Through The Darkness of Suicide: Grief and Vulnerability with Christy Daniher

This powerful conversation explores the deep grief and vulnerability that comes from losing a loved one to suicide. Christy courageously shares her story of losing her sister Teri 17 years ago, and the profound impact it continues to have on her life. 

While the pain has never gone away, Christy finds strength in being open about her experience and hopes it helps others feel less alone. 

This intimate discussion highlights both the complexity of chronic mental illness and suicide, as well as the importance of compassion, honesty and community in the grieving process.  Teri is pictured on the left, Christy on the right.

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Matt Sodnicar 0:02
Awesome.

So what would you like to talk about?

Christy 0:10
I would like to talk about losing my sister. And the 17 years after that, what I've learned what I felt some of my experience.

Matt Sodnicar 0:23
Yeah. I didn't know it's been 17 years.

Christy 0:27
It almost is, or will be 17 years. Okay. Hard to believe.

Matt Sodnicar 0:31
Yeah.

Christy 0:32
And I met you just before that. I was trying to think how long I've known you. I met you before

Matt Sodnicar 0:37
she died. Really? Yeah. I never knew that.

Christy 0:41
I met you

Matt Sodnicar 0:42
scripting this a little bit. Let's give them

Christy 0:44
two months before when I was training for my first Ironman. Okay. And she died about 10 days after my Ironman.

Matt Sodnicar 0:55
I had no idea.

Christy 0:58
No, she died November of 2006.

Matt Sodnicar 1:04
I was trying to think how long we've known each other. That long. So we're 28. So we met when we were I'm not good with math. But like,

Christy 1:15
I might have been 34. Yeah, and I think the hardest part for me to talk about is that my sister committed suicide, as you know.

Matt Sodnicar 1:29
And that's really all I know. Yeah.

Christy 1:32
Well, let's talk about that. Because in 17 years, I really haven't talked about much. To be honest, there are a few people close to me. But even my family know the situation and we don't talk about it. So I would like to use this time to kind of just word vomit and tell you my story. And as I was thinking up to it for this conversation, I really want to focus on like my stuff. I think the hardest part of me talking about my sister suicide as people want to talk about her death so hard. Like I can tell you that she committed suicide. But all the uncomfortableness that, for me, at least that comes around it is the stuff that people ask you about it. And I never felt comfortable with the answers. You know, you get the questions like, oh, my gosh, how did she do it? Well, she shot herself, she shot herself in the head. I don't want to talk about that with somebody who I don't want who doesn't know, it's one of those if you don't know, then we don't know each other well enough, right? To ask about it. But all the other questions like Did you know why she depressed? All the stuff that goes into why somebody would commit suicide, I struggle with because I think there's a mis understanding around suicide. And that there are indicators or there are signs or there are certain people or there are certain things that they're you can do 25 Push ups on Facebook and prevent somebody committing suicide. And we don't ever get into that. Right. If someone says, Did you know she was going to commit suicide? There's a bigger answer. There's a did I know she had a history of depression and self harm? 100%? Did I ever think she would commit suicide? Of course not. That I know it was happening that night? Not at all. So it's a yes, no answer. I'm not surprised it happened. I was surprised that happened. Does that make sense? And those kinds of things, maybe I think too deep and I should just do the, you know, canned answer, which is how I've kind of survived over the years coming up with a few of my own, like, you know, and I know you better we'll talk about it, something like that. I've probably said that to you a bunch of times.

Matt Sodnicar 4:09
But I've never asked, and it's never been a factor in how close we are. That that's a door that opens if it opened when you unlock it. It's not. I just don't look at that as like me trying to figure out the combination. Yeah, it's never been. I've never thought I've never thought that you thought less of me or didn't trust me or like if it happened, that's when it was going to happen. Yeah,

Christy 4:45
well, thank you for that. I never mean to withhold, it's just not the something I enjoy talking about. To be honest. I've learned over time when people ask me questions that I'm uncomfortable with just ask, why would you like to know? If it's more of a core? Curiosity, it shuts people down than they realize what they've just asked me. Yeah. If somebody says, Oh, well, I lost a sibling also, or I lost my friend or my partner, then I'm like, Great, let's talk about it, we have something in common. It makes me feel less uncomfortable with their curiosity. And,

Matt Sodnicar 5:26
like, they're more empathetic than just, yeah, my family's kind

Christy 5:30
of private, we don't talk about anything important. So for me to do that with someone who's outside that immediate circle is something I wouldn't do with anything with my finances, or how many acres do you have? Or how much money do you make? Those kinds of questions? They all kind of feel the same to me.

Matt Sodnicar 5:51
But was Teri the first time that you'd? Well, let me ask you this? Was it the first time you've lost somebody very close to you? And was it also the first time that you had experienced in any orbit? Suicide?

Christy 6:11
Yeah, um, she was not I had lost my grandmother, two months before Teri died three months before Teri died, which in itself was one of those grandmother was in her 80s. And health wasn't great. It was not unexpected. And kind of the blessing in all of this is we were taking her off life support, and the entire family came in from everywhere to spend the last days with her. And it ended up being about a week. And Teri came in for that. So Teri stayed with me and hung out with me for a week, just a couple of months before she died. And otherwise, you know, we were we talk on the phone a lot. But we didn't see each other more than a couple of times a year before that, because she lived in Phoenix. So, grandma, getting sick and dying. Worked out, worked out. Well. That's not the right way to say it. But it was nice to have that time with all of the family and everybody got to see Teri, which was a gift in in its in itself. So I'd lost grandparents before two other grandpa had passed away. As far as suicide. I had been told that my great grandmother committed suicide. As I grew older, I learned that was more complicated than that. And I don't think it was suicide. I think it was spousal abuse, but it was ruled suicide. Oh, that makes sense. There was an accidental gunshot with her husband there. So I'm not really know that story. But I grew up thinking that she had committed suicide. And I have had other family members commit suicide sets. So interesting tangent to this, in my own opinion, because I don't have any formal education or training or classes or anything around this. I do believe that there are two types of suicide. I think there are situational suicide. And there's what I would call chronic suicide. Someone who has a mental illness or has chronic pain, and contemplate suicide regularly. And then I think there are situational suicide, where people take their own lives, oftentimes when they've done something horrific, you know, mass shootings, killed somebody in a car wreck, financial ruin of 1000s of elderly people, right? people commit suicide when they can't live with themselves. My sister is the first she's chronic. And some of my other family members who had I lost a very close cousin, like an uncle to me a couple years ago. So soon, situational. Older cancer not doing well. Right. Yeah. So one thing about suicide when people ask about it, I always want to know why. And or people always want to know why but I think you have to know that first. Robin Williams was the situation over the chronic, you know, some of the famous people Anthony Bourdain, definitely chronic right. Years and years of depression and drug use. I don't think it happens once and I think people who attempt suicide several times are the chronic types. Right? I think, my opinion, we all have a situational bug inside of us. Everybody has that moment of Holy crap. What just happened? What's my life

Matt Sodnicar 10:01
is Don't fucking cuss on this podcast

Christy 10:11
that takes it now I can speak freely. You saw my restraint up until this point? Yes. It's hard to talk about death and grieving and loss and not cost a little bit, right. Plus, I just have an end. So I think my challenge and talking about it is I need two hours to talk about it with somebody. And it always ends up being kind of a sidebar conversation. You know, you're meet someone, and they ask about your family. And you have to say this, and then the questions go, and I'm like, can we talk about something else? Like, what are my hobbies? What's the last book I read? Anything about it?

Matt Sodnicar 10:54
So that right when we were talking about this couple of weeks ago, in preparation for this, you talked about, let's say, like dating or small talk or networking function, some innocent thing where you just meeting people? And somebody asks, if you had used the example of any brothers and sisters. And in that moment, I wanted to ask about that. If you don't talk about it, do you feel that you're being disingenuous to yourself, or do you feel that you're? What sort I'm looking for? Not dishonouring. Teri, but do you feel that? Like, how do you feel in that moment? I guess I'll just ask that it. Do you have that decision? Do you look at it in that way? No,

Christy 11:46
I haven't thought of it that way. For a lot of years, especially the early years. I didn't tell people that she was dead. I spoke of her as if she were alive. Yeah, I have a sister. She's two years younger than me. I still say that too. And I might follow up with, but she died a few years ago. And sometimes when I say that, because I feel like that's pretty short and concise. People don't go there. Just kind of nice. Only if the suicide part comes up, the people get really curious. Which I think is natural. When people maybe as I get older, it's happening less because honestly, I know you and I are both 28. But people die of natural causes at our current age. Just really odd 20 year olds. But when I was younger, it was noticeable that I have already lost a sibling. And I got more and more questions. And I expect that as I get older, like another 10 years, like everyone's siblings, you know, are cut by half probably. So in that kind of sense. I used to say, Oh, she's in Arizona, like current president, which is probably fucked up. And some doctor would tell me that, but it was easier than initiating a conversation around it. Right? I mean, I do the same thing around divorce if you've been divorced. Yeah. Who asks how many times? You'd never get that question.

Matt Sodnicar 13:33
Your next door?

Yeah, and that's that's one question that I feel in a No way. am I drawing a comparison between the two having been divorced twice? Right. Like it's one of those things? Yep. In any sort of conversation. Yeah, but dating in particular, trying to establish that, you know, hopefully, openness and honesty to some extent, and then, but you're right, that that opens up the storage locker. I'm like, Man, I just thought we were gonna watch the game. And like, I didn't really think we were gonna unpack all of these boxes. But I think it's a conflict with your peace of mind, your state of mind and then your character and your, your ethics, right? Because it's like, what do I do in this moment with this piece of information that has happened to me?

Christy 14:48
I've come to learn for myself is I will always be honest, and if somebody has the inclination to bring something up or the curiosity to talk about it, whether whatever the topic They deserve an answer from me. I'm happy to say, I'm not ready to talk about it. But I also know just especially from dating, because that's the second question people ask you. Yes. Do you have brothers and sisters? You know, how what was your childhood like, or those kinds of things so

Matt Sodnicar 15:17
that it's your boring dumb questions anyway. I mean, there's these first second or third date. That's dumb. Yeah. Yeah. Like I never asked people where they work. Like, where they grew up. There's so much more interesting stuff to talk about. Sorry, I interrupted, you

Christy 15:30
know, you're so successful dating.

Matt Sodnicar 15:37
You are a good day, undefeated.

Christy 15:44
But I have learned, and I don't think I'm over protective. I feel like this is a skill I wish I developed long before my sister died, just to have is that being open and transparent, does not mean sharing everything at first. Correct. And I didn't know how when she first died, how to filter that out. I felt like I had to share it all. And it was too much to share. So I lied. I acted like she was still life, right? When I first met people, and I thought, if we get to a second or date, which is one in 1000, then I would share more, which I feel more comfortable with. Because then it takes a lot of energy from me to talk about that. And then there goes all of the spark and fizz out of a first date. Right? And I'm talking about my sister dying, never felt good.

Matt Sodnicar 16:38
Just a quick question on dating philosophy, right? Are there certain things that even if you met the perfect person, you had this amazing trust relationship? Do you feel that there are just certain things that the partner doesn't need to know about your experiences? Or past especially if they're traumatic?

Christy 17:05
That's a great question. I would say that the depth of my relationship should mirror the depth of information shared. Okay. That's how I would operate. It would be superficial until it wasn't

Matt Sodnicar 17:27
interesting. I look at it. And again, there's no right or wrong answer, and it just popped into my head. But there are certain things you know, growing up, or the other things that it's it has no bearing on how much I trust that other person, I just don't want to relive that in any capacity. Like I've worked through it. I've accepted it like it's not raw, but like, I really don't want to describe any of these events. Yeah. So it was kind of a theoretical question.

Christy 18:02
I think most people have parts of their past that they don't want to share, right? For whatever reason, it's hurtful. It was bad. It's embarrassing. And taking this back to my situation with my sister, the thing I'm missed. I miss most regularly about her. Excuse me, is the ability to call her up and say, will you validate my story? This person does what I'm saying. Tell him this happened when I was eight, right? Because I don't have that person anymore. Without her. She was the one person who knew all my secrets.

Matt Sodnicar 18:47
What was a story that you had her validate?

Christy 18:52
Oh, my goodness. So many Matt. I had a very unique childhood. For many reasons. just growing up on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. We made up all of our own games and and stuff like that. And I could just say stuff like, I had a buffalo when I was growing up. Most people like like, you bought a pound at the grocery store, like nope, I had a buffalo name Sundance. That's awesome. Yeah. And then all the bad stories to like, Oh sure. Just to validate where I am and how far I've come and stuff like that. She was absolutely my soulmate and my best friend. So, which I've had two husbands and I can still say that

Matt Sodnicar 19:49
you one of the one of the things I was thinking about in preparation for this conversation is I've talked about it on this podcast a lot. There's a book called Deep survive. All. And it is adjacent to like stoicism and being in the moment being present things like that. And the book is about people that have survived natural disasters or who didn't. And it doesn't go into like, the gory details about it. So it's not, you know, morbid, like talks about. But essentially, like, it gets to the point here really quick, they talk about the plane crashes, right? And you can't think about getting home for, you know, your anniversary, because that's way too far down the road. You can't go back and recalculate the fuel, because you can't travel back in time. And the thing is just to be like, right here. And so the and this is your conversation, but what, when I'm telling you the story for the philosophy of these questions, is that being present, like after it happened, because you're here, you're dealing with it, you'll always be dealing with it. And to me the facts figures is, at least in my mind, somewhat irrelevant, right? Like I don't you know, the, the statistics don't interest me. So these questions to me are like, what were your moments from then to now and tomorrow about this event? With Teri, what was your first week, like was your first night like,

Christy 21:38
oh, gosh, I don't know if I can do that. Without losing my shit. That was hard. Maybe I'll come back to that.

Matt Sodnicar 21:49
If you want. If your takes

Christy 21:53
me right there, I'm sure. But you bring up a good point. In the the beam present. One of the things that I struggled with afterwards. Like you say, statistics, if you say suicide, people make the next assumptions about it. Without asking any more questions. And it's been 17 years, but oh my gosh, the stigma and the shame and the hurt and the guilt that people have around it is palpable. And if I told people she committed suicide, I immediately saw, Oh, they know things. And I was frustrated by that. Right? It's really hard on my parents, right. And I think I know how much pain I have. And if there's nothing worse than losing your child, I can't even imagine what they feel, right? Because mine is overwhelming. But there was always a lot of, I felt responsible somehow for protecting her with people.

Matt Sodnicar 23:13
And before or after, after, after.

Christy 23:19
Because I didn't want people to make assumptions about her, or things that she did. And I went through all the stages of grief, I was angry, and I was sad. And I thought it was selfish of her to do those things. That lasted a very brief period, until I started understanding what suicide was. Right? And sometimes now, like I imagine it's hard for a doctor to watch Grey's Anatomy without finding all the errors and flaws in it. All the mispronunciations of the five syllable medication. I feel that kind of way, when I watch TV shows about suicide. I look at it and not the documentaries, but just the drama series or whatever, and somebody commits suicide or books or in stories. Because I don't, it wasn't my experience. There are a lot of components to it. That didn't happen for me. And I had a lot of misconceptions about what it would mean. I for instance, you asked about the first week when I learned she died, and I talked to the detective the police detectives because it was gunshot. At first it's ruled undeterminable to undetermined and they have to rule out homicide, right? Because she was killed by a gunshot. So there's a whole investigation that goes through it. And it was quickly decided it was a suicide Right. But, you know, she didn't leave a note. Everyone always asked her to leave a note. When I got home from Arizona, I sat and waited for the mailman every single day for probably two weeks. Thinking that maybe she mailed that letter. But come to find out, only happens in the movies. Very people commit suicide of the chronic chronic sore, I should say, some letters, a lot more situational people might write a letter like, Hey, I'm gonna go, here's my manifesto, this is what's going to happen. Or I embezzled millions of dollars, and I'm gonna go to prison and I've ruined all these lives, you might get a letter from a person in that scenario, because they're not. Because they're ending their life because of a circumstance. And they know how it's gonna affect all the people around them. I think people who and these are my made up words, so. But what I call chronic suicide, they are loved, they feel love, they love other people, they are happy. A lot of the times they have good jobs, they have good relationships, and they still want to die. They're not going to send a letter, and that they're not thinking about you. They're not sitting down, writing a letter to all the people that love them. And that's enough to stop what's happening. That's not enough to stop the train. Right. I don't know a lot of people that know. But my sister first committed attempted suicide when she was a freshman in high school. She slit her wrists, and held them in water overnight, just had little bowls on her mattress next to her with her wrists in it. And I didn't know I shared a room with her. I didn't know. But one of the teachers at school the next day noticed center to the nurse's station had my parents called my parents called me my mom went and picked us up. My mom was furious at me for not telling her. I had no idea. Sure, none. And then when I have talked to Teri's friends and her old boyfriend who was her best friend for a long time, and if it's okay, I'm not gonna say people's names all as far. But he said that Teri told him those cuts on her wrists were from barbed wire fence, which I find silly that people believe what we say because it's, you know, several straight lines in a row. I feel like I could see a girl at Walmart, who I could tell was cutting because she has the straight lines on her arms or legs, right? We've seen now. It's public knowledge what those look like. So it can't believe that someone would see perfectly straight lines on somebody's wrist and like, Oh, of course, barbed wire. But there were several attempts over the years that she made to take her own life. And at no time. Beforehand, did I have any inclination. So I was disappointed. I didn't get a letter in the mail, to say the least, explaining it. And that's part of the whole conundrum of this. If your loved one has a heart attack, gets hit by a bus dies of cancer. I know you have your stories to you know why they died. When someone commits suicide, we get really hung up for a long time about the why. And there's no answer. Part of my healing. And my process was just coming to terms with it's a dumb exercise because I am not getting a hot or cold reading on my assumptions. I have no idea. And even if I guess it right, I won't know I'm right. So it's a dumb game, but we all play it. That was hard for me for a long time.

Matt Sodnicar 29:37
I think the brain I think the brain works on those problems. The brain doesn't like something that can't be solved.

Christy 29:45
Absolutely. Yeah, there was no reason. She had a reason right? And she didn't share it. So I don't know what

Matt Sodnicar 29:58
is when you were talking to about the letter not coming. And the fact that they know they're loved, they feel they're loved. And it's. And I don't know if I've ever told you this when Amy and I were getting divorced, who I still credit with a lot, I credit her a lot with being the person I am today. Because if she had just packed up and bounced, and I didn't go through therapy and find out my attention issues, like, for a multitude of reasons, you and I would not be sitting here, but I do remember that. It was some random weekday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and it was 340 in the morning. And nobody should be awake at 340 in the morning, for any reason, including sex. But I just remember that I didn't want to die. But I wanted to sleep. And I wanted to have my brain not think about this divorce. Right. And I still just kind of remember the clock, like, what the fuck am I doing? And it was, and I was situationally depressed, diagnosed with from a psychiatrist, and then a therapist to, I

Christy 31:28
would say appropriate, I think for sure there are times when it's appropriate to be depressed and sad.

Matt Sodnicar 31:35
And I do remember that being so it was physical. I was physically sad. I could feel it, there was a weight to it. There was a gravity to it that was like, instill kind of sense it a little bit, you know, even now, and it's been power many years. But yeah, and just the fact that they know all that. And then just that it's that's probably a bad analogy, but the scales have just tipped, you know that far.

Christy 32:17
Yeah, I always sorry. Sometimes people say to me, I just can't imagine getting to that place. And I just, like, Good. I'm glad. Yeah, I don't want that for anyone. That's the way it should be, you shouldn't be able to imagine committing suicide, it shouldn't be an option. And I will tell you, I'm certain you and all my other friends had an eagle eye on me in the six months afterwards, because I was a wreck. But one thing I always told people, and I'll stand by it now, of course, I had situational experiences before. Once that happened, and I saw the devastation of everyone around us. And I became the sole responsible party for my parents as they age. And as they need support. I knew that was off the table for me. So even in my darkest hole, those months afterwards, I had everybody reaching out and making sure I was okay. Because I wasn't on the right side of life at that point. I mean, I was in a really dark place. But as much as I didn't want to live, I absolutely didn't have the option of suicide. And I think even today that I wouldn't say governs me, but it's just off the table. My I did worry about dying for a number of years afterwards because I felt this in me immense responsibility for what Teri left me with. And just family responsibilities, right. First Mother's Day, first Father's Day, there was no reminder to get a card or a gift to split, you know,

Matt Sodnicar 34:17
had to Mercer always the worst

Christy 34:19
of the worst, right? Yeah. And we are both kind of careless with holidays and stuff like that. So it became very important that I can send my mom a Mother's Day card or I get Christmas presents for both of my parents because Teri's not going to do it this year and I just send her a check for half

Matt Sodnicar 34:41
make this go away.

Christy 34:45
Like now I got to pick the nursing homes myself. But I felt like what if I die in a car wreck? How does the world go on without me but I've since moved past that was all self imposed responsibilities right? My parents were fine. But I felt this enormity of being an only child or the only one left for a long time.

Matt Sodnicar 35:12
You had mentioned the communication with your parents, did you want to talk about the transformation with your relationship with them after this? Sure.

Christy 35:25
Um, I think there's been a transformation except for the fact that it's no secret to the world. My mom and I have struggled with a closeness of a relationship, I would say, we have gone a couple of years without talking a couple of times. We were kind of in one of those places when Teri died. And it instantly brought the family together. And I would say, part of our connection that we have now is the amount of time that we talk now. And part of it started as I felt this responsibility to be back in it. Now, we don't talk about it. We don't talk about losing her or how or why we still get together and celebrate her birthday. Every March September. What do I close? 12?

Matt Sodnicar 36:25
Oh, well, mine's 11. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And so March is not close to September, you're so sweet.

Christy 36:35
We're trying hard I can see. So going home and spending time together, I will go home and give my mom a big hug. But we don't say we're here for Teri's birthday, or thanks for coming for Teri's birthday. My mom in the past has big birthday cakes that will sit and eat together. The three of us in it's just not brought up. And the nice thing you wish it was? Yes. Okay. There was anyone in the world I could talk about this with. But there are still picture of her all over the house. Like if you walked into their home, you would see two daughters. But I know that they have friends that they've met in the last 15 years that don't know they have two daughters unless you've been inside their home. So I think that's hard. I've absolutely seen and my parents are very private people. So it makes it harder for them, I think to get out and about and address those things head on. So my mom avoided people and go into town for groceries and stuff for a long time. And she has her reasons, but mostly she want to talk about it. And she didn't want to see people. And I think that the stigma of suicide is really hard for parents, even if it's adult children. I've heard my mom ask a bunch of times, like, you know, why didn't she come home? If it was so bad, why didn't she come home? Like, cuz she was good where she was, I don't know how else to explain that. She didn't need anything. You know, her and I talked a couple times a week, all the time. If not, most days, like three times a week we were we had a conversation talked all the time. And we both complained about the same thing. I need to lose 10 pounds, my partner's being you know unsupportive. I hate my job. I don't have enough money. Everything that we all talked about, and sisters talk amongst themselves. We both were like, I got you. I know me too. Like all these things same. But it wasn't the same, right? She didn't have anything above and beyond what I had. But it affected her differently. And that kind of leads to that chronic suicide or idea of it again, it's my own coined, Tao I explain it to myself. So I don't think that there was anything any of us could have done differently. She was loved to the boyfriend. She's had breakups. She was married. You know, she had good people in her life, great people. She was having fun. Fact The last conversation I had with her. I was like on a Sunday. And I was coming down. This was in November. I was going to come down for the January rock'n'roll marathon. We were going to do that together. And we're talking about plane tickets. And I was looking at plane ticket prices and dates and times and so I come in on a Friday night and I was going to look at prices and get back to her now granted back in Day. This was like a big internet search deal, right? So Teri did have great internet access and a home computer like I did, which was so fancy at the time. So I was like, Okay, let me get online and look at tickets. And then on Monday, I couldn't get a hold of her. And that's when she had died. So she was making plans. And I think that sometimes the sun and stars and moon line up with a lightning bolt, and it happens. And I do think that that was the case for that night. I don't know that there was one thing that caused it that day. But she was prepared for it to be anytime at any time, the 10 years before that, shoot the 18 years before that since our first attempt, right? So the idea, and this is me being very cynical. Maybe this is from my own experience, but the idea that you can do call a friend and save a life. The idea of that, I think, is good for situational people. But if someone has a chronic depression, and a chronic intent for suicide, you save them that day, and it will appear again, it's not done.

Matt Sodnicar 41:30
But you're not equipped for that. You don't have the training or the and

Christy 41:37
nobody very few people even know it like it happens to the people that we're supposed to be saving are the people that we love and care about, right? Theoretically, you're in their life. And this is gonna happen anyway. And I think this happens to more people than we all know. You asked me a question when we first started, had I been touched by suicide before? I think anyone over the age of 25 is going to answer yes.

Matt Sodnicar 42:04
I have twice Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you were probably involved with them. Right? Yeah. Speaking of letters, my friend, Tom, who was there for me, when my mom passed away, this was in college. And Pablo, I don't think I've ever talked about this, publicly like this. He lost his dad a few years before, so when he was in high school, so he and I worked together at City Park golf course, and just a great dude. And I had moved to Boulder from Pueblo and was sending out Christmas cards. And it came back because I he was living with his mom, I think he had moved in with his girlfriend or wife or whatever. And the card was returned and sat on my desk. And then he committed suicide, murder suicide, sadly, and that I just that Christmas card Returned to sender weighed 1000 pounds. Because the feeling I had was that, you know, how hard is it to call didn't like we had texting back then. But to call and say, Hey, dude, what's your what's your address? And so I don't remember how long I had that card. But I had it for a long time.

Christy 43:50
Yeah, it's it's hard. And I think everybody experiences it different. And for this, whoever listens to this, I just need that disclaimer that I don't have anything other my own experience for the ideas and thoughts and assumptions I make. One thing I do know is everyone I've ever talked to about it has an experience and feels differently about it. Yeah, I've listened to a lot of your podcasts trying to get everyone but Well, thank you so many of your people have gone through have had personal coaches or doctors and therapists and I've been to some group therapy and stuff but I've really kind of wallowed in this haven't exposed myself very much. And part of that just being I had one therapist tell me I was hyper independent after this, and I do believe that there's something to that in that Was that wrong or

Matt Sodnicar 45:01
bad? No, I

Christy 45:02
think it was correct. I never heard of that term. But it's the idea that you are so independent. And I absolutely felt this. And I'll go into a little bit more about the week after, now that I've caught my breath. Is that by being so independent, you don't rely on anyone. So your likelihood of getting hurt is reduced exponentially. Right?

Matt Sodnicar 45:28
Humans are unreliable. Yes,

Christy 45:30
yes. They leave us they die. They underperform. All of the things. And if you just do it yourself all the time, it's going to be how you need it to be, right. But there's an old quote, like, I'm gonna get it all wrong. But just just because I can doesn't mean I want to feel like that's my life. I can do every single thing on my own. I can take care of my car, I can pay my bills, I can do hard things with my body. I can cook every single meal, the rest of my life does not mean I want to, but the ability to do it sometimes overwhelms us. And it's hard to say, I would love to have some help. Right? I'd love to have some help get through this. So that brings me to, I'm going to do this in chunks as I'm capable.

Matt Sodnicar 46:34
So verse that you're doing great, by the way, you're wonderful.

Christy 46:39
I hope this brings value to I know, it feels good for me to talk about it. I'm trying to be thoughtful of my friends and family who have been around this, but it's out there. So

Matt Sodnicar 46:51
my only concern is that this is important for you.

Christy 46:56
It is it's a good start. It's good start for me. So the week after I was a wreck, didn't go to work. Stay at home. And remember, she was in Phoenix. So

Matt Sodnicar 47:09
when I came, I'll tell you, we're here in Denver. Yeah.

Christy 47:12
I'll tell you about that later. I was in a house that almost matched to this. I was married at the time. And the week after, like, I don't think I took a shower that week. I physically hurt my ribs. I felt like I had CPR done on me because I my ribs hurt so bad from sobbing. It wasn't just cry. Sob like I was I was a wreck. I wasn't putting on clean clothes. I was sporadically eating. I was drunk all the time. I wasn't functioning. And I just watched like law and order 24/7. And I did have a husband, but he was unsure of how to help me. And the honest answer was I didn't need any help. I couldn't be helped. Right? I just need someone to put food in front of me at that point. And about two weeks after she died was Thanksgiving. And yeah, his best friend's birthday is the day after Thanksgiving. I absolutely did not want to go out like I made deli sliced turkey sandwiches for Thanksgiving dinner for us. And that was a big deal. And I did not want to go out in public. I didn't want to go to a bar and have drinks and celebrate anything in the world. Like I hated everybody and everything. And so he went out, had some drinks came home a little bit tipsy. And while he was gone, remember the time we had one desktop computer with the internet, we didn't have laptops and stuff. So while he was gone, I was up in our office on the one computer we shared. Just reading everything I could read about suicide and survivors and death and dying. And I typed in Google Search D for death and dying. And divorce in Jefferson County was the first return on the Google search. I was like I was going to put in death and divorce came up in Jefferson County and I was like, What the fuck? That was our search history. So first night, I didn't drink after she died. I just sat by the front door and waiting for my husband to come home. And when he walked in the door, poured a glass of wine and I said hey, by the way. On our computer, there's a search for divorce in Jefferson County. You want to tell me about that? And he looked at me and he goes, Oh, shit. I know, this is a terrible time. I don't think we should stay married.

Matt Sodnicar 50:17
I was just like to take one for the team,

Christy 50:19
buddy, huh? And, you know, do you want to talk about it? And I was like, I don't even know what to say. And I said, you know, around all of this, I said, can we wait? Like, can we wait till after the service? Or can we wait till after the holidays? Because Christmas and New Year's is right around the corner. This is Thanksgiving weekend, like, can we wait, I will talk about this. He was like, No, I don't think so. And so the next two weeks would be a mix of him not coming home for a night, he'd stayed at a friend's house. And then the next day, he'd come home with a case of wine in all different like relation to me or my name, like Christina vineyards, or you know, something that was relatable to me. So be a case of like, 12 bottles that he picked out specific for me one had a bike one had a horse, like, like Christy's case of wine, and then he'd be gone for two days. And we'd be screaming at each other. And then I came home one day and had just rose petals all the way up to a dozen roses on the kitchen counter. Like, it was bizarre. And I remember one time I had this big, beautiful backyard. And all I did was garden every night after work. And I was out there with my headphones and mp3 player.

Matt Sodnicar 51:47
Geez, you're old.

Christy 51:50
And I was like pruning and stuff. And he comes up and he was like, Do you want to talk? I'm like, I mean, if you don't mind if I keep doing this? And he was like, No, Oh, you missed a weed. Like, you like I'm barely functioning right. But this was the relationship we had. And he says to me about the marriage thing. I've come to kind of a yes, no, I need to know. At this point, I'm kind of like, if you if this is how you're going to treat me in this moment of some of my distress, then the answer is no. I'm not going to stay. But then he says to me, I need to know if you want to have kids. And we were I was 34 at the time. And when we'd gotten married, we kind of both just said kids aren't off the table. Maybe not right now. The the agreement was when I get to 35. If it hasn't been brought up already, we'll make a game day decision. We'll talk about it at 35. So I was 34. So of course we're just living our lives. No rush hadn't got to the part where we had to talk about it. He said, If you don't want to have kids, then I don't want to stay married. But if you do, then I'll stay married. I just looked at him. I laughed and I said I don't want to have kids with someone who could walk away from me. So take it as a no. So that was two weeks after my sister died. And over the next five weeks, we buried my sister my two best friends who you know and love carried me through that next month. And then I moved in with one of them. January because I had a house to sell and then divorce to file and all of that. And yeah, then I lived in my best friend's basement for the next one year. was a rough a rough year

Matt Sodnicar 54:05
you're still here though.

Christy 54:08
Yeah. Yeah. It all worked out. I think that's a good reminder for all of us. We always talk about a hit rock bottom, but I very few people do. I made the mistake. I can't remember what it was but all of this tying into Oh, I remember. So my grandma died. And that fall, my ex and I then husband cut down a dead tree in the back of our yard. And there was one part of it like it had been hit by lightning and there was one piece that was still live but it was a terrible mangle tiny tree. So went to Home Depot and run that a chainsaw and I showed him how to use it.

Matt Sodnicar 55:04
That's awesome. Oh, like

Christy 55:08
raising my hand for this radio audience, but farm girl hair. So we cut down that tree, we made all the bad jokes about bad luck of cutting down a tree, a live tree, right? There's all kinds, it's like walking under a ladder.

Matt Sodnicar 55:22
I never heard that. Oh,

Christy 55:24
I think it's a thing.

Matt Sodnicar 55:26
If you say so. So you had a buffalo

Christy 55:31
Sunday. So cut down the tree. And we kind of joked about bad luck. And then my sister died. And I kind of made a comment to someone like, you know, it can't get any worse than this, like, I am at my rock bottom. And then my husband wanted a divorce. And then in the process, I'm gonna say, I lost my home, I didn't lose it, we sold it. But I lost my home, the home I picked out and built, you know, built to be a home, the yard that I spent years and years turning into something worthy of a magazine. I lost it. So it can always get worse, even when you think you're at rock bottom. Even if you walk away from a plane crash, don't understand that there is an opportunity for one more thing to always happen. So by that token, one good thing can always happen. whatever situation you're in is going to change, kind of get worse, 50% Chance can get better, 50% chance. And that's kind of the human condition we live in as we just keep plugging along.

Matt Sodnicar 56:47
One of my favorite jokes with my son is from The Simpsons, in Vegas, where like Bart's pants fall down on stage or something, and he just goes, this is the worst day of my life. And Homer goes so far. So I'm so thankful to have a very intimate and emotional and a good way relationship with Nick and Elizabeth. And we all kind of share that same joke is that it's kind of lightens the mood a little bit. I mean, appropriately, you know, but yeah, you're right. And yeah, it's taken me a lot of work to realize what I'm capable of, because I remember what I thought was rock bottom, and not being equipped or capable or even willing to want to do anything about it. Oh, yeah.

Christy 57:55
I think as we get older and wiser and just have more experiences, I remember a time where my rock bottom was, I don't know, my second or third knee surgery. And I couldn't ski. Like, that was the worst month of my life. Really. But it was situational. Like, yeah, I think that was when I got cable for the first time. And I thought I did make some changes. I'm like, I don't want to be this person. Luckily, now I can stream everything. So I can still say I don't have cable. But yeah, it's such you up in some ways to be better. I don't ever want to say stronger because it nothing that is broken and repaired is ever a strong. But I can deal with so many different things work. I can sit through any bad meeting, I can sit for four hours and have people be unhappy with the service that I provide or the work that I do. I don't take it personally. And I also know that this is not even bad, because I can tell you bad. This isn't bad. Yeah, I might be uncomfortable, might not be fun. I can always change my situation. And I didn't have those skills before she died, not like I do now. So in some ways there's some learning and growth that comes out of it. But there was a quote I wanted to share with you. And I don't remember how it goes. So let me just paraphrase it sure is that one reason grief doesn't ever go away is grief doesn't represent sorrow. Grief represents Love, and Love never goes away. You know, grieve what you don't love. Right? I've had a lot of people ask me or not, I shouldn't say a lot. I've had people who are Um, who have had their own loss? And we'll say, we'll ask me like, how long does it take how long until they feel better? And I'm here to tell you 17 years later, I categories you is one of my top 10 friends. And we haven't talked about it this much. It never goes away, like I'm crying right now. Never goes away. But that's how much you love that person.

Right? Yeah. You just figured out ways to change your oil and cook dinner and get your groceries.

Matt Sodnicar 1:00:38
Sometimes take a shower.

Christy 1:00:41
I tried to do it a couple times a week, no matter what.

Matt Sodnicar 1:00:50
In preparation for this, I talked to my dear friend Tory, who has personal and professional experience in this and I bring that up for several reasons. She did talk about chronic versus temporary. Oh, yeah. So you're spot on? And I've probably read it somewhere. Sure. Yeah. Well, you're smart. So I mean, you could figure it out on your own. But there's, I would love to introduce you to. And not because of this topic, but because when my phone lights up from one or the both of you, like, the day instantly gets better. It's never not like, you know, a stream of memories or jokes or something or just so I'm not like woowoo. But there is a light and an energy that you too would you have that I think would be a delight to be a part of.

Christy 1:02:07
Absolutely. Some of the best people in my life are friends of friends. And I think if if you know and like her that much, then of course I will. Right? Yeah, for sure. compatible. All right. Yeah. Because we're all special and unique.

Matt Sodnicar 1:02:25
And then you can we'll just talk about how absolutely wonderful. Oh my god. So Matt is this is not on video, you can stop. So

Christy 1:02:37
true. I hope you have a picture on your podcasts of you know,

Matt Sodnicar 1:02:41
I don't think so. Your audience

Christy 1:02:43
is missing out. Why do you think we all sit for this?

Matt Sodnicar 1:02:49
Even the dudes Oh, sweet. Actually, the dads? Oh, right.

Christy 1:02:52
I think you Yeah, I think you are easy on the eye to everyone.

Matt Sodnicar 1:02:58
That makes me so incredibly uncomfortable. Thank you, but that one of the questions I wanted to ask was what? Just for the people listening was two years ago, it came down to the springs. I didn't even know you had moved. And just came down to we ride that. No, we went for a walk. Yeah, we went for a walk and just for a visit. And I had mentioned that. And and thank you for listening, right? Like I don't know if anybody listens. And when somebody tells me they do it. It means a lot. So I really appreciate that. And I had said, if you ever wanted to talk about Teri, it was never going to expire. And if it never happened, that was fine, too. And then he texted me a while ago and what led to your decision.

Christy 1:04:01
I don't have a good answer for that. Oh, god

Matt Sodnicar 1:04:03
dammit, I want my money back. Next question.

Christy 1:04:16
Yeah, I honestly don't like it wasn't late at night. It wasn't one of those things. I didn't have an event that made me think about this more. I always think about you. So that option has always been out there. Part of it is I do listen to your podcasts and I you and I've talked about this a couple of weeks ago in preparation I feel safe around you and you're one of the very few people I feel I'm vulnerable with hope you feel some of that. I know my looks less than other people's. I don't do handstands and stuff like that. But I do I years ago, I got a tattoo on my wrist, and it's a heart with semi colon. And it's from the semi colon project, which may or may not still be in effect. But it's speaks to the idea that for survivors of suicide, that's what the semicolon is, it's not a period, your story's not done. It's continues whether with me, and by general population, I am a survivor of suicide, it could mean that I attempted but it doesn't, it also means I'm was close to someone who did commit suicide. So as a survivor of suicide, I want her story to continue. And I've always imagined that I would be engaged and involved in some type of support system for survivors of suicide. I haven't done a thing to make progress towards that. Partly because it's hard. And I don't feel equipped to help somebody other than I can start a meal train, I can give you a hug, I can call you. But I don't have answers. What I've kind of learned about myself is, I don't want answers from somebody else. So part of why I'm starting here is, I don't have to give any answers. But I want you to hear my story. And what I figured out on my own, because none of this is news, breaking information. And maybe if I had gone to therapy, or gone to group, I would have heard people talk about this. But I didn't, and it's taken me some time, but you maybe I'm also experiencing it more, I don't know if it's because of social media, or because I'm of a certain age, and just more people around me have died for different reasons. But I'm prepared now to say, I'm the lady in the tan House, who will talk to you about suicide. If you're a friend, if you're a family, if you're a co worker. And you don't want to go to therapy, or don't want to talk to professional, like I'd be okay now talking about and sharing it. Part of the thing about the tattoo on the inside of my wrist is it's visible to everyone. You can see it when I go to work, you can see it at the grocery store. I've only had one or two people notice it and know what it meant. But it was an instant connection. And I thought it would be more kind of an impetus than it actually is. It's kind of small. Maybe I should make a tote bag with it or something carried around. But yeah, I'm just ready for whatever reason, and I'm not. I also think that enough time has gone by that by sharing some of the details. I'm not breaching any confidence or anything that would make my family friends, ex husband feel uncomfortable about this. If anyone were to happen across this or happen upon this broadcast. Podcast broadcasts, both short and recording. Yeah. I feel like I can share broadly and not offend anyone.

Matt Sodnicar 1:08:30
I would delicately push back that. You said you haven't done anything to help you had you have to take you have to put on your own mask first before you can help anybody else. So the fact that we're sitting here and you've been pondering, it tells me that you've done a lot.

Christy 1:08:53
And I am emotional slow mover. Two years after you offered, I called you and you are the first person to hear all of this and you still haven't heard all of it. In 17 years, I think maybe my two besties know more than anyone else. But there's a lot of this that I haven't been able to share. So maybe in the next 15 years, I'll be a different person and I'll be running an organization for survivors of suicide. That'd be wonderful. Yeah, we all need a plan B. If work doesn't work out.

Matt Sodnicar 1:09:33
If nothing else you would make somebody's world smaller. Like even those two people that knew what the semicolon tattoo meant. Thinking about the guy was this a year ago? Yeah, it was I was in Utah for the pancake. and walk from buddy Chris. And we decided to have you there he was walking, you know, he was he had had his surgery his pancreas removed and some other organs, gallbladder part of his stomach and all that. And so, we decided to make that day a party which to me met Michel Ladas. So we had, we had the beers and we had no we had the beers, we didn't have any tomato juice or cups. And so I ran over to the supermarket and then grabbed all that stuff. And then very friendly cashier was asking me, you know, are you having a party and I was like, kinda, and I told her about the walk. And then she told me that her husband had died from pancreatic cancer, oh, my goodness, and gave her a hug and then just went back to the walk. But man, if you can make one person not feel alone, ever in your life, you've done? You've done a great thing.

Christy 1:11:13
I hope. So. I remember back to the line, when the the first couple of years that she died about how she died and where she lived and stuff like that. I don't mean wine as far as other things just lying about her. So I didn't have to answer. Yeah, I was very angry and defensive, in all facets of my life. And when we came to the part of how she died, I was quite defensive that if I say suicide, people will make assumptions about her, about me about our family, about my relationship with her why she depressed all of these things. And I felt strongly and I still do, I think that's why I don't like to talk about how she died. Because if she were hit by a bus, if she were in a car accident, she would have been taken equally a sudden without notice, without planning. She was 32 years old, like all those things could have been true still. And you would have felt differently about the situation. And I would have felt differently about the situation. But suicide comes with so much guilt. If she had died in a car accident, I could be grumpy if she didn't wear a seatbelt. And there's the possibility it saved her life. But I wouldn't have had any responsibility. And was suicide, I imposed the responsibility that if I called her more or visited her more, we had plans together at what point I thought she was going to move in with me. I told my husband she was she had some health issues. And being self employed had crappy health care. So I wanted her to come live with me and become an adult dependent. And let me give you my health insurance, right. And we're for the government, I have great health insurance, and wanted to help her. And one thing I think that my sister did, lovingly wish she made everyone around her happy. And if I was happy because she was going to come live with me, she absolutely was that was the plan. But I talked to other of her friends, she was going to move to Austin and play music with one of her musician friends. Right. She had a lot of plans with a lot of people to make us happy. And when she died, I felt like there was something I could have done. And when people asked me those questions, I was mad at them for asking because I already felt that way. Yeah. And had nothing to do with their question about did I

Matt Sodnicar 1:14:00
know I remember guy was doing it, motherfucker. I've

Christy 1:14:03
had some snotty responses to some people who are being sweet. And I can't. I mean, that was just where we were at the time. But I remember one person asked him like, did you know? And I looked at them. I don't remember who it was. And I was like, oh, yeah, I knew but instead I just ordered a pizza and put it in a movie. Are you kidding me? Think if I knew I wouldn't have gotten on a plane and been there and four hours. Of course I didn't know. If I known I would have done something or tried to. That's a stupid question. Don't ever ask that of somebody. This is a little graphic. But when I was in the day after I flew that next morning to Phoenix, I had to go to the police station. We had Ministry of stuff we have to meet with the police department and oh to close out the investigate close out their investigation, get access to her house get access to her car. Because it was a gunshot, everything like her car was impounded, had to go to there to get her keys to her apartment. And then the police let me back up just a minute. Sometimes life gives you those little nuggets that you don't understand until afterwards. One of my best friends for 20 years, my first boss out of college was very, very close. Still one of my bestest friends, my mentor, big sister, all of those things rolled up in one person. She moved to Phoenix for a job, and was only there for like two years. She's in her 70s Now, and we both smile and say she went there to be there for me when Teri died. So I flew in, she picked me up at the airport, took me to her home and drove me around for the next two days. Wow. But we went to the police department together, didn't know where or when no one gives you a manual, right? You have a police officer shows up at your house in another state and tells you this happened. And then you have to figure it out on your own. I got on a plane and I went there because looking at but heaven. I'm a good sister and I knew there were things that my sister needed cleaned out of her house before my parents arrived the next day. Right. My goal was to get there before my mom did or my dad Oh my god. First

Matt Sodnicar 1:16:46
when you said graphic that is not

Christy 1:16:48
Oh, well. I'm not to the graphic. Oh, good. Sweet, please. We go to the police station. And I tell them who I am and why I'm there. And they take you to a room and it really is the padded room. It's decorated nicely with a couch in the lamp on the end of the table. But the tape the table lamp is bolted to the table. And when they close the door, it locks from the outside. So I am safely in what is called a quiet room. Right? Weird. So I'm starting to get a little uncomfortable that my friends with me and a cop comes in very nice guy with a little notepad talking to me needs to understand which case I'm there for. Talk about her and what happened. We know it's a gunshot wound to the head. Don't you know, doors were locked windows were locked from the inside. don't suspect anyone else was involved? Did she have any bad relationships bad boyfriend abusive? Anything that I could note. And then the cop says to me, do you know if she was depressed? And I looked at him and I said she fucking blew her head off. What do you think? Like that was the day after? That's where I was. I didn't understand that somebody else might have killed her. Right? I didn't have that capacity. Yeah. That's where I was. I'm sorry that it's kind of graphic. But no. Yeah, that was the day after. And then they said, Oh, well, her case is being covered by a different department. A couple miles down the road, you need to go over to precinct, blah, blah, blah. So my friend and I pack up after

Matt Sodnicar 1:18:47
that's why they bought the lamp to the table.

Christy 1:18:49
That is why poor guy straight face. He just listened to me. So then we go to the next police department and they like absolutely have my sister's case on file. The detective who's working it comes in. They're talking to me, can I please describe any defining scars or tattoos? And I start going through the list of tattoos that she had. And it was a lady and she looked up and she goes, I am so sorry. But it's a different person that we have at this precinct. So we went back to the first one and it was theirs. And then I later on years later started thinking about this remembering it and like, can you believe that they had two beautiful young women both dead at the same time with gunshot wounds to their head and they were confused on which one I was with. That just kind of made it more bigger than me. Yeah. When I realized one city one county has several that match the description of why out there. That was heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. The only thing that is noticeably different at first are their tattoos. That was pretty upsetting. So this isn't a one off. I'm not a one off. No. So that was the first week

Matt Sodnicar 1:20:28
do you remember a day if there was a day where you woke up and eaten temporarily forgot, like, forgetting that you were divorced or forgetting, I forgot that I was divorced or

Christy 1:20:47
forgotten I was married. I feel like those are good days. I can't remember any of them. Um, I have reached over to call her a bunch of times. I did that for a long time. Just something happens or your routine. I used to call her on my drive home from work or that I used to like go rent at West Park after working downtown a lot. And I always call her on the way home hundreds of times I reached down to call her. And I don't know if I remember I don't remember that she died specifically other than just wanting to connect with her. I want to connect with her a lot. But

I still see her sometimes. In what way crowds, grocery stores. I don't see your face. I see her walk away. Like we have distinctive long blonde hair. And we're both tall. So I felt like I've been told my most of my life that I'm easy to pick out in the crowd because I'm so tall and so blonde that it's easy to find me. And I see her sometimes. So

Matt Sodnicar 1:22:23
does that mean anything in particular to you?

Christy 1:22:32
That she hasn't dyed her hair brown? I don't know. I'm not religious in that sort of way.

Matt Sodnicar 1:22:40
It's kind of where I was going. No, no.

Christy 1:22:45
Religion can be another talk sometime. For me, I feel like it's just I haven't forgotten her. And like, she's here. Because you're here

Matt Sodnicar 1:23:21
Yeah, it's hard. Still. It shouldn't ever be easy.

Christy 1:23:31
For a long time, even now, I should say even though I still do it. When somebody asked me I'll just say my sister died. And they'll say oh my gosh, when I won't say 17 years, almost 17 Because I feel again with my projections. My pain is not 17 years old. It hasn't matured, right. It feels like yesterday. And I I worry that the person I'm talking to will assume I'm further along if I think it's a long time. And if if my pain is this apparent it makes sense for two years or four years. But 17 years is you might expect less. Or especially if it just started dating you or something you might think that

I should be in a different place than I am. I'm gonna show you something. Okay, I'm just gonna point see that plants on the right hand side.

Matt Sodnicar 1:24:57
Now the clock Yeah, yeah. The far right. Okay, so

Christy 1:25:01
Christmas cactus. And you can see I have little ones all over the house that Christmas cactus was given to me at her memorial service. You know people bring plants that was given to the family is a plant a gift plant at her funeral. I've since propagated it, I have a dozen of those. I've given them to friends, but I can keep a plant alive for this long, like, my heart still broke. You know, it doesn't? Doesn't happen quickly.

Matt Sodnicar 1:25:42
It shouldn't. It shouldn't like your quote about the grief and the love, right? Why would that? It doesn't add up that that would be better. To me.

Christy 1:26:01
I know, maybe I would feel better if I could do this. And this is part of the reason I don't do more publicly is I can't keep my shit together. It would be hard for me to help somebody without getting into my own headspace and becoming a sobbing blubbering mess with

Matt Sodnicar 1:26:25
is that your expectation? Or do you think it's theirs? Let me know you're being genuine. That's all I'm saying. The group therapies

Christy 1:26:31
I went the leader never cried. The rest of us did. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like if I were to help someone, I would have to be in better shape. And sometimes I can be, but I can't with you.

Matt Sodnicar 1:26:50
I would give yourself some grace. And just say that you're being courageous. And if you're with somebody, that's the hardest step. You showed up, right?

I've had many great therapists. And I've often wondered, when I've been in conditions like you've been in, like, how can you be so neutral? Maybe this part of the training? Maybe it's because of exposure, but like, this doesn't affect you at all? Like I think that's that's one thing I remember from therapy. And I'm in no way I'm casting judgment on these therapists, because they've all been amazing and helpful. But I just remember sobbing in offices and like, it could be talking to a picture or a mannequin. And like, I think you have to have maybe soldiers do it, you know, that you have to have some day distance to it. Completely unrelated, everything we're talking about. But like that was something that as you're mentioning that, but if you just showed up for somebody, you've, you've done 1,000%. And more than what and that that'd be a courageous thing. You know, if you're, if you're a mess, great. They're not going to be in any better condition than you are.

Christy 1:28:36
True. True.

Matt Sodnicar 1:28:40
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, my friend Chris and Karen, when he was diagnosed almost three years ago, they had people vaporize out of their life. Oh, yeah. And I say that with utmost compassion because who knows what people are capable of and what that made them feel. And when I heard that about some people that I knew I was like my first reaction was not judgment. It was like, there scared.

Christy 1:29:16
Sometimes it hits close to home, right? Yeah.

Matt Sodnicar 1:29:20
And this is not wrapping up. I just want to say that you're I've been struggling for the adjectives to that told you this on the phone a while ago about what this experience what's your text meant to me and what this has meaning to me like I don't know honored or valued or trusted like there's not the right adjective for this, but you're incredibly courageous for even pondering this and for you know, two years but you're doing it.

Christy 1:30:02
I don't feel courageous, I will say, especially for your audience, that you are the only person I could do this with.

Matt Sodnicar 1:30:10
Thank you.

Christy 1:30:13
We've been friends, I love you with all my heart, and I can be vulnerable with you and feel safe with you. And I have listened to you talk to other people, I know you. And there is no judgment with you, which is rare. And it's a gift that you give to your friends and the people around you.

And I don't always feel that with other people. I feel like most people, including myself, we lead with judgment,

we make quick judgments. That is human nature. That's how we evolved and how we stayed alive. We are in a instance, we are in a circumstance and we make a quick assessment of what's happening and why and then we react. We're no longer in the wild. Nothing is chasing me. I don't have to make quick decisions or assessments like that very often, sometimes for work, but maybe driving. Other than that, I have time to sit with things and see how they feel. I don't think we do that often enough. What is the old saying? Like? Not every action needs a reaction. Yeah, ya need to practice that more. And especially around this topic, and emotional things, it's easy to make some quick judgments and assessments, which in my own experience are almost always wrong. But we watch too many movies and too much TV. And I mean, I hear I don't know, Law and Order CSI, you know, they're always investigating deaths, right? Crime TV, half of all deaths on TV. Was it a suicide? Or was it murder. And I get a little annoyed with those because again, I'm the doctor watching er, Grey's Anatomy. But I see the family in the room, and they're all upset. And they say, this could not have been a suicide. She loved her kids more than anything, and must have been a murderer, go find the ex boyfriend, he was so abusive. And I want to scream back at the TV. And sometimes I do. You don't have a clue. If she was suicidal or not, I can tell you by looking at your character, you don't know you can't make that statement. She loved those kids. It has nothing to do with it. She had everything to live for also have nothing to do with it. And I think those assumptions are then what we take into when we find someone in our life who commit suicide takes their own life, we immediately jump to Why didn't you love your kids more? Why were you happier? Didn't you know I loved you. If I called you two more times a week, what could I have stopped it we make all these leaps of assumptions that are just not even close to being true. And the person who were mad at or saying this to is wherever you believe people go after death, just shaking their head saying you're missing the point. You got it all wrong, quit watching TV. Go to a therapist. And I spent a lot of years in that cycle.

Matt Sodnicar 1:33:48
I sincerely appreciate your compliments a few minutes ago and my judgment stopped when I stopped judging myself. And that was a very hard thing to do.

Christy 1:34:03
That sounds very mature of you emotionally mature

Matt Sodnicar 1:34:13
random semantic question for you. Does to suicide or killed herself or death by suicide? Does that make a difference? I know I've heard it. phrased differently in certain aspects. Does it matter to you? Do you think it matters to survivors of suicide?

Christy 1:34:36
That's a very thoughtful question. I haven't given it any thought. It doesn't matter to me. I get a little bit tight in my throat when I have to say the words self inflicted gunshot sure which is what is on people's death certificate because It gives away all my secrets right up front. That was that's hard for me to think about. It kind of does tie into like gun violence and whatnot by, because some of the gun laws and stuff. I grew up around guns. My sister and I cute little story about guns grew up on a ranch. So of course, we always had guns and carry guns in our cars. Everybody did it was safety and it was more mostly for hitting a deer on the road or running across the cow with a broken like. So it was necessity, it was just ranch life. open carry state. So most of the ranchers, every cowboy I've ever known has a gun on his belt. Like it's not a political thing. It's just a safety and necessity, not safety from people. I think that's the difference. We're not those type of people are not protecting themselves against people. It's mostly to put an animal down if needed. And so, when we were little, because we had guns in the house, my parents been very proactive, made sure we knew how to use them. were terrified of them understand the replications we were, you know, bullets train our own animals. So we knew what guns did. And we got our hunter safety card. I was nine. And Terri was seven the first year she took it. But she didn't pass. She missed it by one question. And remember, she was seven? And the question she missed when they read it. It was if you shoot a deer with a bow and arrow, what is the cause of death and was multiple choice and the correct answer was hemorrhaging. Seven year old didn't know it. And when the instructor asked her, do you know how a deer dies when you shoot him with arrow and she says he bleeds to death? So she went back and took it a couple months later knowing the right answer and she passed her hunter safety card test is seven. So we were we were what I can't think of the word, we were able to effectively shoot a 22 at the gun range, right? So we were capable with guns at a very young age and always extremely safe. Very important in my household gun safety. So we weren't abusers. And when I talk about gun regulations, and gun laws, and gun violence, it never occurs to me that my sister died of a gunshot wound. Because it wasn't gun violence. Wasn't the gun that killed her. I have guns in this home. We've always had guns. She was familiar with them. If she used a gun it was with the intent of knowing that it would kill her because we know what that is. Right? Yeah. But I don't tie the two together in some odd fashion in my own head. Gun violence is different. It's hurting somebody else. And gun restrictions wouldn't have saved her life. Sorry, a little tangent there. But I'll never forget little seven year old Teri like not knowing what hemorrhaging was. I still couldn't spell it.

Matt Sodnicar 1:38:37
I didn't know that. I was 20 years old when I learned that. It makes sense, though, right?

Christy 1:38:45
Yeah, well, tests are made for adults, but living on a ranch. My parents are really good about rules and wanting to make sure we were safe, right? Well, in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, there. There was no playing with guns in our household. That's how my sister died.

Matt Sodnicar 1:39:09
What else would you like to talk about? Or do you need a break? You want to stretch your back? What do you what do you

Christy 1:39:14
think I need just a quick break. And sure. I don't know how much more I have to share. Once you have more questions, you always have the questions. Let's take it just a break. Okay.

Matt Sodnicar 1:39:30
plan sponsors. This would be a Squarespace so we'll be right back to commercial please.

So what was the other thing you wanted to talk about?

Christy 1:39:45
Two things First of all, let me go back. I remembered why I reached out to you. I found this show on YouTube. Not the TV just the free one. And it's called soft white underbelly. Oh, I've

Matt Sodnicar 1:39:58
heard about that. Yeah. haven't seen it. Oh my goodness.

Christy 1:40:01
This man, Mark, I don't know remember his last name. He interviews people, often people off the street or people with unique stories. Yeah, okay. And it's simply a person sitting on a stool with the cloth backdrop, you never see the guy doing the interview. There's no preset questions. He starts with the two or three things at the beginning, like, tell me about your childhood. And then people spend 45 minutes to two hours telling their unique story. And it made it's hard to watch. Right? I don't know why when asked to tell your story. We share the hard stuff. But I've never seen a good one. I've never seen a happy story. I've seen some happy endings and some good experiences. But they're all people talking about the hard things that happened to them. And I have come to appreciate that. Those are what make us who we are. It wasn't winning the state championships in basketball, it was when you blew out your shoulder and your college plans changed. And then you're all of a sudden not going to be a pro. But you will tell girls that for the next 20 years. Right? Oh, cool Rico. Those are the stories that make us who we are. And I watch those from time to time, I can never watch two in a row because they're just heart wrenching. And I feel like I'm kind of doing that with you is telling you my story. I had an opportunity to tell you anything in my life. And I wanted to talk about Teri suicide. I think that is just something I've noticed about humans.

Matt Sodnicar 1:41:49
But that could take me on a whole stoic journey right there is like, it's not what happens to us. It's like, that's how we respond to it. And one of these quotes that I found that I'm gonna butcher it as well. It's that must say it's Marcus Aurelius. I'll fact check it but think it was, you know, he envied the person who's never been tested to find out what they're made of. That's, that's the essence of it.

Christy 1:42:19
I think you have to be 12 years old to be that person. Yeah.

Matt Sodnicar 1:42:24
Yeah. Yeah. And I remember when my mom died when I was 2122 that I thought the world that I was gonna get, and I was owed a free pass. Like, I've been through my tribulations that I was good. And then, you know,

Christy 1:42:47
you can always get worse. Yeah, that's interesting.

Matt Sodnicar 1:42:56
What was the other thing you wanted to mention? The

Christy 1:42:58
other thing I wanted to mention, and I forget how it came about, but I was thinking about what we share with people. And I'm sharing a lot with you today. But the only other sharing I do is on Facebook, Instagram. Twice a year, I put out a post about my sister. I think all the people are friends with me now expect it once on her birthday once on the day she died. Which could lead me down another interesting little path if we have time.

Matt Sodnicar 1:43:32
We've got all the time. Unless you fill up Google Drive, we're fine. Okay.

Christy 1:43:38
Hopefully you have some cloud storage there. Yeah. Good. I put out there that I lost my sister to suicide once a year, during ironically, her birthday is suicide awareness month, who knew September so it's easy for me to one year I wrote a thoughtful post what I thought was thoughtful of like the 10 things not to do or something corny like that. And I just repost that every year. And I am sometimes disappointed that I don't get people reaching out to me. I get a lot of reactions to that post. A lot of hugs, sending you love. We miss her that kind of thing. Nobody reaches out to me and says, Hey Christy, I didn't know this about you. Can I meet you for a glass of coffee sometime? Never once and I find it interesting, truly interesting that I feel I have been so vulnerable and exposed my soft white underbelly to the world and I get like a bunch of hug emojis and I don't feel that I've touched anyone because no one reaches out. And then I have to realize like or ask myself, Why am I being vulnerable? Did I share? Did I make the offer to have someone call me for coffee? Of course I didn't. And yet in my head, I'm like, How come nobody asked for coffee? And then I never once offered, I'd be happy to meet you for coffee. Right? So just the human expectation that we have in some of those things that we do in our head, and then we're frustrated that nobody knows what's in our head. I feel like that happens a lot around grief, just in the big bucket.

Matt Sodnicar 1:45:45
So it's an enlightened realization that you had, because I was waiting to see where that ended up that that story ended up for you. And when I was leading sales teams, I would tell them that the only email you send to a prospect that does not end in a question is the one that says thanks for your order. From the time you meet somebody through the entire sales process, it's like, Hey, when are you going to sign that contract? Do you have any questions about the pricing this, this, this and this, and you've solved the problem yourself? And if you and I don't know this for a fact, but I think there's a psychological element about seeing a question mark. Again, that ties back bigger picture to solving what happened with Teri and anybody that does this commit suicide. It's a unsolvable unknowable. problem, you never gonna get the answer. But that question, Mark, I would encourage you that when you post, September 12, will you please reach out to me for a coffee or a drink? To talk about this? Yes. And then they knowing the people we know, they think they're going to get a very different reaction, because this is something where, like, I knew one thing that was going to happen today that I was going to be here. And that was it. Because you asked me to be here. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say. But you asked, and I showed up. And so I think that he for that. I love you, too. Thank you. i But maybe other people don't know that. That's the only next step you need to do. And if you give them that, that answer like, will you please come have a drink with me and talk about this? Because I want to? I know

Christy 1:48:11
I have been closed off. And because I didn't want to talk about it. Yeah, right. I I'm joking about therapy. But one thing I know about therapy is if I sit in front of somebody, and they ask a question, my personality, is I want to solution. That's what I do for a living. That's what I do. For in my brain. I can't have a next door neighbor talk to me about a problem about one of their plants without coming back to my house researching that plant and figuring out how to fix it. I'm a fixer. I come up with solutions. And if I sit in front of a therapist, and they doing the fingers, asked me how I feel about that. I'm like, I'm paying you, you tell me what's the answer? What do I need to do, right? But if I go to group therapy, or if I talk to some groups I did go to when Teri first died, I went to a grief therapy group through Denver hospice, which was free. And it was amazing. And the first several visits I didn't say a word. And it was interesting or awkward, both because I was there for losing my sister to suicide, but the other people in the room lost their their people for all different reasons. There were a lot of people who had been in hospice who died, and their spouses and siblings were there. So we all had different cause of death. But we all felt the same way. And that was unifying to me because it took away kind of the embarrassment and shame of suicide. And acknowledged for me that doesn't matter. Got her how she died.

Matt Sodnicar 1:50:03
Left, that was gonna ask if it mattered like in that group, no. And it doesn't matter to the end of the day, I mean,

Christy 1:50:13
it only matters for the story, it matters to the person receiving. And that's where I get a little defensive. Because I don't want any judgment or assumptions made based on cause of death. Which, I guess if you're a police officer or a prosecutor, that does matter. But if you're the survivor, it doesn't, she's gone. She's gone. And I didn't get notice. And I don't know why. Right. So the group therapy worked better for me. Which is why, if I can put this out there to the universe, I would share my story because I don't have any answers. Just like a therapist. I only cost $1 A glass of wine per hour.

Wine can happen at 10am if we need to, like if that's when you're opening is

Matt Sodnicar 1:51:16
not opposed. Just putting that out there. I just want to help. Snacks are good.

Christy 1:51:25
Croissants and wine, I think they balance maybe Chardonnay. All that butter. Yeah, yeah. In that. I think we spend so much time looking for answers. And I want to be the first person to say after 17 years. I hope everyone heard today that there are no answers. I don't know any more than I did back then. And sometimes I hold myself back because I think I have to have an answer. Because for everything else in my life, I do. I know. And I don't want this. Yeah. And as soon as you stop looking to fix it, or answer it, it gets easier. Like it for me just to say I don't know or don't understand. When I listened to these people's conversations on soft white underbelly. As the audience you can see where the life turn went. And we're like, armchair quarterbacks, right? We're sitting there in our sweatpants and our Cheetos yelling at someone for dropping a pass. You guys run in 40 miles an hour and catches it with one hand almost right. And yet we are I can't believe he made that mistake.

Matt Sodnicar 1:52:42
Same thing. Judgment. Yes. When we expectation you that you can title

Christy 1:52:47
this judgment. I feel like when we watch when I watch those interviews, or I look at internalize it on myself, it's all based on on that is it's easy from the outside to say, oh, you should be doing this in your relationship in your work. Talking to your manager, I can tell you what you should say to that guy. When you're in it, it feels different.

Matt Sodnicar 1:53:14
One of my favorite books is called Designing your life by Greg McCown. And he talks about two types of problems. There's anchor problems, and there's gravity problems. So a gravity problem and he actually uses cycling analogy in the book that, you know, the hill and climbing up the hill. And as a fellow cyclists, you know, this, we can't buy 10 pounds off a bike, we can get 10 pounds off of us. But that's a gravity problem. We cannot change that, right? And why Teri committed suicide is a gravity problem. We'll never be able to change the equation to solve it. And that's just one of the hardest things. And then not to tie this back to more sales books. But there's a dude that used to be a FAA crash investigator. And he wrote this book called deal crash to kind of like for sales teams to deconstruct why deals failed. And he said there's never a smoking gun. Sorry for the unfortunate analogy, but he said that there's not ever one thing that just boom plane crashes, right? Yeah. They don't hit the engine off switch and correct, right. He says there's 15 things that led up to that that just cannot be isolated. And I've taken that to look at it other things in my life where it's like, it's never one thing. There was never Tom not getting his Christmas card. It was never, you know, you know, calling Teri twice that day or twice that week or whatever. And

Christy 1:55:18
I really do think that there is some alignment in everything cosmic that makes it happen that that was the day it happened for her. Because if it wasn't that day, it could have been the Saturday before, or it could have been two years later. But you wouldn't stop going to the grocery store. If you knew you were gonna get caught killed in a car wreck on the way there. Like that doesn't change it. Right? It could have happened any other time. Or it would just happen to the car behind you. Right? Someone runs a red light, they didn't kill you they would killed the next car.

Matt Sodnicar 1:55:55
That's something else I've thought about too. Is these near misses happen all the time, and we just don't see him. We

Christy 1:56:01
don't relate them to death. Yeah, I mean, how many times if you slammed on your brakes to not hit a cyclist or pedestrian, or the car that was coming your way? And you never I don't think they're life changing anymore? They happen so often. Yeah. I drive my car down the road at 90 miles an hour, right? Nearly singing to the radio. No time am I thinking I am taking my wife in my own hands at this moment. doesn't even occur to me. I'm going someplace. Yeah. And whether I get there or not is unimportant at the time, because it's not on my brain. We don't compute that.

Matt Sodnicar 1:56:45
I wanted to point out something that I'm not sure you noticed from the start of this conversation to like, the longer this progressed is that when we started you were kept pushing the mic towards you. And as you got more comfortable, and I think more confident you were leaning into it. And it was noticeable your confidence and your comfort level. And that was very cool to see.

Christy 1:57:23
Thank you for saying that. I'm sure it's apparent to anyone listening. I was really uncomfortable to get started today. When I reached out to you a few weeks ago and said, Okay, I'm ready. The next morning when you texted back and said cool. I was like Oh fuck.

Matt Sodnicar 1:57:46
But you knew that was coming now.

Christy 1:57:49
I expected you to but then I was like, What have I done? What have I done? And then a couple weeks ago, we talked about how this would look you offered your security and your safety and options to never publish this. And it made me feel safe and vulnerable. And then throughout the last couple of weeks, I think you and I talk like do I make an outline? Do I list topics and you're like, do whatever you want. I do everything on Excel spreadsheets or calendar invites Matt, you know this, I am known for this. I have I have some OCD. I like to control. And I didn't write a single note for this. Over the last couple of weeks, I've thought of things I wanted to share or thought of things I didn't want to share thought of how I would structure it, whether it be I didn't want to say any names or point out any people like I made that a commitment to myself. Sure. But this is all freefall. Literally. I'm not I don't go into things unprepared very often. And I didn't know what to do with this. So thanks for noticing that I feel better about it.

Matt Sodnicar 1:59:14
It's one of the most courageous things I've ever witnessed.

Christy 1:59:20
It was hard but like I said, I couldn't have done it with anyone else. And I'm hoping that we decide down the road that this is something that can be shared because I want to be more comfortable with. With sharing, I can't change any of it. But I do know it's hard to not share it equally. Try not to cry again. But being vulnerable is hard. For me, I mean, I can be vulnerable in a lot of ways. Like I put myself out there in sport, knowing I'm never going to win. And yet I still keep spending 1000s of dollars on the race fees to show up and be the last of age groupers. Right. I feel like that's kind of vulnerable and silly. I'm never going to win anything, I might win a raffle, I should say that. But I do a lot of things where I have the potential to fail big and publicly, everything's on the internet now. But this is one thing I haven't historically been able to expose. And I hope that this changes that for me.

Matt Sodnicar 2:00:48
When the Voyager is ready, the guide will appear.

Christy 2:00:53
Make sense?

Matt Sodnicar 2:00:57
You're wonderful, then. I don't know the right adjectives or emotions to describe, but I'm honored and impacted that you wanted to do this.

Christy 2:01:13
Well, thanks for giving me an opportunity and a path to do this. Because I'm not creative enough to have come up with a way to have this time together. And feel compelled to share to be honest, and vulnerable. It is scary. It's always scary. But we do it in so many other ways, right? We do it to help everybody else. I would love to help a little kid in a scary situation. I foster dogs over and over and over that are terrified and think that it's their worst day of their life. Right. And I'm happy to help everybody get through theirs. But I haven't figured out how to get through mine.

Matt Sodnicar 2:02:12
Well, let us foster you for a little bit. Okay,

Christy 2:02:17
what's the snackies?

Matt Sodnicar 2:02:28
You're wonderful. Well, thank you. Yes. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai