did. She's either in your PTA,
Becky Mollenkamp: My family.
Taina Brown: or in your family, in your church, in your friend group, right? And so, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the point being that like, we all know people who don't exactly align with what we consider progress and what we consider equity in this country.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, not my friend group, but in my family. I can say for myself at least not to get too defensive again, but I have done a lot of work to call those folks out of my life, but family, you know, is family.
Taina Brown: And so voting, listen, I am of the mind that the government's not going to save us. And so when it comes to elections, state and local elections for me matter more than presidential elections, because those are the people who are really in a position, or those are the people who are in a position to really hear you, right, if you need to go that route. But outside of that, change has to happen within our circles, within our social circles, right? And that includes friends, that includes family, that includes colleagues and coworkers and neighbors and moms in the play date groups, like it includes, you know, people that you go to networking events with, you know, and if, if we're so focused on, if we spend so much energy on just like politicians who at the end of the day, most politicians are bought like honestly, like by funders, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: Certainly at the federal level.
Taina Brown: Right, right. All the politicians that AIPAC funded that so far this election cycle have won their races because they've put so much money behind their campaigns. Which we know that's going to turn into favors later, especially now since the Supreme Court said that politicians can be bribed. To expect change in a system that has been corrupt from the start. I think it's a bit naive. I think the change has to happen within our spheres of, for real spheres of influence, like our social circles and our mutual networks. And that's the only way that we're gonna get what we need to survive this and to make it through. Again, like I saw someone post again on Instagram. Instagram has been popping off. All social media has been popping off this week, but you know, and they brought up the perspective that like anyone working on the Biden campaign right now is really working on the Trump campaign and they should be treated as such because why would you encourage someone of his limited capacity to continue running when obviously is not the best fit, but also like he's losing in all the swing states right now. So like his according to like polls and stuff and so to say, yeah, go for it. Like you got this. We're gonna win. You're just like, that's a willful ignorance at this point. And so I'm just like, yeah, that tracks. That tracks. That seems like a very subversive way to get the opposite done of what you say you are trying to do.
Taina Brown: I can't hear you.
Becky Mollenkamp: Sorry, I muted myself. And I'm just going to leave this thing because I'm not editing it out. This is what I do. Trump feels like a notable exception to what I'm about to say. But historically, the difference between the two parties, at least and most especially, I think, since the rise of Reaganomics and neoliberalism, is minimal at best. Because of exactly what you said, they're both so bought and sold by corporations, and…
Taina Brown: 100%.
Becky Mollenkamp: …you know, oil and all of those corporate interests that ultimately there's very little difference in what they actually accomplish. I do believe that some of them may actually have some fundamentally seismic differences in like their true personal beliefs, but in what they will accomplish, the two parties have been, there's almost never difference between them. I think Trump's different because he doesn't actually care about politics. He doesn't care about government. He doesn't care about America. He only cares about himself. And that is, I think, fundamentally a bit different. But for the bulk of history, it's been the same. So voting has not mattered. And so I can understand people who are like, why am I? That's my protest is I'm not going to vote for either of these men. And I get it. I do. I am going. I have come to the place of saying, I'm going to vote for Biden. But I do so reluctantly, I do it and I have said as a lesser of two evils. And I've had so many of the vote blue, no matter what people call me out and be like, no, only one is really evil or whatever. But the truth is, neither of them are going to do. The only reason I actually think it matters in this case is because I do believe Trump is fundamentally different. But if it were any other Republican, I think I would be more much more prone to saying I'll protest and not vote because they're really no different. And that brings me to a question that we actually got that I feel like before when I saw the question, I'm like, when will we ever fit this in? But it feels so perfect actually to what we're talking about right now, which is one of the questions that we got. And by the way, if you listen and you want to send us a question, it's messyliberation at gmail .com. Please send us an email with a question. We would love to answer it. This question is, how do we get a woman into the oval? And it feels so perfect to what we're talking about because my immediate thought is who the fuck cares? Because ultimately any woman that we could get into the Oval Office is going to be no different than any of these men or any other politician. So it's my immediate feeling about it is like all of the worry about like, can we get Kamala elected? Can we get whoever elected? Like, you know, Elizabeth Warren would probably be different slightly. She's the only woman I can think of right now who would have like any remote shot at the actual office, who I think is slightly different because she is almost to Bernie levels in her progressiveness. But for the most part, like anyone that even would have a remote shot is gonna be no different than any of the people that are there anyway. So that's my first thought. But when you hear that question, how do we get a woman to the Oval? What comes up for you?
Taina Brown: Why would I do that to a woman?
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that too.
Taina Brown: Why? Like, I've talked about this with my wife with some of the local elections here in Maryland, and it's like, there's a black woman who's running for a Senate seat, and a part of me is like, I want her to win, but also I don't because I don't know if it's good for her. And not saying that like, I know what's good for everyone, right? But like, I just feel like it's such a toxic place to be. Why would I want that for another person who has at one point or another experienced a toxic workplace?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and you know, we, there's a whole thing about like black women will save us. And it's like, but black women shouldn't have to save us. And black women have been doing all this work and like, no, we can't rely on that. And then also I look and think any, like any politician I could think of is not gonna be substantially different. It would have to be like a radical black woman to actually for it to me, for it to matter beyond tokenism sort of representation. Like we can throw, we get a woman elected. If any of the women that would have a chance at getting elected, great, we've had a woman in office, but was it substantially different? I mean, and I voted for, you campaigned for, loved Barack Obama. And let's be honest, he was a moderate at best, certainly not a progressive. And so yes, we've had a black president, but did it make substantial changes for the Black experience in America?
Taina Brown: No. No.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I feel like it'd be the same thing for a woman. We get a woman in the office, white, black, whoever. Do we actually believe it would make any substantial difference, meaningful difference for what it means to be a woman in America? I don't.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, this is why like, when people are like, we need, you know, representation at like all levels, like, okay, that's a good place to start. But like, let's not stop there. Because like, you can have someone who represents you based on your identity in a position of power, and they will still put their foot on your neck.
Becky Mollenkamp: 100%. I mean, I would rather have Beto O 'Rourke represent me than Marjorie Taylor Greene. Do I share more marginalized identities with Marjorie Taylor Greene? Yeah. Does Beto O 'Rourke have more privilege than me? Yeah. But clearly, one person is going to be a better representation. And that was just a random example pulled out of thin air. Bernie Sanders, whatever. I mean, sadly, there's so few progressive politicians in this country that I can't come up with a lot of examples.
Taina Brown: Fuck yes.
Becky Mollenkamp: Point being what you're saying, like, it's not just about do we share some identity? That's why like, I think this question of how do we get a woman the off Oval Office, like I fully appreciate it, no slight on whoever asked it, because there was definitely a time in my life where I felt that too. But now I'm like, I'm far less about what is the identity of the person in the office? And what are the actual beliefs and what not even just beliefs, but the proven the actions that they will take, right? Bernie Sanders has proven time and again, that he will walk his talk. AOC is starting to be that kind of person. Cori Bush, who I'm very proud to say represents me and my district, is amazing, right? And she is like that. But there are only so many progressive politicians that are actually not just saying, I believe all of these things, but then actually voting that way, actually fighting for it when it gets tough saying, no, I will show up this way. And I said AOC, but I know she's had some issues. Like they've all had some issues. So it's tough.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think the bottom line is like you can't be progressive or leftist if you're in politics. No, you can't. Like you have to pick a side and that side has to be closer to the center than you would really want it to be because that's just the way the system is set up. Like there's no way to put yourself into the lion's den without becoming a lion.
Becky Mollenkamp: No, not in a two -party system. I love that, which goes back to, Taina, I think exactly this whole thing. What does it take to get a woman in the office? Isn't the right question. What does it take to get a progressive woman who would actually make meaningful change that helps the lives of those with marginalized identities in this country? It would take systemic change. It would take completely changing the system in which we live, which ultimately I think is like almost every conversation we're having is we have to liberate ourselves from these systems. The systems as they exist are not going to change, nothing can change inside of the system. The system is built to protect itself, to preserve itself, and to not allow any of that meaningful change to happen. So that's where the liberation piece of what we talk about comes in is like, we have to liberate ourselves from the systems. And that goes back to this conversation. And actually, again, while it's like not the kind of hope I would like, it is at least the glimmer of hope I need, which is that ultimately what's happening right now, it is sort of we are at a more rapid clip. I think moving towards a reckoning about the systems in this country, about how flawed, fucked up, fundamentally unworkable these systems are, and that the only way to save us is a massive change of what this country looks like, the systems that govern this country. And that is terrifying. But also it's, what a, I know, I love the sound of it.
Taina Brown: It's my Ring camera.
Becky Mollenkamp: But also I think that it's hopeful in that like, we've known that none of these other things were gonna ever change anything. It's putting Band-aids on like a dam that's about to break through.
Taina Brown: On a gunshot wound.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, exactly. And like the blood is just gushing out all around it, but somehow like each little band -aid we think, well, it's something, but is it? No, it's really not. We need stitches. And until we get stitches, like this shit's not gonna be fixed. We're just bleeding out. And I think we need big things like this for us to get to the place for enough people to start to say these Band-aids of like electing this person or the lesser of two evils or, you know, doing this little thing, passing this small little thing in my whatever. None of that will fundamentally change these fucked up systems. And we have to change this.
Taina Brown: Yeah, and if that feels really big, if you're listening and that feels like a really big ask and a really big thing that feels overwhelming and feels impossible in your lifetime, one, that's probably because it is. But also, like, this is an opportunity to build your own systems outside of the systems that we are forced to function in. This is your opportunity to model what it could potentially look like to live inside of a community that really cares for itself. And I think that's where the hope comes in for me. And while the fear definitely outweighs the hope right now, I think the creative exercise of building community in a way that like really sustains us through these changes that are erroneous at best and malicious and insidious at worst. Being able to build those systems in small ways, whether it's just your friend group or if you have a group of family, if you're a family constantly vacations with another family or a group of families that you're always together build a sense, a system of mutual care in those networks and take care of each other through that. And then there's a sense of mutuality that'll happen there. And then you have to rely less on the systems that we're forced to contend with every day if we're taking care of ourselves. But that only happens if we can let go of one ego, toxic individualism. this idea that like one way is the best way, right? We have to create space for people to exist in those systems outside of the way that we want to exist in those systems and that takes work.
Becky Mollenkamp: But you know, when I was sitting alone with this, I felt helpless and scared. And as soon as I have conversations, a conversation with you, I've had a few other conversations, every time I'm in that, being in community with people who believe in the same systems change that I do and who feel that same sort of compassion and care for each other, like that it doesn't change what's going on around me, but what it does change is how I'm feeling inside. And so I love what you're saying, because I think it's so important that it's the being alone in it and facing that big scary world by yourself. But as soon as we can find communities of compassion and care and shared beliefs and values, that really does fundamentally help how you feel and how you exist inside of the system. So I think that's so important in finding those spaces or creating them if you can't find them. Yeah. And you're going to go ahead.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, it helps you. I was gonna say, it's like when that water moves around the boulder and it comes back to itself. These conversations, these spaces, they bring you back to yourself, they ground you.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and I was just that's perfect because I was going to say and you win the award, I think, for mentioning Emergent Strategy the most times in a podcast already. And we've only we've only released a couple, but we've only recorded like a few more than what we've released. And so you are I hope Adrienne Marie Brown somehow listens and maybe eventually we could talk to her on the show. How cool would that be? So let's just manifest it. We're going to like put that energy out and hope that someone who listens knows her and says, wow, this Taina, she talks about you and your book all the time. You should be on their show.
Taina Brown: That'd be great. I might just invite her. I might just invite her. We talk about you all the time. Yeah, please come on our show.
Becky Mollenkamp: Just send a, send an email. Send the email. Well, thank you for being flexible, being that water around the rock and saying we were gonna talk about something else, but let's talk about this thing because I think it's on the minds of everyone unless you live under that rock. You are thinking about it. So thanks for the conversation. It helped me.
Taina Brown: Thank you. Yeah, this was, it was nourishing. So I'm glad that we did this.