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Millennial with a Masters in Education; Passionate yapper, empathetic listener, & always here to validate your irrational thoughts. This podcast is a dedicated safe space where I share the good, the grim, & the WTF in a day of the life of a high school guidance counselor. Also a dedicated safe space for anyone in education or educator who loves what they do, but needs a drink.
Earth Angels in ESE
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[00:00:00] me: In a world where we all learn at different paces, through different learning styles, and all have unique and individual needs, I don't know where schools would be without a department like ESE. And I don't just mean like for kids with learning disabilities or ASD or they're gifted, I mean there are students who really just have unique learning needs and I feel more often than not- Educators and God bless educators, I mean all of them- but more often than not, um, we fail to look at the bigger picture. And that is why I thank God for this department, because , that's where they thrive. It's amazing to see them work and to see them show up and give it all they got when they are expected to do the most, while given the bare minimum.
It's amazing. I mean, I've learned things through them that I haven't even gained through my own department or through watching a classroom. So I'm super excited to introduce my next guest because she is the head of the ESE department. She's the ESE specialist, and she is one renegade of a woman.
She's got that fire in her. She has that passion. Like me, we get to discuss serving students, meeting them where they're at, working for a system that doesn't, that's not built to serve them.
Um, and we definitely talk about inner work, grounding ourselves in a field like ours. 'cause education is chaotic and it's important to kind of like touch grass. So I'm excited to get into all that with her, pick her brain, and share her with you guys. I feel like I'm gate keeping her.
So if you're new here, this is Counselor Chronicles. I am year three on being a school guidance counselor. And though I don't, I don't have it all figured out. I am evolving every day. So I'm doing that through collaborating with different departments and. Today I have Kristen. This is Counselor Chronicles, a dedicated safe space where we share the good, the grim, the WTF in a day of the life of a school guidance counselor.
Also, a dedicated safe space for anyone in education or educator who loves what they do, but desperately needs that drink.
Okay. Yay. Finally, you're like the cherry on top for me. So this is, I can't tell you how ex how excited I am. I'm with ESE, the ESE specialist. The, the queen of calm. The queen of calm here. I say my safe space, safe haven. God sent angel, Kristen Rusnak,
[00:02:28] kristen: I appreciate the introduction.
[00:02:29] me: No, absolutely. I know that you are such a busy person, so it's hard to get to you, but I said, you know what, I'll get her on a PSD early release day whenever the chaos is limited.
And for anyone who doesn't know what ESE stands for, it is Exceptional Student Education, where you guys never fail to use a collaborative approach to meet kids where they're at, And meet their unique and individual needs. And I feel like without you guys, I really I don't know where I'd be, I'm not gonna speak to the school, but I don't know where I would be.
'cause I've gained a lot of knowledge just in these last three years through this department and learning to meet those kids that way. Awesome. But, um, but I wanted to start off because I know that like I reached out previously, I got a little history on you.
[00:03:13] Kristen Intro
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[00:03:13] me: I remember last time we spoke you were, you took a break, you were, you have a master's Yes. From FSU
[00:03:19] kristen: Yes, I do.
[00:03:20] me: In emotional disturbances and learning disabilities.
[00:03:23] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:23] me: You said you took a break.
[00:03:24] kristen: Took a break.
[00:03:25] me: Okay. Talk to me about that. Tell me like, what brought brought you here.
[00:03:30] kristen: So I began my journey in education.
[00:03:34] me: Yeah.
[00:03:34] kristen: Um, really from a place of wanting to make a massive difference.
[00:03:38] me: Yeah.
[00:03:38] kristen: Right. And so I went into wanting to really, push the envelope
probably very much like my mom and my father that were also in education make become my own trailblazer.
[00:03:52] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:52] kristen: So I started because of my background with, my mom and what she did with her kids with disabilities, I had this innate feeling that that was always what I was going to do, but I also felt like I was also going and wanted to do more.
Um, so I started out at Taravella.
[00:04:15] me: Yeah.
[00:04:15] kristen: And, spent about a good, I would say seven years, maybe less. Oh no, I think it was seven. Um, and I started to get a niche
[00:04:24] me: Yeah.
[00:04:24] kristen: Of, Hey, is this it right? And like,
[00:04:28] me: hold up, do I have passion?
[00:04:30] kristen: Is there, is there more?
[00:04:32] me: Right.
[00:04:32] kristen: Um, so I said to myself, I was like, well, maybe I'll go back and do school leadership.
[00:04:37] me: Yeah.
[00:04:37] kristen: Um. Simultaneously. Right. There was also, we were hitting the recession, and so here I was managing,
[00:04:48] me: was it circa oh eight 10?
[00:04:50] kristen: Yeah,
[00:04:50] me: yeah,
[00:04:50] kristen: yeah. So I was trying to coach a team.
[00:04:54] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:54] kristen: Right. And bring a team that, and if any of these, um, young athletes are listening
[00:05:00] me: mm-hmm.
[00:05:00] kristen: They know that that was like my heart and soul.
Yeah. And I love that team. Yeah. So we were trying to do, and we were doing things that, um, most of the teams in Broward County weren't doing. So I was trying to coach a team, and then I was also trying to, you know, manage my job, but also I was like, I need more.
Yeah.
So I thought going into school leadership would be what I needed.
So I started my path back up to FAU, did school leadership, and then at the same time, I was dealing with social pressures, my own personal pressures of watching my friends make a gazillion dollars.
Yeah.
And
[00:05:32] me: there's always that comparison for some reason, no matter, even if you love what you do, it's like, damn, could I be making more
[00:05:36] kristen: money?
[00:05:37] me: Could I
[00:05:37] kristen: be doing more? Could I be doing, could I be making more money?
[00:05:38] me: That's, and unfortunately, that's the first question, could I be making more money versus do I love what I do?
[00:05:43] kristen: That's right.
[00:05:43] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:44] kristen: That's right. And that was the striving thing where I associated money with success.
[00:05:51] me: Yes.
[00:05:52] kristen: And so, I was sitting in my leadership class.
I'll never forget this. I was, I was sitting there and I was like, okay, these people around me, um, no disrespect, but half of them aren't prepared. I thought this was like this next step. And it wasn't fulfilling me like that.
[00:06:07] me: Yeah.
[00:06:07] kristen: So the recession hit.
[00:06:09] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:10] kristen: And I said, I, this isn't, I need something else. I need to do something else. So I. It kind of aligned with a friend of mine getting an opportunity to open up her own business. And so I took a leap and I left. And I don't regret it because it gave me what I needed.
[00:06:28] me: Hindsight's 2020, man.
[00:06:29] kristen: Right. But it also showed me that, it's not about the money.
[00:06:34] me: Yeah.
[00:06:34] kristen: That fulfills the cup.
[00:06:35] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:36] kristen: And that didn't come back into my orbit until the pandemic hit and it made me stop.
[00:06:41] me: Yeah.
[00:06:42] kristen: And it made me see that I was so off track of wanting to make a difference.
[00:06:48] me: Yep.
[00:06:49] kristen: And so, I think what also was happening was when you're in a system and the system doesn't work.
[00:06:55] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:56] kristen: And I wanted to blow up the system, but I didn't know how to blow it up.
[00:06:59] me: Yeah.
[00:07:00] kristen: I got frustrated and I left the system and so. Coming back into the school system.
[00:07:08] me: Yeah.
[00:07:08] kristen: Which I never thought I was going to do.
Um, it's, it's funny how I'm here and , I still don't like the system, if that makes sense.
[00:07:20] me: Yeah.
[00:07:20] kristen: Um, because it's, it, as much as it's a blessing, there's also some curses in the way that the school systems run
[00:07:27] me: very flawed.
[00:07:28] kristen: Yeah. Yeah. So that's how
I am here.
[00:07:30] me: I could listen to that story over and over just because Yes.
It's so relatable and I feel like, yeah, you come into this pivotal aha moment where you're like, I wanna do something that's fulfilling and I wanna make that change. But I, I think I said this to either myself or someone else, I said, even if you can't change the system, if I can be a change agent in someone's day.
[00:07:51] kristen: That's right.
[00:07:52] me: Like, if I come in and I take you from a. You're at a one. If I take you to a three or a five on that scale, I've done my job.
[00:07:59] kristen: And I hear you because that's what I feel like, that's what I mean, Victoria, that's what I enjoy working with you because I see what you do.
I see the difference you're making. I think where I like, kind of like still scratch my head
[00:08:10] me: Yes.
[00:08:10] kristen: Is as much as I know and I am way more fulfilled by making a difference one human at a time.
[00:08:17] me: Yeah.
[00:08:19] kristen: Where does that pressure then come that we don't make enough money?
[00:08:22] me: Yeah.
[00:08:22] kristen: You know, and like that's this part that
[00:08:27] me: also burnout.
Also burnout.
[00:08:29] kristen: But then I had this moment the other day where I said, I was like in the kitchen with my sister and I go, God man, I love my job.
[00:08:35] me: Yeah.
I get you have moments you're going, oh
God, yes,
[00:08:38] kristen: I love my job.
[00:08:39] me: I did that today.
[00:08:40] kristen: Um, but I, but I took it as like time, right? So like if you really look at it from like how much time that we don't work, every day. Like, I was working so much in the business world and I think, there's a part where I just, this love for my job, I have- and I am so grateful for that because it actually helps get through these moments that you get the pressure of, and or you get frustrated and then the dysfunction Yep.
You get annoyed with the adults. But when I get back to what I love
[00:09:11] me: Yeah. You're like, this is what I'm here for.
[00:09:13] kristen: Correct.
And then when finding people like you and I have a really great team here, it, it makes the suck. Not suck.
[00:09:22] me: Agreed. No, the feeling is mutual. 'cause like I said, you work with different people in different departments.
You get that one every few that you're like, okay. I see you, you see me, we're, we're here to do change. We're here to make a difference. And you are not just miserable and you're not just here to get a checklist. When I see there are other people who are like-minded and also just as passionate, I feel like, okay, I'm in the right place.
This is just a shitty system we work in.
[00:09:45] kristen: Right.
[00:09:45] me: And I think that's like a daily battle that we deal with. Speaking of shitty systems.
[00:09:49] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:50] Shitty systems and discipline policies
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[00:09:50] me: You know, I wanna talk about what you think, what do you feel about the zero tolerance policy? And I know you and I talk about this all the time, but like, I haven't gotten the chance to dive deep.
I spoke with my friend who is now a teacher in Massachusetts, and she's like, Hey, I've worked in Broward for 11 years, and while there is that, Massachusetts has nearly no discipline. She said, someone has smashed a head in a bathroom and they got one day suspension.
So she's like, they do give me the liberty to teach freely, to teach the truth you know, they, they, she does get that freedom. Um, but she feels that in every state there's a, there's a shocking contrast and I guess there's discipline.
So I'm like, well,
[00:10:29] kristen: I can speak for that. So I feel like when we get into disciplines and we get into creating a narrative for a child that they end up falling into typically.
[00:10:38] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:39] kristen: Right? So, people, humans do things for two reasons. They do it to get something or get away. So when you look at it from just the fundamental aspect of that, take out all the other variables, right?
But like, you're either doing something to get something or get away. So your discipline that ends up getting thrown to these students sometimes is so disproportionate.
[00:11:00] me: It's so disproportionate,
[00:11:01] kristen: totally disproportionate to what they end up doing. And then if you actually. Get into the root of the why mm-hmm.
What's happening.
[00:11:07] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:08] kristen: It's either they're trying to either get away from the rigor of the classroom 'cause they can't handle it.
[00:11:12] me: They're avoiding it. Yeah.
[00:11:13] kristen: Right. And also they're, they're pushed into a system that they don't fit into.
[00:11:17] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:18] Getting Away vs Getting Attention
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[00:11:18] kristen: Or so they're either getting away or they're getting attention.
And even though we don't agree that it's good attention, it could be the attention that they end up not getting when they go home.
[00:11:26] me: And when it comes down to that, there's no such thing as bad attention to them.
[00:11:29] kristen: Right.
[00:11:29] me: It's like where someone sees me finally.
[00:11:31] kristen: Right. And so it's funny you brought this up 'cause we were actually talking about it yesterday.
We were questioning why somebody would get a couple days for vaping.
[00:11:39] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:40] kristen: You know, and
[00:11:41] me: that's a good question.
[00:11:42] kristen: You know, days, days that they're not having instructional time. Yeah, yeah. So now you're going home and you're out of,
[00:11:48] me: they're still vaping at home.
[00:11:49] kristen: And, and that's what we were saying, like, Hey you did this, where is the, the moment to pause to say.
Why did you do this?
[00:11:58] me: Yeah.
[00:11:58] kristen: What's going on? You know, and also this moment and then, and I think that's, it's something that I really am trying to bring forth in what I do.
[00:12:08] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:08] kristen: My daily interaction is getting people to like, slow down for a sec.
[00:12:11] me: Yes.
[00:12:11] kristen: And just pause and say, wait, like, well wait before we do this, can we just stop for a moment and say, what else is going on here?
[00:12:17] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:17] kristen: I think in Florida in particular, 'cause it's so interesting you bring up Massachusetts. 'cause I have a lot of respect for what they do up there. Yeah. They're different.
[00:12:25] me: Yeah.
[00:12:26] Creating Narratives, Unconcious Biases, & School-Prison Pipelines
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[00:12:26] kristen: Um, but what we do in Florida in particular is we have created a pipeline and
[00:12:31] me: school to prison pipeline!
That's my next segue.
[00:12:33] kristen: A hundred percent.
[00:12:34] me: Yeah.
[00:12:34] kristen: And remember too, then these people that are also disciplining or even our security staff. Mm-hmm. Right. That will say, well, you know, you're gonna end up heading to jail. So now you are, you've
[00:12:46] me: now put the idea,
[00:12:47] kristen: you have created the story around the curriculum,
[00:12:49] me: the global schema of the child thinking, okay, well that's all I'll amount to be.
Right?
Great.
I'll just play the part.
[00:12:53] kristen: Right? Yeah. So you have created a narrative for these children and also sometimes literally to your own unaware, you are creating your own bias towards what this child can and cannot do by this narrative. Now, I'm not saying that some of them aren't gonna end up there, but I
[00:13:10] me: I'm sorry I jotted this down because I don't wanna forget what you're talking That's biased responding,
[00:13:14] kristen: correct.
[00:13:14] me: It is. It's unconscious attitudes. that influence their perceptions,
[00:13:19] kristen: I wasn't unaware of bias and unbiased and how I show up with that until I read a book.
[00:13:24] me: Yes,
yes.
[00:13:25] kristen: And I had a real,
[00:13:25] me: I think we're all guilty of that.
[00:13:27] kristen: We are.
It's true.
Yes.
[00:13:28] me: Yes.
[00:13:29] kristen: You, you have a flavor preference, they call it. No, it's actually underlining bias. And so even. Right. Sometimes, even though we have administrators
[00:13:39] me: mm-hmm.
[00:13:39] kristen: That doesn't necessarily mean they were the best teacher.
It doesn't mean necessarily
[00:13:42] me: they're former frauds. It's all I, I've learned that and stuck in my head.
[00:13:46] kristen: I mean,
[00:13:46] me: I think aps are just former frauds of themselves
[00:13:49] kristen: and they're also, they're also like, whatever pressure they're getting about these numbers. Because honestly, when it goes back to it, it's a
[00:13:58] me: chain of command.
[00:13:58] kristen: Some of the discipline, right. It ends up getting hidden. Mm-hmm. Because they don't want their numbers to look bad for school grades. It's like really sick when you get into like what you do report. Report what? You don't report
[00:14:09] me: it's a business. Yes, honey.
[00:14:10] kristen: Yeah.
And now it's getting even worse with what's happening with school choice.
[00:14:14] me: Yep.
low enrollment.
[00:14:15] kristen: Yeah. You gotta hide with the, the reality.
Mm-hmm.
So as soon as the kid falls into the cycle, and I mean, I think you've seen it, right?
[00:14:23] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:23] kristen: As soon as the first fight happens,
[00:14:25] me: a couple of our own, couple of my kids you've worked with, and we've seen this year,
[00:14:28] kristen: same cycle.
And, let's not talk names, but we have that one student. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, he's a great example. It's like if you. If you went back and looked at that student that we both fought for at the beginning of the school year to say,
[00:14:41] me: mm-hmm.
[00:14:42] kristen: Um, to slow down before, like, give 'em a chance. Let's make a plan.
And again, that's the like a disconnect. Your administrators are moving in this direction of having to get it done,
without knowing anything. And that was, that's also mind blowing to me. 'cause again, it's like, it, it's like fundamental stuff of like root cause analysis, best root cause analysis.
[00:15:03] Root cause analysis: The Five Why's
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[00:15:03] kristen: The easiest thing is the five why's. Yeah. If you do five why's, you can usually get down into what is,
[00:15:08] me: what
are the five why's. If you know,
[00:15:09] kristen: you just ask, you ask why five times.
[00:15:11] me: Oh, I thought it was like an acronym for something
that was
[00:15:13] kristen: so easy.
Victoria. You can do it in your life. You can do it with business, you can do it with a lot.
We tend to surface level problem solve.
[00:15:21] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:21] kristen: So we'll say, you know, well, why was Victoria late? Well, her tire was flat. Okay, so we'll get a new tire. But if you actually then get into asking a why a couple times, well, why was her tire flat?
[00:15:35] me: Right?
[00:15:36] kristen: Well, she's having a hard time at working and isn't getting paid enough. Well, why is he hasn't
been able to fix her.
[00:15:42] me: Yes.
[00:15:42] kristen: Do you see what I'm saying?
[00:15:43] me: The
under layer problem,
[00:15:44] kristen: if you go to the five, you get into the, you don't need to go further than the five. No. Because most likely then you've hit the root cause.
It's not difficult. It's just taking,
[00:15:51] me: it's
digging deeper.
[00:15:52] kristen: It's just taking,
[00:15:53] me: why is that so?
Yes,
[00:15:54] kristen: it's taking time.
[00:15:56] me: Yeah.
[00:15:56] kristen: Because our society has moved. And also too, we are under this assumption we don't have enough time. And some of that is true.
But when you look at how quickly things happen and this chain reaction, and one of the things that bothers me the most about the discipline part
[00:16:11] me: Yeah.
[00:16:11] kristen: Is we don't loop in the parent in a way that's meaningful. And then again, especially at high school, it's also blown my mind where I'm like, these aren't adults, they're still kids, and I understand we have to treat them like adults.
[00:16:27] me: Yeah.
[00:16:27] kristen: But, um, yeah, so that, uh, I can go on and on, but we, it's the narrative and then, I mean, think about the difference. If we're telling a child, you know, we understand you struggle, but you're gonna be, we we're gonna help you be successful.
[00:16:42] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:43] kristen: We are, we're gonna hit them with different words. Right.
We're going to infiltrate their way of thinking in a different way. Maybe we're gonna give them some therapy.
[00:16:51] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:52] kristen: Maybe we're going to show them that anger is not the first reaction. But you can't get there if you don't know who you're really dealing with. And if it's just a another thing you're doing and you're going to the next kid, I gotta get, I gotta get to this one, I gotta get to this one.
I gotta finish my task.
[00:17:06] me: Yep.
[00:17:06] kristen: You've missed the whole, in my opinion, the whole reason why we do what we do is, which is to make humans better, period.
[00:17:13] me: Yep. And that brings me to, when you say looking at a bigger picture is the five why's, understanding why a kid is acting a certain way. I think of um
[00:17:21] kristen: mm-hmm.
[00:17:22] me: You know, that student, because remember when we discovered, okay, this kid has not only a reading level of like a first grade second grader.
[00:17:31] kristen: Yeah.
[00:17:31] me: Okay. That explains why he's not doing the work, why he's skipping class.
[00:17:37] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:37] me: And you know, just so many things. I feel like a lot of the teachers would pass him along and dismiss him because they already had this, uncon this.
[00:17:47] kristen: Exactly.
[00:17:48] me: bias.
[00:17:48] kristen: they go back to, well, he's never gonna graduate. They put this story around who he could end up being
[00:17:54] me: part. That part. Yeah.
[00:17:55] kristen: And instead of looking at it going, dang man, he like something. My mom, you could be something my mom said to me, that's always stuck with me. Yeah. She goes, Kristen, how many people, the first, how many kids the first week of school get suspended?
None.
[00:18:09] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:10] Students and self-schema
---
[00:18:10] kristen: Because they come to school with hope and they think that it's gonna be different for them. So they put that backpack on and they get here that first week.
[00:18:18] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:19] kristen: Right?
[00:18:19] me: Yeah.
[00:18:20] kristen: And then it slowly erodes because the other things come. And then that student that we both understand
[00:18:25] me: chips away at them.
[00:18:27] kristen: Yes.
[00:18:27] me: The little things that happen.
[00:18:28] kristen: And instead of meeting him saying, gosh, man, like he's, this is really probably hard for him and adjusting yourself. You, we just, not everyone, but the door gets shut.
[00:18:38] me: Yeah.
[00:18:39] kristen: And it's like, you don't belong. And then that alone, like, because with the embarrassment and, and those are fundamental things.
You don't feel like you're enough when you're sitting in something and you, you know, whatever. You don't feel like you belong. Yeah,
you
are most likely. Also, what's blows my mind too is I, 'cause I've stood in the hallway and I've had teachers say to a student, I don't want, I don't even wanna deal with you today.
Don't even come into my classroom.
[00:19:05] me: And then it sets 'em up for failure because then they're skipping and then guess what? That adds another, um,
[00:19:10] kristen: well,
Victoria, what does that say?
[00:19:12] me: Right. You're not,
[00:19:13] kristen: you're
not a good enough human, so you can't come in, you can't come sit in my circle. Do
you know what that does to a child?
[00:19:19] me: Like mentally
[00:19:21] kristen: what it does to anybody?
[00:19:21] me: Emotional self-esteem. Yeah. But like a growing boy who's like, first of all, their development has not even fully developed. Their schema is already most likely, excuse my language. Fucked up.
[00:19:32] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:33] me: And you're here adding onto it. And this isn't like elementary or middle.
[00:19:36] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:37] me: They are now, you know, coming towards the end of adolescence.
[00:19:40] kristen: That's right.
[00:19:40] me: Where they get to make these final decisions about themselves, who they are, what they're gonna contribute in the world. And then yeah. That school to prison pipeline. Okay. Well I was, I wasn't shit in high school, so I'm not gonna be shit in this society.
I'm just gonna give you exactly what, what you expect of me. And it's like, you're right, it's disproportionate.
[00:19:58] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:58] me: Consequences.
[00:19:59] School-Prison Pipeline & Institutionalized Racism
---
[00:19:59] kristen: Yes.
[00:19:59] me: Now I did do a little research.
[00:20:03] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:03] me: And the shit blew my mind. We know that the zero tolerance policy is often used to push or dismiss students deemed as challenging.
[00:20:10] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:10] me: You know, our special example. And so the system's gonna fail 'em anyway. But what that also results to is unequal outcomes.
[00:20:17] kristen: Right.
[00:20:17] me: So significant increase. So once you're suspended, once bound to happen again and again and again because you are already a frequent flyer as like they like to say, or a walking red flag.
Um. The chances for expulsions in law enforcement referrals, often for minor offenses, two times black and brown kids, two times likely to get, is two and a half times likely to get off school suspension.
[00:20:42] kristen: Yep.
[00:20:42] me: Three times more likely to be arrested and two times more likely to be charged as an adult believe when they're arrested.
[00:20:48] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:49] me: And we've seen that.
[00:20:50] kristen: Yep.
[00:20:50] me: We've seen that happen
[00:20:51] kristen: and it's, so I'll give you a story quick one.
[00:20:54] me: Yeah.
[00:20:55] kristen: When I was in high school, I actually got jumped here at this school.
[00:20:59] me: At this school?
[00:21:00] kristen: At this school. So yeah, I got jumped right out in the right out at the softball field.
[00:21:04] me: Oh my
God.
[00:21:05] kristen: Um, yeah. But let me show, let me tell you why. And it wasn't until just recently when I was telling the story and I was like, oh my god. Where my white privilege. I was like, wow, this is like, okay, this, this is real. Right?
[00:21:16] me: Yeah.
[00:21:17] kristen: We're not real. I've known it's real, but it was a moment where I had a self-reflection moment where I was like, I saw it.
[00:21:23] me: You
saw it in real time.
[00:21:24] kristen: Well, I experienced it. Yeah. So when, what happened? I won't get into the details of what happened, why and all that. Off the record, I will, but because it's actually really interesting story.
[00:21:34] me: Yeah. I wanna know. Yeah.
[00:21:35] kristen: But I never hit the girl, but the girl got beat up by my teammates.
[00:21:40] me: Yeah.
[00:21:41] kristen: I couldn't hit her. I was in my car. Like I couldn't get out. And I, I don't even know if I would've hit her. 'cause I don't, I, that was the first time I've ever got like physically like, fought like that.
[00:21:48] me: Yeah.
[00:21:49] kristen: She got suspended. We never did. Oh, she was Hispanic. We were a bunch of white girls.
[00:21:57] me: Oh no.
[00:21:58] kristen: She went to Springs.
We went to Stoneman. And so if you don't see,
[00:22:03] me: you can see it right there.
[00:22:04] kristen: Right. And so that's an example where I was protected.
[00:22:09] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:10] kristen: Because I had all this, this, my dad was the teacher. I was protected and she wasn't.
[00:22:15] me: Yeah.
[00:22:15] kristen: And I don't know what happened to that girl, obviously, but like, that's just, it was a moment where I'm like, oh my God.
[00:22:21] me: Yeah.
[00:22:22] kristen: Where someone, and I remember the administrator came and my dad's like, well, you're not gonna get suspended, Kristen.
[00:22:27] me: Yeah.
[00:22:27] kristen: I should have gotten suspended. Yeah. I provoked the fight.
[00:22:30] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:31] kristen: I was a hundred percent, one of the many. There was a bunch of us, we all should have gotten in trouble. Nothing happened.
[00:22:37] me: Yeah.
[00:22:38] kristen: And she got suspended like eight days, whatever. Yeah.
[00:22:42] me: That is crazy.
That's, that's
systemic racism. That's institutionalized racism.
[00:22:47] kristen: And you see it and then it's, it's, it's like again, the narrative of what we think. It's just, it's,
[00:22:59] me: it's what's normalized.
[00:23:00] kristen: Yes.
[00:23:00] me: It's what's embedded.
[00:23:02] kristen: Yeah. And a lot
[00:23:03] me: embedded in our society.
[00:23:04] kristen: Think about it like this, when you turn on the news and when it was brought to my attention by reading Right. And then I was like, whoa, I see it. When you watch the news, they disproportionately will picture people of color
[00:23:17] me: Yeah.
[00:23:18] kristen: That have gotten arrested.
[00:23:18] me: Yeah. It's the representation versus the under representation.
[00:23:21] kristen: What are you seeing when you have the news on your kids are eating or maybe they're getting their snacks. Yeah. And you see on the news, oh look, that's another it. Oh.
[00:23:31] me: And I tell my parents, don't watch the news anymore.
[00:23:32] kristen: Right.
[00:23:32] me: 'cause you just, at this point, every station is biased.
And we'll give you whatever they want to give you. It's,
[00:23:41] kristen: but when you, but again, it's that systemic storyline. For it to change mm-hmm. You have to have change agents like yourself, like myself and others that are willing to come up and say, but, and there are many of us that are like collectively coming and saying, you know, that's actually not okay and
this
is not something that
[00:23:57] Leaders: Powering Through You vs Over You
---
[00:23:57] me: You try to do that Right.
With the head honcho big cheese. Yeah, I know. Because that's the guy who you wanna talk to. And you're hoping that the leaders in charge will, will kind of guide you and help pave way to help you make a difference. But at the end of the day, depending on who is in charge and what their real purpose is, whether that's to serve themselves or their image, or whether that's to really help move a school in a different direction, that really depends on what you're, what change is really going to take place now.
[00:24:23] kristen: Ooh, that's, oh, that's, I hear you.
[00:24:25] me: And
I'm dealing with that.
[00:24:26] kristen: And I hear you,
[00:24:27] me: and I feel like you've seen it. I've personally gone toe to toe with, um, you know, our principal, just because I feel like he doesn't necessarily always, I won't say ever, but just doesn't always, from what I've seen, or at least personally with my students, especially with
[00:24:41] kristen: mm-hmm.
[00:24:41] me: You know, did not meet them where they were at. Failed to see the bigger picture did not include me in meetings. You know, there were so many times I had to be like, knock at the door, what's going on here? Like, why are we not following due process? And that, wouldn't you think that that student who did have an IEP
[00:24:56] kristen: mm-hmm.
[00:24:56] me: You are due to follow more
[00:24:58] kristen: mm-hmm.
[00:24:59] me: Due process.
[00:24:59] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:59] me: And you try to overstep that. Not once, but a couple times and I just, that's when I started to see, okay, so this is really just a push out system
[00:25:10] kristen: because when people get power and when they become, so it's like when. Sometimes we have leaders for reasons.
Even if we're, if it doesn't jive with you, they're here to,
[00:25:21] me: or appointed leaders.
[00:25:22] kristen: Right.
Right.
[00:25:23] me: Who, yeah. We still don't know how you got here.
[00:25:25] kristen: True. True.
Um,
but no, but it's also it's what you just said, and it's the leader in front of you. When they get to that leadership position, you actually don't know what's gonna happen.
Are they going,
[00:25:39] me: we don't.
[00:25:39] kristen: Are they going to take the power they now have? And is that power going to be, I'm gonna power through you. I'm gonna teach, I'm gonna empower you.
[00:25:48] me: You, that's such a good Yes.
[00:25:49] kristen: Instead of power over you. And when I've experienced with leaders,
[00:25:54] me: that is the kick. Yeah.
[00:25:54] kristen: Especially this one that we're referring to. When the moment of power over started to happen, that's when my red flag went up.
[00:26:02] me: Yes.
[00:26:02] kristen: And I was like, oh,
[00:26:03] me: baby,
you're not here to serve.
[00:26:05] kristen: You're not here to serve
[00:26:06] me: here to serve yourself.
[00:26:07] kristen: Yeah. This is ego. This is not,
About what it looks like because sometimes progress or things have to, like, it might look messy, but it could be beautiful.
[00:26:20] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:21] kristen: Those two things can be true. You have to sometimes fall, have things have to fall apart sometimes for better things to be put back together. I fundamentally believe that it
[00:26:30] me: gets worse before it gets better. Right. Always
[00:26:32] kristen: beautiful things happen in destruction. Life happens. Right. Sometimes it has to be burnt down and some people's approach to it could be whatever they choose to do, but.
It's fascinating when I, 'cause I've worked with incredible leaders. Mm-hmm. And I also have to say like, in that moment I've also seen their flaws.
Yeah.
But when you have leaders that are coming whose intentions
are good Correct.
And are literally looking at it like, I'm not trying to power over you. I'm actually power through you.
[00:27:04] me: I like
that a lot.
[00:27:05] kristen: That's Renee Brown. I, that's really listening to her and understanding that and then experiencing it and then having these moments where I can go back and
[00:27:16] me: yeah.
[00:27:16] kristen: Go, wow man, I've had some really incredible leaders and even my moments where I've had to check myself to be like, in this moment, am I showing up because I feel like I can have power over this person?
[00:27:26] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:27] kristen: Or can I empower them in a different direction? And that is. You know, it's hard. 'cause
[00:27:33] me: do you feel that way now, being the ESE specialist this year going from, 'cause you
[00:27:37] kristen: have power over,
[00:27:38] me: like taking on this position.
[00:27:39] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:40] me: Because now yeah, you are, you are the face of ESE. Yeah. Um, and you do have a lot of great strong women who work alongside you.
[00:27:46] kristen: I do.
[00:27:46] me: And they're powerhouses. Like you have the team.
[00:27:49] kristen: They are,
[00:27:49] me: I envy you and you guys work great together.
[00:27:52] kristen: They
are.
Thank you.
[00:27:52] me: So did you feel a shift like that? Like the, when you're talking about power, I, I want to empower you
[00:27:58] kristen: Yes.
[00:27:59] me: But not be over you.
[00:28:00] kristen: Okay. So
[00:28:00] me: how did you do that?
[00:28:01] kristen: Oh yeah. So my first messaging to everyone was, I'm your colleague.
I'm not your boss, I'm your teammate. Because I, and this is a fundamental thing that it's why I believe in sports so much and
[00:28:13] me: yeah.
[00:28:13] kristen: I've learned to be a good teammate. I've learned to be a good. Participant in groups.
[00:28:18] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:18] kristen: And that's something where I, I, I do better in that role. I can be a captain, but I also really enjoy being a teammate. And so I approached coming into my role as ESE specialist, as I am just your colleague. And that what I wanted to do was empower them in a way so I could try to problem solve with them.
[00:28:43] me: Right.
[00:28:43] kristen: Um, but also remind them, like, remind them of their why. Remind them, when they have these moments that they get really stressed out because they think that I'm gonna come, or there's this like, bad person, like this big district coming. I'm like, slow down. Take a breath.
[00:29:00] me: Nobody's coming.
[00:29:00] kristen: No one's coming. There's no educational. Literally show me the educational jail that we're gonna go to.
[00:29:07] me: I often, I still feel that way 'cause it's my imposter syndrome. So I feel like there's always someone coming to be like, Hey, fired, get out. So I'm like, okay. But I think about it, it's like, no dude, you're like the only if one, if anything, the only one showing up to do your job to the fullest.
[00:29:24] kristen: Yeah.
[00:29:25] me: Not the best 'cause I'm the, I'm the novice level, but it's the best I can do.
[00:29:28] kristen: That's also what I try to say to him.
[00:29:30] me: Yeah.
[00:29:30] kristen: I'm like, are you doing the best you can today? They're like, yeah. I'm like, awesome.
[00:29:33] me: Kristen, for Prez come on.
[00:29:35] kristen: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:29:36] me: Come
on dude.
[00:29:37] kristen: No.
[00:29:37] me: All right.
Question.
[00:29:38] kristen: Yeah.
[00:29:39] Charter schools & Modern Segregation
---
[00:29:39] me: Public school experience versus the private or charter school experience? I have yet to work in private or charter and I don't know if I ever will or if I will prefer it, but I wanna know. 'cause you have worked in the charter
[00:29:50] kristen: now I didn't. I didn't work in the charter, but I've trained charter.
[00:29:53] me: Okay.
[00:29:54] kristen: Um, but I also have a lot of feel for this, so I believe that charter schools and the private school and what we're seeing in the public school system in Florida
[00:30:02] me: mm-hmm.
[00:30:02] kristen: Is modern. It's modern segregation.
[00:30:04] me: Yes.
[00:30:05] kristen: So segregation just kind of wrapped into something new. Um, if you don't see it, just come to our area and see our charter school versus our public school.
[00:30:13] me: Right. I haven't that foot in a charter school, so I don't even know what that looks like.
[00:30:16] kristen: Oh, you don't even have to go and see what it looks like on the inside's.
Just look at the demographics.
[00:30:21] me: Oh, okay.
[00:30:22] kristen: Look what a charter school, because what is happening with school choice, right.
[00:30:27] me: School choice for anyone who doesn't know is a voucher. Oh. You can literally go to any school in the district, even if it's outta boundaries, even if it's a magnet school.
[00:30:34] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:34] me: Private, whatever.
[00:30:35] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:36] me: It's like your voucher to be like, yep, I'm going there.
[00:30:38] kristen: Which part of me, I, I, part of me sees the beauty in it, and part of me is like,
Because of what we're seeing, which is so interesting because these kids play together on the same teams and the same playgrounds.
[00:30:49] me: Right.
[00:30:50] kristen: But then we have them going to different schools because I don't want my child to go there for whatever reason.
[00:30:56] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:56] kristen: Now, and at the end of the day, no offense to anyone listening, it's really not the school. It comes down to the teachers you end up getting within the school, and there's usually a lot of really great teachers and good things happening, so,
[00:31:06] me: right.
[00:31:07] kristen: What you see, charter schools and private schools can sell themselves on this idea
[00:31:14] me: mm-hmm.
[00:31:15] kristen: Of something better fundamentally.
[00:31:18] me: Yeah.
[00:31:18] kristen: So charter schools and private schools, what they're able to do is cherry pick.
[00:31:22] me: Yeah.
[00:31:23] kristen: And so, 'cause you can cherry pick and you can say, well, you're a level three, we'll take you.
[00:31:28] me: Oh, they get to choose who?
[00:31:29] kristen: Yes. They choose. So even though on a school choice, you can, most of the school choice typically
[00:31:36] me: gets you in,
[00:31:38] kristen: typically some of the private schools, well, they're gonna also take these kids 'cause they have their money.
So, and, this is like getting into deeps, but like, it's a funding thing. So these
[00:31:47] me: Oh yeah.
[00:31:48] kristen: Parents are literally getting money.
[00:31:50] me: Yeah.
[00:31:50] kristen: Um, that are, now this is an ESE, let's use an ESE scenario.
[00:31:55] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:55] kristen: So they get funded, like Florida does this thing where they call a matrix. And so like a different funding model, they get funded with this like middle number of a 2 53.
So they get a lot of money to go. Um, they're most likely if they're in the public school system, would, they would actually generate less money for the public school.
[00:32:14] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:15] kristen: So, you know, if we wonder where's our money going? Well if all these kids are jumping out to go to charter schools, all this extra money has to then be supplied for that or the PR private school.
Yeah. So that chunk of money, well that disappears and goes away.
[00:32:28] me: Yeah.
[00:32:29] kristen: And they're not really, they don't really generate that money from the financial like aspect of how Florida finances kids
[00:32:36] me: school bells, early release.
Yay.
[00:32:38] kristen: So what you're seeing is it's a money grab from a business standpoint. It's super smart on the private school and the charter school side, the public schools can't keep up because we are left with whatever is left over.
It's just sad.
[00:32:52] me: So for every kid we lose, they're gaining money.
[00:32:56] kristen: Correct. And they gain more money.
[00:32:57] me: Yeah.
[00:32:57] kristen: So if the kid was like to come, let's just use like a thousand dollars. So you're, you're a typical kid, right? I'm using ESE world, but let's say you're a kid, you got a learning disability, alright? So our school gets the a thousand dollars for you.
But if you go to the charter school, the private school, you're gonna get $3,000.
[00:33:15] me: Jesus,
[00:33:15] kristen: us. So who makes up that money? The taxpayers Us. So that money that ends up getting, they end up getting more money,
but
not, it's like, it's really sad.
[00:33:24] me: It's so sad. It's sad. I didn't even, I didn't know it to be like that.
Honest.
[00:33:27] kristen: But if you also then look at the demographics of who gets, and, and don't get me wrong, there's these schools everywhere and that's the other part where it's made. I remember when I had to drop off supplies or like training supplies to a couple charter schools.
[00:33:41] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:41] kristen: I think what I've realized was like, oh my God, these aren't even like your brick and mortar schools.
These are kids going to school like at a shopping plaza.
[00:33:49] me: Yeah.
[00:33:49] kristen: What does that say about going to school? And now I could be wrong and these kids probably are so unaware and there it goes. My bias coming to saying
[00:33:57] me: mm-hmm.
[00:33:57] kristen: That school should have a playground and have opportunities. That's just maybe my ideal utopia world.
[00:34:03] me: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:04] kristen: And I was kind of like taken back by that. The other thing that happens too is these kid people go to these charter schools and then they find out it's a bunch of crap.
[00:34:13] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:14] kristen: This, all this stuff that they,
'cause they're a business. The flyer, they give you the pitch, the marketing. Oh,
[00:34:20] me: market market.
[00:34:20] kristen: But then when you get down into it, they're not held to the same standards. We are in the public school system. And the IEP world, half the time, they don't Implement the IEP private schools- you don't, you lose your IEP becomes a private school service plan.
So these parents think it's gonna be better on the other side. My kid's gonna be better. Right, Oh, they're, they're gonna do this. They get there and they're like, oh my God, it's not better. It's worse. And now it's just a rotating cycle. But it's, it's modern segregation because of just, at least where we're at.
[00:34:50] me: Yeah.
[00:34:50] kristen: Yeah.
Because if you just look at demographics
[00:34:52] me: Yeah.
[00:34:52] kristen: Victoria, you do not need to step on that, that campus come to a basketball game.
[00:34:57] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:58] kristen: And just step back and look.
[00:34:59] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:59] kristen: Watch their cheerleading team when you're like, whoa.
[00:35:03] me: The charters or the publics
[00:35:04] kristen: the charter.
Look at the demographics and you can see how it's just blatant.
[00:35:10] me: Yeah. That's crazy
[00:35:13] kristen: Sad.
[00:35:14] me: Okay. Speaking of creating disparities.
[00:35:16] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:16] me: We're on a roll here.
[00:35:17] kristen: Yeah.
[00:35:17] Disparities in low SES kids
---
[00:35:17] me: Okay. Lower socially economic status students.
[00:35:21] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:22] me: And the differences that they make. Also something that gets overlooked.
[00:35:24] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:26] me: Why did this kid not turn in their stuff late? I don't know. Were they sleeping? This brings back to the five why's. I'm gonna start saying that.
[00:35:32] kristen: Yes.
[00:35:32] me: Start
asking the five why's and gonna start asking that at the conferences.
Like, all right, let's dig into the five why's: Why are you handing this in late? Oh, 'cause uh, I didn't get to do it. I was sleeping all class. Why were you sleeping? All class. I didn't get enough sleep last night. Why didn't you get enough sleep last night? There you go. Thank you. Oh, I was taking care of my baby brother.
'cause my mom had to be bartend.
[00:35:48] kristen: Thank you.
[00:35:48] me: And make rent.
[00:35:49] kristen: Thank you.
[00:35:49] me: Right.
[00:35:49] kristen: And now you know the why.
[00:35:51] me: Mmkay.
[00:35:51] kristen: So, and now, you know,
[00:35:52] me: can we get back to the root of the issue and where can we, I'm gonna start doing that.
[00:35:57] kristen: I'm telling
you.
[00:35:57] me: Oh my God, my next year.
There you go. Five.
[00:35:59] kristen: There you go.
Five why's.
[00:36:00] me: It's not too late to do it, but like, it's fourth quarter, so it's like you every year learn something to implement for the next year.
You're like, okay,
[00:36:06] kristen: that's right.
[00:36:07] me: And this is where you learn and evolve, but yes. Okay. Um, lower SES students facing more stress, fewer resources. Mm-hmm. Why are they late? Why are we painting kids being late past 7 45? Dude, they can't even get themselves to wake up. Their parents are working overnights, can't even wake up themselves.
Right. Do they have a transportation? Does the bus go there? Does the parents eat? Do they eat? Do their parents have, uh, functioning wheels?
[00:36:30] kristen: Right?
[00:36:31] me: I mean,
And, okay. School choice. A kid is on school choice.
[00:36:34] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:35] me: Coming from Fort Lauderdale. They know they don't, half these parents don't understand or don't recognize that it doesn't come with transportation.
So what ends up happening is they end up withdrawing because it's like, I can't even get my kid to school, can get my
kid here.
[00:36:47] kristen: Right.
[00:36:47] me: So what is the school choice really doing?
[00:36:49] kristen: It's just creating more chaos. It's, it is literally, I think that was the plan.
[00:36:54] me: Yeah. I do too. I do,
I do.
I I hate it here,
[00:36:57] kristen: but, but we're here.
Yeah. And we're doing a damn good job. So the socioeconomic status.
[00:37:04] me: Yes.
[00:37:06] kristen: It's interesting, like, we're humans, so if they're not getting things
[00:37:14] me: mm-hmm.
[00:37:14] kristen: Right from home, then they're gonna try to get it here. Whether it's attention, whether it's love, affection, food, um, stealing, um, whatever.
What I find to be interesting and it, it's, I'm more comfortable for whatever reason in a, a lower socioeconomic school like ours.
[00:37:35] me: Yes. And
[00:37:36] kristen: then I would most likely be at a different school.
[00:37:39] me: Yes.
[00:37:40] kristen: Because there's kindness, there's love, and there's some incredible things. But what we also see and experience are these kids that are coming in with so much baggage that sometimes they just need somebody to sit with them.
[00:37:56] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:57] kristen: And say, Hey, do you need a, do you need a banana?
[00:38:01] me: Yep.
[00:38:02] kristen: You know, um, hey, I, you know, I noticed your clothes are a little dirty. Do you want wanna go get you an extra pair and we can go ahead and and wash those?
[00:38:08] me: Yeah.
[00:38:08] kristen: And treat them like they're human.
[00:38:10] me: Yes.
[00:38:11] kristen: Because in the bigger scheme of everything,
[00:38:13] me: They already don't wanna be here.
[00:38:14] kristen: Correct.
But to be quite honest, the way that our schools operate can, are we even the right spot to take in a human? That's got so much going on that, and I brought this up at the leadership meeting the other day. I said, again, the shutting of the door. You know, you are trying so hard to get here. Mm-hmm. And in that effort, the door gets shut because no one wants to hear why. So now you, you don't belong. And then because you are not eating at, at home or you, your parents are, you're by yourself.
You're lonely, you, your face is, you in your phone if you even have a phone, right? Like all these things. Then we wonder where like the social, like isolation starts.
[00:38:58] me: Well, this impacts the social impact. Of course, they don't have energy to make friends.
[00:39:02] kristen: They don't wanna come,
[00:39:03] me: they don't wanna come.
They don't even trust an individuals to care enough.
[00:39:06] kristen: I think they come here thinking that school will be someone.
[00:39:10] me: More people care.
[00:39:11] kristen: Well someone will welcome them.
[00:39:12] me: Yeah.
[00:39:13] kristen: And there are those. Yeah, we are here, there's, there are us that do welcome, it's getting through the door, and if they can't get through the door, then it's just that repetitive, you're not good enough, you're not rich enough, you're not smart enough.
And that not being enough then impacts them. And now we're just feeding into that story.
[00:39:31] me: Okay, so sorry to cut you off, but this was an idea. Like, what about those kids? The ones that are, um, habitually in I.S. the first, you know, because they're have like reoccurring tardies.
[00:39:42] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:42] me: You know what I mean? Instead of sticking 'em in I.S., where they don't do shit anyway, Why can't, someone push in or at least
[00:39:51] kristen: mm-hmm.
[00:39:51] me: We can start mentoring those groups
[00:39:52] kristen: mm-hmm.
[00:39:52] me: And be like, okay, why are we coming late?
[00:39:54] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:54] me: Let's dig deeper. How can we help assist these kids so that we can relieve these unnecessary tardies?
Or whatever that, I mean, I.S. you know, just
[00:40:04] kristen: half the WHY is that they just literally, literally can't read.
[00:40:10] me: Yeah.
[00:40:11] kristen: And they can't write. Or they can't sit still.
Yeah.
One of our colleagues proposed, well, you know, "make I.S. miserable".
Make it, make it where, you know, put the desk this way. I'm like, wait a minute, misery finds company. Like, you think that that's gonna make them not wanna do it. They're still gonna, they're still gonna navigate there.
[00:40:32] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:32] kristen: Because the underlining issue is why are they having these repetitive behaviors?
Make it where perhaps. You have some teachers, and I'm sure there's some of us that either a, would be willing to take on,
[00:40:45] me: I'm not saying it's everyone, but there's a good, there's a good chunk of us that is willing to push in and help. You
know
what I mean?
[00:40:49] kristen: Right.
But then you gotta carve out the time and you gotta have , the thought. Right. The, the leaders that have that, that think tank to say, this isn't working, what can we do instead? And then also the creativity.
[00:41:02] me: Have you talked about that too? Head honcho, big cheese,
like that, that
idea in particular because that's,
[00:41:07] kristen: so I, my idea to that was actually saying perhaps we need to stop pushing and thinking that kids can sit in 90 minutes of a classroom and think about a different model that maybe, perhaps you do like 60 minutes and then like 30 minutes of movement.
We don't move here. I know there's no yoga, there's no dance there. Nothing.
[00:41:31] We're being conditioned..
---
[00:41:31] me: Also school to prison pipeline. Nothing. They train you because this is an institution,
[00:41:34] kristen: this is, this is a prison.
[00:41:35] me: They teach you two walk in line bathroom breaks.
[00:41:37] kristen: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:37] me: Three strikes penalty.
[00:41:39] kristen: Yep.
[00:41:39] me: You get I.S. you get you, you know what I mean?
It's just. The, and it's like these, these lights. Yeah. We don't even have, half of these classrooms don't have windows. Like
[00:41:47] kristen: That's right.
[00:41:48] me: I mean, I don't even have a window. It just feels like a jail cell. It's, there's no, the bathrooms are disg-
[00:41:52] kristen: It it, if we don't think that we're slightly living in a, in a prison system, we are a hundred percent living in a prison system.
[00:41:59] me: Yes, yes,
yes.
[00:42:00] kristen: To condition you to fall in line work your nine to five.
Yes.
Don't ask questions. It's a system.
[00:42:07] me: You're hitting it. That's what I'm telling you. Also, yeah. Being that this is a school prison pipeline, black and brown students with disabilities, those are the kids that have a more likelihood to end up in the criminal justice system.
[00:42:24] kristen: That's right.
[00:42:24] me: And that sucks because it's like they just. Weren't met as a kid or as a teen. And so it's like this is the result. And like I was telling my friend, she's like, I don't know if there's an alternative to the zero tolerance system, although there should be, we had a hard time figuring out like, well, what, what can we do?
You know?
Right.
So I feel like first is the five whys. That's why
[00:42:44] kristen: I, I think what's gonna, what I hope is that potentially in this charter school, private school movement, there's gonna be people that are gonna step up to the, the moment to say, well, perhaps maybe I'll start my own school.
[00:42:59] me: Oh, yeah.
[00:43:00] kristen: And. Most likely these micro schools of learning communities are gonna have to happen. Um,
[00:43:07] me: are they successful? Do you know like micro schools that are
[00:43:10] kristen: actually Yeah, so there's this really cool school in, um, I think it's in Springs. It's um, it's called like study lab or something like that.
[00:43:17] me: Yeah.
[00:43:17] kristen: Where she only has them for like four hours and then they do other things. Um,
[00:43:23] me: because that's
all you need, man.
[00:43:24] kristen: That's, that's all you need.
[00:43:25] me: Eight hours of just
90 minute instruction and then you, we don't want them to
move in their
study hall? Is that
realistic?
[00:43:31] kristen: We're being conditioned.
[00:43:32] me: Oh
God.
[00:43:33] kristen: I don't dunno what the alternative is going to look like, but what I do know for certain is that sitting in this and being a part of it makes me feel like this isn't this, I just don't feel right. And I, I know I have a purpose and it, it is to see people and to be present and I'm doing all of that.
But my goodness, the weight of being in a system that when you realize you're like,
[00:43:57] me: it's jading.
[00:43:57] kristen: Yeah. Man.
[00:43:58] me: It's taxing.
[00:43:59] kristen: Yeah.
[00:43:59] me: Chips at you.
[00:44:00] kristen: Yes.
[00:44:01] me: Makes you not wanna do
it.
[00:44:01] kristen: Yeah, because you, you look at it and it's like, it feels heavy. It feels really, and
[00:44:06] me: then it feels like it's you in this giant hill.
And it's just like,
[00:44:09] kristen: yeah, I don't know. I'm gonna get up that one.
[00:44:13] me: I don't,
[00:44:13] kristen: with all this luggage and all this stuff.
[00:44:16] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:16] kristen: The only way the pipeline changes is if we create our own, like alternative ways of getting around like the system until it breaks.
Yeah. It's gonna break, I hope.
[00:44:31] me: Yeah.
[00:44:32] Communities > Institutions
---
[00:44:32] kristen: And I don't know if that's also what we're experiencing Florida.
'Cause Massachusetts is not, they are not structured like this. And I, and I will bring this up. I'll give you, this is something, you know, I'm, I disclosed to you that I'm like passionate about, um, when children experience mental health issues in massachusetts and they are hospitalized, they are supported and they're integrated back into their school community. And that's the other thing, if we actually thought of schools as communities, I think we would actually do a little bit better. But anyways,
[00:45:00] me: it's true.
[00:45:00] kristen: There is an integration in a support system.
[00:45:02] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:03] kristen: That does not happen here. A child gets hospitalized, they're thrown back into what they literally like, oh, you're going right back into that.
[00:45:11] me: Yeah.
[00:45:12] kristen: And there's no integration.
[00:45:13] me: Nope.
[00:45:13] kristen: And there's no
[00:45:14] me: conditioning,
[00:45:14] kristen: nothing,
[00:45:15] me: no transition, nothing.
[00:45:16] kristen: There's no there, there's no conversations. Really.
Sometimes people don't even know that this child,
[00:45:20] me: how do you prepare them for the real world. You know what I mean?
[00:45:22] kristen: Think about it. Think about it.
How many kids come back from being hospitalized and we don't even tell the teachers, Hey, this child just spent like, you know, 72 hours getting evaluated. Which is, mind blowing.
So it's, it's not just the behaviors. Yeah. It's the overall system where we're stick, we're trying no
[00:45:39] me: Right. Not enough People to do it. Not enough compensation. People are burnt out.
[00:45:43] kristen: And I do feel for education leaders, when you inherit people that. Ideally maybe you wouldn't wanna work with,
[00:45:52] me: or like,
[00:45:52] kristen: and that's hard-
[00:45:53] me: Appointed people in the district.
[00:45:54] kristen: Correct.
[00:45:54] me: That's also like, hello?
[00:45:56] kristen: That's hard. And sometimes we like to appoint our friends.
[00:45:58] me: Yeah.
[00:45:58] kristen: That might not be the best person.
[00:45:59] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:00] kristen: And that that was actually something that brought up. Um, because I had business experience and I know that.
[00:46:04] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:05] kristen: You
know, I wasn't always the best person for the job.
[00:46:07] me: Yeah.
[00:46:07] kristen: And that's okay.
But in education it feels like that you can't have that conversation.
It's about your friend who's the nicest
[00:46:16] me: mm-hmm.
[00:46:16] kristen: The, um, good boy club. I remember. That was actually something, one of my motivations back when I was at Taravella
[00:46:22] me: mm-hmm.
[00:46:23] kristen: Was to
be at the youngest female principal in Broward County. That was my goal.
[00:46:25] me: Ooh.
[00:46:26] kristen: And I was on that track until I halted and said, what, what is
happening?
Right. But that also there, there's other things that.
[00:46:34] me: Do you think about opening your own school? You should a mini school and be the, be the principal.
[00:46:39] kristen: You're like
the, like the third person that said that.
Um,
[00:46:42] me: just let me know and recruit me. Yeah. We'll work together.
[00:46:44] kristen: Right? No, I, I've had like, I have like a whole staff already to go because maybe we would do a good job, Victoria.
[00:46:50] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:50] kristen: Maybe you do start small. Maybe you do take, and that's the part of, and it was something that a colleague said of ours yesterday.
You know, it's this fear that we're not enough and that we wouldn't be able to get it done.
[00:47:02] me: The imposters are like, who are we to?
Why can't we,
[00:47:04] kristen: who are we Not? Exactly.
[00:47:06] me: Yeah.
[00:47:07] kristen: You know, actually there was an affirmation thing. 'cause I used to, uh, you know, I, I still say it like, I'm strong, I'm safe. Um, and this woman presented it and she goes, well, what if you say like, what if, what if I'm strong?
What if I'm safe? And you show up like that.
[00:47:21] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:22] kristen: How, how empowering is that in a different way?
[00:47:24] me: It's
like glass half full versus glass.
[00:47:26] kristen: Right, right.
We're just also looking at it. It creates the room for possibilities.
[00:47:29] me: Yeah.
[00:47:30] kristen: And then for me, from somebody that, that's like creative or like likes, thinks she's creative, I can go and open up realms of possibilities. So would I open up my own school? Damn man, that would be, that would be awesome.
[00:47:43] me: In Florida, or not? In Florida?
[00:47:44] kristen: Ooh. Hmm.
[00:47:47] me: Because you're not from Florida originally?
[00:47:48] kristen: No, I'm from Pennsylvania. Um, I think my time in Florida, I like have this like sick thing where I kind of like it down here. I don't like South Florida.
[00:47:59] Grass greener on the other side?
---
[00:47:59] kristen: But, but there's a part where sometimes, , I have these moments, is the grass greener on the other side?
[00:48:03] me: Right.
[00:48:03] kristen: Right.
Or can I make my home a lot better?
[00:48:05] me: Is it greener when I water it? Right. I know.
[00:48:08] kristen: But y you know, you do outlive stuff.
[00:48:12] me: You do outgrow stuff. Yes.
[00:48:13] kristen: Everything has a shelf life.
[00:48:14] me: Yes.
[00:48:14] kristen: And so going back to your question, would I open it in South Florida or Florida?
[00:48:19] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:20] kristen: I don't think I align enough. Um,
[00:48:24] me: with the Florida legislature.
[00:48:25] kristen: Correct?
[00:48:25] me: Yeah. Not much.
[00:48:26] kristen: And that, that would be my driving reason.
[00:48:28] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:28] kristen: I would love to do something that would be like in a state or at least a school system
[00:48:38] me: yes.
[00:48:39] kristen: That align and supports the other,
[00:48:40] me: and that supports us, us.
[00:48:41] kristen: Well, that's the other thing, like, you know, um, one of our colleagues that's moving to Virginia, she, she goes, wow, ack, look at all, look how they're so happy.
And I think that's also like this thing that we. We meaning us collectively. Even at the school, we are listening to the other stories about how people are unhappy. And we are taking some of that and moving that into our story.
[00:49:03] me: Yeah.
[00:49:03] Don't lose your 'Why' in the chatter
---
[00:49:03] kristen: And I have to be careful. 'cause sometimes like I'll hear people, oh, this place is so this, and then I have to remind myself that's, that's their experience.
I find my joys, I find my happiness.
[00:49:15] me: Yeah.
[00:49:15] kristen: And I stay with that. I try desperately to be the one that's coming with positivity, not blanket positivity. 'cause I think that's unrealistic.
[00:49:24] me: Yes.
[00:49:24] kristen: But a space of I'm present. I'm here. I'm doing the best I can.
[00:49:29] me: Yeah.
[00:49:29] kristen: And however
[00:49:32] me: someone's grateful you showed up today.
[00:49:33] kristen: Thank you.
I'm, I'm grateful I showed up for myself.
[00:49:34] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:35] kristen: But anyways, the, I think we lose our why
[00:49:39] me: Mm.
[00:49:41] kristen: In that chatter.
[00:49:43] me: Yeah.
[00:49:43] kristen: And then. It infiltrates the, I'm "not making enough, I'm not enough". This is a time suck. This, this, this. I can
[00:49:50] me: show
up and do my job to my best ability. And it's still crap to like my higher ups.
[00:49:54] kristen: Yeah.
[00:49:54] me: That shit eats at you. But that also, but then it's like, just because they're higher up does not
[00:50:00] kristen: make them better than us. Just because they were able to complete a program and someone deemed them, no,
[00:50:07] me: you know what?
You're right.
[00:50:08] kristen: Thank you.
[00:50:08] me: All you did was do a little extra school. Thank you. You are not doing your job better than I'm doing my job.
[00:50:13] kristen: Someone put you, it's like, it's like, you know, if we were playing a game of like, what do, what was that tap? When what? Duck, duck, goose. Duck,
[00:50:20] me: duck goose.
[00:50:20] kristen: So I tapped you and I picked you to run around.
It does not mean you're the best runner.
[00:50:24] me: Right.
[00:50:25] kristen: And it doesn't mean you're the best leader.
[00:50:26] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:27] kristen: And again, going back in education, we pick our friends. We don't pick the best the people for the, the people that are the best for the job.
[00:50:34] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:34] kristen: 'Cause we are, at the end of the day,
[00:50:36] me: some of us are more like humanely wired
right. Than others, but no empty.
So
[00:50:40] kristen: that's, that's, yeah.
[00:50:41] me: Mm.
[00:50:42] kristen: I just want you to hear me though. I'm very, very appreciative for you to take this time and for the voice that you are trying to do.
I
[00:50:48] me: appreciate you, dude. I appreciate all that you do. You are one of the role models. Like I've learned a lot what not to do in guidance, but that's why I'm always tapping my head in here. 'cause I like to see you guys in actions meeting kids where they are failed to be met. , And ask questions
[00:51:02] kristen: like that's how, that's how it's supposed to be.
And that's actually something where it blows my mind because when I was on a team where my teammate was in another state, yes. I had to call them and email them.
[00:51:13] me: Yeah.
[00:51:13] kristen: We work where we could walk to each other.
[00:51:16] me: Yeah.
[00:51:16] kristen: And we don't do that. You do?
[00:51:18] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:19] kristen: I feel like your door's open.
[00:51:21] me: Apparently not.
[00:51:22] kristen: But, but at the same time, yeah. You find your people.
[00:51:25] me: Yeah.
[00:51:26] kristen: Alright, keep going.
[00:51:26] Self-regulation is a discipline
---
[00:51:26] me: Um, okay. Since we have a lot of like, chaos and irregulation how do you, being in the ESE world, you deal with this a lot. as a person, not only get yourself, your students to like self-regulate, cope, how do you do that for yourself in the midst of all this?
[00:51:46] kristen: Mm. Okay. So
[00:51:48] me: because I'm still learning.
[00:51:49] kristen: Oh, as, as we all are.
[00:51:52] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:53] kristen: Um, that's an inner journey. Like when you realize that what you bring literally is- what I bring energetically will impact everyone around me. And you believe in that, then you also understand you have to do that in order to, be the best human.
So how do I do it? I've had to do a lot of self-reflection.
[00:52:18] me: Yeah.
[00:52:20] kristen: I have a daily meditation practice.
[00:52:21] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:22] kristen: I started meditating, um, like for 10 minutes, but now I do it for 30.
And so when I really got into my body
[00:52:30] me: mm-hmm.
[00:52:30] kristen: And stopped a, not, not all the chatter, because we we're humans, we chatter Yeah. We create stories.
[00:52:37] me: Yeah.
[00:52:38] kristen: When I stopped or started to understand the story that I was telling myself and then allowed myself to see, well, wow, that was just a story and that didn't even happen.
Or literally the rumination that I might do about how I can't believe I, that happened to me. I also started to let that go.
[00:52:55] me: Yeah.
[00:52:56] kristen: Um, so when I was under understanding the power of just being present
[00:52:59] me: mm-hmm.
[00:53:00] kristen: That. Then opened me up to how dysregulated I was. Yeah. And how chaotic, how I would show up fast.
[00:53:08] me: Yeah.
[00:53:09] kristen: So this has been a journey of self-reflection of me saying, can you show up in a way that you would want that other person to show up?
[00:53:19] me: Yeah.
[00:53:19] kristen: And in a space of understanding that when my heart starts to beat
[00:53:25] me: Yeah.
[00:53:25] kristen: Really fast, what does that do? Well, it usually creates my brain to like go into a different realm.
And so for me, my breath and, and I found my breath through meditation. So, and I use exercise, everything that I need to do. To just not in a moment understand that whatever I'm experiencing, whether it's a child that's having a crisis, whether it's a parent that feels that like we have done so wrong, if I just listen and not try to interject
[00:54:02] me: yes
[00:54:02] kristen: myself, which is very difficult and I did not,
[00:54:04] me: it's ego death.
You gotta just
[00:54:05] kristen: UUGHH!.
But I had to hear it. Somebody once told me, he goes, if you don't stop, it wasn't a parent,. Yeah. This was, um, my previous job. He goes, if you don't stop talking and don't let me, he's like, I'm gonna hang up the phone. I said, okay, you're right. And so in that feedback, again, having that feedback to be like, oh, I am not showing up like a very good human here.
It's made me then have my self-reflection moments to say how do I end up better to be regulated is probably one of the most difficult things. 'cause you can't be regulated all the time. You can try. Yeah.
[00:54:32] me: We're mad at kids that can't do it. Shit. Half us can't even do it.
[00:54:34] kristen: Right, exactly. And that goes back to this perpetuating problem that I feel like we have is this, we don't have regulated adults that then have to try to regulate kids.
So if the adult right says, , I, I can't take Sally today. Whatever. No one questions. Well, is it the kid or the adult? We always assume it's the kid.
[00:54:59] me: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:55:00] kristen: And no one stops to say, oh wait a minute. Wait a minute.
[00:55:04] me: Where was the adults role here?
[00:55:05] kristen: Maybe you were getting picked
on.
[00:55:05] me: Was she the catalyst?
[00:55:06] kristen: Right,
[00:55:07] me: right.
[00:55:07] kristen: Were you the trigger?
[00:55:08] me: Mm.
[00:55:09] kristen: So I try not to be triggers, I try to keep my voice really calm. I've also had experiences of my own, through my own mental health challenges where I've been screamed at. I've been like, I've,
[00:55:21] me: we've been in the receiving end of this, right?
[00:55:23] kristen: And so I understand what it feels like.
[00:55:26] me: We were 17, 16 ones we've been talked to, like, you know, where, where would that have sent me?
[00:55:30] kristen: I, I,
[00:55:31] me: you know what? Off the deep end,
[00:55:32] kristen: some of it, I still remember some of the things that was,
[00:55:35] me: yeah, some of those comments linger in your brain and you don't wanna be that, I don't think negative memory, I wanna be the positive,
[00:55:42] kristen: right?
And, but like, but it's also, I made a choice to myself to say like, in order for me to be the best version of myself for the greatest and highest good of all humans, I have to do the work on myself.
[00:55:55] You cannot pour from an empty cup
---
[00:55:55] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:56] kristen: Which is meditation, which is making sure I go outside and I have fresh air hit me.
I don't use my cell phone as much as most people.
[00:56:04] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:56:05] kristen: I try not to be in, in spaces that I can, that generate a lot of like comparison or whatever. I know my things that I'm working on and I also understand that I have a choice to bring it to work or leave it on the outside. . I'm really at a space right now that the more I have gone inward to heal myself and the more I get into me
[00:56:30] me: mm-hmm.
[00:56:31] kristen: It's made a huge difference on what I've been able to show up for other people.
[00:56:35] me: You cannot pour from an empty cup.
[00:56:37] kristen: Correct. But you have to fill up your cup.
[00:56:39] me: Yeah.
[00:56:39] kristen: No one else can. And this job has allowed me to deal with adults in a different way. And
[00:56:45] me: Oh yes.
[00:56:46] kristen: That, yeah.
[00:56:48] me: Oh yes, I see it.
But you, but you see it. And, like I say this, I see things with a sociological lens.
'cause that was my undergrad, so I see it.
[00:56:56] kristen: Oh, I did not know that.
[00:56:56] me: So that's my background. So I see things with a different lens. So I'm saying like, you. Probably see these things in adults and you're like also working on yourself. So you do see things through, call it the ESE lens, call it whatever, you know.
But
[00:57:10] kristen: I do,
[00:57:10] me: Yes. Well, I think we've covered the most we can cover. I think we really got into the nitty gritty. Yeah. And I'm so happy we finally did.
[00:57:19] kristen: Me too.
[00:57:19] me: I'm sure I'll do another episode with you at some point next. I love it like next school year. 'cause some of our kids are growing and now leaving the nest that we've started with.
Yeah. I think of all of our babies that like we have eyes on and are now gonna be seniors like crazy. Yes. So I'm excited to continue to collab. But is there something you wanna touch before
that?
[00:57:43] Final thoughts
---
[00:57:43] kristen: I, I think it's important for us.
Women to step into spaces and have these conversations and take more time to do this.
[00:57:54] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:57:55] kristen: I think having dialogue and having a moment where you take away the computer, you take away the kid, and we can talk
[00:58:01] me: and
just,
[00:58:02] kristen: and talk as humans.
[00:58:04] me: Yes.
[00:58:04] kristen: I If you look at
[00:58:06] me: gain perspective
[00:58:07] kristen: Yes. In our schools, we don't eat together anymore.
We don't go into the teacher planning rooms.
[00:58:15] me: Everyone's to themselves.
[00:58:17] kristen: Correct.
[00:58:17] me: It's hyper individualism. That's like a thing now.
[00:58:19] kristen: Yes.
[00:58:20] me: Yes. There's no communal.
This would help.
[00:58:23] kristen: This would help.
[00:58:23] me: Right.
[00:58:24] kristen: And I think too, there's a part where we as women, 'cause most of us here are women.
[00:58:30] me: Yeah.
[00:58:31] kristen: We don't realize how powerful we are when we sit together and converse 'cause we are unfortunately, like, and especially in this leadership situation.
Yeah. I feel like it's like not just him, not that's just our person leading us from a local level, but there's like this power over.
[00:58:48] me: Yeah.
[00:58:48] kristen: To just to comply and go and it's okay to stop. And I feel like we're just missing moments to have these conversations.
[00:58:55] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:55] kristen: And so I wish more people, especially women in education, would step up.
[00:59:02] me: Are we showing up? How can we be better?
[00:59:03] kristen: How can we be better?
[00:59:05] me: Yeah.
[00:59:05] kristen: That's it. And how can we support each other?
But what I've chose to do, especially with that one kid that we were. Alluding to, I am so determined to show him there's a different way.
And, and in that, um, that is something where I feel like because I'm showing up differently for him, while simultaneously my colleagues are watching me, it's made them change. So sometimes it's not a matter of saying, Hey, miss so and so, you should do this differently. It's literally doing it.
[00:59:48] me: Showing
[00:59:49] kristen: doing it.
[00:59:49] me: Yes.
[00:59:50] kristen: Just doing it.
[00:59:51] me: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:51] kristen: And staying true to your core and values and that find your why. Keep your why. You'll be okay. Thank you so much. Thank, this is awesome.
[01:00:02] me: Queen Kristen. We did it. Yay!