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Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America is a weekly podcast for soccer parents, coaches, and players who want to understand how youth soccer development really works in the United States.
Hosted by two dads, filmmaker Liron Unreich and investor Matt Tartaglia, the show covers everything from grassroots soccer to elite pathways like MLS NEXT and ECNL. Combining data, real experience, and expert insights from academy directors, college coaches, and former pros, each episode explains what families truly need to know.
Weekly episodes focus on the core aspects of youth soccer: player development, coaching culture, college recruiting, tryouts, travel costs, and the challenges of parenting in youth sports in today’s competitive environment.
For families navigating youth soccer’s complex system, Chasing the Game offers practical advice, credible voices, and relatable stories from two dads working to make sense of American player development, one episode at a time.
Okay, Matt, I don't have time to talk about anything right now.
No halls, no, how are you?
The algorithm said we need an aggressive hook.
People in YouTube are quitting this podcast too soon.
So listen to this, people of YouTube.
Your kid is under constant evaluation.
Your soccer kid is terrified of making mistakes
and it is all your fault.
Did I get your attention now?
Got my attention.
And you soccer, the difference between players isn't often significant.
So why is one playing with confidence and thriving while the other is ready to quit?
It's not their technical ability.
It's what's happening in their head.
I also did another thing, Matt, which is pretty crazy for me.
And I actually, I had to do it, but I read a book
And after reading this book, I understand that I'm the most ultimate
untrained, emotional coach, the greatest of all time.
We were really fortunate to be joined by Dr. Kim O'Brien and
Dr. Jonathan Jenkins, co-authors of Metality Wins,
which focuses on the mental side of the game for athletes.
not including Laure.
Their book breaks the mental Game into four pillars, focusocus,
flow, finish, and flourish.
Jonathan Surs as a team psychologist for the New England Patriots
and the Boston Red Sox and is part of the Harvard Medical School Teaching community.
Kim works with athletes on mental health and performance
and has been affiliated with Boston's Children Hospital and Harvard programs.
This is a book by Athletes for Athletes.
Parents, coaches, take out your notes app because if you've
ever had a car ride, go sideways.
See what I did here?
Or you ever want your kid kid play scared?
This episode is for you.
Liron: So, welcome to chasing the Game.
I'm gonna be direct 'cause this
is kind of what I do, but uh, when
you look back, okay, we were all
teenagers once and you were athletes.
What were the pressure points for you?
Do you have any recollection?
And, uh, Kim, why don't you start,
Kim: Sure.
Well, I'm old.
I mean, I'm 47, so
Liron: ah.
Kim: I you know?
Did you come from a sports family there?
Were you hockey players in your family? Right.
Big hockey family.
Um, my dad played my, um, my then
like my brother played, uh, and just
like lots of relatives played my,
it's a love for all of us really.
Liron: And JJ for you.
Jonathan: So I think the big thing for
me was that instead of somebody growing
up right now who's a teenager, the
big thing that I was comparing myself
against athletically were the kids in
my school, kids in my neighborhood,
kids in my town, maybe the kids in
my state, but now a teenager can
compare themselves against, you know,
kids in the country internationally.
They can get all the stats,
they can get the videos.
So immediately and so there is
this, um, seduction with comparison
and that was something that I just
didn't feel I was either really
good at my school or really bad.
And that was the only pool of people
that I was comparing myself again,
which was a pretty small pool.
And then when it came
to sports that I liked.
It was very much focused on particular
athletes that I was interested in.
So whether it be, you know, members
of the US World Cup team when we were
young, like Kobe Jones and stuff like
that, or it was the Agassis or the
Michael Jordans, I would fixate on
those players and try to be like them.
And I wasn't necessarily comparing myself
to other kids because the technology
wasn't there to do that at my age.
Liron: Right.
So no social media basically,
uh, you had absolutely no stress.
I I It's okay.
You can admit it, it's fine.
But, but, so you're looking at it now.
I mean, you, you, you've done
enormous amount of work in the field.
Uh, the book is a representation of that.
But when you were a teenager, did
you already have that kind of ability
to, to separate the physical side
and the mental side, or you were in
absolute chaos and that's why you've
gone into the fields that you've gone
Kim: I say.
don't think the physical and
the mental side are separate.
I think they're so intertwined.
Um, but I certainly was never
taught any skills of how to manage
my emotions in or outta sport.
Um, that was something I really
worked through a lot in college.
Um, not super successfully I'll say,
but um, which is partly why I do the
work I do, because it was so hard
for me and I was fortunate to, you
know, learn things later, you know,
in life that have been helpful,
that I wish I had known back then.
But now I get to help teach kids
and young adults that now, so
it's, it's rewarding for me.
Jonathan: Yeah.
I'd say for me, one of my biggest
issues was that I was involved
in a lot of individual sports,
so I grew up playing tennis.
I just could not manage the stress of
every point was on my shoulders and
all these people were looking at me.
So actually playing team
sports helped a lot.
I got into soccer, uh, basketball,
lacrosse, so these opportunities where
I could shoulder some of the load of
competition and then also I could be
with my friends when I was at practice.
And so being able to have some gratitude,
have some relationship, have some
comradery, really allowed me to deal
with the stress of sports better.
But I think a lot of us, you know, for
Kim and I especially part of writing this
book was cathartic because we realized we
were able to, we make amends was some of
those tough situations early in our lives
by sharing them with the reader and show
the ways in which we've grown and the
ways that we're excited about continuing
to grow as parents of athletes, but also
as, um, older athletes in, in our lives.
Liron: So in a way, why now?
Right?
Why?
Why write the book right now?
Why not?
Why now?
Click command P and print it.
Why now Bind it.
Why?
What is this moment right now
Kim: Well, I think kids need this now.
I mean, there's so, there are so
many stresses, pressures, things that
these kids have to deal with today.
And our world now, our society
now is a little more open to
the importance of mental skills.
And what we, when we were talking
together about writing the book, what
we were talking about with each other
was like, there doesn't really exist.
A book that isn't like a textbook
but is more mainstream for younger,
young adult athletes that have
stories that you can connect to
or have like, um, specific skills.
You can, you open up, open up the page
too and utilize right then and there.
So we wanted to make
something just, you know.
Really pretty easy to read.
Just something that any like teen or
you know, young adult athlete can just
pick up and, you know, flip through
and find some things that work for
them and that they could use right
then and there to help enhance their
mental health and their performance.
Well, the other thing too about this
book is okay, yes, maybe it's written
for the athlete, the young athlete to
read, but it's also really critical the
coaches and parents are reading it too,
because especially if we're talking about
parents, you know, they're the ones who
are ultimately teaching their kids about.
How to regulate your emotions.
You know, how to deal with your difficult
coach, you know, how to, uh, cope
with the fact that you're not getting
playing time like you're as a parent.
You need skills to be, you need to be
armed with skills so that you can coach
your child through those skills so
that this is why the book too could be
helpful for parents if they just wanna
understand like, how do I help my kid
become more confident on the field?
Like, what is my, what types of
things do my, does my kid need to do?
It's all right there.
So, you know, as, as a parent, like
you're that first line for them of,
of helping them develop this stuff.
Jonathan: And, and I think what
makes soccer unique about this is
there's so many different directions
that you can take the sport, right?
You got your academies, you got your
local ball, you got school connected ball.
So all these different avenues
are there to cultivate skills,
just enjoy the sport in general.
Be able to get that player develop.
Whereas other sports, like if you're
trying to be really good at basketball,
chances are you're just probably
gonna do a a U. You know, if you
wanna be good at baseball, you're
probably just gonna do travel ball.
But given the proliferation of all these
different ways in which soccer players can
really advance their skills and be seen
and recognized either to go to college
or go professional, there needs to be a
little bit more nuance and how we support
them and how we help them identify not
only what's gonna be the best situation
for you physically and skill wise, but
also what's gonna be the best situation
for you mentally and emotionally.
Matt: Yeah, we, we, we see
so much labeling and tiering
in youth soccer starting at.
Nine years old, eight years
old in some cases, honestly.
And you know, the top team, the second
team, this league, this badge, a lot of
it's marketing, some of it's real, um,
you know, you do, we've got something now
which you guys may be aware of, which is
called bio banding, but they have just in
the MLS next league, which allows for kids
to play up or down depending on if they've
fallen behind in size, in growth, or if
they're, um, or their own development
or they have a late birthday, which I
think is great, but it's complicated.
And I think that's kind of
what we try to unpack here.
And I'm just curious, I'd love to get
into, so your work specifically in this
book, in the four pillars you cover
off, focus, flow, finish, and flourish.
Can you talk about how you landed on the
four and what each one of them should mean
to, to the reader and to our audience?
Jonathan: so when Kim and I were thinking
about writing the book, we were looking
at the other books out there and a lot
of the other books out there just really
focused on, Hey, these are things you
should do when you're playing your sport
or doing that high performance activity.
And we felt that was really limited
because some people might be really good
at focusing before the event, but not
really good focusing during the event.
Or they might be good focusing
during the event, but during those
crucial moments, they struggle.
So we broke it up into four different
categories, preparing before the event.
Prepare during the event when
you're actually competing.
How to manage those crucial,
really stressful moments and how to
flourish and enrich your life, both
mentally, but also in a performance
standpoint, in between competition.
So this allows people to kind of
pick and choose what area their
strengths are so they can improve
their strengths, but also what area
their weaknesses lie, so that they can
figure out how to manage those as well.
So the book can be read in one sitting
or from page one to page 200, or
it can be kind of like a buffet.
I really wanna work on my pre-game
routine, so I'm gonna read that
chapter, oh, this chapter's about play.
I'm gonna really enjoy this so that
as you go through your athletic
career or the challenges, you can
always pick up the book and either
revisit or explore new topics.
Kim: And so our focus.
Part is the, the beginning part,
and that's really where we talk
about how you can focus your
attention to where it matters most.
Um, so you're beginning your,
you know, your practices or
games with the right mentality.
Then we kinda shift into the flow section,
which where we really emphasize the use
of mindfulness and things like play and
enjoyment to access your true potential
and help you stay locked in in the moment.
And then the finish section, that's
where we talked more specifically about
performing under pressure and like
how to show up, how to bounce back
from mistakes, that sort of thing.
And then lastly, the, the, uh, section
on Flourish is where we really focus
on things you can do overall to enhance
your own mental wellbeing, to help
you grow as a person and a teammate.
Because it's really when you fall deeper
in love with yourself and your sport, that
you're gonna feel better, you're gonna
play better, and things will fall into
Liron: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's
pretty, look, I mean, I'm probably
the, uh, the ultimate untrained
emotional and soccer coach.
You know, I'm the, I'm, I'm the guy
everybody doesn't want to go to.
Matt: That's not true.
Liron: what, what we thought to do maybe,
uh, is to kind of look at some pressure
points that we recognized in youth
soccer, both for parents and for kids,
and kind of see what your take on them is.
Okay.
Uh, it would definitely be the
opposite of what I would do.
So, uh, it, the, as we discussed
this, this idea of, of these, like
Matt said, this infinite elite system
and hybrid systems and whatever.
So the kids always have, because the,
the path is so nonlinear and there's so
many organizations and way more confusing
than most sports in the United States.
You, the kids always feel that
they're under constant evaluation.
So you always have multiple tryouts per
year for different leagues or who know,
different brackets, different tournaments,
uh, midyear movement all the time.
You see kids in and
out of team constantly.
Um, I know from one of the academies now
there's a 24 group team, they're sending
eight kids, plus the rest are tryouts.
All the other kids have to
go look for other teams.
So, I mean, it's just these, this
imbalance that happens all the time.
So when I look at it from the
side, obviously it affects
attention, mood, confidence.
does that fit into the, the four pillars?
Kim: Oh, well.
Fits into a lot there.
Um, I guess I'll, I'll just start
by saying that like this constant
evaluation you're talking about, we
see this in a lot of youth sports too.
Not just soccer, but Oh,
it's huge in youth soccer.
And I think what.
What that does for these kids
is it can create this constant
fear of making mistakes.
Where, and, and what we know about
playing at your potential is you need
to play, not afraid to make mistakes.
You need to be playing like with no
fear, like not being able to take risks.
So if they're constantly worrying
about that outcome, right, about
that, um, the outcome of making this
or that team, or getting X amount of
goals or x amount of saves, if they're
constantly worrying about the outcome,
they're not gonna be fully immersed
in the process, the actual playing
of the game, and what they're doing.
So it's going to be not only harder
for them to enjoy what they're doing.
In turn, it's gonna be harder for them
to perform at their best because they're
not gonna be fully present in the zone.
So that fully being fully present in
the zone, that's like a flow thing.
Um, but in, in the, the finish section
is where we talk more about like
concrete skills to use to manage
that fear of making a mistake.
Um, it things like self-talk and, um,
using like queuing words to reset yourself
after a mistake, things like that.
Um, where we teach those
concrete techniques.
Um, and uh, but also what I'll
say too about that I've just said
all the negative things about this
constant evaluation that's happening.
The one thing I will say is it does
provide an opportunity for these youth
players to build resilience, to learn how
to work through adversity all the time.
'cause they're constantly
being put up against, um, you
know, difficult situations.
So if you're a coach or a parent who
can help your child reframe this as.
Wow, this is so exciting.
You get to go out here and do this and,
and fight for your spot rather than
saying, oh my God, I can't believe this
year you have to go out and try out again.
You know, it's like all how you,
how you phrase it, how you use,
um, you know, how you shift the
mindset and how you look at it.
Jonathan: Yeah, totally.
I, and just to echo what Kim
said, feedback is not bad.
It's how you give it
and how you receive it.
So the ability to teach kids how
to receive feedback in a positive
way, teach parents how to support.
The receiving of that feedback in a
positive way, teaching parents how
to receive feedback in a positive
way from coaches, and then also
teaching coaches like, Hey, you gotta
break some bad news to a player.
How do you do that?
So they don't fall outta
love with their sport?
How do you do that?
So you don't break the player, but
you let them know, Hey, you're not
on the team this year, or You're not
gonna be starting, or, you know, we're
gonna have to figure something out.
So I think that's one.
And then two, with the constant
evaluation, and like you
said, the roster turn churn.
One of the issues with that is confidence.
If I'm just meeting these new players
and I'm not able to go a long period of
time with being able to practice with
them, build relationships on the field,
off the field with them, do I have
the confidence to pass them that ball
to rely upon them in game situations
or if the roster is churning so much.
These new people are coming
in and you have the threat
of, I don't know this person.
Can I trust them?
And I don't know this person.
Are they gonna take my job?
Are they gonna take my position?
Are they gonna take my playing time?
So in a sport like soccer where
there are, where there is this roster
churn, the coach and the staff really
have to come up with a culture that
supports, Hey, when new people come
in, we get them connected into the
communication, the community really quick.
We embrace them and we figure out how
we can be competitive, but add that
comradery so we can have confidence
when we go out and perform against other
schools, other teams, other academies.
Liron: Yeah, we had a, uh, we had a, an
interview with, uh, a former PSG player
and he talks about his early academy
years and he brought an example of, he
says, and he, and he didn't answer, but
he asked that question is, what do you do?
He said, when your teammates don't want
to pass you the ball, what do you do?
He didn't answer it.
'cause then none of us could, but he, but.
that was like a, a frozen moment.
And I was thinking about, we were
thinking about our boys at the time.
You're right, it is that there's a special
dynamic that happens on that field.
What do you do?
And is that a flourish thing?
Is that a finished thing?
What, what is it?
Is what, what, what is that kind
of, what can you trigger to, to
help out in a situation like this?
Kim: I think it depends on why
they're not passing him Is it
because they're not commanding that
confidence to want the ball, or is
it because of some interpersonal
issue that's getting in the way?
I think if it's some interpersonal issue,
then there's gonna be a communication.
Concern,
Matt: But I would argue that.
Parents struggle with being patient.
In a lot of cases, kids
struggle with being patient.
They want to see the yield of the
work that they're doing or the club
that they're on, or the fact that
they're commuting two hours a day
and they wanna see the results.
And ultimately, clubs struggle with
patients, hence the roster turnover.
I'm just curious, how do you
approach, so everybody agrees you
need to be patient in development.
And I'm not saying there's some out there
who don't, who aren't, whether it's an
academy, a coach, a per a player, but from
our experience, it seems to be lacking
and it seems to be fairly universal.
How do you approach it, both
as a parent, but also how do
players need to think about that?
And, and you can, you can
touch the coaches piece too.
Jonathan: I, I think coaches
and let's say staffs, right?
High school staff, academy staff, travel
team staff, they need to appreciate the
fact that not just them, but everybody is
really bad at evaluating talent, right?
Unless you are an outlier and you're
either really, really good, you know, uh,
generational star, um, really athletic
or really, really bad, and you should
not be playing, this is not your sport.
We can do something else.
Those people in that happy middle.
If trying to identify a talented
9-year-old for the academy, 12-year-old,
14-year-old, 16-year-old, think of any
major sport draft, they get it wrong.
Number one, pick, they get it wrong.
Top five pick, they get it wrong.
Often they get it right, but think
about all the resources and time
that went into it and they still
weren't able to get it right.
So if we're gonna have an opportunity to
get it wrong, our priorities, particularly
in youth sports, still need to be centered
around how do we take this opportunity
that we hope turns out well, and use it as
an opportunity to cultivate great humans,
great members of community, great societal
members, so that this young person, when
they develop into adulthood, we've given
them skills for them to be successful.
And if they happen to turn
out to become great soccer
players, as we hope they will.
Bonus, that's fantastic.
Not only will they be great marketing,
but they'll be great on the field,
great in the community, great with
their teammates, but if we are actually
honest with ourselves about how often
we get it wrong, including how often
we get it right, then it shifts the
whole dynamic of these expectations
that we have as coaches, as parents,
and also as the players ourselves.
Liron: I mean, I mean the,
the, this is, it's amazing.
Uh, it's just brilliant
what you just said.
all the, so we've been in youth soccer for
a long time, and usually most of the kids
in certain level are pretty much the same.
They're, I call it 51-49.
That's kind of the, the
physical difference of, of those
kids except for the rockets.
And the, we had a, the director of
NYCFC who said they're rockets and
rockets are a different thing, but
everybody else is kind of in this middle.
And what I guess separates many
of them is mental fortitude or
recovery for mistakes or confidence.
So is the, I understand these things
are, you could work on them and
train them, but are they small minute
changes or this is something that
could be an, a life changing for,
for a kid if, if done properly when?
Not on the extreme when I'm just
talking about the, that kind of
improvement, uh, towards a certain goal.
Kim: I think the I think it
can be life changing after.
Practicing it over time.
So that's our focus part is a lot
about building strong habits that
support your goals and committing
to those things over time.
So I think if you can start teaching
kids things like how to use positive
self-talk through your practice, um,
you know, instead of saying like, oh, I
suck, say to yourself like, I got this.
You know, just as a little kid teaching
them like that, focus on that positivity.
Just ingraining it into a habit.
It will become how you
perceive yourself over time.
So I think it's helping them like
at multiple points, in multiple
doses work on these things.
I think it will have an
enormous impact at the
Jonathan: I agree.
You think about that 51 49, right?
If everybody's doing the same
thing and no one is taking care of.
Their mental health, their
performance aspects of their mind.
Now you doing it provides something
novel that everybody else isn't doing.
Your brain and your emotional capacity
and your intellect is exponential.
I'm gonna get only so fast,
only so strong, I'm only
gonna be able to jump as high.
I'm only gonna be able
to know soccer so well.
But if I'm emotionally mature or maturer
than my teammates or my opponents.
Now, not only when I'm on the field do
I take that more seriously and I'm more
locked in, but now more knocked, locked
in with my nutrition, with my lifting.
With my film study, with off the field
issues as a 16, 17, 18-year-old, I'm
gonna be better at having the discipline
and the focus to generate my attention
into something deliberately when I
need to, and be able to do that more
consistently than the athlete who lacks
discipline, lacks focus, lacks, uh, a
vision of what they want for their future.
So that emotional health and that
performance rises all the tides of
all the other areas in that player's
life, on the field and off the field.
And that's why Kim and I
feel it's so important.
Kim: one area of like, um, call that
we, we talk about called, um, you know,
grit, which we all know about what grit
is, but a lot of these athletes don't
really know like, how to build it.
But the thing with, with grit today,
it's so important because our kids are
being pulled in so many directions.
They can just get on their
phone for any second.
Like, it's very hard for kids today to
really focus in on a goal they want to
achieve and carve out the time and the
effort every single day to put towards it.
So helping them learn like what it
means to be gritty, what it means to,
you know, persevere toward, uh, uh,
towards something that you're super
passionate about every single day.
So, and you could do
this in small doses with.
Your teams by giving them a grit
building challenge for two weeks,
you're gonna work on one skill that
you wanna improve every single day.
And then you can rate yourself before
and after on how you've done with that.
So it's like little things like that
that you can infuse as a coach or you
know, maybe a parent if you don't want
it, but as long as it doesn't, you're not
feeling like a pushy parent to your kid.
Um, but helping your kid to see, like,
when you commit to something like
that, you'll also, not only will you
probably get better at that skill, but
you're gonna feel proud of yourself
that you put that extra time into it.
And you know what?
Down the road when none of them are
playing major league soccer, which
the majority will not, they're gonna
be able to apply that to the job
they work at or, you know, like this
college they go to or whatever it is.
So they're all like important skills that
they're learning in this youth soccer
that they can then apply later on, um, in
their lives with respect to mental skills.
Matt: when I think about elite soccer
players, let's say from anywhere from U 12
on up, they're training anywhere between
three and four days a week, roughly.
Let's call it an hour and
45 minutes each session.
Then they do their own work on the
side, and they play a match or two
on the weekends, and this is for 10
months a What did your research show
as far as how much time, whether it was
in soccer or in other sports coaches,
clubs, academies, leagues are actually
focused on the mental health and helping,
helping build resilient, strong athletes.
Liron: Well, I can answer that now.
Matt: It was a zero.
Yeah.
So, so how so how, how do we change?
I mean, hopefully this
book is read by millions.
People start to understand that
there's ways you can do this within
your team, within your household,
whatever it may be, where it cascades
down, but why isn't it prioritized?
When we have tools like Zoom and we
have other ways to gather a team that's
not just in person, because I get it,
kids are running to get home and do
their homework, or whatever it may be.
Why aren't we spending the time when it
ultimately is the differentiator back
to the 51 49, where the kids who are
mentally strong develop an advantage
and ultimately have a greater chance
of succeeding if the talent aligns to that
Kim: I think.
The leaders of the teams need to be
fully bought in to the importance of it.
And not only that, but it
shouldn't be treated as an aside.
Like, okay, now we're gonna
work on mental skills.
No, it needs to be infused in every
single thing you do, every single way
you coach, um, you know, all the time.
You're always focusing on it.
So like.
You know, I'll give 'em, I, I'm just with
my hockey team all the time right now,
so I'm thinking about them all the time.
But like, I'm trying to do
this now as a coach, you know,
infuse these mental skills.
So, you know, I'm literally teaching
them, you know, okay, in the middle
of, of a game when you're feeling
really stressed, we're like, we're,
you know, maybe up a goal and, you
know, we're, we're super stressed out
or maybe they, maybe they score on us.
And how does that feel?
I'm literally teaching them skills like
the physiological sigh, which Jonathan
knows what that is, but it's basically
a deep breathing technique that helps
bring your level of arousal down so
that your thought processes and your,
and your, you know, body movements are
more in sync and can help you better.
So I'm teaching them things like
that in the context of the hockey
arena, you know, so I think things
like that need to be happening
in soccer where after a kid like.
Shanks a ball or whatever happens.
It's like, and they're, you know,
go throw like a temper tantrum.
It's in those moments, you don't just
yell at the kid, like, stop crying.
Whatcha it's that You're like, you
bring them over to the side and
you try to explain to 'em, you know
what, I bet that was really hard, but
let's, you know, let's talk about,
you know, let's, let's just try to
reset yourself a little bit here.
Like, it's just one goal.
Like, are you gonna even remember that
you missed that shot in, you know,
by tomorrow maybe they'll say yes.
What about in a week?
No, probably not.
Right?
Okay, so let's just let it go right now.
We don't, we don't need
to think about that.
But it's like trying to get coaches
to buy into using like those types of
skills and things like that, embedded
within what they're doing is gonna
be, I think, the difference maker.
Jonathan: Yeah, and I, and I think trying
to prevent or, or reeducate young people.
From thinking about, well, if I have
some mental health challenge that
my coach is going to see that as a
deficit and I'm gonna get cut for it.
So if I talk, if I confide in my coach
that I'm struggling with anxiety, will
that coach trust me with the penalty kick?
Or will that coach trust me to start
versus I'm struggling with it and if
you give me some help or if I, if you
allow me to get the help elsewhere,
then it shouldn't be a problem.
Because if across all major sports,
international and domestic, there
are plenty of tremendous athletes who
struggle with anxiety, both in competition
and outside of it, or depression or
substance use or whatever it may be.
And they're still able to be productive.
But for a lot of young kids, the desire
to communicate some of those internal
feelings, which can be very dark, very
confusing, can be very challenging.
And for the coach, some of us,
and I'll throw myself in there.
Being an adolescent was tough.
TUFF tough.
So if I'm not dealing with my own
stuff, and I'm also not trained
about how to do the ask in a way
that makes me feel comfortable in
a way that makes a young person
comfortable, then I'm never gonna ask.
I'll acknowledge it in this nonverbal way
like a dude talk, where it's like, huh,
huh and grunting and all that other stuff.
But I will never get to a level where
we might actually be able to do the
work in a nonclinical way to make that
person feel more comfortable and to be
the caretaker that I actually wanna be.
Because I got into coaching.
To be a caretaker, to develop young
people and to support them while
they try to do this really cool thing
that we all enjoy AKA play soccer
Liron: soccer is maybe unique in the
United States because it has that
giant middle class of players that
have these multiple supposed paths
to get to the success of college or,
or pro or play in Europe or whatever.
But it's also unique in the United States
because it's actually kind of a second
or third tier sport where Americans
are very used to having kind of top
dog sports, I find that youth soccer
players are more vulnerable in that
sense because there's just more of them.
And it's something that I look at
it from the side and, and what you
said was, was, I get it, but it
almost seems like it, it would be
something that would be an
impossibility with the way
things are structured, right now.
How, how would this even be
implemented into a system?
Jonathan: And I think that's
what the USA soccer is really
trying to figure out, right?
We have these talented
young people in our country.
We have an enthusiasm for soccer.
We have the ability to train them, get
their nutrition right, be able to get
them the best facilities, but we're
also having trouble, uh, distinguishing
that again, that elite class of
athlete because everybody's telling
us that this player is really good.
But then when we try to evaluate them.
The results get muddled.
And I think you're exactly right that
because societally and on social media,
they're not getting the attention that
they deserve for their athletic endeavors.
There can be a lot of, well, I'm not
gonna play this sport anymore and I'm
gonna go somewhere where I'm appreciated.
I remember I worked with a soccer
player, two sport athlete, played soccer
in a, in another sport in the spring,
and his whole thought process was,
well, it's hard to talk to my friends
about being this good at soccer because
they just don't understand the academy
system and like how much I've achieved.
So I'd actually rather play at a
lower level in a more understood
sport than play at this really elite
level in a sport where you said it's
kind of like second or third tier in
terms of attention span in American
households when it comes to sports.
And that killed me because it's like you
spent so much time and you're excited
to play, but yet the social pressure of.
Hey, let's go play.
Hey, let's go play lacrosse.
Let's go football kind.
Have this from.
Matt: Yeah, and I think even,
uh, the, the, that specific
challenge is even greater.
It get continues to get greater because
if you're playing at one of the elite
clubs at one of the MLS next clubs, the
homegrown version of that, uh, you're
not allowed to play high school soccer.
So you're removing and, and look for
some kids who are quote unquote rockets
or for many kids, the development
environments that they're in at
academies is much better experience from
a development perspective, gives them
a greater chance to play in college.
Like nobody would argue that.
Unfortunately, it seems like there's a lot
of kids in that boat who aren't rockets,
who are then losing the opportunity
to play with teammates, friends, uh,
and to develop kind of that emotional
element, mental element of you have a
game on a Tuesday afternoon and then
you show up at school the next day.
Whereas I think, you know, the
story you're alluding to, it
probably had something to do
with the two sport athlete.
Like you're playing at a really high
level in an elite academy, and you're
playing in front of, you know, 25 parents
and, and family members essentially,
and nobody's seeing you play, right?
So there's a, there's a challenge I
think, that kids are facing in this sport
here, where it's like, there, there's
this, there's, they're getting pulled
from maybe what they want to do because
of the path that they think they're
on, and hopefully they're on that path.
But if they're not, then I just fear
they're losing a critical experience.
Kim: I mean, when we
talk about healthy, um.
Identity development for youth.
It doesn't mean let's just
focus completely 100% on soccer.
Like there, you cannot fully
healthfully develop your identity
if you're only concerned about
one thing and one thing only.
You've got to have other
elements of your life to be able
to fully develop as a person.
And I, I'm not, and believe
me, I'm pro Academy.
I, my daughter goes to a hockey academy.
I'm pro academy, but you only if you
help your child develop their identity
outside of the sport they're in,
because if you don't and something bad
happens in that sport, it's gonna be
really hard for them to bounce back.
Matt: their whole identity is tied up in
it, and that's the greatest risk, right?
You've put all your eggs in one basket.
Um, I just have a question for you guys.
You mentioned anxiety and depression
and some of the other issues.
It, it feels like we're living in a
culture now where a society now where we
can, we, we talk a lot more about mental
health and the importance of it, but it
also feels like there are a ton more kids
who are dealing with, and I don't know
the statistics, I'm sure you guys do.
So please jump in with them who are
dealing with anxiety, depression, they
have a DHD or a DD or something else.
Do you see those numbers going up in
a staggering way or are we, or, or
are we just hearing about them more?
And given the challenges around
devices, which you mentioned earlier
and we've talked a lot about on
this show, how do you manage, how
do you manage through these things
as a parent and, and as a player?
Jonathan: Yeah, it's, it's, it's
certainly tough and we think even
from a childhood perspective.
So, um, my wife and I have a 7-year-old,
seven and a half year old as he wants
to tell everybody, and not seven dad.
I'm seven and a half.
Um.
Just watching TV when, you know, he
was born a little bit before COVID.
And so all those YouTube shows where
they cut the shot every three seconds
and it's shifting attention and so
it, it primes his brain to always be
looking for stimuli as opposed to old
Mickey Mouse cartoons or Dark Wing
Duck when I was a kid, where you'd
have these long are gonna be impacted
by the things that you're impacted.
Kim: like, in terms of actual statistics,
I, I don't know, um, offhand what
those are, but I think like when
we're looking at high schoolers, for
example, I think like approximately,
um, 20% of them have had some sort
of a major depressive episode,
and I think the anxiety is higher.
I think closer to 30.
Jonathan, correct me if I'm wrong
in these, but what I do know
is that the anxieties increased
more so than the depression.
And I think part of the reason for
this, it, you know, is some of what
Jonathan was just talking about
with like your attention being
pulled in all these directions.
And it's also when we talk about sport.
I think it's a lot because there's so
much choice now that kids have, and
when you have more choice, it creates
more uncertainty and more questioning.
And what is the best place?
Like, let, I mean, let's, let's even
fast forward to college, the transfer
portal, this has just opened up a whole,
whole wide range of problems, right?
it's because there's so much choice.
And kids always think like, well, if
I was at this place, maybe that coach
would like me better, or if I was at
this place, like, you know, I'd be on,
you know, the first line or whatever.
It's like, so I think with all that
choice, there's so much more thinking and
with more thinking, there's more anxiety.
So I, I, I, and this is, you know,
that's just anecdotal, that's not
research, but I think that's certainly
part of what we're seeing happening
with respect to anxiety in sport.
Liron: But I think it connects to
kind of what I want to bring in
next, which is really our, the swath
of our audience, which is parents.
So as I was reading through the
material, I said, well, you know,
I, I took a couple screenshots.
I said, oh, you know, maybe I'll
print a couple things for my son.
I'll, I'll post it also.
And then as I was kind of going
through it, I said, A, I feel
like I need a lot of this.
And two is I'm not sure that I am the
person that can relay that information.
To him and I, it made me feel, I gotta
be honest with you, as I was kind of
going through it, I was, I was starting
to feel that kind of knot in my stomach
where it's like, oh shit, I don't
think I, I'm the right person to do it.
'cause I need someone to do this with me.
And I, I Is this something that, that
you've come across as far as, uh, as,
as you're trying to communicate the
Matt: Lauren?
I love when you get vulnerable
Liron: I am, I am.
I'm a softie.
What can I say?
Kim: Well, I think it's so hard
being a parent of, well, how old
are your, your youth players?
Liron: Uh, my daughter's a
gymnast 16, and my son is a 13,
uh, year old, uh, soccer player.
Matt: and mine is, uh, son is
14 and my daughter is eight.
Both soccer players.
Kim: Okay.
So I, my kids are all, I've got
four kids between the ages of 12
and 17, all play sports, so I feel
Liron: wonder you wrote a book.
Matt: Yeah, exactly.
You, you can, you can, you,
you, you can replace, replace
podcast or give you a book.
You can replace Liron on
this if you wanna be my
partner.
Kim: book was my therapy
for having four teenagers in
Liron: like this podcast.
Yeah.
Matt: Oh gosh.
Kim: No, yes.
Serious, but seriously, because it, it
is, I, I can just speak personally as a
parent, what I. What I see happening is
I, it's oftentimes hard for me to see my
kid in distress, and so my initial gut
instinct is to try to do things to fix it.
But thankfully, with all the training
I've had, I can sometimes take my
parent hat off and try to just be
rational about it and remember that
it's so important that, that my kids
fight through adversity on their own.
I'll be there to support them, but like
it's good for them to try and fail things.
It's good for them to try to work through
a really difficult playing situation.
Or if you know they've got a terrible
coach or whatever it is, it's good for
them to have to manage that because
what's gonna happen in 20 years
when they have a terrible boss and
they need to figure out what to do?
Do I quit my job?
Do I stick through it?
What do I do?
Liron: they'll call me.
Matt: me.
Can
Liron: I don't understand.
I mean,
Matt: can, I, can I ask though?
I think I've struggled with this
specific challenge with my son about
a year ago, where it was kind of a
defining moment, I would say, for, for
him and, and for me, where he decided
after joining a team after four months,
or they, they decided that he was
gonna play on the second team after
they selected him for the first team.
And he was training four nights a week.
He was in the commuting two,
two and a half hours a day.
He'd come from a, a, a
pretty great environment.
So, you know, hindsight's 2020
on why we make these moves.
Um, and if I could do it all
over again, I wouldn't, but,
and that was completely on me.
So I think I put him in this position, but
he came to me after that conversation and
said, uh, I don't wanna do this anymore.
And this was a kid who had never
complained about training, didn't complain
about the uncertainty about how much
he was gonna play or who was playing
next to him or what it was gonna be.
And he didn't really talk for two days.
And then he came back and said,
I don't, I don't want to go back.
And I really struggled with, do I let
him grind through this and this is gonna
be a lesson, or is he gonna hate this
so much that he wants to quit the game?
And I decided that I was gonna listen
to him, that he was mature enough
to say, this is too much for me.
It's not that I don't think I can
play, but it's not fun anymore.
And when I heard that, I kind
of lost my mind that he wasn't
having fun and he was gonna quit.
I felt like the risk of him quitting
was far greater than me, than us
finding a different club for him where
he didn't have to commute two hours.
You know, each day and that he
could still play and grow and,
you know, get a better experience.
But I'm just curious, did I, did I
do the right thing or should I have
let him grind through it and show,
showed grit and uh, and stuck it out?
Kim: Well, first of all,
this is a judgment free zone.
We're, we're, we're, you know, we're all,
we're parents here too, and we all make
the best decisions we can in the moment.
Parenting's not easy.
Jonathan: I would say the best thing
that you did, a lot of parents would
react to the, I don't wanna do this.
And that would bring up the emotions
for them, how much time I spend driving
you there, how much money it costs,
the threat of soccer being eventually
over, but whatever emotions that came
up related to that, you were able to
put them on pause, quiet them down
a little bit, and you leaned into
your son and said, okay, tell me why.
And when you open and allow that
openness for the why, not only does
your son then hear that, files it
away in his, you know, brain and
says, okay, when I'm in a stressful
situation, dad's gonna hear me out.
Um, and that's gonna be applicable
for, there's the party and
there's beer at the party.
There's the, I can't drive home tonight.
Um, I'm trying to figure
out which job to pick.
When you ask that, why, then you get to
understand their thinking, their logic.
You can file that away as a parent.
My son usually gets stressed out about
social things or about appearance
or about challenge, and so that you
can push them given that knowledge.
But a lot of parents would hear that, no.
And they would start this combative
argument about trying to get
their kid back into the sport.
And I think, like Kim was saying, you
know, it's great to build resistance
and it's also great to recognize
when a relationship is over and that
it's time to cut bait and that there
are other opportunities out there
that might serve you better versus
banging your head up against the wall
thinking that something's gonna work.
Or on the flip side of it, quitting
something entirely without exploring
the options that are already out there.
But I, and I joke with people all the
time, I'm a trained child psychologist.
When I was working with kids,
before I had kids, I was like,
kids, these parents don't know what
the heck they're talking about.
Then I become a parent and I'm like,
parent, these kids don't know the
heck what they're talking about.
It's so hard.
I Kim me.
We should know best what to do as parents,
and we still get stuck and snagged on
the same things that any parent would who
doesn't have the clinical training as us.
And it was such a humbling experience to
become a parent, to recognize that I fall
in the same traps, the same, um, quicksand
that I've tried to help my parents avoid.
But the best way for me to
avoid those is when I get upset.
I need to stop.
I need to chill.
I need to take a moment so I
can create that breath between
the stimulus and the response.
I can pick and choose how I wanna respond,
but I also let my son unravel himself,
teach me what he needs to teach me so
I can respond based upon his needs, not
responding based upon my discomfort.
Matt: I'd, I'd love to say I
didn't react that way at all.
There was definitely some of
that, but, but I think I, I think
I ended up in the right place.
Liron: You, I mean, I mean this is where
the narrative becomes very complicated,
especially, uh, so my daughter, as I said,
is in gymnastics, but I have no emotional
affiliation with the sport itself.
Uh, I want her to succeed and be happy.
And we've run, we've hit some.
Walls in that, but kind of mature through.
She's a junior now and her path is set.
She's happy where she is.
But soccer is something I love
and it's something Matt loves
and a lot of the parents love.
And it's something where all of
a sudden the narrative becomes
kind of all tangled up between
the kid journey and your journey.
And that's why, as I was saying, as
I was reading the material, I was
I felt like I couldn't be objective
to relay that information because
at the end I was seeing myself and
that's where it's complicated for me.
And it's, and it's not
something, it's something.
So as you kind of try to train your
kid through it, which is, you said
you need patience in all process.
Do you first have to train
yourself as a parent?
That's not a, that's not the
answer I wanted to hear, but yeah.
So I thought
Kim: What I'll say,
Jonathan: at the door.
Check your baggage at the door.
Liron: Check
Kim: I'll never forget when
I first learned mindfulness.
So one, one thing to know
about me is I was an extreme
perfectionist all through college.
Extremely high, high anxiety.
I also had depression.
I had so much going on.
Okay.
But I never forget when I first learned
mindfulness, I remember having this huge
emotion of sadness, of like, I can't
believe I never learned how to be so
fully present like this before in my life.
So I think it's the same with parenting
of like, okay, maybe you're still
learning some of these mental skills
'cause you were never taught before.
It's not your fault, but you
can learn them now and you
can become a better dad now.
Jonathan: Yeah.
I mean, 1, 1, 1 of the things that,
and I'll credit my wife for this.
Shout out Molly.
She would not let me call our son a kid.
She's like, he's a tiny human.
Our son Ford did not ask to be born.
We decided for him that he was
coming into this world, and so
it's our job to take care of him,
but also allow him to have agency.
And Kim knows this.
Even at six years old, I sat my son
down and said, and you know that
you're supposed to listen to your dad.
I said, there will come a time where I'm
gonna tell you that you should or should
not do something, and you're gonna know
in your heart that I'm wrong, and you
have to fight me to make sure that what
is in your heart is what you end up doing.
And I might not know that that moment
is happening, but it will happen.
And I wanna trust you and raise you
so that when that moment comes, you
will fight like hell for what you
think you need to do in your life.
And so those moments of friction
between parents and their offspring,
some of that is really building
independence, is building maturity.
How do I yell and have an argument and
a disagreement with my parent, with my
care caregiver, somebody that I love?
How do I fight and advocate for
something that I truly believe in?
Think of all the great athletes,
soccer players that we know.
There's probably a point in
time where they had to condense
somebody that this was their dream
where they had to fight for it.
They had to disappoint a loved one.
They had to get in an
argument with their parents.
They had to steal money
to get soccer cleats.
They had to convince them to drive
three or four hours to practice.
Like those moments are coming
for all of our children, and
we have to be open enough.
We have to deal with our baggage so
that we can listen and pause in that
moment and say, maybe you're right.
Or how do we make this complicated
thing work so that you can be a
participant in that moment versus
creating a permanent fracture where
your kid's like, well, forget this.
This person doesn't understand what
I need, and I have to remove them
so I can get to where I want to go.
Kim: I think the biggest issues we
see are when youth soccer parents
cannot differentiate themselves from
their child, so their child successes
they identify with as their own.
This is why, and, and we see this in
hockey all the time, where like you
see the people, like the parents who
played hockey and had their own careers,
they're not doing that to their kid.
It's the people who didn't necessarily
have it or maybe fell short.
I mean, some of them do.
Let's, you know, we, we won't
generalize too much, but, but it's
those parents who are living vicariously
through their child's success that
that's become so, so damaging.
And we see it all the time, right?
Where they're pushing their kid to
this level because, you know, it, it's
like, it feels like their own success.
It shouldn't.
Your kids, it's your kids' success.
It's your kids' stuff.
You're separate, you're the parent,
just like Jonathan was talking about.
Like you're just there to be with
them and support them through
their life that is their own.
And it's, it's a hard thing to do as
kids go from, you know, babies to youth
all the way up to teenagers and you
know, now we're at this point like with
these teenage kids that pretty soon
they're gonna be out and they're gonna
be making their own choices.
And it's a scary thing for parents.
And I think they tend to latch on
sometimes and, and over identify
with their kids' successes.
Liron: I, I, we, a lot of things that
come up is the car ride home, right?
So, Kim, I'm gonna ask you 'cause
because You have experience in hockey.
You're a coach, you're with
your kid in the car, something
didn't go right in a game.
They're sitting upset.
Are you able to check the
luggage at the door or you are?
gosh,
Kim: had to my kids, so all like,
I've just, I feel like I've learned,
just, I've seen the, the worst,
like I've just seen, you know, the
worst parenting you can imagine.
And when I start to feel myself
attacking my kid, and I'm not saying I
haven't, I've, I've done bad stuff too.
I'm not, you know, perfect.
I'm very far from it.
But it's at the point now where all I
want for my kids is to love their sport.
It really is.
And to work hard at it.
I do want, that's where the, the little
tension comes if I see, all right, you're
not putting in your a hundred percent.
That's when mad mom comes out.
But I, when they come home from
a game and they've made a mistake
not played well, and it's not
an effort or an attitude thing.
If it's, if it's an effort or an
attitude thing, they're getting the
mean mom because that they can control.
But if it's a. Total, like just they
had a bad game, which kids have.
am just saying to them that the
tried and true line, like, oh,
I'm sorry, like that, you know?
Sorry.
You don't feel like you
played all, you know what?
I just love watching you play.
It's just so fun for me to watch you.
I just, I literally try to say that
to my kids as much as I can because
there's too much pressure on them,
especially the higher level they play at.
Like, they feel like if they
make one mistake that they
had a bad game, and it's sad.
That's not what sports is for.
So
Liron: you, and you're able, you're able
to, you, you're able to recognize if
something is effort based or something
is, like you said, a random occurrence
or that's a, that's also a, a tough one.
Kim: it's a tough one.
It's, I'm not saying I, I can all the
time for sure, but I, I think for me
that's an important distinction because
that's my value system attitude and
effort is more important to me than,
you know, achievements and success.
So for me, that's, that's why
it's fine for me, but I'm not
saying it's fine for every parent.
Jonathan: Yeah, one.
One of the strategies that I use.
Is this idea of when somebody's in
a bad place, car ride home, stressed
after the game, thinking and asking them
when you have that relationship, do you
want comfort or do you want a solution?
And so this was taught to me a while ago.
'cause they might want a solution.
Hey dad, what did you see?
You know, teach me and, and help me
brainstorm and, and debrief about this.
Or they might want a Big Mac, they might
want food, they might want their Gatorade,
they might just want their iPods.
They could sit in the back of the car
and just zone out for a little bit.
But if we pick comfort when they want
a solution where misaligned and when we
pick a solution, when they want comfort,
that can be even worse because they're
pulling for us to be that parental
figure that gives them the hug, that
holds them close so they can, you know,
feel us on them and feel that support.
And when we go to, well, this is what
I think you did wrong and this is
what I think happened, we're really
missing a bonding opportunity for them.
So as your kids get older.
You can really ask that moment.
But the also the thing that we, Kim and
I tell people all the time, when they hop
in your car, their body's stressed, their
heart rate could still be jacked up, their
body's sore, their adrenaline's running.
So if they're punchy after soccer
practice or after a game, it might be
that their body needs to calm down.
Their parasympathetic nervous
system needs to kick in.
And then you can have the
conversation about their appraisal
or their assessment or the debrief.
But if you're asking them that where
their heart rate's still high, their
adrenaline's still coursing through their
blood and they're still like in killer
mode or fight or flight mode, you're not
gonna get the response that you want.
And they're not gonna necessarily
be responsible for their actions.
Liron: Our vitals are also in a
danger zone, uh, right after a game.
This is not, uh, yeah.
No.
So much to digest.
Um, wow.
I was going through the material, I
was thinking, okay, there's some course
corrections I can take and, and this
is, there's a lot for me to learn,
but part of, uh, and, and you put it
in there, part of game time decision
is a split second decisions, right?
So if, if you had to kind of
simplify it, a kid makes a mistake
on the field, there's that kind
of immediate kind of gut punch.
Where does the training
come into effect then?
the mental training?
Is it before a game?
Is it something that is.
Slowly taught for them to
react a certain way after a, a
very intense moment in a game.
Jonathan: So I, I would say for that, one
of the things that I would wanna train
away is you can make an error, but I
don't want you to be an error repeater.
And when you're an error repeater,
that can often mean that you make a
mistake and you're not gathering data
from where that mistake came from.
It could be an effort mistake,
it could be a positional mistake.
It could be tactical.
It could be technical.
So when you make a mistake, can
you extract that data so that
that error doesn't happen again?
Or you're an error repeater because you
make a mistake, your confidence goes down,
your self-esteem goes down, and you're
more susceptible to making a mistake again
because you're becoming less resilient.
So when it comes to avoiding mistake,
I normalize that, hey, error's gonna
happen during the course of a game.
What we really want to do is learn from
each error in the same way that we get
excited about learning from each success.
So when I make a nice cross through
the middle, I wanna figure out
how the heck did that happen?
Also when I don't, I wanna be able
to say, okay, I was too late with
that last touch, or I took too long
of a dribble on that last dribble,
and that's why the mistake happened.
It's not an indictment
on who I am as a person.
The mistake didn't happen because
I'm stupid, or I'm unlovable
and nobody on the team loves me.
It's that I had a bad touch, or
there was a really difficult, you
know, pass coming in and nobody could
have made a shot and I at least got
my foot on it and made an attempt.
So being able to have that dialogue,
take the um, persecution out of the
situation, and do more of that analysis
so you can figure out what's going on.
Kim: Yeah, I like to do a really
specific analysis of the mistake
with the athlete after the fact.
So, you know, let's say, um, I don't
know, let's say it's, it's, you know, I'm
a doing it as their mental skills coach
rather than their actual coach, right?
So I might, afterwards they
might talk about a mistake
that they made in the game.
Okay.
Maybe they.
Took a shot and missed the net.
Okay.
So I will say, okay, let's talk
about, let's talk about that right
after you, you know, missed the goal.
What, what were your
feelings in that moment?
And then I'll have them
describe those to me.
Like, I was pissed off, I
was angry, I was embarrassed.
I was, whatever it is.
'cause there's a lot of
different emotions it could be.
Right.
Okay.
When you felt that way, what then
thoughts did you have that were,
that were associated with that?
Like what were you
thinking in your head then?
It was like, I was thinking I suck.
I can't believe I just did that.
Like, that was terrible.
Okay.
What was your body doing
after you were thinking that?
Well, I just went like, ugh, and like
threw my shoulders back and I was just
like starting to like, you know, tense
up and get, you know, get more heated.
Okay.
Then I would say, okay, so now.
How did that make you feel after
you behaved and acted like that?
What did that make you feel like?
And then it's usually, well, I'm, I
felt more angry, more embarrassed.
And then how did that make you think?
So see the vicious negative
cycle that can happen.
So then what I try to do with
athletes is say, okay, now let's
figure out where we can intervene.
You can intervene right after you make the
mistake and have that, you may have that.
Initial reaction, but it's, but if you
start to react, like feeling like, oh,
I can't believe I did that, then you can
intervene either cognitively, like with
a thought change, or you can intervene
behaviorally with something that you do.
So a thought change might be
like, okay, I'll get the next one.
Or, you know, just using a queuing
word, like, uh, like a reset word, like
next play or something like that to
get you back in, back present again.
Or your body language.
If you start to slump your shoulders,
it might be like, oh, I gotta get
my shoulders back, or I've gotta,
like, run fast to get, you know,
uh, to get the ball back to, you
know, whatever it is that it is.
So it's teaching them, because then
if you do that, then you're gonna
feel a, a, you know, it's gonna take
away some of those negative thoughts.
So I try to really kind of like show
them like that cognitive triangle,
how those thoughts, feelings, and
behaviors all interconnect and how
they can make changes that they
can control so that they can help.
Maybe you can't change your feeling
in the moment, but you can change
your thoughts and you can change your
behaviors to impact your feelings.
Liron: Yeah, we had a, we had an academy
director here, uh, a couple weeks ago, and
he said something that you just mentioned.
He said, well, if, when he's
looking at a player, if they make
a mistake, it's a non-issue, of
course, but if they make the same
Matt: mistake,
Liron: then there's something that's
a little deeper than for them, a
skill level or, and it's, it's,
Matt: or understanding.
Yeah.
Um, can I have a question?
How, um, the challenges that you see
with youth athletes, how much of it
is actually brought on by the athlete
themselves and the pressure they're
putting them on themselves on, or
the environment they're in, whether
that's at home or with their team?
Kim: Well.
I also look, I always look at
the athlete as a person within
environment context, right?
I don't think, you can't look at a
person just solo like insularly, right?
It's person is always affected
by their family, their friends,
their, their physical environment,
their social environment.
It's all intertwined.
So I think, you know.
It's, it's important when you're
talking with the young athlete,
I think, to really examine for
them when they're getting stuck.
Like when what things they're not,
you know, feeling like they're
able to get over or get past
and, and what that relates to.
And I think the way you do that as
a clinician, like a sport clinician,
is by really getting to know and
understand that person and the soul
of who they are and what their values
are and what's important to them.
So it's like peeling back the layers
of an onion till you get like to that
real, like hearty middle where you're
trying to really understand like who
this person is and what they care about.
Because at the end of the day, that's
what's gonna help them learn how to bounce
back and learn how to disconnect their
self-worth from their performance, which
at the end of the day is what's gonna help
them, you know, succeed as an athlete and
also like in other areas of their lives.
Jonathan: and it made me
think about that whole.
Nature or nurture debate that you
sometimes hear about in biology.
And I think what Kim and I believe is
it's nature and nurture for sports and
for young people, which is actually
really great because sometimes it might
be hard to change somebody's biology.
Like I'm just a naturally anxious person.
So that if I was working with Kim,
the best way that Kim might be able
to impact my life might be to change
things in my environment, change the
way that the changing a team, right?
The team's too stressful, the commute's
too long, it's causing too many problems.
So maybe I play at a D three
school, so I don't have the
commitments and the challenges of
NIL and all the other commitments
that I have for a D one school.
So just changing my environment
allows me to actually perform well
because emotionally I'm more centered.
Or maybe it's another change
that could be helpful.
And so we pull on certain
levers based on our training
in terms of how we can impact.
The biology of somebody through cognitive
skills and behavioral skills, but
also make suggestions when appropriate
on the environment, on the nature
or the nurture of where they live
and how coaches interact with them,
parents interact with them, and the
structure of their training that may
best promote a resilient young person.
Liron: So, I mean this, this leads me
to kind of, as we're trying to kind
of wrap this up, but thinking about
the bigger picture, especially since
we have younger kids, what I find very
difficult and I found through the years
is how do you actually recognize as a
parent what is a healthy environment
for your kid or for your kid to be in?
I find that to be always very
difficult because I always tie the
environment to the success of the
environment on scores or, or kind of
a badge or call it whatever you want.
But in a way I'm, I'm sure I missed
a boat on that multiple times, but.
Jonathan: Yeah, I, I think for me it's.
Kids parrot things that they learn, right?
Particularly if we're talking,
say, under eight, under nine.
So if they're starting to echo some of
the positive things that coaches mention
to them, not only the words, but also the
actions and how they cope with things.
That's a coach or a system or an academy
or a team that's infusing your kid
with resilience, building tools, right?
Like they're able to bring, uh, skills
that they learn on the soccer field into
the household and how they tackle their
homework, tackle the, how they tackle
their younger sibling or their older
sibling, how they communicate to you.
On the flip side, if you start hearing
some of the, for lack of a better
word, abusive comments and terms that
a coach is saying to your child and
having your child parrot that back.
and that it might be time to remove
the child from the area, have
a conversation with the coach,
or find other interventions.
of things that I would look for
Kim: I think the main first thing
I look for, or that will become
clear to me is if the kid stops
loving their sport, and if they do.
Then it's like, okay, why?
Let's figure out why.
What is this about?
Because it could be about a problematic,
toxic environment, or it could be
about the way they're perceiving their,
their play and their performance.
So that could be something more that
you can work on, you know, or it
could be something burnout related
where they're, it's about overuse and
they're doing too much, but people fall
out of love with their sport often.
And, um, but for different reasons.
And I think it's about figuring out
why, what's happening so that you know
the proper next step to help them.
Matt: Yeah, I, I mean, I'm, I'm, I
actually believe it's totally normal when
you're trying to, when you're competing
at the very highest level or trying
to to fall out of love, have moments
where you fall out of love with it.
It certainly happened to me in
different sports when I was growing
up, and I think it's normal.
I mean, you commit so much time
to something and, uh, I think the
human nature element of it is bound
to catch up at some point where
you have these feelings, right?
And there's gonna be moments
where you love it more than
you loved it two years before.
And it's the, it's the inverse.
But back to how do you cope with
the ups and the downs, right?
How do you try to keep it as
consistent as you can and avoid
the highs and avoid the lows?
So you continue to be as focused as you
can possibly be on development, and then
ultimately working towards something
you know, you're trying to achieve.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and I think that speaking about
the academy Ball, that is one of the
challenges with players not being
able to play for their high school.
Like, you know, you might be a
great player at the academy, but
you're not getting any playing
time because the academy's loaded.
But maybe going to high school and
being able to play and being able to
be recognized for being a great athlete
and asset to the school, you're bringing
wins to the school, you're bringing
recognition that could do a lot for a
kid's self-esteem and give them a little
bit more juice, a little bit more love
of the sport to be able to carry them.
But I mean, think about that.
If somebody's playing soccer 10 to
12 months out of the year, think
of how quickly they would get
to the amount of soccer that you
all have played in your lifetime,
Matt: Yeah.
Jonathan: like very, very quickly.
Liron: I try not to.
Yeah.
Jonathan: yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Liron: Yeah, so when I was, uh,
thinking about the, the, the idea of
focus, there's, there's a possibility
that there earlier than later that
they're not gonna be able to continue.
Not because they fall out of love with
it, or it could be injury or maybe they're
just not good enough to sustain that
environment that they're in right now.
is this something that you've
kind of prepare them for or do
you just, is it always about No.
You know, be your best, do
your best, it's gonna be fine.
Kim: I think you're always.
always wanna make sure they know
that they're more than their sport.
Like this is this, this
soccer is something they play.
It's not who they are.
Right.
So I think the more you can kind of
ingrain that into your kid's head of like,
you know, there's more to you than soccer.
Like, and I know you love soccer and
that's awesome that that's what you wanna
spend your time doing, but at the end of
the day, it's gonna end at some point.
So you've gotta have other aspects
of your life, other things in
your life that are important.
Um, so I, I think it does need to start
early because you're teaching your kid
self worth and that it doesn't depend on
achievement and that it doesn't, you know,
and that they're not defined by what they
do, but instead by who they are and what's
important to them with respect to values.
It's tough parenting.
Why did we do it?
Why did I do it four
Liron: how come your
Matt: I don't know,
Liron: When I was, uh,
in my early thirties.
Yeah.
Matt: God bless you.
Um, well, I mean, Dr. Jonathan
Jenkins and Dr. Kim O'Brien,
the authors of Mentality wins.
Um, thank you guys so much for being on.
Why don't you just leave us with, with
one thing that you'd love, uh, parents
and, and youth athletes to take away
from this great book that you've written.
Kim: One thing that's hard, huh?
I knew
Matt: Okay, Mo Uh, okay.
Okay.
We, we, we
doesn't have we, we, we,
we, we, we can edit this.
What are, what are the key.
Liron: two.
Kim: I'll say, I'll say the one
thing is it's never too late to help.
Develop your child's mental skills
and ability to manage adversity.
And not only is it never too late, but
it's so important for them to learn the
skills to do it on their own independently
because at some point they're not gonna
have you around to be able to do it.
So this our book, our hope for this book
is that it is an opportunity for young
athletes to be able to learn how to do
some of these things on their own and
learn how to take care of their mental
health so that they can feel their best.
And when they do feel their best,
they'll also play their best.
Jonathan: I would agree with that and just
see sports as a celebration of health.
Your ability to be out there indoors,
outdoors, being a mobile, being active.
How joyful it is to see your
young person do all of that.
And then when they get off the field
and you're in the car, you're in
the bus and you're going back home,
cultivating those moments that are gonna
be special, that they'll remember where
you get the ice cream or you play the
favorite music in the car, or you have
a convertible, you put the top down.
Those are the things that they're
going to remember about you more
so than what was the score of
that game they're gonna remember.
You know, my parent would always take
me to our favorite pizza place after
we played, and we'd always talk or hang
out by the beach or whatever it is.
And so how do we cultivate and connect
this sport that they love with this
really cool, private, unique time with
their parent, our parents, that will then
continue to bond and build a relationship.
Liron: My, uh, my daughter just, uh, she
has a gymnastics meet this weekend, and
she sent, so again, like I said, we had a
lot of ups and downs with, uh, with, with
that sport and, and her development there.
But she sent me, uh, uh, a
song She goes, this is the
song we listened to every year.
I can't wait to get in the car
and just hear that song with you.
And not just for me was, yeah.
So it was, I'm not as bad as I
portray myself to be, but, uh,
Kim: Aw, that's, I love that.
Yeah,
Liron: I'll tell you that I, I felt so
grateful to hear from you and received
a book, and I, I, my wife is already
reading it, which is unfortunate for me.
was trying to keep it
away from her, but I, uh.
Eh, you, you have, you have a, a
mic here anytime when, uh, it's
time to do version two or updates.
And, uh, we will always be in touch.
And thank you really for all your work.
Kim: Thank you so much for having us on.
This has been an awesome conversation.
Matt: Yeah, we can't wait to, uh,
to, to follow you guys and, uh, this
journey that you're both on with your
kids, but also your, your practices.
So thank you for all that you do.
Whew, Matt, you went to a fancy school.
What's the college way of saying, wow?
Anyway, this one hurt in a lot of ways.
Because it reminds us that development is't just physical.
The mental side is the multiplier.
I mean, Jonathan said it best, right?
Feedback isn't the problem.
It's how we give it and how our kids learn to receive it.
And Kim gave us the sideline reality check.
If kids are playing afraid to make mistakes, they can't find the flow.
Without flow, there's no growth.
So next time, if you're on the car, things feel slightly intense
Remember, Jonathan's going question.
Do you want comfort or solution?
And remember the cognitive triangle.
Thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are always connected.
And that's the real two percentage.
So if you're a parent or a coach, go get mentality wins. by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. O'Brien.
It's practical, honest
and it helps.
I think it helped me.
So we'll know next week.
This is the work that keeps kids in the game and helps them excel.
Yeah.
So I'll see you next time, man.
Hopefully I'll be healthier, happier.
And if not, you know, I'm sure it's still, I was just hoping for funnier.