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Journalist Markham Hislop interviews leading energy experts from around the world about the energy transition and climate change.
Welcome to episode 377 of the Energy Talks podcast. I'm energy journalist, Markham Hislop. This is a live event, which means we'll have a 30 minute interview followed by a question and answer session with our audience. Today, I'll be talking to Michelle Demers, CEO of US firm Boundless Impact Research and Analysis, about life cycle assessment. We have a number of engineers in the energy circle, and they frequently mentioned life cycle assessment, which enables investors to better understand the potential impact of new technologies.
Markham:I thought it was time to interview a guest who can explain what life cycle assessment is for us nonengineers and why it matters. So welcome to Energy Talks, Michelle.
Michele:Thanks so much for having me.
Markham:Well, I'm really, interested in this because I, you know, I get my inner nerd, kind of gets excited at this kind of stuff. And I think the the best place to start is, you know, just what is life cycle assessment?
Michele:Sure. So life cycle assessment is the comprehensive analysis of a product's environmental performance from its, inception where the materials are sourced and those early supply chains through the product manufacturing and use and through the grave. They call it cradle to grave.
Markham:Okay. And I understand that you do technoeconomic analysis along with the, LCA. We're gonna we're gonna shorten it. We got an an acronym.
Michele:Yep. It's known as LCA. Yeah.
Markham:Right. So we'll get into a a discussion of LCA, but I've I've seen technoeconomic analysis any number of times in in my reporting, but maybe you could tell us what that's about.
Michele:Sure. So sometimes we do it, sometimes we don't. We're doing a number of assessments right now with the Department of Energy, and those are more strict LCAs. But we do, our kind of unique brand of baseline LCA, which we have done quite a few of for the DOE as well, integrate technoeconomic analysis into them. Technoeconomic analysis is essentially looking at the cost competitiveness of a product and comparing it to market dynamics and competitors in its same market, and, analyzes how quickly a company can commercialize and be competitive within its industry.
Markham:Which sectors do you work in? I mean, Alberta most of our folks, today are from Alberta, and which is dominated by oil and gas, and it has a very large power sector. As a consequence, there's lots of petrochemical plants and refineries and so on. Or are do you focus on the clean tech side of things?
Michele:So we have done some work on adaptation technologies in the oil and gas sector. So we work on both climate change mitigation and adaptation. So we mostly work in clean tech, but we consider those clean tech, you know, some of these technologies that are being integrated into the operations. And I think we're gonna have if we're gonna have a successful clean tech transition, we are gonna use some legacy infrastructure, in in smart ways. So, but we generally work in the energy sector, and, yes, we do generally work more in the renewable energy sector or in the energy storage sector that is very important and complementary to the energy renewable energy sector.
Michele:And we work in transportation. A lot of the assess projects we do there are on low carbon fuels, for example, or on innovative technologies in mobility. We also electrification of vehicles. And then we work across a number of other verticals like advanced materials and chemicals. Yes.
Michele:That's a whole that sector is being reengineered, for climate change mitigation and adaptation purposes as well as as ag and food sectors, circular economy, carbon removal, water. I don't know if I forgot any, but that covers a lot of it.
Markham:I have a particular hobby horse, which is advanced materials. And the reason for that is because the work that's been done by the, provincial agency, Alberta Innovates. And in 2016, they undertook a program called bit bitumen beyond combustion, where they would come up with processes to turn bitumen into carbon fiber precursor as well as other materials like asphalt binder and activated carbon and so on. And they're coming they're getting very close, to a commercial, pilot project or demonstration project. And so I'm I'm curious.
Markham:I don't know if you're know about that project, but I've I've I interviewed one of their scientists, doctor Paolo Bombin, who said we're now in not only an energy transition, we're in a materials transition. Absolutely. Can you can you maybe just talk about that for a bit?
Michele:Right. Well, yes. Because, I mean, it's our entire physical world that needs to be reengineered to adjust to the challenges of climate change. And it's not just the oil and gas and traditional fossil fuel industries, but the chemicals industry, the water industry, you know, our our, like I said, our whole physical world that really needs to change. And the way it's not just how we consume power, but how we consume food and how we consume materials and produce materials and produce food.
Michele:So, it's gonna be just as important. And there's some really cool, technologies that are kind of that carbon to value, waste to value, methane to value, various, chemicals and materials that, are gonna be really critical to that whole materials transition.
Markham:Maybe get I'll get you to address another, sort of pet theory of mind, which is that when we talk about the energy transition, we're very often talking about primarily about core clean tech. You know, wind and solar and batteries and EVs and home heat pumps, maybe electrolysis. But, really, what this is is a technological revolution. And we are fond of saying at Energy Media that this energy transition, unlike every energy transition that came before it, this one is technology led, not commodity led. And so there are all kinds of related enabling technologies, you know, like AI and materials and computers
Michele:and and
Markham:battery chemistries and
Michele:Right.
Markham:Maybe your take on that, please.
Michele:Well, I completely agree with that. The technology technology and science and innovation, and I would I would hesitate to say biotechnology, I believe, is really driving, a lot of this innovation even more than anything. It's been we're I feel like we're kind of moving into the age of biology, although there's some pretty compelling arguments around nuclear fission. So physics ain't so bad either. But, you know, it is really a critical a critical time where all hands have to be on deck.
Michele:And the technology yes. Absolutely. The technology sectors and r and d and innovation is driving this more than I would say commodities. And like you said, it's almost like not finance driven the way, other industries have been. And and I don't think that's unusual.
Michele:You know, I think you could you could make parallels with the clean tech industry to like maybe the big pharma industry, some of the industries in that have created drugs, like 50, 60 years ago, were really nascent 50, 60 years ago, but they're now $1,000,000,000 industries. I think you're gonna see industries that we've barely even heard of that are tiny right now that are gonna be $1,000,000,000 industries in 50 years.
Markham:Now you're based in the US, and you work with a lot of US companies. And my take on what's happened, you know, beginning in 2020, 2021, and, US Secretary of Commerce, Gina Raimondo, said this explicitly in a in a number of speeches. She said, we woke up to the threat of China. We woke up to the fact that we are so dependent on Chinese manufacturing and supply chains. And given the the geopolitical tension with China, that's unacceptable.
Markham:So we're going to build our own clean tech industry or manufacturing. We're gonna build battery plants. We're gonna build EVs. We're gonna build solar panel manufacturing plants. And it looks looking over the border from Canada, it looks like there is just this enormous manufacturing and investment boom, and I just I thought I would ask you what your opinion of that.
Michele:Well, it's absolutely necessary. You know, there's, first of all, there's not enough lithium in the all the lithium mines that China does have a monopoly on in South America. There's not enough lithium to power all the electric vehicles that we're gonna need. And there's really cool innovative ways of producing lithium as well as producing producing non lithium batteries that are gonna emerge. And it also makes absolutely no sense that battery manufacturers have to, like, fly their materials over to China because of China's kind of supply chain restrictive, practices.
Michele:It's really emissions into wasting waste so many emissions, the the way that the system currently works. And so building those batteries here just makes, you know, nearby wherever they're gonna be deployed is where it's gonna make sense. And it just makes not only economic sense, it makes environmental sense. It makes sense in terms of GDP and job creation. And, and from a geopolitical point of view, it's super obvious as well.
Markham:Now, Michelle, we we talked about what, l, life cycle assessment is. We've talked about the bigger energy transition implications and, you know, changes that are going on in technology and and the economy, both globally and in in North America. Where does life cycle assessment fit into all of that?
Michele:Sure. So, you know, you see companies, large the large companies, I think I'm trying to figure out the number. I have to get back to you on this, but it's pretty it's it's I'm mad that I can't remember it, but it's a very few number of companies and supply chains that are responsible for a giant amount of the emissions in the world. And it's really important to understand. It's like a b companies or something.
Michele:But, but it's really important to understand those companies are creating all these net zero goals that they're obviously promising to their investors that they're gonna meet, but they have no idea how they're gonna meet them. Let's take an airline for for instance. Airlines are saying they're gonna use sustainable jet fuel. Right now, the sustainable jet fuel industry is very much in an arms race in development to to figure out there's, like, 3 or 4 kind of leading contenders that are, that are gonna win the race, if you will, and provide a lot of that or some of that sustainable aviation fuel. But you don't you know, they really don't know, and they're looking to these clean tech industries.
Michele:And they're looking for, to to to make sure if they're making an investment into a technology and integrating it into their into their value chain or their supply chain, and you're going to really need reliable data in order to spend the kind of money they're going to spend. And lifecycle assessment is the most reliable. It is the internationally standardized. It was internationally standardized maybe 50 years ago, and it is the most reliable, which is why it's used fairly a bit ubiquitously now to understand how a product competes and to validate the performance that a product states. You know, you have a lot of these new carbon accounting platforms that are for compliance purposes, but they are based on estimations, cost based estimations.
Michele:It's not the same thing as having an engineer actually gather data through a proper process, have external industry experts review that data, which is what we do when we do a lifecycle assessment, and and go through several steps that we go through to validate the data and to compare it to industry benchmarks that we've researched from on other products in its same category. So there's just a number of steps we take, and it really creates reliable results. And that's why people are using life cycle assessment and why it's been internationally standardized. So it's why the Department of Energy has given us the number of vouchers we've had, I think, 20, almost 30 this year from the Department of Energy, and we're just one engineering firm alone that has been doing this for the DOE to help do these life cycle assessments for emerging clean tech products so that those companies can then go and get traction faster. They can raise money, and they can get, differentiate their products and get customers and get faster commercial traction.
Markham:Michelle, can you take one of your customers without naming the company and and use that as a case study to walk us through what an LCA assess what a life cycle assessment looks like?
Michele:Sure. So we assessed a, I'll just I'll just pull up the first one that comes to mind, which is a grid scale storage battery. It was a zinc battery, and it was a battery that is used for data, storage data center storage, and, it's a cleaner the materials are cleaner and safer than materials in a lot of traditional lithium ion and lead acid batteries. And we, gather data from that company. Company engages us, and we gather data from them.
Michele:We go out and do benchmarks on traditional batteries out there being used in data storage centers, as well as, a couple of contemporary competing technologies. And, and we will analyze we'll pick 7 or 8 metrics within for the energy storage industry. So in addition to GHG footprint, we'll look at water footprint. We'll look at volatile organic compounds. We'll look at, which are the sort of toxic chemicals used in the manufacturing process.
Michele:We'll look at carbon payback time. We'll look at levelized cost of electricity. That's one of our TA metrics. We'll look at, carbon return on investment, which is a hybrid environmental financial metric. And we'll analyze how competitive that technology is, and how well it differentiates in terms of improvements in environmental performance, as well as improve, you know, how how sort of well it'll complete compete from a cost perspective.
Michele:And then we put it in a report, and the company will take that report. It uses it, shows it to investors, it shows it to potential customers, it gets grants from governments for its work. And it also companies are also using our LCAs to make changes in their products as well as changes in their operation. So there's really a lot of great uses for it.
Markham:One of the things that's, strikes me about the Inflation Reduction Act is, and this is I'm using Department of Energy. When you say d o DOE, that's what you mean, Department of Energy. And the DOE, publishes figures regularly about how much they spent on a in a particular sector like batteries, for instance. And the one I'm thinking of it was like 52 52,000,000,000? And they crowded in like 800,000,000,000 of of private capital.
Markham:And I think these are probably proposed, plants, because they haven't, obviously, haven't begun constructing that many plants. But nevertheless, the point is that x amount of of government subsidy crowds in private capital, does having a life cycle assessment done make it easier for private investors to have the confidence that that it that this technology has been derisked enough for them to invest it.
Michele:Oh, they're using they're for everyone in those, Department of Energy loan program office, investments that their loans that they're giving, you know, these projects for these batteries that are being that are then incentivizing the private investments. They're using LCAs. I talked to Ken Hill from the from the DOE last week about it, that they primarily work with the in this case, in the case of the DOE loan program office, they work with the National Energy Technology Laboratory, which is one of the national labs that does a lot of the LCAs for those. So, yes, they use an l there's like especially when you get over a certain threshold of investment, LCA is usually required now.
Markham:Okay. Now you I know you do some work with Canadian companies, and I don't know, how familiar what you are with the Canadian landscape, but I'm I'm curious to know if there's a difference between how Canadian industries or companies utilize level sorry, The LCA and what how the Americans are using it?
Michele:I can't really speak to that. I know that we've done assessments of a few different Canadian companies, so I know that they're finding it useful as well. And I know that we did, we're talking to I remember one of the accelerators, maybe Creative Destruction Labs. Someone in my team is about doing a webinar, because we do a lot of, like, education around LCA too with accelerators and programs like that. And I know, I mean, I think it's not an American thing.
Michele:I think LCA is used in Europe for product environmental footprint. It's used our work is global.
Markham:To what extent is the demand for LCAs driven by ESG reporting, driven by climate policies, driven by, government programs like the DOE. What are the the primary drivers behind, LCA, being undertaken?
Michele:I mean, I kinda think it's done by primarily by investors like the DOE and like, you know, private equity and and and and large companies. It's being used as a risk mitigation tool because you you you really start to see the warts and all when you get an LCA of a company. It's like a, you know, it's a it's a genuine third party objective analysis of their of their product. And and I don't you know, it's it's conflated sometimes with ESG or can you know, included. But, you know, ESG reporting covers, like, social and governance factors that life cycle assessment doesn't generally look at.
Michele:But it's sometimes an LCA is included in an ESG report.
Markham:Are are we at the beginning, the middle, or the end of this trend, towards LCAs? Are we gonna is there a potential for a lot of growth, for I
Michele:would say the beginning. The it's it's I would say the beginning because, I see it being used, you know, in private equity more and more and when when check sizes are bigger, like I said. But I don't think because LCA is fairly complex, an ISO compliant LCA can be up between 60 to a 100 pages. And we we have this baseline LCA that we've developed that is a bit simpler for earlier stage companies at, like, series a, b, c. And companies are, you know, are using it.
Michele:And it's fit you know, so our baseline LCA report is 15 to 6 16 pages long. And it's, it's it is simpler, and it's all it's really it's really, a good idea for companies at that stage because their products might change considerably, and they might not want to invest in a full ISO compliant LCA yet. But you're definitely seeing life cycle assessment being used earlier and earlier, but the venture community hasn't fully embraced it yet, and I'm waiting for that. I don't think that kind of, saturation has happened because I don't I don't and, you know, venture capital is is quite risky, and I think it would be a really smart thing for them to use it because it is a risk, a terrific risk mitigation tool.
Markham:I think, Michelle oh, I I had one more question for you. Is LCA related to the idea of a circular economy? Is is it used in that context?
Michele:Yes. Circular economy apps yes. Because, understanding the entire kind of life cycle of a product, there are people that are that are measuring using unfortunately, because LCA is becoming bit more popular and it is a technical process, it can be expensive or more than companies wanna pay or they don't appreciate it. I think once they get one, they really do appreciate it. But so what happens is companies sometimes elect to do them themselves, a self reported LCA, and they'll hire, like, a PhD to do it.
Michele:And sometimes that person has the training, sometimes they don't, and they miss certain important critical things like having an industry expert review the, the results, the data as well as the assumptions behind the calculations. So there's definitely, there's definitely, sort of challenges to applying LCA, and I think the field is still evolving. I'm sorry. Can you ask your question one more time? Because I lost
Markham:my train
Speaker 3:of thought. Right.
Markham:How it might be related to the rise of this of a the idea of a circular economy.
Michele:Right. Yeah. So, I mean, we are moving more into, like, waste to value and using something. It's not only for the full life cycle, but but to use some of the same materials from a product to recreate the product, which is the concept of the of the full circular economy. So life cycle can really show how and when that can be done.
Michele:So absolutely. And we do a lot of assessments in, like I was mentioning, waste to value, methane to value, carbon to value, and waste to fuel, carbon to fuel, methane to fuel, like, just just things being reused. So absolutely.
Markham:A question that came out of the the chat, Michelle, and carbon capture and storage is a big issue in Alberta because the oil sands have asked for subsidies from various levels of government about $50,000,000,000, as part of their Right. Organization, which is the cost of, constructing a full c, CCS network for the industry. And there are 16 and a half $1,000,000,000 for the first phase of the project, and the the Canadian government is it looks like it's going to come to the table and put up, we don't know how much money, but a lot of money into that. And so wondering, if LCA analysis has been done, if you know, or should it be done? Your thoughts.
Michele:So, funny you ask because we, are we won the contract to assess the 20 finalists for the, Xprizes, carbon removal prize. It's backed by the Musk Foundation, and it's the largest carbon it's the largest x prize ever. So we are assessing the 20 finalists. We're doing both LCA and TEA of carbon direct removal technologies across, air capture, ocean sequestration, land, and rocks. And so it's it's funny that you're asking because, we're looking at 20 of the top technologies right now, very closely and in the midst of that analysis.
Michele:And I will tell you, I I'm pretty sure, you know, I'm positive of at least 1, maybe 2 of them are Canadian. And so we're looking very closely at that. And my team is really going deep on how to measure this and how to question the assumptions because it's because it's the largest x prize ever. The purse is a $100,000,000 and the 1st prize winner gets $50,000,000, which is a sizable prize as you can well imagine. So, the stakes are high.
Michele:And, yes, life cycle assessment illuminates a lot of important things. But you need the techno economic analysis too. Because if you can't commercially scale, it doesn't matter how great the technology is, And you need to be able to show that realistic path to commercialization that, that it can it can go right alongside the the the development of the product.
Markham:Now without spilling any of the beans as it were, one of my criticisms of applying CCS to, to the oil sands is that we there are there's plenty of modeling. It's, you know, it's not just the International Energy Agency, it's Rystad, and, and, Bloomberg NEF, and BP, on and on and on, who are calling for peak oil, either in 2030 or before, and then a short plateau, and then a a beginning of the decline. And so that reasonable a reasonable person would look at that and say, well, are the oil sands competitiveness competitive in a demand destruction scenario? And the, just some data I was reading today from Rystad suggests maybe not. And so would a technoeconomic LCA done on CCS for the oil sands consider that issue of are the oil sands competitive a decade from now.
Markham:And if they're not, we we might run a scenario where the CCS gets finished just as they start to fail.
Michele:Right. Yeah. It I mean, it is important to look at the market dynamics, several years out. So how many years out are you are you thinking this is? If I don't mind throwing it back, like, are you 10 years out?
Markham:You mean
Michele:in terms of construction? Construction. Yeah.
Markham:Well, I you know, this is a there's a lot of engineering, and then and there's a lot of work that takes me to this is it takes years to build, it just like this first project. Right. So I think about 5 years. Chris, hang on a second. Hang on a second.
Markham:So my understanding from Pathways Alliance, because I've had conversations with them about this, is is that we're probably well into the 2030s before the final phase of a CCS project would be completed.
Michele:Right. I mean, we are okay.
Speaker 4:Sorry. Chris, did you wanna add something?
Michele:Yep.
Speaker 5:Well, I've got a
Speaker 4:a few things to add, but I'll I'll I'll wait for the right point, I guess. Okay. Yeah. I mean, a big engineering project typically takes at least 5 years, and, quite often, they they they go to 6 or 7. Some places in the world like China, they can do it in 2 or 3.
Speaker 4:But, with the, social license required in Canada, takes a lot more time.
Markham:Gotcha. Okay. Michelle, I'll throw it over to you.
Michele:Yeah. So it's a it's a a really interesting question, and there's a lot there's a lot to unpack there. And I'm trying to figure out how to not take 10 minutes to give you an answer. Let me think. So there's the fact I mean, there's the economic, analysis of the oil market and the price of oil, as well as the carbon markets alongside that, which are going to continue evolving, and which are now set.
Michele:I think Canada has set the price at 100 and 70 or $80 a ton by 2030. And you guys are inexorably moving toward that. And Europe is inexorably moving toward larger, prices for carbon, and California is, as well. So those 3 markets are the stablest of the regulated markets I've seen, but I think they're gonna drive a lot of other activity. So there's that economic kind of factor.
Michele:There's obviously the price of oil, and that factor as well as the price of stranded assets for a lot of oil companies that need to be addressed. That a lot of dirty companies are going to have a lot more, like, financial, legal, regulatory, and other liabilities as we move into a world where carbon is priced and emissions, your emissions footprint, especially, but your environmental footprint holistically is gonna matter to the valuation of your company. And I think we're, you know and obviously, I'm hoping we're moving toward that world faster. I don't think it's gonna be a reality for another, you know, 4 or 5 years, but I think we're heading in that direction. So there's that economic piece.
Michele:From the environmental perspective then and technical perspective, it's a whole other set of questions because and I'm really gonna only unpack this. I'm probably not gonna answer your question because I don't exactly know the answer to your question, but I am gonna just try to analyze, like, how I think about it, which is also the the fact that, you know, there are technologies that, like I was saying, there's infrastructure and the oil sands could arguably be seen as infrastructure. It could be seen as, like, you know, infrastructure that's being used for something better given that CCS could be something that could come from it. And I do think the oil and gas industry is leaning in really heavily on on CCS because they see it as a way of kind of, you know, lengthening their existence and, purpose. So, I I I think it's those adaptation technologies are gonna main are gonna be around.
Michele:You know, it's like natural renewable natural gas is gonna be around and be an important part of the transition. So I would say, oil and gas companies that are really smart about CCS are going to be able to extend their shelf life. I guess that's my sort of ants my my wrapping it up answer.
Markham:Oh, and fair enough. And and for us to have a fulsome discussion of that would take time. We don't have time for that.
Michele:We we need an hour for it. Yeah.
Markham:Yeah. Easily an hour. So let's instead of doing that, let's go to our questions. And before I call on Chris, anybody else who would like to ask a question of Michelle, please go and raise your hand, and, down at the bottom of the Zoom screen, click on reactions. You'll see raise hand.
Markham:Do that as Chris has done, and then, I will call on you. So Chris, you have the mic.
Speaker 4:Sure. So, yeah, like I said, I'm I'm a big fan of LCA in terms of where we need to go in the future and some, I guess, some takeaways, from what I've gained. So I did it as part of a master's program. I started about 5 years ago. Actually, finished about 4 years ago.
Speaker 4:And, 2015, company LanzaTech did, you know, LanzaTech, I think, is an excellent example of how to use the LCA strategically. So that from from my research, basically, they they they looked at different, cellulosic, feedstocks to make, alcohol fuels and basically sort of zeroed in on where the the best economic performance is along with developing their their economic sorry, environmental performance with economic performance. And, I believe, this is this is the kind of thing you see from companies that have a really strong, business process management, very mature in that area, sophisticated. The, the founder of of LanzaTech, I believe the the lady's name, Jennifer Holmgren, came from Honeywell. And Honeywell was one of these companies that trained all their people in 6 Sigma business process management and and was very strong.
Markham:Got a is there a question in here?
Speaker 4:Yes. So basically, what I'm trying to say is that where LCA really makes a lot of money for companies is when you can, tie it to those business process management tools. And one other example that I had from from my studies was that, Doritos had a very strong, business process management system, and then they basically implemented, life cycle tools and got to, like, 0 water use and and, you know, net zero electricity very fast once they start to zero in on things. And the other thing I wanna say about, life cycle, analysis is that the, CRC from the Canadian government has done some good work on hydrogen life cycle, LCAs and has tried to promote that in terms of they did an analysis on, blue hydrogen versus, green hydrogen when that debate was raging.
Markham:Now ask your question.
Speaker 4:Sorry?
Markham:Ask your question.
Speaker 4:Ask the question.
Markham:You haven't asked the question yet?
Speaker 4:Sorry. I I wanted to well, the I just wanted to to bring that information to the table. Which question?
Markham:Well, I I I thought you had a question. That that
Speaker 4:No. I just wanted to share share share the insights I had of, in terms of where LCA works. And, also note that the government has kinda dipped its foot in it from the like, in Canada, it's a little different than the states. We got Ottawa sort of way over on their side of the country and then, the provincial government. And, a lot of times in Canada, provincial governments in Ottawa are at loggerheads.
Speaker 4:So, anyway, it's a interesting thing we'll be going through in the future. But I think you're you're right. It's still in its infancy, especially in Alberta. When I when I looked at how many LCAs were being done in Alberta, there was more done in agriculture than than were done in oil and gas.
Michele:Okay. Hang on a second.
Markham:I'm gonna I'm gonna stop you, Chris. I you're you're gonna give us a lecture and, we wanna get, we wanna get Michelle to answer. So the question I guess is, how to what extent, Michelle, is this driven by government? And is it the federal government that's driving it in the US? Do do the states play a role in this, local governments?
Markham:What what's your take?
Michele:The federal government, definitely. The federal government's putting way more money into LCAs than any than any, state or local government. But I would say, you know, the state and local governments are the customers for a lot of these clean technologies. So that's they're playing an important role. But in terms of LCA, really wealthy states like California, The California Energy Commission is big on LCA.
Michele:NYSERDA in the state where we work is the, energy development authority in New York State. They also are very bullish on LCA. So definitely, Mass CEC, the Mass, Massachusetts Clean Energy Council. So there are some states that, governments, but it's more kind of federal government based, work than anything. But, you know, the National Labs, which are an extension of the federal government, are are really critical to for, advancing this more science based approach as well.
Speaker 6:It's true.
Markham:Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna call on hope you're
Speaker 4:yeah. I guess rephrasing my Hang on
Markham:a second. Hang on a second. Hang on a second.
Speaker 6:Okay.
Markham:You we we've got some other people in line, and I wanna get I wanna get to them. We'll come back to you. Put your hand up, by the way, again. Sheila, you have the mic.
Speaker 3:So I I wondered, hey, who what are who are the critical players here, and what factors are gonna make this a success, like, to make sure you're getting accurate, objective, and, you know, really sound assessments? Is that is there have to be government oversight, or do you have regulations around that? But I can't imagine who actually up here would be doing some of that.
Michele:So in a life cycle assessment is internationally standardized, and so we have industry experts, academic experts. So with that battery assessment I was telling you about, we hired a, battery PhD to review the results of that study and do a 3rd party peer review of our study. So there's kind of this, like, integrity built into the process. And because it's internationally standardized, you don't need government oversight of LCA. There's an integrity there.
Michele:That's what I love about it, is that it's very you know, there's a we use this thing called the EcoInvent, which is an LCA database that's used internationally. So we're using the same, you know, metrics and units of measure for every industry, and we're using the same database. It's just it's a way of standardizing things that, doesn't exist in a lot of these other impact measurement tools.
Markham:Michelle, my understanding of the ISO is that, you know, this covers a lot of areas. I the ISO covers many, many processes and different industries and and what have you. So your customers are used to ISO standards, and that wouldn't that create a I don't know what I'm getting at here, but some kind of a standard. You use a standard, they are familiar with it, then they can assess whether or not you stuck to the standard and the quality of your work without having oversight.
Michele:Oh, yeah. I mean, they, the the we don't have people kind of checking our work because the expert that we've hired does the checking of our work, if that makes sense. And at Boundless, we have a scientific advisory council of LCA experts that are kind of guiding the refinement the constant refinement of our methodology. So we're sticking to the latest scientific methods. We make sure we're using all the latest data.
Michele:We're make make databases and the latest, you know, the IPCC is creating updates to the databases. And so there's, like, a whole a whole bunch of people that are in charge of that EcoInvent database that we are all using. And there's just a bunch of norms and protocols that are in place around that ISO system. And I'll tell you, technoeconomic analysis doesn't have that standardization. And the DOJ, the Department of Energy, the US Department of Energy put together this kind of tech test model, which is a TEA framework that we generally abide by at Boundless.
Michele:And there is an ISO, an international standard being created for techno economic analysis the way there is for LCA.
Markham:Okay. Mike Klein, you're up next. You've got the mic.
Speaker 6:Thank you. I'm just trying to connect some dots. I'm a layperson, so I don't know what most of you guys are talking about. Okay? So, I just, but I hear phrases like, units of measure, and and you and you talk about being relevant to, equity investors, to government investment.
Speaker 6:And I'm wondering if there is some kind of, cost or pricing or something per unit and what those per units what those units might be.
Michele:Okay. I'm not sure I understand the question.
Speaker 6:Okay. So you come up with an LCA. You do an assessment, and you come up with a report. And and your and equity investors and government look at your report, and they and on based on that report, they decide what the risk is, where the risk originates from, blah blah blah, all that stuff. Okay?
Michele:K.
Speaker 6:Yeah. But you're using you if I'm a simple minded bookkeeper accountant guy, I look at that and I say, what are we measuring? And and are we measuring it in dollar and cents terms?
Markham:And Are you asking her what the metrics are when they do an LCA?
Michele:Correct. Okay. So let me just review that for you. So when we I'll just pick a Canadian technology, just for, you know, variety sake. We assessed Ever Technologies, which is a geothermal energy storage system.
Michele:And we looked at, a number of metrics. We looked at, let me see. What did we analyze? We analyzed, their GHG footprint, their land footprint, air emissions, water footprint, carbon payback time, levelized cost of electricity, and carbon return on investment, which are generally the metrics we use for for energy storage technologies. So when I say unit of measure for GHG footprint, we're measuring the greenhouse gas impact per, megawatt of elect megawatt hour of electricity product produced.
Michele:That's the unit of measure for GHG footprint. When I'm measuring air emissions, I'm measuring the NOx, VOC, SOx, and, parts per million of emissions per megawatt hour of electricity produced.
Speaker 6:Okay. I think I'm beginning to get the idea.
Michele:I Understand?
Speaker 6:You're measuring tangible actually, physical measurements. Physical
Michele:Yes. Correct.
Speaker 6:And and somebody else is gonna be doing the costing or applying dollars and cents to that.
Michele:The levelized cost of electricity is us too. We're doing that. Right. Which is this we're looking at the cost of electricity produced for each islanded system. So these these geothermal systems are, I we're calling them islanded systems, levelized over a system's lifetime.
Michele:And then for carbon, for the other the other TEA metric, carbon return on investment, we're measuring the climate impact, positive or negative, of each $1,000,000 of euro investment because we did euros for that one because they had a lot of European customers.
Markham:Just we're a big fan we're big fans of ever here at Energy Media, and you're talking about that big, their first commercial project, South of Munich, that they started a couple of years ago. Correct. Which is which is I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna just gonna get on my soapbox for just a moment. It is a scandal scandal that a company that use oil sands drilling technology, that it's based in Calgary, did its pilot project in Rocky Mountain House, has to go to Germany to do its first full commercial project instead of Canada. Okay.
Markham:Enough of that. I'm off my soapbox now. Chris, well, hang on a second, Chris. We're gonna ask, we're gonna let Dali, who hasn't asked a question yet. Dali, you're up, please.
Markham:You have the mic.
Speaker 5:Okay. Did I Michel, did I understand you correctly? You are saying you are not always using,
Markham:peer reviewed reports?
Speaker 5:Then you are then you are giving to the client your report, sometimes you might use year review to final version of the report or not.
Markham:I think, Dolly, the the question is, are you, Michelle, when you prepare your reports, are you using peer review? And I guess what the what does that mean?
Michele:Every time. Every time. Every time we do a report, we hire an independent expert to do a review of that, report and to help us analyze. So we picked a geothermal energy expert for the ever assessment, and she reviewed the data the company gave us. She also did a review of our analysis.
Michele:So she looked at the calculations. She questioned the assumptions behind the calculations. She analyzed our model. She analyzes the technology and whether or not she believes some, you know, the the assessment was thoughtfully undertaken and reported.
Markham:Okay. Dolly, do you have any other questions?
Speaker 5:Yeah. The it's very important to have, this report, reviewed by technology technology experts because technologies are changing in probably now 7 years. Every every 7 years, it's totally new set of technology.
Michele:Totally agree.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Michele:I totally agree. We get a lot of value from having these industry experts who are, you know, technology experts, looking at these technologies and and questioning the viability of them.
Speaker 5:Yeah. The fact just a quick question. Right now, the sodium ion batteries are becoming, competing technology to lithium ion. And,
Michele:I've heard that.
Speaker 5:Yeah. And now the question is, because this is from China, how do you, get the best, best knowledge in that field? I
Markham:so If I understand this, Michelle, what he's asking is is that, sodium ion, batteries are now an emerging technology. They're being commercialized, but they all come from China. How can how might how could anyone do a a levelized cost levelized, you know, do your LCA on something that's produced there, where there are environmental questions, there are labor questions, all sorts of things.
Michele:Right. Well, I would okay. So I'm I don't think they're all in China, so I wouldn't, like I I think I've heard of sodium ion batteries, and I've heard that one of the I've heard of an American company doing sodium ion, so I wouldn't say they're all in China. But if the Chinese are putting out data on the performance of their batteries, we still would wanna look at it because we don't wanna ignore that. But we would need to understand, you know, what kind of research was done.
Michele:We'd have to you know, we'd look at the the research and the data and see what was submitted, and we'd see how realistic we thought it was. It's not you know, I think we it's it's we have not done a study of Chinese sodium ion batteries, so I can't talk on that. I can't comment on it. But I have heard that the sodium ion battery is is gonna give the lithium ion battery run for its money. I've also heard of other lithium, you know, ways of there's just so many interesting innovations that are that are trying to deal with these challenges, around the lithium problems with the lithium ion battery.
Markham:Chris, this will be our last question, then we're gonna let Michelle go. So be quick, be efficient with this, and get and ask a question, please.
Speaker 4:Oh, there's so much I wanna say. Okay. Just to, I guess, pick 1. The, I guess, Michelle, in terms of just carrying on with this discussion we have, LCA is basically, challenged can you talk about how LCA, has difficulties with new technologies versus, established technologies because LCA is built on on data that is historical and geographical. Yeah.
Michele:Okay. That's a good point. That's a good point. Okay. So when we're doing a new tech a brand spanking new technology, like, we were looking to stick with the batteries, since that's a good theme for today.
Michele:So we looked at a silicon, a replacement for silicon for the graphite in the anode of electric vehicle battery, a lithium ion battery. The the the anode, they're trying to replace the graphite with, silicon type, technology, and we looked at one of them. We were analyzing one of them. And so the team needed to go into the literature and look for data on different types of silicon, and other chemical combinations for the anode for the electric vehicle battery. This proved challenging because it was such a new cutting edge technology to I mean, obviously, finding data on the graphite, the performance of the graphite, there's lots and lots of studies you can access for that.
Michele:But looking for data on some of the new sodium not sodium. Sorry. Silicon pure silicon and silicon derivation type technologies was complicated. And in some cases, what we do then, it is easier to do LCAs on legacy technologies because there's a lot of data out there. It's like it's it's like the law.
Michele:It's harder to create laws when you don't when you don't have precedent or what have you. But what we do, and the team has gotten pretty good at this, but we'd very much involve our industry experts when we do this, is we we build a proxy. We build a proxy for a technology. So we build a a kind of LCA from scratch on the new technology. It's almost like a mini LCA, we call it.
Michele:And we end up using that as the comparison because, otherwise, we can't you know, there's also data. We're doing an assessment of a bio stimulant right now in it's a totally separate technology, but we do a lot of work in ag biotech. And we're doing an assessment of a bio stimulant for, crop, production and crop enhancement. And, we're looking at, you know, these bio stimulants are are much more natural than some of these industrial chemicals that have been used. And we're we're we're looking at some comparisons to other bio stimulants, and we're having trouble finding data on them because they're so new.
Michele:And so we're having to do that same thing about building the proxy. And sometimes we can do it, sometimes we can't. It it's a lot it's really challenging. I will I will say that.
Markham:Well, Michelle, thank you very much for this. We've reached the top of the hour. We're gonna let you go. We really, this has been quite fascinating. A little more technical than we're accustomed to, but, but, insightful, nevertheless.
Markham:So we and, hopefully, we'll have you back in the future. So thank you very much for this.
Michele:Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. Nice to meet everyone. Take care.
Markham:Take care.