Veterinary Ramblings

Our first interview with a Brit abroad! Our good friend Professor/Dr. Stephen Divers is a British vet living abroad in the United States of America. We discuss the difference between the two cultures and what that means for Steve's working life, Britishisms and how he translates these to his American students and his coral reef fish tank.Steve is also an endoscopic wizard, and shares his best practices and techniques and how he teaches these to his students.(Apologies in advance, we had technical difficulties during this episode and the audio quality is not quite up to our usual standard. We're doing all we can to improve our quality with each episode but unfortunately, tech can sometimes get the best of us!)Support the show

Show Notes

Steve is also an endoscopic wizard, and shares his best practices and techniques and how he teaches these to his students.

(Apologies in advance, we had technical difficulties during this episode and the audio quality is not quite up to our usual standard. We're doing all we can to improve our quality with each episode but unfortunately, tech can sometimes get the best of us!)

Support the show ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

What is Veterinary Ramblings?

Tired of boring, clinical veterinary podcasts? Join Veterinarian Dr Julian Hoad & Anaesthetic Expert Mike Brampton, as they interview inspirational guests each week who are related to the veterinary world. Veterinary Ramblings is like going for a drink with your favourite work colleagues after a long day - we’ll make you laugh, inspire you and perhaps teach you something new!

Mike Brampton: Oh, no.
Major glitch glitch.

Julian Hoad: Yeah you just froze
as well.

Are you back? You back up?

Mike Brampton: You're back. Ok.

Julian Hoad: Carry on moving
like this, very slowly

Mike Brampton: Good evening and
welcome to everybody.

My name is Mike Brampton

Julian Hoad: and my name is
Julian Hoad

and we are glitching terribly
folks

Mike Brampton: because your
video has completely frozen.

I've got a bad feeling about
tonight.

Julian Hoad: It's gonna be fine.
People will be very

understanding.
Brenda will be very

understanding because she'll
know we've tried our best

So, Mike, who do we have this
week?

Mike Brampton: This week, we've
got an old friend of ironically

both of ours who has left the
shores of the UK to find fame

and fortune in United States of
America.

A gentlemen, we know as Steve,
but I think, to his students, he

likes to be known as Professor
Stephen Divers.

Julian Hoad: Professor Stephen J
Divers I think

Mike Brampton: i think your
right, Professor Stephen J

Divers.
Steve, Steve bit like yourself.

He graduated initially, with a
Bachelor of medical science

physiology from King's College
London, way back in 1991.

I didn't actually know that
until I looked him up, which

would explain probably some of
the links that I've had with him

in the past,
because I first met him when I

was working with the training
department of London ambulance

service, which of course is all

Julian Hoad: Oh, yes

Mike Brampton: pretty much
physiology. And he then went on

to take his bachelor of
Veterinary Medicine from the RVC.

And that was in 1994.
He's founder of diplomat of the

European College of zoological
medicine,

diplomat of the American College
of zoological medicine,

diplomat of the Royal College of
Veterinary surgeons zoological

medicine,
fellow with the Royal College of

Veterinary surgeons,
and de facto diplomat of the

European College of zoological
medicine, and all of that sort

of stuff. And you and I know him
as Steve.

So let's get him in. He's in the
waiting room.

And here's Steve! Well, you
don't look very animated there,

Steve.

Stephen Divers: Don't worry. I'm
turning on my video.

Julian Hoad: We're such
professionals Steve. Honestly,

these days.
It's slick as anything, within

an hour or two, we can actually
be on and recording. Brilliant.

Stephen Divers: it's only 3: 30
in the afternoon here. So I'm

not supposed to have a drink.
But you're gonna be very, very

disappointed because I'm
actually having tea.

I've still got work to do. But
anyway,

Mike Brampton: No, we wouldn't
expect nothing less. I mean,

well,
you're the brit waving the flag

in the United States.

Stephen Divers: Julian I have to
say there is a significant lack

of foliage up here from when I
last saw you.

Julian Hoad: It's gone. I was
Mr. Curly Mop the last time I

saw you

Stephen Divers: You had loads of
hair, and then there was a

significant,
I mean, you had a hard time

trying to find a area that
wasn't sort of follicular.

And now it's like, it's all,
although Mike's not doing too

much better on top either to be
fair

Julian Hoad: Mike's still got
the beard, he's hoping that

eventually he can turn his head
upside down and have a normal

head of hair.

Stephen Divers: Yeah.

Julian Hoad: Steve, that's gonna
be what 20-22 years ago, is it?

Stephen Divers: Yeah, it's gotta
be something like that. Yeah, I

mean, well,
I graduated 94, joined Elands

and I think you, what was it 96
or something?

Julian Hoad: That's right 96,
Yeah.

Stephen Divers: 1996 and then I
saw Phil Lhermette on your show

A few weeks ago or?

Mike Brampton: Yeah

Julian Hoad: Our first boss, our
first boss. Yeah.

Stephen Divers: Yeah, that
brought some memories back

seeing him actually.
He's greyed a little bit. That

was probably more to do with his
daughters than it was to do with

us I suspect Julian.

Julian Hoad: I think it's all to
do with his daughters

Stephen Divers: Probably

Julian Hoad: Absolutely

Mike Brampton: Yeah, you keep
telling yourself that Steve.

Julian Hoad: You've picked up a
little bit of a twang there,

Steve, haven't you?

Stephen Divers: Well

Mike Brampton: Sounds more
Australian than American.

Stephen Divers: Yeah. So I get
that now, whenever I go home to

see my family, my parents and my
brother, my sister.

They tell me I sound very
American, fortunately, the

Americans still think I sound
very British.

And I think they're under the
misconception that I'm like 300

and 22nd in line to the British
throne.

So that often gets me out of
trouble as well.

Julian Hoad: So I'm holding the
cover sheet of, a facsimile, I

should say,

Stephen Divers: Yeah

Julian Hoad: Of a very, very
good textbook that Steve has co

edited.

Stephen Divers: Yes.

Julian Hoad: And it's the Bible,
basically, of reptile and

amphibian medicine and surgery.
Doug Mader wrote the previous

two editions.

Stephen Divers: He did. Doug and
I worked on the cut therapy,

which was like a current therapy
version between the second and

the third.
But yeah, I wrote the first and

the second. He edited that all
by himself.

But yeah, so this was like, this
is an interesting story about

So this is like 125 authors.
this. Right.

And anyone that even considers
writing a textbook, I suggest

you do it yourself.
Because trying to herd 125

authors is like trying to heard
a bunch of cats after dark in

thick fog.
I mean, it's just a nightmare.

Julian Hoad: I take my hat off
to you Steve if I'm editing a

BSAVA book

Stephen Divers: There you go,
you're gonna find out

Julian Hoad: 20 authors and
that's hard enough.

Stephen Divers: So what's
interesting, though, so every

author, right, because they
don't pay you very much for

doing these things. Right. It's
a love.

It's, you know, it's a very
altruistic sort of love thing

that you do for the profession.
You don't get paid a lot of

money for doing this.
But every author was supposed to

get one copy of the book, right?
And every editor, ie, myself and

Scott, right, we were supposed
to get eight copies.

Well, Elsevier made a little
mistake.

Elsevier sent every author 125
of them.

Each author got eight copies of
the book. Now, each book is $180.

Julian Hoad: Yeah.

Stephen Divers: So when you do
the math, Elsevier basically

sent out a quarter of a million
dollars of books that they

shouldn't have done, and then
had to kind of clamour to get

them back again.
But anyway, they've managed to

do it. So I think we may have
flooded the market a little bit

early with this, we'll see.,

Julian Hoad: Well I'll reserve
my addition, tomorrow, I will

actually,

Stephen Divers: You know, what's
concerning me is as you age,

every decade, there's something
that happens, like I remember in

our 20's and Julian can attest
to this.

There was a lot of partying that
was going on, there was a lot of

drinks going, in fact,
the parties above the Elands

veterinary clinic was fairly
notorious because I remember

once Philip came into work,
and he said, 'I understand there

was a party here on Saturday
night'

I'm like 'how did you know?' and
he said, apparently, they were

talking about it in the
hairdresser's in town.

So at that point, I knew we had
achieved some degree of

notoriety. But anyway, in my
20s, you know, you could drink,

I used to smoke
In your 30s, you know, that has

to kind of be curtailed, and
then you hit 40s, and you have

to be careful about what you
eat, and stuff like that.

And so, I'm convinced the reason
why people die is because people

take away all the pleasures in
life,

and there's nothing worth living
for at that point. So you might

as well just pop your clogs.

Julian Hoad: It's true. It's
like the man who goes to the

doctor, and he says, If I give
up wine, women and song will I

live longer, and the doctor says
well...

Stephen Divers: So you know, and
I knew I was middle age, when I

think it was about 10 years ago,
I was about 40.

And I sneezed in front of the
bathroom mirror and put my back

out for two days.
And at that point, I realised

that middle age is well and
truly here. So anyway,

Mike Brampton: Have you given up
the motorbikes Steve?

Stephen Divers: Actually, I
didn't acquire another motorbike

when I came over to the states.
I came over in 2001, left the

bike in the UK, sold the bike
and the reason being is because

they make you take another test
again,

and at that point I dunno I just
thought maybe not.

Now. I'm more fearful as you get
older, I become more fearful of

my own mortality.
When I when I was in my 20s. It

was like, 'Yay, off we go, we'll
bounce it doesn't matter.' But

now I find I don't bounce
anywhere near as much as I used

to. Right.

Julian Hoad: I remember getting
on the back of your bike,

Stephen Divers: Really? Because
normally they were usually more

attractive than you but anyway,
but fair enough. Maybe you did.

That's fine.

Julian Hoad: Presumably because
I had hair then you let me.

Stephen Divers: Maybe, maybe

Julian Hoad: I was holding on
behind, every time I stuck my

head out to see what happened, I
was pushed back by this waft of

air and you kept on saying
'don't lean out!'

'You leaned out!' 'Sorry, sorry,
sorry!'

Stephen Divers: Lot of fun, I
did enjoy it.

What was interesting, so when I
came to the States, you have to

do all these extra things, so
you have to take a driving test.

And you know, which is fair
enough.

But the DMV is notorious for
being slow and very inefficient.

But I remember I went and did
the theory and they said,

'right, you got to go outside
for a practical driving test.'

So I was like, okay, so we go
out in the parking lot,

I get in the car, we're in a car
park, right. And we drive to the

end of the car park
and they say 'Turn left' so I

turn left,
'Turn left, turn left again,

turn left then park.
Congratulations, you've passed.'

I'm like, you have no idea if I
can turn right. And you're

giving me a driving licence?
But it's kind of the way it is

over here. But yeah, it's
definitely a, there's a culture,

a culture shift, let's say, put
it that way.

Julian Hoad: Do you like it over
there?

Stephen Divers: So it's
interesting, right. So there are

certain things that I absolutely
adore,

I miss my family, family and
friends is probably the big

negative. British culture, you
know, going to the pub, and that

kind of stuff I miss

Mike Brampton: So do we!

Julian Hoad: We haven't done
that in a while

Stephen Divers: Yeah. But what
I've realised is that because I

left in 2001, I miss the England
of 2001.

And when I go back now, I don't
quite recognise it, it's not

quite the same place, you know
what I'm saying? So it's weird.

But there are certain things
like family, family things I

miss. And I try and get over
there at least once a year.

But then what I've got over here
is, you know, I work in

$100million state of the art,
you know, academic teaching

hospital, and we've got all the
gadgets

and I mean, the caseload, the
high referral caseload, it's

phenomenal. I mean, it really is.
So there's those kind of

benefits. And I have to say, now
I'm in academia, I'd have a hard

time going back to private
practice.

Julian Hoad: Do you have pets?

Stephen Divers: We have pets?
Yes, we've got two cats, Tiger,

and Nina.
And then I guess I have pets as

well, I've got a marine reef
tank, I have a 300 gallon reef

tank in my office and a 55
gallon reef tank in my office.

Mike Brampton: Wow

Stephen Divers: I emailed the
building manager. And I said,

'Can you tell me, is the floor
of my office,

is it like reinforced concrete?
and he said, 'Why do you need to

know?'
I said, 'Well, I just want to

put a fish tank in.' He said
'Well how big is the fish tank?'

Well, 300 gallon tank weighs you
know, two and a half tonnes or

something so, but what I did got
all my tanks in before the

building officially opened.
Because it's in academia, there

is a general motto, which is you
ask for forgiveness, not for

permission.
And so I thought if I get these

tanks in, there'll be immobile
and immovable. And so they'll

just accept them. And they did.
But I did, while putting

together, spring a bit of a leak.
And so at the opening ceremony,

the dean did make a comment
about the fact that we'd already

had our first incident with a
fish tank leak on the second

floor.
But apart from that, it's been

okay.

Julian Hoad: What sort of fish
do you have in there?

Stephen Divers: Oh, you know,
like Pacific Tangs, blue chrome,

clown fish, those kinds of
things, but really most of it is

about the corals, you know, the
anemones, soft corals, SPS.

The whole system is probably,
it's pretty expensive system.

It's all computer controled.
So I can actually on my phone, I

can actually show you that. So
this is in real time.

So this is in real time, I can
tell you the pH, the salinity I

can turn pumps off, I can feed
fish, I can do all sorts,

but it's the whole system
probably about 15-18 grand, I

would say it's pretty expensive.

Julian Hoad: Is it easy to keep
going once you've set it up?

Stephen Divers: Well, it's a lot
of hassle to take it back down

again, put it that way. I mean,
once it's up and running, you

kind of just want to keep it
going. Right.

So that can be problematic. But
no it's fun, actually, I kind of

enjoy it. I used to have the
tank at home, but I would spend

so much time at work.
By the time I come home, I'd sit

down, you know, at the end of
the day, and I would just sit

down in front of the tank to
admire it

and then blink, the lights would
turn off and it would be the end

of the corals day.
And so I decided to move into my

office so that every now and
again I can just turn around and

gaze at the undersea Odyssey in
front of me.

Mike Brampton: You swap this
undersea Odyssey instead of

doing cat vaccinations?

Stephen Divers: So actually no,
the replacement was that I used

to do a lot of scuba diving.

Mike Brampton: Right

Stephen Divers: And then I
stopped doing scuba diving,

largely because obviously having
a young family and stuff its

difficult to do all that kind of
travelling.

So then I decided, Well, how do
I get my, you know, marine fix

and so there are two ways to do
that.

One is that I have a marine fish
tank in my office and, two,

Sunday night is now fish and
chips night at the Diver's

House. So that's kind of our
approach.

Mike Brampton: It's traditional
British fish and chips, yeah?

Stephen Divers: Kind of, it's
difficult to get cod in Athens,

Georgia, put it that way.
It's more like tilapia, breaded

tilapia and chips

Julian Hoad: But its fish and
fries though isn't it, it's not

fish and chips?

Stephen Divers: True. If you
describe it to other people,

other Americans, then I have to
say fish and fries.

Because if I say fish and chips,
they're like, what fish and then

like potato, like crisps or
something.

So, but you bring up a good
point. So I actually have a list

of Britishisms, and a glossary
in the hospital so that the

students, because otherwise they
get very confused,

because if we start talking
about you know, everything's

gonna go pear shaped, you know,
sixes and sevens, or, you know,

whatever we say, chock a block
or whatever,

all the students are completely
confused. So we have to have

some Britishisms summary on the
board, so they can keep track

but anyway, yeah, fish and chips.

Julian Hoad: Otherwise, it's not
cricket is it.

Stephen Divers: Exactly.
So on the topic of cricket, So

remember when I went over here
first of all, a friend of

mine Scott, the other co edito
of the book, we often would go

to conferences together and w
would share a hotel room.

And, you know, as I was now a US
citizen, I said to him, You know

what, you're gonna have to teach
me the rules of American

football,
Anyway, approximately six

minutes later, that was done and
dusted. It's not a particularly

complicated game. And so then he
said 'Could you teach me

cricket?'
Anyway, two and a half hours

later, he is no further down the
road of learning about the

intricacies of cricket. I mean,
it just, you know, wasn't going

to happen.

Julian Hoad: it was a game
invented purely to foil

foreigners. That's that's the
reason cricket was invented

Stephen Divers: I think so i
think so.

Julian Hoad: So there's a lot of
work, isn't there, going into

trying to engineer or force
evolution of corals to live at

higher temperatures and in
different salinities,

different conditions to make
them more robust, given global

warming. Is that something you're
involved in Steve?

Stephen Divers: Well, so let's
just be clear. I mean, you know,

the United States at the moment,
our republican president and I'm

from Georgia, which is also
Republican,

we don't refer to it as global
warming. Right, we refer to it

we as as climate change, because
that sounds far less malignant.

So that's kind of the term we
should use, but to answer your

question, I have not been
involved.

I've done some work on some
coral diseases with ecology, but

not a great deal. This is
definitely like a hobby thing

rather than a work thing.
Most of the fish stuff I've

done, there's been things like,
Well, let me think we did some

endoscopic gonad evaluations and
biopsies in endangered sturgeon.

And we've done some sturgeon
sonic transmitters and

implantations and things that so

Julian Hoad: Cavier to the
masses, so to speak,

Stephen Divers: right, right.
Yeah, that was on the

Mississippi River. And I had
these idyllic visions of you

know, Tom Sawyer, and you know,
Huckleberry Finn

and floating down the
Mississippi with a straw hat.

Let me tell you in January, it's
very, very cold.

It was so cold that we used
saline, it's a saline infusion

rather than co2 insufflation. So
it's a saline infusion that goes

into the body cavity of the fish,
the saline was freezing in the

line before it got to the fish,
sometimes, thats how cold it

was, it was so cold, you know
those hand warmers, you know,

so I'd have hand warmers shoved
in the inside of my surgical

gloves and you could do about
one fish and then you would sort

of break your frozen tendons
and put your fingers into your

palm to warm them up again while
they got the next fish ready. It

was very cold not pleasant

Mike Brampton: Was there a
reason you did this in winter

and not in summer then?

Stephen Divers: Well see, now
see, that's where my ignorance

of, you know, the ecology of the
Mississippi because I just kind

of immediately made the
connection of you know,

Huckleberry Finn straw hats, you
know, flip flops on, you know,

so no one told me it's gonna be
that cold.

Julian Hoad: I don't think
reading Huckleberry Finn, I

can't remember a time where it
says. So Tom went inside and got

his muffler and parker.

Stephen Divers: Right. Well, and
so it was run actually by the US

Army Corps of Engineers. So this
was more like a seals operation.

They had these like fast boats.
Everyone's in camo, right,

except the vets, the vets, they
like to put the vets in a bright

orange one piece floatation suit,
with a bright orange balaklava

on the basis that either we're
an easy target if there's a

sniper, or
if we fall in the water, because

we'd be silly enough to do that
they can fish us out more easily.

Julian Hoad: Probably both of
these reasons

Stephen Divers: probably both

Mike Brampton: Let's admit it.
You wanted a camo suit, didn't

you?

Stephen Divers: I did ask
actually, if I could have a camo

suit. And, and I got one in the
end.

I think it was by day two, the
first day I felt like a large.

I felt like a bit of a carrot,
shall we say. On the second day

I did get my camo

Mike Brampton: No, sir. No,
those are operational procedures.

Julian Hoad: So you say you're
doing endoscopy on on this fish?

That's a real love of yours
isn't it, endoscopy?

Stephen Divers: I do like the
endoscopy. And it's interesting

because I actually started that
with Phil's practice.

Julian Hoad: I know, I remember

Stephen Divers: Remember, we
were hanging around?

Julian Hoad: Yeah.

Stephen Divers: And it's
interesting, right? Because, you

know, Phil wasn't into it at the
time then.

But then he went on and got into
it in a big way. And he became

the editor of the BSAVA manual

Julian Hoad: He's now the god of
endoscopy in England.

Stephen Divers: I know,

Julian Hoad: and your the god of
endoscopy in America,

Stephen Divers: I think we tell
the same story of this evolution

that occurred in Elands from
very different perspectives. I'm

sure the truth is probably
somewhere in between.

Hey, I don't know. Can I share a
screen? I want to show you guys

something I found a photograph
I promise I won't do anything.

risque. But I want to show you a
picture

Mike Brampton: I don't know if
I'm actually going to see it

Steve, but Yeah, please. Let's
see if that's allowed it there?

Stephen Divers: Okay, and we go.
Okay, can you see? Can you see

this picture?

Julian Hoad: Yes. Gosh!

Stephen Divers: This must be
circa. I don't know. This could

easily have been when you were
there. Julian, this could have

been in 1990 to be fair,
or 1995? I don't know.

But that's that's me as a new or
recent graduate. And then you

can see Phil there. He doesn't
look much different To be fair,

right. But anyway, I found that
picture. And I thought I had to

show you guys because you had
him on a couple of weeks ago.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, for sure.

Julian Hoad: I remember that. I
remember that. operating and

prep room. Great. Well,
fantastic.

Mike Brampton: That's Brilliant
steve .

Julian Hoad: You can't see this
Mike, But I'm holding up an

advert for an endoscopy training
symposium that, that Steve now,

have you organised this or have
you been asked to

Stephen Divers: We do that every
year. This has been going on

since like 2004. Every year we
do a three day course at UGA.

And we've had people from, we've
had one or two people from

England, but we definitely get a
few people from Europe.

We've had people from Australia,
Korea, China, North America,

obviously North America, but
also South and Central America.

We have 16 people and we teach
them the sort of six of

diagnostic endoscopy, birds,
reptiles and mammals. It's

something that I that I enjoy
doing.

And when you're dealing with
these exotic animal, in fact,

let me show you an example. We
can chat about that. And I can

show you hang on a second.

Julian Hoad: So again, I'm just
gonna fill in here for the

people who can't see this
because Steve is showing us an

endoscopic view of the inside of
a red eared slider is that?

Sudamice scripta is it?

Stephen Divers: Almost,
Trachemys scripta elegans, but

that was a good stab.

Julian Hoad: Well sudamice was
the original name probably

Stephen Divers: Probably back in
the 60s. Yeah

Julian Hoad: So you're doing a
salpingectomy, you're removing

the the ovaries and the uterus
essentially

Stephen Divers: so basically,
you know what people love their

tortoises in the UK, which is
why I decided to show you some

sort of tortoise chelonian
pictures but

being able to do these kinds of
surgeries now we can perform

Salpingohysterectomis, we can
remove eggs, we can remove

actually we're pretty good now
for routine ovariectomy

we're doing this in sub adult to
adult females routinely before

they develop reproductive
disease,

we can now go into a soft tissue
approach with the endoscope, in

front of the back leg don't have
to go through the shell.

I mean, we used to go through
that shell.

Julian Hoad: yeah,

Stephen Divers: we probably did
some of those back at elands.

nd it's a much more traumatic
invasive procedure, right,

Julian Hoad: I remember mixing
up the fibreglass for you.

Stephen Divers: That's it,
right, you remember.

Now, we can avoid that by using
these endoscopic techniques. And

so that worked out pretty well.
So this was something, this sort

of endoscopic approach to
resolving reproductive issues is

something that we developed in
the clinic, so we could avoid

going through the shell.
And then here's a bigger

example. This was a conservation
project we did in the Galapagos.

Okay, so this is a giant
tortoise.

And these were hybrids. So they
weren't of any ecological value-

they weren't of any conservation
value from a breeding

perspective.
But they wanted to release these

hybrid females to help engineer
the island recovery, because it

was all getting overgrown
because there was no tortoises

on the island, and they killed
off all the all the invasive

goats.
And so it's just a video showing

how you can take that 100 kilos
tortoise. And we can perform a

ectomy without going through the
shell.

So anyway, this video is gonna
play so you can keep chatting,

and we can keep talking, but I
thought you might want to see

that

Mike Brampton: This is excellent.

Julian Hoad: And again, for the
benefit of those poor people who

can't see this, or, indeed for
anyone who's covering their

eyes, because they don't want to
see it.

What Steve is doing now is
making an incision through the

soft tissue in the, essentially
the groin region of one of these

huge 100 kilo tortoises.
And he's introducing a little

endoscope, a rigid endoscope and
identifying the ovaries, and is

then using I imagine, do you use
a LigaSure?

Stephen Divers: I'll just bring
it forward a bit. So you go in

with an instrument and then you
can grab the arms in the

endoscope to guide you.
And once you've grabbed the

overary and you pull the first
part up to the skin, then you

can just feed out the entire
ovary out through that incision

and obviously, this is a good
thing

because this is at the Darwin
Centre in the Galapagos, so we

don't have a surgical theatre.
And so the good thing about this

sort of endoscopic or
endosurgical endoscope assisted

approach is that everything
which is exteriorized is

removed, right?
You're not putting anything

back, whereas if you opened up,
you could imagine you could get

a lot of contamination, but look
at the size, that's one ovary.

Julian Hoad: That's huge, about
the size of a bunch of grapes,

but the grapes in this case are
tangerines

Mike Brampton: almost tennis
ball size, some of those.

Stephen Divers: Yeah, some of
them are like, yeah, 2-3

centimetres in diameter.

Mike Brampton: Yeah.

Stephen Divers: And so when you
think we did about 39-40

tortoises over about 3-4 days.
So we're not using LigaSure,

we're using radiosurgery here
with hemoclips.

And I was like, removing all
this egg materials, like we must

be able to come up with some
kind of like recipe like a

galapagus Flan? Or a key lime
pie or?

You know, something, you would
think, but apparently...

I mean, you'll see, this is one
ovary going into the bucket. And

we had buckets of galapagus
overies.

So that's just, it was just a
nice conservation technique that

was developed from what we
learned as clinicians you know,

in the hospital dealing with
people's pets.

Julian Hoad: Gosh, that's
absolutely incredible. I'd never

tire of looking at endoscopy
stuff. I wonder how squeamish

some of our viewers are but...

Stephen Divers: Oh. Let's find
out. Anyone that vomits, please

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